1 00:00:00,790 --> 00:00:03,150 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. 2 00:00:03,170 --> 00:00:05,990 Speaker 1: James Spencer. I'm joined by my co-host, Dr. Ashish Varma. 3 00:00:06,470 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: And today we're going to be kicking off a series 4 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:14,140 Speaker 2: on the intersections of politics and faith. Now, I've written 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:15,020 Speaker 2: an awful lot about this. 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: We've had podcast episodes on this in the past. 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,430 Speaker 2: But I would say most of my work has really 8 00:00:19,470 --> 00:00:23,470 Speaker 2: been on Christian nationalism and my problems that I see there, 9 00:00:23,670 --> 00:00:26,510 Speaker 2: as well as dabbling into some of the American civil 10 00:00:26,550 --> 00:00:29,990 Speaker 2: religion sort of discourses. And again, some of the theological 11 00:00:30,030 --> 00:00:32,690 Speaker 2: issues that I have with that. But as we're running 12 00:00:32,750 --> 00:00:38,060 Speaker 2: up on midterms this, I guess, November, we wanted to 13 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 2: do a series on Christians in politics that would hopefully 14 00:00:41,979 --> 00:00:44,500 Speaker 2: give people a little bit of a framework for how 15 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,210 Speaker 2: to discern what voting is, what it means, and maybe 16 00:00:48,250 --> 00:00:50,850 Speaker 2: even who to vote for. Obviously, we're not going to 17 00:00:50,890 --> 00:00:53,730 Speaker 2: go down the ballot and give recommendations. but we want 18 00:00:53,750 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: to help Christians sort of think through their political choices 19 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,660 Speaker 2: in a more robust and theological manner. And so today 20 00:01:00,700 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: what we're going to do is address some of the 21 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:05,870 Speaker 2: issues that we think really need to be a part 22 00:01:05,890 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: of that, that we, that, Ashish and I just believe 23 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,619 Speaker 2: as we think about politics, as we think about our 24 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 2: own political participation, some of the things that we think about. 25 00:01:15,819 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: And then as we go, we're going to have a 26 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,910 Speaker 2: variety of guests on who obviously have their own ideas 27 00:01:21,530 --> 00:01:24,209 Speaker 2: and who are going to bring different expertise to the 28 00:01:24,250 --> 00:01:25,830 Speaker 2: table than Ashish or I have. 29 00:01:25,930 --> 00:01:27,430 Speaker 1: And we're going to be interacting with them too. 30 00:01:27,550 --> 00:01:30,510 Speaker 2: So encourage you to not only listen to this episode, 31 00:01:30,550 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 2: but subscribe to Thinking Christian so you can catch the 32 00:01:32,670 --> 00:01:37,220 Speaker 2: whole political series we're going to do. So Ashish, welcome. 33 00:01:38,090 --> 00:01:40,810 Speaker 2: Thanks for having this conversation. I already kind of tipped 34 00:01:40,850 --> 00:01:44,110 Speaker 2: my hat. I think I got into politics and political discourse. 35 00:01:44,470 --> 00:01:48,670 Speaker 2: I think the first article I ever wrote was on 36 00:01:48,710 --> 00:01:53,030 Speaker 2: politics was related to giving to Caesar what is Caesar's 37 00:01:53,940 --> 00:01:57,460 Speaker 2: and this idea that there needs to be a distinction. 38 00:01:57,500 --> 00:01:58,940 Speaker 2: And I think this has been a theme that sort 39 00:01:58,980 --> 00:02:01,140 Speaker 2: of carried forward in most of my work on politics 40 00:02:01,660 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: is that there needs to be a distinction between church 41 00:02:04,940 --> 00:02:08,489 Speaker 2: and state. though not an isolation of church from state. 42 00:02:09,810 --> 00:02:12,330 Speaker 2: And that's sort of been my, I would say my 43 00:02:12,430 --> 00:02:15,530 Speaker 2: governing framework, because I've looked at different things like American 44 00:02:15,550 --> 00:02:18,829 Speaker 2: civil religion, which I think tends toward more of a 45 00:02:20,180 --> 00:02:24,220 Speaker 2: merger of Christianity and politics, or even Christian nationalism, which 46 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,660 Speaker 2: has that real strong draw of, hey, Christians should take 47 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,950 Speaker 2: over government kind of aspect. So that's definitely one of 48 00:02:31,990 --> 00:02:34,510 Speaker 2: the things that I think is you have to almost 49 00:02:34,570 --> 00:02:37,940 Speaker 2: start and you have to understand who you are as 50 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: a Christian, as a member of the body of Christ, 51 00:02:40,020 --> 00:02:42,020 Speaker 2: what that body of Christ is in the world, how 52 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: it's supposed to function before we really even get to politics. 53 00:02:45,860 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: So that'd be the first issue I'd throw out there. 54 00:02:47,780 --> 00:02:49,180 Speaker 2: And we don't have to talk about that in depth, 55 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: but just to say, when I approach politics, one of 56 00:02:52,340 --> 00:02:54,620 Speaker 2: the things that I'm always thinking of in my mind 57 00:02:54,740 --> 00:03:00,290 Speaker 2: is how is my political participation going to reflect either 58 00:03:00,330 --> 00:03:03,290 Speaker 2: positively or negatively, on the church's witness. 59 00:03:06,350 --> 00:03:10,550 Speaker 3: So I'm glad we're having this conversation. Similarly to you, 60 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: there's a longstanding interest in this conversation for me. I 61 00:03:14,740 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: taught a few times a class called Political Theology. That 62 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 3: class actually taught me that there's an important disclaimer before 63 00:03:24,740 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 3: you enter into it, because a lot of people came 64 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:32,500 Speaker 3: to the class saying, for one of two reasons that 65 00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: were interesting. One of them was, and this one doesn't 66 00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:37,900 Speaker 3: help in the current moment, it was just simply, I 67 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:39,870 Speaker 3: want to take a class with that guy. 68 00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:43,310 Speaker 1: You were popular. That's good. 69 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:48,330 Speaker 3: I was popular in some sectors, not in others. Or 70 00:03:48,390 --> 00:03:49,810 Speaker 3: popular for different reasons, right? 