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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Hey Arreon, Welcome to the Praying Christian Women podcast. I'm

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Speaker 2: Jamie Hampton, and instead of our usual Prayer through the

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Speaker 2: Psalms episode this Wednesday, we are going to be airing

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Speaker 2: a special interview episode where I talk with our co

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Speaker 2: host Alana about a very important topic. January is Spiritual

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Speaker 2: Abuse Awareness Month, and this conversation that Alanna and I

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Speaker 2: will be having is extremely relevant. In her college years,

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Speaker 2: Alana found herself attending what she would later look back

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Speaker 2: on and recognize as a cult. Alana and I had

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Speaker 2: been friends for over a decade, and this conversation is

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Speaker 2: actually the first time that I actually heard about this

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Speaker 2: experience in depth. It's not really something she talks about

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Speaker 2: a lot, and it was not easy for her to

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Speaker 2: talk about it on the podcast. It actually took a

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Speaker 2: lot of courage and transparency, but insisted on putting her

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Speaker 2: story out there to raise awareness about the dangers of

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Speaker 2: spiritual abuse and really to illustrate how subtle and manipulative

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Speaker 2: predators can be. It is not easy to spot a predator,

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Speaker 2: and if you think that you would never fall prey

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Speaker 2: to a cult or a spiritually abusive group of people,

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Speaker 2: you need to think again, because it happens, and it

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Speaker 2: is slow, it is subtle, but it is incredibly damaging

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Speaker 2: and dangerous. So we both believe this is a topic

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Speaker 2: that absolutely needs to be addressed and it's a story

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Speaker 2: that needs to be told. So this is part one

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Speaker 2: of a three part episode. You'll find Part two airing

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Speaker 2: next week on Tuesday on the Christian True Crime Junkies podcast,

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Speaker 2: which Alana and I also co host, and Part three

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Speaker 2: will be coming shortly after. So thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Alana for having the courage and the bravery

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Speaker 2: to put your story out there. So, Elana, since I'm

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Speaker 2: interviewing you here, I am going to start off our

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Speaker 2: conversation by asking you, which I don't necessarily know if

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Speaker 2: I've ever asked you this on the show, what is

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Speaker 2: your favorite prayer closet? Where do you go to feel

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Speaker 2: close to God.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely changed from season of life to season of life.

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Speaker 1: One of the ones that feels the most strong is

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Speaker 1: when the kids were little and still needed basically like

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Speaker 1: twenty four to seven surveillance or at the very least,

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Speaker 1: like you couldn't turn your brain off from what are

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Speaker 1: the kids doing? And I would go in the bath.

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Speaker 1: I would take a bath and that was kind of

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Speaker 1: my one time to myself and that is one of

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Speaker 1: my most memorable prayer closets.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just thinking about that today actually, as

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Speaker 2: I was in my car My car has become my

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Speaker 2: prayer closet again. For a while, it was because the

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Speaker 2: kids would be in her seats and stuff, and it

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Speaker 2: was just but then I wasn't really praying out loud

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Speaker 2: as much because when I would pray out loud, the

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Speaker 2: kids would be like, who are you talking to? But

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Speaker 2: now I actually am in the car alone quite a bit,

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Speaker 2: like shuttling kids but dropping them off and then on

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Speaker 2: the way back and stuff like that, and so I

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Speaker 2: love praying out loud in my car.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: My one fear is that I'm going to like pocket

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Speaker 2: dial someone one day and I'm gonna just be sitting

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Speaker 2: there pouring my heart out.

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Speaker 1: Pretty hilarious. Is now the wrong time to tell you

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Speaker 1: that I actually installed a secret dash cam and you

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Speaker 1: thought you were here to interview me, But this is

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Speaker 1: a gotcha interview. We're gonna air all of the prayers

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Speaker 1: that we recorded.

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Speaker 2: Smile, you're on candid camera. Yeah, but yeah, I love

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Speaker 2: my prayer closet has changed over the years too, and

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Speaker 2: I love it. But we are not here to talk

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Speaker 2: about prayer closets. We're here to talk about something actually

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Speaker 2: really important, and maybe especially for our younger listeners, but

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Speaker 2: any listener of any age can fall prey to this.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be talking about cults and what is

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Speaker 2: the definition of a cult. There are things out there

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Speaker 2: that might have some features of a cult or be

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Speaker 2: dangerous that you wouldn't necessarily think of. You know, we

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Speaker 2: think of Heaven's Gate, we think of just some of

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Speaker 2: the really more popular, crazy kind of things. But there

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Speaker 2: are some things that are on college campuses in particular,

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Speaker 2: which we're going to be talking about, even churches, you

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Speaker 2: know absolutely that would qualify and that are at the

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Speaker 2: very least extremely dangerous. So we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: your personal experience and hopefully it'll serve as a warning

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Speaker 2: to those who hopefully haven't experienced this yet and can

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Speaker 2: see the red flags, but also for those to see

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Speaker 2: red flags if they're in it, recognize the need to

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Speaker 2: get out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we think of cults as needing to have criminal activity,

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Speaker 1: and needing to have a commune type setting, and needing

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Speaker 1: to have really really far out theology. The church that

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Speaker 1: I went to in college was very cult like in

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Speaker 1: many of its practices, and it did not have a

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Speaker 1: warped theology about who Jesus Christ is. And that's what

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Speaker 1: can be even more insidious because you're not looking for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Well, tell us about your experience. So how

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Speaker 2: did you get started going to this place that you did,

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Speaker 2: and when did this happen? Just give us a little

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Speaker 2: intro into your experience.

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Speaker 1: So I was in college in the early two thousands,

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Speaker 1: and it was my third year at the university I

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Speaker 1: went to. I was at a school near Boston, and

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Speaker 1: I was invited by some of my friends to go

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Speaker 1: to this new campus ministry, and it was in the

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Speaker 1: heart of Boston. But we had a ride that was huge.

