1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Life's truest wealth is found in the faces 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: and stories of those we walk alongside. When we slow 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 1: down to value people over achievements, we begin to live 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: the kind of life God intended, a life of deep connection, joy, 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: and lasting impact. Hi friends, I'm Jem Faddling and this 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: is the Unhurried Living Podcast where we inspire you to 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. Today I'm talking 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: with Christian Mungai, global movement pastor at Mariner's Church, Native 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: Canyon and part of the team behind the influential Rooted 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: Discipleship process. Christian's story stretches from his upbringing in Nairobi 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: to his work shaping communities of faith here in the 12 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: United States. Along the way, he has seen that life's 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: truest wealth is not found in accomplishments or possessions, but 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: in the people God is placed around us. After a 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, will dive into our conversation for today. 16 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: In his new book, People Are the Wealth, Christian draws 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: from his African heritage to share a vision of Christian 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: living that is relational, spiritual, and transformative. He invites us 19 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: to reimagine success, shifting our focus from what we can 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: achieve to how we can invest in others. It's a 21 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: message that speaks to anyone longing for a more connected life. 22 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: Giving faith Christian will inspire you to slow down, pay 23 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: attention and see the people around you as the priceless 24 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: gift they truly are. Well, Pastor Christian Mungui, thank you 25 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: so much for coming on the Unheard Living podcast. I'm 26 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: looking forward to this conversation. 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: Thank you for having it to nonmin a privilege. 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: Yes, well, I thought we would just start before we 29 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: dive into your book. Of course, it's called People Are 30 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: the Wealth. I thought maybe we could just hear a 31 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: little bit about you. You sort of open up with 32 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: your story in the book. How did how did you 33 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: come from Kenya to Orange County? 34 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: Thank you John for having me my story. I'll just 35 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: be trying and be brief about it. So born and 36 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: raised Kenya on the east side of the city of Nairobi, 37 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 2: which is the lower income, mostly difficult areas, majorly marginalized. 38 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: But then I went to school on the east side, 39 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: on the west side. So born in the east, raised 40 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: in the east, and then went to school in the west. 41 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: And that was because my parents or my dad and 42 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 2: mom had this high view of education, but they knew 43 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 2: that for us to have an education, they would have 44 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: to sacrifice and live in a place where they can 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 2: afford that we can go to the best schools. And 46 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: that in itself tells us a little bit about my story. 47 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: Because I wasn't east enough for the East, and I 48 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: wasn't west enough of the West. So I went to 49 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: school with some of the wealthiest kids, some of the 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: most you know this, yeah, some of the most you know, 51 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: prestigious people in our country. But then I would go 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: home to what it'd call a ghetto. And but what 53 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: it inadvidently led to is this life where I never 54 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: belonged to either. And so I have become a bridge builder. 55 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: And this is because my dad. My dad was raised 56 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: as a Christian, because my grandfather became a Christian. So 57 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: my grandfather became a Christian because of Scottish missionaries who 58 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: made their way to my grandpa's village, and so my 59 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: grandpa was one of the first few Christians in his 60 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: village and he became a chef then raised his twelve kids, 61 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: and one of his kids was my dad. And my 62 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: dad became a Prisbee term minister and then I grew 63 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: up in my Christian faith. You know, of course I 64 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: walked away from it. I had some wayward ideas, but 65 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 2: then I came back to it when I was seventeen. 66 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: But growing up in East and East and West has 67 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: kind of mapped and shaped my life. That's what I 68 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: get to do today. I get to be a bridge 69 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: builder from people from different places and different generations, different cultures, 70 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: you know, multi ethnic, multicultural, multi generational, multisectoral, and so 71 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: it was kind of a precursor to what I get 72 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: to do today. And so it's been a great gift. 73 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: When I was seventeen, after I graduated from high school 74 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: at eighteen, my parents sent me to India on a 75 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: one way ticket in one term school fees because they 76 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,239 Speaker 2: felt that I should become a lawyer against my will 77 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 2: and I never wanted to study law. But at eighteen 78 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 2: years old, I made my way to India to a 79 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 2: place they had never been, I had never been, and 80 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 2: to nobody. That was a faith journey. But that's where 81 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: my faith really grew because I was so out of 82 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: my comfort zone, sort of my element as a young man. 83 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: But my faith grew there. But after I finished my education, 84 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 2: I went back home and the hey gently and kindly 85 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: put told my parents, thank you so much for your 86 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: generosity and for your help, but I really want to 87 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: go to America and study. I want to go to 88 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: to become an actor. That's what I wanted, to become 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: a soccer player or an actor, two things that you 90 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 2: cannot be because my parents thought, as African parents, they 91 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: thought that's a hobby, it's not a sort of career. Anyway, 92 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: mid my way to America, I came here and quickly 93 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: I realized that my law degree was almost you know, 94 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: null and void because the law systems are very different. 95 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: And so I struggled for a couple of years and 96 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: then ultimately I heard about a canon for a breakfast 97 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: that was happening. I show up there and long story short, 98 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: three of my childhood buddies happened to be there. Unbeknownst 99 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: to us, the three of them happened to be musicians, 100 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: so they started leading worship for the little fellowship. They 101 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 2: told me to join in, and since they told me, 102 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: you want to be an actor, you might as well 103 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 2: act as a singer. That's what's what I did. I 104 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: acted as a singer for a while and we formed 105 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: a band, it took off some notoriety, and then ultimately 106 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 2: I told them I'd love to incorporate our band as 107 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: and nonprofits, and so we did and the nonprofit became 108 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: real and we started traveling the country, so we do 109 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 2: for the state tours across the US. And then in 110 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 2: two thousand and four, Yeah, we made our way to 111 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: Minus Church challenged them on how they're engaging their faith, 112 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 2: and at first it was difficult, but ultimately they listened, 113 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 2: and then they finally said, would you come on our stuff? 114 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: So I've been on stuff at Minus Church for the 115 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 2: last eighteen years and it's been a joy. But that's 116 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 2: a little bit about my journey of getting to where 117 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: I am today. 118 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, well, that is just a blast a 119 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: blast through. I'm sure there's so many more amazing stories 120 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: in there that we did not hear. I know. Oh 121 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: my goodness, Well, what a what a story to have 122 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: all those opportunities. But I like to go back to 123 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: what you're saying about yourself at the very beginning, that 124 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: you're a bridge builder. Absolutely, that sort of came into 125 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: your spirit very young, just because of the kind of 126 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: the two worlds you were in and what a gift 127 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: of God to prepare even for what you do amazing. 