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Speaker 1: Life Audio. Are we witnessing a scientific revolution that challenges

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Speaker 1: materialism and points to God?

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Speaker 2: So universe cannot come from nothing? So if God does

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Speaker 2: not exist, we are nothing.

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Speaker 1: We haven't been here forever. Hence it must have a beginning,

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Speaker 1: and that challenges materialism.

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Speaker 2: Life of materialist is very difficult. It's very difficult. They

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Speaker 2: want to believe that there is not one universe. There

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Speaker 2: is many universe multiverse and people are fed up of that.

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Speaker 1: Are we witnessing a scientific revolution that challenges materialism and

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Speaker 1: points to God? Our yesterday? Michel eve Bollarre is a

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Speaker 1: French computer engineer and intellectual who's collaborating with a team

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Speaker 1: of twenty high level intellectual specialists and scientists to document

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Speaker 1: what he calls the Great reversal, in which science has

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Speaker 1: now become God's ally rather than God's adversary. He's co

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Speaker 1: written a book that has quite remarkably sold more than

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Speaker 1: four hundred thousand copies. The title is God, the Science

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Speaker 1: the Evidence. Michel, thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Sean. It's a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's jump right in. There are some similar

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Speaker 1: books written by American scholars that you're familiar with, such

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Speaker 1: as the Return of the God hypothesis by Stephen Meyer.

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Speaker 1: Is your book the first of its kind in French?

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Speaker 1: And how has it been received?

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Speaker 2: Our book has been very well received. As you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: the book have told more than four hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: thousand copies today, which is for a book about the

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Speaker 2: ividence of God, of the existence of God, which is

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Speaker 2: really a huge number, and we have been quite surprised,

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Speaker 2: i must say. And this proves that there is a

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Speaker 2: real hunger of people to know and to hear about

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Speaker 2: evidence of the existence of God. So that really that

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Speaker 2: was really a real joy for us. What we want

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Speaker 2: to say first thing is that our book is for

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Speaker 2: the general public. It's a little bit different from some

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Speaker 2: of the books that you have mentioned. Our book is

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Speaker 2: written for anybody in your father, in my family, anybody

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Speaker 2: ordinary people like you and me, for people in our families.

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Speaker 2: The families are today divided because in average in Europe,

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Speaker 2: fifty percent of the population believing God and fifty percent

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Speaker 2: do not believe in God. So it's alpha and alve

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Speaker 2: and this division is going through inside the family itself.

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Speaker 2: So families are are there is a lot of anxiety

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Speaker 2: and people want.

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Speaker 3: To know more.

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Speaker 2: So we thought we had to do a book which

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Speaker 2: is for the general public. So our book is easy

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Speaker 2: to read, though it's perfectly exact. And as you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: we have wrote our book with the help of twenty

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Speaker 2: five to thirty very important experts, including some Nobel Price.

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Speaker 2: So this book is a little bit different of the

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Speaker 2: one you mentioned of Steve Meyer. I love this book

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Speaker 2: very much. The written of God Hypothesis is very good,

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Speaker 2: but it's more intellectual than our book. And our book

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Speaker 2: is not only genal public, but it is also not

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Speaker 2: only a cosmology or the biology. We have also made

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Speaker 2: an investigation in philosophy, morality, and history. And this is

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Speaker 2: quite important, I think, because if you are thinking of

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Speaker 2: a normal person who is just wondering what should I

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Speaker 2: believe in God or not God, and really asking himself,

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Speaker 2: it's this question. It's not only science we want. If

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Speaker 2: God exists, all the domain of all the domains must

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Speaker 2: go in the same direction. We cannot imagine, for example,

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Speaker 2: that science would go one way and philosophy would go

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Speaker 2: another way. So we have explored not only science, but

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Speaker 2: we have one third of the book which is a

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Speaker 2: little bit of philosophy, but some very amusing three leg

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Speaker 2: chapters about history about morality, which I think is very important.

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Speaker 2: For example, if God does not exist, then everything is permitted.

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Speaker 2: Are we ready to accept that? So it's a book

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Speaker 2: which is more general. I would say that the one

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Speaker 2: you mentioned.

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Speaker 1: That's totally fair. In some ways. We could do multiple

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Speaker 1: interviews out the different sections of the book. The argument

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Speaker 1: you make kind of historically for the Judaeo Christian faith,

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Speaker 1: the philosophical argument you make, we're going to focus on

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Speaker 1: kind of the first big chunk of the book, the

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Speaker 1: scientific revolution. But I have one more question for you

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Speaker 1: before we jump into the scientific evidence. And I would

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Speaker 1: second that it's very readable. It's a big book. I

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Speaker 1: want people to see the size of it. It's not

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Speaker 1: a small book. But it's readable. It's doable. I've written

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Speaker 1: popular apologetics books and I read this at People could

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Speaker 1: definitely read it and work it through without having a

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Speaker 1: master's degree in philosophy, science, or history. That's for sure.

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Speaker 1: But I'm really curious about your personal journey faith. Of course,

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Speaker 1: you've worked with twenty five scholars, you have a co

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Speaker 1: author on this, But did the scientific or historical or

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Speaker 1: philosophical evidence play a role in your journey to faith?

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Speaker 1: Why do you personally believe in God.

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Speaker 2: So we are two of the book with two different ashs. Personally,

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Speaker 2: there is nothing special I would say in my life

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Speaker 2: because I am born in a Christian family and we

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Speaker 2: were five children, and I have been educated in the

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Speaker 2: Christian faith. So for me, there has never been any

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Speaker 2: change of direction in my life. The only thing I

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Speaker 2: would say is when I became, for example, an engineer,

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Speaker 2: I thought that if I was a Christian, it would

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Speaker 2: be very important that my face should be supported and

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Speaker 2: should be coherent with what I was learning, which was science.

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Speaker 2: So I had always in mind, even when I was

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Speaker 2: twenty or thirty, that one day I should dig this

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Speaker 2: question more interesting, I think is the path of my cauthor.

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Speaker 2: Oliviebonasi is a mathematician. He has made the best university

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Speaker 2: in France for mathematics Polytechnique, And when he was twenty

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Speaker 2: he was an atheist, so and all his family was

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Speaker 2: an atheist. So one day he read a book about

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Speaker 2: the reason to believe in God, and he thought it

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Speaker 2: would be for fun. That was just it was just

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Speaker 2: a litt bit ridiculous. But still he read the book

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Speaker 2: and he said, wow, it's very serious. So he read

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Speaker 2: several books and reading books. He has changed his mind

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Speaker 2: when he was perhaps twenty five or something like that,

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Speaker 2: and then following him all his family converted also to Christianity.