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Speaker 1: There was a woman who was on a missionary salary

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Speaker 1: through the church and came and picked us all up

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Speaker 1: in this big fifteen or eighteen passenger Van and I

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Speaker 1: had gone through an already kind of intense spiritual journey,

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Speaker 1: going from being really committed to Christ in high school

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Speaker 1: to getting very confused in college about all of the

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Speaker 1: intellectual arguments against Christianity and never lost my faith, but

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Speaker 1: did not have a Christian community for a decent chunk

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Speaker 1: of my college life. And so I remember getting to

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Speaker 1: this church and it was unlike anything. Are you familiar

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Speaker 1: with the expression of love bombing. Yes, it was almost

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Speaker 1: like being loved bombed by Jesus. So if people aren't

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Speaker 1: familiar love bombing, it's just like overwhelming. Everybody's in your face,

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Speaker 1: everybody's so happy to see you. And sometimes it can

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Speaker 1: be a manipulative tactic or maybe something like a narcissist

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Speaker 1: will used to get someone to fall in love with them.

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Speaker 1: But it truly felt at the moment like this is

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Speaker 1: everything I have been spiritually thirsting for forever. The music

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Speaker 1: was great, the enthusiasm was great. It was the first

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Speaker 1: time that I experienced worship with such a homogeneous group,

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Speaker 1: not in terms of ethnicity, and there were people from

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Speaker 1: all kinds of different countries because Boston's a really international hub,

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Speaker 1: but homogeneous in terms of age and being in full

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Speaker 1: time university studies and also being so hungry to really

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Speaker 1: have God speak to us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what were the things that this organization or this

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Speaker 2: group did to get people in, and then what did

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Speaker 2: they do to get people to stay?

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Speaker 1: I remember the music being great and the music really

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Speaker 1: speaking to me, and that was some of it. Most

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Speaker 1: of the people in the worship band went to the

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Speaker 1: Berkeley School of Music, which is really really high end,

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Speaker 1: like you probably have Juilliard and then you have Berkeley

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Speaker 1: School of Music. Wow, And it was all really contemporary

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Speaker 1: when you're in the age if you think about the

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Speaker 1: songs that touched you when you were nineteen years old,

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Speaker 1: like that touches you in a way that nothing else can, right,

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Speaker 1: like it's your heart music. And so I remember being

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Speaker 1: so touched by that. Some of the churches that I

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Speaker 1: had been to before, like you know, maybe two to

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Speaker 1: five percent of people might raise their hand for a song,

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Speaker 1: or we were definitely enthusiastic clappers clapping on the beat.

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Speaker 1: But this was such a freedom to be so into

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Speaker 1: the worship just body, mind and spirit, and that really

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Speaker 1: grabbed me. And then even just the fact that it

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Speaker 1: felt like this campus minister was bending over backwards to

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Speaker 1: give us these rites because we were kind of out

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Speaker 1: in the suburbs and so it was probably all said

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Speaker 1: and done, an hour and a half to two hours

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Speaker 1: out of her way to come and get the church

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Speaker 1: fan and then come and get us and then take

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Speaker 1: us to church and then doing the same thing all

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Speaker 1: over again to get us back home. And so it

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Speaker 1: felt like they wanted us there, and we were told

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Speaker 1: from the very beginning that we had a really special

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Speaker 1: part to play. It was still pretty small. I'm picturing

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Speaker 1: our auditorium and I'm picturing probably less than two hundred seats,

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Speaker 1: so it wasn't megachurch size, but it felt like that's

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Speaker 1: where it was going to go. And so it felt

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Speaker 1: really really exciting to to be part of this brand

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Speaker 1: new church plant doing something that it felt like nobody

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Speaker 1: else was doing in Boston.

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Speaker 2: So would you say it was like pretty much all

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Speaker 2: college kids at this point.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you were either a college student or you were

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Speaker 1: on staff. Okay, if we're not counting college students as adults,

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Speaker 1: the only adults were the pastor and his wife, and

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Speaker 1: the campus minister who shuttled us, and one other couple

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Speaker 1: who were the pastor's right hand team.

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Speaker 2: And so did they meet only on Sundays or was

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Speaker 2: this a midweek thing as well, or was it just midweek?

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Speaker 1: It got to be kind of time intensive, So they

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Speaker 1: met on Sunday at a rented space and then they

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Speaker 1: met for a midweek service at one of the college campuses,

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Speaker 1: and for that one I would take the commuter rail

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Speaker 1: in and the subway in. And that was another thing.

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Speaker 1: There was definitely a hierarchy right from the beginning. And

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Speaker 1: the more meetings you attended and the fewer Sundays you miss,

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Speaker 1: and the more you got involved in the stuff they

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Speaker 1: had going on at other times of the week, the

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Speaker 1: higher you rose in this hierarchy. And so it was

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Speaker 1: all like we were all racing to win God's approval

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Speaker 1: is really how it felt.

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Speaker 2: But what it really was is you were racing to

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Speaker 2: gain the approval of the leadership.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely grace you with that.

