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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 2: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 2: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 2: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 1: But it's also a place of hope and healing.

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Speaker 2: I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became

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Speaker 2: an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today I've found

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Speaker 2: sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety,

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Speaker 2: I found Jesus. My prayer is that as I interview

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Speaker 2: people just like you and just like me, along with

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Speaker 2: professionals in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery,

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Speaker 2: you will find the piece that is available to you

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Speaker 2: through Christ on the other side of whatever you're going

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Speaker 2: through and whatever addiction that might be. Because let's face it,

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Speaker 2: we're all addicted to something so welcome, let's get radically

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Speaker 2: vulnerable as we explore what it looks like to be

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Speaker 2: on this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll be right back

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Speaker 2: after this.

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Speaker 1: Are you in an abusive relationship?

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Speaker 2: I don't say that just for shock value. But our

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Speaker 2: guest today was wasn't quite the type that you might think.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't with another human, but it was with alcohol.

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Speaker 2: And she wrote a post last year that I found

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Speaker 2: so moving, and it was about being an abusive relationship

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Speaker 2: with alcohol and finally giving it up. And I think

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Speaker 2: the metaphor is a good one, you know, and I

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Speaker 2: talk a little bit about this in my book, that

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Speaker 2: we like alcohol is one of those things that promises

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Speaker 2: us so much and just doesn't deliver, right. And if

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Speaker 2: you again think about that metaphor, and again that's not

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Speaker 2: to minimize anyone who's been in an abusive physical relationship.

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Speaker 1: I've a sister who was and it was awful.

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Speaker 2: But I think when you look at alcohol something that

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Speaker 2: just takes and takes and takes and lies and lies

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Speaker 2: and lies and literally does do physical harm to our

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Speaker 2: bodies while promising us something better, I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: the metaphor fits. And so Heidi Mills knows exactly what

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Speaker 2: that is like. And so I found her viatack and

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Speaker 2: she had written this this really great post probably I

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Speaker 2: think around March or April of twenty twenty five, and

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Speaker 2: it was called the Glass half empty, leaving my most

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Speaker 2: abusive relationship a non dramatic breakup with alcohol, which is

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Speaker 2: interesting because I think she didn't necessarily have a rock

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Speaker 2: bottom moment, although there was this up and down relationship

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Speaker 2: with alcohol throughout her life. And so in this nearly

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Speaker 2: four thousand word post, which I've linked in the show

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Speaker 2: notes and I'm going to read parts of it during

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Speaker 2: the interview as well, I think she details and chronicles

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Speaker 2: what it was like to go through this relationship and

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Speaker 2: then just finally realize I'm done, like I don't need this,

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Speaker 2: and I'm excited for you to hear her story today.

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Speaker 2: Heidi is a certified relationship and life coach. She has

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Speaker 2: a business, you know, centered around soul care coaching called Reclaim,

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Speaker 2: and she works especially with middle aged women on what

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Speaker 2: it looks like to reclaim their lives. And so I'm

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Speaker 2: excited to talk to her today and to bring you

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Speaker 2: her story because I think a lot of you will

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Speaker 2: be able to relate, and especially I think those of

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Speaker 2: you who like me for so long, just had this

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Speaker 2: kind of yo yo back and forth and back and

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Speaker 2: forth and back and forth, and so to hear what

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Speaker 2: that kind of that kind of to hear, hew, do

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Speaker 2: you talk about how like for so long she just

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Speaker 2: quieted the whispers, Like there was this ongoing whisper in

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Speaker 2: the back of her head that was like, just give

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Speaker 2: this up, just move on, you don't need this, and

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Speaker 2: she just would work to quiet that. There's talks of

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Speaker 2: relationship trauma in this episode. She talks about an emotional

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Speaker 2: affair that she had to walk through recording her husband.

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Speaker 2: And finally, I think you'll hear in Heidi's story how

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Speaker 2: the drinking culture has permeated the church more than we realized, right,

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Speaker 2: And that was a reality for me, and I think

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Speaker 2: a reality for a lot of you that you know,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to drinking in the church, so many

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Speaker 2: people kind of swung the pendulum.

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Speaker 1: And so Heidi will talk about.

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Speaker 2: How she was in a she was part of a

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Speaker 2: ministry that said, hey, you can drink as long as

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Speaker 2: you don't tell anyone about it, right, And and then

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Speaker 2: you know, moving to Texas, where you know beer and

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Speaker 2: barbecue was just interchangeable.

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Speaker 1: And so I think it's a reminder a.

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Speaker 2: Little bit of how we need to reframe some of

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Speaker 2: that conversation in the church today. First, if you are

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Speaker 2: looking for some resources for your own recovery. Why don't

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Speaker 2: you head on over to Veritasrecovery dot org. Veritasrecovery dot org.

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Speaker 2: That is the new nonprofit ministry that I have started.

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Speaker 2: And in the resources section there is a download that

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Speaker 2: includes a slew of books and places in other podcasts

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Speaker 2: that you can listen to, and I would be it's free.

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Speaker 2: It's free, and so I'd be honored if you took

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Speaker 2: advantage of that. This is the ministry that I've started

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Speaker 2: to help Christians, especially, but not exclusively, fight against doing

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Speaker 2: what they don't want to do. Check it out Veritas

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Speaker 2: recovery dot org. So with that said, let's talk to Heidimails. Well, Heidi,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a

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Speaker 2: Christian Alcoholic podcast. I am excited to have you here.

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Speaker 2: I just continue to be amazed at how God brings

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Speaker 2: people like you across my path and and so I'm

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Speaker 2: honored that you would share your story with me and

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Speaker 2: and with this audience.

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Speaker 1: So thank you so much for being here.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad to be here, thank you for having me, and.

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Speaker 1: So I honestly, you know you're one of the guests

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Speaker 1: that I.

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Speaker 2: Want to focus on your story and I kind of

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Speaker 2: joke that, like, we'll chase rabbits where rabbits want to

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Speaker 2: be chased, and we'll kind of go where the.

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Speaker 1: Lord leads us.

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Speaker 2: But I would just like to open it up because

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Speaker 2: you have this really long.

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Speaker 1: Really detailed subject post, which.

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Speaker 2: We will link in the show notes in the description,

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Speaker 2: but for those who haven't read that, I'd love for

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Speaker 2: you to just walk us through your journey with realizing, Hey,

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Speaker 2: I have a relationship with alcohol that I need to change.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of hard to know where to start,

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Speaker 3: but that article was my my coming out, so to speak,

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Speaker 3: like coming out publicly. I don't I don't think I

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Speaker 3: had really even told my friends, hey, I'm done with this.

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Speaker 3: Obviously my husband knew because he'd been walking alongside me.