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Speaker 2: So it's very interesting to see that in the path

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Speaker 2: of Olivia Oli. But as he my couthor just by

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Speaker 2: if I may say, the path of reason, reason has

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Speaker 2: been changing his decision to become a visiver. So that's

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Speaker 2: very interesting.

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Speaker 1: That's totally interesting. Two, the main roles of apologetics are

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Speaker 1: to strengthen believers like yourself, to find out is my

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Speaker 1: faith reasonable and rational? Does it actually describe reality? And

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Speaker 1: to also draw non believers with open hearts and open

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Speaker 1: minds to consider whether or not there is a God.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's unique that the two of you

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Speaker 1: came together in writing this and researching this book. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's start with the background of what makes this revolution

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Speaker 1: you talk about so surprising. At the dawn of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century, What was the scientific consensus about the existence

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Speaker 1: of God and how did most scientists list in the

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Speaker 1: West view the relationship between science and religion.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, the beginning of the twentieth century, it

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Speaker 2: was a triumph for the materialist, for the athelets because

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Speaker 2: they had behind them they had false centuries, four centuries

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Speaker 2: of plenty of discoveries, which all of them themed to say,

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Speaker 2: we don't need God to explain the world. That was

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Speaker 2: a situation if you were if you think, starting with

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Speaker 2: of course Copernicus Galileo, the idea that the Earth was

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Speaker 2: at the center of the universe was destroyed. The ideas

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Speaker 2: that the Sun was revolving about this around the earth

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Speaker 2: was also destroyed. And then after the ideas that the

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Speaker 2: earth was six thousand years old was destroyed by before

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Speaker 2: and so the earth was very old in fact. And

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Speaker 2: then after you had discoveries of la Mark and Darwin.

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Speaker 2: So it was possible to explain life and man without

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Speaker 2: using God, you know. And it was terrible because people

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Speaker 2: like Laplace. There is a funny story of the mathematics

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Speaker 2: the French mathematician Laplace with Napoleon, and Laplace comes to

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Speaker 2: visit Napoleon and it shows to him the mathematical equation

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Speaker 2: of the solar system and his here are how it works.

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Speaker 2: And Napoleon has a look to the equation and he says,

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Speaker 2: perhaps it's true, perhaps it's a legend, but more or

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Speaker 2: less it's important. It's interesting. So Napoleon would have said,

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Speaker 2: but where is God in this equation?

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Speaker 3: And then Laplace.

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Speaker 2: Said, sire, I don't need God as an hypothesis. So

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Speaker 2: all this the summary of the modern spirit was there.

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Speaker 2: We don't need God to explain the world. So after

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Speaker 2: Lamarck and Darwins there was fraud and marks and not

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Speaker 2: only it was not necessary to have God to explain

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Speaker 2: the world, but if I may say, much worse, fraud

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Speaker 2: and Darwin said, not only we don't need God, but

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Speaker 2: in addition, God is a poison for humanity, because it's

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Speaker 2: because of the idea of God that people are poor.

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Speaker 2: It's because the idea of church and religion that we

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Speaker 2: are not free. Let's get rid of Let's get rid

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Speaker 2: of the idea of God. So we were in almost

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Speaker 2: nineteen hundred and then all Europe there were revolution essayist

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Speaker 2: revolution if you think of Russia in nineteen seventeen with Lenine,

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Speaker 2: in Italy with Mussolini in the twenties, with Hitler in

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Speaker 2: the thirties, in Germany, in Spain in nineteen thirty six,

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Speaker 2: and then in China with mau Settum. So there is

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Speaker 2: a triumph of materialism in the beginning of the twentieth century.

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Speaker 2: This is the background really the big picture of science,

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Speaker 2: philosophy and political ideas. And if we if we go

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Speaker 2: back to the beginning of this twentieth century, all scientists

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Speaker 2: and philosophers thought that science would always continue in the

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Speaker 2: same direction. That more and more we would say, with

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Speaker 2: God doesn't exist, we don't need God to explain. And

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Speaker 2: what happened was for surprising, because what happened and we

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Speaker 2: want to count in our book, to relate in our

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Speaker 2: book is just writ the opposite discoveries, one after the others,

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Speaker 2: shows that we cannot avoid we need God to explain.

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Speaker 3: The world to universe.

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Speaker 2: It's not possible anymore to explain the universe without the

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Speaker 2: creator God. So the first really the first discovery was

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Speaker 2: something which people do not know and so it's very simple,

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Speaker 2: which is thermo dynamics. Thermo Dynamics was a science which

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Speaker 2: is very simple, but a complete revolution. Thermo dynamics says

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Speaker 2: that everything wears out, nothing lasts forever. Nothing lasts forever,

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Speaker 2: which means, for example, we know that our son will

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Speaker 2: it just a tank of hydrogen. It's like a tank

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Speaker 2: of gasoline. In five billion years, this tank will be

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Speaker 2: empty and the Sun will be a shutdown complete, will

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Speaker 2: be dead. And after the Sun, all the other stars

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Speaker 2: also will end, and all the universe will become very cold,

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Speaker 2: very dark, and extremely low density, let's say, almost empty.

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Speaker 2: And what we know by logic is that everything which

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Speaker 2: ends as necessarily a beginning. So this is where was

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Speaker 2: the first evidence that creator God was necessary, because our

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Speaker 2: universe will.

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Speaker 3: Have an end.

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Speaker 2: Everything which has an end has a beginning, and which

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Speaker 2: everything which has a beginning. At the course, that was

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Speaker 2: the Greek philosopher Parmenides two thousand and five years ago

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Speaker 2: who said this very important principle, which is the principle

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Speaker 2: of Parmenidas, from nothing, nothing can come from nothing. In

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Speaker 2: Latin it is ex nilo nil x nilo nil hit raps.

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Speaker 2: So what does that mean. That means that the universe

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Speaker 2: cannot come from nothing. So if God does not exist,

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Speaker 2: our universe is necessarily eternal. Since is the face of materialist,

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Speaker 2: all one hundred percent of materialists, they have to believe

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Speaker 2: that our universe is eternal. They need to believe it

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Speaker 2: in a way or another. But there is no materialist

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Speaker 2: who says that our universe has a beginning. So now

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Speaker 2: the question of the beginning of the universe has become

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Speaker 2: a scientific question, and during the twentieth century science was

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Speaker 2: able to collect six evidence. It takes a different evidence

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Speaker 2: that our universe cannot be eternal. So that's what's really

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Speaker 2: the very beginning of if I massage a problem for matterialist,

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Speaker 2: it's a big stone that they have in their shoes,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like a hold in their back. So

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Speaker 2: how do they cope with that today? Well, let's say.