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Speaker 2: So what were the rewards, you know, Like, was it

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Speaker 2: leadership positions? Was it invited to dinner at the pastor's house?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: What were the rewards that they kind of dangled in

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Speaker 2: front of you.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it was the idea of being given

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Speaker 1: more responsibility within the church. So I remember, I think

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Speaker 1: it was my second Sunday there, and again this was

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Speaker 1: a very brand new church, and the pastor was talking

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Speaker 1: about his vision for the church, and he was looking

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Speaker 1: at this amazing worship team with all these extremely talented musicians,

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Speaker 1: and he said, and I know God's going to bring

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Speaker 1: us a violinist to join our music team. And I

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Speaker 1: was a very serious violinist at the time, and so

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Speaker 1: in my heart I am raising my hand shouting pick me,

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Speaker 1: pick me, and I'm shy ish. But I went up

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Speaker 1: to the pastor right after that service. He didn't know

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Speaker 1: me yet, and I said, Hey, I'm a violinist, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think I said it, but the idea behind

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Speaker 1: it was I'm the one you've been praying for. And

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Speaker 1: what I expected was, Wow, this is so amazing, this

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Speaker 1: is going to be so great, welcome. What I got

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Speaker 1: was it, And what he explained to me was, well,

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Speaker 1: we can't have people up in front of church until

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Speaker 1: we know more about them, Like, wouldn't it be awkward

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Speaker 1: if we invited you to come play violin and then

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Speaker 1: like a month later you just stopped showing up, you know.

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Speaker 1: So he's explaining it to me, and there is a

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Speaker 1: sense of that Paul says, don't be quick to lay

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Speaker 1: on hands right, don't be quick to appoint leaders in

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Speaker 1: the church. But the passion he had kind of calling

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Speaker 1: got out to bring me thisis compared to the back pedaling.

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Speaker 1: The moment I said, was very jarring. But what I

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Speaker 1: heard and what I took away was here's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of hoops I have in my mind. He might have

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Speaker 1: even said something like six months, like come back to

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Speaker 1: me in six months, and so I felt very motivated

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Speaker 1: and incentivized to prove myself. I'm going to be here

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Speaker 1: every Sunday. You say there's this midweek service, but the

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Speaker 1: campus minister can't get me there. That's okay. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be taking a commuter line and then a subway

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Speaker 1: in the dark in Boston getting home and eleven at night,

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Speaker 1: totally fine, walking by myself as a single girl back

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Speaker 1: to my dorm. Perfect. I am there. Count me in

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Speaker 1: because it felt so special to even have the idea

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Speaker 1: that maybe one day I might be considered qualified to

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Speaker 1: get up on that platform.

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Speaker 2: That was one of my first thoughts when you were

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Speaker 2: talking about taking the commuter I'm thinking, here's a nineteen

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Speaker 2: year old girl in a big city.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was almost a mile from my dorm

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Speaker 1: to get to the commuter rail. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's crazy. And you didn't have like a

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Speaker 2: little group that traveled together.

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Speaker 1: Usually not Yeah. I was like, nope, I'm going to go.

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Speaker 1: They told me to show that I was serious. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: watch me show you how serious am. And it appealed

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Speaker 1: to my teacher's.

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Speaker 2: Pet right, Oh yeah, I've got that too.

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Speaker 1: It was almost as if, oh, I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: a pat on the head, I'm going to get good grades.

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Speaker 1: Like that really really appealed to the perfectionism that I

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Speaker 1: had been raised with and had been very ingrained in

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Speaker 1: my personality.

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Speaker 2: So up to this point, I feel like all of

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Speaker 2: this stuff has sort of the expectation of what might

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Speaker 2: come next, But in and of itself, there's no like

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Speaker 2: that's a cult, you know, that's kind of an experience

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Speaker 2: that we would all have with a campus ministry or

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Speaker 2: a new church with enthusiastic new leaders and enthusiastic people,

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Speaker 2: there might be a little competition going on for approval,

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Speaker 2: and you can't put that on the pastor necessarily, right, So,

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Speaker 2: what were the beginnings like? Were there any inklings in

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Speaker 2: the beginning of red flags for you?

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Speaker 1: At the beginning? Absolutely not. For the entire first semester,

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Speaker 1: it was every Sunday you show up and Jesus is

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Speaker 1: preached and people are getting saved and the salvation message

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Speaker 1: is ringing loud and clear, and there is such a

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Speaker 1: vibrant community of people worshiping so passionately. So even today

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Speaker 1: I cannot look and say this doctrine was incorrect and

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Speaker 1: that's what made my experience a cult. But I can

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Speaker 1: look at the practices and I do not mind going

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Speaker 1: on record saying that, yes, it was a cult in

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Speaker 1: the way that it forced this hierarchy that is extremely cult,

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Speaker 1: like put barriers between you and God. So you had

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Speaker 1: to go through all of these hoops to prove that

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Speaker 1: you were worthy of God's favor. There was if you

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Speaker 1: didn't show up to everything, it wasn't Oh, I'm so

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Speaker 1: sorry you had a test. We really missed you, but

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Speaker 1: we totally get while you stayed home on a Sunday

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Speaker 1: to be excellent at your studies, it would have been shamed.

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Speaker 1: There was a fall retreat I was so excited to

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Speaker 1: go to because again I wanted to prove how qualified

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Speaker 1: I was. I wanted to prove how enthusiastic I was.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get the pats on the head. And

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Speaker 1: I got a really bad cold the day before I

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Speaker 1: was supposed to go on this retreat. So I called

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Speaker 1: the campus minister and said, I'm not going to be

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Speaker 1: able to make it, and they said, well, why don't

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Speaker 1: you come and we'll just pray for you. And so

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Speaker 1: it was this idea, well, you know, if she had

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Speaker 1: had enough faith, she still would have trusted God and

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Speaker 1: come to this retreat. And so other than the very

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Speaker 1: strict hierarchy, there was nothing in the doctrine that felt

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Speaker 1: cold light.

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Speaker 2: So can you talk about the hierarchy, like the structure

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Speaker 2: and the kind of guards you and God? And what

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Speaker 2: did the structure of the church look like.

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Speaker 1: So if you wanted to get involved in the church,

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Speaker 1: there was a very rigid formula that you followed. There

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Speaker 1: was a very specific Bible study and you went through

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Speaker 1: this book. I forget what it was called. It's called

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Speaker 1: like the Red Book or the Purple Book, or I

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Speaker 1: don't remember what color this silly book was, but you

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Speaker 1: went through the book with a Bible city. And most

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Speaker 1: of the campuses had a Bible city that was doing this.