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Speaker 3: But that article was me reflecting on my relationship with

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Speaker 3: alcohol and the idea that I had in my mind

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Speaker 3: that I think a lot of us feel this way,

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Speaker 3: that we need to hit rock bottom to make a change,

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Speaker 3: that it needs to be bad enough, and I really

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Speaker 3: couldn't see that in my story, and so I just

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Speaker 3: kept giving alcohol the benefit of the doubt, much like

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Speaker 3: much like I've done before with toxic friends, and so

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Speaker 3: That's how I kind of equated it in the alcohol

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Speaker 3: in the article is that this was a toxic friend

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Speaker 3: that I let stay in my life for a way

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Speaker 3: too long. But alcohol came into my life when I

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Speaker 3: was a teenager and it was very I was very

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Speaker 3: irresponsible and pretty normal like teenage age drinking. You know,

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Speaker 3: we drank to get drunk. That was the goal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't really have many other goals.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not enjoying a good glass of wine. So

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Speaker 3: you know, I lived in a small tech It's not

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Speaker 3: super small, but a small Texas town. We're like that

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Speaker 3: was pretty much what we did in high school. And

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Speaker 3: I took it so far that I ended up. I

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Speaker 3: ended up at a ranch, a Mormon run ranch in

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Speaker 3: Utah where they put us through the twelve steps. But

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Speaker 3: it wasn't a choice. And I think the only good

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Speaker 3: thing I got out of that was is it step

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Speaker 3: number two? Where you are you know, like, oh, there's

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Speaker 3: a higher power and I'm yeah, So that's pretty much

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Speaker 3: the only thing I took out of that experience.

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Speaker 2: So interesting though, I'm curious, so everyone around you was

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Speaker 2: noticing it as well back then?

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Speaker 3: Well? No, just my parents, Okay, it was it was

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Speaker 3: not just alcohol, so there were drugs as well, and

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Speaker 3: this was pretty normal in the sphere that I was in.

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Speaker 3: But I think my parents were like, this is you know,

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Speaker 3: this is a problem. So I went and lived on

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Speaker 3: this ranch and they forced us through the twelve steps

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Speaker 3: and I came home not an ounce changed on the inside.

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Speaker 3: I played the game really well. I made it through

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Speaker 3: the rest of my high school and then moved out

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Speaker 3: of the house and kind of went full war into

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Speaker 3: all of that again until I got pregnant at nineteen

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Speaker 3: and that was a very clear stopping point for me.

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Speaker 3: And then after my son was born is when I

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Speaker 3: recommitted my life to Jesus. And that was a very

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Speaker 3: transformational experience, Like it was not just a I said

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Speaker 3: a prayer and something was different, Like I felt completely different,

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Speaker 3: and that was it. I was thinking cool. I just

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Speaker 3: was set free, healed, and delivered, and that's not a

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Speaker 3: problem for me anymore. I in my twenties, I met

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Speaker 3: my husband, we got married. We were part of a

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Speaker 3: ministry that said it was okay to drink as long

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Speaker 3: as it wasn't public, but we didn't really drink very much.

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Speaker 3: In our twenties. I was pregnant and nursing for ten years,

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Speaker 3: so that was just kind of not part of my life,

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Speaker 3: you know, right. And then somehow in my thirties we

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Speaker 3: end up back in Texas and alcohols everywhere that it

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter if you're with the church or not with

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Speaker 3: the churches at every function, barbecue, and it just kind

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Speaker 3: of creeped back into my life as a pretty normal,

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Speaker 3: the normal part of socializing. And I was coming with

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Speaker 3: this idea of, well, I can be responsible with it now,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: So had you when you got back from the twelve

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Speaker 2: step program the ranch, had you said said Okay, I'm

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Speaker 2: not I'm not going to drink again.

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Speaker 3: Not at all? Okay? Well it was a very forced

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Speaker 3: experience and so.

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Speaker 1: Mean when you said not.

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Speaker 2: When you say not about meaning you made the commitment

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Speaker 2: that you wan't at all or not.

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Speaker 3: I didn't make the commitments that I wouldn't, No, gotcha.

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Speaker 3: I just I played the game. I went through the

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Speaker 3: thing that I had to go through. I finished the program.

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Speaker 3: There was no transformational change internally because I hadn't chosen it, right, yeah, right,

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Speaker 3: So like you just can't make people do something which.

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Speaker 2: Which we can pause there for a second. I think

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Speaker 2: is really important. I mean, I think, you know, as

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Speaker 2: people are listening to this, you know, I think one

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Speaker 2: of them. I have a lot of prayers for you

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Speaker 2: if you listening to this, but one of my prayers

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Speaker 2: is that it would be it would be something that

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Speaker 2: is really done from the inside out, not from the

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Speaker 2: outside in. And because you know, and and I've told

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Speaker 2: this story before, but my wife, you know, my wife

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Speaker 2: could have in a sense forced me into a treatment

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Speaker 2: program or whatnot, but she made the conscious decision that

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Speaker 2: she's like, I'm not going to do that, like, and

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Speaker 2: she chose the harder life in the immediate because she

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Speaker 2: knew that that if and when that that change happened

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Speaker 2: from the inside out, then it was going to be lasting. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so I think that's important for people to hear.

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Speaker 2: And I think your story already echoes echoes some of that.

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Speaker 2: I had a sister who went to a to a

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Speaker 2: Christian you know, teen challenge program in Louisiana. We're living

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Speaker 2: in Wisconsin. She was drugs and knuck all and sex

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Speaker 2: and just everything right. And ironically, just like you, she

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Speaker 2: comes back within months she's pregnant, and it's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: just just back to.

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Speaker 1: That to everything.

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Speaker 3: So mean, yeah, and you and I both know, like

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Speaker 3: the alcohol isn't the thing, the drugs are not the thing.

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Speaker 3: And so when you're just when you're just behavior modification

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Speaker 3: changing the substance and your your relationship to it without

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Speaker 3: doing the deeper work, it just doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can change the environment and things will look great,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like in that environment where

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Speaker 2: you're on a ranch or you're in a in a

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Speaker 2: program and stuff like, and you're not dealing with the

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Speaker 2: with the crap of life like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go exactly. Okay, so you're

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Speaker 1: in your thirties.

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Speaker 3: So in my thirties, it just when you say it.

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Speaker 1: Started creeping back in, by the way, like what did that? What?

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Speaker 1: What did that define creeping back in?

