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Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of

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Speaker 1: a Christian Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel.

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Speaker 1: This is your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and

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Speaker 1: remarkable comebacks. In the end, this podcast is a place

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Speaker 1: for the desperate, the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 1: But it's also a place of hope and healing. I

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Speaker 1: know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic,

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Speaker 1: not the other way around. Today I've found sobriety after

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Speaker 1: decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I

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Speaker 1: found Jesus. My prayer is that as I interview people

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Speaker 1: just like you and just like me, along with professionals

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Speaker 1: in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you

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Speaker 1: will find the peace that is available to you through

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Speaker 1: Christ on the other side of whatever you're going through

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Speaker 1: and whatever addiction that might be. Because let's face it,

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Speaker 1: we're all addicted to something so welcome, let's get radically

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Speaker 1: vulnerable as we explore what it looks like to be

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Speaker 1: on this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll be right back

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Speaker 1: after this. Shame is a killer, It truly is a killer.

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Speaker 1: Not only do we have just a lot of anecdotal

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Speaker 1: evidence about this in our current day and age, but

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Speaker 1: I think if you look back in the Bible and

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Speaker 1: you look at the story of Judas, right, his shame

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Speaker 1: literally led him to death. And if you have struggled

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Speaker 1: with any sort of addiction and you're listening to this,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know that shame is one of the

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Speaker 1: greatest obstacles to recovery, not only getting there initially but continuing.

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Speaker 1: And that's been the story of my life. And and

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Speaker 1: so I even have a chapter on this in the book,

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Speaker 1: and I have a graphic the shame cycle, right that

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Speaker 1: keeps us going back to our drug of choice, whether

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Speaker 1: that's alcohol, substances, food, whatever it is. Right. And so

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Speaker 1: today I am talking on the show with one of

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Speaker 1: the foremost experts on not just shame, but what is

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Speaker 1: called complex shame, and she is going to unpack that

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Speaker 1: for us. Her name is doctor Zoe Shaw, and she

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Speaker 1: has become a friend. She's part of a writers group

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Speaker 1: that I'm in where we get together every month and

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Speaker 1: just share life together and talk and chat and encourage

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Speaker 1: one another and whatnot. And I've just really enjoyed getting

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Speaker 1: to know her and I think you will too. She

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Speaker 1: has an incredible story. She was got pregnant as a teenager.

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Speaker 1: She has a sometimes complicated, if you will, relationship with

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Speaker 1: her mother still, and so she's going to talk about

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Speaker 1: that as well. Her story has been featured on the

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Speaker 1: Own Network with Oprah. She has written a new book

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Speaker 1: called Stronger in the Difficult Places, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: a really helpful tool when it comes to dealing with shame.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited that she is going to be sharing

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Speaker 1: her insights with us today. Before we get there, though,

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Speaker 1: please if you have a chance, go to Christianalcoholic dot

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Speaker 1: com Christianalcoholic dot com. In there you can pick up

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Speaker 1: my book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic. But also I

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Speaker 1: want to make an announcement today and I'll be writing

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Speaker 1: about this a little bit later this week, but we

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Speaker 1: officially are now launching a nonprofit ministry that is based

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Speaker 1: on the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic book this podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's called Veritas Recovery and it is officially we have

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Speaker 1: a website, Veritasrecovery dot org. We are an officially recognized

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Speaker 1: five oh one c three nonprofit organization. And so what

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Speaker 1: that means, well, it means a lot of things, right,

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Speaker 1: And so you can go on the website you can

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Speaker 1: see our six pillars and what we're all about. But listen,

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Speaker 1: if you would like to be a founding in a

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Speaker 1: sense donor to this ministry, it would mean the world.

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Speaker 1: We are especially, although not exclusively, for Christians who struggle

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Speaker 1: with doing what they don't want to do, whether that

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Speaker 1: is addiction or people pleasing or whatever. And there is

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Speaker 1: a crisis that is going on, and so I talk

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Speaker 1: about the crisis on the website, but I think you

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Speaker 1: know it. If you're listening to this podcast, you know

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Speaker 1: and understand that so many Christians, people who love Jesus,

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Speaker 1: follow Jesus and want to be like Jesus, still struggle

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Speaker 1: with big sins, messy sanctification. And so now we have

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Speaker 1: launched a nonprofit ministry called Veritas Recovery that is ex especially,

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Speaker 1: but not exclusively, for those type of people. And I

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Speaker 1: would just love for you to check it out. So

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Speaker 1: please go to Veritasrecovery dot org, Veritas Recovery dot org,

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Speaker 1: v R I T A S which means truth in Latin,

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Speaker 1: and I would love for you to check it out.

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Speaker 1: And if you feel so led you can now make

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Speaker 1: a tax deductible donate to what we are doing. All right, So,

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Speaker 1: without further ado, let's talk to doctor Zoe Shaw. Zoe,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a

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Speaker 1: Christian Alcoholic podcast. This is our second attempt, and I

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Speaker 1: guess it's just meant to like. This is the interview

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Speaker 1: that was supposed to go out to everyone. So thank

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Speaker 1: you for coming back again and doing this.

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Speaker 2: You're welcome, Don, I'm so glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, you have been such a encouragement to me personally.

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Speaker 1: You have been such a cheerleader for what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: I am more than excited to be a cheerleader for

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Speaker 1: what you're doing. And so what I think is a

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Speaker 1: benefit to having to do this interview again is that

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Speaker 1: now your book is out. Yeah, so you know. I

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Speaker 1: even included your book in the resources section of the

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Speaker 1: downloads that you get when you buy my book because

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Speaker 1: I think is such a huge topic and an important

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Speaker 1: topic and something that I had to really work through.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited to talk about shame. Most people don't

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Speaker 1: say that, but I am excited to talk.

