1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: They told you China was funding Iran, But that's not 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: the whole story, not by a long shot. China didn't 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: just write the checks. They supplied the drones. They hated 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: over the microchips that killed six Americans, both on US 5 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: soil and overseas. Gordon Scheng has the details, he's got 6 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: the evidence that he's naming names. You've got to see this. 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: Why hasn't China done anything since the military operation started 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: in Iran? 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 2: Because from a military point of view, China is not 10 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: able to oppose the United States. When the United States 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: exerts and uses force and is determined, China has to 12 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: withdraw and stand on the sidelines. But the broader question is, 13 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: you know, we didn't need to do this. You know, 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 2: there wouldn't have been a war in the Middle East 15 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 2: over Iran if China had not supplied Iran with all 16 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: the components for a nuclear weapons program, for instance, and 17 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: we know that China has supplied a substantial portion of 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 2: Iran's weapons. So for instance, those supersonic anti ship crews 19 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: missiles that are ron fired at the Abraham Lincoln are 20 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: a craft carrier. Those are Chinese, and that those drones, 21 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: those drones the shells and the components, including micro chips. 22 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: They come from China, which means that China directly participated 23 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: in the killing of six American service members on March 24 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 2: first in Kuwait. 25 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: It is Gordon Chang. The new book is called Plan 26 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: a Red Go to Gordon g Chang over on X. 27 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: Strictly speaking, Gordon, Are they friends? Are Iran and China friends? 28 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: Because I think they would be diametrically opposed, China being 29 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: in more agnostic or atheist country and Iran's certainly a 30 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: nutsjob theocracy. So are they friendly or are they Is this 31 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: a financial and geographical sort of coalition. 32 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: A marriage of convenience, Yes it is. But the point 33 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: here is that it doesn't really matter whether they are 34 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: going to be friends forever. They're not. But the point 35 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: is in the here and now, which is what concerns us. 36 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 2: They are friends now. China's leaders have this notion that 37 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: China's the world's only sovereign state that's TNCA are all 38 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: under heaven, And of course the Iranian theocracy believes in 39 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: a worldwide caliphate. So those two visions are completely inconsistent 40 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: with each other. But they've been friendly over the course 41 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: of decades. And China has made Iran the threat that 42 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: it is. I mean, we wouldn't be worried about Iran 43 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: today if it weren't for the Chinese support, weapons support, 44 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: diplomatic support, propaganda support, everything across the board except for 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: combat troops. 46 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: It's sort of like Shia and Sudi Muslims get along 47 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: now until they get rid of the rest of us, 48 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: then they can kill each other. 49 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 2: Something like that. Yes, and this is also true of 50 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: China and Russia. You know, Russia. Putin wants to expand 51 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: the Russian Empire at its greatest extent and basically takeover neighbors. 52 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: And that, of course is inconsistent with this TNCA notion. 53 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: But it doesn't really matter. You know. You hear a 54 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: lot of very smart people in Washington and New York say, oh, 55 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 2: you know, Moscow and Beijing they won't be enduring friends. Well, yeah, 56 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 2: that's right, but it's completely irrelevant because I'm not worried 57 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: about China and Russia in the twenty sixties. I'm worried 58 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: about China and Russia now. 59 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: It is Gordon Chang. Gordon g Chang over on x 60 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: go get his book called Plan Red. I appreciate the 61 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: time and the excess. Is China helping Iran with logistics? 62 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: Are they helping them with information and intelligence? I know 63 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: that that was pooplued by this administration saying well, if 64 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: they are, they're not very good at it because they're 65 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: not doing anything. But are they, in your belief, actively helping. 66 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: Oh, of course. So for instance, that large Chinese intelligence 67 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: collection ship just off of Iran, I'm sure that's supplying 68 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: real time intel to the Iranians. And you know, before 69 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: the war, there was a private Chinese company, maser Vision, 70 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: which was supplying to the world the location of US 71 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: military assets along with the coordinates. So yes, that's very 72 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: much what we know, and I'm sure there's a lot 73 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: that we don't know. So we need to call that 74 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: out in public because if we don't, the Chinese will 75 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: have think that they can help around with impunity. 