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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Well, good morning. For those of you who don't know me,

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Speaker 2: my name is Sean mcdale. Not only does my family

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Speaker 2: call the Shoreline our home church, but I get to

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Speaker 2: teach now and then as a part of the pastoral

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Speaker 2: teaching staff.

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Speaker 1: Thank you one person appreciates that.

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Speaker 2: With that said and the enthusiasm in the room, I

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Speaker 2: do want to start with a question. And I'm curious

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Speaker 2: how many of you recognize the name Nabil Kureshi by

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Speaker 2: sho hands. Okay, good, maybe a dozen or two of

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Speaker 2: you do so. Nabil was a former Muslim challenged by

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Speaker 2: a Christian apologist to consider the evidence for Christianity, even

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Speaker 2: though it cost him a lot with his family, ended

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Speaker 2: up becoming a Christian three master's degrees, got his medical doctorate,

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Speaker 2: was working on his PhD at Oxford, New York Times

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Speaker 2: best selling author Amazing Apologists. Tragically died a decade ago

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Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen because of stomach cancer.

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Speaker 1: I remember when this happened and I asked my dad.

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Speaker 2: At that time was in his mid to late seventies,

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Speaker 2: moving towards the end of his career in ministry. I said, Dad,

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Speaker 2: why do you think God allowed no Bil to die?

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Speaker 1: Never forget what he said.

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Speaker 2: He looked at me, he goes, son, I don't know

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Speaker 2: the answer to that, but why wouldn't he take me?

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Speaker 2: Humanly speaking, that's a very natural response. How would God

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Speaker 2: protect one of his servants but not the other? In

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Speaker 2: many ways, this question is a part of the bigger

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Speaker 2: question of the problem of evil and.

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Speaker 1: Suffering in the world.

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Speaker 2: Personal question for many of us here, why did God

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Speaker 2: allow me to lose my job? Why did God allow

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Speaker 2: my family or friend to die of cancer? Where is

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Speaker 2: God when I hurt? I'm not a Christian because I

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Speaker 2: have a simple answer for that question. I'm a Christian

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Speaker 2: in part because God invites that question. He's big enough

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Speaker 2: for that question, and I think Christiane offers the most satisfying, emotional, existential,

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Speaker 2: and intellectual response to the problem of suffering an evil.

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Speaker 1: We've been working through the Book of Acts.

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Speaker 2: When you get to Acts, chapter twelve, it's interesting because

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Speaker 2: God spares Peter, and everybody wants to talk about that miracle,

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Speaker 2: but he let James die.

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Speaker 1: Why protect one but not the other?

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Speaker 2: I think opening up this chapter and wrestling with this

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Speaker 2: question can help us be better witnesses for the Gospel today.

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Speaker 2: So let's stand if you're able and listen to Acts

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Speaker 2: chapter twelve together. It's almost been three years where I

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Speaker 2: went through for about three months the worst physical pain

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Speaker 2: I've ever been through. It was probably three or four

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Speaker 2: hours a day. I just kind of lay on my back,

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Speaker 2: taking a breath at a time. It hurts so bad,

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Speaker 2: and I knew I wasn't going to die. I had

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Speaker 2: two surgeries. It was not a fatal kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Did you have that kind of experience? Did it make

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Speaker 2: you doubt your faith at all?

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Speaker 3: I didn't have doubts. What I did. What I did

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Speaker 3: doubt was that God. I knew God loved me, but

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what his larger program was, and it

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Speaker 3: could well be that He was allowing this to happen

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Speaker 3: to me to accomplish a greater good.

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Speaker 2: Gpmilon, you are considered one of the most influential living

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Speaker 2: philosophers today, especially your work in philosophy of mind. By

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Speaker 2: my standard and an objective one, you would be one

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Speaker 2: of the most influential apologists of the past three or

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Speaker 2: four decades. You've also been through a lot of physical

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Speaker 2: pain and hurt, and you're at a unique place in

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Speaker 2: your life and ministry. Thanks for me willing to sit

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Speaker 2: down with me and just talk about what you're up

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Speaker 2: to about your life journey and kind of your advice

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Speaker 2: and reflections on the ministry and apologetics today.

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Speaker 3: Well, Sean, I love and respect you so much. We've

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Speaker 3: been buddies in the war and it's a privilege to

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Speaker 3: be with you in just a chat. Thanks for inviting

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Speaker 3: me on.

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Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, it's a treat for me.

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Speaker 2: You know, I went through a period of doubts and

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Speaker 2: a period of questioning I do. And I told my

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Speaker 2: dad that I was not sure that I was convinced

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Speaker 2: Christianity was true, and even though my dad was and

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Speaker 2: still is, the great Josh McDowell, I needed somebody else

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Speaker 2: to weigh into it and honestly move beyond popular apologetics

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Speaker 2: to more academic I remember knocking on your door this

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Speaker 2: is I don't know in ninety four, nine, five, ninety six,

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Speaker 2: bugging you a few times. You're like, I got to

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Speaker 2: get some work done and get out of here.

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Speaker 4: I'm kidding.

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Speaker 2: You're patient with me and really formative in my life.

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Speaker 2: So that's an honor that you'd come on. We're going

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Speaker 2: to get to what you're doing today. Some of the

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Speaker 2: surgeries you've been through. You've been very public and honest

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Speaker 2: with some of the struggles. Let's go all the way back.

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Speaker 2: I suspect there's a lot of people that don't even

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Speaker 2: know your journey to the faith. So tell us your

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Speaker 2: story of how and why you became a Christian.

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Speaker 3: Well. I was born in Kansas City and moved to

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Speaker 3: a suburb when I was two, and I grew up

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Speaker 3: through high school attending a kind of mayonnaise Methodist church.

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Speaker 3: Jesus was basically a white Midwestern Chiefs fan, but I

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Speaker 3: never it was a liberal church, but nobody really knew it.

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Speaker 3: And so I heard about, you know, do right and

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Speaker 3: do good, and Jesus tells us to care about the poor.

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Speaker 3: I never heard the gospel, and to be honest, it

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Speaker 3: was really boring. I went to college to nineteen seventy

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Speaker 3: seventy six, rather graduated in seventy to do a major

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Speaker 3: in physical chemistry, and I actually ended up getting a

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Speaker 3: full scholarship to the University of Colorado to do a

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Speaker 3: PhD in nuclear chemistry. But something happened my junior year

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Speaker 3: and there was some crew people for christ Yes who

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Speaker 3: came to my fraternity house and they presented evidence that

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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ was the son of God who performed miracles

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Speaker 3: and died for our sins rose from the dead. I

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Speaker 3: had never thought that evidence had any I thought, you

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Speaker 3: just you know, you inherited it from your family and

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Speaker 3: believed it, just believed it on with no basis. Well,

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Speaker 3: I was shocked, John, and it was my junior year.

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Speaker 3: I met with this staff member. He gave me some

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Speaker 3: books to read on apologetics, and I was I came

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Speaker 3: to the conclusion that it was highly likely this was true.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't certain. I don't think you can be epistemologically,

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Speaker 3: certain can psychologically. But I went up to my room

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Speaker 3: in November of nineteen sixty eight and said, Lord Jesus,

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Speaker 3: I've been pulling for you, but I just wasn't sure

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Speaker 3: you were there, and I want you to forgive me

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Speaker 3: for my saying. I prayed the Singer's prayer, and dude,

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Speaker 3: I became a radical. I got up on free speech platforms.