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Speaker 1: I jump here. Let me jump in here really fast

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Speaker 1: before we get to the response of the materialist, because

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Speaker 1: I want you to lay out more of the evidence

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Speaker 1: and then we'll get to the response to it. Your

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Speaker 1: description what happened at the turn of the twentieth century

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Speaker 1: is so helpful and it's brilliant. In the book, you

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Speaker 1: call it the Great Reversal. So I want to make

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Speaker 1: sure that our viewers and listeners don't miss that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the dawn of the twentieth century, which now

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Speaker 1: some people might feel like is so long ago. But

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Speaker 1: my father's eighty six years old. My grandfather was born

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Speaker 1: in eighteen eight So when my grandfather was born, because

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Speaker 1: of the work and writings and shifts in science going

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Speaker 1: back like you said Comperticus, in Galileo and Marx and

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Speaker 1: Freud and Darwin, the assumption was that materialism was true

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Speaker 1: or could at least adequately explain the universe, and in

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Speaker 1: the twenty first century we would advance even further beyond

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Speaker 1: that and replace any need for God. This wasn't even

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Speaker 1: something according to your book, people were debating. They just

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Speaker 1: assumed it. So the discoveries you're talking about, such as

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Speaker 1: the thermal death of the universe is so surprising because

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Speaker 1: people weren't looking for it, they weren't expecting it, they

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Speaker 1: weren't contesting it, and then this evidence kind of bubbles up,

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Speaker 1: so to speak, challenges this notion. Now we're going to

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Speaker 1: get to this in a little bit. Some of my

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Speaker 1: favorite part of your book is the drama about what

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Speaker 1: it costs people to speak up for this science. I

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Speaker 1: had no idea this part read like a novel in

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Speaker 1: your book. But let's take a minute and talk about

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Speaker 1: the role that Einstein played in this. So you talked

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Speaker 1: about the thermal death of the universe, and in many ways,

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Speaker 1: if I could tell me if you would be okay

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Speaker 1: with this just for kind of non specialists in terms

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Speaker 1: of what we mean by the second law therm of dynamics,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll come to Einstein. If I take a

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Speaker 1: mug that's hot of coffee, eventually, over time it's going

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Speaker 1: to reach the same equilibrium or temperature of the environment

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Speaker 1: of which it's in. So over time there will be

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Speaker 1: a heat death. Then there'll be an equilibrium in the

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Speaker 1: universe where everything will be the same temperature. So the

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Speaker 1: fact that there's dis equilibrium right now tells us wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, we haven't been here forever. There was a

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Speaker 1: beginning to the universe, so it's going to have a

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Speaker 1: thermal death. Hence it must have a beginning, and that

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Speaker 1: challenges materialism before we get to Einstein. Is that a

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Speaker 1: fair way point of making that point?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's a fair way.

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Speaker 2: I think that there is another analogy which is easy

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Speaker 2: to understand for the general audience. For the general public,

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Speaker 2: it's a chimney. When you have a fire in the

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Speaker 2: chimney and you are sitting in front of the fire

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Speaker 2: in a chimney, you can observe if you stay there

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Speaker 2: for one hour, that the fire and the quantity of

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Speaker 2: food is disappearing, and the number of is disappearing. So

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Speaker 2: you can say this fire will be dead in two

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Speaker 2: hours time from.

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Speaker 3: Now, for example.

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Speaker 2: That's a conclusion which is which is quite clear. But

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Speaker 2: there is another conclusion you can drove is that if

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Speaker 2: this fire is not yet extinguished, is not yet dead,

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Speaker 2: there was somebody in the house two or three hours

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Speaker 2: ago who start the fire. It's very important because if

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Speaker 2: there was nobody to start the fire, if the fire

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Speaker 2: had been lighted in the eternity, then it would be

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Speaker 2: dead a long time ago or so. So a fire

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Speaker 2: which is still there and extinguishing and wearing out, it

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Speaker 2: needs that there is someone to start the fire. And

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Speaker 2: the universe is exactly like the fire in the chimney.

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Speaker 2: We see our universe. We can see that our universe

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Speaker 2: is there. We can see that the sun is burning.

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Speaker 2: But if the sun is burning and not yet dead,

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Speaker 2: it is because somebody has lighted it some billion years ago. Well,

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Speaker 2: so that's an analogy. And so this thermal death was

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Speaker 2: so terrible that several scientists refused to believe it. And

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Speaker 2: this was the case of a nobel price our nws

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Speaker 2: we refuse to completely. It was a noble trite in

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Speaker 2: Chimi in chemistry, and he said, I refuse to believe

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Speaker 2: in it, and we have the reference in the book.

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Speaker 2: But also Einstein was really troubled by this. But finally

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Speaker 2: Einstein said, the sucond principle of thermo dynamic is one

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Speaker 2: of the most important of all scients. So this is

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Speaker 2: the analogies are very important for it for the general

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Speaker 2: public to understand what is our universe.

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Speaker 1: That's a great analogy, and it makes two points. It

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Speaker 1: makes number one that if the fire is still burning,

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Speaker 1: it hasn't been burning for eternity. The universe hasn't always

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Speaker 1: been here. But then second raises the question where did

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Speaker 1: it come from? How did it start? And it points

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Speaker 1: towards a certain kind of beginning cause outside of the

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Speaker 1: universe to have the power to start this. Now we're

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Speaker 1: seemingly shifting in the the supernatural, which is why so

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Speaker 1: many scientists resisted this. Now, you give a number of

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Speaker 1: evidences in your book from the beginning of the universe.

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Speaker 1: One of them is what we've been talking about, the

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Speaker 1: thermal death of the universe. Another one is Big Bang

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Speaker 1: cosmology and its discovery, which also points towards the universe

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Speaker 1: having a beginning. I'd love to hear from you what

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Speaker 1: role Einstein played in this why he resisted the conclusions

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Speaker 1: of general relativity, and then why he kind of finally

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Speaker 1: came along and relented that the universe really is expanding.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a part of the story which is really

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Speaker 2: very exciting. See in fact, when Einstein discovered, invented the

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Speaker 2: discovered the relativity rearranged. Hearranged all the mathematical equations to

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Speaker 2: have a universe which was stable. But why that it

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Speaker 2: was arranged? It was humanly arranged. And some Russian mathematician

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Speaker 2: and physicist wrote him, wrote to him and says, you're wrong,

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Speaker 2: that's not the way it works. The universe is not stable.

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Speaker 2: It is expanding. And Einstein resisted that because he understood

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Speaker 2: very well that it would look the universe would look

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Speaker 2: like too much to the Bible.

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Speaker 3: So it was really.

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Speaker 2: Upsetting for so many scientists because if the universe is expanding,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like a shwing gum bubble. So you know,

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Speaker 2: if you see a young boy blowing into a bubble

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Speaker 2: or twinger. There is the beginning and there is the end.