128 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: And I had no idea, you know. You know, it's 129 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: kicker gud who's said that life is lived must be 130 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: lived forwards, but it's only understood backwards. And I think 131 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: that's it to see, is that I had no idea 132 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: at that time. It was just east and west. I 133 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: had no idea. But God uses it all, you know, 134 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: if you allow it, even some places of your pain 135 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: can be your platform. And I think that's what happened. 136 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: And and now I look back in retrospect that God 137 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: was kind of just setting me up for that. So 138 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: I you know, when people say, how do you know 139 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: you were going to do this, I had no idea. 140 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: I never wanted to be a pastor. I wanted to 141 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: be a soccer player and actor and I'm neither of them, 142 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: you know, and or either a lawyer too, because I 143 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: never pursued my law after my degree. You know. So 144 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: God has just a way of just working things out 145 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: just and you look back and you know that's why, 146 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: you know, life happens gradually and then suddenly, so just 147 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: one right step in front of the other and then suddenly, yeah, 148 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: I am doing what I get to do. What a gift? 149 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: What a gift? 150 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: So good. Yeah, my husband Alan just interviewed the author 151 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: of that book. Was that Matterson? Gradually and then suddenly yeah, yeah, yeah, 152 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: yeah yeah, he just interviewed him. I don't know if 153 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: it's aired yet, but anyway, what a great title of 154 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: a book. And it is so true. Isn't that the 155 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: way it works? It's little steps all the time, and 156 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden something happens. It's because of 157 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 1: all these things that led up to it. 158 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: Such good truth it is. It is such a great truth. 159 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 2: I love it. We've actually been using that for years, 160 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: you know, though gradually and then suddenly there's been something. 161 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: Even before Patterson's book, we were talking about that and 162 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: we used to use it in relationship to going to 163 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 2: the gym. So you're good to the gym. You never 164 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: you never wake up one in your buff. It's the 165 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,479 Speaker 2: little steps, and it's either way, you know, it's positively 166 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: and negatively. You know, you don't wake up one. You know, 167 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: you do it slowly, slowly, and then one day you're there. 168 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: And then the reverse is true with the gym. One 169 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: day at a time and all of a sudden you 170 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: build muscle, and I think most of us, I say 171 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: that we are in a spiritual gym. You know, every 172 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: day you're just taking the right next step with God. 173 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: And one day you wake up and you're like, we realize, oh, 174 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: I have mature. You never know that you've matured, but 175 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 2: you look back and you say, wow, how much have 176 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: matured in my face? And so being a bridge builder 177 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: has been something that has been gradually. 178 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: And then suddenly, yeah, well you're using a lot of 179 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: vocabulary that we use here at unheard them, and we 180 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: talk a lot about those small and simple steps that 181 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: you take over time because we are being formed and 182 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: you get to decide which way, like you said, which 183 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: way do you want to be formed? Absolutely, so I 184 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: really love that gradually. And then suddenly I'm wondering, now, 185 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: maybe let's let's pivot talk a little bit about your book. 186 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: I'm really intrigued, especially the people focus. I mean that 187 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: it's called people Are the Wealth. So you've made it 188 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: very clear upfront that we're talking about relationships and actual 189 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: human beings. So what do you think is the importance 190 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: of your book at this time? Maybe tell us maybe 191 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: the main theme of it and why it's important now. 192 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the title of the book People of the 193 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: Wealth comes from an African proverb that my dad would 194 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 2: share with me. My dad was one of my heroes. 195 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 2: He passed on twenty eighteen, but then he calcated this 196 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: view in me from one who I am. So while 197 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: we're living in a place that you would call, you know, 198 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: deep poverty, I never thought of myself as poor because 199 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: my dad would say money will make you rich, but 200 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: it never make you wealthy, because you're only as wealthy 201 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: as the people you have around you, because people are 202 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: the wealth. And so by that definition, my dad would say, 203 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: we're pretty wealthy because we had people all around us. 204 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 2: And even when it came time to send me to 205 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: school for my education, we didn't have the money. But 206 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: my dad said, hey, we've got friends. And so one 207 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 2: afternoon after the church they rallied a bunch of friends 208 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: around a church and we raised money for one term's 209 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: fees and one way ticket to India, and they said, 210 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: God has provided enough for now you got to go. 211 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: You know. So I'm not safe. I'm not self made, 212 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: you know, I'm a result of people who have invested 213 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: and quite honestly know, one is you know, it's the 214 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 2: people who've invested in them. So that title people at 215 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: the World became such a that probably it formed my life. 216 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: You know, I used it all the time. I tried 217 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: to live a search. But as I've been working in 218 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: the mission space, it just came. It became very clear 219 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: to me that there's some things that we may need 220 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 2: to rethink, reimagine, and so rethinking, especially the starting point 221 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 2: for missions became thinks something that I became challenged by. 222 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: So the main thou of the book is this. Any 223 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: time we talk about global missions or you talk about missions, 224 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 2: people have two focuses. It's either the Great commission Marthe 225 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: twenty eight, which is predominantly the one that people call 226 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: the missions, or some will say the great commandment Marthew 227 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: twenty five. You know, go and do good. You know 228 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: when you did, they lost the list of this. You 229 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: did it not to me. And so you've got these 230 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: two aspects of missions. And so you've got great commission 231 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: and then you've got great commandment. But as I thought 232 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: about and as I've been engaging in the mission space 233 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: for the last eighteen years, I found out that maybe 234 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: we're missing maybe we're missing something, and what we're missing 235 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 2: is maybe the starting point. And so for me, as 236 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: I looked at the scriptures, I thought, man, why do 237 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: you have to wait until Marthy? Why don't we start 238 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: a genesis? And what I have come to recognize is 239 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: that even before creation existed, community was so before God 240 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: creates the world or the earth, he existed in community, Father, Son, 241 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 2: and Holy Spirit. So there was unity and diversity in 242 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: the trinity, and so there was community there. And so 243 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: when when God creates a world, he creates us in 244 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: the image of a community, you know. And so but 245 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: we don't recognize that. We think of ourselves as individuals, 246 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 2: but we are creating the image of a God who 247 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: is a we. And so we cannot be our fuller 248 