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Speaker 3: I would been a Christian three months and there was

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Speaker 3: a bunch of black panthers that came from Kansas City

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Speaker 3: and went to the student union, two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 3: students having lunch and studying he gets up on this

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Speaker 3: chair and he's got this box with him with the microphone.

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Speaker 3: He starts yelling and cussing and criticizing the country, and

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Speaker 3: when some of them is legitimate, but I said, I swear.

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Speaker 3: I said to myself, there's a son of the Living

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Speaker 3: God in this room. It's me, and I'm going to

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Speaker 3: go up there and take the mic from him and

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Speaker 3: preach the gospel. So I went up and said, hey,

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Speaker 3: can I have that mic? Well, he didn't know what

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Speaker 3: he was doing, so he gave it to me, and

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Speaker 3: I started saying, I know that what you're saying is

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Speaker 3: out of truth and frustration, but there's a deeper issue.

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Speaker 3: And I gave him my testimony to this guy and

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Speaker 3: told him the gospel. And I would do stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: And so when I graduated, I instead of the Fellowship,

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Speaker 3: I joined Campus Crusade and went to Colorado, oddly enough

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Speaker 3: for two years and then opened the ministry and from

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Speaker 3: from seventy two to seventy five. It is so cold

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Speaker 3: up there. One day I got out of bed and

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Speaker 3: I tripped and I broke my pajamas. It was unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: But by seventy five I wanted to go to seminary.

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Speaker 3: So I went to Dallas Seminary seventy five to seventy nine,

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Speaker 3: met my wife, who was on Crusade staff there. We

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Speaker 3: got married in seventy seven and.

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Speaker 4: Scott oh Ray right were with Scott.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in fact, his team and my team played for

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Speaker 3: the Intermural championship, and he guarded me and we were

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Speaker 3: It was tied with about five seconds left. This is

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Speaker 3: no kidding, and I faked him and I drove to

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Speaker 3: the bucket and they had a six to ten forward

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Speaker 3: center and he came over and tried to block my

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Speaker 3: shot and knocked me down. So I had two free

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Speaker 3: throws and I sunk those babies and we beat them

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Speaker 3: by two points.

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Speaker 2: You know, Scott hasn't told me that much. I now

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Speaker 2: understand why. I'll ask him at some place do you.

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Speaker 3: Think you'll enjoy that? But then from seventy to I

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Speaker 3: guess it was about seventy five we went out Hope,

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Speaker 3: but I no seventy I got out of Dallas seventy nine,

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Speaker 3: so then we went out and taught at the International

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Speaker 3: School of Theology in Arrow hit Springs, and I did

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Speaker 3: my MA during that time at uc riverside of my

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Speaker 3: PhD under Dallas Willer at SC and I've I've been

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Speaker 3: teaching ever since a couple of different place, a couple

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Speaker 3: of secular schools, but then I've been at Biola working

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Speaker 3: with the Apologetics and the Philosophy program since nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 3: so that is thirty six years ago. I have two

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Speaker 3: daughters that are in the early forties, five grandchildren. They

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Speaker 3: live close and we have a really close family.

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Speaker 2: So what was the shift to go from studying chemistry

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Speaker 2: to decide you want to study the philosophy of mind

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Speaker 2: in particular.

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Speaker 3: Well, there were a lot of Christians that were doing

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Speaker 3: their work about the existence of God or the reliability

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Speaker 3: of the New Testament, and I can do that. I've

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Speaker 3: done my work in that. But I began to read

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Speaker 3: some books and they were written by Christians. One was

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Speaker 3: a Stanford professor, Richard bub and another British scholar a D. M. Macais,

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Speaker 3: a psychiatrist, and they were saying that the idea of

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Speaker 3: the soul, that is an ancient Greek notion that the

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Speaker 3: Bible never teaches. When it uses the word soul, it's

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Speaker 3: simply talking about a way the brain can function soulishly.

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Speaker 3: We can relate to people and so on. I didn't

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Speaker 3: believe that, and so I began to do study and

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Speaker 3: from that point on that has been my area of specialty.

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Speaker 3: I'm an area confidence in philosophy of science and metaphysics.

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Speaker 3: But I think I was trying to fill a hole

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Speaker 3: that are soldiers. There was a place that wasn't filled,

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Speaker 3: and I wanted to step up and see what I

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Speaker 3: could do to help.

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Speaker 2: So is that the kind of advice you would give

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Speaker 2: to young apologists or young thinkers or young Christians today?

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Speaker 2: Kind of ask the question, where's their need? And can

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Speaker 2: I fill it?

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Speaker 4: Is that the case? And what other advice would you

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Speaker 4: give to you?

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Speaker 3: I think the first thing I would ask is what

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Speaker 3: are the passions of my heart? You know, love God

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Speaker 3: and do what you please, Augustine said, And I recommend

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Speaker 3: this only if a person is reasonably dedicated to Jesus.

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Speaker 3: This isn't a game a hobby. They're serious about their

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Speaker 3: faith and they want to make a difference, but they

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Speaker 3: want to know the Lord better the rest of their lives. Well,

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Speaker 3: I would just ask the Lord to give you this.

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Speaker 3: Help you create some desires that fit the person you are,

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Speaker 3: because we all might have Some people would be interested

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Speaker 3: in Bible and science and others and ethical issues. So

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Speaker 3: what you want to do is to ask, first, where's

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Speaker 3: my what do I what do I drift toward? Want

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Speaker 3: to go to a bookstore, look at Amazon? And I

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Speaker 3: think that if you follow those passions, you'll stick it

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Speaker 3: out the long haul. But the second question then is

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Speaker 3: if my passions are somewhat general, where do we need

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Speaker 3: people to fill the gap, Like we don't have very

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Speaker 3: many people working in political philosophy and philosophy of law

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Speaker 3: and when we could use some help there, So that

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Speaker 3: would be a good place for apologists that are coming

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Speaker 3: up to go into those But you have to also

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Speaker 3: have a passion and those would be some things like that.

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Speaker 3: There is a third thing, And in our philosophy program,

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Speaker 3: we consider ourselves a movement, not a department, and we

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Speaker 3: use a move we use movement language. And our goal

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Speaker 3: is to make the name of Jesus famous and respected

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Speaker 3: and help fulfill the Great Commission by spreading four values

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Speaker 3: through writing, teaching, speaking, however podcasts. The first one is

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Speaker 3: to develop a rigorous philosophical Christian mind that it respects

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Speaker 3: the inherity of Scripture. Secondly, to develop a very tender,

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Speaker 3: loving and warm heart towards Jesus and to fall in

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Speaker 3: love with him and want and want to be like him.

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Speaker 3: And then the third is that we're activists. We don't

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Speaker 3: just sit and write articles, but we want to get

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Speaker 3: out there, push back on the culture. We want to

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Speaker 3: strengthen our brothers and sisters. And the fourth one is

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Speaker 3: that that we're a community and we're not. Don't we're not.

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Speaker 3: It's not all about me. We don't tell people our grades.

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Speaker 3: After you, and if you see students that are hurting,

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Speaker 3: reach out to them and see if you can help

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Speaker 3: them get up to speed. We pull for other programs

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Speaker 3: around the country. So those were some of the things

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Speaker 3: that that I think are values, and I would just

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Speaker 3: say to people, whatever you do, this is this is

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Speaker 3: about Jesus Christ and his kingdom, and it is it

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Speaker 3: is also about you, because we'll get rewards for what

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Speaker 3: we do. And we're told in Timothy that we are

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Speaker 3: to respect the elders who labor among us. Well, what

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Speaker 3: are they supposed to do it withn't me? It was Jesus,

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Speaker 3: you know, don't respect me. It's me, It's I and Jesus.

