1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Love Offering Podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Adams, 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 2: author of Everyday Prayers for Love, Learning to Love God, Others, 4 00:00:13,260 --> 00:00:16,750 Speaker 2: and Even Yourself. Each week we dive into meaningful conversations 5 00:00:16,790 --> 00:00:19,410 Speaker 2: about how to live out the greatest commandment, loving God 6 00:00:19,430 --> 00:00:21,790 Speaker 2: with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and 7 00:00:21,850 --> 00:00:26,290 Speaker 2: loving our neighbors as ourselves. Whether through inspiring stories, practical wisdom, 8 00:00:26,370 --> 00:00:29,070 Speaker 2: or biblical truth, my hope is to encourage you to 9 00:00:29,270 --> 00:00:32,860 Speaker 2: love boldly, live faithfully, and reflect God's love in your 10 00:00:32,940 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: everyday life. Today, I'm honored to welcome Ellen Mary Dykus 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 2: to the show. Ellen is the director of equipping for 12 00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:42,450 Speaker 2: ministry to Women at Harvest USA, where she has served 13 00:00:42,570 --> 00:00:47,350 Speaker 2: since 2007. She holds a master's degree in theological studies 14 00:00:47,409 --> 00:00:51,349 Speaker 2: from Covenant Theological Seminary and a graduate certificate in biblical 15 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: counseling from the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation. Ellen has 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,150 Speaker 2: authored several resources, including Jesus and Your Unwanted Journey, Wives 17 00:01:00,230 --> 00:01:05,110 Speaker 2: Finding Comfort After Sexual Betrayal. Ellen also co-teaches Hope in 18 00:01:05,170 --> 00:01:08,649 Speaker 2: Your Heartbreak, First Steps for Sexually Betrayed Wives, a free 19 00:01:08,750 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: six-session video course created for women facing the life-altering pain 20 00:01:13,140 --> 00:01:17,619 Speaker 2: of sexual betrayal. Through biblical truth, compassionate guidance, and practical counsel, 21 00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:21,060 Speaker 2: the course helps hurting wives anchor their hearts in Christ 22 00:01:21,140 --> 00:01:25,130 Speaker 2: and discern their first steps forward. Today's conversation addresses sexual 23 00:01:25,170 --> 00:01:29,660 Speaker 2: betrayal in marriage, including pornography and sexual unfaithfulness. Please listen 24 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,580 Speaker 2: with care, especially if the subject is tender or personal 25 00:01:32,670 --> 00:01:36,929 Speaker 2: for you. Well, hello, Ellen, and welcome to the Love 26 00:01:36,950 --> 00:01:38,830 Speaker 2: Offering Podcast. I'm so happy to have you today. 27 00:01:38,850 --> 00:01:43,260 Speaker 1: Hello, Rachel. Yeah, I'm grateful to be here and really 28 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:46,060 Speaker 1: grateful that you want to talk about a really important topic. 29 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: Well, I told you before we hit record, in eight 30 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,050 Speaker 2: seasons of the podcast, we've never had this subject matter 31 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,990 Speaker 2: talked about. And if I'm being honest, it's probably because 32 00:01:57,030 --> 00:01:59,690 Speaker 2: I've not had the courage to talk about it myself. 33 00:01:59,790 --> 00:02:04,410 Speaker 2: And so I applaud your courage and honesty. And I 34 00:02:04,470 --> 00:02:07,830 Speaker 2: know so many people struggle with this or know somebody 35 00:02:07,870 --> 00:02:10,150 Speaker 2: that does. And so it's a really important topic. And 36 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:12,810 Speaker 2: so I'm just thankful that you're willing to share with 37 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: us today. 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,980 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Ready to chat. 39 00:02:16,810 --> 00:02:19,150 Speaker 2: Well, so we're going to dive right in. So I 40 00:02:19,190 --> 00:02:23,090 Speaker 2: want to know, before we discuss this resource, what led 41 00:02:23,150 --> 00:02:27,070 Speaker 2: you to begin walking alongside women who have experienced sexual betrayal? 42 00:02:27,370 --> 00:02:29,670 Speaker 2: Was this part of your own story? I'd love to 43 00:02:29,710 --> 00:02:32,030 Speaker 2: hear more about that. Yeah. 44 00:02:32,050 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate just your honesty about the unease. You said, 45 00:02:35,850 --> 00:02:39,140 Speaker 1: you know, lack of courage to address it. Before I 46 00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: came on staff at Harvest, I would have said the 47 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,730 Speaker 1: exact same thing. So I've not experienced it. sexual betrayal myself. 48 00:02:46,070 --> 00:02:48,630 Speaker 1: And yet the Lord brought me into this ministry here 49 00:02:48,669 --> 00:02:53,300 Speaker 1: at Harvest where we want to offer Christ-centered, gospel-infused hope 50 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:56,420 Speaker 1: and help for people impacted by sexual sin. So when 51 00:02:56,460 --> 00:03:00,060 Speaker 1: I came into this role, I was coming alongside women 52 00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:02,990 Speaker 1: that were wrestling with sexual integrity and then wives who 53 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,730 Speaker 1: had been impacted by a lack of integrity with their husbands. 54 00:03:06,970 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: And Rachel, honestly, there were aspects where I too felt intimidated, like, Lord, 55 00:03:12,180 --> 00:03:14,100 Speaker 1: you're going to have to help me do this. I've 56 00:03:14,139 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: not had the experience of this kind of suffering, but 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,940 Speaker 1: the Lord just clearly led. And I learned from, at 58 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,700 Speaker 1: this point now, the hundreds and hundreds of women that 59 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: I've gotten to walk with. And it's a tragic reality 60 00:03:27,660 --> 00:03:32,100 Speaker 1: that the need for understanding the impact of sexual betrayal 61 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,270 Speaker 1: and for ministry to those who are suffering it is 62 00:03:35,410 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: pretty vast within us. the body of Christ. And so, again, 63 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,700 Speaker 1: I'm just grateful for your desire to open up the 64 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: conversation here with your podcast. 65 00:03:44,620 --> 00:03:47,740 Speaker 2: Well, it is something I have never experienced before either, 66 00:03:47,940 --> 00:03:50,700 Speaker 2: but I do know so many that it has impacted. 67 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: And you mentioned hundreds of thousands of women. And so 68 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: I'd love to know, what have these women taught you 69 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,310 Speaker 2: about heartbreak courage and the compassion of Christ? Mm-hmm. 70 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,100 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so much. I want to just kind of 71 00:04:03,180 --> 00:04:06,780 Speaker 1: answer that from two angles, what they've taught me as 72 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: a woman in ministry in this area and just what 73 00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: I've learned from them. And what I've learned from them 74 00:04:12,260 --> 00:04:15,570 Speaker 1: is I can't tell you how many times after meeting 75 00:04:15,850 --> 00:04:19,350 Speaker 1: with a wife and hearing her story where I just 76 00:04:19,430 --> 00:04:23,010 Speaker 1: would sit back afterwards and think, Lord, how is this 77 00:04:23,089 --> 00:04:27,730 Speaker 1: woman still standing? Like, how is she even in a 78 00:04:27,810 --> 00:04:31,050 Speaker 1: place of, continuing to want to seek you and trust 79 00:04:31,089 --> 00:04:33,830 Speaker 1: you in light of what she has suffered. And that's 80 00:04:33,890 --> 00:04:36,390 Speaker 1: the beauty of the gospel. I've just seen the Lord 81 00:04:36,510 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: move into these broken hearted lives and bring even just 82 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,979 Speaker 1: the first glimmers of hope. And so that can't but 83 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:47,700 Speaker 1: help impact me in my own walk of faith of 84 00:04:48,420 --> 00:04:53,260 Speaker 1: enduring suffering and clinging to Jesus when it feels like 85 00:04:53,310 --> 00:04:55,950 Speaker 1: the bottom has just fallen out. But then, you know, 86 00:04:55,970 --> 00:04:57,710 Speaker 1: the other thing I want to share what I've learned 87 00:04:57,730 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: is Like we both have said, I've not suffered sexual 88 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,950 Speaker 1: betrayal in marriage. And yet what I've learned is that 89 00:05:04,990 --> 00:05:09,490 Speaker 1: when you really understand any aspect of suffering through the 90 00:05:09,529 --> 00:05:14,730 Speaker 1: lens of Christ, he gives you what you need to 91 00:05:14,890 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: move towards a hurting person. And so as I have 92 00:05:19,820 --> 00:05:22,900 Speaker 1: walked with women, they've obviously have known that this hasn't 93 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,220 Speaker 1: been my personal experience. But I've learned that when you 94 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:31,299 Speaker 1: move towards people in Christ with His love, it enables 95 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: you to connect with anybody, regardless of your experience. 