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Speaker 3: I wish I could tell you. I really don't have

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Speaker 3: very clear. It wasn't a defining moment because again I

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Speaker 3: didn't have in my mind like you can never touch

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Speaker 3: this again, I didn't have that. I had a Yeah,

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Speaker 3: whatever was going on with you when you were young

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Speaker 3: was fixed shahba daba that away, and h you know

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Speaker 3: now now as an adult, you can be responsible if

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Speaker 3: I am consistent in my ability to think that I'm

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Speaker 3: above things like that's just all throughout my story. Whenever

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Speaker 3: I'm writing it, I'm like, oh, yeah, I thought that

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Speaker 3: wasn't going to touch me. Yeah, so yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't really know. It just it just was a

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Speaker 3: part of the culture. You know, we just we live

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Speaker 3: in wine country, so it's it was everywhere. It was

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Speaker 3: very social, it wasn't It's not like I was like

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Speaker 3: drinking bottles of wine. You know. I'd be out with

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Speaker 3: friends and have a glass or two. And then like

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Speaker 3: in my late thirties, this uptick happened and that was

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Speaker 3: almost imperceivable to where it was occasional to all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden, it was nightly and there was this transition

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Speaker 3: that I now needed to wind down from my day

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Speaker 3: and have a glass of wine. And you create this

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Speaker 3: habit and your brain relies on it. So I was

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Speaker 3: in a really stressful job and that was my way

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Speaker 3: of coping with the stress, which I thought it was

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Speaker 3: going to help with the stress. Yeah, that uptick continued

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Speaker 3: for a couple of years. But in the article, I

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Speaker 3: also mentioned that there were other things going on that

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Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of at the time, and this is

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Speaker 3: very public, like my husband and I talk about this

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Speaker 3: on our podcast in other places, but he was involved

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Speaker 3: in an emotional affair, and so my nervous system was

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Speaker 3: picking up on the incongruencies, which was very uncomfortable. And

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Speaker 3: the way that I would silence that was just have

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Speaker 3: a drink. Absolutely, Yeah, So that optic was I mean,

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Speaker 3: I really haven't gotten honest enough to like super dig

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Speaker 3: into how much was going on, but I mean there

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Speaker 3: was like one or two glass of wine on a

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Speaker 3: regular basis.

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Speaker 2: And which I think and by the way, like you know,

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Speaker 2: for people that are listening, you know what I want

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Speaker 2: you to hear, there is the is the it's not

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Speaker 2: about the amount, right in that some people may listen

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Speaker 2: to this and they one or two glasses a night. God,

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Speaker 2: I'd kill for I'd kill to go down to one

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Speaker 2: or two glasses a night, right. And two things that

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Speaker 2: are important. A our bodies are all different, right, So

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Speaker 2: you're one or two glasses maybe three to four to

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Speaker 2: someone else, right, And And two I would say the

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Speaker 2: comparison game keeps us so trapped. And three it's it's

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Speaker 2: about the place it occupies in our lives. And so

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Speaker 2: if it's I don't care if it's wine, I don't care.

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Speaker 2: If it's oreos, I don't care if it's porn. Right,

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Speaker 2: if you need that little that thing in order to

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Speaker 2: get through X or to stop, why that's a problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I love that you're saying that.

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Speaker 2: It's like it got to the point and I interviewed

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Speaker 2: someone in my book who said the same thing. She's like,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't getting wasted every night. Yeah, and so I

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Speaker 2: think to the world, quote unquote, you know, it's like,

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Speaker 2: you're not getting wasted, Like, what's what are you talking about?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the problem. And the thing that you said

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Speaker 3: about comparison is we can do this everywhere in our lives.

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Speaker 3: You look around and you can always find somebody who's

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Speaker 3: doing it worse. You know.

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Speaker 2: I like to say there's only one worst alcoholic in

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Speaker 2: the world, and like the race for numbers two through

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Speaker 2: twenty five is like not a race you want.

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Speaker 3: To be in. Yeah, so you can always look around

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Speaker 3: and see somebody who really has a problem and kind

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Speaker 3: of make yourself feel better about why you don't have

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Speaker 3: a problem. But I think for me it wasn't yet,

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Speaker 3: that didn't happen yet, but there which just became like this,

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Speaker 3: the internal nudge of this is out of alignment for you. Yes,

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Speaker 3: and it you know, there are definitely stories and times

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Speaker 3: where I had way too much to drink, like that's

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Speaker 3: that's in there too. It just wasn't wasn't a regular occurrence.

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Speaker 3: And all of this was very socially acceptable. None, none

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Speaker 3: of my drinking was not outside of the norm at all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And this is meanwhile being very involved in church.

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Speaker 2: Right, And so I think, so you start like, what

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Speaker 2: was in a sense your conscience telling you? What was

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Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit starting to whisper to you in this period?

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Speaker 3: I wish I would have listened to any whispers in

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Speaker 3: that period. I didn't. So what happened was in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 3: the infidelity in my marriage blew up. It got exposed,

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Speaker 3: It blew up in the whole community. It was a

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Speaker 3: b a big deal. And my physical body was feeling

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Speaker 3: the stress of the previous years and then the trauma

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Speaker 3: of that. And so I go to a doctor because

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Speaker 3: basically I'm driving down the street and my GPS tells

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Speaker 3: me to turn left and I can't remember what direction

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Speaker 3: left is. That's and I think I'm having a stroke,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm like I don't know what's happening. So

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Speaker 3: I go to the doctor and she's like, you're really stressed,

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Speaker 3: You're a dreamals are not working. And so I had

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Speaker 3: to do a pretty intense healing regimen and alcohol just

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Speaker 3: was not on the list of approved items. So it

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Speaker 3: was I didn't listen to a whisper. I waited until

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Speaker 3: everything totally fell apart, blew up, crashed and burned. And

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Speaker 3: the doctor said, in no way, shape or form do

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Speaker 3: you get to have any alcohol for a year?

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Speaker 1: Interesting, And so.

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Speaker 3: The physical symptoms were bad enough that I was able

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Speaker 3: to hear that, even though it sounded really hard. Or

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Speaker 3: that point, I think I'd done a whole thirty you know, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and just waited for the thirty days to like it,

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Speaker 3: have a glass of wine, and I'd always feel better

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Speaker 3: without it and my skin would look better, and then

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Speaker 3: write it when the thirty days was up there I'd

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Speaker 3: go back to having a glass of wine. So, thinking

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Speaker 3: about a year without it and how intertwined it was

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Speaker 3: with my relationships, I was, you know that that seemed

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Speaker 3: really daunting, but it was a non negotiable. There was

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Speaker 3: so much healing that had to happen, so.

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Speaker 2: Unpack that a little bit. I think people listening to this,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think there's there's a variety, there's a

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Speaker 2: variety of reasons you may take a break from alcohol,

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Speaker 2: and I think a popular one nowadays is health right,

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Speaker 2: and so I don't I don't disparage that, although I

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Speaker 2: think I go back to what you said, is I mean,

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Speaker 2: use that if you want, If you need to use

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Speaker 2: that to kick it off, great, but then make sure

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Speaker 2: you do the work underneath. But explain, at least in

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Speaker 2: your understanding. Okay, you're in since having a nervous breakdown.