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Speaker 2: The end we know it's the end is boom, but

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Speaker 2: at the beginning there is also a beginning. So when

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Speaker 2: something is unstable and it's expanding, So what was before,

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Speaker 2: how well will it be in the future. And the

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Speaker 2: expansion of the universe came to exactly the same conclusion

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Speaker 2: than the therm of death. And it's very funny because

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Speaker 2: it's a different science, it's completely independent, it's different, but

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Speaker 2: the conclusion was the same. So the conclusion where that

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Speaker 2: there would have been there is a necessity for a

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Speaker 2: beginning and there is the necessity for the end. And

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Speaker 2: many scientists were mentioning that many scientists in Russia mostly

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Speaker 2: and in Germany in the thirties, in the nineteen thirties

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Speaker 2: have been killed, shot, put into camps, in prison, jail,

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Speaker 2: torture because they were just.

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Speaker 3: Affirming.

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Speaker 2: They were saying that the universe had a beginning and

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Speaker 2: an end. So we have a special chapter. We have

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Speaker 2: called this chapter the noir thriller of the Big Bang.

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Speaker 2: And there is a lot of it's terrible. Poor guys,

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Speaker 2: young scientists, Russian and German. They had no money, they

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Speaker 2: had no political importance, they had no roles, they had

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Speaker 2: you know, they had nothing. They were nobody. And the

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Speaker 2: Hitler and Stalin understood very well the danger of people

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Speaker 2: like that. This is why both makes them kill so

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Speaker 2: many Some have escaped. Einstein escaped, a few other escaped

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Speaker 2: in the United States also, But I think that a

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Speaker 2: big part, probably of all the physicists of the thirties

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Speaker 2: have been killed during Stalin because of the expansion of

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Speaker 2: the universe. It's a terrible story, but it is an

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Speaker 2: indirect proof of the existence of God, because Stalin and

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Speaker 2: Hitler had adds to the danger, the danger of this

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Speaker 2: theory of the expansion of the universe.

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Speaker 1: That part of the book honestly read like a spy

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Speaker 1: thriller to me. I've studied the science for a long time,

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Speaker 1: but I was not aware of the level of persecution

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Speaker 1: in both Germany under the Nazis and under it in

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Speaker 1: Russia and beyond under the Marxists. Around the same time

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Speaker 1: in the twentieth century you wrote this. She said, the

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Speaker 1: materialists would not have unleashed such extreme violence upon scientists

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Speaker 1: who theorized the expansion in the universe and the Big

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Speaker 1: Bang had they not been convinced that these theories made

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Speaker 1: a strong case for the existence of God. Now these

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Speaker 1: are stories you go into depth in the book, of

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Speaker 1: people just being brutalized, shot in front of their families,

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Speaker 1: people being tortured thrown in prison for years and silenced,

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Speaker 1: and it seemed like there was a dozen or two

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Speaker 1: plus of scholars that were really mistreated this way. And

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Speaker 1: I want to make sure we're clear they weren't just

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Speaker 1: mistreated because of some political ideas they had. They weren't

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Speaker 1: mistreated just because the communists and Nashi regimes want to

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Speaker 1: have control of the university. You can show through the

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Speaker 1: scholarship itself there's an awareness of the cosmology they're arguing for,

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Speaker 1: and it's theological implications that led to a lot, if

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Speaker 1: not most, of their persecution. Is that true?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's true, And I want to jump on one point.

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Speaker 2: You have said you are not aware of that, but

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Speaker 2: you are not alone not to be aware of that,

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Speaker 2: and there is a reason for that. It is still

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Speaker 2: today politically uncorrect to mention and to talk or to

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Speaker 2: recount the history of the persecution of the scientists in

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Speaker 2: Russia and Germany. It is still dangerous. So what we

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Speaker 2: have done is a very original work. We have been

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Speaker 2: very friend with some Russian mathematician. They were knowing all

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Speaker 2: the stories. They gave us many of these stories, and

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Speaker 2: we are happy to have that. And I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: as today nobody has off heard this story nowhere and

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Speaker 2: nowhere because even one hundred years after the story, it

406
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Speaker 2: was in the nineteen thirties, so it's almost one hundred years.

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Speaker 2: One hundred years after the story still still well now

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Speaker 2: it's still perhaps dangerous to talk of that, at least

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Speaker 2: TV correct. So this is very strange.

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Speaker 1: It is strange, but also flips on its head kind

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Speaker 1: of the two thesis behind your book, at least in

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Speaker 1: the science section. It's number one that the science is

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Speaker 1: pointing towards intelligence, it's pointing towards a mind and a

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Speaker 1: supernatural origin. But second, science is not at odds with

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Speaker 1: faith when properly understood. And so this section, which again

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Speaker 1: I have never heard this before, it was fascinating. It

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Speaker 1: was my favorite chapter, although of course it's disturbing on

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Speaker 1: many levels.

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Speaker 2: It was so.

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Speaker 1: Intriguing I couldn't put it down all stop. My wife

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Speaker 1: I was like, do you realize some of the stuff

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Speaker 1: that happened here? Like it just it made sense to me.

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Speaker 1: But we so often hear about the stories of Galileo

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Speaker 1: and other scientists that were told were persecuted by the Church.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not going to say the church has always

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Speaker 1: handled things correctly, But you bring in far more modern

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Speaker 1: times that it was a materialist worldview that is causing

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Speaker 1: far more of the reluctance and slowing down and resistance

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Speaker 1: of science because of its beliefs. Then arguably religion ever

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Speaker 1: has If you're right about this, would you make that

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Speaker 1: case and say that's true?

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Speaker 2: Of course, of course it's nothing because Galileo, it happened

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Speaker 2: nothing to Galileo. He was, he was living in the

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Speaker 2: residence of the pope. He was a very good friend

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Speaker 2: of the pope. He was first, he was he was

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Speaker 2: a Christian, he was a Catholic. So hasn't ever been

437
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: shot or adultured a way by studying Anita, of course.

438
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: And of course not all atheists are Marxists, not all

439
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: materialists are socialists. But at the root of Marxism and

440
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: also driven by Nazism, was this commitment to a materialist worldview.

441
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: And this chapter showing how these some of these I

442
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: mean scientists, were incredibly brave. I'm reading this chapter going wow,

443
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: if I was in their position, would I be willing

444
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: to risk my life and my family and my career

445
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: for a scientific finding? I mean, it really made me

446
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: ask those questions now we're gonna shift in a little

447
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: bit to the fine tuning. But maybe give us one

448
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: example of big Bang cosmology. You walk through how it's

449
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: accepted to give the evidence for it. People can read

450
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: the book if they want to, but maybe give us

451
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: so two questions. Why does big bang cosmology, what is

452
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: it about it that points towards the universe have at a beginning?