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Speaker 3: The Bible says we call labor. But you gotta stay cald.

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Speaker 3: You have to stay in love with him. Don't don't

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Speaker 3: lose that first love. Keep buying ways to cultivate you.

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Speaker 2: And I had breakfast I think it was nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: nine somewhere in your Belinda, you showed up with a

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Speaker 2: Talbot sweatshirt on. And if you forgot this, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: bother me for one second. I was doing to help

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Speaker 2: my dad update his book, The Resurrection Factor. But you

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Speaker 2: also talk to me about the Talbot program. And the

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Speaker 2: next year I started, and I said this multiple times

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Speaker 2: that actually my wife is one and pointed this out.

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Speaker 2: She said, two times in my life she's seen the

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Speaker 2: most growth. And I know my wife going back to

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Speaker 2: third grade. Oh no, wow, that's the seventh story for

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Speaker 2: another time.

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Speaker 4: She said.

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Speaker 2: During the Talbot ma philosophy and theology, my confidence, my

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Speaker 2: sense of a movement and purpose blossomed. And then a

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Speaker 2: few years ago when I went there's some significant pain

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Speaker 2: and suffering for a season, God just softened my.

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Speaker 4: Heart and shaped me.

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Speaker 2: And we're going to come to the way some of

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Speaker 2: the suffering and pain and her you've been through and

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Speaker 2: how that's shaped you really importantly. But I do want

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Speaker 2: to ask a question from before? You said in the

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Speaker 2: area of philosophy. An area would be philosophy of law,

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Speaker 2: and you mentioned one other I sent out a tweet

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Speaker 2: and political philosophy. I sent out a tweet slash x

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Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, and I was trying to think

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Speaker 2: of areas. I said, apologists and Christian thinkers, here's some

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Speaker 2: areas I'd love to see.

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Speaker 4: People lean into.

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Speaker 3: What were they?

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Speaker 4: And so good? Question? One was ai, Second was a

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Speaker 4: theology of the body, which I.

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Speaker 3: That's a huge topic, good stuff.

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Speaker 2: Third was Islam that's only going to grow and increase.

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Speaker 2: And fourth after life apologetics. Yes, and so I want

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Speaker 2: to circle back to this also you near death, experiences,

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Speaker 2: death that experiences, visions, dreams, et cetera that are happening today. Yes,

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Speaker 2: Well would you add any to that? What did you

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Speaker 2: kind of look at the landscape now of I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I mean just the next two, five, ten, twenty years.

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Speaker 2: What are some areas? Because I asked Garry how Musch

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Speaker 2: and the resurrection is kind of like we've done most

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Speaker 2: of the work. We need a nuance certain things, but

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Speaker 2: we've done a lot of the work there. What areas

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Speaker 2: would you encourage young Christians to consider as well.

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Speaker 3: Well. I think when I used to go on campus

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Speaker 3: decades ago and give an evangelistic talk, people would raise

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Speaker 3: their hand and say, well, I don't think what you're

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Speaker 3: saying is true. I don't agree with that, but the

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Speaker 3: point is that they recognized that I was making truth claims.

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Speaker 3: It shifted, I would say in the eighties where people

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Speaker 3: would say things like well, I'm offended by what you're saying,

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Speaker 3: and my response was always have you tried therapy? Because

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Speaker 3: whether you're offended or not, the issue is if I

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Speaker 3: may say honestly whether what I'm saying is true, but

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Speaker 3: you've got to convince. So what I would encourage people

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Speaker 3: would be to convince people that truth matters and say

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Speaker 3: a little word about what truth is. It's a correspondence

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Speaker 3: between our thoughts and so on in reality. If we

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Speaker 3: think about reality the way it is, then our thought

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Speaker 3: is true. And I think I would learn some just

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Speaker 3: basic epistemology in Bill Griggs in my book Philosophical Foundations

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Speaker 3: for Christian Worldview, there's a whole section on epistemology. And

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Speaker 3: there's one thing people need to learn, and that's the

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Speaker 3: difference between particularism and methodism. That's not a denomination. It's

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Speaker 3: a way of approaching a pistemology. And I won't go

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Speaker 3: into detail on it now, but I will say that

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Speaker 3: that has been one of the single most important things

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Speaker 3: to me. The basic idea is that if you're a particularist,

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Speaker 3: then you can know things without having to know how

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Speaker 3: you know them. You can start Look, I know that

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Speaker 3: I had breakfast this morning, but I might not know

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Speaker 3: how I do now, but I still know it. The

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Speaker 3: methodist says, no, you can't know something unless you can

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Speaker 3: say how you know it. And that's true in some areas,

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Speaker 3: but not as a general epistemology. And the problem is

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Speaker 3: that if that's true, then they would have to know

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Speaker 3: how they know. Their criterion for knowledge is a correct one,

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Speaker 3: and I have to know how that was, to know

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Speaker 3: how that was, to know how that was. And it

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Speaker 3: leads to an infinite regress. And the skeptic who says

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Speaker 3: we can't know anything has got the methodist, and the

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Speaker 3: particularist says, I've gone it before I ever started this

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Speaker 3: feel of philosophy. I came in and I know, and

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Speaker 3: I know some things. Two and who's four blah, blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah. And the burden of proof is on the

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Speaker 3: skeptic to convince me I don't know things. It isn't

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Speaker 3: on me to convince him that he does. Because if

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Speaker 3: the skeptic says we can't know anything, he cannot give

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Speaker 3: a reasoned, principled argument for skepticism. Because once he does that,

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Speaker 3: then I can say, well, do you know that that's

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Speaker 3: a good reason for skepticism. I mean it might not be,

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Speaker 3: do you know it is? And he can't answer the question,

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Speaker 3: so he ends up just asserting skepticism. Well, I'm just

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Speaker 3: claiming this without any reason at all. It's a pretty

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Speaker 3: embarrassing place to be. But that issue is something I

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Speaker 3: would really encourage people to study.

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Speaker 2: I've been meaning to write blogg or do video on

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Speaker 2: what I consider the most important training appaulists and thinkers

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Speaker 2: can get, and that would be in philosophy, because the

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Speaker 2: distinction you made is only one of many. In your

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Speaker 2: book Love God with your Mind. You and I had

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Speaker 2: you nineteen ninety eight for apologetics, and you talked about

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Speaker 2: the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions.

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Speaker 4: That is such a.

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Speaker 2: Huge how we're full of distinction and so when people argue, well,

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Speaker 2: we shouldn't be surprised that we're going to fine tune

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Speaker 2: in universe, fine tuned universe, because we couldn't find ourselves

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Speaker 2: anywhere else. They're confusing necessary and sufficient conditions. The point

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Speaker 2: that you just made, Like I remember in class, you're like,

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Speaker 2: there's four or five different ways the word is can mean.

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Speaker 2: And this is in the nineties, not long after Clintons,

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Speaker 2: So everybody was laughing about it than about that point.

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Speaker 2: But I realized that is of identity, the is of

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Speaker 2: accidental predication, that is of constitution. Knowing these distincts avoid

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Speaker 2: silly errors. Like I just was reading this morning a

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Speaker 2: leading thinker of a church. I won't mention. It's like

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Speaker 2: Christians say, God, you know, the Father's God. Christians say

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Speaker 2: the Son is God. Was Jesus praying to himself. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: if you just would understand what we mean, you could

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Speaker 2: avoid these mistakes. So this point about methodism versus particularism.

