1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 2: There are wounds that don't respond to quick answers, places 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: in us that don't soften through more information, more striving, 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 2: or even more effort. Some healing only begins when we 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: finally experience a space that is safe enough to tell 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 2: the truth, a space free from shame, noise, or formulas. 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: What if healing is less about fixing ourselves and more 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 2: about being compassionately witnessed. What if the nervous system of 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: the soul and the presence of God are far more 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 2: connected than we've realized. Hi, friends, I'm Jem Faddling and 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: this is the Unhurried Living Podcast where we inspire you 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. Today's conversation 13 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: explores the sacred intersection of neuroscience, contemplative healing, trauma integration, 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: and the deep wisdom of Christian mysticism. And at the 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: center of it all is a gentle but profound invitation 16 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: to become people who create ecosystems of grace within ourselves 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 2: and for one another. After a word from our sponsor, 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: we'll dive into our conversation for today. As you're listening 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: to this podcast, I'd love for you to follow us 20 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: and If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe. It's free 21 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 2: and it helps unhurried living be discovered by more people. 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, well, I'm glad you're joining us today 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: for a thoughtful and deeply hopeful conversation with Susan Carson. 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: Susan is the founder and executive director of Roots and Branches, 25 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 2: a nonprofit ministry in Cincinnati offering spiritual direction and contemplative healing. 26 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: She's a spiritual director, speaker, author, and host of the 27 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: Rooted Intentionally podcast. She also holds a Master of Theology 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: and Culture from Saint Stephen's University. In today's episode, we 29 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: explore the themes behind Susan's work on contemplative healing and 30 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: trauma integration, where the insights of interpersonal neurobiology meet the 31 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: compassionate wisdom of Julian of Norwich. Together, we talk about 32 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: the ways trauma shapes both the brain and the soul, 33 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: while healing often happens relationally rather than transactionally, and how 34 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 2: contemplative presence can help create what Susan calls noise free, 35 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: shame free, formula free spaces for restoration. This conversation touches 36 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: the work of thinkers like Stephen Porges and Bonnie Badnach. 37 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: But it remains deeply grounded in the tenderness and companionship 38 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: of Jesus. If you've ever felt exhausted by overly clinical 39 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: approaches to healing or discouraged by spiritual formulas that left 40 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: little room for your actual humanity, I think this conversation 41 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: will feel like a deep breath. Enjoy my conversation with 42 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: Susan Carson. Well, Hello, Susan Carson, Welcome. 43 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: Thank you Jim. It's so good to be here today. 44 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're always glad when people like you say yes 45 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 2: to us. And I just finished your book last week, 46 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: and I already told you how much I love it. 47 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: There's so much goodness. And I don't know if this 48 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: is going to come up in what we say, but 49 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: it is your master's thesis and so you know, yes, 50 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: but I can't say that it read as academic. I 51 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: really felt your heart come through and you chose the 52 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: most amazing quotes. So I mean, it's just it's a 53 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: beautiful book. 54 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Yeah. I tried to keep it 55 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: accessible for people. It is it is. 56 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: If someone would have told me, I mean, I wouldn't 57 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: have known unless I knew to me, it just feels 58 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: like a book that someone's written, such as yourself, who's 59 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: trying to help us have an understanding of the intersection 60 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: here of love and healing. And so I can't wait 61 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: to dig into the conversation too. I know so well. 62 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: Early in your book you write, of course you're talking 63 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: about Julian of Norwich, but you're writing that both Julian 64 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: and modern neuroscience point us towards safe contemplative connection and 65 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: this phrase which I love, co suffering love, and that 66 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: these are the path toward our healing, healing our alienation, 67 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: restoring our sense of union. So this is multi layered 68 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: with a lot of big words. So I'm wondering, can 69 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: you just give us a little bit of an intro 70 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: to the idea here of what you're unpacking? 71 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: Yees. So we'll start with Julienne, who I've come to 72 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: love so much, and she through her a contemplative, really 73 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: full body encounter with Christ on the cross, and then 74 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: twenty years plus of contemplation of this encounter she has 75 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: on what she thinks is her deathbed turns out not 76 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: to be. Part of her message to us comes as 77 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: she's contemplating conversing with God, seeking to understand all that 78 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: she's seen and experienced. Is that she talks a lot 79 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: about seek to the beholding, and for her this is 80 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: central that it's a central part of what we are 81 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: to be about in our life. Here it is beholding 82 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: of Christ, beholding of Christ on the cross, Christ as 83 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: co suffering love, and that sense of co suffering love 84 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: or from the Greek word kenosis from Philippians two, there's 85 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: a big there's another big word, but it means that 86 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: in Philippians too, it's that Christ emptied himself, that he 87 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: emptied himself, that God emptied himself into humanity in Christ. 