71 00:03:50,270 --> 00:03:51,940 Speaker 1: Yeah. 72 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 3: And that, I want to take a class with that guy, 73 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: doesn't apply. But then there were others who came to 74 00:03:56,940 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 3: the class thinking, That what they were getting into was 75 00:04:00,580 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: a very granular look at why. 76 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 4: One should be a Republican or a Democrat. 77 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:10,100 Speaker 1: Yeah. 78 00:04:10,180 --> 00:04:12,900 Speaker 3: And what they learned pretty quickly was that's not at 79 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,659 Speaker 3: all what the class was about. And I say that 80 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 3: by way of segue to say that's not precisely what 81 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 3: political theology is about. I think that actually demonstrates the 82 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 3: truncated nature within which we tend to use the language political. 83 00:04:26,380 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: Agreed. 84 00:04:27,790 --> 00:04:32,130 Speaker 3: And even if you zoom out to other countries than 85 00:04:32,170 --> 00:04:35,730 Speaker 3: the United States where the word political doesn't connote just 86 00:04:36,050 --> 00:04:39,010 Speaker 3: two parties, even that would be still too truncated. 87 00:04:39,050 --> 00:04:43,510 Speaker 4: Because the idea at play here is the root word. 88 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 3: The root word of political is polis, which is an 89 00:04:47,140 --> 00:04:52,779 Speaker 3: ancient Greek term that just meant the city. And specifically 90 00:04:52,820 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 3: the political were those things referring to the affairs of 91 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,490 Speaker 3: the city. And so anything that revolves around that shared 92 00:05:01,610 --> 00:05:08,349 Speaker 3: life together in a communal structure with formal boundaries on 93 00:05:08,390 --> 00:05:10,390 Speaker 3: what it meant to be within that had to do 94 00:05:10,450 --> 00:05:15,100 Speaker 3: with the political. And a political theology was very much 95 00:05:15,150 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 3: geared towards what does it mean then to live as 96 00:05:19,900 --> 00:05:24,540 Speaker 3: people who are followers of Christ within that shared environment 97 00:05:24,820 --> 00:05:29,060 Speaker 3: of the polis. including but not limited to those or 98 00:05:29,630 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 3: with those who maybe have no interest in the person 99 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:37,980 Speaker 3: of Jesus or the kingdom come and the will of 100 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 3: the Father be done on earth as it is in heaven, right? 101 00:05:41,060 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 3: And so it raises all sorts of questions that certainly 102 00:05:44,740 --> 00:05:47,940 Speaker 3: lend to the conversations we think of as political, right? 103 00:05:47,990 --> 00:05:50,630 Speaker 3: Some of the issues that separate Democrats and Republicans or 104 00:05:50,650 --> 00:05:54,070 Speaker 3: in other countries, various other parties, but are certainly not 105 00:05:54,150 --> 00:05:58,310 Speaker 3: limited to that. And certainly, can't be reduced to an 106 00:05:58,410 --> 00:05:59,929 Speaker 3: advocacy for either party. 107 00:06:00,830 --> 00:06:02,430 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 108 00:06:03,350 --> 00:06:07,390 Speaker 2: I think that, you know, in theological circles these days, 109 00:06:07,450 --> 00:06:09,870 Speaker 2: it is not uncommon to hear that the gospel is 110 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:11,170 Speaker 2: a political gospel. 111 00:06:12,230 --> 00:06:13,289 Speaker 1: And I think. 112 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:17,890 Speaker 2: In the best case scenarios, what people mean by that 113 00:06:18,710 --> 00:06:21,180 Speaker 2: is that the coming of the kingdom of God and 114 00:06:21,190 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: the proclamation of the lordship of Christ, King Jesus, you'll 115 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: often hear it said, is over against the rulers and 116 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,710 Speaker 2: authorities of this world. Now, I think there needs probably 117 00:06:35,750 --> 00:06:37,830 Speaker 2: a lot of qualification around that, but I think it's 118 00:06:37,870 --> 00:06:41,530 Speaker 2: a point that's well made more generally, is to say 119 00:06:41,610 --> 00:06:45,950 Speaker 2: that this notion that we can separate cleanly between politics 120 00:06:46,010 --> 00:06:49,820 Speaker 2: and religion and that, for instance, Christianity is a religion 121 00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: and politics is politics or the American government represents the 122 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: political realm. 123 00:06:56,060 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: It's not really strictly that. 124 00:06:58,630 --> 00:07:00,830 Speaker 2: As we look at the authority structures that we find 125 00:07:00,890 --> 00:07:04,289 Speaker 2: in scripture, we do see that God is sovereign overall. 