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Speaker 2: In the moral argument, for example, this is where Bill

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Speaker 2: Craig is off and said, if somebody doesn't know that

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Speaker 2: torturing a child for fun or adult entertainment is wrong,

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Speaker 2: that person doesn't need an argument, They need a therapist.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 4: Why because we know it, we don't need a method.

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Speaker 3: We know certainly, just like that, we may not know

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Speaker 3: how we know it, but we know it, but we

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Speaker 3: know it.

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Speaker 2: And even like that, truth is important. Why is truth important?

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Speaker 2: An atheist can only give a a pragmatic, utilitarian value

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Speaker 2: of truth. But we know truth is important. It's axiomatic,

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Speaker 2: it is. But that only makes sense if there's a truth. Giter,

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Speaker 2: I appreciate someone who knows this, but I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: point out the ways this philosophical training. So i'd recommend

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Speaker 2: I'm going to throw some of your books out there

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Speaker 2: for people, but your book, and I'm going to butcher

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Speaker 2: the title I think it was with IVP with Gary

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Speaker 2: deuiz on philosophy made slightly less difficult.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that close.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I would recommend that for people. Hit pause, read

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Speaker 2: that book and come back to make the distinctions that

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Speaker 2: you're talking about now before we keep going. I'm curious

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Speaker 2: in the late sixties and someone gave you apologetics books.

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Speaker 2: In the back of my mind, I'm thinking they didn't

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Speaker 2: give you my dad's books because evidence came out in

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Speaker 2: seventy two. Yeah, and more than Carpenter's seventy seven, was

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Speaker 2: it mere Christianity?

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Speaker 4: And who moved the stone? Like what apologetics plains?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, one of them was Paul Little's book, Oh No,

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Speaker 3: Why You Believe? And that was really at that stage

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Speaker 3: of my life. It just really met a lot of

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Speaker 3: ease because he was actually taking critics questions seriously and

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Speaker 3: responding to the The very fact he did that showed

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Speaker 3: me that he was confident that he could say something

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Speaker 3: meaningful about their criticisms. Mere Christianity. Francis Schaeffer was around then,

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Speaker 3: and I read him, and so those were the ways

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Speaker 3: that I sort of got in the door. There was

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Speaker 3: another guy named Fritz Ruddenhauer. I can't I don't remember him,

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Speaker 3: but he wrote a little apologetics book and I read

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Speaker 3: it and I loved it, and you know, it's nobody's

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Speaker 3: ever heard of it, but yeah, it was fairly good

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Speaker 3: in those days.

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Speaker 4: That's amazing. I love that.

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Speaker 2: So let's shift to I show up in ninety four

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Speaker 2: at Biola. You were rocking out apologetic stuff? Had you

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Speaker 2: in class ninety eight? When I came, my dad said

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Speaker 2: there's two people I needed to take. Well, three, he said,

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Speaker 2: Scott Ray boult Russell and you oh my, and took

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Speaker 2: each of you in class in different ways.

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Speaker 4: But you started writing.

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Speaker 2: It seems like shortly after that you went through a

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Speaker 2: pretty serious and it's public.

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Speaker 4: You've shared it. Just season of depression.

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Speaker 2: If and maybe two of them, we could do five

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Speaker 2: or six videos just on this, but maybe share with

436
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: us what happened, what you learned through it.

437
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I was born with a genetic predisposition to anxiety.

438
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 3: I can trace it four generations on my mom's side

439
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 3: of the family. That doesn't mean you have to be

440
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 3: that way. It just means I'm more inclined than the

441
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: average person to get anxious. And then my mom was

442
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 3: a very anxious person, and part of anxiety is a

443
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 3: learned habit, and I watched her and I internalized it,

444
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 3: and so I was high strung, I guess you'd say,

445
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 3: and I would get anxious about things, but it was

446
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 3: never debilitating. But after the school year two thousand and three,

447
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 3: I had a horrible set of things happened to my

448
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 3: family and close friend and it was a stressful year.

449
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 3: At the end of the school year, the day of graduation,

450
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 3: when that was over, I went out to my car

451
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: and I began to fall apart, and I didn't know

452
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: what was going on. I was having panic attacks but

453
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 3: didn't know what they were. And I went through i'd

454
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: say five months of this. I got into Christian therapy.

455
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: I began to read passages in the Word that spoke

456
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 3: to me, warmed and made me feel secure. I started

457
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 3: on medication and eventually I got out of it, and

458
00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 3: it hit me again in twenty thirteen after graduation. Really yeah,

459
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 3: it's interesting because that year was the second most stressful

460
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 3: year I'd ever had, and what I was doing was

461
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 3: I was stuffing my anxiety and stress because I had

462
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 3: to get through the classes. But when the school year

463
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 3: was over, both times, whoop, I fell apart. So I

464
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: ended up writing. I did said I want this to

465
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 3: happen again, and it hasn't since twenty thirteen. So I

466
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: did research in secular and Christian literature on psychological issues

467
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: and spiritual formation books, you know Dallas Willer's writing, Celebration

468
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: of Discipline, things like that. And I wrote a book

469
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 3: called Finding Quite It where I explain four practices that

470
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: four can form habits. When Paul says present your body

471
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: to God as a living sacrifice, he's really talking about

472
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 3: doing habitual things in parts of your body so that

473
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 3: you out groove the tendency to be afraid or discouraged

474
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 3: or whatever, and you put grooves in there where you

475
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 3: see it the glass half full or more. And it really, really,

476
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 3: it really helped me. So a couple of things I learned.

477
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 3: Number one, always be formed and not deformed. Now what

478
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 3: I mean by that is, don't waste your suffering. If

479
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: you suffer anxiety or depression and it just makes you

480
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: you don't do anything, and it makes you a more

481
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 3: bitter person. Not only have you suffered, but you've been harmed.

482
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 3: So it's a two for one. If you're suffering, do

483
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 3: things to form you learn learn from your suffering. Because

484
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 3: the times I have suffered, I have let that draw

485
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 3: me even closer to God. I've sought him more passionately.

486
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: I was desperate, and so at the end result of

487
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 3: that suffering was I was My character and my closeness

488
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 3: to God were formed. And so while I wouldn't want

489
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 3: to suffer again, I benefited from it. That's the first thing.

490
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 3: The second thing is don't hide it. Don't be embarrassed,

491
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: and not let other people know you're suffering. No, no, no, no,

492
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: we all have times where we suffer in a lot

493
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: of different ways, anxiety, depression, other ways, loneliness. And you

494
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: need to have a group of Christian friends. And you

495
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: can have you know, friends, you can have fifty friends,

496
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 3: but but you want to narrow it down to four five.

497
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: And these are buddies, These are real buddies, and you

498
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: can open up and say anything and and and they'll

499
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: listen and give you feedback. Well, I had some friends

500
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: that I could talk to and they said, you're not crazy,

501
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: You're you're you're you're going through a crisis time and

502
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: other people have gone through it and you're going to

503
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: make it. Well that just kind of getting that sort

504
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: of help. But but open up and be honest about it,

505
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 3: and then, uh, work smarter, not harder. You want to

506
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: try to do some reading about whatever you've got anxiety

507
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: and depression. Will focus on that. Now. I'm not trying

508
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 3: to sell my book. It's doing fine, but a book.

509
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 4: Like tell us the title I want to tell your book.