76 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: Is there some reason China would want unrest in the 77 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: Middle East? Does China have a problem with Israel specifically? 78 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: Is it just about them expanding, you know, the belief 79 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: that they should control the entire world. If I can 80 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: keep this enopheovile, then I can maybe control it easier, 81 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: because I think everybody else wants peace in the Middle East. 82 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Seeson thing is really interesting because I think 83 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: he's taken two pages out of his heroes, mal Zadong's playbook. 84 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: One of them is to encircle the cities from the countryside, 85 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: which I think that he believes that Ukraine, North Africa, 86 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: you know, all the rest of the world that's countryside 87 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: and where the city. But also mald believed in chaos. 88 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: He believed that chaos would lead to worldwide Chinese rule. 89 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: And so I think Cjmpe looks at the disruption of 90 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: societies has really weigh stations or intermediate steps to his 91 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: complete control of humanity. So here's a guy who believes 92 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: that just killing other people is really good for Chinese 93 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 2: foreign policy. 94 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: Gatestone Institute's senior fellow it is Gordon Chang. Gordon g. 95 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: Chang over on ex Goo and following right now. He's 96 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: a great follow the stuff that you post. I learned 97 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: so much from every day, and I appreciate that. Let's 98 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: talk about the strait of her moves. The strait of 99 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 1: her moves being closed doesn't help China, that actually hurts China. 100 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: So what is their position on that? 101 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. First of all, Iran has 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 2: allowed Chinese ships or ships bound for China carrying oil. 103 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 2: They've allowed that through the strait, and so China gets 104 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 2: an enormous competitive advantage from that. Also, Iran about a 105 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 2: week ago, announced that it was going to allow the 106 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: transit of ships whose cargoes were paid for in rem 107 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 2: and b the Chinese currency. Okay, so that certainly helps Chin, 108 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: but ultimately it I think undermines China's interest in the 109 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: world because China right now, it's only help for economic 110 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: growth is more exports, and what's happening in the Middle 111 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: East is helping to deglobalize the world. So ultimately this 112 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: is not good for China. 113 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: Does the US have any pressure it can put on 114 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: China to somehow open that pathway for all ships and 115 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: not just Theirs. I would imagine we have economic leverage, 116 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: but anything else. 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: Well, we have enormous amount of leverage over China, which 118 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: is increasingly fragile right now. But the one thing President 119 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,679 Speaker 2: Trump should do is he should just close the strait. 120 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: I mean, the Iranians have closed the straight to our 121 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: ships and the ships of our friends and partners and allies. 122 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: But we have not stopped Iran ships or China ships 123 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: from going through the Strait. If we want to put 124 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: pressure on the Chinese to help us, well, you just 125 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: can't be nice to them and plead to them, which 126 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: is basically what this and previous administrations have been doing. 127 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: What you need to do in this case is closed 128 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: the straight and really bottle up the Chinese and say, look, 129 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: we want a quick end to this. Otherwise, Joe, this 130 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: is going to go on for a very long time. 131 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: The book is called Plan Red, Go and get it. 132 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: It's Gordon g. Chang over on exits. Gordon Chang really 133 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: appreciate having you on. When it comes to China and oil, 134 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: I've never understood this. I'm just doing I guess I'm 135 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: not smart enough. When it comes to the geography of China. 136 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: They've got all these precious metals, all these minerals that 137 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: are needed for batteries and everything else. They've got no 138 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: oil at all in China. They are reliant on the 139 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: rest of the globe to get the energy that most 140 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: of us use. 141 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: Well, they have their own oil, and they've got a 142 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: lot of other sources of energy, and they've got whatever 143 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: they can buy from Russia. But China, nonetheless is the 144 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: world's largest oil importer. It gets six point six percent 145 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: of its total energy, not just oil, but it's total 146 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: energy through the Strait. It gets maybe somewhere between forty 147 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: five and fifty of its imported oil through the Strait. 