96 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,580 Speaker 2: Well, I cannot wait to continue today's conversation, but we're 97 00:05:37,620 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: going to take a brief break to hear a word 98 00:05:39,380 --> 00:05:41,230 Speaker 2: from our sponsor. And when we come back, we'll talk 99 00:05:41,260 --> 00:05:43,810 Speaker 2: about the impact of sexual betrayal and where a hurting 100 00:05:43,870 --> 00:05:50,750 Speaker 2: wife can begin. Welcome back. I am talking with Ellen 101 00:05:50,850 --> 00:05:54,070 Speaker 2: Dykus about a Hope in Your Heartbreak, First Steps for 102 00:05:54,190 --> 00:05:59,010 Speaker 2: Sexually Betrayed Wives. So when a wife discovers pornography use, 103 00:05:59,230 --> 00:06:03,110 Speaker 2: an affair, or another form of sexual unfaithfulness, why can 104 00:06:03,150 --> 00:06:07,110 Speaker 2: that revelation feel so traumatic or disorienting? 105 00:06:07,130 --> 00:06:11,539 Speaker 1: I think the first part of understanding that is to 106 00:06:11,620 --> 00:06:14,980 Speaker 1: understand what God has designed marriage to be, of a 107 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: man and a woman coming together, in a lifelong exclusive 108 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,820 Speaker 1: covenantal relationship where they are promising before God, each other, 109 00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:28,169 Speaker 1: and witnesses that they're going to be committed to one. 110 00:06:28,230 --> 00:06:31,450 Speaker 1: Of course, there's going to be other relationships of friendship 111 00:06:31,510 --> 00:06:35,610 Speaker 1: and family, but there's a unique oneness of life that 112 00:06:35,650 --> 00:06:39,140 Speaker 1: a husband and wife are committing to. Their shared sexual 113 00:06:39,220 --> 00:06:42,229 Speaker 1: love is one aspect of that. And so When there 114 00:06:42,510 --> 00:06:46,470 Speaker 1: is an intrusion upon that marriage covenant, a breaking of 115 00:06:46,510 --> 00:06:50,690 Speaker 1: that marriage covenant, it can't but help just shatter either spouse. 116 00:06:50,730 --> 00:06:53,690 Speaker 1: I'm going to really be thinking and talking more specifically 117 00:06:53,730 --> 00:06:56,750 Speaker 1: about ministry to wives today because that's been the majority 118 00:06:56,770 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: of my experience. But it's traumatic and disorienting because of 119 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:06,860 Speaker 1: the breaking of the wedding vow. But also because, especially 120 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,820 Speaker 1: if this couple has been married for some time, it 121 00:07:09,870 --> 00:07:12,590 Speaker 1: brings that spouse, it brings that wife to a place 122 00:07:12,790 --> 00:07:16,390 Speaker 1: of realizing, what was my marriage? Like, who are you? 123 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:20,670 Speaker 1: And again, I'm thinking about wives 10 years in, 40 124 00:07:20,670 --> 00:07:23,710 Speaker 1: years in, and these revelations coming out. And it's a 125 00:07:23,930 --> 00:07:27,450 Speaker 1: jarring to their sense of reality because the marriage they 126 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: thought they had doesn't actually exist. And it's so discombobulating. 127 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,020 Speaker 1: So we could talk about that for the entire podcast. 128 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,700 Speaker 1: I'll stop with that. But It's basically just a traumatic 129 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,290 Speaker 1: breaking of what they thought was even their marriage was, 130 00:07:43,830 --> 00:07:46,710 Speaker 1: and it's shown to be it actually wasn't what they 131 00:07:46,730 --> 00:07:47,250 Speaker 1: thought it was. 132 00:07:47,270 --> 00:07:50,710 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I imagine it's not going to be what 133 00:07:50,770 --> 00:07:54,210 Speaker 2: they hoped that it would be. And I also imagine 134 00:07:54,250 --> 00:07:58,420 Speaker 2: that many wives, they wonder what they did wrong or 135 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: whether they were somehow not enough. What truth would you 136 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: offer the woman blaming herself for her husband's choices? Mm-hmm. 137 00:08:06,150 --> 00:08:08,660 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you bring that up because that I 138 00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:12,740 Speaker 1: think is so normal and so typical. And sadly, more 139 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: wives than a few have been blamed by the husband, 140 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,580 Speaker 1: even by church leaders, you know, of, well, how often 141 00:08:22,620 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: have you been having sex with him? Or what have 142 00:08:25,060 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: you been like in the home? I mean, all these 143 00:08:26,940 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: kinds of things. And so that can be coming externally, 144 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,710 Speaker 1: but from within a wife, because of the painful sense 145 00:08:32,990 --> 00:08:37,230 Speaker 1: of rejection. that sexual betrayal is, of course, she's going 146 00:08:37,250 --> 00:08:39,530 Speaker 1: to feel like, well, what have I not done? How 147 00:08:39,570 --> 00:08:42,750 Speaker 1: have I not been enough for you? And so there's 148 00:08:42,790 --> 00:08:45,569 Speaker 1: a lot to go into with that. But from a 149 00:08:45,730 --> 00:08:48,670 Speaker 1: biblical point of view, scripture is pretty clear that we 150 00:08:48,790 --> 00:08:52,070 Speaker 1: sin out of our hearts. You see Jesus saying that 151 00:08:52,290 --> 00:08:56,510 Speaker 1: over and over in Luke 6, Mark, I think 7 152 00:08:56,510 --> 00:08:59,230 Speaker 1: it is, where Jesus is saying it's out of the 153 00:08:59,390 --> 00:09:05,410 Speaker 1: overflow of our hearts that come greed. sexual immorality, murder, 154 00:09:05,590 --> 00:09:07,750 Speaker 1: on and on. And so what I would say to 155 00:09:07,770 --> 00:09:11,690 Speaker 1: especially any wives or husbands that are listening today is 156 00:09:12,330 --> 00:09:17,449 Speaker 1: you cannot cause your spouse to sin. We're all responsible 157 00:09:17,510 --> 00:09:20,510 Speaker 1: for our own sinful choices. But I also want to 158 00:09:20,530 --> 00:09:23,340 Speaker 1: just follow that up quickly to say the sense of 159 00:09:23,429 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: feeling like it is your responsibility, it is pretty normal 160 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,700 Speaker 1: because of, again, the intimacy of the marriage relationship. But 161 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,620 Speaker 1: your husband's choices, your wife's choices, you did not cause 162 00:09:37,700 --> 00:09:40,780 Speaker 1: them or force them to go outside of your marriage 163 00:09:40,830 --> 00:09:42,490 Speaker 1: relationship sexually. 164 00:09:42,770 --> 00:09:45,290 Speaker 2: What have you discovered to be some of the common 165 00:09:45,350 --> 00:09:49,350 Speaker 2: responses to betrayal? And how can a woman bring those 166 00:09:49,410 --> 00:09:51,030 Speaker 2: honest emotions before God? 167 00:09:51,350 --> 00:09:57,650 Speaker 1: Paralyzing fear, rage, confusion, disorientation. I think another way I 168 00:09:57,670 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: would even name some of that is just essentialism. of 169 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,020 Speaker 1: feeling like you're going crazy. Sadly, sometimes wives are told, 170 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,580 Speaker 1: you're just being an emotional wife. Like, don't you know 171 00:10:06,620 --> 00:10:08,460 Speaker 1: that most men struggle with these things? I mean, these 172 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,849 Speaker 1: are just horrifically wrong things to say to a hurting woman. 