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Speaker 1: And we were out in the suburbs, and so we

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Speaker 1: were a tiny bit of like the step kids of

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Speaker 1: the church because it was harder to get to us

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Speaker 1: and we didn't have as big of a group that

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Speaker 1: went right. So maybe Boston University sent forty students to

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Speaker 1: the church, and so they had a campus presence. You know,

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Speaker 1: we had eight to ten going on a Sunday, so

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Speaker 1: I didn't get to go through this red book, and

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Speaker 1: so that felt like a same like that was my

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Speaker 1: first hoop. I was supposed to jump through and then

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Speaker 1: you were supposed to have a deci and another word

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Speaker 1: you could call it was a mentor. But in the

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Speaker 1: church lingo here you had a discipler. And so I

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Speaker 1: remember it was probably as intense and serious as when

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Speaker 1: my husband asked me to marry him, Like I went

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Speaker 1: to our campus minister, I said will you be my discipler?

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Speaker 1: And it felt like such a big commitment and I

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Speaker 1: was like, what if she says no, and it's going

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Speaker 1: to be so devastating. And she was a tiny bit

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Speaker 1: more of a laid back discipler. And also since it

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Speaker 1: was harder for there to be like face to face

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Speaker 1: on a daily basis, it wasn't quite the same. But

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Speaker 1: a typical discipler relationship would be let's meet for lunch

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Speaker 1: at least once a week, like once a week a minimum,

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Speaker 1: you confess everything to them. My roommate got involved in

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Speaker 1: the church, and she was a step or two above

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Speaker 1: me in how committed you get, and her discipler would

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Speaker 1: give her very random rules to follow. One of them was,

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Speaker 1: you need to stop shopping at thrift stores. Right, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing your face like, okay, why did you tell

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Speaker 1: you to not shop at thrift stores?

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Speaker 2: Can I guess?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Please? I want to hear your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: So my guess would be because you could get something

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Speaker 2: that's like demonically influenced, Yes, because it's secondhand. Yes.

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Speaker 1: She quoted the verse about you need to hate the

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Speaker 1: clothing that's been stained by corrupted flesh.

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Speaker 2: Heaven forbid, you know, getting it from somewhere where kids

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Speaker 2: are working in sweatshops, by getting a brand new thing

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Speaker 2: from Walmart or something.

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Speaker 1: Not to go off on a tangent, but no, I

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Speaker 1: get it well. And it wasn't even quite like the

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Speaker 1: sweater you're wearing might have been worn by someone who

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Speaker 1: practices paganism. It was truly the sweater you're wearing might

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Speaker 1: have been worn by a promiscuous woman. Like it was

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Speaker 1: that structured and severe. So wow, First you go through

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Speaker 1: this book, then you get yourself a discipler, and then

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Speaker 1: you tell your disciple er everything you submit to your scipler.

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Speaker 1: If your disciple tells you to stop shopping at thrift stores,

356
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Speaker 1: you stop shopping at thrift stores. If your discipler tells you,

357
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Speaker 1: I think that God is putting on my heart that

358
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Speaker 1: you should start allowing so and so in the church

359
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 1: to court you, you do that. Like the discipler could

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Speaker 1: speak into your life. And really, you weren't supposed to

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Speaker 1: make any decision, like, definitely not a dating decision, Definitely

362
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Speaker 1: not a what am I going to do for this summer?

363
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Speaker 1: What am I going to do after I graduate decision?

364
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Speaker 1: You don't do any of those things without your discipler

365
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Speaker 1: telling you. And it wasn't even just talking to your

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Speaker 1: discipler to get some mature input. It truly was talking

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Speaker 1: to your discipler to get their permission. So if you

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Speaker 1: were my discipler and I was thinking about switching majors

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Speaker 1: from biology to music, I wouldn't say, Jamie, I'm thinking

370
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Speaker 1: about this major switch and I'm not sure I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: from God. Right, it was, Jamie, here's what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: And then you would say, Okay, I'll pray on it

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Speaker 1: and tell you. Right. So it was I will pray

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Speaker 1: and I will tell you what God wants you to do, so.

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Speaker 2: Let's pull out so far. Like some very very easy

376
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Speaker 2: litmus tests. Number one, when someone stands between you and

377
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Speaker 2: hearing God's voice, when they presume to be able to

378
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Speaker 2: hear God's voice on your behalf, that's absolutely wrong in

379
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Speaker 2: a red flag, no matter what the other like nuanced

380
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Speaker 2: kind of weirdness is like, that is absolutely wrong. And

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Speaker 2: then I think the other thing is imposing extra biblical

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Speaker 2: rules and regulations on your life. I mean, it's one

383
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Speaker 2: thing for someone to say it's not a good idea

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Speaker 2: to do this mm hm, you know, or even things

385
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Speaker 2: like courting versus dating, like okay, but for someone to

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Speaker 2: actually say, this is what you have to do in

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Speaker 2: order to be in our good favor, in order to

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Speaker 2: be under our umbrella of protection as your leadership, there's.