88 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: He did it in creation, and he did he does 89 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: it in our creation. And that is co suffering all forgiving, 90 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: self giving love, the full giving of God's Self, and 91 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: that we're to seek to behold this. And for Julian 92 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: that doesn't just mean the seeing of it, it's also 93 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: the sense of behold, be held, beheld in that love, 94 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: and the seeing is our transformation that as we see 95 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: this love in Christ, and then in contemplation, as we 96 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: find God, that even the Trinity within us, the mirror 97 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: of love of the same love in us, showing us 98 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: who we are showing us who we really are, that 99 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: we are becoming this love, that we are becoming like Christ, 100 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: that this is our that this is the whole journey, 101 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: in all the rising and falling of our journeys, that 102 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: this is the point. And then we find this amazing 103 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: to me anyway, intersection with neuroscience and neurobiology, which are 104 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: telling us that we regulate ourselves through one another, that 105 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: we literally are nervous systems are set up to co regulate, 106 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: that we're mirrorring. As I see God in you, I 107 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: would say Christ in you, the peace of Christ in you, 108 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: and the result a regulated nervous system in you that 109 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: causes my body to enter into the space of safety 110 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: where healing can happen. Julian talks about safety in that 111 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: place of being held by God. She's probably most famous 112 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: or one of her most famous things is the hazelnut. 113 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: Seeing the hazelnut shaped object in this hand and realizing 114 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: that that hazel nut is everything and the hand is 115 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: God's hand, and she says that everything is safely held. 116 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: And so it's knowing that we are safe in God, 117 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: the God who loves us all forgiving, co suffering with 118 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: us in our suffering I'm not just observing it actually 119 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: suffering with us and in us, and that in a sense, 120 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: this is actually neurologically, biologically happening with us as humans. 121 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: Science is now giving us this way to understand what's happening. 122 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: So we're co regulating with one another, and we're in 123 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: a sense co regulating with God, which creates the sense 124 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: of safety and the space where we can begin to 125 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: heal the trauma that we've all encountered in life. So 126 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: I'll stop talking and you can ask another question, is 127 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: this making Am I making sense? 128 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: It's all I could just listen. I mean, I'm I 129 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: feel like I'm co regulating right now because. 130 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: I just just. 131 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: The pace and the tone with which you're speaking to me, 132 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: and how much you're just describing God's love just feels 133 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: really good to me even right now. So I think 134 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: there's just proof in the pudding here. But I mean, 135 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: you know, for those who are listening, maybe we could 136 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: even start here too. Just what you say sounds so inviting, 137 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: It sounds rich and real and helpful. And I personally 138 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: have benefited from this kind of therapy, which we can 139 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: talk about in a bit. But what about someone who 140 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 2: just feels like, Wow, that's I don't even know how 141 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: to even reach toward what you're saying right now. You know, 142 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: some of us who are listening are going, oh wow, 143 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 2: I can you know that makes sense? And I can 144 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: you know they might have a felt sense of being 145 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: able to move forward. Let's talk for a minute to 146 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: the person who goes, wow, that's amazing. I have no 147 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: idea how to move toward this co suffering love. What 148 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 2: would you say to them? 149 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it can be. It can be a challenge to 150 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: access this if it feels new to us, and I 151 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: always encourage people. I think just some silence contemplation is 152 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: that space of quiet that sometimes the door opens as 153 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: we begin to get quiet, which is a practice, right 154 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: it's a spiritual practice because we're not always accustomed to it, 155 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: and so quieting breathing. I think breathing can really help 156 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: open this for people. And then sometimes calling to mind 157 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: picture a scene with Jesus maybe that we've really connected 158 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: with in scripture, really focusing in on what is Jesus 159 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: really like? And sometimes it's helpful to think of if 160 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: that feels hard or weird, who's a really safe person 161 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: in my life? Is it a parent? Is it a grandparent, 162 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: is it a mentor or teacher? And how does it 163 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: feel when I'm with them? How do I experience God's 164 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: love through them? And a lot and a lot of 165 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: this is embodied. So it's helping our bodies calm down 166 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: and get quiet and connect and maybe even engaging our imagination. 167 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: Some of us were taught that our imaginations are or 168 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: maybe a little sketchy and not to be trusted. And 169 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: I've come to see the imagination as this part of 170 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: our brain that's sort of wired for connection with God 171 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: in terms of hearing and seeing, and so beginning to 172 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: imagine this Jesus that we see in scripture, or what 173 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: if Jesus is like this really safe person where we've 174 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: experienced love and get quiet and breathe and maybe just 175 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: welcome that and see what happens. 