510
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, the book is Finding Quiet And and if you

511
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: look at on Amazon the five hundred and fifty or

512
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 3: more review so far, I mean it's just it's helped

513
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: so many people praise the Lord, and so be pro

514
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: Try to be proactive if you can get exercise, and

515
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 3: if that's just walking around the block, if that's all

516
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: you got, walk around the block. But don't just sit

517
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 3: in front of the television and become a couch potato.

518
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: I love television like the next person. Okay, So so

519
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 3: I'm not saying I don't watch TV. Great shows on

520
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: but those would be some things that I could mention.

521
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: What is JPM orlans all time favorite TV show? Oh goodness,

522
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: just give us one of them. You don't have to

523
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: give your top I would have.

524
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: To say probably the top one was the I think

525
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: it was a Netflix series called Homeland.

526
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, okay, and it was.

527
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 3: It was really good.

528
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: Amazing good stuff. All right, fair enough. I love Breaking Bad.

529
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: But that is a conversation for another time. So I

530
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: want to come to some of the physical suffering you've

531
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: been through recently. But I'd love to talk about how

532
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: the suffering you went through. As I listened to you,

533
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: you described that it's brought on by certain genetic tendencies

534
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: that have been passed on. It's important to exercise, which

535
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: deals with the body. But then you said certain ways

536
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: of thinkings and patterns don't be deformed, be formed to transform,

537
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: which is really Romans twelve one and two is thinking.

538
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: So going through this, how does this experience of going

539
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: through depression fit in with a substance dualist perspective of

540
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: what it means to be human? And honestly, are you

541
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: reading this into the data or since you've read forty

542
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: or fifty plus books, does it really bubble up to

543
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: the surface that the best way to deal with depression

544
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 2: is to care for the body and care for the soul.

545
00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it absolutely does. Because for someone who believes that

546
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 3: I'm my soul, I also believe I'm embodied and I

547
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: can change. I can affect my body through my mental life.

548
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 3: So if you change the way you're thinking, it literally

549
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 3: can regroove damage parts of your brain. So the mind

550
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 3: can have an effect, especially your thought life, but the

551
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 3: body and the brain can have an effect on you.

552
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 3: If your brain chemistry gets out of balance, then you

553
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: start being afraid for no good reason. And so the

554
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: couple of things that were very helpful about thought. Doubtless

555
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 3: Willards said in Renovation of the Heart of the Heart

556
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: that emotions make wonderful servants, but terrible Masters, and he says,

557
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 3: you don't want to live your lif life by emotions.

558
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 3: You have to train yourself to live your life by

559
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 3: your thinking and what you believe. And an example of

560
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 3: that is your self talk. We have habituated, formed the

561
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 3: habit of talking to ourselves. And in the book that

562
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 3: I wrote, Finding Quiet, I list ten different thought distorgers. Now,

563
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: for example, emotional reading. You look at somebody's face and

564
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 3: you think, oh, they don't like me, so you're you're

565
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: feeling that they're scrowling scowling at you probably aren't. But

566
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 3: the one, my favorite one was, and this is what

567
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 3: hurt me most is I would catastrophize or magnify what

568
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 3: might happen to me in the future. So I would say, gosh,

569
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 3: you know I haven't found a wife yet, I mean,

570
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 3: or what if I never get married? Well, okay, so

571
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: then or other things. If I don't get a raise,

572
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 3: you know, how am I going.

573
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 4: To And probably small things just consistently yea, yeah.

574
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 3: Small things too. But so what you have to do

575
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 3: is you have to learn to pay attention without being

576
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 3: obsessive and overly introspective. But you ask the Holy Spirit

577
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 3: at the end of some one point thirty nine, search

578
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 3: me and know me, examine me and see if there's

579
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: any hurtful way in me, and lead me in the

580
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: way of flourishing. And so I invite the Holy Spirit

581
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 3: to come in and help me during the day to

582
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 3: be aware of how I'm talking to myself. And if

583
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 3: I start catastrophizing, I catch it. And then there's there's

584
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 3: a set of steps you can do to have the

585
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 3: book that you can learn, and if you practice it

586
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: a couple of months two and a half months, it'll

587
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 3: go away. Won't go away overnight, but you have to

588
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: stay with it. So your thought life is tremendous. And

589
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 3: there are two kinds of doubts that people have. One's

590
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 3: an emotional doubt, and those are because you you you

591
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 3: never learned to connect with your dad or your mom,

592
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: and you're the kind of person that finds it hard

593
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 3: to emotionally touch with connect with other people. And so

594
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 3: you experience God's absence, which we all do, but you

595
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 3: experience God's absence and that creates emotional doubts that God

596
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 3: is there, or that he's listing, or he loves me,

597
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 3: or what have you. Now, the way to deal with

598
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 3: that is not to find an answer to the question,

599
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: but to try to try to get some help in

600
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 3: finding out how you can escape the burden of not

601
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 3: being attached important people in your life. And an intellectual doubt.

602
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 3: This is a legitimate thing. People really have them. They're

603
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: not smoke screens. Some are. But if you have an

604
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: intellectual doubt, you ought to be a write it down,

605
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 3: let's say, in a paragraph on a piece of paper,

606
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: because it ought to be specific enough where you can

607
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 3: verbalize it and put it down. Then what you do

608
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 3: is you don't rest until you can answer that thing,

609
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: and you google, You go online, you go to if

610
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 3: they're a pastor or that is kind of up on

611
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 3: answering questions or others, you go and you until you

612
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 3: get it, because will there are answers out there, you

613
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 3: just have to go find them. And so that's the

614
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 3: way that you deal with that kind of doubt. And

615
00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 3: that's what my approach was. And I thought that it's

616
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 3: important for me to have the courage to read what

617
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 3: the atheists were saying, and uh, if some people don't

618
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 3: feel strong enough to do that, then postpone it later.

619
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: Get yourself strengthened by your what you believe and why.

620
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: But generally speaking, as you mature all the way through life,

621
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: you have to understand who your critics are. So my

622
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 3: philosophy mind class is Sean. We use mostly books by

623
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: complete materialists that are the time I remember him, Yeah,

624
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 3: I know, I read them, Jaguan Kim. Yeah, that's exactly right,

625
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 3: us US Berkeley. Yeah. And then we I give responses

626
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,959
Speaker 3: and the students can tell whether my response is good

627
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 3: or bad. But that's the way you grow. But you

628
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: don't do it at the beginning. If you get started,

629
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 3: you start reading. That will strengthen you to the point

630
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 3: where you'd be able to do that and it wouldn't

631
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 3: upset you.

632
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 2: You're right, we could agree or discreet, although I do

633
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: remember a claim like you know what, Sean, if you disagree,

634
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: this will affect your grade. And I was like, well,

635
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: you know, definitely not kidding aside, but I will tell

636
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: you in the mid nineties, I remember I came in

637
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: and at that time the questions stuff.

638
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 4: I remember this reading on the internet.

639
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: The three big ones I remember was his evolution incompatible

640
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 2: with Christianity, what's the evidence contradictions in the Bible? Hadn't

641
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: really thought that through? And the Pagan mythology claimed that

642
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 2: Adonis and a Sirius and mythrist Christianity was borrowed from that.

643
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 2: And I asked you something I remember, I said, JP, Actually,

644
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: I said doctor Morland. At the time, I'm sure I

645
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: stayed it that way, come to think about it, but

646
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: I said, when's the last time you heard a new

647
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: question or objection. You looked at me and he said,

648
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: there's certain nuances that are new, but it's been a

649
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: long time. And you said, if you study this enough,

650
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: you'll get to the point where you feel the same.