453
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: And can you give us one example of a sie

454
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: scientific attempt to explain away the Big Bank that failed

455
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: to meet the evidence?

456
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: Well, of course, the Big Bank. It's a popular name

457
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 2: which has been given by which has been given by

458
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: an atheist. In fact, it was a cosmologist, Fred Oil,

459
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: who was a terrible atheist, and he wanted to discredit

460
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: to mock George Lemette, who was the first at the

461
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: origin of the Big Bank. So he said, just to

462
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: have fun of him, this is the man of the

463
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: Big Bank. But the word was very was so well

464
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: chosen that now everybody talks of the Big Bank. It's

465
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: very interesting to know that Fred Oil we was the

466
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: opposite of the opponent to George Lemette. At the end,

467
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: he converted to the existence of God when he has

468
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: discovered the fine tuning.

469
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: Of the universe.

470
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: So I will tell you a word of that. But

471
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: thirty years after Fridge Oil said, okay, I have understood

472
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: now I believe in God. So it was in the sixties,

473
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: thirty years after. So the expansion, the expansion of the

474
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: universe is another is another evidence for a beginning.

475
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 3: Of the universe.

476
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: Perhaps the big bond, which has happened fourteen years or

477
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: fourteen billion years ago, was not the first big bank.

478
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: Perhaps there has been a few before, and perhaps there

479
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: has been some big crunch and big bond, etc. But

480
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: very recently, I will jump in the twenty first century,

481
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: very recently, twenty years ago, in two thousand or three,

482
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: three American scientists, very important cut Ball and villin Kin

483
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: good Bog and Villainkin have discovered that if the big

484
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: bond that we know was not the first big bond,

485
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: it's possible there had been a few big bonds before,

486
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: but it's not possible to believe that there has been

487
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: an infinite series of big bomb So it doesn't matter

488
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 2: to know if the big bond that we know fourteen

489
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: billionaires was the first one, or was the number two

490
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: or three or four. It was a limited series, which

491
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: means that if the big bug of our universe was

492
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: not the first big bond, there has been necessarily a

493
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: first big bonk, and we come back, like the thermal death,

494
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: we come back at the same place.

495
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: If there is an absolute.

496
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: Biggidi, then we need a cause if we want to

497
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: keep in our you know, in our what we call

498
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: our logic, So we need a cause. But that cause

499
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: might be different of the union itself. So of course

500
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: we are not going to discuss that now. But of

501
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: course the obvious cause, we can imagine a course which

502
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: a cause which can create a universe.

503
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: Of course we call it God.

504
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: So that towads the expansion of the universe was the

505
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,959
Speaker 2: so Gold, if I may say so Gold very important

506
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: discovery showing that our universe had the beginning, but there

507
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: had been more discovery showing that God was necessary. So

508
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: there is I don't know if you want to talk.

509
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 3: Of that now.

510
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: It's a fine tuning, which is, oh I do.

511
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: Jump in Let me jump in here and just clarify

512
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: the point you made. This is so important, and then

513
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: you you're going exactly where I want to go with

514
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: fine tuning. So big bang cosmology, like the second law thermodynamics,

515
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: indicates that the universe has a beginning, and it's not eternal,

516
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: and the twentieth century in many ways, this is a

517
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 1: point that William Lane Craig and others have made. Is

518
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: kind of the story of a series of attempts to

519
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: explain a way the beginning of the universe with different

520
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: scientific models, and all of those have shown to not

521
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: account for the data and to fail for a variety

522
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: of reasons. One of them that you're pointing out, and

523
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 1: this is really important because this comes up a lot

524
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: in the conversations is that maybe there's this the Big

525
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: Bang is not an absolute beginning, but there's other big

526
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: bangs before it, and it goes back in time. Hence

527
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: we don't have a creation moment, so to speak. And

528
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: your argument is that the model by Board Gooth and Valenkan,

529
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: who get talked about many times in these conversations, would

530
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: actually argue if even if there's a series of bangs

531
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: going back, there still needs to be an absolute beginning

532
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: to the universe.

533
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. Good.

534
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: Okay, this is really important.

535
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 2: But you know that's it's it's very recent. It's twenty

536
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: years ago in the history, in the history of ideas,

537
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: what is twenty years so it's yesterday, you know. So

538
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: now we have the proof with both good and villain kin,

539
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: we have the scientific proof that there cannot be an

540
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: infinite series of big bond. It's major, it's a major discovery.

541
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 2: It's fantastic. So really now, so that really they have

542
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 2: a big problem. They know they have a problem. So

543
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: this is why they want to believe that there is

544
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: not one universe. There is many universes. So perhaps are

545
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: universe and are through beginning, but there are many universe

546
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: and multiverse. So this is the way they try to

547
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: escape to that. But it's I must say, it's very

548
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 2: it's very difficult. Today's life of materialist is very difficult.

549
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: It's very difficult, and they have many other problems to solve.

550
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 3: They have many other problems.

551
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 2: So the third problem, if we can start with it now,

552
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: it is this fantastic story, fantastic story of the fine

553
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: tuning of the universe. So now we have to make

554
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: some simple explanation for the fine tuning of the universe.

555
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: Because our universe is built on thirty numbers more or

556
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: less twenty five thirty numbers, numbers which are pure numbers.

557
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: For example, we know the speed of the light and

558
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: the speed of the light is three hundred thousand kilometer

559
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 2: perfect CAD. So we could just say, wow, it's why

560
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 2: not more or why not less? And what would happen

561
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: if the speed of light was a little more or less?

562
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: And what is fantastic is now we can answer to that,

563
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: if the speed of light was a little bit faster

564
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: or a little slower, us would not exist at all.

565
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 2: And I will give you something which is more, much

566
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: more amazing. We are spoking of the expansion of the

567
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: universe starting from a very small to very big. There

568
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: is a speed of expansion. It's boom, the speed of expansion.

569
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: And we know the speed of expansion of the universe

570
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: at the very beginning. We know all the decimals.

571
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 3: We know all the.

572
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: Decimal, including the fifteenth decimal. You imagine fifteen decimal amazing.

573
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 3: And we can know.

574
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: Today with our computers and the mathematical model. We know

575
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: that if the fifteenth decimle was one more or one less,

576
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: one point more or one point less. If it was

577
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 2: one point more, the speed of the universe would be

578
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: too fast, and there would be no planet and no staff.