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: self until we're a we and not a me. But 249 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: we just live a life of me. And so what 250 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: if we started the great you know, stud of that 251 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: our missions mandate by going back to the intentionality of 252 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: inherent worth and dignity of every human being. But that 253 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: inherent worth and dignity is a communal is a communal image, 254 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 2: and so if we became more of a we, then 255 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: maybe we could restore everything to its original intent. Because 256 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: the actual essence of missions is to go back to shalom, 257 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: nothing missing, nothing broken, you know, a great relationship with 258 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: God itself, with each other, with the environment, but that 259 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: was broken by Genesis three. And so what I do 260 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: in the book is to kind of talk about on 261 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: the cover we have the three leggeds two and I said, okay, 262 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: so if you have two aspects, there's a third spoke, 263 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: which I think we've been missing. And in my culture, 264 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: a three legged too symbolized stability, it symbolized family, it 265 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: symbolized unity with the ancestors. And so I said, maybe 266 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: we should have a more robust thinking about it and 267 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: so and it would change the way we engage and 268 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: so people become the subjects and not the objects of 269 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: our mission. And so that's the essence of the book 270 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: is kind of trying to start the is to rethink 271 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 2: the starting point of global missions with one with two 272 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 2: very important aspects. One the inherent worth and dignity of 273 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: every human being. That every human being you come across 274 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: is created in the image of God. And therefore you're 275 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: meeting as you meet anybody, it doesn't matter who you're meeting, 276 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: they have an inherent worth and dignity. And maybe our 277 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: work is to find why God created them in the 278 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: first place, and so they become the subjects that we 279 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: get to bring together. But then we bring them together 280 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 2: in community. And so that's the second aspect, is inherent 281 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: worth and dignity, but then a community. And in fact, 282 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: most of the Bible, most Westerners will not understand this, 283 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: but most of the Bible is into a wee culture, 284 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: not to an eye culture or me culture. And so 285 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: even from the beginning, the Great the Ten Commandments were 286 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: not given to a person, who are given to a 287 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 2: people in such a way that if people saw how 288 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: those people are living, they would go like, that is 289 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: so cool. We want to be a part of that community, 290 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: just like the same thing when Israel was chosen. You know, 291 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 2: they are blessed to be a blessing, you know. But 292 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 2: at times when we feeled out blessing, we make it 293 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: out us. We make it mine, you know. And so 294 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: that's why the book exists. And that's why I thought 295 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: it's just stating the doctrin of the image of God, 296 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: the high view of the document image of God, but 297 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: spoken from an African perspective, because for us it makes 298 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: sense as as a culture that is more communal in essence. 299 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: So that's that's why the book, that's the main primse 300 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: of the book. 301 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: I really love that because I mean, I've I've been 302 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: born and raised here in the United States, and so 303 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: I live and breathe that culture of I and me 304 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: and you know, and I've been to Africa once. I 305 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: visited Rwanda and Uganda, and we had the privilege of 306 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: working with leaders there and so we met with just 307 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: some stellar, amazing people. But when I could feel I've 308 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: said this before about visiting other countries, I can when 309 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: I go somewhere else, I can always feel my own 310 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: culture on me when I'm in another culture, and you know, 311 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like I could feel the sort of 312 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: the rushing and the and the assumptions that I make 313 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: because you're bumping into a whole different kind of way 314 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: of living. Yeah, And you can't be enough for very 315 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: long without picking up on how community oriented they are 316 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: and people centered they are, and they have a completely 317 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: different sense of time, absolutely cool, and how long they 318 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: want to talk or visit or you know, in America, 319 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: I always that there's always this sense if I'm going 320 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: somewhere else, you don't get that sense there They're not 321 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: trying to do something else. And I just think that's 322 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: beautiful and I love that you're bringing that sensibility to 323 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: us because it's easy for us to be of our 324 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: own culture because we live in it. 325 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, the sense of time is actually very and it's 326 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 2: a very unhied living, you know, it's very unhired living 327 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: because the most important thing is present. So you're not 328 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: thinking about where you've come from or where you're going. 329 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: You're thinking about the gift that it is to be 330 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: present at that particular moment. And so when you show 331 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 2: up at some place, people are not avoided but that 332 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 2: you are lead. They're grateful that you are there, you know, 333 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 2: and so you just enjoy your presence. So nobody is 334 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 2: you know, it took me a while to understand that 335 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: in America, being late is actually rude, you know, because 336 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 2: you know in a lot of them, you know, the 337 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: two thirds world. You know, you cannot predict everything because 338 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 2: nothing is scheduled according to time, and so you just 339 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: are grateful and events starts on it starts, and it 340 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 2: ends when it ends. There's no you're not looking at 341 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: the clock. What we have is time. We have a 342 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: very un hired living, and so people are just present, 343 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 2: you know. And so when I saw the title of 344 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 2: your podcast, I was like, this is actually really cool. 345 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: It sounds very African and hired living. 346 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: That's worth. 347 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 2: We walk just gently and slowly. Not nobody is moving fast. 348 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: You know. 349 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: Well that we're in our own way. Again, as I said, 350 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: my husband are both born and raised here. But we 351 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: are in our own way because we believe that there 352 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: is a pattern of Jesus that is unhurried. What you 353 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: just described is the way of Jesus. He stopped for 354 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: people when it wasn't convenient to the disciples, and he 355 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: and he walked the way of love, which is absolutely 356 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: unhurried because you have to have presence and willingness to 357 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: be with whatever's going on. So we're just trying to, 358 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: hopefully in our own way, help maybe perpetuate the same 359 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: sort of mindset or way of life that you're talking about. 