126 00:07:04,910 --> 00:07:08,130 Speaker 2: And then there's a question of whether or not governing 127 00:07:08,180 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: authorities recognize that sovereignty, whether the church recognizes that sovereignty 128 00:07:15,020 --> 00:07:19,140 Speaker 2: to a degree, how the church recognizes that sovereignty through 129 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,990 Speaker 2: things like lack of compromise and of the faith as 130 00:07:23,590 --> 00:07:26,850 Speaker 2: suffering comes, right? Are we really willing to be obedient 131 00:07:26,910 --> 00:07:29,890 Speaker 2: when there are negative consequences to that obedience, that kind 132 00:07:29,930 --> 00:07:34,010 Speaker 2: of non-compromise is what I have in mind. So I 133 00:07:34,050 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: think that the point you're making is well taken, that 134 00:07:37,950 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: there is a political, there is a sense in which 135 00:07:41,180 --> 00:07:45,860 Speaker 2: the gospel is political because God's kingdom has a king 136 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,820 Speaker 2: and that king is above all other kings. And to 137 00:07:48,860 --> 00:07:53,580 Speaker 2: the extent that everybody is beholden to live under the 138 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: authority of Christ, right? We're all, everyone is obligated to 139 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,110 Speaker 2: do that. Then there becomes this question of, well, how 140 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:04,190 Speaker 2: do Christians do that under rulers who have a delegated 141 00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:08,270 Speaker 2: authority from the sovereign? How do we relate to those 142 00:08:08,310 --> 00:08:12,110 Speaker 2: delegated authorities? What is the scope of those delegated authorities? 143 00:08:12,310 --> 00:08:14,170 Speaker 2: All of these kinds of questions, in addition to the 144 00:08:14,230 --> 00:08:18,780 Speaker 2: ones you're raising, all come up. And That even looks 145 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: different as we think about the way that Paul would 146 00:08:21,420 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: have had to navigate this. And we've talked about this 147 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,460 Speaker 2: in other podcasts. But when Paul is giving his instructions to, 148 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,949 Speaker 2: for instance, bond servants and masters, there's probably a good 149 00:08:32,990 --> 00:08:34,870 Speaker 2: reason that he's not thinking, you know, we should really 150 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: change this part of society. We should free the bond servants. 151 00:08:39,450 --> 00:08:43,610 Speaker 2: Because he had no particular outlet to do so. It's 152 00:08:43,650 --> 00:08:46,510 Speaker 2: a completely different form of government. It's a completely different 153 00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:50,860 Speaker 2: social setting. He has different limitations on the rights that 154 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,660 Speaker 2: he has as a Roman citizen than we do in 155 00:08:54,700 --> 00:08:57,780 Speaker 2: the United States of America. And so all of these things, 156 00:08:57,860 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: I think, point to the idea that when we're talking 157 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,490 Speaker 2: about the intersection of faith and politics, what we're really 158 00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:06,490 Speaker 2: talking about is both something that is particular to a 159 00:09:06,530 --> 00:09:12,190 Speaker 2: particular country, but also particular to a specific time within 160 00:09:12,230 --> 00:09:15,740 Speaker 2: that country. And so this can look different the way we, 161 00:09:15,980 --> 00:09:20,180 Speaker 2: the dorky way to say it is diachronically or through time, right? 162 00:09:20,740 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: In the same way that it can look different geographically. 163 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: So that our, what it means to be Christian in 164 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,819 Speaker 2: the United States is going to entail different activities than 165 00:09:29,860 --> 00:09:32,070 Speaker 2: maybe it would require to be a Christian in, let's say, 166 00:09:33,470 --> 00:09:36,170 Speaker 2: China or Russia or any of. 167 00:09:36,170 --> 00:09:38,770 Speaker 1: These countries over on the other side of the ocean. 168 00:09:39,809 --> 00:09:43,230 Speaker 2: And so there's a particular, a particularity to politics that, 169 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 2: That tends nowadays to be bounded within what we would 170 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: call a nation state. 171 00:09:51,590 --> 00:09:54,290 Speaker 4: Yeah. 172 00:09:54,370 --> 00:09:56,809 Speaker 3: This makes me think of another disclaimer that has to 173 00:09:56,830 --> 00:09:59,970 Speaker 3: enter into this, that when we're talking about being political antagonists, 174 00:10:01,850 --> 00:10:04,819 Speaker 3: we're saying at base that we are creatures that exist 175 00:10:04,929 --> 00:10:08,340 Speaker 3: within social political structures. 176 00:10:08,980 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: Right. 177 00:10:09,420 --> 00:10:11,860 Speaker 3: But it does not mean that the entirety of our 178 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: agency can be subsumed within what we tend to think 179 00:10:16,220 --> 00:10:20,410 Speaker 3: of popularly as the political entity. So your example of Paul, 180 00:10:20,460 --> 00:10:22,820 Speaker 3: I think, is a fitting one, right? He had no 181 00:10:22,929 --> 00:10:25,500 Speaker 3: political agency if what we mean by that is the 182 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:31,580 Speaker 3: power to enact social structural changes that would say slavery 183 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 3: is therefore no longer okay. He had no power to 184 00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:38,580 Speaker 3: enact that. But he was every bit the political agent 185 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,740 Speaker 3: that could say, I can undermine it, right? And you 186 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: look at the subtleties within which he talked, not least 187 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,510 Speaker 3: of which was, for instance, the Book of Philemon. Where 188 00:10:47,530 --> 00:10:51,210 Speaker 3: he sends Onesimus back to Philemon, but in the process 189 00:10:51,250 --> 00:10:55,180 Speaker 3: of doing so, he lets Philemon know, hey, guess what? 190 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,340 Speaker 3: This guy who is your slave, he's your brother in Christ. 