1 00:00:08,257 --> 00:00:09,057 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:11,137 --> 00:00:14,377 Speaker 2: Join us in celebrating and incredible milestone as the beloved 3 00:00:14,457 --> 00:00:18,416 Speaker 2: Jesus Calling brand reaches fifty million lives impacted. As we 4 00:00:18,497 --> 00:00:21,576 Speaker 2: honor the legacy of author Sarah Young, we reflect on 5 00:00:21,616 --> 00:00:26,816 Speaker 2: the stories from celebrities, pastors, authors, actors, singers, athletes, scholars, 6 00:00:26,857 --> 00:00:30,377 Speaker 2: and everyday people who have been inspired by her devotional writings. 7 00:00:30,657 --> 00:00:32,857 Speaker 2: To join in the celebration and to hear some of 8 00:00:32,897 --> 00:00:35,336 Speaker 2: the stories of people whose faith journeys have been impacted 9 00:00:35,377 --> 00:00:37,817 Speaker 2: by all the writings of Sarah Young, head over to 10 00:00:37,897 --> 00:00:41,937 Speaker 2: Jesus Calling dot com. 11 00:00:42,497 --> 00:00:45,257 Speaker 1: Science has made it easier for me to believe in God, 12 00:00:45,336 --> 00:00:46,016 Speaker 1: not harder. 13 00:00:47,577 --> 00:00:50,577 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we hear 14 00:00:50,617 --> 00:00:53,376 Speaker 2: from doctor Michael Gen, a physicist who grew up in 15 00:00:53,417 --> 00:00:56,817 Speaker 2: East la earned his PhD from Cornell, taught at Harvard, 16 00:00:56,937 --> 00:01:00,617 Speaker 2: and spent fourteen years as the science editor for ABC News. 17 00:01:00,977 --> 00:01:04,337 Speaker 2: Doctor gn describes how decades of studying invisible forces in 18 00:01:04,337 --> 00:01:07,817 Speaker 2: the universe, basically the limits of what science can actually see, 19 00:01:08,057 --> 00:01:11,377 Speaker 2: ultimately led the self described atheist to the conclusion that 20 00:01:11,417 --> 00:01:15,617 Speaker 2: science makes the case for God stronger, not weaker. Later 21 00:01:15,657 --> 00:01:18,657 Speaker 2: in the episode, we hear from Chris Hodges founding pastor 22 00:01:18,737 --> 00:01:20,937 Speaker 2: of the Church of the Highlands, who opens up about 23 00:01:20,977 --> 00:01:23,737 Speaker 2: the grief, burnout, and panic attacks that brought him to 24 00:01:23,777 --> 00:01:26,137 Speaker 2: a breaking point after a decade of leading one of 25 00:01:26,177 --> 00:01:29,577 Speaker 2: the country's fastest growing churches, and the help he got 26 00:01:29,657 --> 00:01:32,777 Speaker 2: to find his way out. Let's start with Michael's story. 27 00:01:39,537 --> 00:01:43,217 Speaker 1: I'm doctor Michael Gien. I had this dream of becoming 28 00:01:43,257 --> 00:01:46,577 Speaker 1: a scientist, and that dream took me from the Mexican 29 00:01:46,657 --> 00:01:50,537 Speaker 1: bodio of East LA to UCLA and then Cornell, where 30 00:01:50,537 --> 00:01:53,417 Speaker 1: I earned a PhD in physics, math and astronomy. And 31 00:01:53,457 --> 00:01:56,737 Speaker 1: then I was fortunate enough to go from there to Harvard, 32 00:01:56,777 --> 00:02:00,377 Speaker 1: where I taught physics for about eight years. And in 33 00:02:00,457 --> 00:02:04,537 Speaker 1: between I became the science editor for ABC News and 34 00:02:04,577 --> 00:02:07,897 Speaker 1: I traveled the world covering all the major science stories 35 00:02:08,217 --> 00:02:16,217 Speaker 1: for fourteen years. So it's been quite a life. When 36 00:02:16,257 --> 00:02:19,817 Speaker 1: I was at second grader who was madly in love 37 00:02:19,857 --> 00:02:23,177 Speaker 1: with science, I felt, well, any self respecting would be 38 00:02:23,297 --> 00:02:27,977 Speaker 1: scientists should live by some pretty strict mottos. And one 39 00:02:28,017 --> 00:02:31,697 Speaker 1: of the mottos I adopted for myself was seeing is believing. 40 00:02:31,737 --> 00:02:33,697 Speaker 1: If I can't see it, I'm not going to believe it. 41 00:02:33,697 --> 00:02:37,257 Speaker 1: It's a very pragmatic motto, and I lived with that 42 00:02:37,297 --> 00:02:39,817 Speaker 1: motto and it served me well for many, many years. 43 00:02:40,057 --> 00:02:42,657 Speaker 1: I remember, I think it must have been around middle school. 44 00:02:43,057 --> 00:02:48,177 Speaker 1: I started teaching myself Einstein's Special Theory of relativity. And 45 00:02:48,457 --> 00:02:51,177 Speaker 1: what struck me about what Einstein was saying in that 46 00:02:51,257 --> 00:02:54,297 Speaker 1: theory is that there are hidden worlds in the universe, 47 00:02:54,617 --> 00:02:59,657 Speaker 1: hidden worlds, invisible worlds. That was a shock to me, because, 48 00:02:59,817 --> 00:03:01,937 Speaker 1: as I said, I was living by the motto seeing 49 00:03:02,057 --> 00:03:05,937 Speaker 1: is believing. So here is Einstein telling me, No, there 50 00:03:05,937 --> 00:03:09,497 Speaker 1: are actually worlds you can't see. They're called the light cone, 51 00:03:09,657 --> 00:03:13,337 Speaker 1: the elsewhere beyond the cosmic horizon. These are all very 52 00:03:13,377 --> 00:03:17,017 Speaker 1: special hidden worlds that we cannot see, and yet according 53 00:03:17,057 --> 00:03:20,737 Speaker 1: to the theory, they exist. That theory has been verified for 54 00:03:20,777 --> 00:03:24,337 Speaker 1: more than a century of experiments. When I was a 55 00:03:24,337 --> 00:03:27,497 Speaker 1: grad student of Cornell, and I learned that ninety five 56 00:03:27,657 --> 00:03:31,977 Speaker 1: percent of the observable universe, ninety five percent of the 57 00:03:31,977 --> 00:03:35,577 Speaker 1: observable universe is invisible to us. We can't see it. 58 00:03:35,577 --> 00:03:37,977 Speaker 1: It's in the form of dark matter and dark energy. 