360 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: And sometimes I'm jealous of the Africans I've met that 361 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: you have that sort of inherently in you, and I 362 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,959 Speaker 1: feel like I have to sort of fight against the 363 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: cultural thing that's sort of on me from being living 364 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: here so long. 365 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: But it can be practiced, it can it can and 366 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 2: we have great examples. So for example, in the book 367 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 2: I talk about this is the essence of our ministry 368 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: is Jesus mission to us. You know, that's what forms 369 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: what we are. And you think about how he came 370 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: to us. You know, in Philippians too, it was a 371 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: most unhearded living you've ever seen. So think about it. 372 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: God has this idea, let's go change, let's go save 373 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: the world. And he says, Okay, you know what we're 374 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 2: gonna do. We're gonna send a baby. You know, the 375 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: best way to save the world is to send a baby. 376 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 2: It's a most assiline, most non western way of thinking, 377 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: you know, because what's the return on investments and on 378 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: a baby? You know, what's a KPIs and a baby? 379 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 2: Like literally you come in, we you know, needy, you know. 380 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: And for thirty years, really Jesus did nothing. So can 381 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 2: you imagine Jesus missions report for thirty years, I was 382 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: just hanging around Nazareth. You know it is not it 383 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 2: would never make our missions you know reports and our 384 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: missions ros and KPIs never For thirty years, Jesus just 385 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 2: was He just acculturated. He became like us, so that 386 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: we can become with him, you know, And so when 387 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: you think about that's the premise of our missions, why 388 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: do we then do it so backwards? When he says, 389 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 2: as you know, as I've sent the sun so sent 390 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: up are you? Is that the way we're being sent 391 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 2: are we're being sent We're sent in a quick you know, 392 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: people have to go fast quick. They don't care to 393 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 2: take time to actually understand the people that they're going 394 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: to be with. And that's why I love the missionaries 395 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 2: who reached my grandfather because they actually had the foresight 396 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: of taking time to understand why my grandfather was involved 397 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: in a ritual of looking and facing a mountain and 398 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 2: worshiping a mountain. They took the time to understand that. 399 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: You know, they never came and just immediately judged them 400 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 2: and said, you guys are worshiping a mountain. You know, 401 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 2: I don't worshipers. You know. It was a very way. 402 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: It's just a slowed way of doing it. And then 403 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: he did a ministry in three years and he was gone, 404 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: you know. And so I think there's something there that 405 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: that that that we can learn just by looking at 406 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: the essence of our faith or how even our faith 407 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: came to be, you know, so that premise is really 408 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: important for us, and I think it's something that we 409 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: miss out as we engage in the missions world. 410 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: Well continue at the break. I really love what you're saying, Christian, 411 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: because it sounds like you're getting us back to sort 412 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: of the center of things, under the surface of things, 413 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: where the way matters, not just the what you know 414 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: in your book, right the way the way it matters. 415 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: And you said you said when you're talking about the 416 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: shifting this missions, you said sending and fixing, that you 417 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: want to shift from sending and fixing, which is kind 418 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: of an American way to listening and learning, which is 419 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: what you just described. Maybe talk a little bit more 420 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: about that because I know that again I keep talking 421 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: about America, but we are living here in America, in 422 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: the United States, and we have tendencies and we do 423 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: tend to think that we know how to make things 424 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: happen and how things are done well or right or whatever, 425 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: and then we can take that somewhere and act like 426 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: an expert. But you're talking about listening and learning, right, 427 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit more about that. 428 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think at first acknowledge that you're the worstern 429 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: way of doing things. Is really a gift, It truly is, 430 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 2: you know, there's efficiencies, the maximization of times people want accountability. 431 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: It's actually a really good way. It's a gift. But 432 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: many times our gifts can also be our challenges when 433 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: taken and loaded on other people, loaded and other people 434 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: as this is the way to do things, you know. 435 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: So I think that's a beautiful gift. So I don't 436 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 2: want to I don't want to throw away the baby, 437 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 2: the bath water. I want to say that that's what 438 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: has led to what we get to see in terms 439 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 2: of great, great civilizations, great culture, great you know wealth, 440 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: you know, you know financial wealth. So it's a gift. 441 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 2: But I think to come and then now just put 442 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 2: that and loaded other on other people is where the 443 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: challenge becomes. So I think the gift becomes when you 444 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 2: take your gift, take it with you to wherever you are, 445 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: but take time to understand the culture that you're stepping into. 446 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: Because while that's a gift that one culture has been given, 447 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: that one gift is not the predominant gift. And just 448 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: because you have more money, you have more education, doesn't 449 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: mean that that's wisdom because information does not become just 450 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: I've met some of the wisest people that have no education, 451 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 2: you know, but we equate wisdom to education. Just because 452 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: somebody has knowledge doesn't mean that they've been able to 453 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 2: synthesize that into how they into how they live. You know. 454 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 2: It's just a bunch of information. And so I think, 455 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 2: and I think that's why I challenge the book. I say, 456 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 2: let's move from an event into a narrative. An event checks, 457 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: you know, you check a box to come in. You 458 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 2: do an event, and you check a box. But let's stop, 459 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 2: you know, doing events, and let's create story. And you know, 460 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: our stories are the currency of human contact. I think 461 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: that's somebody McKee said that. Robert McKee said that, you know, 462 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: so take time to understand people's story, get to know them, 463 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: get to understand where you're from. In Kenya, when you 464 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: meet somebody for the first time, you don't ask them 465 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: what they do. You ask them where you're from, your village, 466 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 2: and who are your people, your family, Because if you 467 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: tell me where you're from and you tell me who 468 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: your family is, I'll tell you who you are. You know. 469 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: So in America, you want to meet somebody, you ask 470 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: them what they do and immediately you size them, you know, 471 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: you put them in the right the rightful place. But 472 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: that's the way you move from an event to a narrative. 473 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 2: Another thing that you do is you move from just 474 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 2: something that is pragmatic to communion or community where you're 475 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: just not coming You're not just coming in to just 476 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: get what you want, but to come in to build community. 