173 00:10:12,610 --> 00:10:15,890 Speaker 1: So there's just a spiral of things that happen, like 174 00:10:15,990 --> 00:10:18,950 Speaker 1: the topsy-turvy of all the emotions that are spinning in 175 00:10:18,990 --> 00:10:22,849 Speaker 1: a wife. So, you know, in our workbook, Jesus and 176 00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:25,689 Speaker 1: Your Unwanted Journey, there's a whole chapter on this called 177 00:10:25,710 --> 00:10:29,150 Speaker 1: I'm a Hot Mess, Bringing Your Emotions to Jesus. And 178 00:10:29,230 --> 00:10:32,089 Speaker 1: so without being too simplistic, I'll offer kind of a 179 00:10:32,150 --> 00:10:35,220 Speaker 1: pathway is, I think, first of all, it's just kind 180 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,220 Speaker 1: of sitting with what you're feeling and acknowledging it, like 181 00:10:39,380 --> 00:10:43,590 Speaker 1: facing what you're feeling. And that might take some time. Again, 182 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:46,730 Speaker 1: when your sense of reality has been so profoundly altered, 183 00:10:46,910 --> 00:10:49,290 Speaker 1: you wouldn't expect someone to get a good grasp of 184 00:10:49,309 --> 00:10:53,070 Speaker 1: how they're feeling right away. But acknowledging it and then 185 00:10:53,630 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: naming it out honestly before God and again to yourself. 186 00:10:58,100 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: But then it's going to be a process of bringing 187 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,459 Speaker 1: those emotions to the Lord and praying through them. I 188 00:11:04,380 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: know we're going to talk about finding supportive community, but 189 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: doing this alongside a trustworthy friend or helper is just 190 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,410 Speaker 1: so important. I mean, the Lord is the primary one, 191 00:11:15,510 --> 00:11:20,150 Speaker 1: but it's acknowledging what you're feeling and having that freedom 192 00:11:20,220 --> 00:11:24,740 Speaker 1: to be uncensored and just lamenting it out, getting it out, 193 00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:27,940 Speaker 1: which is what we see in the Psalms. Anything we 194 00:11:27,980 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: need to say to the Lord, we can say and 195 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: express to him. But this is just a roller coaster 196 00:11:33,610 --> 00:11:37,210 Speaker 1: of emotions for a spouse. And each journey is going 197 00:11:37,230 --> 00:11:40,010 Speaker 1: to be unique to that person and their situation. 198 00:11:41,390 --> 00:11:46,050 Speaker 2: So on this roller coaster, I think many women, after 199 00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:50,220 Speaker 2: the disclosure of the unfaithfulness, a wife may feel pressured 200 00:11:50,260 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: to make immediate decisions about her marriage. So what do 201 00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:56,700 Speaker 2: you think her first priorities should be and what decisions 202 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,290 Speaker 2: can usually wait until she has received wise support? 203 00:12:01,850 --> 00:12:03,830 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely going to just do this 204 00:12:03,870 --> 00:12:07,790 Speaker 1: kind of in generalities because each situation really is unique, 205 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:11,230 Speaker 1: but For starters, I think the most immediate thing is 206 00:12:11,290 --> 00:12:13,930 Speaker 1: for that wife, and again, I'm just going to speak 207 00:12:13,950 --> 00:12:17,790 Speaker 1: primarily to wives, would be her own personal sense of 208 00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:24,100 Speaker 1: safety and getting her bearings. So often, especially when there's 209 00:12:24,140 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: been maybe a confession or a husband has been caught, 210 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: generally what happens is all the energy starts revolving around, 211 00:12:33,460 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: he needs to get the help he needs. If there's 212 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,350 Speaker 1: other people involved, it's How do we get on board 213 00:12:38,390 --> 00:12:41,290 Speaker 1: with what this husband needs? And I'm not saying that 214 00:12:41,330 --> 00:12:46,790 Speaker 1: that's not important, but the wife needs care herself. Like 215 00:12:47,010 --> 00:12:51,380 Speaker 1: she needs to know that her heart and well-being matter 216 00:12:51,540 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: in this. That's the first thing I'm going to talk 217 00:12:54,660 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: about with a wife when we're talking about next steps 218 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: for her is what does she need most of all? 219 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,450 Speaker 1: And so Again, a sense of personal safety. There could 220 00:13:03,470 --> 00:13:07,490 Speaker 1: be other things going on in the marriage dynamic. Safety, stabilization. 221 00:13:08,090 --> 00:13:09,770 Speaker 1: But then it is going to be kind of getting 222 00:13:09,830 --> 00:13:13,260 Speaker 1: her bearings. And that's going to include bringing in at 223 00:13:13,340 --> 00:13:17,219 Speaker 1: least another person or another couple or another leader to 224 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: help navigate this situation. And this is where having local 225 00:13:22,179 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: church involvement is just so vital because let's consider a 226 00:13:25,940 --> 00:13:28,180 Speaker 1: woman I know right now who's in the midst of this. 227 00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:32,790 Speaker 1: She has several children. they're a wide variety of ages 228 00:13:33,530 --> 00:13:36,630 Speaker 1: she can't just drop all of her other life responsibilities 229 00:13:36,750 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: even as her heart has been broken and so that's 230 00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: where local church family you know a select few because 231 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,510 Speaker 1: these are tender delicate issues coming around that wife but 232 00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:51,870 Speaker 1: my heart for her is going to be we're going 233 00:13:51,890 --> 00:13:55,630 Speaker 1: to focus on what she needs first of all to 234 00:13:55,929 --> 00:14:00,250 Speaker 1: even just take those next steps so Things like eating, sleeping, 235 00:14:00,490 --> 00:14:02,310 Speaker 1: what kind of care does she need for her kids? 236 00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: And then we're going to start moving out towards things 237 00:14:04,540 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: like counseling, getting church leaders involved. And there's so much 238 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,460 Speaker 1: we could say too about the differences if a husband 239 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:16,980 Speaker 1: is repentant or if he's not repentant. That's going to 240 00:14:17,020 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: lead to other types of long-term care and guidance that 241 00:14:19,970 --> 00:14:22,210 Speaker 1: she's going to need. But those would be some starting thoughts. 242 00:14:23,490 --> 00:14:25,729 Speaker 2: Well, that segues into my next question for you. So 243 00:14:25,770 --> 00:14:28,810 Speaker 2: let's talk about this idea of repentance. So how can 244 00:14:28,850 --> 00:14:32,670 Speaker 2: a wife discern whether her husband is demonstrating genuine repentance 245 00:14:32,770 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: rather than simply expressing regret, making promises, or trying to 246 00:14:36,860 --> 00:14:38,420 Speaker 2: avoid consequences? 247 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: Well, you know, we talked about a few minutes ago 248 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,420 Speaker 1: that our behaviors are born out of our heart, and 249 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,260 Speaker 1: we see that by the fruit of our lives. And 250 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:50,100 Speaker 1: this is true of all of us, Rachel. And I 251 00:14:50,140 --> 00:14:52,340 Speaker 1: would guess you would agree, as I think about this 252 00:14:52,380 --> 00:14:54,900 Speaker 1: with myself, is that there are things I say I 253 00:14:54,970 --> 00:14:58,990 Speaker 1: believe that actually my life says something different. And so 254 00:14:59,630 --> 00:15:02,190 Speaker 1: that bears out when we think about is a man 255 00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:05,550 Speaker 1: truly repentant is we're going to see that by the 256 00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:09,310 Speaker 1: fruit of his life, of his behaviors and the new 257 00:15:09,410 --> 00:15:12,610 Speaker 1: choices and decisions he's willing to make. Not so much 258 00:15:12,670 --> 00:15:15,450 Speaker 1: his words, although we want to listen to those words. 