191 00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:05,580 Speaker 3: He's set at odds one political way of forming identities 192 00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:09,670 Speaker 3: with another political way. And that other political way is 193 00:11:09,809 --> 00:11:13,170 Speaker 3: one that could not be enacted by any agency of 194 00:11:13,210 --> 00:11:17,490 Speaker 3: Paul as a social structural rule. about the nature of slavery, 195 00:11:17,929 --> 00:11:20,660 Speaker 3: but it was one in which he could undermine the 196 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 3: validity of the absoluteness within which Philemon perhaps was looking 197 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:27,220 Speaker 3: at Onesimus. 198 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:28,370 Speaker 1: That's right. 199 00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:31,189 Speaker 3: Another way to think about this or another example of this, 200 00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:35,630 Speaker 3: I think is, and, and here's my, here's my dread 201 00:11:35,650 --> 00:11:37,090 Speaker 3: at the moment that I'm going to get the passage 202 00:11:37,150 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 3: a little bit wrong, but you get the idea. Um, 203 00:11:40,820 --> 00:11:43,020 Speaker 3: I believe it was Martha was anointing the feet of 204 00:11:43,059 --> 00:11:46,350 Speaker 3: Jesus with oil. And if I'm remembering and not conflating passages, 205 00:11:47,330 --> 00:11:51,030 Speaker 3: the disciples chastised her for wasting the oil. You could 206 00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:52,430 Speaker 3: have sold that and you can give that money to 207 00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:58,550 Speaker 3: the poor. Jesus' response wasn't, don't worry about the poor. Jesus' 208 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,059 Speaker 3: response was, the poor will always be with us. Now, 209 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,620 Speaker 3: I think often that's been read as saying the poor 210 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 3: should always be with us. No, I don't think that's 211 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,100 Speaker 3: at all what he's saying. What he's saying is in 212 00:12:09,140 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 3: this particular moment, the work Martha is doing has a 213 00:12:12,820 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: particular vision that's superseding yours. She gets what she's doing 214 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,349 Speaker 3: in a way that you don't. But he's not undermining 215 00:12:20,370 --> 00:12:23,090 Speaker 3: the instinct to help the poor. He's saying there will 216 00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:26,150 Speaker 3: be plenty of time to do exactly what you just say, 217 00:12:26,170 --> 00:12:28,510 Speaker 3: to take that oil and sell it and give it 218 00:12:28,530 --> 00:12:32,250 Speaker 3: to the poor. Now, whether or not one feels that 219 00:12:32,290 --> 00:12:34,250 Speaker 3: the government does a good job of helping the poor, 220 00:12:35,010 --> 00:12:37,929 Speaker 3: doesn't change the political agency that Jesus is advocating there 221 00:12:37,970 --> 00:12:40,689 Speaker 3: for the church to help the poor. 222 00:12:41,530 --> 00:12:41,930 Speaker 1: That's right. 223 00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:43,870 Speaker 3: That's the kind of distinction we have at play here, 224 00:12:43,890 --> 00:12:46,730 Speaker 3: where there is a political agency that's outside of the 225 00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:52,260 Speaker 3: typical received notion of politics, as we like to interpret it. Yeah. 226 00:12:52,820 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 3: And theology, at its best, it's knowingly attending to that. 227 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,099 Speaker 3: At its worst— it fails to recognize that it is 228 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 3: already enacting as political agents, right? Because we exist in context. 229 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,260 Speaker 3: We exist relative to powers and authorities and principalities. We 230 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 3: exist relative to leaders, dominions, rulers. And we have to 231 00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: make decisions that don't just simply honor the lines that 232 00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:23,490 Speaker 3: those political powers and dominions and rulers and authorities set 233 00:13:23,530 --> 00:13:23,949 Speaker 3: in place. 234 00:13:25,910 --> 00:13:26,569 Speaker 1: Yeah. 235 00:13:26,590 --> 00:13:32,740 Speaker 2: So would you agree that, Or what would you think 236 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: of this idea? 237 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:34,780 Speaker 1: Maybe that's the better way to phrase this. 238 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: So James Gibson wrote this book called, I'm going to 239 00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:45,410 Speaker 2: blank on the title. It's an ecological theory of visual perception, 240 00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:48,390 Speaker 2: I think is the title. But basically what he says 241 00:13:48,530 --> 00:13:53,050 Speaker 2: is that this is really a profound insight. Smaller things 242 00:13:53,429 --> 00:13:54,770 Speaker 2: are contained within bigger things. 243 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: Right. And so everything is nested within this large area. 244 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,670 Speaker 2: Now, If I'm thinking about that from a Christian perception, 245 00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:07,050 Speaker 2: what we're really saying here is that everything is nested 246 00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: underneath God's authority. And so what you end up with 247 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,540 Speaker 2: is God is the sort of all-encompassing biggest environment you 248 00:14:15,580 --> 00:14:20,340 Speaker 2: can think of. And so as Paul is moving about 249 00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:24,239 Speaker 2: and like, you know, talking, you know, sending Onesimus back 250 00:14:24,260 --> 00:14:28,470 Speaker 2: to Philemon, for instance, What he's really doing is he's 251 00:14:28,530 --> 00:14:35,250 Speaker 2: calling Philemon to have a bigger vision. Don't allow yourself 252 00:14:35,290 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: to be fully nested within the Roman Empire and the 253 00:14:38,930 --> 00:14:43,780 Speaker 2: conventions and practices within that empire. Don't be slave to 254 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: that because you have, again, to use Gibson term, affordances 255 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: beyond that. In other words, when Gibson thinks of affordances, 256 00:14:53,380 --> 00:14:56,620 Speaker 2: these are the tools that you encounter along the way Right. 