579
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: There would be a delusion. And if the speed was

580
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: one less the universe would not exist because there would

581
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: be a big crutch. So it's like the universe is

582
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 2: like a huge plane. When it takes off, you have

583
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 2: to turn, you know. Goda turned to the fifteen decimal

584
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 2: of the speed of the expansion. And this is true

585
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: not only for the speed of expansion not universe, but

586
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: for all the other numbers. So I wanted to come

587
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: back to that. Fred Oil was not convinced. Fred Oil

588
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 2: was a Nobel prize. He was a very important man

589
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 2: between nineteen thirty and nineteen sixty. In the nineteen thirties,

590
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: he was the main opponent to the mat and to

591
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: all these guys for the expansion of the universe and

592
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: the Big Bank. He was the main opponent. He was

593
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: a fiery atheist, and when he discovered himself he participated

594
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: to the fine tuning. It's so crazy. The fine tuning

595
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: of the universe is so crazy. And one day in

596
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: the conference room he said, I'm going to sit with

597
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: on the side of those who are believing in the

598
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: existence of God, because now I've changed my mind. So

599
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: it changed mine not with the expansion of the universe,

600
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: but with the fine tuning of the universe. So this

601
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 2: is with a fine tuning is extremely it's incredible, so

602
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: to be really today materialism has become an irrational belief.

603
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: In fact, it's irrational. People will continue to have scientists

604
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 2: materialists because for them they see it as a condition of.

605
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: Freedom for many.

606
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: For many, the idea of God is assimilated or is

607
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: considered like a limitation of their freedom. To be free

608
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: in their mind is to have no God, no master,

609
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: no God. So if I accept God, then I have

610
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 2: I know if God exists, I must not kill, I

611
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: must not steal, I must not cheat, I must not lie.

612
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: So it's a limitation of my freedom. And for others also,

613
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: God would be a judge. Ah, you have done wrong.

614
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: You know, so many people they don't want God because

615
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: they don't want limitation of their freedom, and they.

616
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 3: Don't want a judgment.

617
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: So many people they would prefer to believe in something

618
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 2: which is quite irrational than to accept the idea of God.

619
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: So this is why it will. So we have so

620
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: many evidence today, this is why probably it will continue

621
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 2: in the same way as in the past.

622
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 3: We have more or less the large.

623
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: Number still of scientists or materialists, probably half fifty percent,

624
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 2: and and people are not going to change, at least

625
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: in the short term, because because you know, it's a

626
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: passionate question. It's not only a scientific questions of God.

627
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: It is a passionate question.

628
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: It definitely is if a personal existential question. It's not

629
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: when we can just explore in the realm of science

630
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: and move on. It has implications for the way we live,

631
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: including a story of fred O Coyle, like you do

632
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: in the book. I thought was so interesting because I

633
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: think you said it was in nineteen forty nine he

634
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 1: coined the term Big Bang to indicate the universe had

635
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: a beginning, and then he's famous for saying when he

636
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: comes to the fine tuning years later, it's almost as

637
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: if someone was monkeying with physics. It's as if there's

638
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: a mind behind this, and an intention behind this, and

639
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: a purpose behind this, is what he argued. Now, I

640
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: want to explain why you think fine tuning in particular

641
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: is such a challenge for materialism and points towards God.

642
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: But I do want to draw out for people when

643
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 1: we come to the beginning of the universe, if time, space,

644
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: and matter begin to exist, then we need a cause

645
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: that's not physical, a cause that's beginning less the cause

646
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: that's outside of space and timeless at least at the

647
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: beginning of the universe, and arguably personal because immaterial things

648
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: like numbers or laws of logic don't have causal power

649
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: really smart and really powerful. So the beginning of the universe,

650
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: it seems very plausibly points towards God, and people know

651
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: it and they see it when they reflect upon it.

652
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: Why do you think fine tuning points back on materialism

653
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: and points towards God.

654
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: So fine tuning, of course points towards they of a

655
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 2: creator God. Because when you see that the thirteen numbers

656
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: on which our universe is built thirty nine are so

657
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: fine tune, you know, it's impossible. It's like a lottery.

658
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: It's impossible to imagine that we are so lucky. So

659
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 2: what is the position today as the materialist? How do theay?

660
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: What can they answer? So, as we all know, the

661
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: answer of the materialist to the fine tuning is the multiverse.

662
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 2: They prefer to believe that there are billions, billions of universe,

663
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 2: billions of universe which are all different with different numbers,

664
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 2: with different tuning, which are not so fine tuning. So

665
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,879
Speaker 2: probably all the other universe there is no life, There

666
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: is no planet like Earth, and we are the lucky guys.

667
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 2: We are in the good universe. But if there is

668
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: or not of the universe, nobody will never know because

669
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 2: it's impossible to know. So multiverse is something we should

670
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: call like science fiction. You know, there is no arguments.

671
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: We just don't know, but it's for them. It's a

672
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 2: possibility to get out of the trap. You know, there

673
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 2: is a trap. Our universe is fine tuned. Our universe

674
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 2: has a beginning, and if you are logical, you must

675
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: say behind the universe there is an almighty mind, you know,

676
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 2: a creator. So if you want to escape that, the

677
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: only way is to say, no, I don't need God,

678
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: I just need billion and billion of other universe and

679
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: we are just by chance, we are in the lucky one.

680
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: I did a full deep dive interview with Steven Meyer

681
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 1: on the multiverse and he makes a number of points,

682
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,439
Speaker 1: and you make this in your book. That number one

683
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: what's called Arkham's razor that oftentimes, in general, we go

684
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: with the simpler explanation, then the multi layered explanation, and

685
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: one God, who is a mind that can fine tune things,

686
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: is a simple, adequate fitting explanation, whereas billions or trillions

687
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: or an infinite number of universes, is going beyond the

688
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: resources we need to give a simple explanation for what

689
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: we've discovered about the origin of the universe. So I

690
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: think that's one really important point you make. Second, you

691
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: also dry out that when it comes to multiverse, even

692
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: if there is a multiverse, it doesn't get rid of

693
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: the need for design or the need for information to

694
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: in a sense of explaining to fine tuning. So it's

695
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: like moving a car to a car factory, Well, what

696
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: explains the factory that's fine tuned to produce cars? It

697
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: still requires a level of intelligence to explain it and information,

698
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: which is the key challenge to material realism. Are there

699
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: any other scientific, big, key scientific discoveries or points that

700
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: we left out that are part of this story and

701
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: drama in the twentieth century.

702
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, there is another one which is amazing, which

703
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 2: is life. Life has appeared on Earth four billion years ago,

704
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 2: so life has appeared from matter. So it's very interesting

705
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: to see the history of ideals. You knows that in

706
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy Darwin said, well, life is not a problem

707
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: at all. Life appeared in a small pound of water

708
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: at the foot of a volcano, and there were thunders,

709
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: there were smoke, they are more clinical products. There were

710
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: waters and winds moving all that, and the first cell

711
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: has jumped out of the hot water naturally. And this

712
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: is what all the scientists believed between eighteen seventeen when

713
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,240
Speaker 2: Darwin said that, to nineteen fifties. For almost one century,

714
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 2: everybody believes that. It's so true that in the nineteen

715
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: fifties in the United States there were six very large

716
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 2: laboratories which we're working on the module soup prebited soup,

717
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: you know, the soup where you have all these chemicals

718
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 2: and the rain and the thunder and electricity, and to

719
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: see if we can make life appear from this primitive soup.