148 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: Those numbers are actually pretty big. 149 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: Did did the president going in and getting Maduro in 150 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: Venezuela and shutting down the ability to export that oil 151 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: to places like China? And I don't know if that 152 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Ron was getting oil probably next that can't refine it, 153 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: but know that China was getting a ton of it, 154 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: ninety percent of what was coming out of Venezuela. How 155 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: much did that hurt China when the President did that? 156 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: It hurt China a lot. And even if China can 157 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: biled by Venezuelan oil in the future, they're not going 158 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 2: to be able to get it at the big discounts 159 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: that Maduro and Chavez before him were providing the Chinese. 160 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: And that means that China's outstanding loan balance because Venezuela 161 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 2: owes we don't know exactly how much, maybe twelve, maybe 162 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: twenty billion dollars left over from their initial sixty five 163 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: billion dollar debt. That means that there's really no way 164 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 2: that Venezuela can pay back China. So there's a lot 165 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: of reasons why China got hurt when we extracted Maduro 166 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: and his wife on January three. 167 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: When that relationship was at its height between China and 168 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: Iran was involved, Cuba was involved over in Venezuela when 169 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: all that was going on. Was that really about oil? 170 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: I know that a big part of it was obviously 171 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: you just explained the percentages that they get, or was 172 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: that about China somehow infiltrating the Western hemisphere? 173 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: It was all the above and mentioned encircling the cities 174 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: from the countryside. Well, that's part of China's strategy in 175 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: Venezuela and Cuba and other places. And China ended up 176 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,599 Speaker 2: being far more influential than we were in our western hemisphere. 177 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: So what Trump did was he disrupted those relationships, and 178 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: he showed not just Venezuela and Cuba, but the rest 179 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: of the region as well that the US was not 180 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: going to put up with Chinese troublemaking in close to 181 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: American borders. 182 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: Did China and its leaders just love When Obama was 183 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: in office, And here's what I mean. Obama would say 184 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: something stupid like We're not going to go and drill 185 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: in the outer county the out of continent's shelf. And 186 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: then China said, oh, that's cool because cub and I 187 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: will do it off the coast of Cuba, which is 188 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: ninety miles away from Florida. We'll go and get the 189 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: resources that God gave you because you don't want them. 190 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: So he Chin to just love when he was in office. 191 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: Unbalanced And this is a really complex question you asked, 192 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 2: but unbalanced. I think they loved Obama. And one of 193 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 2: the reasons is that Obama bought into this Clinton notion 194 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 2: of managed to climb. And so this is George W. Bush, 195 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: this was Biden, you know, Republican and democratic foreign policy establishments. 196 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: You know. Trump came in and said, look, I'm not 197 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: buying it. Now. There are things that Trump does that 198 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: Beijing loves. But Unbalanced, I think Beijing is really really 199 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: afraid of President Trump because he's unpredictable. He's willing to 200 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: take steps that the Chinese would not be able to counter, 201 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: and so I think that they're apoplectic right now. And 202 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: that's even true. That's true, even though there are certain 203 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: things that Trump does which actually helped China But on balance, 204 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: I think that they really are afraid of Trump. 205 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: What does he do that helps them? 206 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: Trump has disrupted the Atlantic Alliance and we need our 207 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: partners in Europe. Uh, and that's not good, you know. 208 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: So I don't mean to interrupt, but when you say 209 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: Atlantic Alliance, you mean NATO. Right. So, so with him 210 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: saying pay more, with him saying why are we protecting 211 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: you if you're not gonna if you're not going to 212 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: give some more money, When he says things like why 213 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: aren't you helping me open the strait of her moves? 