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Speaker 2: Why why is it bad to have alcohol while you're

365
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Speaker 2: trying to heal?

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Speaker 1: Like, what's your understanding there? We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not a doctor, so I don't have the

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Speaker 3: best understanding. But what was happening in my body was basically,

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Speaker 3: my adrenals had been overfiring for so long that they'd

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Speaker 3: completely shut down. My cortisol had been overfiring for so

371
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Speaker 3: long it was tanked, so I had had like zero cortisol.

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Speaker 3: My adrenals weren't firing. When that happens, your adrenals need

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Speaker 3: to keep working. So what they do is they strip

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Speaker 3: from other parts of your body, so they'll strip your

375
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Speaker 3: gut lining and strip your daha, and it basically causes

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Speaker 3: this whole host of symptoms that is just miserable, and

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Speaker 3: a lot of it is regulated in the liver, and

378
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Speaker 3: so you don't want to be taxing the liver with alcohol.

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Speaker 3: And also you so alcohol, you know, strips the gut

380
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Speaker 3: lining as well. So it was just kind of like,

381
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Speaker 3: there's no room for this right now. You need to

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Speaker 3: rebuild your body and that is the opposite. But even still,

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Speaker 3: even hearing that, I wasn't like, Okay, this has gone forever.

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Speaker 3: It was like, okay, one year, I can do that,

385
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Speaker 3: right Yeah. And meanwhile too, yeah, So meanwhile, like a year,

386
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Speaker 3: a year, year and a half of that time period,

387
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Speaker 3: I'm going through deep deep healing, like doing trauma work

388
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Speaker 3: and all of that. My husband and I are doing

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Speaker 3: a recovery work. It's very, very difficult. So there's all

390
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Speaker 3: of the digging, deep happening going into my childhood and

391
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Speaker 3: all the stuff, all the things you know, been there. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was gutting. It was a gutting experience that I'm

393
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Speaker 3: so grateful for. And I would say I'm a completely

394
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Speaker 3: different human now after that, And so a year, year

395
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 3: and a half goes by, we're kind of moving to

396
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 3: a place of peace and stability in our relationship. I'm

397
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 3: feeling better physically, so I'm like, Okay, social drinking can

398
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Speaker 3: come back. Yeah. So then between twenty twenty two and

399
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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, I returned to drinking socially. Now that

400
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 3: whole time that I was taking a break and I'm

401
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 3: doing all this deep work, I mean, there's no way

402
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 3: to ignore the things that you were turning to. So

403
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 3: I had to completely rewire my nervous system, and I

404
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 3: had to understand what I was doing before to try

405
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Speaker 3: to regulate my nervous system. And so I was aware

406
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Speaker 3: that I'd been using alcohol to do that. I'd been

407
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 3: using alcohol to help me in social situations, you know,

408
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: to kind of help me loosen up or whatever we

409
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 3: think it does. I had a bunch of stories, A

410
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 3: bunch of stories is built around what I thought it

411
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Speaker 3: did for me, And so it's just shocking to me

412
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Speaker 3: to be sitting here and walking through the story and going,

413
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Speaker 3: why did I ever go back? You know?

414
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Speaker 2: That's and I think it's this really good point. And

415
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Speaker 2: there's a section even in in in my book where

416
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Speaker 2: I talk a little bit about this from a spiritual perspective, right,

417
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Speaker 2: And I think part of there is this weird thing,

418
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Speaker 2: and it is when I say this weird thing, like

419
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 2: it is a known thing, right, it's this cognitive dissonance.

420
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Speaker 1: Yeah, where where we can know something.

421
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: We can believe something, and we cannot do something right

422
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Speaker 2: and and and yet like tale is old as time, right,

423
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Speaker 2: I mean I think that's what Paul's Yeah, that's what

424
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Speaker 2: Paul's calling out right, And they didn't call it cognitive

425
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Speaker 2: dissonance then, but but but like it is, so you

426
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 2: can you can do that, and you can do the work,

427
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: you can go to trauma therapy, you can do all

428
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: this stuff and know, hey, I was using this thing

429
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: to cope. And yet then you'll eventually get to a

430
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: place where you say I can control this.

431
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: I can control it now. And I think that's where

432
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Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, well.

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Speaker 1: Now now I know.

434
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 3: Now I know, and I'll just do it differently and

435
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 3: I can moderate this and I won't be using it

436
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: for that reason. It won't be like a coping It's

437
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: just going to be an addition to my life for

438
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: enhance social situations or whatever the whatever. The story is

439
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 3: you know, somewhere in that timeframe, I can't remember exactly where,

440
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 3: but I started seeing posts about sober living and alcohol

441
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 3: free living. They were showing up in my Instagram feed,

442
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 3: and I did not want to see them. I was

443
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 3: like scroll, scroll, not interested, not interested. But then then

444
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: I'm like looking and some of them are people I know,

445
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: and they're telling their stories and I didn't even know

446
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 3: they had a problem. And then there's all these other

447
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 3: women that are probably ten years older than me, and

448
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: I'm looking at their photos and I'm like, gosh, they

449
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 3: look great, they're really healthy, they're having fun, and so

450
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: I kind of allowed slowly, it was just like this

451
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: very slow process for me where I just started listening

452
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 3: and paying attention and allowing another perspective in. And I

453
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 3: think that somewhere and there is when I came across

454
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 3: Andy Grace from This Naked Mind and talk about cognitive dissonance.

455
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 3: Her information is so confronting. Yeah, so confronting. It's just science.

456
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: Yep, So you don't.

457
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: Know who any Grace is that. I mean, that's a

458
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: great point, like she really approaches this from a science,

459
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 2: from a science backed thing about your health really and

460
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: what it does your brain and yeah system.