59 00:03:38,537 --> 00:03:43,017 Speaker 1: And beyond the observable universe there's an entire unobservable universe 60 00:03:43,857 --> 00:03:48,897 Speaker 1: that's one hundred percent invisible to us. So I literally realized, 61 00:03:49,417 --> 00:03:53,217 Speaker 1: as a grad student of Cornell, I'm surrounded by invisibility. 62 00:03:53,977 --> 00:03:57,737 Speaker 1: I am surrounded by an invisible reality, and there's just 63 00:03:57,777 --> 00:03:59,817 Speaker 1: no getting around it. So I knew then and there 64 00:03:59,857 --> 00:04:02,577 Speaker 1: I had to ditch my trust the old scene as 65 00:04:02,617 --> 00:04:06,457 Speaker 1: believing motto, and the question became, well, what motto do 66 00:04:06,537 --> 00:04:08,897 Speaker 1: I replace it with? And it really wasn't until many, 67 00:04:08,937 --> 00:04:12,697 Speaker 1: many years later that I realized I had actually upside 68 00:04:12,737 --> 00:04:16,177 Speaker 1: down all this time. It's not seen as believing, it's 69 00:04:16,217 --> 00:04:19,537 Speaker 1: believing a scene. When I was a grad student at Cornell, 70 00:04:19,617 --> 00:04:21,777 Speaker 1: I felt that I had hit the jackpot here. I 71 00:04:21,976 --> 00:04:25,096 Speaker 1: was becoming a scientist. That's what I had dreamed about 72 00:04:25,097 --> 00:04:27,856 Speaker 1: since I was in the second grade. And so I 73 00:04:27,936 --> 00:04:31,257 Speaker 1: spent twenty twenty one hours a day, seven days a week, 74 00:04:31,337 --> 00:04:33,736 Speaker 1: hold up in my basement lab. There were no windows 75 00:04:33,777 --> 00:04:35,177 Speaker 1: in the lab, so I didn't know if it was 76 00:04:35,257 --> 00:04:38,257 Speaker 1: day or night. I didn't care. I had no social life. 77 00:04:38,457 --> 00:04:42,057 Speaker 1: I barely ate. I put in three maybe four hours 78 00:04:42,137 --> 00:04:44,616 Speaker 1: tops of sleep, and then I just really wanted to 79 00:04:44,657 --> 00:04:48,416 Speaker 1: go back to that lab. Two maybe two three years 80 00:04:48,457 --> 00:04:52,537 Speaker 1: into my grad studies, I had already started having questions 81 00:04:52,537 --> 00:04:56,016 Speaker 1: that I felt science wasn't answering to my satisfaction. So 82 00:04:56,097 --> 00:05:00,097 Speaker 1: I had already explored other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, 83 00:05:00,176 --> 00:05:04,657 Speaker 1: transcendental meditation, Islam, Judaism, and so forth, and I found 84 00:05:04,697 --> 00:05:07,856 Speaker 1: them all very, very fascinating. So one day, this girl, 85 00:05:08,137 --> 00:05:11,897 Speaker 1: Laurel says to me, well, you know, you've explored all 86 00:05:11,897 --> 00:05:15,616 Speaker 1: these exotic religions. Have you ever read the Bible? And 87 00:05:15,657 --> 00:05:18,097 Speaker 1: I was kind of stopped cold because I said no. 88 00:05:18,416 --> 00:05:21,657 Speaker 1: For two reasons. Number One, I grew up hearing about 89 00:05:21,697 --> 00:05:23,897 Speaker 1: the Bible. It's very familiar to me, even though I've 90 00:05:23,936 --> 00:05:26,976 Speaker 1: never read it, so it's kind of been there, done that, 91 00:05:27,217 --> 00:05:29,176 Speaker 1: even though I had never been there or done that. 92 00:05:29,816 --> 00:05:33,657 Speaker 1: Familiarity breeds contempt, I think is the old expression. And second, 93 00:05:33,657 --> 00:05:35,976 Speaker 1: and more importantly, is that I told her. I said, 94 00:05:36,056 --> 00:05:38,296 Speaker 1: my impression is that people who read and believe the 95 00:05:38,337 --> 00:05:42,337 Speaker 1: Bible hate science. They've got a grudging in science. They 96 00:05:42,337 --> 00:05:44,537 Speaker 1: see it as the enemy. Well, science is my number 97 00:05:44,577 --> 00:05:46,376 Speaker 1: one love in life, so why would I want to 98 00:05:46,416 --> 00:05:48,976 Speaker 1: read this book? And then she said something that changed 99 00:05:48,976 --> 00:05:51,056 Speaker 1: my life forever. She said, well, you know what, I 100 00:05:51,097 --> 00:05:53,657 Speaker 1: have not read the Bible, either, but if you read 101 00:05:53,657 --> 00:05:57,176 Speaker 1: it I'll read it with you. I thought, well, I 102 00:05:57,217 --> 00:05:59,337 Speaker 1: really don't