720
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 2: And a very well known laboratory was Miller, Robert Miller,

721
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: I think it was popular. He was in Chicago in

722
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties and he was making a lot of

723
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: chemical experimentation. But all these laboratories have closed, and they

724
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: are closed now. And why are they closed. Why did

725
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 2: the laboratory of Miller's top his experiment. It is because

726
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: in the middle of the fifties, we have discovered DNA,

727
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 2: RNA ribosome. We have discovered it's an American scientist, Creek

728
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: mostly who discovered that. And they have discovered that in

729
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: the smallest cell they are computers languages languages like in computers.

730
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: So a cell is a fantastic is something fantastic. So

731
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: when someone has understood what is really a cell, the

732
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 2: density of information in the smaller cell is billion time

733
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 2: more dense than in an iPhone.

734
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 3: You imagine that.

735
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: The language and density of information the chips which are

736
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 2: in a cell are billion times more complicated than.

737
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 3: The one of our computers. I foll night back.

738
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 2: So when people have discovered the complexity of DNA and

739
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: a ribosome, which are computers too, king together and they

740
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 2: have stopped because there is no chance.

741
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 3: There is no chance.

742
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: That life could appear in a small pound of water,

743
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: So nobody believes that anymore. So there is a mystery

744
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: for life.

745
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 3: Personally, I believe.

746
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: That there is a special fine tuning of the universe

747
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: which has been able to make the first self. But

748
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: it is something which is so improbable, so improbable, so

749
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 2: highly improbable, that again it's like a fine tuning, It

750
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 2: requires a supermind. So I think that apparishion of life

751
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: on Earth is a very strong evidence of the existence

752
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: of a creator God, and I would like to give

753
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: up a citation of a Nobel prize.

754
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 3: And at least.

755
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: If your audience, people listening to us, want to see

756
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: its world, wa l d a Nobel Prize of medsid

757
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: I think in the nineteen seventies, he said, I make

758
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 2: it short, there is two possibility for the apparition of life.

759
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: One is creation by God and the other one is

760
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: a spontaneous generation. Then he had spontaneous generation. We know

761
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: now it's impossible, So what is left is a creation

762
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: by God. And he continues and say, personally, I have

763
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:45,439
Speaker 2: decided I will never believe in God. Philosophically I can't

764
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: accept that, so he says, I will. I prefer to

765
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 2: believe in something which I know impossible, which is the

766
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 2: spontaneous generation of life. I think it's wonderful because it's

767
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 2: very it's very frank. In fact, what George Wold was

768
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: he said, that's the East and the Nobel Price. He says,

769
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 2: I prefer to believe it's a spontaneous generation of life

770
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 2: because I don't want to believe in God because it's

771
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: disturbing my life. Well, that's it, isn't it.

772
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 3: Fantastic.

773
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: You have a chapter in your book with quote after

774
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 1: quote from leading scholars talking about what they believe why

775
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: they believe it. So this isn't just you importing saying

776
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 1: here's the motivations. There's quite a few quotes of people

777
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: saying things conceding why they believe one thing and don't

778
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: believe another. Now, at this point, one of the objections

779
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: I hear is people say something like Michelle, this is

780
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: an argument from ignorance. In other words, just because we

781
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 1: can't explain the beginning of the universe or the fine

782
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,280
Speaker 1: tuning or the origin of life, it's a mystery. Scient

783
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:05,439
Speaker 1: typically speaking doesn't mean there's a god. To say there's

784
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: a god is a science stopper. So why isn't this

785
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 1: an argument from ignorance? And why do you think it's

786
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:12,800
Speaker 1: not a science stopper?

787
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: M Yes, the matter realit the love they love very much,

788
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 2: and they use a lot this idea of the god

789
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 2: of the gap as they like it, and say, you

790
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 2: are just pure idiot, all the Christians, you are idiots

791
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 2: because when you don't have an explanation, you say it's God.

792
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 2: But this is not true at all. It's very simple,

793
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 2: it's not true, because in fact, the problem is not

794
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 2: that way. The problem is now, let's give it the

795
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: right way. It should be God exists or it does

796
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 2: not exist. It's two possibilities. We have two possibilities. God

797
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 2: exists he has created the world, or God does not

798
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 2: exist and the world exists by itself.

799
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 3: So can we.

800
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 2: Choose between these two theory And the answer is yes,

801
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 2: we can choose because the theory that God does not exist,

802
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 2: this theory has implication. If God does not exist, then

803
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:21,240
Speaker 2: then our universe cannot have a beginning. Then our universe

804
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 2: has no reason to be fine to and then life

805
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 2: must appear from it, not matter. We agree on that,

806
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 2: and that's what we call implication of the theory. And

807
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 2: this implication when we look into the world, they are fourth.

808
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 3: It's not true that our.

809
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 2: Universe has no absolute beginning. So perhaps we can discuss.

810
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 2: But if you are looking at the scale the two

811
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: theories God exists and God does not exist, which are

812
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 2: two possible theory, the theory God does not exist today

813
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 2: is extremely weak. It has no evidence, no argument. When

814
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 2: the scale the other side of the scale, God exists

815
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: is extremely strong. You know, because it's almost certain that

816
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: our universe had an absolute beginning. It is almost certain

817
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: that our universe is fine tune and there is no

818
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 2: other universe, And it's almost certain that the apparition of

819
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 2: life is a fantastic mystery, which requires at least a

820
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 2: fantastic fine tuning, which is a supermind. So it's it's

821
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: that is the right way. We have to choose between

822
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 2: two possible theory and two days. The theory that God

823
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: does not exist is the theory which, in my opinion

824
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 2: and the opinion of many people, has become recently. Recently, Yes,

825
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 2: has become now an irrational behief.

826
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: Michelle. The evidence is as strong as you indicate, an

827
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: almost certainly the universe had a beginning. Why would so

828
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: many scientists resist this?

829
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 2: Yes, for some reasons that we have already mentioned, and

830
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: for some others. The first reason is that for many people,

831
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: they believe that the existence of God is for them

832
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 2: the limitation.

833
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 3: To their freedom, because.