259 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,870 Speaker 1: but it's going to be what are the things that 260 00:15:17,950 --> 00:15:21,430 Speaker 1: he is willing to do. And so when wives have 261 00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:24,010 Speaker 1: asked me about this, there's a few things that come 262 00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:27,690 Speaker 1: to mind. One is repentance is going to be seen 263 00:15:28,690 --> 00:15:32,479 Speaker 1: taking steps that shows a, I'm going to do whatever 264 00:15:32,660 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: it takes attitude to walk away from this sin, which 265 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,580 Speaker 1: means that a husband is going to be willing to 266 00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:44,260 Speaker 1: make some pretty costly and inconvenient decisions. decisions maybe around 267 00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: technology maybe around even his work schedule maybe around his 268 00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:52,910 Speaker 1: involvement in different social scenarios and of course in the 269 00:15:52,970 --> 00:15:57,010 Speaker 1: home too but is this husband saying hey this is 270 00:15:57,150 --> 00:15:59,650 Speaker 1: serious i don't know the first thing about how to 271 00:15:59,670 --> 00:16:01,750 Speaker 1: really walk away from this but i'm willing to learn 272 00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:04,700 Speaker 1: i'm willing to start taking those steps i'm gonna make 273 00:16:04,740 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: the costly decision i'll get rid of my smartphone i'll 274 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,100 Speaker 1: have radical accountability and blocks put up on all my 275 00:16:11,140 --> 00:16:14,479 Speaker 1: technology But then the other area, and this again, this 276 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,670 Speaker 1: friend I've just been recently talking to, her husband just 277 00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:22,650 Speaker 1: is very resistant to talk to anybody else besides her. 278 00:16:24,010 --> 00:16:27,870 Speaker 1: Repentance means I'm going to humble myself and bring in 279 00:16:28,210 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: other people. In this situation, other brothers. And so that 280 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: would be the starting thing. Those good fruits will then 281 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:39,490 Speaker 1: begin to bear out in other good fruits. Again, I 282 00:16:39,510 --> 00:16:41,330 Speaker 1: just want to mention this is a key one. If 283 00:16:41,390 --> 00:16:44,930 Speaker 1: a husband is not willing to reach out to anybody 284 00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:49,530 Speaker 1: else for help, that's a red flag. Part of the conditions, 285 00:16:49,750 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: if you will, that keep someone stuck in these patterns 286 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:58,180 Speaker 1: of sin are pride and self-deceit. I've got this. I 287 00:16:58,220 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: can handle it. Repentance is going to say, I can't 288 00:17:02,420 --> 00:17:05,330 Speaker 1: do this on my own. And I need help even 289 00:17:05,390 --> 00:17:08,570 Speaker 1: knowing what's true about myself and how to walk forward. 290 00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:10,750 Speaker 1: So those would be some things that you'd want to 291 00:17:10,790 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: be looking for. Now, a wife might say, well, what 292 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: about Jesus? What about reading the Bible? Yes, absolutely. But 293 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: the reality is I've known lots of Christian husbands and 294 00:17:22,260 --> 00:17:25,609 Speaker 1: Christian women as well who have had kind of a 295 00:17:25,619 --> 00:17:30,030 Speaker 1: duplicitous life going on. And so, yes, you can't do 296 00:17:30,109 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: any of this without the power of Christ. But again, 297 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,830 Speaker 1: we want to look at not just words and maybe habitual, 298 00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:41,149 Speaker 1: even religious behaviors, but what is the real fruit of 299 00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:43,870 Speaker 1: their life that is starting to bear out that something 300 00:17:44,250 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: radically new. And Rachel, one other thing I want to 301 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: add about what repentance looks like would be a husband 302 00:17:51,980 --> 00:17:57,109 Speaker 1: getting to that place where he can humbly acknowledge the 303 00:17:57,270 --> 00:18:00,950 Speaker 1: pain that this has caused his wife and be willing 304 00:18:01,010 --> 00:18:06,750 Speaker 1: to engage a long, patient process of bearing up with 305 00:18:06,830 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: her in light of the impact of his sin on her. 306 00:18:11,020 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: Really beautiful story that I have about that is just 307 00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:16,100 Speaker 1: a husband and a wife who he had had a 308 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,220 Speaker 1: very broken, duplicitous life. It came into the light and 309 00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: they began walking a really beautiful road of restoration. And 310 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: she would often kind of get triggered by a fear 311 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,939 Speaker 1: of what's he doing or what's this? And his response 312 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,580 Speaker 1: became more and more that when she had that response, 313 00:18:33,780 --> 00:18:36,740 Speaker 1: he wasn't getting frustrated or angry. He would just turn 314 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,090 Speaker 1: to her and say, I'm so sorry. I know that 315 00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: my actions have caused this. So that is also an 316 00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:48,979 Speaker 1: aspect of repentance that is very much focused on the 317 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,980 Speaker 1: wife and her experience and relating to her and loving 318 00:18:53,060 --> 00:18:55,820 Speaker 1: her in the midst of her healing process. 319 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,570 Speaker 2: It just sounds like humility to me and not having 320 00:19:00,609 --> 00:19:04,630 Speaker 2: that arrogant, prideful attitude. Well, this is such an important 321 00:19:04,670 --> 00:19:06,889 Speaker 2: conversation and I can't wait to continue it, but we're 322 00:19:06,910 --> 00:19:08,570 Speaker 2: going to take another brief break to hear a word 323 00:19:08,609 --> 00:19:10,950 Speaker 2: from our sponsor. And when we come back, We will 324 00:19:10,990 --> 00:19:14,570 Speaker 2: discuss boundaries, support, and the hope Jesus offers in an 325 00:19:14,670 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 2: unwanted journey. Welcome back. I'm talking with Ellen Dykus about 326 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: hope in your heartbreak. So Ellen, what is the difference 327 00:19:24,859 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 2: between forgiveness, reconciliation, and restored trust? And why is it 328 00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: important that a wife not feel spiritually pressured to treat 329 00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:34,540 Speaker 2: those as the same thing? 330 00:19:35,530 --> 00:19:38,389 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you wanted to talk about this because 331 00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:44,430 Speaker 1: as you just said, Sometimes wives are pressured that, well, 332 00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:46,730 Speaker 1: if you love the Lord, then you have to forgive him. 333 00:19:47,310 --> 00:19:49,250 Speaker 1: If you've forgiven him, then you should be able to 334 00:19:49,310 --> 00:19:52,620 Speaker 1: trust him and on and on. And there are distinctions here. 335 00:19:52,660 --> 00:19:56,020 Speaker 1: There's overlap, but there are distinctions. And so I wanted 336 00:19:56,060 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 1: to just actually read what's in our Jesus and Your 337 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:03,109 Speaker 1: Unwanted Journey book about forgiveness. And I'm actually quoting another resource. 