care about the Bible, but if I could 103 00:05:59,376 --> 00:06:02,697 Speaker 1: spend more time with this pretty girl, you know, this 104 00:06:02,777 --> 00:06:04,416 Speaker 1: is like a whole new experience for me. I said, 105 00:06:04,457 --> 00:06:06,897 Speaker 1: I'm in, and so it ended up taking us two 106 00:06:07,017 --> 00:06:10,016 Speaker 1: years to read the Bible from cover to cover. The 107 00:06:10,056 --> 00:06:13,137 Speaker 1: Old Testament really didn't impress me very much because it 108 00:06:13,176 --> 00:06:15,816 Speaker 1: was very logical. You know, eye for an eye, a 109 00:06:15,856 --> 00:06:18,296 Speaker 1: tooth for a tooth. God is angry at us, so 110 00:06:18,337 --> 00:06:21,216 Speaker 1: he punishes us and we mess up and he gets 111 00:06:21,217 --> 00:06:24,576 Speaker 1: angry again. It was all very kind of logical. But 112 00:06:24,657 --> 00:06:28,456 Speaker 1: the New Testament, Jesus in particular, struck me because of 113 00:06:28,496 --> 00:06:32,016 Speaker 1: the way he spoke the first shall be last. You 114 00:06:32,097 --> 00:06:34,816 Speaker 1: have to die in order to live. You should love 115 00:06:34,897 --> 00:06:38,736 Speaker 1: your enemies. This was not logical. This was turning logic 116 00:06:38,777 --> 00:06:39,537 Speaker 1: on its head. 117 00:06:39,736 --> 00:06:39,936 Speaker 3: Now. 118 00:06:39,976 --> 00:06:44,577 Speaker 1: I call it translogical reasoning. And the reason that made 119 00:06:44,577 --> 00:06:47,496 Speaker 1: an impression on me is because I was studying quantum 120 00:06:47,537 --> 00:06:50,097 Speaker 1: mechanics at the time, and this is the language of 121 00:06:50,176 --> 00:06:53,056 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, this is the language of modern science. It's 122 00:06:53,097 --> 00:06:58,296 Speaker 1: not logical, it's translogical. So I'm thinking, where did this 123 00:06:58,416 --> 00:07:02,217 Speaker 1: Jesus come from? He must have studied modern physics or something, 124 00:07:02,217 --> 00:07:04,976 Speaker 1: because he's speaking the language of modern science. Now I 125 00:07:05,017 --> 00:07:07,736 Speaker 1: didn't fall on my knees and immediately become a Christian. 126 00:07:07,777 --> 00:07:10,417 Speaker 1: I'm a hard headed intellectual. It takes more than that, 127 00:07:10,457 --> 00:07:12,297 Speaker 1: but it was enough to get the hook in me, 128 00:07:12,897 --> 00:07:15,977 Speaker 1: and as the decades. I was about two decades later 129 00:07:16,577 --> 00:07:19,337 Speaker 1: that I really became a Christian. I surrendered my life 130 00:07:19,417 --> 00:07:21,937 Speaker 1: to the Lord, and he is now my Lord and Savior. 131 00:07:23,177 --> 00:07:25,896 Speaker 1: It took Laurel and me two years to read the 132 00:07:25,897 --> 00:07:29,417 Speaker 1: Bible from cover to cover. But after that two years, 133 00:07:29,577 --> 00:07:32,097 Speaker 1: which really bonded us, we discovered we had a lot 134 00:07:32,137 --> 00:07:35,897 Speaker 1: more in common as well. It really wasn't until about 135 00:07:36,457 --> 00:07:39,456 Speaker 1: ten years later that I finally popped the question. She 136 00:07:39,537 --> 00:07:48,937 Speaker 1: has been with me through thick and through thin. When 137 00:07:49,297 --> 00:07:52,057 Speaker 1: we adopted our son and he was about four years old, 138 00:07:52,177 --> 00:07:54,617 Speaker 1: he asked a question at the dinner table that kind 139 00:07:54,657 --> 00:07:58,537 Speaker 1: of disarmed my wife, Laurel and me. He said, Daddy, 140 00:07:58,897 --> 00:08:02,737 Speaker 1: can you drive to Heaven? And I'm like, okay, Well, 141 00:08:02,777 --> 00:08:06,057 Speaker 1: from the mouth of babes right, many many years yars later, 142 00:08:06,217 --> 00:08:09,337 Speaker 1: I was thinking to myself, well, I'm a Christian. I 143 00:08:09,377 --> 00:08:11,617 Speaker 1: believe in the Bible. I believe that Heaven. 144 00:08:11,377 --> 00:08:12,417 Speaker 3: Is a real place. 145 00:08:12,617 --> 00:08:14,937 Speaker 1: If I didn't believe Heaven was a real place, how 146 00:08:14,937 --> 00:08:18,417 Speaker 1: can I call myself a Christian? And then question the 147 00:08:18,457 --> 00:08:21,017 Speaker 1: scientist me said, well, okay, if it's a real place, 148 00:08:21,177 --> 00:08:25,297 Speaker 1: where might it be? Does science help me understand where 149 00:08:25,737 --> 00:08:29,297 Speaker 1: this heaven that the Bible speaks of might be located? 150 00:08:30,057 --> 00:08:32,377 Speaker 1: And then I remembered something that I had learned early 151 00:08:32,457 --> 00:08:35,457 Speaker 1: on in my career as a scientist. In astronomy, we 152 00:08:35,537 --> 00:08:39,897 Speaker 1: make the distinction between the observable universe, but then beyond 153 00:08:40,057 --> 00:08:44,337 Speaker 1: that is an unobservable universe. And that dividing line between 154 00:08:44,417 --> 00:08:47,457 Speaker 1: the observable universe and the unobservable universe is what we 155 00:08:47,497 --> 00:08:50,897 Speaker 1: call the cosmic horizon. It's about two hundred and seventy 156 00:08:51,417 --> 00:08:56,937 Speaker 1: billion trillion miles away. So I started thinking, well, is 157 00:08:56,977 --> 00:09:02,137 Speaker 1: it conceivable that Heaven is located beyond this cosmic horizon? 