461
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 3: And it's totally without shame, which I think I really

462
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 3: appreciate the conversation these days around alcohol because for me,

463
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 3: just and I know that being an alcoholic and that

464
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,239
Speaker 3: kind of language resonates for some people and it is

465
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: their path out. For me, it didn't resonate. I would

466
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 3: not have found myself going to an AA meeting we're

467
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 3: calling myself an alcoholic or anything like that. So the

468
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 3: way that she approaches it is just to evaluate your

469
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: relationship with alcohol, you know, is it what you want

470
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 3: it to be? And also here's some scientific information. And

471
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 3: so one of the first things I heard from her

472
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: was that the good feelings that you get from alcohol

473
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 3: last about eighteen minutes, and that's about the time that

474
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 3: we all reach for another drink. And so I just

475
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 3: started paying attention to my own patterns during that time,

476
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: and I went back to social drinking after taking a

477
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 3: long break, and I'd have a drink and I'd notice

478
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 3: when I wanted another one, and I'd look at the

479
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 3: clock and it would be like eighteen to twenty minutes

480
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: after I'd had my drink, and I was like, oh, wow,

481
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 3: I am not in control of this thing. This you know,

482
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: this is a thing that is happening outside of my choices,

483
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 3: and I think I'm making these choices, but I'm not really,

484
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 3: So that was really confronting. And also when I went

485
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 3: back to the social drinking, the way it impacted my

486
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: body was just horrible. So eight for that eighteen minutes

487
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: of good feelings, I would feel terrible for a week. Yeah,

488
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: you know, at least for days on end. Like it

489
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: wasn't just the next day, and it didn't have to

490
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: be a lot of alcohol. It just the way it

491
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 3: was hitting my body was completely different than before. I

492
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 3: think has something to do with age or whatever. We're

493
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: not going to get into that, but whatever the reason,

494
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: it's just like the recovery, My workouts would be terrible.

495
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: I'd feel awful, sluggish, all the things for days for

496
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 3: what for eighteen minutes, it just stopped making sense. So

497
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 3: there was just this really slow process of me going

498
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: why would I do that? But then I've got all

499
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: these strong stories built about what it does for me,

500
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: and you know how it enhances my life and it

501
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 3: makes celebrations more fun, and alcohol for me is so

502
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: tied into relationships and girls' trips and laughter and connection

503
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: it's just real positive stuff, right, and so it could

504
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 3: like for me, it just wasn't okay, I'm just not

505
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: going to do this at all. I had to figure

506
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 3: out what does it look like if I don't?

507
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: And so what you know, you have all those stories

508
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: you've told yourself right about what it does for you.

509
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: How did you get to the point of and you

510
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: have this actually this beautiful, vivid story you tell in

511
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: the beginning of your piece, But how do you get

512
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: to the point where you finally overcome that cognitive dissonance?

513
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: What does that look like?

514
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's very slow. Again, there were other That's

515
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: the only fact I can remember right now, the eighteen

516
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 3: minute one that there were other ones that came into

517
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 3: my my feed and I'm paying attention and I'm listening

518
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: and I'm kind of comparing with what I think and

519
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 3: seeing how it doesn't add up. You know. That's that

520
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: cognitive dissonance where you're like, wait, the belief I have

521
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 3: built around this is not in line with my experience,

522
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 3: So something's wrong. And I kind of just really backed

523
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 3: off where I wasn't drinking very much at all, and

524
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: I would go out with friends, stay sober, go out

525
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 3: with friends, maybe have a drink, kind of pay attention

526
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: to my patterns. That's where the stories started coming up.

527
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: Like that's the continued drinking was a gift to me

528
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 3: because it helped me unravel the lies where you're in

529
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: a social situation and you think, oh, I need to

530
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: have a drink for this to be fun, and then

531
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 3: you stop and go, wait, why when I was a kid,

532
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: I didn't need alcohol to have fun? Like where did

533
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: that switch where we now need something else to have fun?

534
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, think about the most fun you've had in your life,

535
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: and they probably happened in your younger years, right, Like,

536
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: just so your sense of enjoyment is just you know,

537
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: it's like you're not drinking back then.

538
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: Nope, So why for some reason we become adults and

539
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 3: we think this is what makes situations fun. So so

540
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: then fast track to last July. So July of twenty

541
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 3: twenty four, it's a friend's birthday party. We're out at

542
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 3: a beautiful place in the hill country here in Texas

543
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 3: and the sun is setting and we're on a patio

544
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: and this place is known for its wine and wood

545
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: fired pizzas. Like it's such a such a vibe and

546
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 3: I have a glass of wine and I'm immediately reaching

547
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: poor for like a second half glass without even thinking,

548
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: and internally I have this like this check, you know,

549
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 3: just a pause internally and I'm thinking, why did I

550
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: do that? And I don't know. It was just like

551
00:32:54,080 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: this lingering, lingering feeling so clear, like this is in

552
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: alignment for you. And I woke up that I didn't

553
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 3: get drunk. I didn't like, I didn't. I don't even

554
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 3: remember getting buzzed, like I just I woke up the

555
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: next day still with that like lingering feeling, and I

556
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 3: just thought, Okay, I'm going to take another long break.

557
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: I still wasn't ready to say I'm done with this completely.

558
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: I'm just going to take another long break. So I

559
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: take another long break. I end up at a retreat

560
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 3: in September with a bunch of other women and I

561
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: had a really really encountering time with God and it

562
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 3: was just so clear, like just be done. And so

563
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: I just I left that retreat and I was like,

564
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: I'm just done. I'm not going to drink anymore, probably

565
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 3: ever again. And that was nine months ago.

566
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: What did you come back and tell your husband about

567
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: that decision? How do you explain that to him. How

568
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: have you explained it to others?

569
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: You know, my husband and I didn't really have a

570
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 3: super clear conversation about this along the way I was

571
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: doing this was all internal. Yeah, So I'm trying to

572
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 3: remember when I told him like I think I'm done

573
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 3: with that. It was probably after that retreat in September.

574
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 3: And then this was really hard. In January of this year,

575
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 3: we went away to kind of plan for the year,

576
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 3: and we had planned to have a conversation because one

577
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 3: thing I forgot to tell you was this is in

578
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 3: the article, but I didn't say it when we were

579
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 3: early on in recovery. One of the other reasons I

580
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 3: really had to put alcohol on the shelf was not

581
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 3: just my health, but it you know, it lowers your inhibitions,

582
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: which means I was really easily triggered and would I

583
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 3: would lash out at him like my anger was justified.

584
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to say that being angry was wrong,

585
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 3: because I don't believe that. But had I not had

586
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 3: the alcohol, I wouldn't have wielded it the way that

587
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 3: I did. Right, right, And so it was really clear

588
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 3: that this had no place in our recovery. And in

589
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 3: January of this year, he was able to tell me

590
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 3: like how that impacted him, and that was such a

591
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 3: hard conversation but really beautiful to have, but also to

592
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 3: hear like, oh, I hate that I let that eighteen minutes. Yeah,

593
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 3: that I wanted to feel better open this door for

594
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 3: you know, the harm that you experienced from me.

595
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 2: And so I think you know there's this I want

596
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 2: to read something that you wrote, because I think even

597
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: even as you're telling this story, you know, I think

598
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 2: I know I was gonna say, I'm hoping, but I

599
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: know there's someone listening who will see themselves in this story.