176 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: Beautiful, spoken like a true spiritual director, you're inviting us 177 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: to sort of step out of the regular just stream 178 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 2: that we're in of just moving through life. Give yourself 179 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: the gift of pausing for a bit, breathing, imagining. 180 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: Receiving us. 181 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, beautiful, thank you. Well, I hope you guys 182 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 2: will take that to heart. When you were talking about 183 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: envisioning Jesus. My go to girl in the Gospels is 184 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: the bleeding woman. I mean, I just love That's my 185 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 2: favorite interaction of Jesus with another person because of all 186 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: all the barriers that were cross to even have you 187 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: know that she would touch a rabbi, you know, and 188 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: she was unclean, and the grace that He gave her, 189 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: I just think it says everything. I just think, you know, 190 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: and then the dignity he gave her daughter, you know, 191 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: go your faith has healed you. I mean, so much dignity. 192 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: Though. 193 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: To me, that's the place I can go to when 194 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: I feel like I need to connect because of how 195 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: he received her. And so I thinking any any of 196 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: the interactions to mine that speak to you is a 197 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 2: beautiful place to begin. So I love that. And this 198 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: kind of leads into the next sort of set of 199 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: terminology that I wanted to bring up that you wrote 200 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: about Jesus really created this. He had a noise free, 201 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: shame free, formula free space. I love that. And I 202 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 2: can't remember if you came up with that or if 203 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: that was cobbled together from others, but I'd love for 204 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: you to talk about that. How maybe from a couple 205 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: of angles. You know, first of all, what is all that? 206 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: And then maybe how might we be people who would 207 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: create that for others? 208 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Yeah, that those words, that way of framing 209 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: it really came to me over years of just sitting 210 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: with people, largely in spiritual direction kind of settings, inner healing, 211 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: contemplative healing kind of settings, and noticing that all the 212 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: things I thought I needed to do ten years ago 213 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: to help people, Jesus didn't seem that interested in them. 214 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: Like when we actually made space for people to encounter 215 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: meet with, imagine Jesus with them. Jesus was Jesus was 216 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: really seemed primarily interested in being with them and their suffering, 217 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: in showing them and expressing his love. He never seemed 218 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: to think that they were innately sinful or wicked or 219 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: had like twelve things to repent of before they could 220 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: have a conversation. So over years I'm like, maybe I 221 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: do less, Like maybe I just do less. Maybe this 222 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: is about the kind of space that we're creating for people. 223 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: And then just well, what is a space like? Well, 224 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: it's filled with quiet, noise free, it's me listening hopefully 225 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: while listening reflectively to give them space to hear their 226 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: own hearts, to give them space to hear God, and 227 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: allowing silence, not having to rush in with the next 228 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: thing to do or my ideas about what they might 229 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: need or what might be helpful, shamefree, not bringing any 230 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: of my opinions or judgments about what they might need 231 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: or what might be helpful to them, just leaving those 232 00:17:54,440 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: outside the door, and really emptying myself to the extent 233 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: that I can on in a given day of my 234 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: own ego in need to be helpful, and then formula 235 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: free that there are no three easy steps to anything, 236 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: and that this is a journey over a lifetime, that 237 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: even our healing of our trauma is a journey over 238 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: our lifetime. And so my question became, Jesus, what's for today? 239 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: We're not gonna do the whole thing in a day 240 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: or a week or a month, And that I can 241 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: trust Christ in this person, and I can trust this 242 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: person for their journey. And so I become more of 243 00:18:54,480 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: a following companion and less of a leader orchestrating and offering. 244 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: You know, here's the next thing I can. I can, 245 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: I have some wisdom, I can, I have some things 246 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: I can offer, But I just see so much more 247 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: goodness emerge. The more I'm out of the way, the better. 248 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 2: I think. There's a lot of wisdom and patience and 249 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: humility in what you're describing. 250 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 251 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: And I can see why you're saying it takes a while, 252 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 2: because it would it would be it would take a 253 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: while to become that kind of presence, I think, to 254 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 2: be able to lay down your own, as you said, 255 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: your ego, the fixing tendency. 