257 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,930 Speaker 2: That all of these have some sort of a utility 258 00:15:01,010 --> 00:15:03,710 Speaker 2: for humankind, for lack of a better term. And all 259 00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:05,770 Speaker 2: we have to do is recognize that utility and then 260 00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:10,130 Speaker 2: we can use it as such. It's not quite that utilitarian, 261 00:15:10,150 --> 00:15:13,060 Speaker 2: but you get the gist. And so for Philemon, what 262 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,940 Speaker 2: Paul is trying to open up is to say, look, 263 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 2: Onesimus is coming back, but he's not a slave. 264 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: He's a brother. Onesimus is coming back. 265 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,580 Speaker 2: Yes, he ran away. You could treat him harshly. I'm 266 00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:26,300 Speaker 2: asking you not to. I'm asking you to treat him 267 00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:29,500 Speaker 2: like a Christian who has come back to his family. 268 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,820 Speaker 2: And now you guys have a completely different relationship, not 269 00:15:33,860 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: because what he did was right, necessarily, but because the 270 00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:40,540 Speaker 2: way you're going to welcome him back is going to 271 00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:45,370 Speaker 2: be attuned to God's authority and not to Roman conventions. 272 00:15:46,290 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: This to me is an interesting way of sort of 273 00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:52,220 Speaker 2: saying that Paul is, sometimes I phrase it as relocating 274 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,580 Speaker 2: a particular set of practices back underneath the authority of God, 275 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: but it might be better to say he's resituating these 276 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:04,180 Speaker 2: practices underneath the authority of God. 277 00:16:05,330 --> 00:16:07,710 Speaker 1: Since they're never actually located somewhere different. 278 00:16:08,630 --> 00:16:12,050 Speaker 2: So I don't know, does that get at what you're 279 00:16:12,090 --> 00:16:13,109 Speaker 2: talking about there, Ashish? 280 00:16:14,030 --> 00:16:17,110 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I see Paul redrawing lines right there, right? That 281 00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:20,270 Speaker 3: even if he can't go and say, hey, Caesar, this 282 00:16:20,310 --> 00:16:21,590 Speaker 3: practice is horrific. 283 00:16:21,950 --> 00:16:23,430 Speaker 4: This isn't the way it's supposed to be. He can't 284 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 4: do that. 285 00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:24,630 Speaker 1: Right. 286 00:16:25,660 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 4: And there's no elections. 287 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 3: It's nothing like that, right? Caesar's in control because Caesar's 288 00:16:30,420 --> 00:16:32,980 Speaker 3: in control. Ambassador political power that he has, right? The 289 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,820 Speaker 3: military that he has, the support that he has. And 290 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: so he goes to the person that he can, the 291 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:42,700 Speaker 3: person that he knows he can direct towards a different 292 00:16:43,170 --> 00:16:47,170 Speaker 3: different sort of authority, a greater authority, right? To the 293 00:16:47,210 --> 00:16:53,630 Speaker 3: degree that Philemon has a belief in the person and 294 00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:56,290 Speaker 3: authority of Jesus, he knows that he can appeal to 295 00:16:56,330 --> 00:16:59,890 Speaker 3: that and he can begin to redraw lines. You may 296 00:16:59,950 --> 00:17:02,700 Speaker 3: know that you have the political power in terms of 297 00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:06,139 Speaker 3: this or the social capital in terms of this structure 298 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 3: to have this slave, but I'm telling you, Onesimus is 299 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,510 Speaker 3: more than that. And of course, there is, by the way, 300 00:17:15,530 --> 00:17:17,210 Speaker 3: I shouldn't say of course, it's not obvious, but there 301 00:17:17,250 --> 00:17:20,460 Speaker 3: is a Greek play on words there, right? He's sending 302 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:25,060 Speaker 3: back the one who is, in name, useless. I'm sending 303 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:29,300 Speaker 3: him back to you useful, right? He's recasting, and in recasting, 304 00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:33,020 Speaker 3: lines are also being redrawn in terms of the demarcation 305 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,100 Speaker 3: of how we understand this person, that we're beginning to 306 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 3: value this person. Even as the social structures are what 307 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,550 Speaker 3: they are, We've undermined them in various ways. I think 308 00:17:43,609 --> 00:17:46,750 Speaker 3: another way of saying this is he's reshaping the imagination. 309 00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:47,670 Speaker 1: Yes. 310 00:17:47,950 --> 00:17:48,510 Speaker 4: And I think that's a. 311 00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:51,300 Speaker 3: Powerful word that is going to have to have a 312 00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:55,659 Speaker 3: lot of value within the conversations of political theology, that 313 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 3: there's an imagination that we bequeath just because we are people. 