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Speaker 2: So I love to hear other people say it because

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Speaker 2: I feel like I'm always the one saying it.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, right, So before we get to talking about shame,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, and I and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: show people this I have I have Zoe's book here

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Speaker 1: on my kindle and so if you're watching this, you

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Speaker 1: know you can see uh Stronger. The book is called

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Speaker 1: Stronger in the Difficult Places and the teg the subtitle

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Speaker 1: is Heal your relationship with yourself by untangling complex Shame.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to get into all of that. But

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Speaker 1: before we do, I mean, you talk about even just

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Speaker 1: in the introduction of the book that people come up

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Speaker 1: to you and they say, Zoe, your story is kind

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Speaker 1: of crazy and you're you're talking about it and how

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Speaker 1: are you able to do that? So to give people

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a background of that, you know,

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Speaker 1: quote unquote crazy story that you have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, apparently it is so much so that

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Speaker 2: you know, Oprah Winfrey Network reached out and did an

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Speaker 2: episode a docuseries on my story. And you know, I'll

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Speaker 2: just give you a brief overview of how my complex

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Speaker 2: shame developed. First, I was I grew up a black

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Speaker 2: girl in an all white farming rural community and that's

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Speaker 2: where my racial identity. Shame began when I, you know,

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Speaker 2: began to understand that there's something wrong. I'm saying that

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Speaker 2: in quotes with the color of my skin. And I

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Speaker 2: also grew up in a very fundamental Christian home. My

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Speaker 2: dad was a prominent doctor in the community. And I

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Speaker 2: got pregnant when I was fifteen, and I hid it

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Speaker 2: for as long as I possibly could. But when my

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Speaker 2: parents found out, their response was, that's not happening here,

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Speaker 2: and so they sent me away to a pregnancy home

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Speaker 2: in Virginia. IW up in Maryland, and with the understanding

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Speaker 2: that I would come back without a child, and I

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Speaker 2: was a compliant child, and I left my baby, gave

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Speaker 2: birth unmedicated in a hospital in Virginia, and left my

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Speaker 2: baby there in the hospital, and came back home to

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Speaker 2: pretend like nothing happened. She was adopted. And that's where,

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Speaker 2: you know, my complex shame really began. That we'll talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit about simple shame and complex shame and

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Speaker 2: the difference. But I went back home in the way

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Speaker 2: that I dealt with my shame, and most people do,

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Speaker 2: of course, as we hide and we push it down.

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Speaker 2: And I compensated through over achievement. I academically excelled. I

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Speaker 2: excelled athletically. I got a scholarship to UCLA. I married

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Speaker 2: very early at nineteen to kind of exonerate myself in

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Speaker 2: the purity culture. And I went on to, you know,

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Speaker 2: get my bachelors, get my masters, get my doctorate degree,

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Speaker 2: have you know children and the quote perfect family. And

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Speaker 2: it wasn't until my first kept daughter was born, when

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Speaker 2: she was born with a rare genetic disorder, and I

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Speaker 2: was sitting in the nicu when my damn of shame

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Speaker 2: really began to break. And I truly believe that I

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Speaker 2: was being punished for and my daughter was being punished

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Speaker 2: for me having given away my first child. So that

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Speaker 2: is my story. And there's a lot more to it

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Speaker 2: that we can't really go into. And yeah, my story

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Speaker 2: does seem extreme in some way when it comes to shame, obviously,

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Speaker 2: But what I say in the beginning of the book

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Speaker 2: is that everyone has a shame story.

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Speaker 1: And in that yes, I wanted to ask you about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: explain that when you say everyone has a shame story,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean.

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Speaker 2: What I mean is, well, it's interesting because every single

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Speaker 2: person listening, I'm sure resonates with that. I imagine you do, John,

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Speaker 2: you think, oh, oh yeah, absolutely, everybody who hear that

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Speaker 2: already knows because when I say that, it connects directly

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Speaker 2: to their shame. We all experience shame. We begin to

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Speaker 2: experience shame as young as eighteen months old. Shame is

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Speaker 2: a societal thing, right, It is a psychological, physiological, emotional experience,

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Speaker 2: and we begin to feel it very early. In all cultures. Really,

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Speaker 2: shame is used to control the problem. What we find

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Speaker 2: is that shame doesn't control. Shame just makes our behavior

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Speaker 2: go underground, so it seems like it's being controlled. So

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Speaker 2: shame is a universal human experience. Shame also creates loneliness.

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Speaker 2: We have a loneliness epidemic in this world right now.

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Speaker 2: And so, yes, my story is a little extreme, but

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Speaker 2: everybody has a shame story.

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Speaker 1: So how did you learn? You know, you talk about

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Speaker 1: that damn of shame breaking up in the NICU. How

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Speaker 1: do you learn to deal with that shame in your

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Speaker 1: own story?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a long journey. And I don't love

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Speaker 2: that word journey because it indicates that there is an

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Speaker 2: actual ending point, right, But for lack of a better word,

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Speaker 2: it has been a long journey and continues still I

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Speaker 2: am in what I call the maintenance phase of complex shame,

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Speaker 2: and that is the goals to get to that maintenance phase.

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Speaker 2: I talk about eight steps to overcoming complex shame. I

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Speaker 2: think maybe what we should talk about first is maybe

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Speaker 2: the difference between guilt, simple shame, complex shame.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's great, that's right, because you have this,

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Speaker 1: you say, you say here in in in the book,

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Speaker 1: whether you have simple shame, complex shame, or toxic shame,

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Speaker 1: and you say, I'll break down the difference been the

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Speaker 1: pages to come. So yeah, maybe break down the differences

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Speaker 1: between simple, complex and toxic shame and guilt.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, So we'll start with guilt. So guilt is

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Speaker 2: a healthy emotion when it's valid. And there's invalid guilt,

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Speaker 2: plenty of people feel that, But when guilt is valid,

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Speaker 2: it is a healthy, motivating emotion. Guilt tells us I've

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Speaker 2: done something wrong to break my moral code. So if

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Speaker 2: you feel you've done something wrong to break your moral code,

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Speaker 2: there is something to do about it. And guilt motivates that.

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Speaker 2: It motivates us to change, so we can go back

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Speaker 2: and repair. If we can't repair, we go back and

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Speaker 2: we can apologize, and we can also then decide I

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Speaker 2: will not do that in the future. Right, So it's

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Speaker 2: a motivating, healthy emotion. Shame is different and sometimes it

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Speaker 2: feels the same, and it's very difficult to kind of

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Speaker 2: understand the difference. But shame is a physiological state, emotional

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Speaker 2: state that and a message that we send to ourselves

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Speaker 2: that says I am unworthy. It gets attached to our

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Speaker 2: identity who we are. And if I am unworthy, then

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Speaker 2: there's nothing for me to do except for hide it

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Speaker 2: so that other people can't see it. Right. So guilt

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Speaker 2: motivates change. Shame just makes us hide. And that's why

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Speaker 2: shame in all its forms is unhealthy. Now there's simple shame,

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Speaker 2: and Brene Brown talks a lot about what I call

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Speaker 2: simple shame. Everybody has shame. And when we get to

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Speaker 2: a point where we can talk about it, when you

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Speaker 2: can share what you did or what happened to you

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Speaker 2: or the thing for which you are shamed, and other

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Speaker 2: people give you grace, other people say I understand, other

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Speaker 2: people validate you, your shame actually disappears. And plenty of

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Speaker 2: people have had that experience where they speak up, they

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Speaker 2: become vulnerable, they experience this external validation and their shame

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Speaker 2: goes away. Right. That's simple shame up. Sorry. Complex shame

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Speaker 2: is when, for instance, you do something like that and

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Speaker 2: two things happen, or two things could happen. The first

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Speaker 2: is someone gives you that validation and your internal response is, oh,

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Speaker 2: you don't really understand. You don't know because you don't understand.