256 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, well we're taught, you know, I was raised to 257 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: be a fixer, not to not fix, and that that's 258 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: the process. What is it? What does it mean to 259 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: become a person who can be this kind of presence 260 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: for people? And please here, I'm still very much process. Partly, 261 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: it's my own healing journey over decades, which results in 262 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: the regulating of my nervous system, my ability to sit 263 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: with people and be quiet and not be agitated and 264 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: need to be heard or seen. It's years of contemp practicing, 265 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: contemplative spirituality in my own life, practicing quiet, practicing silence, solitude. 266 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: Kind of at this point, don't think they're any way 267 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: around those two things, just because of the work that 268 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: happens in us in that kind of space. Yeah, So 269 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: I think in this this book, I think really is 270 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: about It's not about it's not about our formulas or 271 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: our skills or our it's about the kind of people 272 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: that were becoming, that we're becoming more human together, and 273 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: that as this happens, we're becoming an innate, innately healing community. Really, Like, 274 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: how cool would it be? Be? Amazing? Yeah? 275 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's why I like to have 276 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: conversations like this, just to remind us that even in 277 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: my small little life here, I can I can just 278 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 2: learn to become this kind of person to make a 279 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: difference wherever I go, whoever I'm with, and that would matter, Yes, yeah, matter, 280 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 2: because you know, it's on a large scale. It's easy 281 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: to look out at the culture and be nervous just 282 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: the all of the things that are going on. Sure, 283 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 2: but maybe it would make a difference if a bunch 284 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 2: of individuals were learning to be a coregulating safe space. 285 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 2: Ye'd be wonderful, wouldn't that. 286 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: What if that? What if that? What if our churches 287 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: felt like that? What if our poems felt like that? Yeah? 288 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a small thing or not. This isn't 289 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: a side thing because especially with what you said at 290 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: the very beginning. All of these beautiful realities that we 291 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: live within God with us, in us, around us, beholding us, 292 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: you know us, beholding him. All of that beauty is happening, 293 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 2: and it's so easy to be distracted from what centrally 294 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 2: is occurring. Yes, and the freedom we could find as 295 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 2: we lean into that, which is what I think your 296 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: book is trying to say. There's a reality here we 297 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 2: could be aware of this, tap into it, find her 298 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: own healing, and then become an extension of that healing 299 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: for other people. I mean, is that yes, summary. 300 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: Yes, that's that's it, Like there is a way of 301 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: being human together that is innately safe and healing. And yeah, yeah, 302 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: full and rich for sure. 303 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: We'll continue after the break. Well, let's let's swing back 304 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: around to Juliane a little more. Is there more that 305 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 2: you can tell us about her? Why did you leand 306 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: on her? You know, what about who she was and 307 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: what she said drew you to her? 308 00:23:53,920 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, Honestly, when I started my research, I 309 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: just I had read some of Julian and I just 310 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: felt so drawn to her. But I sort of picked her, 311 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I think it's here. I hope it's here. 312 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: I'm about to spend a lot of time on this 313 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: gut instinct that this is where I need, this is 314 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: where I need to be. So I'm, you know, reading, 315 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: meditating on her. She's Julian is a late fourteenth early 316 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: fifteenth century English mystic. She lived during the time of 317 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: the plague. There were there was war, there were church schisms. 318 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: Does it sound at all like today? Yeah, so she 319 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: knew trauma. We know next to nothing about her except 320 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: the book that she left us, which is called Revelations 321 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: of Love, and her recordings of her contemplations, her conversations, 322 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: the things that God showed her in her initial encounter. 323 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: I guess we could call it a vision. And then 324 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: those twenty plus years she lived as what was called 325 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: an anchoress in an anchor hold, And the anchor hold 326 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: was basically a cellar room that probably sat attached to 327 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: a church or next to a church, and she would 328 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: have had a window into the church so she could 329 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: participate in communion, and she would have had a window 330 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: out to the community. So she's a bit unique in 331 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: that she's a monastic kind of person, but people are 332 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: coming to her window every day to talk to her. 333 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: So she's a spiritual director, so she's not isolated from 334 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: the world. She's people are coming for her counsel and 335 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: her wisdom. She's I think it's cool. She's the first 336 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: woman to have written a book in what we would 337 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: call English, and it's a beautiful, very readable book if 338 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: you find a good modern translation. And she basically lays 339 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: out an incredible theology of the goodness and love of God, 340 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: of our own internal goodness, and how we're held in love. 341 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: Her most famous quote is probably all shall be well, 342 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: and all shall be well, and all manner of things 343 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 1: shall be well. And she can say that because she's 344 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: wrestled with God through these twenty years about well, what 345 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: about suffering? What about that she's seeing right outside her window, 346 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: right in the middle to the plag She's wrestling with 347 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: all these questions, and she ends her book ends with 348 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: so I ask God, you know, in light of all 349 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: of this, what's the point? And the point is love. 350 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: It's just about love. It's just about God is love. 351 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: We're held in love, and that all shall be well 352 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: because we are held safely in this love. Yeah. So 353 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: it's a beautiful read. It's not long. I think people 354 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: would love it. 355 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by this because you've got a woman who 356 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 2: basically spent time in a little room and again she 357 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 2: did see people. But that's not even her name. We 358 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: don't know or name right Norwich. 