651
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, Okay, I trust him.

652
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 4: I like this guy. He's smart.

653
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: That must be nice. And it hit me, I don't know,

654
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: maybe five or ten years ago. It came back to

655
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: me like twenty years later, and I thought, really, he's

656
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: right about that. I still I'll hear new things and

657
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: new challenges. There's always some new, But in back of

658
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: my mind, it's like, I've done this long enough to

659
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: know that there's a good answer if I'm willing to

660
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: find it right. And I find myself saying that to

661
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: young people all the time, not to tell him not

662
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 2: to research and ask tough questions, but just to say

663
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 2: give yourself some space and some time, and so I

664
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: appreciate you saying that I still remember.

665
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 3: And thanks for bringing that up, Sean, Because another reason

666
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 3: it's so important is because you will build up a

667
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: track record from when you're born again and do the

668
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 3: first ten or fifteen years or whatever, where the track

669
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 3: record will be that there was a problem that was

670
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 3: kind of causing you a doubt, but somebody in the

671
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 3: body of Christ had an answer to it. They dealt

672
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 3: with maybe Augustine dealt with it, you know, four hundreds.

673
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 3: Your job is to try to find where that answer

674
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 3: is and what you know, what happens. You succeed and

675
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 3: you find that you have these questions and you think, oh,

676
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 3: this is this is going to knock the whole thing over,

677
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 3: but I'll go on. You find an answer to it. Well,

678
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: after a while you realize that these questions have had answers,

679
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 3: and so now I don't know a good answer to

680
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 3: this particular one, but I know there's gonna I'm gonna

681
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 3: find one because it's happened to me all the time.

682
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 3: And that's a very comforting thing to know. And they

683
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 3: all people need to remember, we're a body. We don't

684
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 3: all have to know everything. There will be I don't

685
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 3: believe in certain views of the Old Testament, but I

686
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 3: don't have time to study all that. I can go

687
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 3: to our Old Testament scholars and I say tell me

688
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 3: about this, or if you don't have the availability, go

689
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: online and ask the question. And that way we're we

690
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: we spread the sustaining of our lives because we all

691
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: have a different role to play. I don't have to

692
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 3: be omniscient, and that's very important to have brothers and sisters.

693
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 3: And we hope that those that are listening to this

694
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 3: program will come here and do the apologetics program, the

695
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 3: philosophy program which ever won and strengthen yourself so you

696
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 3: can be a resource to your brothers and sisters.

697
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 4: That is exactly the vision.

698
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: Now, one more line of questioning before we shift to

699
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 2: some of the more recent just physical suffering you've gone

700
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: through and what you've learned from it.

701
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 4: Is afterlife apologetics.

702
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: So I'm going to guess maybe seven eight years ago,

703
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: two three years before COVID, I don't remember, if he

704
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 2: was in a staff meeting or somewhere. You kind of

705
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: held up a book or maybe you reference the book

706
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 2: on Evidence for Near Death Experiences by Steve Miller, who's

707
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: now a friend of mine. He just taught a class

708
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: here a few weeks ago, and he said, you want

709
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 2: to check this out. This stuff as compelling, And I thought,

710
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: you know, I'm an apologist. I've read a lot of stuff.

711
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 2: I probably need to study this and I really need

712
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 2: to be honest with you. Had pretty low expectations. I

713
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: was like, well, JP said, I'll give it due diligence.

714
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: I've heard fake stories. You can't confirm this stuff. That

715
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: was my expectation. Yeah, right, And it honestly blew me away.

716
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: And I've become one of probably the most maybe the

717
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: most outspoken apologist. Lest Strubles written a book on the

718
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: supernatural just last year, Yes that he included a chapter

719
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: interviewing Steve, and he was in part motivated by reading

720
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 2: my interviews with and he looked at some of the

721
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: comments and was like, oh my goodness, story after story

722
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 2: after experience. It kind of blew him away. But I'm

723
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 2: trying to thinking of like, what is it, what's it

724
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 2: going to take to get more people to study and

725
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: do apologetic work biblically, philosophically, scientifically for near death experiences,

726
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 2: because I could probably count them on.

727
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 4: My hand, who are doing it?

728
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 3: Well?

729
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: But why did you start studying that? Why do you

730
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 2: find it so compelling?

731
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 3: Well, knowledge can increase. It's like the sky being cloudy.

732
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 3: It can be eighty percent cloudy or fifty. Well, knowledge

733
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 3: can be a certain level of strength. So if you

734
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 3: have a true belief based on adequate reasons, but then

735
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 3: it can actually grow into greater knowledge. So I knew

736
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 3: there was life after death because I was convinced Jesus

737
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 3: was of the dead amen based on the appage evidence,

738
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 3: and it was strong. The only argument against it is, well,

739
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: miracle involves miracles. Well, so anyway, but when I started

740
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: getting sick about twelve years ago, I was facing death

741
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 3: and there were times when I would go get a scan.

742
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 3: I didn't want to wait to get the results, and

743
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 3: I would go down and I'd get a copy of it.

744
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 3: And I was sitting there in a parking lot in

745
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 3: my car, and I was going to open this thing

746
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 3: and it could be one or the other. And so

747
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 3: I I my my my knowledge level at that point

748
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 3: of life after death needed strengthening because I was now

749
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 3: facing it. This was not just an.

750
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 4: It was existent little bit just to make sure we

751
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 4: get you there, there we go.

752
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 3: It was an existent it was an existential issue. So

753
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 3: I began to read and I tell you, I've my

754
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 3: wife and I probably read forty books or fifty books

755
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 3: on this.

756
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 4: The number one I was just on death experiences. Yeah,

757
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 4: oh wow, yeah, OK.

758
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 3: And I would recommend John Burke's Imagine Heaven as my

759
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 3: first book. And I wrote a book called A Simple

760
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 3: Guide to Experience Miracles. And in that book, I showed

761
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 3: how you can tell the difference between a miracle and

762
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 3: a coincidence. There's a way to tell. And then I

763
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 3: listed vetted stories that I verified and that were publicly

764
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: verified in five areas answer to prayer, healing, hearing God's voice,

765
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 3: angels and demons, and near death experiences. Now, in the

766
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 3: back of the book, I have a bibliography where I've

767
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 3: listed I'll put my reputation on the line, your credible

768
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 3: sources of all five kinds of miracles. And there's a

769
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: section in there of near death books that you want

770
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: to read if you're interested in it, And you can

771
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 3: start with Burke, but that's great, but there are a

772
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 3: lot of other ones, and that would be a place

773
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 3: to go find some further sources if you're interested. But

774
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: it did nothing but strengthened me. And I have absolutely

775
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 3: no fear of dying.

776
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 2: It's like when you say absolutely no, you talk about

777
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: knowledge from zero fifties, agnostic.

778
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 4: Certain you are one hundred percent.

779
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think you can be one hundred percent

780
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 3: certain about anything my own existence. But I have I

781
00:48:54,440 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 3: have sufficient evidence from the resurrection and from what I've read,

782
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 3: and I can tell that these are credible stories for

783
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 3: a number of reasons. That what these indie books have done,

784
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 3: besides being persuasive, is that they take what the Bible

785
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 3: paints in sort of gray and puts color on it,

786
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 3: and it makes it real that you feel it's real,

787
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 3: you already think it is, but it's an experiential kind

788
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 3: of thing as well. So I'm at the point where

789
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 3: I am. I'm actually where Paul was when he said

790
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 3: to depart is better, but to stay here is worth it.