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Speaker 2: There's so many layers to this shame that if you

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Speaker 2: really knew and understood, you wouldn't give me that validation,

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Speaker 2: and so your shame remains and it actually dives deeper.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that can happen is that you don't

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Speaker 2: get that external validation. You're gaslet, you're told that you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe you don't really know what you're talking about, or

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Speaker 2: that didn't really happen, or you saw it differently, or

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Speaker 2: you're judged. And this can happen a lot with marginalized communities,

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Speaker 2: where the things that happen to us are just kind

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Speaker 2: of ignored or we're gas lit about it, and then

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Speaker 2: our shame goes deeper. So that is the difference between

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Speaker 2: simple shame and complex shame. I don't talk a lot

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Speaker 2: about toxic shame, and I didn't talk a lot about

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Speaker 2: it in the book because toxic shame is something very different.

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Speaker 2: It can grow similarly in the way that complex shame does,

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Speaker 2: but it's definitely rooted in trauma and it is more

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Speaker 2: severe than complex shame. Most people who may think they

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Speaker 2: have talked shame actually have complex shame.

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Speaker 1: M you say in the book it says if you

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Speaker 1: think of toxic shame as a spectrum, which you know,

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Speaker 1: I talk about alcohol use disorder, and that's right. So

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Speaker 1: I think listeners of this podcast can appreciate that language.

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Speaker 1: If you think of toxic shame as a spectrum, complex

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Speaker 1: shame should be considered on that spectrum because they both

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Speaker 1: form from toxic shame messages, but they function and are

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Speaker 1: expressed differently. So I think that's a that's an all

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Speaker 1: that you know, you explain it well in the book

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Speaker 1: is is that spectrum? Maybe explain that spectrum a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we talk about when I talk about

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Speaker 2: express differently, that's when I begin to talk about internalizer,

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Speaker 2: vicious externalizer. So when we look at a toxic message,

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Speaker 2: it create shame. Right, Toxic messages create shame, and specifically

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Speaker 2: create complex shame and or toxic shame. People who have

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Speaker 2: complex shame tend to be in internalizers, so they temperamentally

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Speaker 2: will take the shame on themselves, right, They will hurt themselves.

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Speaker 2: There's that saying hurt people, hurt, hurt people, hurt people, right, Well,

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Speaker 2: hurt people hurt themselves, and especially people with complex shame,

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Speaker 2: they take all of that shame and they internalize it.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: People with toxic shame tend to be externalizers, so they

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Speaker 2: take that shame and they spew it onto other people.

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Speaker 2: So we see that in personality disorders right where they

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Speaker 2: are toxic to be around because they are spewing their

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Speaker 2: shame externally, they're not able to really take it in

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Speaker 2: on a conscious level. Whereas people with complex shame they're

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Speaker 2: internalizing it. They actually make perfect victims for externalizers, those

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Speaker 2: toxic shame people, because they're just going to take it

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Speaker 2: all in right and take the blame.

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Speaker 1: So before we get to the steps, I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you about this I think I talk about in

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Speaker 1: my book, and you are a believer as well, so

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Speaker 1: I think this makes sense. But I talk about the

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Speaker 1: difference between worldly worldly godly grief and worldly shaw and

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Speaker 1: I think that's a different way to maybe talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff you're talking about. But it sounds

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Speaker 1: like that when you are talking about grief, right, especially

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Speaker 1: a grief that is motivated by our faith. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's the godly grief, right, Godly grief leads to repentance,

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Speaker 1: Right's the that's the scripture, right, And so it sounds

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Speaker 1: like when you are talking about your tom of just grief,

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Speaker 1: would you say that that that is kind of that

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Speaker 1: godly grief?

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Speaker 2: What I'm talking about?

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Speaker 1: Grief or guilt, I'm sorry, guilt, yes, godly guilty.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, Yes, that's okay, yes, exactly. And and you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't think about this, and I

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Speaker 2: believe most Christians don't because a lot of Christians that

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Speaker 2: shame is a good thing and we should feel the

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Speaker 2: sense of shame, the sense of that.

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Speaker 1: I've heard that people have come back at me with that,

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Speaker 1: like you should feel shame for your actions. And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: we got to be really careful with the terms we're

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Speaker 1: using here.

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Speaker 2: We do, we do because that sent that message that

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Speaker 2: we as humans are unworthy actually is the antithesis of

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Speaker 2: what Christ says, right, He came to us because we

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Speaker 2: are worthy. He came to us to show us our worth.

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Speaker 2: He died for us because he saw our worth. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's not about us being unworthy. It is about us

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Speaker 2: being guilty, right, But it's not about us being unworthy.

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Speaker 2: And if you think back to the Genesis, this is

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Speaker 2: when shame was first introduced in the world. We had

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Speaker 2: the fall. Right, God created Adam and Eve. How did

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Speaker 2: he create them without shame? Right? And at the fall

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Speaker 2: Satan introduced shame. He created shame. And the purpose of

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Speaker 2: shame is to distance us from God. When Adam and

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Speaker 2: Eve begun to feel that shame, they immediately hid. And

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Speaker 2: God came to them and he said, why are you hiding?

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Speaker 2: I didn't make you this way. I didn't make you

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Speaker 2: ashamed of your nakedness. Right. And it was sin that

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Speaker 2: created shame. We are not meant to live in shame.

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Speaker 2: We are meant to live free of sin and shame.

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Speaker 2: Right now, Guilt, like I said, leads us to repentance.

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Speaker 2: Shame only distances us from God.

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Speaker 1: And I think that, Yeah, in my book, you know,

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Speaker 1: I talk about like the shame is what Judas felt. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Judas felt shame.

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Speaker 2: And he might have felt some guilt too because he

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Speaker 2: did do something wrong. But yes, he felt a deep

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Speaker 2: sense of shame.

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Speaker 1: Right, And Peter felt guilt and didn't let that in

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Speaker 1: the sense turn into shame because he turned back towards

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Speaker 1: Jesus exactly exactly. Yes, you mention and earlier these the

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Speaker 1: steps if you will walk us through and I we

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Speaker 1: could do a whole interview on that, right, but kind

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Speaker 1: of walk us through those steps. You talked about how

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Speaker 1: your inmateance. What are those steps on that you know,

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Speaker 1: that quote unquote journey. We'll be right back after.