359 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: Now she's named after the church in the town where she. 360 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: Was, right. I'm fascinated by this, that there's this woman 361 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 2: that we don't actually know but has left such a 362 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: lasting mark that we are enjoying her the richness of 363 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 2: her life today. I just I think that's so beautiful 364 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: and that whatever that calling was on her, or the 365 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: giftedness that allowed people to even know about her through 366 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: that little window. I mean, it's just hard to imagine 367 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: because you think of today with social media and you know, 368 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 2: you can talk to millions of people around the world instantaneously, 369 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: and she was just in this little room and people 370 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: would talk to her through a window. And here's a 371 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 2: book we're reading, you know, centuries later. 372 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: It's amazing to me, it is amazing. Yeah, she's incredible. 373 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: So good. 374 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 2: Well, let's let's go back to another word you say, 375 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: because we've You've said a lot of cool words as 376 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 2: we've been moving along here, and I just want to 377 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: keep circling back. You use the word beholding, right, be held, behold. 378 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: Talk to me about why beholding is so central to healing. 379 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: You really impact that beautifully in the second section, but 380 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: I'd love to really just hear more about that. Why 381 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: is that important? 382 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that we become what we see, we're meant. We're 383 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: made for an experience, for an embodied experience of God 384 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: and of one another. And part of how that happens 385 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: is through our seeing, our imaginative seeing, our spiritual vision. However, 386 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: you might talk about that and that that seeing actually 387 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: changes our brains, so even our when we talk about 388 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: healingmatic memories are embedded in our brains and our bodies 389 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: and held a bit frozen in isolation. To access those, 390 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: we need a sense of safety because our trauma is 391 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: stored there, and in beholding, a safe loving presence in 392 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: God and or in one another becomes safe. Right we've 393 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: talked about safety To access those memories, to go ahead 394 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: and pull them out into relationship, into loving relationship that 395 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: can hold hold our suffering with us, so that those 396 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: memories can be changed. So when we see something different 397 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: in a memory, or when we have a picture of 398 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: God in a certain way, in our brain and we 399 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: see something different in God or in Jesus, that memory, 400 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: that picture is changed. It doesn't go back in the same, 401 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: it goes back in differently. And that's when new neuropathways 402 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: begin to form in our brains, so that we actually 403 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: begin to live differently. So seeing, beholding, gazing is all 404 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: part of that. It's part of our attachment. Right when 405 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: we're babies, gazing into our mothers or fathers, our caretakers 406 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: eyes and finding our sense of self, ourselves in them. 407 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: That same sense with God, that we're gazing into the 408 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: face even the eyes of God and finding ourselves, knowing 409 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: who we truly are. Or trauma will tell us lots 410 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: of things about ourselves that aren't true, but we find 411 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: the truth in that gaze, in that encounter, in that 412 00:32:53,640 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: meeting with God, with Christ and with Christ and another. 413 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: And that's innately healing so good. 414 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: I you know, when I was reading, I forget what 415 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: section it was. Maybe it was the second section where 416 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 2: you were describing this whole dynamic of being held in 417 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 2: so many I mean, if you guys just get the book, 418 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: even just for all the quotes that are in there. 419 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: I mean, Susan has an amazing bibliography in there, and 420 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: the quotes that she pulled out to share within her 421 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 2: book are all gold. You know, Gabor Mate is in 422 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 2: there and Chuck to Grote, of course, Julian of Norwich, 423 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: Peter Levine. I mean, the list goes on of the 424 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: amazing wisdom that it's being dulled out here. But when 425 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 2: you were in the section describing this healing, I realized 426 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 2: that I have benefited from this kind of therapy. But 427 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 2: my therapist, this was before this was sort of in 428 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 2: the zeitgeist, all of these words like I wasn't I didn't. 429 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 2: I wasn't talking about venture, vagels, data, neuroscience. 430 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. 