214 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: China likes that. 215 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, those are things that you know. Is 216 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: Trump is really good. He's getting NATO countries to spend more. 217 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 2: But the other thing, though, is that he's royaled those 218 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: relationships with for instance, not taking war off the table 219 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: with Denmark, which isn't good. Now I'll just give you 220 00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: an example with Canada. Trump gets a lot of it 221 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: for raising national security issues and threats that the Canadian 222 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 2: government has allowed to fester north of our border. Previous 223 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: American presidents wouldn't do it. But Trump has pushed Ottawa 224 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: in very close to China. And that's not good because 225 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: we've got this long border, and we do not need 226 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: any more dangerous elements in Canada threatening US. So Trump 227 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: needs to solve that problem. So China looks at that 228 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: as an I basically is an opportunity to take over Canada, 229 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: and that's not impossible, Joe. But the ultimately, I think 230 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: Trump will get this and sort it out and do 231 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: the right thing. But right now we've got an enormous 232 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: problem just north of our border. Forget about you know, 233 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 2: problems that other countries pose to us. We've got Canada 234 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: right there, and that's an investoring problem. 235 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: It really is. You know, it brings me back to 236 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: a picture that I saw of Justin Trudeau. It might 237 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: have even met a short video of Trudeau when he 238 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: was in charge, meeting with Shishi Ping and the media. 239 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: It was almost as if Ping was the father gave 240 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: him or she was the father, and looked at him like, 241 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: you know, you better better sit out, son, and Trudeau 242 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: appeared to genuflect. I mean that did you see that too? 243 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean that was disgusting. But you know, fortunately 244 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: Trudeau is no longer Prime minister. But we got Carne. 245 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: And what did Carne do when he went to Beijing? Well, 246 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: he didn't genuflect literally, but figuratively he did, and he 247 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: talked about the new World order over there, and he 248 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: talked about China as a strategic partner, and he came 249 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: and ended up with an agreement on trade, which is 250 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: going to be really bad for the United States. So yeah, 251 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 2: I think justin Trudeau was a real problem. But we've 252 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: got a bigger one in the form of Mark Carney, 253 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: the current Prime Minister. 254 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: No, I couldn't agree with you more. I think that 255 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: he's Trudeau lighter, maybe Trudeau two point zero. At the 256 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: end of the day, our relationship with with Canada is very, 257 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: very important, just like it is with Mexico. I mean, 258 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: as you said, they're bordering with us, and if some 259 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: somebody could infiltrate one of those countries, that's going to 260 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: be a real problem for us. How big a deal 261 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: is it that President Trump is incentivizing manufacturing coming back here. 262 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: As you and I were growing up, most of the 263 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: manufacturing happened here. It's the textile industry built this country, 264 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: along with automotive. Now you've got China producing almost everything, 265 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: and they got away with doing it by incentivizing manufacturing 266 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: going there and paying people nothing to go and build 267 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: this stuff and then selling it back to US for 268 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: very cheap, and we like cheap stuff. How big a 269 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: deal is it if manufacturing continues to pour trillions of 270 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: dollars into the United States, does that crippled China? 271 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: Ultimately it does, because the Chinese say, well, they're the 272 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 2: world's factory floor. So this is a really important thing 273 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: that President Trump has done. This is you know, going 274 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: back to this issue of Trump not accepting managed declimb. 275 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: This is important, this important initiative that Trump started in 276 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: his first term, and even Biden continued it because it 277 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: was made so much sense, and of course Trump in 278 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: his second term has continued with more ferocity. So this 279 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: is very, very very good for us. 280 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: Let me go back to Iran for a second. Why 281 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: exactly would China, that's a whole lot closer to Iran 282 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: than we are, Why would they want them to have 283 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons? 284 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 2: That's a great question, and I think there are a 285 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: couple of answers to it. I think that the Chinese 286 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: realized that if you know, they were going to get 287 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 2: nuclear weapons anyway somewhere down the road, so they might 288 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: as well supply them and get Iran on its side. 289 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: That's just a guess. But China has had this pro 290 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: proliferation thread through its external relations, so it's not just Iran, 291 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: of course, it's Pakistan and Iraq and Libya. These were 292 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: real attempts to disrupt the world. So it is. It's 293 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: a long standing something you can see in Chinese foreign policy. 