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Speaker 2: This, yes, yes, So the first step with complex shame

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Speaker 2: is first, actually you have that initial shame experience and

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Speaker 2: then you have to get to a point. Well, okay,

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Speaker 2: so you have the initial shame experience, and then what

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Speaker 2: happens I'm just talking about what happens in complex shame

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Speaker 2: is that then we begin to experience the sense of

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Speaker 2: self hate, right, yeah, this, you know, we get shame

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Speaker 2: and guilt and self hate all kind of mixed together.

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Speaker 2: And then what we tend to do is harm. We

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Speaker 2: self harm. We harm ourselves in various ways. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: through addictions, sometimes it's through people pleasing. Sometimes it's through

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Speaker 2: you know, actual physically hurting ourselves. That is a result

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Speaker 2: of shame when we're hiding, right, and so hopefully you

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Speaker 2: get to this place. The next step would be self awareness,

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Speaker 2: where you begin to be aware that shame exists. And

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Speaker 2: for anyone out there, I can tell you how you

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Speaker 2: find it. Anywhere that you hide in your life, anywhere

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Speaker 2: that you feel like, oh, I don't want them to know,

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Speaker 2: or oh let me not show them this. I don't

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Speaker 2: want them to find out. That is exactly where your

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Speaker 2: shame is. And so to have self awareness and you

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Speaker 2: can name it, oh, this is shame. Now we're beginning

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Speaker 2: to kind of get on the road towards healing. So

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Speaker 2: then what we have to do, especially when we have

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Speaker 2: complex shame, because with simple shame, you get self awareness,

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Speaker 2: you become vulnerable, it goes away, right, you can practice

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Speaker 2: that on the daily. With complex shame, you need to

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Speaker 2: begin to deconstruct the blame because with complex shame, if

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Speaker 2: you remember, I told you, there's so many layers that

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Speaker 2: are attached to that shame. Someone did something to me,

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Speaker 2: then I did something to myself, and this happened, and

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Speaker 2: then I hurt this person or I did it's so

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Speaker 2: much it's like a snowball that's kind of rolling down

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Speaker 2: a hill and just collecting all of these shame stories

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Speaker 2: and blame, and so you need to be able to

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Speaker 2: start taking it apart all of the blame stories that

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Speaker 2: you tell yourself. You need to figure out what was mine,

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Speaker 2: what was not mine? What do I blame myself for?

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Speaker 2: And then you need to work on Once you've kind

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Speaker 2: of deconstructed it, you need to begin to talk about

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Speaker 2: it and become vulnerable with healthy people. Right now, vulnerability

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Speaker 2: is not the healing. Remember, the healing begins when you

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Speaker 2: begin to forgive yourself, and especially for people who have

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Speaker 2: been victimized, that concept of forgiving myself for my own victimization,

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Speaker 2: how does that work? And a lot of therapists will say, oh, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: we need to let go of blame right and just

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Speaker 2: get you to understand that it's not your fault. But

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Speaker 2: our brain doesn't work that way when it comes to

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Speaker 2: complex shame. So what we have to do is actually

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Speaker 2: take account to build for all the little things that

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Speaker 2: we did and didn't do even in the midst of

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Speaker 2: our own victimization. And when we're able to do that

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Speaker 2: and forgive ourselves, we're working with our brain in the

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Speaker 2: way our brain works, and then shame can begin to

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Speaker 2: dissipate Now, when I talk about that word forgiveness, a

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Speaker 2: lot of people have with it. It is hard. It's

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Speaker 2: hard to understand. We don't want to give that to anybody,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes we don't even want to give it to ourselves, right.

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Speaker 2: And so the quote that I love about forgiveness is

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Speaker 2: forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past.

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Speaker 2: That's not attached to anybody. It's not even attached to yourself.

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Speaker 2: It's just a reality. And when you can begin to

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Speaker 2: work with that and really look at every single one

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Speaker 2: of your blame stories and give up all hope that

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Speaker 2: it could have been different, you're beginning to get there.

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Speaker 2: And so then there's acceptance, right, and that's part of

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Speaker 2: the forgiveness. You've got the forgiveness and you've got the acceptance,

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Speaker 2: and then you have the maintenance. And the maintenance is

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Speaker 2: because shame will never go away in our society. It

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Speaker 2: was created in Genesis, and as long as the enemy

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Speaker 2: has rule over this earth, it will be here. Right.

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Speaker 2: Our job is to learn to know when it shows

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Speaker 2: up and then to not do what shame asks us

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Speaker 2: to do. Shame asks us to hide. So when shame

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Speaker 2: shows up in my life, I identify it. Oh, I

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Speaker 2: know what that is. That's shame. I'm going to do

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Speaker 2: the exact thing opposite that shame wants me to do.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to speak up instead of hide, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to just watch it like float by like a river.

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Speaker 2: And that's when you're in maintenance stage. How you make

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Speaker 2: friends with what I call the phantom critic, that part

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Speaker 2: of you that wants to shame yourself. And one last

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Speaker 2: thing is part of the whole process of self forgiveness

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Speaker 2: is understanding that all behavior makes sense in its context.

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Speaker 2: And you look at your life if you can look

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Speaker 2: at the lives of other people and understand that truly

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Speaker 2: every behavior makes complete sense if you understand this person

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Speaker 2: from the moment they were born, before they were born,

430
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 2: their temperament, personality, all their life experiences, all the decisions

431
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: and choices, good or bad, that we made make complete sense.

432
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: And we can use that to help us give up

433
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: all hope of a better past.

434
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: Giving a Paul hope of a better pass. That is

435
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: such an interesting way to phrase it. Yeah, when I

436
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: initially was working on my book, because I have a

437
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: chapter on shame mm hmm that is not as detailed

438
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: or as great as your entire book.

439
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: That's my whole books about that.

440
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, But you know I originally titled the chapter

441
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: Overcoming Shame, And just as I got into it, I

442
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: realized exactly what you said, which is I think, you know,

443
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: like like like Jesus says the poor will always be

444
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: with you, It's like, ye, shame will always be with

445
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: you right this side of a redeemed world, right this

446
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: side of heaven. Right. And so I think I was

447
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: glad to hear you say that because I was like, yeah,

448
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: I think we we aren't going to see a shame

449
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: free world right now, right, so we have to learn

450
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: what to do about it. So maintenance, right, you've brought

451
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: that up a couple times. What is your advice? And

452
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 1: you kind of got into a little bit and so

453
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: maybe it's just diving deeper into that, But what does

454
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: maintenance look for someone who has look like for someone

455
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: who has struggled with toxic shame?