600
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: And yet you have this, you have this, this this

601
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: paragraph right towards the end of of your article that

602
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: I want to read and says I can't help but

603
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 2: look back and see what I once ignored those times

604
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: I drove home more and more impaired than I wanted

605
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: to admit, laughing it off the next day, imagining myself

606
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,959
Speaker 2: as the next headline and some homeschool mom's gone wild

607
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 2: highlight reel. But what was I laughing at the fact

608
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: that I'd made it home, that I'd gotten away with it,

609
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: that I could ignore the consequences because I wasn't as

610
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: bad as other people. I see it now, the way

611
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: I let alcohol blur reality. And so I think what

612
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: is so important about your story is your drinking may

613
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 2: not look like drunk every night, you know, you being

614
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: the one cheating on your husband or being out until all,

615
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 2: you know, like whatever, and yet you still cross you know,

616
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 2: I call them crossing the rubicon, right, you still cross

617
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: those rubicons. You still made those compromises. And I think

618
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: what I hope people realize from your story is that

619
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: when you're again, no matter how much you're drinking, if

620
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: you are searing your conscience, yeah right, and it is

621
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: telling you don't do this, and you're doing it even

622
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: if you're not getting drunk, that that is going to

623
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 2: manifest itself in your life in other ways.

624
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 3: Right yeah. And I mean it's hilarious because this is

625
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 3: the work that I do with women, is this soul reclamation,

626
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: like reclaiming themselves and you know, untying from all of

627
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 3: the stories and all of this. Like I have that

628
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 3: coaching training and I wasn't using it on.

629
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: Myself, right, isn't that funny?

630
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: You know? Yeah? And then I start thinking, oh, well,

631
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 3: when you're living out of alignment, like you're saying, when

632
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 3: you're out of alignment with what your soul is telling

633
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 3: you to do, it is exhausting. You're going to create burnout.

634
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: Exactly right.

635
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: So I want to go back to the title of

636
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: your piece because I think it's it's really interesting and

637
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: maybe you don't want to give you a chance to

638
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 2: explain it. That leaving my most you know, a glass

639
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: half empty, leaving my most abusive relationship? How in a sense, then,

640
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: how were you you describe this as an abusive relationship?

641
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: What did How can you describe it like that?

642
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 3: Like?

643
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: What is it about the relationship that was abusive? Because

644
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 2: I think some people are be like, well, I don't

645
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: see any bruises in a sense, right, Like there's no

646
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: visible bruises. What do you mean it's an abusive relationship?

647
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: Explain that?

648
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 3: So I equate it to the toxic friend. And I

649
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: don't know if you've ever had one of these, but

650
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: I have. And they come into your life and they

651
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: are just amazing, like they love you so well, they

652
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 3: make life better, it's fun, and then just certain things

653
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 3: happen along the way and you keep wondering why you

654
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 3: feel worse when they've left. You know you're you're making

655
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 3: up excuses for them even though they're hurting you, they're

656
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 3: causing a lot of harm, but you're kind of defending

657
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 3: them and saying, oh, no, no, it's not them, it's

658
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 3: probably me. So that's kind of the metaphor that I

659
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 3: was using with alcohol. But for me, I think I

660
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 3: just I kept regurgitating stories that it enhanced my life

661
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 3: when it really was taking so much more than it

662
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 3: was giving. And that's how it was a toxic or

663
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: abusive relationship, is it was taking so much more of me.

664
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 3: And it was like, when you're living like that, or

665
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: your conscience is telling you to do something different and

666
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 3: you're you're not, that is such a discrepancy within your soul,

667
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 3: like you just you can't be living the fullness of

668
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 3: who you are that way at all. So me giving

669
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,959
Speaker 3: up alcohol was again like a bit of a soul

670
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 3: reclamation for me, so that I can be who I

671
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 3: was created to be fully without anything dulling my senses

672
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: or changing how I interact or whatever. It is that

673
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 3: I think most of the stories that I believed were

674
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 3: marketing really good marketing.

675
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: It's funny.

676
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you, that's literally was

677
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: my next question. Where did those stories come from? For you?

678
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, which pissed me off when I realized it, and

679
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: I was thinking, oh, these are not stories I created.

680
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 3: These are stories I ingested from really good marketing, and

681
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 3: marketers are selling us poison and we are defending it.

682
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 3: We defend alcohol by we create this persona of an

683
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 3: alcoholic person. Yes, and in that way we defend this

684
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: substance that is very toxic to our body. It's highly addictive.

685
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter who you are, Like, don't talk to

686
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: me about addicted personality, Like, have you ever drank more

687
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 3: than you wanted to? Have you ever noticed? Yeah? Have

688
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 3: you ever noticed a time in your life where you're

689
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: drinking increased and you're not an addicted person? So so yeah,

690
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 3: that part really pissed me off when I realized that

691
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: it was just programming. And that's probably made me so

692
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 3: angry because of my high control religion background as well.

693
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 3: I'm like, gosh, another place where people were putting stories

694
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 3: into my mind. You're not going to have that, you know, right, right,

695
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 3: So that was really kind of like the end point

696
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 3: for me where I was like, uh uh, I'm not

697
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 3: I'm not drinking the school aid anymore.

698
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 2: And I know people who listen to this podcast, I've

699
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: heard me say this before, but I think it's important

700
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: to reiterate in case you're listening for the first time.

701
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: But you know, you talked about we create this persona

702
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: of what an alcoholic is, right, and that I mean,

703
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: I spend a whole chapter on that because it's so important.

704
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 2: Is that when you think alcoholic, you mean whoever. You know,

705
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: there's no doubt that there's a certain person, there's an

706
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: image that comes to mind, and guess what, it's not you.

707
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: It's not you.

708
00:41:58,160 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: It's like it never is.

709
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 3: Mom who's hiding vodka in the laundry room.

710
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 2: It's the mom getting pulled over for DUIs, yeah, and

711
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 2: not being able to, you know, walk a straight line.

712
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: But I'm not doing that not you know, Yeah, I.

713
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: Have it under control. Like the amount of times in

714
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 3: that article that I try to let everybody know that

715
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: I would say I have this under control. I have

716
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 3: this under control. If you have to be saying that

717
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 3: so much to yourself, do you really? You know?

718
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,959
Speaker 1: And yeah, thus does thus doth protest too much?

719
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah? And then the other thing that that really

720
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: got me was just the amount of mental energy and

721
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 3: mental gymnastics that it was taking up whether to drink,

722
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,479
Speaker 3: to not drink, how much to drink, where to drink,

723
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 3: what to drink. You know, It's just it was exhausting.

724
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: And I think to that point as well, what we

725
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 2: talked about an alcoholic looking like is you know, I

726
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: joke that I use the term in my book, you know,

727
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 2: Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic, and yet I fully ad

728
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: I take an entire chapter to say that's not the

729
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: best term to use. But I joke that Confessions of

730
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: a Christian with Alcohol Use Disorder is not a catchy title.