791
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 3: And I've told the Lord, I said, Lord, you know

792
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 3: what I'm looking forward to come on your side and

793
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 3: leaving this place. But I said, I don't think what

794
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 3: you put me here to do is I'm finished. My

795
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 3: family they need me financially, they need my presence, and

796
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 3: they all tell me that I've helped my grand children

797
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 3: along the way, and so I don't think I'm finished

798
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 3: with that. God, And so I'm asking you, I'd like

799
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 3: to teach at least two or three more years seventy

800
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 3: eight and I'll reevaluate. But if you're going to take me,

801
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 3: take me when I can feel somewhat confident that I've

802
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 3: finished the job that you put me here to do,

803
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 3: and I'll be comfortable. Now, there are ways of dying

804
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: that I'm afraid.

805
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I agree with.

806
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 3: You, So I mean I don't want to go through.

807
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 3: So that that's kind of about those issues.

808
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 2: Well, I've created a whole playlist of just near neth experiences.

809
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 2: I've had a chance to interview Michael Sabaum, who's a

810
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 2: legend in this. Oh he is him Von Lommel, Yeah, Eben, Alexander,

811
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 2: John Burke twice.

812
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 4: He has a new book coming out this fall.

813
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 2: Steve Miller, I think ten or twelve times, and I'm

814
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: going to keep on this.

815
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, he is a couple more.

816
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 2: And actually Steve and I are working on a book

817
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 2: together in due time, trying to have the best chronicled,

818
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 2: established academic case for each twenty of these unbelievable I

819
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 2: think there's a need, a need for that. But let's shift.

820
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 2: You look the best physically that I think i've seen

821
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 2: you in a while. Yeah, tell us what you've been

822
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: through physically. And then you kind of said, don't waste

823
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,720
Speaker 2: your suffering. What have you learned through this physical suffering?

824
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:35,479
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't know this, but I inherited a rare

825
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 3: disease from my father, who died at thirty seven, and

826
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 3: it's called Lynch murratory syndrome. And what it does is

827
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 3: it makes me more likely to get a range of

828
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 3: cancers than the average population. So I'm kind of it's

829
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 3: easy for me to get cancer. And I've had so

830
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 3: many different kinds. And in the last eleven and three

831
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,399
Speaker 3: fourth years, August will be the twelfth year. I've had

832
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 3: twenty five surgeries. Twenty five in eleven and a half

833
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 3: years or so, and it's that's that's you know, that's

834
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 3: more than twice a year. And I've had every kind

835
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 3: of surgery you you could imagine, and I just had

836
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 3: one last week to replace my pacemaker, and so I'm

837
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 3: I'm used to that. I'm I was really afraid the

838
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 3: first I'd say ten, But after a while, you kind

839
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 3: of get used to it. And I'm just I'm not

840
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 3: afraid of surgery. That's because of practice, and I've been

841
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 3: exposed to it. And I mean I've had you know,

842
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 3: I've had a lot of physical pain through this because

843
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:08,919
Speaker 3: some of the areas where surgery has been performed were

844
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 3: painful and they were trying to get rid of that.

845
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 3: And then the surgeries themselves recovering are painful, and and

846
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 3: so you know, I'm not I'm not complaining, but I

847
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 3: have suffered more than my share of a physical suffering.

848
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 3: And I realized again that I could either have a

849
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 3: pity party and I don't disparage anybody who's feeling a

850
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 3: little bit picked on, and wonder what God you know

851
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 3: are You're still up there? I don't doubt that, but

852
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: I would say, you know, what, what are you doing?

853
00:53:51,360 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 3: And or I could ask God to help me and

854
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 3: to be present to me in a special way so

855
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 3: that I could honor Him in his kingdom without faking it.

856
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 3: I'm not going to fake anything. And so what I

857
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 3: began to do is I began to practice various kinds

858
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 3: of prayer, contemplative prayer where you sit quietly and you

859
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,760
Speaker 3: tell the Lord I receive you if you have anything

860
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 3: you want me to notice or say. Read the scriptures

861
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 3: through the ignation way where you put yourself in the passage,

862
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 3: a lot of different ways, but I really increased my

863
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 3: intensity in reading spiritual formation books. There's a lot of

864
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 3: really good ones out there, and I think what that

865
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 3: did is it caused me to be formed by these things,

866
00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 3: not deformed. And as a result, I think I've been

867
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 3: an encouragement to people and if that means a lot

868
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 3: to me, my including my family. So the good the

869
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 3: good news is that modern medicine and I and also

870
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:21,479
Speaker 3: believe in divine healing and very much I've I've seen

871
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 3: it happen. So I've also sought divine healing, and I

872
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 3: believe that in one of the occasions I was healed

873
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 3: with without medicine. But medicine has reached a point where

874
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 3: it's so they're so good and they've been able to

875
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 3: handle pain. Uh. And so you know, you get surgery

876
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 3: and there's just it doesn't hurt. You're knocked out the

877
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 3: next time you're in the recovery room, and so it's

878
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 3: not something to fear. You have to trust me on

879
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 3: that if you're not there. But you can get there

880
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 3: and you you know, this is not your citizenship. It's

881
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 3: in heaven, it's not here, and we were made to

882
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 3: live here, but to do it in light of there

883
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 3: and and to honor the kingdom that way. So I

884
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 3: just tried to do that, but do it wisely, and

885
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 3: I'd look for books and I'd ask people things to read,

886
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 3: practices that they'd done that have helped them deal with,

887
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 3: you know, fear, and that that's that's what happened. The

888
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 3: only the only thing I have not been able to

889
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 3: deal with is because of those twenty five surgeries. And

890
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 3: I'm seventy eight. My energy's low now. I can't get

891
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 3: really excited about teaching. I love I told you before

892
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 3: the show here. I don't know when I've enjoyed teaching

893
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 3: as much. I'm having a ball those times that, oh

894
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 3: it's so much fun. But I come home and I

895
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 3: knew your wife, I'm kind of wipe out, you know,

896
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 3: And so I I don't have the energy I used to,

897
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 3: and that just means there's a lot of things I

898
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 3: can't do. I can't keep a really busy, too busy

899
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 3: a schedule, and I've learned that there are stages in life.

900
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 3: One period is where I needed to be busy because

901
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 3: that was appropriate to that stage. But now I'm not

902
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 3: as busy as I used to be, and I'm focusing

903
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 3: a little bit more on my inner life and my

904
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 3: connection with Jesus, and those are kind of the things

905
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 3: that preoccupy me, although I'm writing a little bit.

906
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 4: And kids and grandkids you always talk about, Well, you.

907
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 2: Smirked up the most when I mentioned that, so I

908
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 2: hesitate to even make this comparison.

909
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 4: I'm twenty eight years younger.

910
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 2: It's almost been three years where I went through for

911
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 2: about three months, the worst physical pain I've ever been through.

912
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 2: It was probably three or four hours a day. I'd

913
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 2: just kind of lay on my back, taken a breath

914
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 2: at a time. It hurts so bad, and I should

915
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 2: have taken non addictive opioids, but I just was so

916
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 2: afraid to get addicted to anything.

917
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 4: Looking back, I was like, that was kind of dumb,

918
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 4: but it was.

919
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 2: It was so painful, and I dropped down about one

920
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five pounds.

921
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 3: That's unbelievable.

922
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 2: And I learned that if you don't have enough fat

923
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 2: on your body, you can't even regulate some of the

924
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: emotions that you have. And there's a couple times that

925
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 2: I just emotionally broke. And I remember saying to one

926
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 2: of my just one of my best friends, a pastor.