314 00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 3: We all imagine the world in certain kinds of ways. 315 00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 316 00:18:02,660 --> 00:18:06,140 Speaker 3: But what a good political theology does is it pushes 317 00:18:06,180 --> 00:18:10,570 Speaker 3: you to reimagine the world as a different sort of thing. Yeah. 318 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 3: than what our received structures are. I think kids do 319 00:18:13,420 --> 00:18:18,010 Speaker 3: this beautifully and wonderfully. I'm honestly actually really hesitant to 320 00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:21,609 Speaker 3: ever buy my kid's very particular toys. So one of 321 00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:24,530 Speaker 3: my kids loves the Ninja Turtles. His birthday is upcoming. 322 00:18:26,210 --> 00:18:29,770 Speaker 3: And I want to see the excitement on his face 323 00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:33,550 Speaker 3: by buying him a Ninja Turtle action figure. But there's 324 00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:37,729 Speaker 3: another part of me that says, this kid takes anything 325 00:18:37,770 --> 00:18:41,490 Speaker 3: and everything... And he can somehow imagine it to be 326 00:18:41,530 --> 00:18:42,650 Speaker 3: a tool of the ninja. 327 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:45,010 Speaker 2: Right. 328 00:18:45,050 --> 00:18:47,290 Speaker 3: And he does it because he has a more, kids 329 00:18:47,310 --> 00:18:49,929 Speaker 3: have this, they have a more open-ended imagination, right? They 330 00:18:49,950 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 3: can take things and they can make whatever they want 331 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: out of it. That's why they see, they see the 332 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: box packaging that's sitting by the door, ready to go 333 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:57,980 Speaker 3: in the recycling bin. 334 00:18:58,340 --> 00:19:00,540 Speaker 4: And they get excited. They quite literally get excited. They say, Papa, 335 00:19:00,580 --> 00:19:02,820 Speaker 4: can I use this? Sure. 336 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:05,219 Speaker 3: Just on recycling day, it's still going out, but for 337 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,410 Speaker 3: now you can use this. Yeah. And I watched them 338 00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:10,649 Speaker 3: to the point where I've actually started putting them in 339 00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:13,230 Speaker 3: a bag when I get packaging because I know they're 340 00:19:13,250 --> 00:19:15,510 Speaker 3: going to get excited and be creative and use it. 341 00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:18,890 Speaker 3: There's an openness to their imagination where it hasn't been 342 00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:22,180 Speaker 3: so set that they can see things for other purposes. 343 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,340 Speaker 3: Another parallel here I would say is being the child 344 00:19:27,380 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: of an immigrant, you start to see the different ways 345 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,820 Speaker 3: that being, frankly, closer to the center of global world order. 346 00:19:37,290 --> 00:19:39,669 Speaker 3: It's very different than being on the periphery of global 347 00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 3: world order. I remember we opened up, the car wasn't 348 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 3: starting and we opened up the hood as kids. And 349 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,810 Speaker 3: my dad says, look at this. And he shows me 350 00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:55,219 Speaker 3: the corrosion on the battery terminals. Now, my parents, they 351 00:19:55,260 --> 00:19:56,619 Speaker 3: weren't particularly keen on letting. 352 00:19:56,460 --> 00:20:00,899 Speaker 4: Me drink pops, sodas, Cokes, whatever you want to call them, 353 00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:03,060 Speaker 4: depending on the part of the country you're from. 354 00:20:03,619 --> 00:20:06,369 Speaker 3: But we had some. And it was kind of one 355 00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:07,629 Speaker 3: of those things of why do we have these if 356 00:20:07,650 --> 00:20:08,489 Speaker 3: we're not allowed to drink them? 357 00:20:09,109 --> 00:20:09,810 Speaker 4: My dad went and. 358 00:20:09,770 --> 00:20:11,689 Speaker 3: Got one of them and he says, watch this. And 359 00:20:11,730 --> 00:20:15,070 Speaker 3: he pours it on the battery terminal and the corrosion 360 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:19,310 Speaker 3: just melts away. And what he wanted to show me was, 361 00:20:20,609 --> 00:20:23,050 Speaker 3: there could be a secondary lesson. The secondary lesson could be, 362 00:20:23,490 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 3: you want to put that into your mouth? 363 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:26,020 Speaker 1: You want to put that into your stomach? 364 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,260 Speaker 3: But that wasn't actually his point. He was just showing 365 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 3: me what he did. We have tools all around us 366 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:34,820 Speaker 3: that can get the things done that we need to 367 00:20:34,859 --> 00:20:38,810 Speaker 3: get done, even if it's not the prescribed way our 368 00:20:38,869 --> 00:20:41,310 Speaker 3: imagination has said they ought to be used, right? It's 369 00:20:41,330 --> 00:20:44,129 Speaker 3: the same sort of thing as kids do. And that's 370 00:20:44,190 --> 00:20:46,750 Speaker 3: the sort of thing that I think a good political 371 00:20:46,810 --> 00:20:48,490 Speaker 3: theology could do. It can sort of say, I can 372 00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:51,020 Speaker 3: work with that. I live within this structure. How can 373 00:20:51,060 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 3: I redraw lines? How can I take and flip the narrative? 374 00:20:54,480 --> 00:21:00,260 Speaker 3: How can I place myself within one imposition of a 375 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:03,740 Speaker 3: way of being and bring freedom, the freedom that is 376 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 3: in Christ in the midst of that, if that makes 377 00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: any sense? 