431 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 2: Was when I was in my forties. This is a 432 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 2: while back. But my therapist was so highly skilled. He 433 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: had a version of IFS sort of combined with just 434 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:26,320 Speaker 2: being a very intuitive, spirit filled Christian and using these 435 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 2: healing models that you spoke of, where we would go back, 436 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 2: you know, he would bring me into a memory and 437 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 2: I would be there in a very feeling state, and 438 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 2: he would be the safe companion in the room, but 439 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 2: he would also bring Jesus in. Yeah, and to me, 440 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 2: I remember in my own therapy, I was a part 441 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 2: of my therapy. Of course it was happening to me 442 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 2: like this was happening, but I was also there was 443 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 2: a part of me that was kind of watching it, 444 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 2: going wow, this is really like amazing. And what you're 445 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 2: describing just anecdotally a test to the reality of the 446 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 2: sense of the presence of Jesus with me and then 447 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 2: the rewriting that we did. You know, what could have 448 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: been said, what could have been done in the room 449 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 2: at that time, Yeah, you know, and there is something 450 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,720 Speaker 2: very mysterious about that, but very real. I was changed, 451 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: I was healed. I came out after years of walking 452 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: through all these I came out in a way a 453 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 2: different person, more free, less felt sense of the trauma. 454 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: And so I just believe in this so much. And 455 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: that's why I really wanted to talk to you, because 456 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 2: you've done such a beautiful job of describing all of 457 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: the dynamics of what the healing looks like from the 458 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 2: different angles from love, from beholding, you know, from the 459 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 2: safe companioning presence, paired with all the neuro science you know, jargon, 460 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 2: and so I think you've just done a beautiful job 461 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 2: describing all of that and it's real. I'm attesting to 462 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: the fact that it works, and I'd like to hear 463 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 2: based on I mean, that was just a tiny bit 464 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 2: of my story. But just in your work with people. 465 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 2: I know you're a spiritual director, but do you does 466 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: that look different because of the specialty you're in. Do 467 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: you focus on trauma? Do you do healing prayer you know. 468 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: Happen with people? Yeah? Well, and let me be quick 469 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: to add, I've experienced this in my own life as well. 470 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: Like I know this is true because I've benefited from 471 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: it as well in deeply healing ways. Yeah, so, because 472 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: I do you have a bit of experience in and 473 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: templative inner healing. As a spiritual director, that's always something 474 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: we can bring in if a client is interested if 475 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: something comes up along the way. We're not digging for trauma, 476 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: but if something comes up and they're interested in taking 477 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: a few minutes in the course of a session to 478 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 1: stop to be present, to ask Holy Spirit to help 479 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: them to be present to a memory where would Jesus 480 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: want to meet them in their trauma which can be 481 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: feel scary for people, but he never does it in 482 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: any way that's re traumatizing or reviolate or reviolating at all. 483 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: It's always actually quite beautiful to see all the creative 484 00:37:54,920 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: ways that Jesus God shows up up and then we'll 485 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: just take a few moments to see, you know, what 486 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: does Jesus want, How does Jesus show up? What do 487 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: they notice? What does he say, what does he do? 488 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 1: How is he with them? What might he want them 489 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: to know? So it just happens kind of naturally in 490 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: the flow of spiritual direction. Sometimes somebody will ask if 491 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: we can we take a whole session next time to 492 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: really focus on this. Sure we can. But what I 493 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: love about including this in the flow of spiritual direction 494 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: is it just becomes part of the journey, the journey 495 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: that we're all on because we're all kind of continuing 496 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: to heal all the time. I think, so sure, yeah, 497 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Yeah, I think that comes up for me too. 498 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: Here and there we'll stop and we'll listen for the 499 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: spirit or watch for Jesus. Yes, in a pastor a present. 500 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: The situation I just think it is it's always fruitful 501 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: because God is faithful, yes, to show himself because that's 502 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: what's happening. Yes, right, Yeah, we're in the kingdom and 503 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: the Kingdom is at work now, and it's usually just 504 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: me sort of, you know, turning my gaze back to 505 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: what's happened, Yes, being reminded, yes it is. I can 506 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 1: go Julian again for a minute. One of her us 507 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: a story, a parable that the Lord gave her to 508 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 1: sort of give her some understanding, is called the Master 509 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 1: and the Servant. And in the story, the servant loves 510 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: the Master, and the Master asked the servant to go 511 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: do something, and the servant runs off full of joy 512 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: and happiness at doing this thing, and then, through no 513 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: fault of his own, it just falls into a ditch. 514 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,879 Speaker 1: And the problem is that he forgets to look up, 515 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: because when he remembers to look up, he realizes that 516 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: the Master has been there with them, right beside him 517 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: the whole time, and that this is where the gazing 518 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: the beholding right. It's the shift. It's just it's returning 519 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: to that eye to eye, face to face connection with God, 520 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: knowing that he never leaves us, nothing ever separates us. 521 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: He's not mad at us, he's not blaming us. He's 522 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: present right to just lift us out of the ditch. 