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Speaker 1: Something wrong there. I think. Yeah, I agree. The umbrella

390
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Speaker 1: of leadership was huge, and it was this idea of

391
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Speaker 1: you have your pastor, and then the pastor has appointed

392
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Speaker 1: these disciplers, and if your disciple or tells you to

393
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Speaker 1: do something and you step out from under that umbrella

394
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Speaker 1: of protection, Heaven help you, because nobody else is going

395
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: to be able to There was an unspoken threat. For example,

396
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Speaker 1: if my roommate had gone and worn that sweater from

397
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Speaker 1: the second hand store and I'm going to make it really,

398
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Speaker 1: really dark and terrible and she got assaulted that night,

399
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: people could have looked at that and said, well, we

400
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Speaker 1: told you not to wear a sweater from a second

401
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: hand store. Yeah, that's dark and that's weird. So talking

402
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: about it makes it so obvious and so clearcut. But

403
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: it wasn't. And even years after I would go back

404
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, well, wait, it wasn't that bad,

405
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Speaker 1: was it? And what I go back to And we'll

406
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Speaker 1: get to this part of the story later. The story

407
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 1: ends with me leaving the state in the middle of

408
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Speaker 1: the night to get away from these people. But even

409
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Speaker 1: now there's part of me that's like, well, it wasn't

410
00:22:59,040 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: that bad, was it?

411
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Which is classic cult. It's the frog in the

412
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Speaker 2: frying pan. It's a form of grooming, I think, where

413
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 2: it's let's build trust, let's make you feel good about yourself.

414
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Speaker 2: Let's get you in here and make you feel like

415
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Speaker 2: you're part of something bigger than yourself, and then let's

416
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Speaker 2: impose these rules and gain more and more and more

417
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Speaker 2: control over you until the stakes are so high that

418
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Speaker 2: your value and your self worth and identity are wrapped

419
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Speaker 2: up in this group. Your friend group is all these people.

420
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Speaker 2: How did they feel about you having friends outside of

421
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Speaker 2: their group? Was that a no?

422
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: No dating outside of the group was terrible. I had

423
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Speaker 1: met Scott who is now my husband at that time,

424
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Speaker 1: and I did mention it because you need to tell

425
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Speaker 1: everything to your discipler. And the very first question is, well,

426
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Speaker 1: what churches go to? Does it go to one of

427
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Speaker 1: our churches? So that was the biggest no note and

428
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: it was the exact same thing. It was, Alana, if

429
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Speaker 1: you do this and if you pursue this relationship, you

430
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: have stepped out from the umbrella and all of the

431
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: unspoken threats that came with it. God is no longer

432
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Speaker 1: going to protect you. We heard so much about the

433
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Speaker 1: hedge of protection, which is biblical and it is true

434
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Speaker 1: and it is comforting, but it was weaponized to say,

435
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: if you do this one thing that we don't think

436
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: you should do, then that hedge of protection is totally

437
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: gone from you. Yeah. In terms of friendships, there was

438
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: absolutely another sense of hierarchy. You could have close friends

439
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: in the group, you could have other Christian friends that

440
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: you wouldn't necessarily like fellowship and worship with, but like

441
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: you could respect each other and anything else kind of

442
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: had to be. Well, I've got this lab partner who

443
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: doesn't go to our church and actually doesn't go to

444
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: any church, but I'm gonna be witnessing to him, so

445
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: I needs to kind of pretend to be nice to him.

446
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: Like everybody was viewed as pretty transactional. It was either

447
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: somebody who's in our church or somebody who I can

448
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: bring into our church, or you just wouldn't want to

449
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: have anything to do with them. I asked my roommate

450
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: if she wanted to become like prayer partners and accountability partners.

451
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: Oh no, my discipler says that I should only talk

452
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: about those things to her. So they even discouraged peer

453
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: to peer accountability and peer to peer prayer because that

454
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: wasn't fully under their umbrella.

455
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: Wow, and again that's a control thing, because heaven forbid,

456
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: you have peers confessing biblically their sends to one another

457
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 2: and realizing that they don't need this mediator exactly exactly. Yeah,

458
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: another red flag. Well, tell us about your pastor? What

459
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: was your pastor?

460
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: Like, you know, The interesting thing when I hear other

461
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: stories like this, and I'm always so drawn to other

462
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: stories like this because it validates what I went through.

463
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: And one of the differences is I didn't have a

464
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: ton of interest in my pastor specifically. It wasn't like, oh,

465
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: he was larger than life. There were just certain things

466
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: he came across as a little bit our salesman. He

467
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: So I did not have warm, fuzzy thinking about the

468
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: pastor himself. I would respect him in my heart because

469
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: that's what I was told that I should do, and

470
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: there was definitely preaching about you know, this is God's anointed,

471
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: so you can't you can't slander God's anointed. You can't

472
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: doubt God's anointed. So there was intellectual respect for him,

473
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: but he was not the one I was racing to

474
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: get into good graces with. And honestly, some of it

475
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: probably was that felt so unattainable that I didn't even

476
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: bother to try. Like if I was going to be

477
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: the teacher's pet, it had to be one of the

478
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: campus ministers or something like that. I was never going

479
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 1: to get to the point where I could be the

480
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: pastor's teacher pets, So don't even bother. But yeah, there

481
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: were just certain things about him that I remember. If

482
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 1: I had been fully thinking or just a visitor who

483
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: was not involved in us at all, there would probably

484
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: have been a little bit of a sleeze factor. And

485
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: he was very unapproachable. I would say there was a

486
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: fifty percent chance he knew and remembered my name. And

487
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: the only time I remember speaking to him one on

488
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: one was we talked about that violent and honestly, I

489
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: think that's part of what his freezing was. It was like, Oh,

490
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: someone's talking to me, and like she's not going through

491
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: the right channels. Oh yeah, yeah, So he felt very,

492
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: very removed from the rest of us.

493
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: So you talk about some of this kind of rigid

494
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: hierarchy and authority and like the hoops you had to

495
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: jump through, was it actually enforced? What did they do

496
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: to make it so that it had to be followed?

497
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: We ever saw any specific church discipline, Like nobody was

498
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: ever called up front and kicked out of the church

499
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: or things like that. It was almost as if you

500
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: picture a parent who likes to pit siblings against each other,

501
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 1: to like, let's say that you and I are sisters

502
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: and we have a really conniving mom, and one day

503
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: she might be like, oh, Jamie, I see that Alana

504
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: made her bed first thing this morning. Wasn't that good

505
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: of hurt and just that kind of not even passive aggression,

506
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: but just.