378 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:08,180 Speaker 1: It does. 379 00:21:08,340 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: Let me try to, I think, illustrate what you're talking about, 380 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 2: and then I'll try to tie this into another point 381 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,580 Speaker 2: that I think is really crucial for us to wrestle with. 382 00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:21,970 Speaker 2: I got asked to be a panel on Christian nationalism, 383 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:25,690 Speaker 2: and so I was talking with people there, and I 384 00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:28,030 Speaker 2: had mentioned some of the ways that I vote and 385 00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:30,910 Speaker 2: don't vote and different things like that, and they were 386 00:21:31,010 --> 00:21:34,790 Speaker 2: sort of appalled. Um, and they said, you know, how 387 00:21:34,830 --> 00:21:37,070 Speaker 2: can you not, cause I don't, I don't vote in 388 00:21:37,090 --> 00:21:39,210 Speaker 2: every general election. I'll just say it like that. Like, 389 00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:41,780 Speaker 2: and so they were wondering, why don't you vote? 390 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: Right. 391 00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:46,260 Speaker 2: And I tried to explain, like, I live in Illinois. 392 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 2: And so if you're a Democrat, they don't need you. 393 00:21:48,340 --> 00:21:50,740 Speaker 2: And if you're a Republican, you don't matter. Like we're 394 00:21:50,780 --> 00:21:54,790 Speaker 2: a pretty deep blue state. Like, it's not like one 395 00:21:54,830 --> 00:21:56,050 Speaker 2: vote is going to make that history. 396 00:21:56,109 --> 00:21:56,290 Speaker 3: Yeah. 397 00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:58,310 Speaker 2: At least in recent history, it's not going to make 398 00:21:58,330 --> 00:22:01,649 Speaker 2: a whole lot of difference, you know? And, uh, And 399 00:22:01,670 --> 00:22:04,150 Speaker 2: so finally, I said, listen, I said, I don't view 400 00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:08,890 Speaker 2: voting as a sacred duty. I think understanding it that 401 00:22:08,930 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: way is problematic because at some point, whenever we vote, 402 00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:16,020 Speaker 2: we could have a detrimental impact on the church's witness. 403 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:18,260 Speaker 2: And I think we should be able to, as Christians, 404 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,070 Speaker 2: choose not to have that detrimental impact. And so I 405 00:22:21,109 --> 00:22:23,350 Speaker 2: don't view it as a sacred duty. I see it 406 00:22:23,530 --> 00:22:26,630 Speaker 2: as a voluntary right that we can exercise or not, 407 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:30,530 Speaker 2: depending on and constrained by how this does or does 408 00:22:30,590 --> 00:22:36,130 Speaker 2: not advance the gospel. They still didn't like that. So 409 00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:39,909 Speaker 2: I finally said, and I don't mean this as a 410 00:22:39,950 --> 00:22:42,830 Speaker 2: virtue signal, but I'm just saying, I said to them, 411 00:22:43,390 --> 00:22:47,090 Speaker 2: my wife and I recently adopted. How many kids have 412 00:22:47,109 --> 00:22:53,010 Speaker 2: you adopted? And they said, well, none, which I think 413 00:22:53,050 --> 00:22:56,709 Speaker 2: was lucky for the illustration of my point. But when 414 00:22:56,730 --> 00:23:01,690 Speaker 2: they said none, I said, well, why not? Why wouldn't 415 00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:05,070 Speaker 2: you adopt? Why wouldn't you take care of the widow 416 00:23:05,109 --> 00:23:09,230 Speaker 2: and the orphan? Now, in some ways, it's a loaded question, right? 417 00:23:09,310 --> 00:23:13,410 Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting that all Christians go out and adopt children, right? 418 00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:16,090 Speaker 1: But the point is this, that there has. 419 00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 2: To be some level of discernment within our political ideologies, 420 00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:25,619 Speaker 2: our political theology and understanding to allow the church to 421 00:23:25,660 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 2: be the church in the various and manifold ways that 422 00:23:28,420 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: the church can be the church. 423 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:31,740 Speaker 1: And I think the. 424 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,060 Speaker 2: Core layer to this is that once we get tied 425 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: into the political machine where Christians just need to get 426 00:23:38,420 --> 00:23:42,739 Speaker 2: out and rock the vote, Christians need to like the 427 00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: posts that rally against or rail against a particular policy 428 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,980 Speaker 2: we don't like. I don't really have too much of 429 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 2: a problem with some of those things, but I would 430 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,109 Speaker 2: say that because that's become the primary mechanism in the 431 00:23:56,170 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 2: United States that we use to engage politically, We have 432 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: lost resources that come along with being the political body 433 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,220 Speaker 2: of Christ committed to the gospel and unwilling to compromise, 434 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,660 Speaker 2: even though there are negative consequences that may come along 435 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: with obedience. In other words, I think that we have 436 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 2: to start thinking in terms of, and I almost hate 437 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: to borrow this language because it's got such a pejorative 438 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 2: effect in other places, but we need to be Christian first. 