731
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: But but but really, what I want to do is

732
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 2: really and I'm not trying to like, you know, I'm

733
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: not here like Oprah like you're an alcoholic.

734
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 3: You're an alcoholic?

735
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, but the definition changed, right, and it

736
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: has changed in the d s M five, which is

737
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: the manual of addiction in the healthcare field. And it's

738
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: no longer binary thing. It's no longer are you an

739
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: alcoholic or not? Are you drinking too much or not?

740
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: It's it now is alcohol use disorder. And the things

741
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: that you outlined, the questions are intentionally like have you

742
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: ever drank more in the last you know, I think

743
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 2: I think it's like twelve months, have you ever drank

744
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: more than you wanted to than you set out to?

745
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: And then like you answer that yes and one other

746
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 2: question yes, and they're like, hey, you're on the spectrum

747
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 2: and that scares people. And I guess I'm like, I

748
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: hope it does.

749
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 3: Right, it should. And I think that's where we keep

750
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: ourselves stuck. Is that picture of the alcoholic or the

751
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 3: person who really has a problem, It's never going to

752
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 3: be us. We're never going to be the one in

753
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 3: that photo. We're just going to be the ones who

754
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: had a little bit more than we wanted to. Yeah, yeah, everybody.

755
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: Does that exactly. We'll be right back after this.

756
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: When it comes to like what was the hardest you know,

757
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 2: I think for some people I asked this question, like, wow,

758
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: there was withdrawals, there was, you know way, but what

759
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 2: was the hardest part of making the decision and saying

760
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: I'm done, Like I'm done, this is it for good,

761
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: I'm done. What was the hardest part in the immediate

762
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 2: aftermath of that?

763
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 3: For you it's it's still there and it's the reframing

764
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: of my life and finding you know, I don't know

765
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 3: if you want to go here on this conversation. But

766
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 3: in and in the midst of all of this that

767
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 3: happened over the last few years is also the deconstruction

768
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 3: and reconstruction of my faith and so shifting communities and

769
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 3: friends and activities and trying to build a new way.

770
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 3: What does that look like. I'm still in the midst

771
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: of it. I get pockets of it where, you know,

772
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 3: I meet these women and we have an amazing time,

773
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 3: and alcohols never in it, never in the picture. But

774
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 3: it's just kind of like the rebuilding of the life

775
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: after and knowing that it's going to be okay if

776
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 3: it's different. I'm still I'm still kind of figuring that out.

777
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 3: And that was the hardest part of the fear of

778
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 3: losing friendships, the fear of losing connection of community. You know,

779
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 3: like when you come out publicly with an article like this,

780
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 3: I already feel people like pulling back a little bit.

781
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 3: And I don't know if that's you know, I didn't

782
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 3: know you had a problem, or I don't really want

783
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 3: to be thinking about this, or you know.

784
00:45:59,239 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: What is that?

785
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 3: What do you think about me? I don't know what

786
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 3: they're what they're feeling. But when you, you know, you

787
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: start coming out publicly like I don't drink alcohol and

788
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: I think it's toxic.

789
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: Right, right, It's funny, guys, I do think there are

790
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 2: people who are convicted, right, And listen, my goal I

791
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: tell people like, I'm not out here saying that you

792
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 2: can't be a Christian drink that no one should ever

793
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: like to if that is, you know, like like if

794
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 2: you can, great and you knew it responsibly and you

795
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: don't feel the health effects or you don't think they're

796
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 2: like whatever. But it is surprising to me. I mean,

797
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 2: I remember when I first first wrote about this in

798
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 2: June of twenty four, when I first like, you came

799
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: out in an oracle, and I remember this guy sent

800
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: me a message and a guy who I had seen

801
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 2: like drunk during an election to night, you know, on Facebook,

802
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: you know, being like there's no such thing as a

803
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: Christian alcoholic. You just need more Jesus and and kind

804
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 2: of all this stuff. And I was like, well, ironically,

805
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 2: yes I did need more Jesus.

806
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 3: I guess.

807
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 1: My priorities were not in line.

808
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 2: But here's a guy who I've seen publicly drunk, and

809
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: you know, it was just obvious to me that he

810
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 2: was uncomfortable with the idea. And and I think there

811
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 2: are a lot of people like that, right.

812
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 3: And I and I don't Yeah, I don't want to

813
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 3: make people I care about uncomfortable. Right.

814
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I was gonna say, is I hope.

815
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: I hope they I hope they're not uncomfortable in the

816
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: sense because they feel like I'm judging them. But if

817
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 2: my life naturally calls you to something better, praise God,

818
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 2: because it's not the work of me. I can tell

819
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 2: you that, right and and and so I hope that

820
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 2: you know, maybe there are some people around you. I mean,

821
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: this would be my encouragement to people listening, is like,

822
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 2: there may be people around you who are like that's

823
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: you know, it makes them uncomfortable. And I'd be like,

824
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: you know what, the Lord has blessed me with a

825
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: lot of new and differences.

826
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 3: Yes, And so that's what I'm in the midst of,

827
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 3: is that transition where there is new and it is

828
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: starting and it is beautiful and good, but it's not

829
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 3: fully there. And so you asked what was like, what

830
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 3: was the I don't know how you worded it, maybe

831
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 3: the scariest thing, but that was it? Community, family, well,

832
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 3: my husband doesn't drink at all. It's great, so that

833
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 3: makes it really easy. Yeah.

834
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 2: Is that is that something he never did or is

835
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: that like in support?

836
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 3: Oh no, he was never much of a drinker. If anything,

837
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 3: he would have half a beer. I think he doesn't

838
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: have the right enzymes to metabolize alcohol, so it makes

839
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 3: him feel really really bad, and I.

840
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: Wish I had.

841
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 3: I know, I have another friend who's allergic to alcohol,

842
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 3: and I'm like, that's amazing. It's like me being allergic

843
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 3: to gluten. I would never touch it. I don't touch it,

844
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, right, But that shifted to when that

845
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 3: uptick did happen in my life, that then he needed

846
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 3: to be the responsible one. So it did shift to that,

847
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 3: and he wasn't able to tell me that until very recently,

848
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 3: like maybe a few weeks ago. So there is still

849
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 3: so much that's being unpacked and unraveled. Yeah. My daughter

850
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 3: follows me on substack and she listened to that article

851
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 3: because you can listen to it. I know it's long,

852
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 3: but there's a really lovely AI bought that reads it

853
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 3: to you. And she said, oh, I didn't even know

854
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 3: you had a problem, And I was like, yeah, I

855
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 3: mean I did, and I didn't.