294 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: It's sort of the point of no return. Marco Rubio 295 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: said something in the past where if we just laid 296 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: back and letter Ron continue once they have it, that's it. 297 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: We can't do anything to stop them. The only country 298 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: I can think of, and there might have been others, 299 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm not the expert on this, The only country I 300 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: can think of the give up its nukes is Ukraine, 301 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: and Ukraine giving up the nukes that actually were owned 302 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: by the Soviet Union, but they got them in part 303 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: of how the Iron Curtain fell down. They gave them 304 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: back and now they're being invaded by somebody. So once 305 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: you get nuclear weapons, it's likely you're never going to 306 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: give them up. So I mean, is China not smart 307 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: enough to realize what happened to us when we befriended 308 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: the Mujahadeen to take on the Soviet Union in Afghanistan? 309 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: Because as soon as he could bin Laden attackt Us. 310 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: Do they not realize that's likely to happen, or do 311 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: they think they can control Iran. 312 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: I think that they believe that they can control Iran 313 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: and other Arab and Muslim states. Now I think they 314 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: may have greater confidence than they need to have. They're 315 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 2: having problems with Afghanistan right now. For instance, they had 316 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: a long standing relationship. It's been Laden. As matter of fact, 317 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: they supported Ben Lauden up until nine to eleven, and 318 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: so you know, we need to understand how that happened. 319 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that they believe that they can 320 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: get a short term benefit from it and they can 321 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: control the consequences. 322 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: I mean, Iran will get whatever it can get until 323 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't need you anymore. And I'm not really sure 324 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: why other you know, other nation states don't realize that 325 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: it's Gordon Chang Gordon g Chang over on EXCO. Following there, 326 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: get the book called Playing Red. I love spending time. 327 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: You brought up Afghanistan. I have to go here that 328 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: air base and I can't think of the name of it. 329 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: Maybe you could think of the name of it off 330 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: the top of your head, exactly. Bagram right. We gave 331 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: Bagram up and it's four hundred miles to China from Bogram. 332 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: It was a smart thing for us to keep, but 333 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: Biden just gives it back. Does China have control of that? Now? 334 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: Did they go through our technology and all the equipment 335 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: that we had or did the did the Taliban keep that? 336 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: Do you know what happened with Bogram and it's China. 337 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: I would imagine China was very good friends with Afghanistan 338 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: at the moment and went in there and did what 339 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: they had to do. 340 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: Fill me in, Yeah, they had. They were really good 341 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: on really good terms with Afghanistan immediately after the fall 342 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: August twenty twenty one. Things have gotten a little bit 343 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: rocky since then, and part of it is because China 344 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: also supports Pakistan, and Pakistan and Afghanistan are going at 345 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 2: it right now. I don't think China controls the air base. 346 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 2: But you know that eighty six billion dollars of equipment 347 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: that Mark Milly left, You know, the Chinese have seen it. 348 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: They might not have gotten too much out of it, 349 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: but this was not good for us. So everything that 350 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: we end up leaving on the battlefield or whatever, the 351 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,959 Speaker 2: Chinese get to see so for instance, that Helo that 352 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: was ended up when we took Bin Laden. The Chinese 353 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: now have that. 354 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: It's just crazy, it's so odd the way the world works. 355 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: And again it's just China's vision. The entire vision is 356 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: eventually world domination. 357 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: We're just going to own it, all right, that they're 358 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 3: going to rule everybody, and it's going to be really 359 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 3: awful because Chinese talk about exterminating others, including they've talked 360 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 3: about exterminating Americans. 