456
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: M That's a great question. And you know I regularly

457
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: use words like healing, overcoming, shame free, and those words

458
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: I use because people kind of kind of understand that.

459
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: But you're right, exactly what we just said is that it,

460
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: you know, healing from shame is getting in a maintenance

461
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 2: stage essentially, right, And so for someone who has toxic shame,

462
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: that maintenance stage looks like getting to a point where

463
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: getting these words past your lips feels like butter instead

464
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: of like a concrete wall. Yeah, the best way that

465
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: I can kind of explain it, and it doesn't start

466
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: that way when you first begin. I don't know if

467
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: you've ever seen anybody try to talk about something that

468
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: they are so shameful of for the very first time.

469
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: You can see in their body language. You can see

470
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: the burden on their shoulders, you see in their facial expressions,

471
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: the stuttering, all of the ways that they try to

472
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: get these words out. And when you're in a maintenance stage,

473
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: and this is why I can smile and talk about

474
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: shame with joy, because there is so much freedom on

475
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: the other side of shame, right, and I want people

476
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: to experience the freedom because I have felt that huge

477
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: boulder on my shoulders, and so you know, being on

478
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: the other side and in maintenance just feels like freedom

479
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: where not only can you speak it easily, but also

480
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: here's the thing that is so sabotaging about shame on

481
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: is that shame makes us hide, right, But it makes

482
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: us hide everywhere, It makes us hide in our relationships,

483
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: it makes us hide in that and when and the

484
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: reaon what happens is when we hide. If someone loves

485
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: us and someone gives us that applause, right, we cannot

486
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: even take it in because there's that part of us

487
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: that says, they don't really know me. If they knew

488
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: you wouldn't love me, they wouldn't like me, they wouldn't

489
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: applaud me. And so then we actually respond as if

490
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: we are not loved, and we feel unloved, unappreciated, all

491
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: those things. But when you are able to show up

492
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: authentically without that shame, all of a sudden, all of

493
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: that is available to you. Feel the love, you feel

494
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: the freedom you're walking in that. So that's what the

495
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: maintenance stage looks like.

496
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: So you know, obviously as a as someone who counselors people,

497
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, you you have to counsel people at different stages,

498
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: different faith, different I'm curious because my audience is generally Christian,

499
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: how do you how do you integrate you know, faith

500
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: and Christ into that kind of understanding. You know, for

501
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: those of us who you know, I joke like, you

502
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: know in AA circles and when out we talk about

503
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: the higher Power, and I'm like, I get to know

504
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: who the higher power is, right, the higher about right?

505
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: So I'm curious how that factors in for people of

506
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: of not just people of faith, but for Christians, right.

507
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: You know, I talk to a lot of Christians and

508
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: especially Christian women, and there's this whole movement of deconstruction, right,

509
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: especially among you know, Christian women who maybe have some

510
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: alignment with femininity, with feminism and are trying to kind

511
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: of understand where do I even belong in the church

512
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: because I feel like the Church doesn't even value me

513
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: right and when? And shame is often a big part

514
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: of that. And so what I try to encourage women

515
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: especially to understand is that our relationship with God is

516
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: not the same as our relationship with the Church is

517
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: not the same as relationship with humans. And often we

518
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: put those two together as if Church is God and

519
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: God is Church, and we forget that Church is just

520
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: made of humans, right, who are broken, who project shame.

521
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: And if we can understand that, just like I said

522
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: in Genesis, God made us without shame. God understands our psyche,

523
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: He created our psyche, He knows how we work in here.

524
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: He's not confused about it, and we don't have to

525
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: explain it to him. And he's also not shocked by

526
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: the things that we've done and the things that have

527
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: happened to us. And so if we understand that our

528
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: shame makes us want to hide from God, then what

529
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: we have to do is we have to do the

530
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: opposite again. We have to come to God with all

531
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: of our true feelings, not just repentance, which is important,

532
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: but our anger, right thought, our confusion, our doubts. Those

533
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: are the things that we are often shameful to come

534
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: to God with because we've been taught, especially you know,

535
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: as Christians, that you just have to have faith. Right.

536
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: As a kid, I felt shame if I ever had

537
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: questions about the Bible or Christianity because I was taught

538
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: you just have to believe right, and there must be

539
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: something wrong with me if I'm questioning. And so, you know,

540
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: that's the kind of discussions that I like to have

541
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: with people of faith, is how do you take your

542
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: real self to God, not just your repentant self, but

543
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: your real self shame free, because that's what God wants

544
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: of us. That's how he created us.

545
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: So you mentioned it's one of your steps is vulnerability, right,

546
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: and I talk about radical vulnerability and kind of.

547
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: You've been radically excuse me, you've been radically vulnerable in

548
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: your book. I've been radically vulnerable in my book.

549
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, And I think you know, vulnerability as a

550
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: as a terming concept. I think you know, Brene Brown

551
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: has done a lot to kind of bring that to

552
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: the surface over the last decade, and it's been helpful.

553
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: But you know, kind of part of my thesis is, yeah,

554
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: and now we've gotten used to that, right, Like we

555
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: know how to fake it, right. It's like it's like

556
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: you take antibiotics for something, You got to keep taking

557
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: stronger antibiotics, right. So, but but I would love to

558
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: hear a little bit more about what you've learned about

559
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: the power of vulnerability to combat shame. M hmm.

560
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: You know, I like to think less about that term

561
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: radical vulnerability and more about like healthy vulnerability, because I

562
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: think in the book I talked about this concept of like,

563
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: you know, you're at a dinner, you know, party, and

564
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: some woman begins to just kind of talk about like

565
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 2: her you know, deepest, darkest secret, and it just becomes

566
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: very cringe and awkward, right, because that wasn't the place.

567
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: And so what I'm not encouraging people to do is

568
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: to spew their vulnerability without a purpose.

569
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not all willing. It's not like one of

570
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: those you know, those those those guys, uh yeah, those

571
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 1: streamer guys they put out in front of car dealerships. Right,

572
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's not let's let's not just go wild

573
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: like and it's funny because that's some of the pushback

574
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: I get. And I think some people think that I'm

575
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: saying that right, that that it's just like whenever, wherever

576
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: to whoever. No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying, right,

577
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: And that's why in my book I even talk about

578
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: going just one step further than you're comfortable going right,

579
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: to practice it right and have wisdom there. So I'm glad.

580
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: I'm glad you made that distinction. So sorry, you've got.