507
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: That manipulation is what it is like overt manipulation.

508
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: But it didn't feel overt. It felt so much all

509
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: in the name of Christ, and it felt so much

510
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: all in the name of building this church. But it

511
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: was very understood that if you stepped out of lying,

512
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: you would fall from grace in the eyes of the leaders.

513
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: So you would go from being maybe on level ten

514
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: out of level one hundred, which is where you want

515
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: to be, and you'd go all the way back to

516
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: level one. And nobody wants to start back at level one,

517
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: because that's almost like the unsaved person who just walks

518
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: in the doors of the church for the very first time,

519
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: and ew ew who wants to be that There really

520
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: was that sense so like if you went to church

521
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: every day, if I remember it, it was every Sunday,

522
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: and then it was every Tuesday night college group and

523
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: every Friday night prayer meetings, And if you went to

524
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: all of those and never missed one for three months

525
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: and then you took a week off. It was as

526
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: if you were a backsitting Christian. It would be like, oh,

527
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: we all need to pray for Lana because you know,

528
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about her relationship with the Lord. And then

529
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: it would feel as if all the work that you

530
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: had done in the last three months to build your

531
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: credibility was all for nothing because you were right back

532
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: down to level one where you started.

533
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: So the exact opposite of the gospel. Basically, you are

534
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: working your way to earn approval, and whether you realize

535
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: it or not, as someone under that authority, you know

536
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: they're representing the church, and so you're cultivating this idea

537
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: that you have to earn your way to salvation too,

538
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: or for God's approval.

539
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: For God's approval. Absolutely, it was the more you pray,

540
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: the more you do, the more time you spend at church,

541
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: the more people you invite to church, the more God's

542
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: going to be able to bless you. I wouldn't say

543
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: that it got all the way to the points of

544
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: prosperity gospel, but that's probably just because I'm still trying

545
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: to be too kind. Because there was a sense light

546
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: with me getting sick, there was a sense of well,

547
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: if you had come to this retreat and had enough faith,

548
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: we would have prayed for you and you wouldn't have

549
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: been sick. Or there was a verse that they really

550
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: loved to use. I was very familiar with the Bible,

551
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: but I had never heard this verse before, and they

552
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: love to use it. You will be the head and

553
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: not the tail. And it's a verse that God used

554
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: to the Israelites to explain to them. You are going

555
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: to be the strongest, You're not going to be the weakest,

556
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: is sort of the idea, and they used that to

557
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: mean you are going to be in the upper class.

558
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: And these are college students, and so it was a

559
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: funny dynamic because it was all very aspirational. They recognize

560
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: that none of us had money. I remember one of

561
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: the sermons. It was about tithing, which you think could

562
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: get a little tricky in a church like this, but

563
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: it was why a college student doesn't need to worry

564
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: about paying ties on their student loans, because they're gonna

565
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: have to pay those student loans back. So in a way,

566
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: their talking is like, we totally get what it's like

567
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: to be a struggling college student, Like we get it.

568
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: But there was also the sense of but if you

569
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: get to level ninety nine, oh, by then God's really

570
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: going to want to bless you, and He's going to

571
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: throw up in the floodgates. It wasn't the exact form

572
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: of the prosperity gospel. It was almost like the promise

573
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: of prosperity five years or now. And thus they did.

574
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: They kept moving the finish line. They kept moving how

575
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: many levels or worse. You might get to level ten.

576
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: It'd be like, ooh, good, I finally got it. I

577
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: got to my six months and I've never missed a Sunday,

578
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: but my pastor still doesn't want me to play violin.

579
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: So they just keep moving the finish line back. And

580
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: then the other thing they would do to keep everybody

581
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: in line was more in the teaching. The idea of

582
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: God's anointed was so front and center, and they loved

583
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: stories like when Miriam got cursed with leprosy for cursing

584
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: God's anointed, and she was held out as the example

585
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: to us all to never question the pastor and to

586
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: never question the denomination, and almost to report people who

587
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: were It was never explicitly stated, but we all understood

588
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: if we heard people complaining about the pastor or the denomination,

589
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: and we told our discipler. It was very clearly understood

590
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: that that would give us a little bit of church currency. Right,

591
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: there was this whole sense of church currency, and you

592
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: got your points and it was the same thing though

593
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: almost like the American dream. People say, well, once you

594
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: get this many points and you're going to have a

595
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: arrived But then you work your tail off to a

596
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: mass that much and you're still not on the worship team,

597
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: you're still not given any type of leadership. Then they

598
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: just say, oh, that's great, how about another three more

599
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: years of service and then we'll think about you doing something.

600
00:32:59,000 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: A lot of this.

601
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: Reminds me of multi level marketing tactics. This whole let's

602
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: envision prosperity in the future, even if you're not there yet,

603
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: if you just work a little harder at the dangling

604
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: and the carrot. So yeah, and I've kind of added

605
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: to our red flags. I'm going to kind of go

606
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: through and review some of them. Somebody putting themselves between

607
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: you and hearing God, extra biblical rules and regulations, trying

608
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: to control who you date or who you're friends with,

609
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: viewing people as projects, not respecting other Christians from other

610
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: churches or denominations. Teaching resembles multi level marketing, the emphasis

611
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: on not questioning the pastor the denomination or doctrine and

612
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 2: then like reporting others that do because of this culture

613
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: of competition, because of this culture not of there are

614
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: many members of the body, let's all lift each other up.

615
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: It's I want to be the best, I want to

616
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: be the golden child. I want to be the favored one.

617
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: Which Jesus absolutely destroyed that kind of bickering amongst his

618
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: disciples harshly.