361 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: By the way, the way they talked about this in 362 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: the beginning go ahead, they talked about this in the 363 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: beginning of this century, and that puts the COVID nineteen 364 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: epidemic into a different light. 365 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: It is Gordon Chang, Gordon g. Chang over on exco 366 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: follow him right now, get the book called play Red. 367 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: When we're looking at China, and again, for me, in 368 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: my lifetime, I thought we had a better relationship. I 369 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: thought Richard Nixon did something positive. I feel like you 370 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: and I have talked about this before, and Nixon might 371 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: have been more hurt than he was help. Did we 372 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: ever have a relationship post World War Two with China 373 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: that was better than it is now? 374 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 2: Well, certainly, you know the Nixon's relationship with Malzadona's controversial. 375 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 2: But we've got to remember this was a time when 376 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 2: Nixon and Kissinger thought that we would have to live 377 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: with the Soviet Union forever, right, and Nixon thought that 378 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 2: if he enlisted communist China that we could actually prevail 379 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 2: in the Cold War, which is eventually what we did. 380 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 2: It was two against one at the end. Now it 381 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: is a very long conversation about whether this was a 382 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: good idea in the long term. Nixon had doubts about 383 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 2: it in the later years. But the point is it 384 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: was defensible then. But what was not defensible, Joe, is 385 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: that after Tineman at George H. W. Bush decided to 386 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 2: secretly back the Communist Party, and that was the time 387 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 2: we did not need China. That was a time when 388 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: it was just disgraceful what we did, and is a 389 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: time that has I think stained American relations with China, 390 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 2: and it has not been in our interests. So that's 391 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: a very different story. 392 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: Can we become friends with them again or no way 393 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: under this kind of. 394 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 2: Leadership, Under this leadership, no way, Because the Communist Party 395 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 2: believes it is in an existential struggle with the United States, 396 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 2: and Joe, it's not because of anything we say or do, 397 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 2: but it's because of who we are. You have an 398 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: insecure regime in Beijing is worried about the inspirational impact 399 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: of America's values and form of governance on the Chinese people. 400 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: So we will never have amicable relations with China as 401 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: long as the Communist Party rules it, which is the 402 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: reason why the Communist Party declared a quote people's war 403 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: on us in May twenty nineteen, and they've defined that 404 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 2: helpfully for us as quote total war. Remember, these guys 405 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 2: are fighting unrestricted warfare. That comes from a title of 406 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: a book in nineteen ninety nine. In that book, two 407 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: Chinese Air Force colonels talk about Bin Laden, whom China 408 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: supported at the time, hitting the United States. We need 409 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 2: to have an honest conversation of China's role in ben 410 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: Laden's attack on us, and we have not had that 411 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: at the national level. 412 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: Is the leadership of China's I'm so unsure of itself 413 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: that it sees Venezuela and the leader they're taken out. 414 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: It sees Iran and the ninety two million people might 415 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: get their country back, and maybe the Shaw's sun comes 416 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: in on an interim basis and runs it and the theocracy 417 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: is gone. Are they so unsure? Because you and I 418 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: have talked about this a lot. It's like the leader's 419 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: always looking over his shoulder. Is he going to last 420 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: or not? Are they afraid that the people can rise up? 421 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: If they see people rising up elsewhere? 