856
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 2: You know, right, my problem looked a little different than

857
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: probably what you think a problem looks like. Yeah, And

858
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: I think in a sense that is a great summation

859
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: of your story, which is you did have a problem,

860
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: like you had a drinking problem, and I think some

861
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 2: people are you know, I don't think you're not running

862
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: away from that. You wrote an article about it. And

863
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: yet your drinking problem doesn't look didn't look like my

864
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 2: drinking problem, and it doesn't look like the person who's

865
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: listening to this nodding their head or shaking their head,

866
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: it doesn't look like they're drinking problem. But when anything

867
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 2: is misordered, it is disordered. And in your story, is

868
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 2: it was misordered? It was misordered.

869
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: What would be your.

870
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 2: Final encouragement to someone who is listening to this and

871
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 2: they're seeing themselves in your story.

872
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 3: I really like the way that Annie Grace approaches this,

873
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 3: where she just encourages you to start thinking about your

874
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 3: relationship with alcohol. Don't change anything about what you're doing.

875
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 3: Just start paying attention and be aware, like be mindful

876
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 3: about you're drinking, be mindful about your patterns, and start

877
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 3: noticing what you notice. And as you do that those

878
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 3: stories are going to come up, and that cognitive dissonance

879
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 3: is going to come up, and you get to confront Okay,

880
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 3: I really feel like I need a drink right now? Why?

881
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 3: Why do I feel like I need that? And is

882
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 3: that true?

883
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah?

884
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 3: You know, well, okay, I need a stress Is that true?

885
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 3: Does alcohol relieve your stress or does it increase your

886
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 3: course all after?

887
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: Yeah?

888
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 3: So that would be my encouragement.

889
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 2: And I think the final question is you kind of

890
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: broke us a little bit, But how would you say

891
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 2: your relationship? What does your relationship with Jesus looked like

892
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 2: since quitting? How did that affect how did that go

893
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 2: into it? Like like where? How would you describe that?

894
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 3: It's really interesting and probably a whole other podcast. Sure,

895
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 3: my substack is called in the waiting room because I

896
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 3: am very much in the spiritual waiting room. But one

897
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 3: thing that has never shifted for me is my connection

898
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 3: to Jesus, and that stayed very st wrong. The rest

899
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 3: of my faith is in flux and on the chopping

900
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 3: block a lot of the time. So I don't know

901
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 3: if that's answering your question. But in September I was

902
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 3: not at a Christian retreat. I was just at a

903
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 3: retreat and I very much encountered God with a bunch

904
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 3: of women who were not Christian, and that was the

905
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 3: marker for me. It's like it was a very clear

906
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 3: reconnection for me that that brought clarity in this realm

907
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 3: of my life. So connection to Jesus has stayed strong.

908
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would say, uh, you know, there's a

909
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 2: lot that Jesus can work through, meaning meaning like, uh,

910
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 2: you know I've had I've had the Holy Spirit prompt mean,

911
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 2: you know while listening to country music, you know, I mean,

912
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm not saying it's not the country

913
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 2: music that did that, it was you know.

914
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: He just I don't think he cares.

915
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 3: I think that boxes get to get blown up everywhere.

916
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: What's that got?

917
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 3: Boxes get to get blown up everywhere? And God is

918
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 3: a lot bigger than the boxes that we put him in.

919
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 2: And he blew me up, that's for sure. And He's

920
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: been faithful to put me back together. And I pray

921
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 2: that same thing, you know for people listening. I pray

922
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 2: for you. I pray for everyone, you know, Heidi. If

923
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: people want to read that great substack, I'll have a

924
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 2: link to the specific article. But where can they go

925
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:28,399
Speaker 2: to find more about what you're writing about.

926
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, Substack, I have two publications on there, so one

927
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 3: is in the waiting Room, and then the other one

928
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 3: is my soul Care seventy five, which is just a

929
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 3: free community experience that I have for women.

930
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: And explain that a little bit. The soul Care seventy five.

931
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 3: It's just okay, it's kind of the antithesis of the

932
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 3: seventy five hards. I don't know if you've ever heard

933
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 3: of that.

934
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I did it. I did it once.

935
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 2: I don't think I didn't quite make it seventy five,

936
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: but that was like one of my last big attempts

937
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 2: to stop drinking.

938
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

939
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're like thirty yep, like we do. So soul

940
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 3: Care seventy five is like the complete opposite, and it's

941
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 3: just slowing down and we do one thing every week.

942
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 3: There's like there's one focus for the week and the

943
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,919
Speaker 3: whole process is just to help us slow down, reconnect

944
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 3: and move forward in a different way. It's everything that

945
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 3: I learned recovering from burnout.

946
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 2: Well great, well, Heidi, thank you for sharing your story.

947
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: Thank you for being radically vulnerable and honest. And I

948
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 2: know that there are people listening who this will help,

949
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 2: and so I really I really appreciate it.

950
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,320
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining.

951
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 3: Us, Thanks for having me.

952
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 2: Eighteen minutes. I think that stat is so interesting. Eighteen minutes,

953
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 2: that's how long the benefits of alcohol last. And then

954
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 2: we start feeling inside effects, right, and so then eighteen

955
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 2: minutes later we try to drink again, and I think

956
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 2: that that that just.

957
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: Blew me away.

958
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 2: And I know that you may have read any Grace's

959
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 2: this Naked Mind, which is not necessarily coming from well,

960
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 2: it's not coming from I don't think like a Christian

961
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 2: faith based perspective, meaning that's not that's not the that's

962
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: not kind of the basis that it uses to try

963
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 2: to convince you about what alcohol is doing to you

964
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 2: comes more from a science backed approach. But I love

965
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: some of those facts, right, because I think they are important,

966
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,720
Speaker 2: they like and I think it just awakens you even

967
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: more so to what the devil tries to do to

968
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 2: so many of us with alcohol. Something that gives us

969
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: eighteen minutes of quote unquote benefit, and so many of

970
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,720
Speaker 2: us will throw so much away and reorient our lives

971
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: around it. And I think it's just an awakening, an awakening, fact,

972
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: really appreciated Heidi's honesty. You can go check her out,

973
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: included her information in the show notes, and appreciate just

974
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,839
Speaker 2: her vulnerability. Definally, in a sense quote unquote come clean.

975
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 2: That's kind of what she called it and said, So, Heidi,

976
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you for your radical vulnerability. If you

977
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 2: are looking for more, you can go to Christian Alcoholic

978
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 2: dot com. Christianlcoholic dot com has my book. It does

979
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 2: have a link to that nonprofit ministry that I've started

980
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 2: now for people like me, people like you, Veritas Recovery

981
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 2: and so you can find the link there or just

982
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 2: go to Veritasrecovery dot org. Thankful as always to Life

983
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:41,280
Speaker 2: Audio and Life audio dot com for making this podcast possible.

984
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: You can go over there and check out as well

985
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: some other great episodes. We will see you here again

986
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: next week