581
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 2: No, that's fine. And I think there's a difference between

582
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:19,479
Speaker 2: public vulnerability and private vulnerability, right, public vulnerability. The only

583
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: place for public vulnerability is when you have already healed

584
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: from something. And in your book and in my book,

585
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: I talk about the fact that I'm sharing this very deep,

586
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: vulnerable story, but not from a place of pain, not

587
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: from a place of bleeding right, but from a place

588
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 2: of health so that I can help other people get there.

589
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: But I didn't start there. I started sharing it in

590
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: quiet rooms and dark places. I started sharing it in

591
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: private right before. After years and years, I got to

592
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 2: a place of being able to share it publicly. But

593
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 2: for your own healing, that raw vulnerability that you wouldn't

594
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: share in public is super important for you to practice

595
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: and small safe spaces for your own healing.

596
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: I think it was you, maybe Zoe on one of

597
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: our we have a Zoe and I are part of

598
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: this incredible just community is unlike community of people who

599
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: write about this kind of stuff, And I think it

600
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: was you maybe in one of those calls it said,

601
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna botch it, but basically like like, only

602
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: only share what you've healed from And you kind of

603
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: said that here, but but I felt like it was

604
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 1: more pithy and great.

605
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: But yeah, I've said it before and I know exactly

606
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 2: what you're talking about. It's it's essentially about not writing

607
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 2: from a place of I don't remember what it was,

608
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: but not writing from a place of pain. But writing

609
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 2: from a place of healing. But I also talk about

610
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: for writers, especially because I talk and teach a lot

611
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 2: of writers, and you should write from a place of pain,

612
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: but you shouldn't publish from a place of pain. You

613
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: publish my place of healing. Right. But it's important for

614
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: us to write, it's important for us to talk and

615
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 2: be vulnerable because that is how we heal. But it's

616
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 2: not all for outside consumption. And that's the thing that

617
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: people have to understand with vulnerability. Vulnerability is so important.

618
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 2: You just have to understand the places and the platforms

619
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 2: that are worthy of your vulnerability in that moment in

620
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 2: your life. And they're things that you know. It's funny

621
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: because I'm sure you have the same experience, John. We

622
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 2: have poured out so much in our books and people

623
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: feel like they know every single thing. And yet still

624
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 2: there are things that I have kept to myself, either

625
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: while we weren't necessary to share to further my goal

626
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: right for other people to heal, or number two, they're

627
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 2: not ready for outside consumption yet. Consumption yet and maybe

628
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: in the future those stories will be shared. And so

629
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 2: sometimes people can think, oh, they just bared it all,

630
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 2: and we did on some level, and yet we also didn't.

631
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny you bring that up, because I think

632
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: that was maybe a little bit of the internal argument

633
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: I had with God when he said my next book

634
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: was going to be about alcoholism and he knew. I mean,

635
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: I had been on this healing journey to kind of

636
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: heal this this stuff, and I'm like, you know, maybe

637
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: there was part of it. It's like, nah, I you know, God,

638
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: I don't.

639
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: I don't.

640
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm as healed as you think I am,

641
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: you know. And He's like, no, like and and and

642
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: and yet there are still things I held back in

643
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: in the book to your point, things that my wife,

644
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, was like, Hey, I'm not healed from that.

645
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: You may be healed from that, yeah, right, but I'm

646
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: not healed from that. That actually brings up a question

647
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you because one of the one

648
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: of the questions, one of the topics that comes up

649
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 1: a lot when I start talking about vulnerability is how

650
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 1: do we talk about aspects of our story that involve

651
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: other people that they may not want us to share. So,

652
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: I mean, Zoe, you're talking about your parents' reaction to

653
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: your pregnancy, right, I don't I don't know, maybe you

654
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: can share with us. I don't know what they think

655
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: about that, right, but I know I have some family

656
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: members who are not happy with me sharing certain certain details.

657
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 1: I've tried to honor and respect them by by being

658
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: respectful in the way that I share those details. I

659
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 1: can share those in a very gratuitous, you know way,

660
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: but I've decided, hey, you know, it's not honoring to

661
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: be silent about it, but I can honor them in

662
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: the way that I share about that. That's kind of

663
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: been my personal barometer. But I'm curious how do you

664
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: handle that, you know, when when you've maybe healed from

665
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: something some one else hasn't. In the case of my wife,

666
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, you know what, I'm not going to

667
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: share that. But maybe in the case of your parents,

668
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: you're like, no, that is part of my story, so

669
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: I'm going to share that. I'm just curious how you

670
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: deal with that personally. We'll be right back after this.

671
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: It's an excellent question because I feel like I have

672
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: kind of I don't know if radical is the word,

673
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 2: but I may think differently than some people. I got

674
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: a temporary tattoo when I was writing this book and

675
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to make it permanent. And the tattoo was

676
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: on my forearm and it said, you own your story.

677
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: And so I've had to think because yes, I had

678
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 2: all of those concerns, all of those fears, all of

679
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: that shame about sharing the story that I've been taught,

680
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: taught to keep a secret, directed to keep a secret.

681
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 2: And what I have come to is the belief that

682
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: we do as humans, we own our own stories, and

683
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 2: if we decide to share them, which we have full

684
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 2: right too because they are our stories, we have to

685
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: make sure that we only tell our story. Now. Are

686
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 2: other people involved one hundred percent? And the way that

687
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: I work that out is I do not interpret their meaning,

688
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 2: their intention. I simply state what happened. Now. I can

689
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: talk about how I felt, all the things that were

690
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 2: racing in my mind right, all of the emotions that

691
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: I've felt as a result of what someone else may

692
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: have done. But I do not tell their story. That

693
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: is their right to tell the story. Now. That has

694
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: not come without very hard conversations, both with myself, with

695
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: God and my mother. I chose because I know I

696
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: still am in a maintenance phase with my own codependency.

697
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: I am still in a phase with my own complex shame.

698
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: I did not share my book with my mother until

699
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: I could not change a thing. Other people have different

700
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: choices about how they do that and priorities for people

701
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 2: in their lives, but for me, I knew that if

702
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 2: I shared the book with her, I would change things

703
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: that shouldn't have been changed. Interesting, And I gave the ARC,

704
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: you know, the ARC when it's almost done, basically advance

705
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: review copy.

706
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 1: It stands for.

707
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 2: Right advance review copy when you basically can't change anything,

708
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,959
Speaker 2: maybe a period or something. And I had already done

709
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: the audible, the audio, you know, recording, and I gave

710
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 2: the ARC to my mother and we had a very

711
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 2: very hard conversation. I love my mother dearly and we

712
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: have a good relationship. This issue in particular, though, has

713
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: been very hard. She felt that what I wrote was

714
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: a sin, and you know, she confronted me about it,

715
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: and I had to really just kind of sit with,

716
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: you know, all of the things that she said to me,

717
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: to just kind of evaluate is there any truth in this?