338 00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:07,050 Speaker 1: It's a devotional book called Forgiveness Reflecting God's Mercy. But 339 00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:11,940 Speaker 1: the author says, according to the Bible, Forgiveness is extending 340 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:18,219 Speaker 1: undeserved grace to wrongdoers, which includes absorbing their debts against us. 341 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,510 Speaker 1: And that author is Haley Satro. She's a counselor. So 342 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,530 Speaker 1: forgiveness is just that. It is extending undeserved mercy and 343 00:20:27,570 --> 00:20:30,990 Speaker 1: grace to someone who has sinned against you and you 344 00:20:31,070 --> 00:20:37,010 Speaker 1: are releasing them, literally forgiving the debt that they have 345 00:20:37,109 --> 00:20:41,130 Speaker 1: because of that wrong to you. We do that because 346 00:20:41,369 --> 00:20:44,389 Speaker 1: we've been offered the greatest forgiveness of all in Christ 347 00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:48,830 Speaker 1: for our own sin. Reconciliation, however, and I think there's 348 00:20:48,850 --> 00:20:52,610 Speaker 1: a lot of overlap between reconciliation and restored trust, but 349 00:20:53,290 --> 00:20:57,830 Speaker 1: reconciliation is a broken relationship healed and coming back together. 350 00:20:57,850 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: The brokenness there, the conflict there has been resolved and 351 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,109 Speaker 1: the relationship is ready, is moving forward again. Restoring trust, 352 00:21:08,140 --> 00:21:10,429 Speaker 1: I think, is definitely a part of that. But where 353 00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:14,310 Speaker 1: I would look at reconciliation is something that has happened 354 00:21:14,430 --> 00:21:17,709 Speaker 1: and is happening. You can say like our relationship has 355 00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: been reconciled. The conflict is over. Restored trust is the 356 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,139 Speaker 1: long game. It is a long process. And this is 357 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: so important for couples that are facing sexual betrayal because 358 00:21:30,859 --> 00:21:35,090 Speaker 1: that's A spouse can offer sincere forgiveness and they could 359 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,130 Speaker 1: come to a place where the brokenness in the relationship 360 00:21:38,770 --> 00:21:42,369 Speaker 1: has been reconciled. They are back together, working on a 361 00:21:42,430 --> 00:21:46,130 Speaker 1: new kind of relationship. And maybe the beginning of restored 362 00:21:46,210 --> 00:21:49,179 Speaker 1: trust is happening, but that is going to be an 363 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: ongoing process because how is trust built or how is 364 00:21:54,060 --> 00:22:00,580 Speaker 1: broken trust restored? By somebody being trustworthy. And in this case, 365 00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:05,330 Speaker 1: that generally is going to take time for a spouse 366 00:22:05,490 --> 00:22:08,950 Speaker 1: to trust their spouse, the one that was unfaithful, that 367 00:22:08,970 --> 00:22:11,430 Speaker 1: they really are going to be faithful to the marriage. 368 00:22:12,010 --> 00:22:14,409 Speaker 1: And I always tag on to that. Sometimes church leaders 369 00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:18,330 Speaker 1: will say, he's doing everything we want him to do. Like, 370 00:22:18,550 --> 00:22:22,670 Speaker 1: why can't you trust him? Remember, this isn't a transaction. 371 00:22:22,810 --> 00:22:25,740 Speaker 1: This is a oneness of life relationship. And it's not 372 00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:29,409 Speaker 1: just sexually, has she been hurt? but her own heart 373 00:22:29,550 --> 00:22:33,169 Speaker 1: and soul has been broken through this. So there's the 374 00:22:33,210 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: healing that comes from the Lord and the strength from 375 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,020 Speaker 1: the Lord that enables an ongoing process of not only 376 00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: the reconciliation, but for the trust to be restored as 377 00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:48,410 Speaker 1: that spouse is walking out their repentance, bearing the good 378 00:22:48,450 --> 00:22:51,580 Speaker 1: fruit of repentance, which leads to restore trust. 379 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: I'd like to expand on this idea of healing more. 380 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,860 Speaker 2: What role can wise boundaries play in healing? And how 381 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,180 Speaker 2: can a woman establish them without feeling as though she's 382 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 2: being unloving, unforgiving, or responsible for fixing her husband? 383 00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:09,739 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, boundaries is a life-giving concept for 384 00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: some people, and it's very offensive to others. Boundaries sometimes 385 00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:18,610 Speaker 1: are seen as just unloving and self-serving, and they can 386 00:23:18,619 --> 00:23:22,230 Speaker 1: be that. But in the context, I think, of wisdom, 387 00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:28,429 Speaker 1: boundaries are guarding what is good, holy, and true. And 388 00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:31,010 Speaker 1: that goes back to what we talked about. A wife 389 00:23:31,650 --> 00:23:35,149 Speaker 1: is a wise woman to be watching over her own heart, 390 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: her own safety, and her own well-being. And so that's 391 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,060 Speaker 1: where boundaries come in, or we might call them non-negotiables 392 00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: or commitments that are being made for the purpose of what? 393 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,780 Speaker 1: For the purpose of trust potentially to be restored, for 394 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,379 Speaker 1: the relationship to be moving towards reconciliation. But also, in 395 00:23:56,820 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: this situation, sometimes boundaries are for the sake of protecting 396 00:24:01,350 --> 00:24:04,790 Speaker 1: someone from their own selves, from their own sin and 397 00:24:04,810 --> 00:24:06,969 Speaker 1: their temptation. And so I'll bring up kind of a 398 00:24:06,990 --> 00:24:10,310 Speaker 1: hot topic in this, even a controversial one. Should a 399 00:24:10,350 --> 00:24:15,350 Speaker 1: couple re-engage sexually immediately after discovering, say, a husband has 400 00:24:15,390 --> 00:24:20,070 Speaker 1: been addicted to pornography or has had an affair, some 401 00:24:20,090 --> 00:24:23,899 Speaker 1: people will say, absolutely. I mean, if they're not having sex, 402 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,580 Speaker 1: they're just going to grow further and further apart and 403 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,139 Speaker 1: that husband's temptations may get stirred up again. That is 404 00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:36,190 Speaker 1: so wrong because that is essentially saying this wife's sexual 405 00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:41,210 Speaker 1: engagement with her husband, it's all about him. And that 406 00:24:41,270 --> 00:24:43,990 Speaker 1: is not what God has designed sex to be in marriage. 407 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: And so a wise boundary in that might be, that 408 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,580 Speaker 1: a wife says, I'm not ready to re-engage with you 409 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: sexually just now. I don't trust you. We have no 410 00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: emotional intimacy at this point. And so is the boundary 411 00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: in that area of life, is that going to be 412 00:25:00,330 --> 00:25:05,390 Speaker 1: indefinite for years and years? Probably not. I don't think 413 00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:08,929 Speaker 1: that would be wise. But is there a good reason 414 00:25:08,950 --> 00:25:11,369 Speaker 1: to have a season where that boundary for her is, 415 00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: until I see some of these fruits of repentance, I'm 416 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,100 Speaker 1: not able. to give myself, to share myself with you sexually. 417 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,180 Speaker 1: And again, there's different opinions about all that, but I'll 418 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,820 Speaker 1: kind of stand by what I'm saying on that. So yeah, boundaries, Rachel, 419 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: is a big topic, but that kind of gets us 420 00:25:27,580 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: started with thinking about why we would engage those. Again, 421 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,530 Speaker 1: it's for the sake of what's going to promote the 422 00:25:32,570 --> 00:25:35,530 Speaker 1: good of this marriage, the healing of the marriage, and 423 00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:39,730 Speaker 1: also to promote safety and wholeness for both spouses. 