619
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: He rebuked that.

620
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: So like all of these things going contrary to God's teaching,

621
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: and the really scary thing is all of these other

622
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 2: things are outside of the doctrine that is preached. So

623
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: like for me going into a church, a lot of

624
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 2: times I go straight to their statement of faith, their doctrine,

625
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 2: what resources are they using? And if I see these

626
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: resources that are being used and they all check out biblically,

627
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 2: that can be a false sense of security. And it

628
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: could cause someone like you looking back to wonder, well,

629
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: was it that bad? What did they say? Like the

630
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: doctrine might not be overtly weird or twisted or out there,

631
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean that you're not part of a cult.

632
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: And another thing I'd like to add, just because you're

633
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: part of a denomination that isn't necessarily a cult. You

634
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: could have leadership in a individual church affiliated with a

635
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: denomination that you trust that creates a cultish atmosphere and

636
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 2: an abusive atmosphere. I think that's another good important thing

637
00:34:59,480 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: to bring out.

638
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: Well, right, like you might have grown up in a

639
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: family that was not criminally abusive and yet still highly dysfunctional.

640
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: But it does make it hard because we like to

641
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: think that we're safe if we check these boxes. If

642
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: they believe in the Bible and they believe that Jesus

643
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: is the only way to heaven, and they believe in

644
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: these important doctrines, then that's a safe church. But this

645
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: absolutely wasn't.

646
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so after all of these little red flags

647
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 2: kind of popping up, what was it, What was the

648
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 2: nail in the coffin that made you say, Okay, something

649
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: is wrong here, something's definitely not right.

650
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: Well, there wasn't one nail in the coffin. It was

651
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: a lot more complicated than that. But I remember the

652
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: doubts started to niggle about midway through second semester. So

653
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 1: first semester felt like this amazing honeymoon, and it felt

654
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: like everything that I had prayed and asked God for

655
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: in terms of just renewal and fellowship and closeness to Him.

656
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: Like I said, every single week, the Gospel was being

657
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: preached and people were getting saved, and it was so

658
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: exciting to be part of that. And then by my

659
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: second semester there the theme of the sermons really shifted,

660
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: and that's where it got more into things like tithing,

661
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: and it's fine to preach a sermon on tiding, but

662
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: it can be a red flag if this is fifty

663
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: percent of what is being talked about from the pulpit.

664
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: Even more so than that, though, was this authoritary structure

665
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: being preached that became the focus, this idea of you

666
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 1: can never talk about the Lord's anointed in any way

667
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: but good. You can never doubt the Lord's anointed. You

668
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 1: can never so discord among the brethren by causing someone

669
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: else to doubt the Lord's anointed. One time, our pastor

670
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: called out somebody in a positive way because they brought

671
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: a spiral journal to church and wrote in it every

672
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: week during the German because at one point in passing,

673
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: the pastor had said that it made him feel validated

674
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: to know that people were taking notes.

675
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, like in this like

676
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: everybody wanting to look better than the other person. I

677
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 2: remember as a college student, freshly rededicated to Jesus and

678
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 2: excited in campus ministry, the big thing was on Sunday,

679
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: you got your little notebook and the really, really good

680
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: Christians would write in their notebooks.

681
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: And it was called out from the pulpit.

682
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: So again taking the emphasis off of the gospel in Jesus,

683
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: and like, I feel validated because you're listening to my

684
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: words and what I'm saying.

685
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: And don't ever question me, and don't ever question the

686
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: other leaders. In the denomination, there was very much in

687
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: us versus them mentality. It was the world's going to

688
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: be out to get us, and not only that, other

689
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 1: believers are going to come out to get us because

690
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: they're jealous of what God's doing, or it was never

691
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: explicitly stated. What was explicitly stated is anybody who confesses

692
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: the name of Jesus Christ is saved. But there was

693
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: an asterisk that was like, but we're the most special,

694
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: you know, And that is what started to bother me,

695
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: and coupled with that, and it makes me feel a

696
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: little petty to admit. Coupled with that was this disenfranchised

697
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: feeling with I've been jumping through all the hoops and

698
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: you said six months, and I've given my six months

699
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: and my three days a week and every single extra

700
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: thing on top of that, and you probably don't even

701
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: know what my name is. So you foster this environment

702
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: where we're all vying to be the favorite child, and

703
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: you're saying that if you do this and this, and

704
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: you get to be the favorite child. But there are

705
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: ninety other people doing the exact same thing, and we're

706
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: all recognizing that we can't all be the favorite child.

707
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 1: And so there was a little bit of discontent there

708
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: as well, which I will confess some of that comes

709
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: from the flesh, right. He never called me out from

710
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: the pulpit to say that I was doing a good job.

711
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: So I recognize that there's that sight of it, that

712
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: it's the sinful nature that wants recognition. But I also

713
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 1: know that I am parroting exactly what would be spoken

714
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: to me if I'd ever voice those complaints, which I

715
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: never would have. So like they create this environment where

716
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: they don't even have to shame you and lecture you.

717
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: You learn to do it on your own.

718
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 2: A good manipulator doesn't have to say a thing. Yeah,

719
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,479
Speaker 2: and then that's why you then, looking back, think I'm

720
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: to blame because I'm the one that was the problem.

721
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 2: You know.

722
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I made it about me. I made it that.

723
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: Oh I wanted the recognition of playing my violin up

724
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: on stage so people would look at me. So, yeah,

725
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: there wasn't ever a nail on the head, but there

726
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 1: was a growing resentment, but it was circular. There would

727
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: be a growing resentment, and then I would feel more

728
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: shame for having that resentment, and I would feel like

729
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: I would have to repent and things like that. Also,

730
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: I felt like because we were this campus out in

731
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: the suburbs, it didn't even have like a consistent dozen people.