523 00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: If as we turn and remember that we are always held. 524 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,760 Speaker 2: So good. I wonder if you would take that idea 525 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 2: that you just that the story you just shared and 526 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 2: what you said about it, bringing in some more of 527 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 2: the vocabulary from the book just to bring you know, 528 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 2: you talked about neuroscience, of course, so you talked about 529 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 2: sympathetic era, sympathetic, the ventral vagel state, which these are 530 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,240 Speaker 2: all buzzwords now that are in there if you're watching 531 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 2: and learning together with our felt sense of safety, I mean, 532 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 2: can you just give us a little primmer on those 533 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 2: and then tie it back into what you were just 534 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 2: talking about that the beholding, the gazing to looking up. 535 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:50,919 Speaker 1: M yeah, So when are our unregulated nervous system right, 536 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: we're generally in a sympathetic or a pair of sympathetic state, 537 00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: we're generally quite well and calm and hit peace and rest, 538 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: or we're in some sort of fight or flight or 539 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: freeze or fawn. We're in some sort of trauma response. 540 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 1: And it's and that affects the vegus nerve runs from 541 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: our brain through our whole bodies and its job basically 542 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: is to constantly monitor whether or not we're safe. So 543 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: if the vegus nerve is picking up something that's telling 544 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: me I'm not safe, it's going to kick in to 545 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: fight or flight or freeze or fawn, particularly if we 546 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:50,720 Speaker 1: look around and we don't see any help. We're alone 547 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: in it. Sometimes often there's a sense of just being 548 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 1: trapped or stuck in it and not being able to 549 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: get out or weigh from the danger. And so what 550 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: helps regulate our body is the gaze, the beholding, the 551 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 1: face to face connection with someone Jesus, God with the 552 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:25,359 Speaker 1: body right Jesus, or somebody with me who is in 553 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 1: that who is safe. So they're embodied sense of safety 554 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: in their their vagus nerve. They're a vagual system is 555 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: at rest, is regulated, and my body picks up on that. 556 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: My brain actually reads that and starts to shift my body. Actually, 557 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,240 Speaker 1: you can see that in the in the eyes, the ears, 558 00:43:54,440 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: the tone of voice. The vagus nerve is connected to 559 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: all of that and so and you can't fake it. 560 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: We can try to present as calm, but we all 561 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: sort of have that spidey sense right of I don't 562 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: know about that, right that in the sense of whether 563 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: we can trust that or not. So as safe, well regulated, 564 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: loving presence. Right. We can read it in their eyes, 565 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: we can hear it in their voice, we can see 566 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: it on their face, and that tells literally tells our 567 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: bodies you're safe and you can rest, relax, come out 568 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:54,880 Speaker 1: of those trauma responses into that present, feeling kind of space. 569 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,959 Speaker 2: I've been around people like that, just randomly here and there, 570 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,240 Speaker 2: even just maybe a server at a restaurant. I remember 571 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 2: one time I was up in passa Robles and the 572 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,439 Speaker 2: lady that was serving us, there was something about her 573 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:16,839 Speaker 2: vibe that calmed me. And I didn't know her at all. Yeah, 574 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 2: and I was talking to the people at the table. 575 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 2: I said, don't you think she's amazing? How is she doing? 576 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: What is it? What is it? How is that happening? 577 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 2: But it is fast, you know, it is true that 578 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:37,319 Speaker 2: just our presence can affect another person. And back this 579 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 2: was so many years ago. I definitely didn't have a 580 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 2: didn't have this kind of conversation, this kind of vocabulary 581 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 2: top of mind, so I wouldn't have known to even 582 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 2: talk about it like this. But somehow I think I 583 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,840 Speaker 2: was just sensing her. You know, whatever was going on 584 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 2: with her nervous system was quite lovely, and it literally 585 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,359 Speaker 2: emanated from her to me and made me feel something like, oh, 586 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 2: this is this is lovely. This is Wow. 587 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: I felt like she was. 588 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 2: Sending like just calm toward me. And again she was, 589 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 2: you know, just bringing me my food, but she was 590 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 2: also being a lovely human being that was giving me 591 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 2: a great gift without even knowing it. Yes, and it's 592 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,280 Speaker 2: I mean I'm talking about it at least fifteen years later, wow, 593 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 2: because I remember how it felt to have someone that 594 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 2: I didn't know and sort of emanating an energy that 595 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:35,839 Speaker 2: felt so. 596 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:44,399 Speaker 1: Peaceful. Yes, don't you think that's interesting? It's fascinating right 597 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: that what if our presence, what if our presence is 598 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: the thing, Like, what if it's not all the things 599 00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:01,800 Speaker 1: we think we need to do? What if it's God? 600 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:07,720 Speaker 1: I think it's James Finley talks about the presence is presencing, 601 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: presence is presencing itself all the time. Well, that's in 602 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: us and through us. Yeah, it's a it's a powerful 603 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,760 Speaker 1: it's it's what I hope for in my own life. 604 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 1: That's for sure, that I am that kind of person 605 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:31,480 Speaker 1: within four people. 