422 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 2: They are always extremely concerned about their own safety and 423 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,479 Speaker 2: the security and the continuation of their regime. Whenever people 424 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 2: elsewhere overthrow their government, whether we're talking about the fall 425 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: the Berlin Wall, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the 426 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 2: Jasmine revolutions, you know, just all of these have made 427 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 2: the Chinese leaders even more insecure than they normally are. 428 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: It is Gordon g Chang over on ex go get 429 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: his book. It's called Playing Red. It's Gordon Cheng. I 430 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: really appreciate the time of the access. You mentioned Tim 431 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: and Square a little while ago, and I know that 432 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: you know that I talk to my daughter from China 433 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: when I went to China, and I googled Tea and 434 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: Him in Square just to find out what they're telling 435 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: the people of China. It said one guy died. Unfortunately 436 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: it was an accident, a ricochet bullet. I think you 437 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: and I have talked about thousands of people who wanted 438 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: freedom and liberty and just to have a voice were 439 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: actually killed in that square that day. Why did we 440 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: give the Chinese government cover? Was it George Herbert Walker 441 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: Bush just being weak? Did he have a mission a 442 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: plan as to why he would give them cover. 443 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 2: The Bush family has always been very soft on China, 444 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 2: and it's not just the dad, it's also the son. 445 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: But George Herbert Walker Bush believe that the United States 446 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 2: needed to stand behind the Communist Party, which is the 447 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 2: reason why he sent Brent Scrocroft on that secret mission 448 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 2: just a few months after Tenement to tell Dunkshall Ping, 449 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 2: the paramount leader of the time, that the United States 450 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: was going to have his back and that don't worry 451 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: about anything we say in public, and we're not going 452 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: to really enforce these sanctions. And it was one of 453 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: the most disgraceful episodes in American foreign policy and also 454 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: one I think the most disadvantageous to us. But it 455 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: was a stain on the history of our country. 456 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: Gordon, I mean, the Soviet Union was already falling in 457 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine in his first year. Because of Reagan's 458 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: good work, the iron current was crumbling. Why back up? 459 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: I almost understand it, Although I still morally weigh against it, 460 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: I almost understand it. If the Soviet Union stands, you've 461 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: got a so called friend or a companion in China, 462 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: maybe you have a better chance of keeping the Soviet Union, 463 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: you know, from doing even more greater bad things. But 464 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: already the Soviet Union was falling. Why support the communist 465 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: Chinese government? It was almost it was almost prime time 466 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine to let the people of China 467 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: know it's okay to rise up? Well back you? 468 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: Well it is. That was just the way that George 469 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 2: Bush viewed the world. You know, remember he had that 470 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 2: Chicken Kiev speech. Yes, it's just the way that he 471 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 2: looked at the world and how it was going to progress. 472 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: And I don't think it was defensible. So you're not 473 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: going to get it. You're not going to get any 474 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: kind words from me. I mean, I don't like what 475 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 2: Nixon did in nineteen seventy two, but I understand it. 476 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: It was defensible. It was a reasonable way of proceeding 477 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 2: at the time. In nineteen eighty nine, after tenement, what 478 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: Bush did was indefensible. 479 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: Let me leave you with this and again it's Gordon Shang. 480 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: We really appreciate the time and the access. As always 481 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: Gordon playing red as the name of the book, going 482 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: get it, Gordon g Chang overron X. Why hasn't China 483 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: tried something with Taiwan yet and will it? 484 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 2: Well, that's a great another great question, and a lot 485 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: of people say, with the United States bogged down in 486 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: Iran with using US using up our munitions, that this 487 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 2: creates the perfect opportunity for Cijmping to take Taiwan. And 488 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: it does. But the point is China's in no position 489 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: to launch hostilities with an invasion of the main island 490 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: of Taiwan. Sijimping has decimated the top of the Chinese 491 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: military with his purges. We know that the Chinese weapons 492 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: don't work very well. We saw that in Venezuela, We're 493 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 2: now seeing it in Iran, and an invasion of Taiwan 494 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 2: would be extremely unpopular with the Chinese people. So as 495 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: a practical matter, Sijimping can't take advantage of it. Now. 496 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: That's not to say that China is going to avoid 497 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: war in the next months or years. They could blunder 498 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 2: into war, especially with all these very provocative exercises and 499 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: acts against their neighbors. But the point is that right now, 500 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: China's not a capable doesn't have a capable military. 