718
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 2: And I came to the same place. Number one, I

719
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: was thankful that I had waited until the ARC, because

720
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 2: after that conversation, my codependency and complex shame would have

721
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: changed some things in that book. And so I was

722
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: thankful that I made that choice. And then it was

723
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 2: just a matter of, you know, really hard conversations with

724
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: my mom.

725
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I h I wish you and I would have

726
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: had that conversation, this conversation a little earlier. And because yeah,

727
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: there are some stuff that I wrote in my book

728
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: that I ended up changing based on feedback from some

729
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 1: family family members that yeah, perhaps perhaps if I would

730
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: have taken your approach and listen, I love those people

731
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: and they listened to this podcast. I love you, Okay,

732
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: I love you, Mom.

733
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 2: I love you, and you know.

734
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: That, right, right, But yeah, I think you know and

735
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: and and and and everything that is still in the

736
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: book is still I mean, it's it's great, right, But

737
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: you're right, I mean, and I think that's a helpful.

738
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: It's like, where someone else's story intersects with yours, you

739
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: have the right to tell that, right, I wrote. I

740
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: wrote a piece as we're recording this, I had something

741
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: really crazy happened to me last week and I wrote

742
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: about it and and you know, the person that had

743
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: involved read it, and I don't think they are happy.

744
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: But I'm like, listen, this is what happened. And I'm

745
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: not trying to shame you. I'm not trying to berich you.

746
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to make you look I changed details

747
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 1: so that the person is unidentifiable. But there's a part

748
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: of me that codependency, that that's that shame, that's like,

749
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, what I'm like, No, but this is like,

750
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: this is like, you know, I write my daily devotional

751
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: is based on what I spend my quiet time in

752
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: the morning and what I feel like the Lord leads

753
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: me to write. And I felt like the Lord was

754
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: leading me to write that, and so I did it.

755
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 1: But it springs up and this is something I I

756
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, I know you have another book to write,

757
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: but and so I don't. I don't know. Uh, I

758
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: just I'm exploring this more and so you're getting some

759
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: of this as as these unfiltered thoughts. But this idea

760
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: of codependency, can you can you? I need to do

761
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: an entire podcast episode on this, but you know, can you.

762
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: I've started to talk about this with my own therapist

763
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: because I'm realizing, oh shoot, I think I think I

764
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: have some codependency going on, right, Can you explain codependency

765
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: and then and then if it's helpful, maybe how that

766
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: interacts with Shane. Yeah.

767
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: So you know, one of the best ways that I

768
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 2: explain codependency is it is a deep it's ant to

769
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 2: drive and someone to essentially control. So a lot of

770
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 2: people think codependent people are weak. Codependent people are actually controlling,

771
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 2: and they do it often in a very passive way

772
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: because their desire is to control other people's emotions and

773
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: connection with them such that they feel safe. Right, So

774
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 2: I people, please to keep you happy with me so

775
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 2: that you feel good about me. Right, I do all

776
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 2: these things. I bend myself into a pretzel. I make

777
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: sure I don't say anything bad about you because I

778
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 2: want to control your narrative about me. I want to

779
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: control your emotions so that I feel good, because if

780
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 2: you're not good, I'm not good, Yeah, instead of me

781
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: being able to be okay if you're not okay. So

782
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,919
Speaker 2: that's kind of my definition of codependency.

783
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: Ye definitely need to be working through some of that,

784
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: that's for sure. But I think you know people pleasing, right,

785
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: I mean I've I've been able to recognize for years

786
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: that people pleasing. But I think and this is you know,

787
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: I talk about my book getting to the roots, right,

788
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: and that sometimes you think you're at a route and

789
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: then you realize it goes deeper. So it's like I've

790
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: been like, oh, people pleasing, that's a root, Yeah, and

791
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: but it goes a little deeper to like codependency, Yes, exactly,

792
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that's what I'm that's what

793
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: I'm starting to realize. One more one more thing about vulnerability.

794
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: I think as I've h I don't think it's any

795
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: coincidence that this this writer's group that you and I

796
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: have mentioned earlier, is like I'm one of the only men,

797
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: and in what a lot of you women in the

798
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: group have even told me is that is that it's

799
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: being vulnerable talking about things. It's not something we see

800
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: in men, right, as much as we do women. Can

801
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: you a maybe pontificate a little bit on why you

802
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: think that is and be what is your advice to

803
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: men to become more vulnerable, which then will help combat shame?

804
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, shame is one of those societal uh,

805
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 2: you know, things that makes us hide, right, and so

806
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 2: it's hard for women to talk about shame. It's hard

807
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: for women to be vulnerable and it's ten times as

808
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: hard for men. Part of the reason is because men

809
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: are taught to be strong. Men are taught to ignore

810
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: emotions and take care of the thing, and emotions are

811
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 2: seen as weakness. And you know, shame is an emotion,

812
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: and so it's one of those things that you don't express.

813
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 2: And you know, as much as I would like to

814
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 2: give advice to men on what to do, I feel

815
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 2: like what I really need to do is give advice

816
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: to women because we perpetuate this in our partners. We

817
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 2: ask them to, you know, be vulnerable, We ask them to,

818
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, be emotionally intelligent, and when they show up

819
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: with their sadness, with their pain, with their shame, a

820
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: lot of women push them away because a lot of

821
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: women have this idea, I need you to be strong

822
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 2: for me. I don't want you to do this, and

823
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: men get that message loud and clear, and so I

824
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 2: actually want to implore women to be soft and understand

825
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: that your man can talk about shame and that doesn't

826
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 2: mean he's not strong, it doesn't mean he's not available

827
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: for you. It doesn't mean that your you know, foundation

828
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 2: is going to crush because men are not given permission

829
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: to talk about their shame and vulnerability. And so I

830
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: don't even know honestly what to say to men except

831
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 2: you know, maybe have these conversations. Share this with your wife,

832
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 2: because the men that I talk to say, I can't

833
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: do that in my marriage. That's not available to me

834
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 2: in my relationship. I have to be strong. That's how

835
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: she wants me. She doesn't really care about all of

836
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 2: these things that I'm coming to you that you you know,

837
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: the therapist about, and I'm saying women, our men need

838
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 2: us to be that safe space for them.