732
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 1: I just felt like the church didn't care as much

733
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: about us, and so it was harder to meet with

734
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: my disciple or like, and I felt like I had

735
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: to be the one to initiate. And so it just

736
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: felt like all of these carrots that you dangled, they're

737
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: just like paper cutouts.

738
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So did you have an experience with not showing

739
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: up to church and them calling you out somehow.

740
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 1: Never I would have never even dreamed of it, because

741
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: there's also this sense of, well, I've put so much

742
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: into it, right, so okay, I'm six months in, nothing's

743
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: happened yet. But to me that made me dig my

744
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: heels and even more you need the perfect attendance. Yeah,

745
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: it was like, oh, I guess there's another layer that

746
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: nobody told me that I'm supposed to be doing, so

747
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: I need to stick around figure out what that is.

748
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: Did you know anyone that didn't show up to church

749
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: and like to know what the protocol was or was

750
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: it just kind of talking behind their back about their

751
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: backslidden Christianity or did they get a visitation or did

752
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: they get a reprimand or how did that look?

753
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 1: It was more you were just forgotten, which is almost worse.

754
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: It's almost worse that nobody would even care. Like it

755
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: would be terrible to be visited by the elders and

756
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: being like, so, we see you aren't at church, and

757
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: that would be awkward and embarrassing and an invasion of

758
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: privacy and everything else. But it's terrible to think of

759
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: just leaving and nobody even notices and you aren't supposed

760
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: to check up on others. That's the job of the discipler.

761
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: So if my roommate had stopped going to church, it

762
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't be on me to be like, hey, what's going on.

763
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: It would be on me to pull away and be like, Wow,

764
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: she's dealing with some stuff, and I don't want her

765
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: corrupted flesh to take me, and so I better distance myself.

766
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: I have heard stories of other churches in the same

767
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: denomination where it was a little bit more public, But

768
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: to be honest, I didn't feel like we were important enough.

769
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 1: The college students weren't important enough to be publicly called.

770
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: It was as if they expected half of us to

771
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: flake out anyway. They always talked about the apostasy and

772
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: the falling away, and it really was the sense of

773
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: and I know that only a few of you are

774
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: going to be here in a year, right, and like

775
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: that was never the verbatim words that were said. But

776
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: I didn't get the sense they had faith in us

777
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: as individuals. As much as they talked about the movement

778
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: and the work God was doing, it didn't feel as

779
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: though it was. And Jamie, if you're not involved in it,

780
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: we can't do it. It was more like, and Jamie,

781
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: if you don't feel like being involved, then we never

782
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 1: really knew.

783
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: You, which is, like you said, it's manipulation, but it's

784
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: worse than being called out or controlled, and it's not subtle.

785
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 2: It's like the boyfriend that just kind of ignores the

786
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: girl until she's like, well, what happened? Yeah, and she

787
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: just wants them even more, rather than the boyfriend that

788
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: goes to the girl and says, yeah, we're done, you know.

789
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 1: Right well, And that's one of the things we started

790
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,439
Speaker 1: the conversation talking about love bombing, and part of love

791
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: bombing is so much attention all at once, and then

792
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: you pull away and it becomes addictive. It's like the

793
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,959
Speaker 1: drug dealer who gives you a little bit for free,

794
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: but then makes you wait to be even able to

795
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: buy the next so you feel like he's doing you

796
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: a favor by making you pay money to get it.

797
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: And when you think about it, I was begging for

798
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: the chance to be used by the church in a

799
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: good way, hopefully but not necessarily right like wow, Sometimes

800
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: I would hear the people in the worship band. I

801
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't call it bickering. There was a lot of down

802
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: talking there was a lot of that was not the

803
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: right way to play this song, and shame on you

804
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: for not loving God enough to have more talent that

805
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 1: kind of feel. And so I was so eager to

806
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: jump into a situation like that.

807
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 2: Well, how long was it after you said, second semester

808
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: you started having some doubts and some red flags. How

809
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 2: long after that did you actually decide to leave?

810
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: Well, I still have a hard time saying that I

811
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: was in an abusive religious experience, because much in the

812
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: same way I'm sure that a victim of domestic violence,

813
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,439
Speaker 1: So a lot of people would have a hard time

814
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: recognizing themselves in that. And one of the biggest arguments is, well,

815
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: I know of people who had it so much worse,

816
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: So I don't claim that identity, But I see a

817
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: parallel in how someone trying to leave an abusive situation

818
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: doesn't often make a clean cut and is gone for

819
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: the very first time. I remember my last Sunday in

820
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: church though very clearly, and I was sitting toward the back.

821
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: Have you ever had just such a block in your

822
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: spirit that you're like, I can't even watch this or

823
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: I can't even listen to this. And the sermon was

824
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: all about church authority and the Lord's anointed, and it

825
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: was the first time that the Holy Spirit's voice was

826
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: significantly louder than the pastor Praise God. Yeah, I felt

827
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: a sense of oppression. I felt a sense of being

828
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: spiritually unsafe, and I wouldn't have had a ride to

829
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: get back home to my campus or anything, and I

830
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: didn't feel comfortable like standing up and walking out. But

831
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: I knew that I had to find a way to

832
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: turn my ears off and basically turn my spirit off,

833
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: like I had to put up massive armor around my

834
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: brain and my ears and my soul. And so what

835
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: I did is I just started at the very front

836
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: corner of the room and just based on the back

837
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: of the heads of every person I saw, I said

838
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: like a pretty thorough prayer for every single person I

839
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: was sitting behind. And by the time I got back

840
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: a couple rows, I realized that this was my way

841
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: of saying goodbye to this congregation. It was my way

842
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: of giving a blessing so that I wasn't leaving in

843
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: anger and I wasn't leaving in bitterness. But I knew

844
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: that I had to get out of there.

845
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,960
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846
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