501 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: For some reason, people think that we're on the hook 502 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: for Ukraine, and if you actually read the memorandum, we're 503 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: not on the hook. I think Obama sent them MRIs 504 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: and blankets and pillows. He certainly didn't send over three 505 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars worth of armament money. Are we on 506 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: the hook at all? Do we have a promise with 507 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: Taiwan that will defend them if China does something? 508 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: We don't have a formal promise we have. We've done 509 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 2: a number of things though, which have led to Taiwanese 510 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 2: to believe that we will defend them. We are morally 511 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 2: responsible for a lot of reasons, but more important, it's 512 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: in our direct interest to defend Taiwan. Since the nineteen hundreds, sorry, 513 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: since the eighteen hundreds, Taiwan has been part of our 514 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 2: western defense perimeter. Today it is in the center of 515 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: that perimeter where the East and South China seas meet. 516 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 2: You can't defend Japan very well if Taiwan is in 517 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: China's hands. After August twenty twenty one Biden's debacle in Afghanistan. 518 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 2: Taiwan has become for many the test of American credibility 519 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 2: and resolved. And at a time where China is just 520 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 2: criticizes not only democracies but the whole concept democracy. We 521 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,959 Speaker 2: can't allow the Chinese to absorb any democracy, especially one 522 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 2: is important as Taiwan. And then the answer the reason 523 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 2: that many people talk about the silicon shield TSMC, a 524 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: Taiwanese company, makes ninety two percent of the world's most 525 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 2: sophisticated semiconductors. Yeah, we don't want that to fall into 526 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 2: China's hands. So there are a ton of reasons why 527 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 2: defending Taiwan is actually defending America. And it's in our 528 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 2: interest to do it. Forget about moral responsibility anything else, 529 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: It's in our interest. 530 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: It's Gordon Shang Gordon, if you don't mind before I 531 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: let you go, and I appreciate all the time. Today, 532 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: could you explain how we're so contradictory in our policy 533 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: towards China and Taiwan. You got Nancy Pelosi saying we 534 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: believe in the one China policy. Well, at the same time, 535 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: we believe that Taiwan has has the right to exist 536 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: as a sovereign nation. How can we both be the 537 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: both can't be true, can they. We're saying one China. 538 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: That means that we agree with China that Taiwan is 539 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: part of it. 540 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 2: Well, our one China policy is very different from China's 541 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: one China principle. Okay, Our one China policy is this. 542 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 2: First of all, we recognize Communist Party as a legitimate 543 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: government of China. We acknowledge, not in the sense of 544 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: accept but we understand that Beijing takes the position that 545 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 2: Taiwan is part of the People's Republic. We don't accept it. 546 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 2: Our position is that the resolution of Taiwan's political status 547 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: must be peaceful, it must be with the consent of 548 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: the people in Taiwan. So yes, we can say, look, 549 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: you know, the status of Taiwan is unresolved. It's got 550 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: to be resolved peacefully, and we do not accept Beijing's 551 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 2: notion that is part of the people's republic. So that's 552 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: one of the most misunderstood American foreign policies. 553 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: It's almost misunderstood because how they named it. If they 554 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: would have called it something different, I think we all 555 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: could have understood it. But I almost get the feeling 556 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: that people like Pelosi like saying it to make people 557 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: think that we do agree with them at the same 558 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: time we don't, which both can't be true. I love 559 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: how you just explained it though it's Gordon chang Go 560 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: to Play Red. Get Playing Reddits's book. You can get 561 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: it wherever you good books are are sold, and this 562 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: is a great book, and go follow them. Gordon g 563 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: Chang over on X Gordon. Always appreciate the time and 564 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: the access, and thanks for being so easy to understand 565 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,479 Speaker 1: and how you explain what's going on over there. 566 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: Thank you well, Thank you, Joe. I really appreciate the 567 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: opportunity to chat with you. And yes, it's a pretty 568 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: dangerous world, so stay safe. 569 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: We will do so. Thank you very much, my friend. 570 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: That's it for this one. We'll be back with another, 571 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: Unshaken and Unafraid with Joe Pegs very soon. Make sure 572 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: you subscribe.