927
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 2: I said, I'm I'd be lying if I said I

928
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 2: could thank the Lord for this. I can't. But all

929
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 2: I can do is pray that at some point I

930
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 2: would see it. YEA, God, help me hang on so

931
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 2: I can see it at some point. And that is

932
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: the honest to God only prayer that I could make.

933
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 2: And I knew I wasn't going to die. I had

934
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 2: two surgeries. It was not a fatal kind of thing.

935
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 2: Did you have that kind of experience? Did it make

936
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 2: you doubt your faith at all?

937
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 3: You know? No? I mean, but what I want to

938
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 3: say is that there's nothing wrong with doubting. Just keep growing.

939
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 2: But I.

940
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 3: Don't know. I guess i'd reached an age where those

941
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 3: kind of things I had, I've been diligent in getting

942
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 3: solid about my beliefs, and so I didn't have doubts.

943
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 3: What I did. What I did doubt was that God.

944
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 3: I knew God loved me, but I didn't know what

945
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 3: his large program was, and it could well be that

946
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 3: He was allowing this to happen to me to accomplish

947
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 3: a greater good. Now, I don't think it was just

948
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 3: using me as a means to an end. Sure, but

949
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 3: but and so I didn't. I said, Lord, is this

950
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 3: where is this going? I mean, is there something you're

951
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 3: trying to accomplish and this is the only way that

952
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 3: you can get done? Can you find another way? You know?

953
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 3: So I said, those were the questions that I couldn't solve,

954
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 3: you know, And at some point you just have to say, well,

955
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 3: I've either got to choose to live the life I've

956
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 3: got right now or make it become bitter about it.

957
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 2: That's great, And for the record, it didn't make me

958
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 2: doubt or question my faith at all.

959
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 4: I think I was just in so much physical pain.

960
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: Was like, can I just go, yeah, thank you Lord

961
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 2: for this the way we do is I I can't

962
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: thank you for that. I want to be able to

963
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 2: see it, and I do now looking back in different ways.

964
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 2: But that was just a level of faith I could muster.

965
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 4: That's helpful.

966
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 2: So tell us maybe as you wrap up, you mentioned

967
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 2: before you've done like twelve podcast interviews recently or something

968
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 2: like that, and you had a debate with a guy

969
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,439
Speaker 2: in Syria who's an atheist or something.

970
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit what you're up to.

971
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 3: Well, I'm not able to get on an airplane right now.

972
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 3: So I'm doing podcasts and I've been getting a lot

973
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 3: of invitations. And there was this one podcaster that wanted

974
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 3: me to debate, just retired professor of philosophy. I think

975
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 3: he was in the UK because that's his accent. I'm

976
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 3: not sure, but the broadcast came out of Syria and

977
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:53,479
Speaker 3: the moderator was a Christian. Well, it was a very fair,

978
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 3: it was a cordial, good debate, but he wanted to

979
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 3: debate one one principle, and it is a principle in

980
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 3: the broader column cosmological argument. The principle was it's impossible

981
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 3: to cross actual infinity one at a time. And I

982
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 3: affirmed that, and he thought he didn't believe it, and

983
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 3: I and and so we went after that, and I

984
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 3: think I may have I'm won the debate. I don't mean,

985
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 3: but that's the moderator said. Thank god, man, he emailed me,

986
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 3: thank god you were there, because this guy just didn't

987
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 3: have a clue compared to what you were saying. He

988
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 3: was a bright guy. I mean, he's a professional philosopher.

989
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't know how to get how to

990
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I kept it. I'm gonna I'm gonna

991
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 3: try to find it.

992
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 4: I would I would love to share it and have

993
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 4: people go watch it.

994
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 2: And just so people understand, the clom causible argument says,

995
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 2: whatever game to exist has a cause.

996
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 4: Yes, the universe began to exist.

997
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 2: Therefore the universe has a cause that it would be outside

998
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 2: of the universe.

999
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 4: Yes, that second premise, the universe began to exist.

1000
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 2: You can defend it scientifically yes, or theologically biblically, but

1001
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 2: also philosophically. And the idea being traversing an infinite just

1002
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 2: like we can't count up to infinity. In fact, at

1003
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 2: any point in time you would look back and it'd

1004
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 2: be finite. In the past you never arrive. Then we

1005
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 2: couldn't count down in the negative from infinity to the present. Well,

1006
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 2: he thought we could, and he apparently thought we can.

1007
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 3: I told him, Look, it's you're going the same distance

1008
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 3: both ways, number one. Number two that you're confused about

1009
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 3: the issue. The issue isn't about whether this you be

1010
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 3: the series has a start or doesn't have a start.

1011
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,919
Speaker 3: It's about the nature of actual infinity itself. That's what

1012
01:03:55,000 --> 01:04:00,160
Speaker 3: this is about. What is an actual infinite And no

1013
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 3: matter which direction forward or backwards you're going, it's still

1014
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 3: an infinite, still an infinite, but at least if you

1015
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 3: go forward you can start. It's like jumping out of

1016
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 3: an infinitely tall pit with a four, but on your view,

1017
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 3: you're jumping out of an infinitely tall pit with no floor.

1018
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 3: It's bottomless. Not only can you not finish the cross

1019
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 3: but you can't begin because you take any finite number

1020
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 3: in the past and it's there's an actual infinite number

1021
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 3: of moments before that that have to be crossed. We'll

1022
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 3: pick a moment a trillion years before that. So the

1023
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 3: problem is that's it er. It goes over and over again,

1024
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 3: and you will never be able to even get started,

1025
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 3: much less finish.

1026
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 2: That is one of many arguments that the universe had

1027
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 2: a beginning, which cries out for what caused the universe

1028
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 2: to come into existence, which you've talked about. Another book

1029
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 2: I'll throw out there, Scaling the Secular City. Maybe little dated,

1030
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: but it has some timeless factors in there that I

1031
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 2: would still encourage people to pick up and read. JP

1032
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 2: I have so many more questions for you. But this

1033
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 2: has been wonderful, really helpful, really encouraging.

1034
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 4: Folks.

1035
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 2: You said you're teaching maybe two or three more years.

1036
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 2: Your classes were just I loved them, hung on every

1037
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 2: word my classmates and I would oftentimes go to the

1038
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:21,919
Speaker 2: common Grounds coffeehouse afterwards and.

1039
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 4: Say, Okay, what'd you get? What's he saying? How do

1040
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 4: you understand this?

1041
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes you had two periods that come sneak in the

1042
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 2: second one to hear it again, to try to understand. So, folks,

1043
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 2: you've got a living legend. Come join us at Talbot.

1044
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 2: You got two or three more years to have him

1045
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 2: in class. Don't miss it. Come study here apologetics and philosophy.

1046
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 2: Had to get that in there. But most importantly, appreciate you.

1047
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 3: Love you brother, I love you, my friends, and I

1048
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 3: respect you, and I'm so honored to be here.

1049
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 4: This is this is a joy my price.

1050
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1051
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 2: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1052
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge

1053
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip.

1054
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: More people and build community.

1055
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 2: And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps.

1056
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:07,920
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to

1057
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 2: you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where

1058
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 2: we have on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual formation,

1059
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,439
Speaker 2: marriage and family, Bible and so much more. We would

1060
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 2: love to train you to more effectively, live, teach, and

1061
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 2: defend the Christian faith today, and we will see you

1062
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 2: when the next episode drops.