158 00:09:02,217 --> 00:09:04,857 Speaker 1: Is it conceivable? Is it consistent with what the Bible 159 00:09:04,897 --> 00:09:07,657 Speaker 1: would say? And I found that far from there being 160 00:09:07,737 --> 00:09:11,977 Speaker 1: any contradictions, Actually, there were a lot of similarities between 161 00:09:12,377 --> 00:09:16,737 Speaker 1: how the Bible describes Heaven and how modern science describes 162 00:09:16,777 --> 00:09:21,737 Speaker 1: this invisible realm beyond the cosmic horizon, and so for 163 00:09:21,817 --> 00:09:25,737 Speaker 1: me what it did personally thinking about heaven this way, 164 00:09:26,257 --> 00:09:29,577 Speaker 1: it confirmed what my whole career has shown me, which 165 00:09:29,617 --> 00:09:34,697 Speaker 1: is that there is no fundamental contradiction between the biblical 166 00:09:34,737 --> 00:09:39,537 Speaker 1: worldview and the modern scientific worldview. It also tells me 167 00:09:39,577 --> 00:09:43,017 Speaker 1: something else, and that's this, there's no such thing as 168 00:09:43,017 --> 00:09:46,497 Speaker 1: a stupid question. Thinking back to my little boy asking Daddy, 169 00:09:46,777 --> 00:09:49,777 Speaker 1: can you drive to heaven? It's not a stupid question. 170 00:09:50,177 --> 00:09:52,897 Speaker 1: And it led me to this kind of very interesting 171 00:09:52,937 --> 00:09:57,777 Speaker 1: way of thinking about heaven in modern scientific terms, entirely 172 00:09:57,817 --> 00:10:02,217 Speaker 1: consistent with modern science, entirely consistent with the Bible's description 173 00:10:02,297 --> 00:10:08,017 Speaker 1: of heaven. You know, when I look back in my life, 174 00:10:08,337 --> 00:10:10,697 Speaker 1: I've always been a bit of a loaner. I've always 175 00:10:12,337 --> 00:10:14,217 Speaker 1: kind of marched to the beat of my own drum. 176 00:10:14,297 --> 00:10:16,817 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, my fellow students were into 177 00:10:16,817 --> 00:10:20,257 Speaker 1: the top ten music songs that are out there, the 178 00:10:20,337 --> 00:10:23,857 Speaker 1: latest cars, they were all into pop culture. I wasn't 179 00:10:23,897 --> 00:10:26,177 Speaker 1: into any of that. I was just into science. I 180 00:10:26,217 --> 00:10:29,177 Speaker 1: wanted to understand the universe. I wanted to understand our 181 00:10:29,217 --> 00:10:32,217 Speaker 1: place in the universe. Now that I'm grown up, I'm 182 00:10:32,257 --> 00:10:37,257 Speaker 1: still a scientist, phenomena devout Christian. I don't feel that lonely. 183 00:10:37,417 --> 00:10:41,137 Speaker 1: I'm finding that more and more scientists are very receptive 184 00:10:41,177 --> 00:10:44,097 Speaker 1: to the idea of God. When I go speaking on 185 00:10:44,177 --> 00:10:47,497 Speaker 1: college campuses, the kids line up and they keep me 186 00:10:47,617 --> 00:10:50,897 Speaker 1: up after midnight, asking me question after question. You can 187 00:10:51,017 --> 00:10:55,137 Speaker 1: sense the thirst they have. They want to know what's true, 188 00:10:55,177 --> 00:10:58,057 Speaker 1: they want to know what is reliable, what is believable, 189 00:10:58,777 --> 00:11:01,497 Speaker 1: and they're very open to the existence of God. My 190 00:11:01,617 --> 00:11:05,457 Speaker 1: faith is hard won. Nobody filled my head with anything. 191 00:11:05,657 --> 00:11:09,617 Speaker 1: I went out on a journey to see what's true 192 00:11:09,617 --> 00:11:12,257 Speaker 1: about the universe, about us and our place in it, 193 00:11:12,537 --> 00:11:15,697 Speaker 1: what's our destiny, what's the universe's destiny? And I have 194 00:11:15,777 --> 00:11:19,217 Speaker 1: come to these conclusions. Science has made it easier for 195 00:11:19,297 --> 00:11:22,457 Speaker 1: me to believe in God, not harder. I've grown accustomed 196 00:11:22,457 --> 00:11:25,777 Speaker 1: to dealing with invisible realities. It's the bread and butter 197 00:11:25,817 --> 00:11:29,057 Speaker 1: of modern science. The fact that God is invisible is 198 00:11:29,097 --> 00:11:32,457 Speaker 1: no big deal for me, because I see His fingerprints everywhere. 