606 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 2: It's interesting. You know, you've brought us down to almost 607 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,799 Speaker 2: just the total central core here, which of course is love. Yeah, 608 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 2: you know, the great commandment, love the Lord your God 609 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 2: with all your heart soul, mind and strength and love 610 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:55,640 Speaker 2: your neighbor as yourself and how underrated that is and overproduced. Yeah, yeah, 611 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 2: you said, I think you're getting at there's a really 612 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,320 Speaker 2: core simplicity here that is very inviting to me, because 613 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 2: over the course of time, I'm finding myself like unable. 614 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 2: I can't multitask anymore, and so which I never you know, 615 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 2: no one's ever actually able to multitask. But you know 616 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,799 Speaker 2: what I mean, like, I really have to stop doing 617 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 2: one thing so I can do the thing I'm doing. 618 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:22,759 Speaker 1: But what if we. 619 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 2: Biased toward that in all of our life, that if 620 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,359 Speaker 2: there's something else going on, that we drop that and 621 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 2: we come back to love, you know, as the one thing. 622 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 2: What does love mean right now with this person? 623 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:36,320 Speaker 1: Yes? 624 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 2: I think that would go miles if I could remember that. 625 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:46,279 Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. One of the people who who is best 626 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:51,360 Speaker 1: at reminding me of this is my daughter And you know, 627 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 1: she'll be sharing something hard in her life and I'm like, 628 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: want to help, right, and so I'm advising, and da 629 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,279 Speaker 1: da da da da. She'll just look at me. She's like, Mom, 630 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: you're not listening. Wait professional listener here, And uh, like 631 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:14,480 Speaker 1: you're right, and I just start listening. Which basically means 632 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,800 Speaker 1: reflecting what I'm hearing her say, Like, I'm not asking 633 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 1: a bunch of questions even I'm just cash it sounds like, 634 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: And it's just my presence. It is my presence that 635 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: helps her get where she needs to get with it. 636 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 1: It's not my answers or my fixing or it's love, right, 637 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:49,320 Speaker 1: it's me just being loving presence with her in that space. Yeah, 638 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:56,840 Speaker 1: it's love. That's what love looks like. Yeah, presence. Yeah. 639 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 2: Well, to wrap us up here, I want to read 640 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 2: a quote from your book and just get maybe one 641 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 2: last final thought based on what you said here. 642 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: I love this. 643 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 2: I don't remember what page it's on, but I wrote 644 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,719 Speaker 2: it down. You said, we are created a whole, and 645 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,719 Speaker 2: we are in the process of healing toward our real 646 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:19,719 Speaker 2: true selves, becoming who we already are as we are 647 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 2: seen and held face to face in the embodied presence 648 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 2: of co suffering love, love in all holds, all together, 649 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 2: remembering and re wanting us individually and corporately. 650 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:41,800 Speaker 1: Wow. 651 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 2: I feel like that is the summary statement of what 652 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,800 Speaker 2: you're trying to say here. So I love your final 653 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,600 Speaker 2: thoughts on that. Anything else do you want to share 654 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 2: with us? 655 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? Just that I say this a lot. We're becoming 656 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 1: who we already are. We're already fully known, Like this 657 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: is the good news. We're already fully known, fully held, 658 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:13,719 Speaker 1: fully loved. Nothing can separate us from this love. And 659 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,840 Speaker 1: we are constantly on a journey with God and with 660 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:24,280 Speaker 1: others of them becoming. All the things that have happened 661 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: that have left us feeling alienated, experiencing alienation right those 662 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,000 Speaker 1: are as, those are healed. We're returning to that oneness, 663 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:43,279 Speaker 1: that place of union that is our true selves. And 664 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 1: yet we're feeling and growing into our experience of actually 665 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,000 Speaker 1: living in the truth and fullness of that, and that 666 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,760 Speaker 1: I think is the whole journey. 667 00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,960 Speaker 2: So good, well, Susan, I knew I was going to 668 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,240 Speaker 2: enjoy this, and I know we could talk a lot longer. 669 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 2: I told you before we started that I had many 670 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 2: more questions, but I had to keep it. I had 671 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 2: to reduce them because there's a certain time that we 672 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,919 Speaker 2: stick to yes. But I encourage you all go out 673 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,960 Speaker 2: and get the book and be blessed as I was 674 00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,000 Speaker 2: by Susan Carson. So thank you again, Susan. 675 00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,719 Speaker 1: Oh Jim, thank you so much. What a joy and 676 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: a gift. 677 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,200 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me on the unhead Living podcast. 678 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,120 Speaker 2: You can download free resources and learn more about us 679 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 2: at Unhurried Living dot com, and please subscribe and share 680 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,480 Speaker 2: this podcast with your friends and colleagues. We'd also like 681 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,960 Speaker 2: to thank our partner, Life Audio. Check out their other 682 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,719 Speaker 2: faith centered podcasts at lifeaudio dot com. Blessings to you 683 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:48,799 Speaker 2: as you make your way