477 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 2: And then they're the other. The other thing that I 478 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: challenge is moving from just good deeds. You know, it's 479 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 2: it's it's how to do a project and get done? 480 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: Or am I really there to do developments? You know, 481 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: because project come and go, but development is actually much 482 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 2: much tougher. And then it's is it self interest or 483 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 2: are you doing servnthood? And self interest is about me? 484 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: I did this, I went there, I accomplished this, or 485 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: you coming in as a servant. Because the problem of 486 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: coming in a servernthood. We talk about servant leadership and servnthood, 487 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: but let me tell you, once you become a servant, 488 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 2: at times people will treat you as such, and I 489 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 2: will tell you whether you're really a servant, Because if 490 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 2: somebody treats you as a servant when you've come down 491 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: at severnthood, then all of a sudden you realize about you. 492 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 2: It's but if you realize about your self interest. And 493 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: so those are some of the things that you just 494 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 2: if you, if you understand that, it will take time 495 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 2: to really go in with a posture of learning. And 496 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: that's why I think First Corinthians chapter twelve, which one 497 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: of my bishop's paraphrase, has been a guiding scripture for me. 498 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 2: You know, the hand cannot set to the food and 499 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: not need you, The toal cannot set to the head 500 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: and won't need you. The whole body where one body, 501 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: and I think if we go to the other parts 502 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: of the body with respect on a dignity, be caring 503 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: to find out why do you exist and why do 504 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 2: you do the things that you are, I think that 505 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 2: will give us a better place than just saying, hey, 506 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: this is how we do it, this is how it's 507 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 2: going to happen, and you know it becomes Just because 508 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 2: it works in the West doesn't mean you export it 509 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 2: to the rest. 510 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: Yes, for sure. Well, the undercurrent of what you're sharing, 511 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: I think I'm hearing that you just it would be 512 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: good to have a little humility, absolutely right, just some humility. 513 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: You're going to be with other people who have a 514 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: way of life, and you don't have to just lay 515 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: something on them. 516 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 517 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: I love these words you said, wisdom, narrative, servanthod. These 518 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: are all unhurried terms as well. That stuff doesn't happen quickly. 519 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 2: It doesn't. 520 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: You're taking a very formational stance toward missions. 521 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's why that's why I'm contending that mission 522 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: is not about it just accomplished. Some think it's about 523 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: being fully formed. And as we're being fully formed, we're 524 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: slowly going back to the original intent of what God had, 525 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: which is perfect relationship shalom, you know, shalom. And so 526 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 2: that means that poverty cannot be just described as you know, 527 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 2: object poverty. There's a ton of poverty that I see 528 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: in America. It's just hidden behind gated communities. Right. 529 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: Well, Mother Teresa famously called that the poverty of the West, right, 530 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: the poverty of spirit, poverty of heart. 531 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's a poverty ultimately, And I think I 532 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: think Mother Triesa's one who said that we the Western 533 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: people and the African people, we're just one beggar going 534 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: to another two trying to find out where we can 535 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: find bread. So we're both beggar in essence. But I 536 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: think as we address, as we engage each other mutually 537 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: and reciprocally, what we find is that we actually go 538 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: back to the original intent where, you know, where where 539 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: there's nothing missing, nothing broken. I think when I was 540 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: in India, one guru told, you know, some people are 541 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 2: so poor, so so poor that all they have is money. 542 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: I was like, what are you talking about. It's like, yeah, 543 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: some people all they have is money. They have nothing 544 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: else they have, you know, they have nothing else. And 545 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: so I think just that formational aspect takes us back 546 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: if we were to think about it from a formation standpoint. 547 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: And that's why even where I've been working at Minus Church, 548 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: just say that, you know, one of the aspects of 549 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: missions is not doing, it's about being. It's being fully 550 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 2: formed a question and your formation is intricately bound with 551 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: the other person's formation, and so you know, and so 552 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 2: we need that you know, intricacy of that global formation 553 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: from each other, every nation, every tribe, every time, and 554 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: so that we can come the full stage of who 555 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 2: Christ called us to be. I think that's what people 556 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 2: don't think about, you know, a lot when they get 557 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: into missions. It's always about accomplishing something. It's about coming 558 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: to get people to believe in Jesus. And yes, that 559 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: is it, you know, but remember that every person you're 560 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: coming across has really got an image, that icon of 561 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 2: God is ready in them. You know, if you are 562 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: unhurried and you engage time, you'd actually find out why 563 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: did God really create this person? And that might be 564 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: a really good doorway to restoring everything back to shaloon, 565 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:32,239 Speaker 2: you know. 566 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: So, yeah, there was a book. 567 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead, No, I just said the last I'm sorry, 568 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: the information is the essence. 569 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just remembering that book from I don't know, 570 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: the eighties. Maybe it's called Eternity in their Hearts. I 571 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: think that's in scripture, Eternity in their Hearts, And I 572 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: just remember, yeah, yeah, so good. And I love this 573 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: formational conversation. Of course, I'm a spiritual dre and so 574 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: I wonder the paradigm that you're describing as the paradigm 575 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: that I try to move through life with, because I 576 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: think the training and that really helped that God is 577 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: at work. Yes, this is assumptions spiritual directors make. God 578 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: is already at work. God is within this person, around 579 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: this person, and you can honor and respect them exactly 580 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: as they are where they are, and then you listen deeply. Yeah, right, 581 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: and you're asking questions. I just think that's a beautiful 582 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: way to just be a human, not just a spiritual directory. 583 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: It is and that's what the essence of people at 584 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 2: the world is, is that there's inheritan worth and dignity 585 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 2: and our work. I would say that in my work 586 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 2: of bridge building, my mission statement is actually to excavate 587 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 2: the image bearer in every human being for the sake 588 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: of bridge building. So I don't bring anything. It's like 589 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: Michelangelo said, in a block of stone, all I just 590 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 2: do is chip away until the image actually emerges, you know, 591 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: so it'll bring me to people. Our work is to 592 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: go and find out and you excl and so you've 593 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 2: got but to excaate. It takes time. It has to. 594 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 2: You're seeing, you're looking, you're hearing, you're listening. It's not 595 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: it's not rushed, it's it's time. And that's what we 596 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 2: don't have, especially in the West, you know. But I 597 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 2: say that in Africa we actually have the time. You 598 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 2: guys have the clock, right. 599 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: Well, that's that's the conversation, right because we actually do 600 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: have the time. We just act like we don't, and 601 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: we make up stories, Like you said, we craft narratives 602 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: that make it seem like we don't. But there's choices 603 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: you could make, and there's and there's there's perspectives that 604 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: you could have to shift your very view of time. 605 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: I love talking about that. But one of the things 606 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: another phrase you said in the book, I think this 607 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: is early on just going back to it, turn about 608 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: where people go on mission and they think they're supposed 609 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: to do something and they would ask you, what are 610 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: we going to do? You know that, which is a 611 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: very common thing to do. But I love what you said. 612 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: You said, what we're going to do is be human 613 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: with our brothers and sisters in this new place. 