199 00:11:33,177 --> 00:11:36,897 Speaker 1: When all is said and done, science has helped my faith, 200 00:11:37,097 --> 00:11:40,537 Speaker 1: has bolstered my faith, has strengthened my faith in this 201 00:11:41,137 --> 00:11:44,817 Speaker 1: magnificent genius of an invisible God. 202 00:11:49,577 --> 00:11:53,377 Speaker 2: To learn more about Michael gn visit Michaelgn dot com 203 00:11:53,577 --> 00:11:55,777 Speaker 2: and be sure to check out his new documentary The 204 00:11:55,857 --> 00:11:59,497 Speaker 2: Invisible Everywhere Believing Is Seeing, also available for streaming on 205 00:11:59,537 --> 00:12:03,257 Speaker 2: his website. Stay tuned to Chris Hodge's story after a 206 00:12:03,257 --> 00:12:15,097 Speaker 2: brief message. These uncertain times bring anxiety and fear, but 207 00:12:15,217 --> 00:12:18,457 Speaker 2: Jesus Listens Prayers for Every Season gives you daily prayers 208 00:12:18,457 --> 00:12:23,337 Speaker 2: of comfort with seasonally inspired illustrations. This beautiful book includes 209 00:12:23,377 --> 00:12:26,737 Speaker 2: prayers that speak to your situation, whether it's a time 210 00:12:26,737 --> 00:12:30,657 Speaker 2: of stress or strength. Look for Jesus Listens Prayers for 211 00:12:30,737 --> 00:12:40,577 Speaker 2: Every Season wherever you buy books. Our next guest is 212 00:12:40,657 --> 00:12:43,497 Speaker 2: Chris Hodges, founding pastor of Church of the Highlands and 213 00:12:43,657 --> 00:12:46,457 Speaker 2: best selling author who, after years of pushing through grief 214 00:12:46,537 --> 00:12:49,657 Speaker 2: and burnout on adrenaline alone, hit a wall and had 215 00:12:49,657 --> 00:12:51,657 Speaker 2: to completely relearn how he was living. 216 00:12:53,257 --> 00:12:56,497 Speaker 3: I'm Chris Hodges and I'm the founding pastor of Church 217 00:12:56,577 --> 00:13:00,497 Speaker 3: of the Highlands in Birmingham. It's a multi site church 218 00:13:00,937 --> 00:13:06,617 Speaker 3: that has twenty six locations across Alabama and Georgia, and 219 00:13:06,657 --> 00:13:10,097 Speaker 3: we're also in all twenty eight of Alabama's Department of 220 00:13:10,137 --> 00:13:14,777 Speaker 3: Corrections facilities every Sunday, actually between Sundays too, and so 221 00:13:14,977 --> 00:13:18,217 Speaker 3: a year ago after twenty four years of founding and 222 00:13:18,297 --> 00:13:21,257 Speaker 3: leading the church, I handed it to the next generation 223 00:13:21,737 --> 00:13:25,017 Speaker 3: to lead. So now I'm founding pastor, not lead pastor, 224 00:13:25,617 --> 00:13:31,017 Speaker 3: and I'm leading our university. We started a Christian university 225 00:13:31,337 --> 00:13:35,137 Speaker 3: in twenty eleven with the purpose of placing one hundred 226 00:13:35,137 --> 00:13:37,497 Speaker 3: percent of our graduates in full time ministry. So it's 227 00:13:37,537 --> 00:13:42,617 Speaker 3: a ministry leadership academy and I'm very very passionate about 228 00:13:42,617 --> 00:13:45,657 Speaker 3: it and having the time of my life leading that 229 00:13:45,737 --> 00:13:51,737 Speaker 3: great school. After ten years of our church, my dad, 230 00:13:51,857 --> 00:13:53,977 Speaker 3: who was best man of my wedding, went to be 231 00:13:54,057 --> 00:13:56,417 Speaker 3: with the Lord in that same year. I mean I 232 00:13:56,457 --> 00:13:58,657 Speaker 3: loved with all my heart. And then my father in law, 233 00:13:59,177 --> 00:14:02,337 Speaker 3: who probably was my best friend, my wife's dad, and 234 00:14:02,377 --> 00:14:05,697 Speaker 3: he passed away very very young. Same time. I was 235 00:14:05,697 --> 00:14:09,297 Speaker 3: going through grief and burnout at the same time. And 236 00:14:09,337 --> 00:14:13,097 Speaker 3: it was actually a trip to Israel and a sabbatical 237 00:14:13,137 --> 00:14:16,537 Speaker 3: that kind of pulled me out of that season. And 238 00:14:16,577 --> 00:14:19,097 Speaker 3: it was then that I realized that it's not schedule, 239 00:14:19,097 --> 00:14:22,457 Speaker 3: it is foundational. That I was actually over using my 240 00:14:22,537 --> 00:14:26,417 Speaker 3: own adrenaline. I was just pushing through moments that I 241 00:14:26,457 --> 00:14:28,817 Speaker 3: should be resting. That had been about twenty eight years 242 00:14:28,857 --> 00:14:31,777 Speaker 3: of ministry at that time as an associate and as 243 00:14:31,777 --> 00:14:35,377 Speaker 3: a lead pastor, that I'd been violating the Sabbath my 244 00:14:35,457 --> 00:14:40,017 Speaker 3: whole life. I'd never really truly learned how to sabbath correctly, 245 00:14:40,617 --> 00:14:44,057 Speaker 3: and got a great revelation of really how to build 246 00:14:44,137 --> 00:14:49,177 Speaker 3: some foundational things in my life that supports schedules and 247 00:14:49,297 --> 00:14:52,457 Speaker 3: supports lifestyle. And that was back in twenty eleven. In 248 00:14:52,497 --> 00:14:54,977 Speaker 3: my life's never been the same since that moment. I 249 00:14:54,977 --> 00:14:58,337 Speaker 3: wrote a book based off of a series of panic 250 00:14:58,377 --> 00:15:01,537 Speaker 3: attacks and depression that I went through. I like in 251 00:15:01,817 --> 00:15:06,617 Speaker 3: the process or the feelings of depression and burnout as 252 00:15:06,697 --> 00:15:08,297 Speaker 3: kind of being in a cave, like you know there's 253 00:15:08,337 --> 00:15:09,617 Speaker 3: a way out, but