424 00:25:41,330 --> 00:25:45,070 Speaker 2: You mentioned at the beginning of the episode that sexual 425 00:25:45,109 --> 00:25:50,210 Speaker 2: betrayal often thrives in secrecy and isolation. So who do 426 00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:54,580 Speaker 2: you think should a hurting wife invite into her situation? 427 00:25:54,740 --> 00:25:57,580 Speaker 2: And what should she look for in a pastor, counselor 428 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: or trusted support person? Because not every person is a 429 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:02,350 Speaker 2: safe place. No. 430 00:26:02,590 --> 00:26:07,260 Speaker 1: Well, you know. If you're in a church where women 431 00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:10,740 Speaker 1: are demeaned or where you kind of get a vibe 432 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:17,110 Speaker 1: that a husband's sexual needs should be fulfilled at whatever cost, 433 00:26:17,330 --> 00:26:20,429 Speaker 1: I would really caution you about going to a leader 434 00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:25,190 Speaker 1: that may be teaching that kind of content. So... Again, 435 00:26:25,230 --> 00:26:27,350 Speaker 1: there's other things we could say would be unsafe. And 436 00:26:27,369 --> 00:26:29,810 Speaker 1: I kind of want to mention these would be that 437 00:26:29,850 --> 00:26:34,390 Speaker 1: kind of teaching where women's safety and flourishing and dignity 438 00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:38,169 Speaker 1: is not a consistent theme in the teaching of the leaders, 439 00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: both male and female. That would be a red flag. 440 00:26:41,340 --> 00:26:45,540 Speaker 1: Another red flag would be a situation with leaders that 441 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: you sense are kind of prone to gossip or are 442 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,650 Speaker 1: fix-it people. When there's a crisis in the church, they 443 00:26:52,670 --> 00:26:55,870 Speaker 1: want to get it done and get this thing cleaned up. No, 444 00:26:56,130 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: you want to look for someone, conversely, someone that you 445 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: sense upholds the beauty and the dignity and the care 446 00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: and advocacy for women and for those that are in 447 00:27:07,060 --> 00:27:10,460 Speaker 1: very hard situations. That's one. And that's the gospel. That's Christ. 448 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,570 Speaker 1: He's moving towards the people that are in suffering. That's one. 449 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: You want to look for someone that you sense is 450 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,419 Speaker 1: somewhat spiritually mature. Someone that has had their own experience 451 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,939 Speaker 1: with suffering could be a very different type of suffering. 452 00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: You know, as I mentioned, I've not suffered this. I've 453 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: had different types of suffering. But then someone also who 454 00:27:28,580 --> 00:27:33,179 Speaker 1: you sense is willing to listen and learn you, learn 455 00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:37,100 Speaker 1: your story and your heart and what you need in this. 456 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: So it could be a friend. You know, it could 457 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:41,939 Speaker 1: be just a faithful friend in your life. That could 458 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,369 Speaker 1: be your starting point. But those are the kinds of 459 00:27:44,410 --> 00:27:47,770 Speaker 1: things you want to look for. Spiritual maturity, someone that 460 00:27:47,850 --> 00:27:51,470 Speaker 1: is kind of upholding the dignity of women in God's eyes, 461 00:27:51,970 --> 00:27:54,190 Speaker 1: and also someone that seems to have a heart posture 462 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: of humble willingness to listen, listen, and learn what you 463 00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:02,820 Speaker 1: need and what your situation is, and then help you 464 00:28:02,859 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: take that next step. 465 00:28:04,859 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I'm so glad that your resources are 466 00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:11,740 Speaker 2: a way to that women can get support. And so 467 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: for the woman who does feel alone, ashamed, or uncertain 468 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 2: about the future of her marriage, how can Hope in 469 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 2: Your Heartbreak help her recognize that Jesus is actively present? 470 00:28:22,030 --> 00:28:25,290 Speaker 2: And what is one first step she can take today? 471 00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:29,830 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, as Rachel mentioned, Hope in Your Heartbreak is 472 00:28:29,970 --> 00:28:34,740 Speaker 1: a six session free video discipleship course. It's on our website. 473 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: You just have to kind of sign up. There's no 474 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,020 Speaker 1: charge for it, but we wrote it specifically for women 475 00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: that are kind of out there on their own and 476 00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:44,770 Speaker 1: they just don't know what to do to take that 477 00:28:44,830 --> 00:28:47,870 Speaker 1: first step. So a first step would be to engage 478 00:28:47,910 --> 00:28:52,670 Speaker 1: that video discipleship course. We wrote that with the hope 479 00:28:52,810 --> 00:28:56,670 Speaker 1: that women would be able to engage that material and 480 00:28:56,770 --> 00:29:03,230 Speaker 1: feel seen understood, companioned, even if through a screen and 481 00:29:03,270 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: kind of given some grounding wisdom for a path forward, 482 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,460 Speaker 1: those initial steps. So I would, that would be a 483 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:12,460 Speaker 1: step is check out our website, Hope in Your Heartbreak 484 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: and engage that course. And better yet, if you have 485 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: somebody like we just talked about, that's a trustworthy friend, 486 00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:22,290 Speaker 1: ask them to go through it with you. There's a 487 00:29:22,330 --> 00:29:26,030 Speaker 1: participant guide. There's reflection questions to help you absorb the 488 00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:29,210 Speaker 1: material and apply it. to your own situation. 489 00:29:30,030 --> 00:29:33,050 Speaker 2: And it's free right it's. 490 00:29:32,390 --> 00:29:36,500 Speaker 1: No charge we're thankful for generous donors and people that 491 00:29:36,620 --> 00:29:38,220 Speaker 1: believe in what we do that we can offer these 492 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,540 Speaker 1: resources at no fee. 493 00:29:39,460 --> 00:29:43,300 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, Ellen, tell us, is there a 494 00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: biblical concept of love that you think applies to this 495 00:29:46,620 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: topic today? 496 00:29:47,220 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I love that question. And I've been 497 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: in Luke recently, and it was just yesterday that I 498 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: was studying the story of the widow at Nain. I 499 00:29:59,150 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 1: think that's Luke 6, Luke 6 or 7. But it's 500 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: the story of an older woman. She's a widow and 501 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: her only son has died. And in this story, Jesus 502 00:30:12,460 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: sees this woman weeping, following the funeral procession, and he 503 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,989 Speaker 1: just moves toward her in her sadness and raises her 504 00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:27,540 Speaker 1: son back to life. And I think that's the principle 505 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: of love here for a wife or for a helper. 