614 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: Comptly I saw that. 615 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: I thought, what a beautiful I mean, how fortunate Mariners 616 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: is to have a pastor with such a heart and 617 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: with such wisdom. What we're gonna do is be with 618 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: other people. But that's beautiful. I really really love that. 619 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: It's the hardest thing because when everybody challenges that because 620 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,239 Speaker 2: they just want to go and do something, and what 621 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: you what you forget it's not a new premise, it's 622 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 2: actually the gospel, you know, in the gospel, and it's 623 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 2: the only place that our doing comes from our becoming, 624 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 2: you know. It's the imperative indicative, you know, you don't 625 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 2: you don't do to become, you become and then you do. 626 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 2: And so any time, anytime you are and you being 627 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: become human with somebody else, the doing will come out 628 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 2: of it. But unfortunately we've kind of flipped that and 629 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: the doing precedes the being. And so what we've been 630 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 2: working on for years and it's still such a grind, 631 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 2: is that what are we going to do? Everybody also 632 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 2: going to do something, you know, and it's because there's 633 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 2: a sense of lack of significance, you know, and when 634 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: you have nothing more significant than yourself to live or 635 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 2: you actually lose your significance, you know. And so it's 636 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: about you, not about the other people who you're going 637 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 2: to engage. And so I think what we realize, what 638 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 2: we don't realize, is that let's be first, let's just 639 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 2: be present. The doing will come out of it. It 640 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 2: will inedvalantly, you know, appear, it will appear because it 641 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 2: will come out. But what you're going to do is 642 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 2: you're going to study subjects. It's a people, they have 643 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 2: inherent worthy of inherent dignity, get to know them. What 644 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 2: comes out of that will just be an excuse. And 645 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: it's actually even what you get to do will be 646 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: doing something that will increase their being, you know, mutually 647 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: and reciprocally. So it's it's not an easy thing. But 648 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: emissions of formation is such an aspect of that we've 649 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 2: completely missed. And that's what I'm calling that that spoke 650 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 2: or you know, if you if if the two are 651 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: the wings of a plane, then the body of the 652 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 2: plane is the doctrine of the image of God, which 653 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 2: we've missed. You know. You know, we are very busy 654 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 2: flying this plane, some with one wing, others with the 655 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 2: other wing, and then you know, whatever wing it is, 656 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 2: and then but we've we've left out the whole body, 657 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: just like wings flying around without a body, you. 658 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: Know for sure. Yeah, we often talk here about John fifteen, 659 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: which of course is the vine and the branches. I 660 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: think that's a similar idea, is just remaining on the 661 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: vine right the wings I mean without the plane. I 662 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: mean you have to have the whole plane to make 663 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: the plane fly right. And you can have grapes unless 664 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: the branches on the vine not going to happen, simple, 665 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: simple image. I'm wondering if you would return to me 666 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: to the idea of servant leadership. We talked to Christian 667 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: leaders here, and so can you just talk about servant leadership, 668 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: maybe your perspective and how it helps the sustainability and 669 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: the effectiveness of a leader, the pivot to the idea 670 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,959 Speaker 1: of being a servant leader as you would define. I'd 671 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: love to hear what you think about that and how 672 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 1: maybe then how does it bring how does that lead 673 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: to maybe I don't know, more rich community even. 674 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I mentioned earlier on I said, we 675 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 2: talk about sovereign leadership as a good concept, and everyone 676 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 2: wants to become a Southern leader. But we didn't kill 677 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 2: somebody to to you as a servant and see how 678 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 2: you react. You know, because I don't tell you, we'll 679 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 2: tell you how it is. Because as a Southern leader, 680 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: you're gonna you're gonna get into some painful areas. You know, 681 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: because you don't just get to do what you do 682 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 2: because you're the leader or because you're in charge. You know, 683 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 2: as a servant leader, you you take time to listen, 684 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 2: to understand, you seek fast, you understand and to be understood. 685 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: And so I think and the essence of a seventh 686 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 2: leader is what Jesus model for us. You know, weakness, vulnerability, time, 687 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: a culturation. You know, people say a similation. I don't 688 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 2: like the word simulation because a similation you lose yourself. 689 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 2: You know, we're not being called into a melting pot. 690 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 2: You know, you're being called into a flower garden. And 691 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 2: that's a culturation. You come in and you are a part, 692 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 2: you understand the culture. You still maintain your your your 693 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 2: your your essence and who you are. But then it 694 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 2: joins in in a beautiful flower garden. It's not a 695 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 2: melting pot. So as a servant leader, you're taking time. 696 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 2: And I think Jesus provides the best way of being 697 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 2: a seven leader. And even when he begins his ministry, 698 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 2: he's not going to be looking for the best of 699 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 2: the best. He's actually works with young guys who are 700 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 2: just a you know, rag tag bunch of volunteers, you know. 701 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: And these twelve dudes that he brought together from every background, 702 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 2: you know, tax collectors, x lots, you know, all kinds. 703 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 2: This this rag tag, this ragamuffin kind of group. And 704 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: he pulls them together, walks with them for three years 705 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 2: and then leaves them the mandate to take the gospel 706 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 2: to the world. And today, Jem, you and I here 707 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 2: because of that group of people. They had a seventh leader, 708 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,720 Speaker 2: you know, but his ways of leading were not a program. 709 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: It was a person, you know. It was life and life. 710 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: It was you know, willing to walk with them. Hey, 711 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 2: come on, let's get on the boat. Let's go on 712 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 2: the other side. And then in that yes, yes, there's 713 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: a there's a storm. You know, they're walking around a wheatfield. 714 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: That says, how come the wheat and the tears are 715 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 2: growing together. It's such a beautiful life on life leadership. 716 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 2: And I don't think we have time for that. Our 717 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: our organizations have made us lose the organism, you know, 718 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 2: in the organism with the person. You know. So we're 719 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 2: we're being led by organizations, were being led by machinery 720 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 2: and mechanisms, and we've lost the essence of what the 721 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 2: organization began there in the first place, which is the 722 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 2: people themselves. You know. So when you look at when 723 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 2: I think about seven leadership, from my perspective, it's a 724 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 2: very different thing. It's it's it's it's gonna take. It's 725 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 2: gonna cost you, It really is gonna cost you. But 726 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 2: it's a good thing. People talk about it because a 727 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 2: good thing. You know, I think greenleafhy isnt who kind 728 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 2: of helped you know? You know, cutapull that word. And 729 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 2: everybody says, I'm a seven leader, Let's create seven leaders. 730 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 2: But if you're really are seven leaders, what happens when 731 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 2: you're treated as well? That is what will show you. 732 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 2: Will you know, will not know what inside until you squeezed, 733 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 2: you know, And seven leadership is it's not an easy thing. 