you don't know where it is, 254 00:15:09,657 --> 00:15:12,457 Speaker 3: and it's dark and it's confusing. I think most people 255 00:15:12,617 --> 00:15:17,177 Speaker 3: think about burnout as being too busy, or like it's 256 00:15:17,257 --> 00:15:19,777 Speaker 3: totally just a schedule issue. I don't think it is. 257 00:15:19,937 --> 00:15:22,297 Speaker 3: I think it's something much deeper than that. In fact, 258 00:15:22,457 --> 00:15:23,897 Speaker 3: a lot of times what we do to try to 259 00:15:23,897 --> 00:15:26,617 Speaker 3: solve our burnout is going vacation, and sometimes the vacation 260 00:15:27,177 --> 00:15:30,097 Speaker 3: ends up being busier than our schedules. And I think 261 00:15:30,137 --> 00:15:33,457 Speaker 3: it's because of our approach to how we're using our time, 262 00:15:33,617 --> 00:15:37,017 Speaker 3: not the amount of time. And so it's the condition 263 00:15:37,097 --> 00:15:39,457 Speaker 3: of your soul. It's what's going on on the inside 264 00:15:39,897 --> 00:15:43,657 Speaker 3: of your soul in the activities that you're doing. That's 265 00:15:43,697 --> 00:15:46,337 Speaker 3: determining whether it's burning you out or not. And there 266 00:15:46,337 --> 00:15:51,777 Speaker 3: are so many things that can contribute to that. They 267 00:15:51,817 --> 00:15:55,737 Speaker 3: say there's about seven to nine basic causes of depression. 268 00:15:56,257 --> 00:16:00,217 Speaker 3: In First Kings eighteen and nineteen, Elijah did about six 269 00:16:00,297 --> 00:16:04,457 Speaker 3: of them. Depression could some of the causes are biological. 270 00:16:06,297 --> 00:16:08,177 Speaker 3: That is absolutely true. I have a son actually is 271 00:16:08,217 --> 00:16:12,377 Speaker 3: on the autism spectrum. He needs medication to not freak out. 272 00:16:12,697 --> 00:16:14,737 Speaker 3: He just needs that and it helps him so much. 273 00:16:14,777 --> 00:16:17,097 Speaker 3: We've watched it. I was actually against it at first. 274 00:16:17,137 --> 00:16:18,817 Speaker 3: I was thinking, you know, well, we're just gonna pray, 275 00:16:18,977 --> 00:16:20,857 Speaker 3: and I do believe in prayer, and I believe that 276 00:16:20,897 --> 00:16:23,817 Speaker 3: God can touch our souls. But the fact is he 277 00:16:23,897 --> 00:16:27,497 Speaker 3: had something genetic that just needed a little medication, had 278 00:16:27,537 --> 00:16:29,537 Speaker 3: no side effects, and it helped him so much. So 279 00:16:29,697 --> 00:16:32,297 Speaker 3: I'm not against that. But I think seven out of 280 00:16:32,297 --> 00:16:37,297 Speaker 3: the nine basic causes of depression are self inflicted. So 281 00:16:37,337 --> 00:16:40,777 Speaker 3: they're how we live our lives. I mean, the sedentary 282 00:16:40,897 --> 00:16:42,617 Speaker 3: nature of our lives right now, like we're not even 283 00:16:42,617 --> 00:16:46,377 Speaker 3: getting enough sun, we're sitting still too much, we're not 284 00:16:46,417 --> 00:16:51,217 Speaker 3: getting enough sleep. There lifestyle related. There's so many different causes. 285 00:16:51,257 --> 00:16:54,777 Speaker 3: Elijah did many of them, ruminating as one of them. 286 00:16:55,257 --> 00:16:58,297 Speaker 3: It's taking your crisis, whatever it is that's going on, 287 00:16:58,377 --> 00:17:02,457 Speaker 3: and then heightening it by going over and over and over. 288 00:17:02,657 --> 00:17:05,337 Speaker 3: So it's not saying your distress is it real, it's 289 00:17:05,377 --> 00:17:07,296 Speaker 3: just we rebring it to a new level because we 290 00:17:07,337 --> 00:17:10,497 Speaker 3: just sat there and we ruminated. That's what the use 291 00:17:10,617 --> 00:17:13,097 Speaker 3: of the word that psychologists use, and what ruminating means 292 00:17:13,217 --> 00:17:15,456 Speaker 3: is you chew it, swallow it, but then you regurgitate it, 293 00:17:15,497 --> 00:17:18,017 Speaker 3: you bring it back up, and then you swallow it 294 00:17:18,177 --> 00:17:20,097 Speaker 3: and you bring it back up. That's what cows do. 295 00:17:20,137 --> 00:17:22,897 Speaker 3: They ruminate, and every time you bring it back up, 296 00:17:22,897 --> 00:17:26,417 Speaker 3: it doesn't come back up better. It comes back up grosser. 297 00:17:27,017 --> 00:17:29,217 Speaker 3: And so do our thoughts. Our thoughts, you know, when 298 00:17:29,257 --> 00:17:32,057 Speaker 3: we process people of the process that's a popular word now, 299 00:17:32,217 --> 00:17:35,216 Speaker 3: which is great. But when you over process, you actually 300 00:17:35,257 --> 00:17:38,097 Speaker 3: regurgitate something, it comes back up worse. And that's what 301 00:17:38,097 --> 00:17:48,657 Speaker 3: people do. God in chapter nineteen, leads Elijah through a 302 00:17:48,737 --> 00:17:52,017 Speaker 3: five step healing process for depression and I'm not saying 303 00:17:51,977 --> 00:17:53,657 Speaker 3: that this will solve everything, but I'm just standing that 304 00:17:53,697 --> 00:17:56,217 Speaker 3: they're huge. And the first one was he just got 305 00:17:56,257 --> 00:17:59,737 Speaker 3: some rest. Before God even touched Elijah's life, he said, 306 00:17:59,857 --> 00:18:02,817 Speaker 3: eat something, sleep, Okay, eat some more, Okay, sleep again. 