506 00:30:31,030 --> 00:30:35,690 Speaker 1: For the wife, Jesus sees you and he's moving towards 507 00:30:35,730 --> 00:30:38,990 Speaker 1: you in your sadness and heartbreak of what you're facing 508 00:30:39,030 --> 00:30:42,250 Speaker 1: in your marriage. For those of us as helpers who 509 00:30:42,430 --> 00:30:44,990 Speaker 1: may want to just stay on the sideline or we think, 510 00:30:45,070 --> 00:30:46,970 Speaker 1: I don't know what to say to a woman facing this, 511 00:30:47,570 --> 00:30:50,370 Speaker 1: we can follow in the loving path of our Savior 512 00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:55,330 Speaker 1: and move toward women in the heartbreak of this experience. 513 00:30:55,390 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: That's That's the way of Christ. And we're just we're 514 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: imitating our Savior, following his lead. 515 00:31:00,940 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm glad you're addressing that, because if a 516 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: woman listening has experienced sexual betrayal, you've given her tools today. 517 00:31:08,740 --> 00:31:11,050 Speaker 2: But I also feel like we've learned tools as friends 518 00:31:11,070 --> 00:31:15,030 Speaker 2: and family members to be supportive of somebody going through that. 519 00:31:15,170 --> 00:31:17,210 Speaker 2: I feel like today has been an encouragement and equipping 520 00:31:17,290 --> 00:31:19,770 Speaker 2: in both of those areas. And so thank you. Yeah. 521 00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:23,930 Speaker 2: Is there something that you think, beyond being present and 522 00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:27,250 Speaker 2: being a good listener and sharing these resources, how can 523 00:31:27,290 --> 00:31:31,950 Speaker 2: we come alongside someone and love them well through sexual material? 524 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, a couple of thoughts. Yeah, I think we've 525 00:31:35,020 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: talked about a lot of good things. I mean, I 526 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,140 Speaker 1: think what's key initially for your average person, if I 527 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,860 Speaker 1: can put it that way, a friend or, you know, 528 00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:46,740 Speaker 1: this is a woman in your church who kind of 529 00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:50,229 Speaker 1: catches you after Bible study and wants to talk. is 530 00:31:50,390 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: just being willing to be present, listen, but then to 531 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,340 Speaker 1: follow up. Like, you're texting her within a few days. 532 00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:02,740 Speaker 1: You're following up and meeting with her in another week. 533 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,430 Speaker 1: You're asking her, hey, you're being honest and saying, hey, listen, I... 534 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,940 Speaker 1: I care about you. I don't know all the things 535 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: that are going to be most helpful for you, but 536 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,180 Speaker 1: I'm willing to learn. I'm willing to help connect you 537 00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:17,460 Speaker 1: to others that may be able to help you more. 538 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,860 Speaker 1: But being present because it's devastation on top of devastation. 539 00:32:22,340 --> 00:32:25,460 Speaker 1: When somebody opens up to you about this and then 540 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,700 Speaker 1: everything goes silent, the church leaders get too busy. The 541 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: friend is uncomfortable and doesn't know what else to say 542 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,310 Speaker 1: and so doesn't follow up. It just, that is just 543 00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:39,830 Speaker 1: devastating because the wife is just left alone again. So 544 00:32:40,290 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: following up, being present, and to not dismiss what may 545 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,380 Speaker 1: seem as small things like texting encouragement, meeting to take 546 00:32:49,420 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: a walk and pray and listen, and connecting her to 547 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: helpful resources, whether if it's resources at Harvest USA or 548 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: a helpful counselor or a more mature believer that might 549 00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: be able to come alongside her in ways that you're 550 00:33:03,580 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: just not able to. 551 00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:09,380 Speaker 2: I love how you have mentioned God in a relationship 552 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,170 Speaker 2: with Him throughout the entirety of today's conversation and biblical examples. 553 00:33:14,390 --> 00:33:19,110 Speaker 2: And truly, there is no healing or ability to forgive 554 00:33:19,270 --> 00:33:22,350 Speaker 2: or reconcile or do anything that we've talked about, love 555 00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 2: unconditionally and sacrificially and experience all of this apart from 556 00:33:26,940 --> 00:33:29,780 Speaker 2: the Lord. So I think that's one of the keys 557 00:33:29,820 --> 00:33:32,500 Speaker 2: that I have heard today is you have to have 558 00:33:32,540 --> 00:33:35,580 Speaker 2: that relationship with the Lord and the impact of prayer, 559 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 2: us praying through it, and then also the impact of 560 00:33:38,620 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 2: people coming alongside us and interceding in prayer for us 561 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:43,700 Speaker 2: as well. Does that evoke any thought in you? 562 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I love that you brought that out. Our 563 00:33:46,140 --> 00:33:51,420 Speaker 1: Wives workbook is called Jesus and Your Unwanted Journey, Wives 564 00:33:51,540 --> 00:33:56,390 Speaker 1: Finding Comfort After Sexual Betrayal. And there's a purposefulness in 565 00:33:56,430 --> 00:34:00,030 Speaker 1: that title. It's Jesus and your journey. Like he hasn't 566 00:34:00,130 --> 00:34:03,830 Speaker 1: left you. He's not going to leave you. And there's 567 00:34:03,910 --> 00:34:07,090 Speaker 1: lots of books. There's lots of strategies. There's lots of 568 00:34:07,210 --> 00:34:12,490 Speaker 1: programs that can all provide helpful information and helpful guidance 569 00:34:12,780 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: in this whole process. But nothing can replace Christ himself 570 00:34:18,460 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: who has come to live within us. And so for 571 00:34:21,739 --> 00:34:25,770 Speaker 1: a hurting wife, If you know Jesus, if he has 572 00:34:25,830 --> 00:34:28,810 Speaker 1: come to make his home in you, you will never, 573 00:34:29,310 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: ever be alone. And so, yes, our lives orbit around 574 00:34:33,390 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: and in Christ. And oftentimes, really over the years, as 575 00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: women have come here, that's what they have appreciated. And 576 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,259 Speaker 1: that's what they have said has brought the strongest healing 577 00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:50,090 Speaker 1: is their Savior. And being reminded that like Jesus going 578 00:34:50,150 --> 00:34:53,090 Speaker 1: to that widow of Nain with a dead son and saying, 579 00:34:53,469 --> 00:34:54,510 Speaker 1: Don't cry anymore. 580 00:34:54,910 --> 00:34:55,149 Speaker 2: What? 581 00:34:55,850 --> 00:34:58,069 Speaker 1: But then he follows that up with his provision. He 582 00:34:58,170 --> 00:35:01,450 Speaker 1: raises that son to life. And similarly, he's going to 583 00:35:01,489 --> 00:35:03,750 Speaker 1: come to us. He's going to come to you, hurting wife. 584 00:35:04,370 --> 00:35:08,140 Speaker 1: And he's going to bring beauty from the ashes somehow, 585 00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: some way. And so, yeah, I could go on and 586 00:35:11,020 --> 00:35:16,660 Speaker 1: on about this. But yes, Jesus Christ is the heart healer, redeemer, 587 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,419 Speaker 1: and the one that brings the reconciliation that we all need. 588 00:35:21,219 --> 00:35:24,420 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, He is the help and the hope. Yes, 589 00:35:24,460 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 2: He's everything, everything. 