734 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 2: The king of kings, a lot of lords, the one 735 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 2: who created everything, the intricacies, the complexities we see, was 736 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 2: not too proud to lay that all down and come 737 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 2: in the form of humanity. And you know what happened 738 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 2: to him. You know, he was mistreated. He grew up 739 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 2: in obscurity, he was raised up in poverty. Are we 740 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 2: willing to be that kind of a servant leader or 741 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 2: do you want a servant leader who is still large 742 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 2: and in charge. That's a different concept, you know, even 743 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 2: I'm still grappling with it myself, for sure. 744 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 1: For sure, what I'm wondering, can you can you even 745 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: get a little more personal for us because you work, 746 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: you serve in a very large southern California church in 747 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: a very wealthy area with you know, there's venues. You know, 748 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: how do you keep this servant leader? How what does 749 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: that look like? Do you slow down time? Are you 750 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: with people in these ways? Is it? I would imagine 751 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: it would be difficult in the machine you just described. 752 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 2: Oh yeah it is. It's tough. But then that's when 753 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 2: you and that's why even the book itself came out 754 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 2: of It's not a book, it's what our global strategy 755 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 2: has been for our church. So basically, when we wrote 756 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 2: out a global strategy, we wrote it in that way. 757 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,879 Speaker 2: So the essence of that book is it's the four 758 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 2: main aspects of it is theology, and then we're talking 759 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 2: about philosophy, and then we're talking about ethos which is 760 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 2: postures that we have to change. And so there's five 761 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 2: postures that I recommend that we change, and then ultimately 762 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 2: it affects how our practice. So the essence the book 763 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 2: itself is our global strategy. So in fact, the way 764 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 2: the book came about was when I was working on 765 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 2: something else, somebody says, where is this thinking from? And 766 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 2: I said, well, we have a way of thinking that 767 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 2: I kind of helped develop. And then it says, can 768 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 2: I see it? And I showed them my five side 769 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 2: and says, when are you writing that book? I said, 770 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 2: what book? I said that your strategy is actually a book. 771 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 2: I said, I'm not an author. I don't write books. 772 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 2: I just like to be with people. And he said, 773 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 2: this is actually a book, and I think you should 774 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 2: put it together. And that's how it came to be. 775 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 2: So the entire book is literally The essence of what 776 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 2: we're talking about is we have to think theology is 777 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 2: the starting point. We have to look at global trends 778 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 2: and think about what are some global trends that have 779 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 2: happened around the world. What are some global leaders that 780 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 2: are you know, we need to listen to. Are we 781 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 2: listening to just the leaders that have a microphone, which 782 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: most of the time happens to be the West. You know, 783 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 2: they've got the platform, they have the money. And then postures, 784 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 2: It's like, how what are posters need to think? And 785 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 2: then how does that change how we practice things? So 786 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 2: that is the essence of that. But I'll tell you 787 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 2: that when you get into this idea of Southern leadership 788 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,760 Speaker 2: and bring it together. It not only changes the people 789 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 2: that I lead, it also changes so for example, I 790 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 2: remember the first time I came to MINUS church, you know, 791 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 2: I challenged them and I said, hey, what you guys 792 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 2: are doing is not right and the way, so you know, 793 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 2: and that's not anybody in America wants to hear that. 794 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 2: And I just came in guns a blaze. And I think, 795 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,959 Speaker 2: of course, in every place that I went to, people 796 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 2: wouldn't give us much attention because we're young boys. I 797 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 2: was only twenty five or twenty four in six, I think, 798 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 2: and we're telling people who experience the missions that what 799 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,359 Speaker 2: you're doing is not going to help US's actually hurting us. 800 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 2: You know. Eventually a book was written about that, you know, 801 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 2: when helping hurts. But we used to talk about that 802 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 2: a long time before that. And and but I was 803 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 2: confronted with my own you know, right, because one of 804 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 2: the ways they used to come is just blast people 805 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,799 Speaker 2: and tell them, hey, what you're doing is wrong. And 806 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 2: then in my first meeting with somebody at Minus, I 807 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 2: was so convicted that I went back home and I 808 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 2: thought to myself, I've actually become what Americans are to us. 809 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 2: They show up, they tell us. What we're doing is 810 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 2: wrong and what we need is what we have instead 811 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 2: of taking the time to actually listen and learn who 812 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 2: these people are. And as I got to know that 813 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 2: people actually said appreciating and I learned that there was 814 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 2: much for me to learn there. So Minus became a 815 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 2: place where I was being mutually formed. So it wasn't 816 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 2: just me forming them. I have been formed in ways 817 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 2: that I can never describe, whether it's you know, morally, emotionally, mentally, 818 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 2: I have been I talk about the three things that 819 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 2: every human being needs is to be known, to belong, 820 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 2: and to be valued. And that's what has happened at 821 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 2: Minus for me, and it is happening mutually so to 822 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 2: be fully known and fully loved, because most people think, 823 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 2: if you fully know me, would you really love me? 824 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 2: And I felt that that's what happened, is that I 825 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 2: got to be known and you know, and I got 826 00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 2: to be loved. And to be fully known means that 827 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 2: your vulnerability will come out and the weaknesses and your 828 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 2: failures and and this is some of the things I 829 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 2: even talk about. But then the longing to belong is 830 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 2: a longing for love. How you know you love someone 831 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 2: is when you make them belong you know, because how 832 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 2: do you express love by belonging? And so there's that longing. 833 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 2: And then the third longing is the longing to be valued, 834 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 2: and that's saying that you have something to bring to 835 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 2: the table. And that's why even being brought to the table, 836 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,359 Speaker 2: not many people will bring an African guy and say, hey, 837 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 2: come and sit to the table and help us shape 838 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,359 Speaker 2: our missions. No nobody ever do that. But minors did 839 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 2: that for me too. So as you can tell, it's mutual. 840 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 2: That whole idea is mutual. I'm being changed, I'm being formed, 841 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,240 Speaker 2: I'm belonging, and I get to do that with the people. 842 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 2: So you're present with people, you're walking with them. It's 843 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 2: a daily thing, it's a it's an excavation, it's a time, 844 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 2: it's unharried, you know. And so and then what ended 845 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 2: up happening is that once you do that, then what 846 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 2: it leads to is too deeper formation that leads to 847 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 2: sustainable essence at the back end, because now people not 848 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 2: become about it's not about me doing a project, not 849 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,879 Speaker 2: self interest. This becomes about development, and development means that 850 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 2: you have to then take time to understand what are 851 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 2: the real issues, you know, because that's one of the 852 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 2: things they used to tell people is that you have 853 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,360 Speaker 2: diagnosed our The way you've diagnosed our problems is actually wrong. 