307 00:18:03,577 --> 00:18:05,097 Speaker 3: He just said, man, dude, you got to slow down 308 00:18:05,137 --> 00:18:07,257 Speaker 3: a little bit. And then he had this moment, you know, 309 00:18:07,297 --> 00:18:09,977 Speaker 3: this earth wind and fire moment where God spoke to 310 00:18:10,057 --> 00:18:11,857 Speaker 3: him in this still small voice, And it's just we've 311 00:18:11,897 --> 00:18:13,857 Speaker 3: got to learn how to cultivate the presence of God 312 00:18:13,897 --> 00:18:16,897 Speaker 3: back in our life. It's so important. Many people only 313 00:18:16,977 --> 00:18:19,017 Speaker 3: know God in the dynamic. They don't know him in 314 00:18:19,057 --> 00:18:22,137 Speaker 3: the intimate. We have to have those intimate moments. God 315 00:18:22,177 --> 00:18:25,257 Speaker 3: gave Elijah I new assignment. He actually said, hey, I 316 00:18:25,337 --> 00:18:27,377 Speaker 3: need you to go to this king and this king 317 00:18:27,497 --> 00:18:30,456 Speaker 3: and anoint this person. And which, by the way, was 318 00:18:30,537 --> 00:18:34,017 Speaker 3: what healed my depression. Was vision when I had a 319 00:18:34,017 --> 00:18:37,177 Speaker 3: new assignment and a fresh purpose for life. So many 320 00:18:37,177 --> 00:18:39,857 Speaker 3: people are living without that sense of purpose. But when 321 00:18:39,897 --> 00:18:42,217 Speaker 3: you have that, man, I'm just telling you, joy flooded 322 00:18:42,297 --> 00:18:44,497 Speaker 3: my heart. The moment I knew God had something for me. 323 00:18:44,537 --> 00:18:47,497 Speaker 3: He wanted me to do the word dream and the 324 00:18:47,497 --> 00:18:50,456 Speaker 3: word health are so close in the Hebrew that the 325 00:18:50,497 --> 00:18:53,297 Speaker 3: translators sometimes don't even know which word to use. That 326 00:18:53,537 --> 00:18:55,857 Speaker 3: dreaming is one of the healthiest things you can do, 327 00:18:56,137 --> 00:18:59,337 Speaker 3: getting a dream from God. And then the last one 328 00:18:59,857 --> 00:19:02,857 Speaker 3: was that he partnered with Elisha because one of the 329 00:19:02,897 --> 00:19:06,657 Speaker 3: mistakes of Elijah made and is the cause of depression, 330 00:19:06,857 --> 00:19:09,857 Speaker 3: is isolation. You know, we have social media, but we're 331 00:19:09,897 --> 00:19:15,377 Speaker 3: the most disconnected generation in history. And really the superpower 332 00:19:15,417 --> 00:19:18,577 Speaker 3: of humans was our ability to band together and to 333 00:19:18,577 --> 00:19:21,017 Speaker 3: be close and draw strength from each other and do 334 00:19:21,137 --> 00:19:24,577 Speaker 3: things together, two things you never see again. In Elijah's life, 335 00:19:24,617 --> 00:19:27,137 Speaker 3: he never got depressed again, and it was never alone again. 336 00:19:27,617 --> 00:19:30,057 Speaker 3: I called the bucket this principle, and that is if 337 00:19:30,097 --> 00:19:33,297 Speaker 3: you want to start living, start dreaming. That one of 338 00:19:33,337 --> 00:19:37,657 Speaker 3: the healthiest things you can do is dream dreams Acts 339 00:19:37,737 --> 00:19:40,097 Speaker 3: Chapter two in the Last Days, God's going to pour 340 00:19:40,137 --> 00:19:43,817 Speaker 3: out his spirit. He tells us You're going to have visions, 341 00:19:43,937 --> 00:19:46,976 Speaker 3: dreams and prophecy. And prophecy means I'm looking into the future. 342 00:19:47,017 --> 00:19:49,936 Speaker 3: God's showing me what is to come. I think that 343 00:19:50,017 --> 00:19:53,137 Speaker 3: lists the spirit like nothing else. I think people can 344 00:19:53,257 --> 00:19:56,377 Speaker 3: come out of their burnout conditions by their closeness with 345 00:19:56,497 --> 00:20:00,657 Speaker 3: the Lord by renewing their sense of purpose and hope. 346 00:20:01,257 --> 00:20:03,857 Speaker 3: When I went through my first bout of depression, it 347 00:20:03,897 --> 00:20:06,137 Speaker 3: was actually vision that brought me out. It was when 348 00:20:06,177 --> 00:20:08,977 Speaker 3: God gave me a fresh dream and a fresh passion 349 00:20:09,697 --> 00:20:11,697 Speaker 3: for something I felt like was an assignment from Him. 350 00:20:11,777 --> 00:20:14,697 Speaker 3: And I can't tell you how much hope flooded my heart, 351 00:20:14,777 --> 00:20:18,216 Speaker 3: you know when that happened. I'm a very kind of 352 00:20:18,297 --> 00:20:21,697 Speaker 3: intentional and very disciplined kind of person by nature. I've 353 00:20:21,697 --> 00:20:24,657 Speaker 3: almost never had a morning that I didn't spend it 354 00:20:24,697 --> 00:20:29,177 Speaker 3: with God. I'm very, very intentional, and