590 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: Yes, yes. 591 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 2: Well, Ellen, tell us something you are loving right now. 592 00:35:30,540 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, I'm just coming off of actually 593 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,379 Speaker 1: a week of being at home a little bit because 594 00:35:34,420 --> 00:35:36,940 Speaker 1: of a cold. And I want to say that I 595 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: didn't like having a cold, but I loved having forced rest. 596 00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: Every single time I get sick, the Lord is just 597 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,650 Speaker 1: discipling me about be still, rest. You don't need to 598 00:35:49,710 --> 00:35:52,770 Speaker 1: be doing and doing. And so I've had just some 599 00:35:52,830 --> 00:36:02,190 Speaker 1: fresh discipleship myself from the Lord about, Ellen, slow down, rest, breathe. 600 00:36:03,450 --> 00:36:06,180 Speaker 2: Yes, I get in that. Yeah, it is good. I 601 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: get in this mode of I feel like I have 602 00:36:09,180 --> 00:36:12,219 Speaker 2: more value when I'm doing. And yes, we have lots 603 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,299 Speaker 2: of work to do as Christians while we're here on earth. 604 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,860 Speaker 2: But I also need that reminder that God loves us 605 00:36:17,940 --> 00:36:20,509 Speaker 2: just as we are when we don't do anything. And 606 00:36:20,590 --> 00:36:23,130 Speaker 2: so it sounds like that you got that sweet reminder 607 00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:25,509 Speaker 2: as well. And maybe somebody is needing to hear that too. 608 00:36:25,590 --> 00:36:28,830 Speaker 2: It's okay to rest today. Well, I know I want 609 00:36:28,850 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 2: to stay connected with you. And I'm sure listeners want to. 610 00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: Tell us how we can connect with you. Access Hope 611 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: in Your Heartbreak and learn more about the resources available 612 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 2: through Harvest USA. 613 00:36:38,739 --> 00:36:41,450 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you can check us out on social media. 614 00:36:41,739 --> 00:36:44,450 Speaker 1: You look for Harvest USA. We post a lot of 615 00:36:44,510 --> 00:36:47,549 Speaker 1: links to our resources there, especially our articles, which come 616 00:36:47,590 --> 00:36:50,750 Speaker 1: out every week. But our website is obviously our hub, 617 00:36:50,850 --> 00:36:56,540 Speaker 1: and that's just harvestusa.org. We've got hundreds and hundreds of articles. 618 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: We have lots of free stuff, hoping your heart breaks 619 00:36:59,420 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: on there. There's also other books. We do have a 620 00:37:03,020 --> 00:37:05,779 Speaker 1: book that just came out called Sexual Wholeness for Women, 621 00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:09,810 Speaker 1: Transformation from the Inside Out. That's actually for women, single 622 00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:12,549 Speaker 1: or married, that are dealing with their own sexual sin. 623 00:37:12,770 --> 00:37:17,110 Speaker 1: We're excited in summer 2027 to have a pretty comprehensive 624 00:37:17,290 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: church leader video equipping resource. It's going to train people 625 00:37:21,540 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: in ministry in all these areas we've been talking about. 626 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,660 Speaker 1: By God's grace, that will also be a free resource. 627 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,940 Speaker 1: for the public. And so check us out at our website. 628 00:37:29,980 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: That really is the hub of all of our content, harvestusa.org. 629 00:37:36,260 --> 00:37:38,750 Speaker 2: We will include that in the show notes. It's such 630 00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:41,830 Speaker 2: a beautiful ministry and you are doing such great work. 631 00:37:41,950 --> 00:37:44,549 Speaker 2: But as we come to a close today, would you 632 00:37:44,590 --> 00:37:47,850 Speaker 2: do us the honor of praying over each person listening? 633 00:37:48,150 --> 00:37:50,740 Speaker 1: Yeah. I would love that. Father, we are so grateful 634 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,700 Speaker 1: for Jesus Christ. Thank you, Lord, Father, Son, and Spirit 635 00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:58,980 Speaker 1: for coming to us in our pain and bringing restoration, 636 00:37:59,180 --> 00:38:02,020 Speaker 1: coming to us in our sin and bringing salvation. And 637 00:38:02,700 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: Lord Jesus, I just pray specifically for women who are 638 00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: listening to this and they're realizing this is me. Jesus, 639 00:38:10,260 --> 00:38:14,049 Speaker 1: would you overwhelm them by moving towards them as you 640 00:38:14,090 --> 00:38:17,069 Speaker 1: move toward that widow at name, moving towards them in 641 00:38:17,110 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: their hopelessness and really even what may feel like destitution 642 00:38:21,390 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: and just bringing restoration and bringing hope. Thank you, Lord, 643 00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:28,620 Speaker 1: for Rachel. I just pray that this podcast episode would 644 00:38:28,660 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 1: bear beautiful fruit for ministry and care and comfort for 645 00:38:33,420 --> 00:38:36,660 Speaker 1: hurting women in particular. In Jesus' name, amen. 646 00:38:38,180 --> 00:38:40,940 Speaker 2: Amen. Ellen, thank you for your time today and just 647 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,100 Speaker 2: for all of your wisdom and the hope in our heartbreak. 648 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,700 Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Yep. Thankful for our conversation. 649 00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:49,169 Speaker 2: And thank you so much for listening to the Love 650 00:38:49,230 --> 00:38:52,090 Speaker 2: Offering Podcast. I hope today's conversation reminded you that if 651 00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:55,129 Speaker 2: you have experienced sexual betrayal, you did not cause another 652 00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:58,030 Speaker 2: person's sinful choices, and you do not have to carry 653 00:38:58,070 --> 00:39:02,410 Speaker 2: their consequences alone. Your grief matters, your questions are welcome, 654 00:39:02,510 --> 00:39:05,890 Speaker 2: and you are worthy of compassionate, wise, and trustworthy support. 655 00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 2: Healing is rarely quick or straightforward, and you do not 656 00:39:09,390 --> 00:39:12,090 Speaker 2: have to determine the entire future of your marriage today. 657 00:39:12,570 --> 00:39:15,030 Speaker 2: You can take one faithful step at a time, trusting 658 00:39:15,070 --> 00:39:17,950 Speaker 2: that Jesus is present in your heartbreak. He will meet 659 00:39:17,989 --> 00:39:21,130 Speaker 2: you with mercy, anchor you in truth, and guide you 660 00:39:21,170 --> 00:39:23,770 Speaker 2: toward the help and healing you need. If you are 661 00:39:23,870 --> 00:39:27,090 Speaker 2: in danger or fear for your safety, please contact emergency 662 00:39:27,150 --> 00:39:29,870 Speaker 2: services or a trusted local professional who can help you 663 00:39:29,890 --> 00:39:34,790 Speaker 2: make a safety plan if you enjoyed this episode please 664 00:39:34,810 --> 00:39:37,509 Speaker 2: share it with someone who may need this encouragement and 665 00:39:37,550 --> 00:39:40,009 Speaker 2: leave a review it helps others find the show and 666 00:39:40,050 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 2: spreads the message of love even further To connect with me, 667 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 2: visit me on my website at rachelkadams.com where you can 668 00:39:46,739 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 2: download the Love Always devotional, a free resource to help 669 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,020 Speaker 2: you realize how beloved you already are. You can watch 670 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,219 Speaker 2: Hope in Your Heartbreak, First Steps for Sexually Betrayed Wives 671 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:01,430 Speaker 2: for free at harvestusa.org slash hope and learn more about 672 00:40:01,510 --> 00:40:05,390 Speaker 2: Ellen's book, Jesus and Your Unwanted Journey through Harvest USA. 673 00:40:05,410 --> 00:40:08,650 Speaker 2: A special thank you to Life Audio for supporting this 674 00:40:08,730 --> 00:40:11,910 Speaker 2: podcast and making it possible for To find more great podcasts, 675 00:40:11,950 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 2: visit lifeaudio.com. Until next time, let's make our lives an 676 00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:17,710 Speaker 2: offering of love.