839
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: It didn't make it in the book. I think it

840
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: got taken out in final edits. But you know, Brene

841
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: Brown has us this story where she's at a conference

842
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: and she's talking about vulnerability and this guy comes up

843
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 1: to her at the end and says, you know, this

844
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: is all fine and fine and dandy, right, but my

845
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: wife and my daughters don't ever want to see me

846
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: as anything but the night and shining armor and the

847
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: moment that I that they that I am, not that

848
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: they're like, you know, to your point that their their

849
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: opinion of me changes and all that kind of thing.

850
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: And I think to your point, Burnet kind of had

851
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,959
Speaker 1: this awakening moment. Oh my gosh. Yeah, like, so thank

852
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: you for saying that.

853
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 2: That is time and time again in my practice.

854
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chapter seven of your book is called

855
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: fixing others Won't fix You. Yes, and maybe that's a

856
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: little bit about some of the stuff we've talked about.

857
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 1: But I'm curious it says fixing others won't fix you

858
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 1: breaking the cycle? Can you explain that concept? Well?

859
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: You know what I didn't answer that you asked me

860
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 2: before is how is codependency attached to shame? Right? Yeah,

861
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: And we talked about codependency and fixing others part is

862
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,879
Speaker 2: part of that codependent behavior where if I can see

863
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: I see the potential in them, right, and if I

864
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 2: can help them reach their potential, if I can say

865
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 2: that from all their childhood trauma, if I can be

866
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 2: that for them, then they will love me. And if

867
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 2: they love me, then I will feel fixed. Right. And

868
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: so we search for relationships that are sometimes you know,

869
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 2: potential or with broken people and an effort to fix

870
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 2: them so that they will heal us. And the reality

871
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 2: is is that that healing thing is a one person

872
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: job that you've got to do for yourself. And when

873
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: we seek out other people to make us whole, to

874
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: fix us to you know, as Brene Brown talks about

875
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: hustling for our worthiness, right, We're always going to be

876
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: hustling for our worthiness. And so yes, we need to

877
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: partner with people who already are at a place that

878
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: we can accept them and we don't feel like we

879
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 2: have to fix them, not because they don't have deficits.

880
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 2: We all have deficits. We need to accept those deficits

881
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: and not expect that by us fixing them then they

882
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: will fix us.

883
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: If you could, well, let me put it like this,

884
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: there are so many great listens in your book, Stronger

885
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: in the Difficult Places, Go pick it up. What do

886
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: you feel like is I won't say the most. I'll

887
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: say one of the most that you feel like lessons

888
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: that you want people to take away from Stronger in

889
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: the Difficult Places.

890
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 2: I think the simple thing is you don't have to hide.

891
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 2: You're already worthy. That's it. And if you can leave

892
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: that and figure that out and attach that to your

893
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 2: core sense of identity, then you'll have that freedom that

894
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 2: I really want people to experience from reading the book.

895
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: So you talked about this Oprah Winfrey Network special, So

896
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 1: a if people want to watch that and get more

897
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: about your story. Where can they find that?

898
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 2: They can find it on the own network, which I

899
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 2: think is like an HBO MAC And I think if

900
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 2: you have like YouTube, you can have connection with owned.

901
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 2: So anywhere we're own right now is streaming or playing. Yeah, okay,

902
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 2: it's called Unlocked Family Secrets, and I believe i'm episode

903
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 2: for maybe.

904
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, I find to watch that.

905
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, just look up or Doctor Zoe and you'll find

906
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: it unlocked on YouTube. There's lots of trailers and stuff

907
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 2: for it, but I think you have to actually have

908
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 2: a subscription to one of the streaming things to see it. Yeah.

909
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: And then if people want to connect with you, where

910
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: is the best place to go.

911
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you can go to my website, which is

912
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 2: doctor Zoe Shaw, but I hang out on social and

913
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: Instagram's my hangout place and the handle is doctor Zoe Shaw.

914
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: Zoe, thank you so much for this conversation. This was

915
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: really great. It went places I didn't expect in the

916
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: best way possible. So I appreciate that your book Stronger

917
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: in the Difficult Places is a g resource, and so

918
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to go pick that up. And you know,

919
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: I think I was having a conversation with someone at

920
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: a coffee shop yesterday, and you know, part of my

921
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 1: message is obviously like shoot for Jesus gets sobriety thrown in,

922
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 1: and yet like in that message, I am not saying

923
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: that it's not helpful to understand your brain, to understand

924
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: how to your body works, like God created your brain,

925
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: God created your body. You alluded to that earlier. And

926
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: so I think for some people, and I am one

927
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: of those people understanding that understanding things like complex, for

928
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: some people it's it's you know it, maybe it's not helpful, fine,

929
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: for me, very helpful, and I think for for for

930
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, it tends to be helpful.

931
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: It's not necessary, but it's really helpful. And so you know,

932
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 1: maybe there are people in your life that you know

933
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: that might could benefit from picking up this book and

934
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: understand these things. And if so, I would encourage you

935
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: to do that. So, Zoe, thank you, Thank you for

936
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: writing Stronger in the Difficult Places. Thank you for your

937
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: vulnerability and sharing your story. Really appreciate you.

938
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 2: Thank you, John, thank you so much for having me

939
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:12,720
Speaker 2: on today.

940
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: Selene for your worthiness right like I love that. Towards

941
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: the end, as we're talking about that, I think so

942
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: many of us are hustling for our worthiness, right we

943
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: and we do that with trying to fix people. We

944
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 1: do that with trying to fix ourselves, right if I

945
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: can just you know, I think that's why the self

946
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: help world is so such a lucrative industry, right and listen,

947
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm all foreging to therapy. I'm all for tactics and

948
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: using things in our lives that can help, right. I'm

949
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: not against those categorically, but I think when we embrace

950
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: those to the detriment of the spiritual healing that needs

951
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: to take place, When we embrace those to the detriment

952
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 1: of the Gospel and think that those are the things

953
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: that are going to make us worthy, like, that's a problem.

954
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: And so I love what Zoe was talking about there.

955
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: Please pick up her books Stronger in the Difficult Places.

956
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: It is definitely helpful. Thank you for being here. If

957
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: there's one person, if there's one thing that you believe

958
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: that resonated with you, please share it with someone else.

959
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: And as always, thank you to our partner Life Audio.

960
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: Lifeaudio dot com to go and check out other great podcasts. Also,

961
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: you may have heard that The Life Recovery Bible is

962
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: now a sponsor of this show, and I think it

963
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: makes a great addition to your Bible collection, or if

964
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: you don't have one, please can sort of picking that up.

965
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:54,959
Speaker 1: The links are The link is to the show notes

966
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: and using that link helps support this show as well.

967
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: Love you all, will see you here next week.