I've always known 355 00:20:29,217 --> 00:20:36,456 Speaker 3: it as a sweet, intimate, powerful, personal refreshing time. I 356 00:20:36,537 --> 00:20:41,257 Speaker 3: love my time with God. I'm reading from Jesus Listens 357 00:20:41,937 --> 00:20:46,696 Speaker 3: May twenty second. Jesus my Rock. I rejoice in my 358 00:20:46,777 --> 00:20:50,337 Speaker 3: dependence on You. I've discovered that this is a place 359 00:20:50,337 --> 00:20:53,417 Speaker 3: of wonderful security. I found out the hard way that 360 00:20:53,497 --> 00:20:58,257 Speaker 3: depending on myself, others, or circumstances was like building my 361 00:20:58,337 --> 00:21:02,417 Speaker 3: life on a foundation of sand. When storms came, I 362 00:21:02,497 --> 00:21:07,057 Speaker 3: realized how flimsy my foundation was. It was totally inadequate 363 00:21:07,097 --> 00:21:10,297 Speaker 3: to support me. Now I'm seeking to build my life 364 00:21:10,337 --> 00:21:14,017 Speaker 3: on the rock, a foundation that is more than sufficient 365 00:21:14,057 --> 00:21:17,417 Speaker 3: to support me during life storms. Lord, help me to 366 00:21:17,457 --> 00:21:21,617 Speaker 3: depend on you not only in stormy circumstances, but also 367 00:21:21,657 --> 00:21:24,216 Speaker 3: when the sky is clear and my life is calm. 368 00:21:24,577 --> 00:21:28,216 Speaker 3: This is a daily discipline preparing me for whatever lies ahead. 369 00:21:28,777 --> 00:21:31,256 Speaker 3: I found that it's also a source of great joy. 370 00:21:31,897 --> 00:21:35,497 Speaker 3: Relying on You involves staying in communication with You, an 371 00:21:35,537 --> 00:21:40,817 Speaker 3: extraordinary privilege. This rich blessing provides me with strength, encouragement, 372 00:21:40,977 --> 00:21:43,817 Speaker 3: and guidance. When I stay in touch with You, I 373 00:21:43,857 --> 00:21:46,897 Speaker 3: can cope with difficulties because I know I'm not alone. 374 00:21:47,497 --> 00:21:49,936 Speaker 3: As I walk in the light of your presence, you 375 00:21:49,977 --> 00:21:52,777 Speaker 3: empower me to rejoice in your name all day long. 376 00:21:53,497 --> 00:21:56,977 Speaker 3: Depending on You is a joyful, blessed way to live 377 00:21:57,657 --> 00:21:58,817 Speaker 3: in your joyous name. 378 00:22:01,137 --> 00:22:04,217 Speaker 2: To learn more about Chris Hodges, visit Church ofth Highlands 379 00:22:04,257 --> 00:22:07,537 Speaker 2: dot com. Sure to check out his new book, Legacy 380 00:22:07,617 --> 00:22:11,617 Speaker 2: Letters Timeless Principles I Learned, Lived and Leave Behind at 381 00:22:11,657 --> 00:22:14,377 Speaker 2: your favorite retailer. If you'd like to hear more stories 382 00:22:14,377 --> 00:22:17,537 Speaker 2: about navigating burnout or depression, check out our interview with 383 00:22:17,617 --> 00:22:22,617 Speaker 2: Nathan Davis Junior. Next time on the Jesus Calling podcast, 384 00:22:22,697 --> 00:22:27,377 Speaker 2: we'll hear from ESPN personality and Paralympic swimmer Victoria Arlen, 385 00:22:27,657 --> 00:22:30,496 Speaker 2: who at eleven years old, was locked inside her body 386 00:22:30,537 --> 00:22:34,177 Speaker 2: for four years, fully conscious but unable to communicate, and 387 00:22:34,257 --> 00:22:37,456 Speaker 2: how her miraculous recovery led to an even harder battle 388 00:22:37,497 --> 00:22:39,137 Speaker 2: with bullying and mental health. 389 00:22:40,657 --> 00:22:45,297 Speaker 4: I truly don't know if there's anything scarier than, you know, 390 00:22:45,657 --> 00:22:48,577 Speaker 4: waking up one day and realizing, you know, you can 391 00:22:48,617 --> 00:22:51,617 Speaker 4: see and hear, but everyone's talking over you and doesn't 392 00:22:51,657 --> 00:22:55,097 Speaker 4: know that you're in there, especially when doctors, you know, 393 00:22:55,217 --> 00:22:58,697 Speaker 4: behind my parents back, were saying, can you believe this 394 00:22:58,777 --> 00:23:00,537 Speaker 4: kid's parents think she's gonna make it? 395 00:23:00,577 --> 00:23:07,657 Speaker 2: This kid's a goner. Thanks for listening to the Jesus 396 00:23:07,657 --> 00:23:10,977 Speaker 2: Calling Stories of Faith podcast on the Life Audio Network. 397 00:23:11,657 --> 00:23:14,177 Speaker 2: Every week will bring you stories from people who share 398 00:23:14,177 --> 00:23:17,417 Speaker 2: their journeys of faith and how prayer and a relationship 399 00:23:17,457 --> 00:23:20,976 Speaker 2: with God transformed their lives. Be sure to follow us 400 00:23:21,017 --> 00:23:25,177 Speaker 2: on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 401 00:23:25,697 --> 00:23:28,257 Speaker 2: and leave us a review so others can be inspired 402 00:23:28,257 --> 00:23:31,936 Speaker 2: weekly by these stories of faith. Finally, you can find 403 00:23:32,017 --> 00:23:35,897 Speaker 2: encouragement resources and more on the Jesus Calling website at 404 00:23:35,977 --> 00:23:38,137 Speaker 2: Jesus Calling dot com.