854 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 2: And because of diagnosing it wrong, you've been addressing symptoms 855 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 2: and not systemic issues. But when you take time and 856 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,279 Speaker 2: you understand the culture, you realize, oh, Africa is really 857 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 2: actually the richest continent in terms of natural resources, then 858 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 2: why is it dealing with object poverty? You know? Then 859 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 2: that question leads to Okay, then maybe God to don 860 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 2: need is not more weals or more schools and more this, 861 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 2: it's there's something else that we need to and I 862 00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 2: think the essence is helping the Africancy themselves as as 863 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 2: the solution makers of their own continents. Africa will not 864 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 2: be changed from the outside and it will be change 865 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 2: from the inside out. But we have abdicated that because 866 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 2: you've got all these people coming to tell you, let's 867 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 2: show you how to do this, instead of saying, you know, 868 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 2: let's bring these Africans and let them be the ones 869 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 2: to lead us and we come. Our work of coming 870 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 2: besides them is only catalytic. It's not studying anything new. 871 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,359 Speaker 2: And so that's what even at that mine as we do. 872 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 2: We don't start anything globally. We catalyze and collaborate with 873 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 2: the global church to advance a great commission. Our work 874 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 2: is catalytic. You come in, you speed up a reaction. 875 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 2: But then a catalyst not only speeds up a reaction, 876 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 2: it also leaves no residue of itself, you know, And 877 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 2: so that's the essence of it. And so it then 878 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,359 Speaker 2: leads to the sustainable aspects because then you realize, oh, 879 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 2: we don't need more child from I think go back 880 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,320 Speaker 2: to traditional African community, there was nothing like an orphan 881 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 2: because you are immediately taken in by your family. You know, 882 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 2: we don't create institutions for kids. Kids will actually belongs 883 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 2: to a family because it's a communal family thing. So 884 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,880 Speaker 2: it changes how we then respond even to development and 885 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,320 Speaker 2: how to help things change. So, but it's very slow 886 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 2: and it's not it's not attractive to most Westerners. 887 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can totally see that. Oh, I just love 888 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:29,759 Speaker 1: everything you're saying. Christian. It's very God centered, christ centered. Uh, 889 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,360 Speaker 1: you're looking at being organic again, bringing up the term narrative. 890 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: You're looking for wisdom, servanthood, being a catalyst again, all 891 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: of these things are very real, very organic. I'm consuming, 892 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: but also, as you said, not quick. So I just 893 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,279 Speaker 1: love everything you're saying. I'm so glad we're having this 894 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 1: conversation because it's it is. It fits in very well 895 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,719 Speaker 1: with what we what we talk about in our own 896 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,920 Speaker 1: way here and unheard living. I'm wondering, is there anything 897 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,880 Speaker 1: that you would that we didn't talk about, that you 898 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: would want to say? Again, remembering that we here are, 899 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: the people who are listening to us are mostly they 900 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 1: are their hard working Christian leaders trying to do their 901 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,400 Speaker 1: best to serve God in all the various ways that 902 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: they do. What would you say to them now, even 903 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 1: as a pastoral blessing or some form of encouragement. 904 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what i'd what I'd say is something 905 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,400 Speaker 2: that I bought from a thirteen year old daughter. We 906 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:34,360 Speaker 2: were recently in India and she got a chance to 907 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 2: speak to these pastors who've gone through such atrocious stuff. 908 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 2: I mean, it's incredible, But she got a thirteen year 909 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 2: old girl and she says, I don't look like my dad, 910 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,279 Speaker 2: I don't look like my mom. So my wife is 911 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,279 Speaker 2: a blue eyed blown from South Dakota, and you know 912 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 2: I'm an African guy from Kenya, I've been married for 913 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,799 Speaker 2: fifteen years. We have this beautiful thirteen year old kid 914 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,840 Speaker 2: that is such a joy. And then she said, I 915 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 2: don't look like my dad. I don't look like my mom, 916 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,160 Speaker 2: you know so? And then she says who am I? 917 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 2: And then she said she quoted I think someone thirty 918 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 2: nine and she says, I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. And 919 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 2: then she said, if you don't know who you are, 920 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,440 Speaker 2: then how you're going to tell people about fact? And 921 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 2: I just thought to myself, maybe I should just pray 922 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,360 Speaker 2: and close out that meeting because it was so profound 923 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 2: in myself, you know, this girl just saying that. I 924 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,319 Speaker 2: think I think for every leader is, you know, is 925 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:34,480 Speaker 2: understanding understanding who you are, Because as you understand who 926 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,759 Speaker 2: you are, and you get to understand your essence and 927 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,880 Speaker 2: the things that make you, and then you would you 928 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 2: would then serve out of a full heart, not out 929 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,240 Speaker 2: of an empty heart. Because I think we are going 930 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 2: out there and that's why we get so hurried and 931 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:56,000 Speaker 2: so rushed and so given to Rois and KPIs is 932 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,839 Speaker 2: because we're trying to feel avoiding us. And I think 933 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 2: understanding who we are in him is such a beautiful thing, 934 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,760 Speaker 2: knowing that He creators in his image, ticuated with inherent 935 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,879 Speaker 2: worth and dignity. There's nothing you need to do. God 936 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,440 Speaker 2: doesn't need you to do anything. You know he he 937 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,880 Speaker 2: doesn't use you because he needs you. Heases you because 938 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,920 Speaker 2: he loves you. And so what if we served and 939 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 2: did everything from a full heart other than an empty heart? 940 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,839 Speaker 2: How would that change things? You know, we're not trying 941 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 2: to prove anything. His finished work has has has given 942 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,839 Speaker 2: us what we get to do, and so we go 943 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 2: out serving because of what He's done for us. And 944 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 2: so it actually changes the way we do it. You know, 945 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,439 Speaker 2: we are we're maybe slower to understand we are. We're trying, 946 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,799 Speaker 2: We're not trying to feel anything. So I think I'll 947 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 2: use that from my daughter, is that unless you know 948 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,560 Speaker 2: who you are, how do you tell people of who 949 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,120 Speaker 2: he is? You know? And so I think understanding that 950 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,120 Speaker 2: is such a beautiful thing, and going to serve out 951 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 2: of a full heart, not other than an empty heart. 952 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:10,399 Speaker 1: So good, thank you, Thank you so much, Christian love 953 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,880 Speaker 1: our conversation. Go out and get his book. People are 954 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 1: the Wealth, and make your way through all those the 955 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: flow of the paradigm, and maybe encouraged and changed. So 956 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 1: thank you again, so much. 957 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 2: Thank you John, thank you for having me, and thank 958 00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,520 Speaker 2: you for having such a beautiful podcast with a great 959 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:35,960 Speaker 2: title with a great name. I resonated with it wholeheartedly. 960 00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 1: Wonderful. Well, thanks again, thank you for joining me on 961 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,520 Speaker 1: the unhead Living podcast. You can download free resources and 962 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: learn more about us at unhurried Living dot com, and 963 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 1: please subscribe and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues. 964 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,879 Speaker 1: We'd also like to thank our partner Life Audio. Check 965 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,240 Speaker 1: out their other faith centered podcasts at lifeaudio dot com. 966 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,520 Speaker 1: Blessings to you as you make your way