834
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 2: They have in mind that if they believe in God,

835
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 2: many things will be forbidden, like you won't steal, you

836
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 2: won't cheat your wife, you won't lie, you won't steal

837
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 2: the so it's a limitation of freedom. And also they

838
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,800
Speaker 2: don't like the ideas that God could be a judge

839
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 2: would tell them you did wrong. And there is another

840
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: reason on top of this one is that when we

841
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 2: have a mental hue of the universe, it is political, philosophical,

842
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 2: or religion view, it is very difficult to change what

843
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 2: we call padim very difficult to change. And it's not

844
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 2: only difficult, but it's extremely painful. Have in mind what

845
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 2: happened to the communist, the poor communist citizen when they

846
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 2: realized in nineteen ninety then when all the communist systems

847
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 2: fall apart and we discovered that so many people were

848
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 2: in jail, had been killed, it was horrible, and they

849
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 2: were poor. It was such a shock for so many communists.

850
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 2: You know, it was really painful. So can you say

851
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,720
Speaker 2: in one minute, I'm not communist anymore because I've realized

852
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: it's a lot of suffering. There is a lot of suffering.

853
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: So it's difficult to change the mind. This is why

854
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 2: I think that all this scientific discovery, they will have

855
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 2: an impact on the belief, but it will take you know,

856
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 2: one or two generations.

857
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: That's really fair. You point out in the book that

858
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: even some of the science itself is new, relatively speaking,

859
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: up to the last twenty years, some of the discoveries

860
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: that have made that just further and further point towards

861
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: a beginning. Last question for you, since really the book

862
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: by Justin Brierley in the UK, on the Surprising Rebirth

863
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: of Belief in God, there's been a lot of conversation

864
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: about how belief in God is coming back. The God

865
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: conversation has shifted, and I've seen that take place in

866
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: the US, and of course Justin Briley is attesting to

867
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: that in the UK. Do you see that in France

868
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: and beyond? Do you interpret your book as a sign

869
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: that this conversation is shifting or do you feel more

870
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: like a prophet just kind of shouting into the wind

871
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 1: trying to get people change, but not seeing that shift

872
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: taking place.

873
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 2: There is absolutely set to your shift, and I would

874
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 2: say that one sign of the shift is the success

875
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 2: of our book, which was completely unexpected by it completely

876
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 2: unexpected to sell four hundred and fifty thousand books about

877
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 2: the evidence scientific evidence of the existence of God is

878
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 2: just uncredible. Why did that happen? It happens partly perhaps

879
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 2: the book is good, I hope so, of course, But

880
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 2: there is another reason. There is a thirst. There is

881
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 2: a real anger, a real anger to know, because the

882
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: world is too empty today and so desperate in some ways.

883
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 2: And it's an important question because if God does not exist,

884
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 2: nothing is important. I mean, we are like big mosquitos,

885
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: you and me. We are not different from mosquitoes, because

886
00:58:54,480 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 2: a mosquito is a peculiar arrangement of atoms and and particles.

887
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 2: So if you crash a mosquitoes, if you kill a mosquitoes,

888
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 2: it's just particles who are going to go away and

889
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: make something different. But we are the same, more larger,

890
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:17,439
Speaker 2: more intelligent. But we are just particles. So if God

891
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 2: does not exist, we are nothing. We are nothing, and

892
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 2: nothing is important. The only thing we can do is

893
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 2: to eat, drink and dance, and this is what we

894
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 2: are doing since perhaps sixty years probably eat, drink and dance,

895
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 2: and people are fed up of that.

896
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 3: We had the end of drinking.

897
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 2: Because after drinking and eating and drinking is drug, of course,

898
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: and it's sex and then and then where is happiness?

899
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 2: So I think we had the end. We are at

900
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 2: the end of a system which is born in the

901
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 2: beginning of the twentieth centuries, which has flourished in the

902
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties with peace and love, which when in fact

903
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 2: only laziness and sex. To be true to say the truth,

904
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: and all that has not brought happiness to people. It

905
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 2: has not brought freedom either. No freedom, no happiness. So

906
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 2: people now they say, all this is wrong. Now we

907
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 2: must look if there is something or if there is nothing.

908
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 3: So our book.

909
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 2: This for everybody of the general public who is wanting

910
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 2: to know if there is something or nothing, if we

911
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 2: are nothing or if we are something by ourselves. Our

912
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 2: book is trying to respond to this question. This is

913
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 2: why I'm convinced there is the beginning of a shift.

914
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: That's so fascinating to hear. Your book is huge. It's

915
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: hundreds of pages, over five hundred pages, but it's very readable.

916
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: We probably covered a third of it with a scientific eviance.

917
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: You walk to philosophical argumentation, you give a historical case,

918
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: which is a conversation for another time, for the Gospels,

919
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: the resurrection of Jesus. And because I teach apologetics, there's

920
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 1: much of what I read in your book. I was like,

921
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: I know this argument, and I'm familiar with this person.

922
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: But there were a number of sections, including the chapter

923
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 1: before about the persecution of the scientists, that was novel

924
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 1: there's a chapter in the book in which you talk

925
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 1: about certain out of reach truths in the Hebrew Bible

926
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: that described the cosmos and humanity that now seem common sense,

927
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: but in their time were totally radical and different from

928
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: any other teachings of other faiths at the time. But

929
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: if people want to know what those are, they're going

930
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: to have to get the book. It's called God, The Science,

931
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: the Evidence, the Dawn of a Revolution. Your book in

932
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: this conversation has blown me away, thoroughly enjoyed, and I

933
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: hope people will pick it up. Write a review for you,

934
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: skeptic or believer. I think they'll enjoy it. They'll be

935
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: challenged to think about the purpose of the universe. And folks,

936
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 1: while you are here, make sure you hit subscribe. We're

937
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,439
Speaker 1: going to keep talking about the scientific evidence for God.

938
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 1: We have some other conversations coming up on these topics

939
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: and more so make sure you hit subscribe. And we

940
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: actually have in our Masters and Apologetics program, we do

941
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 1: full classes. We've been going to depth on a lot

942
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: of the science that Michelle is talking about today. We

943
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 1: would love to have you join us in person or

944
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: fully distance, and our Apologetic program information is below. One

945
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: last thing. If you're like I want to learn more

946
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: of it, I'm not quite ready for a master's program.

947
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 1: We have totally updated our certificate program with some leading

948
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: experts in the world, where we'll walk you through lectures

949
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 1: and just how to get a certificate showing that you

950
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 1: have learning and apologetics. There's a big discount below for

951
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: my YouTube subscribers and listeners to the audio podcast. Michelle.

952
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 1: Thanks for having a fascinating book, and thanks for joining me.

953
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sean, Thank you by much. It's been my pleasure.

954
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

955
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 1: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

956
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Speaker 1: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge

957
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Speaker 1: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

958
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Speaker 1: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

959
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 1: review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show,

960
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

961
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 1: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

962
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 1: spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more.

963
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,880
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964
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 1: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

965
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: you when the next episode drops