439 00:24:26,310 --> 00:24:28,050 Speaker 1: Like, Who we are, our. 440 00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:30,590 Speaker 2: Identity needs to be rooted in this notion that the 441 00:24:30,670 --> 00:24:33,969 Speaker 2: church can have and is intended to be for the 442 00:24:34,010 --> 00:24:36,730 Speaker 2: sake of the world as much as it's intended to 443 00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:40,060 Speaker 2: be for the glory of God. And what I mean 444 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,740 Speaker 2: by that is that without the church, the world has 445 00:24:43,859 --> 00:24:49,900 Speaker 2: no way of seeing the divine self-disclosure. Like we're supposed 446 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 2: to embody that to some way, shape or form. And 447 00:24:52,420 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: I think that that is an aspect of our political 448 00:24:55,300 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 2: theology that has to come out here. We can't just 449 00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:01,889 Speaker 2: get stuck with our primary vehicle of let's get the 450 00:25:01,930 --> 00:25:05,750 Speaker 2: right guy elected. Let's get the right policy enacted. We 451 00:25:05,810 --> 00:25:08,290 Speaker 2: also have to be boots on the ground, actually doing 452 00:25:08,350 --> 00:25:13,990 Speaker 2: the work and being the church, regardless of whether a 453 00:25:14,030 --> 00:25:19,379 Speaker 2: particular leader or set of policies is right. quote-unquote, going 454 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,350 Speaker 2: our way or not. Does that make sense to you, Ashish, 455 00:25:23,369 --> 00:25:23,950 Speaker 2: what I just said? 456 00:25:25,030 --> 00:25:25,850 Speaker 4: It absolutely does. 457 00:25:25,930 --> 00:25:30,369 Speaker 3: So I want to draw out the significant strands that 458 00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:35,810 Speaker 3: I think align here, and that's that let's give a 459 00:25:35,850 --> 00:25:39,970 Speaker 3: name to it, right? One of the primary voting bloc 460 00:25:40,060 --> 00:25:44,660 Speaker 3: issues for especially evangelicals and conservative Catholics in this country, 461 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,020 Speaker 3: if not the primary voting bloc issue, is abortion, right? 462 00:25:48,060 --> 00:25:48,179 Speaker 1: Yeah. 463 00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:55,139 Speaker 3: One of the, but not the only, critiques of the 464 00:25:56,060 --> 00:26:03,290 Speaker 3: pro-life movement, as it's called, is that Christians advocate strongly 465 00:26:03,550 --> 00:26:08,170 Speaker 3: against abortion, but do very little to help people that 466 00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:10,889 Speaker 3: find themselves in a position such that they end up 467 00:26:10,910 --> 00:26:11,710 Speaker 3: choosing abortion. 468 00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:12,740 Speaker 1: That's right. 469 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,300 Speaker 3: One of the ways in which we see this manifested 470 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:24,369 Speaker 3: in is The extreme issue that many orphanages have in 471 00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:26,790 Speaker 3: which they have children that age out, right? There's a 472 00:26:26,850 --> 00:26:31,910 Speaker 3: fairly small window in which children tend to be adopted. 473 00:26:32,750 --> 00:26:35,300 Speaker 3: And once they age out of a certain range deemed 474 00:26:35,340 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 3: to be the cute range, they're no longer really the 475 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 3: kids that people want. And now they're left in a 476 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,330 Speaker 3: situation that is often, not necessarily, but often tragic, right? 477 00:26:49,070 --> 00:26:51,050 Speaker 3: A growth in the sense of being not wanted, a 478 00:26:51,150 --> 00:26:55,050 Speaker 3: growth in the sense of displacement. And it ends up 479 00:26:55,150 --> 00:26:59,380 Speaker 3: creating other cycles that are deeply problematic, right? 480 00:27:00,020 --> 00:27:00,340 Speaker 1: Yeah. 481 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 3: And what you're advocating here is, or what you're at 482 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,980 Speaker 3: least implying, I should say. I don't know the full 483 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,389 Speaker 3: way in which you made your speech. But what you 484 00:27:10,430 --> 00:27:12,429 Speaker 3: seem to have at least been implying is that the 485 00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 3: ways that we've drawn the lines... fail to take into 486 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,100 Speaker 3: account that there's other sorts of ways of being in 487 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 3: the world that create an environment that if you don't 488 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,340 Speaker 3: want people to commit abortions, then you create avenues of 489 00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 3: opportunity that are viable. 490 00:27:27,140 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: That's right. 491 00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:28,660 Speaker 4: So how many of you have adopted? 492 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:36,090 Speaker 3: You're redrawing lines, right? It's a signal for a political 493 00:27:36,150 --> 00:27:38,909 Speaker 3: change of imagination, by which I mean, again, not in 494 00:27:38,930 --> 00:27:41,990 Speaker 3: the narrow sense, but in the broad sense, rethinking the 495 00:27:42,010 --> 00:27:44,310 Speaker 3: way that boundaries are. I think another way of looking 496 00:27:44,330 --> 00:27:49,820 Speaker 3: at this is to think about racial politics. I live 497 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 3: in the Chicagoland area, and it's impossible to deny that 498 00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 3: historically Chicago and the Chicago area has deeply drawn racial divisions. 499 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,660 Speaker 3: If you look at the aggregate of it, it's quite 500 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:06,220 Speaker 3: the diverse place. But if you look at the drawing 501 00:28:06,260 --> 00:28:08,419 Speaker 3: of the boundaries, both historically and even the way that 502 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 3: they're maintained in various ways today, You have clearly demarcated 503 00:28:12,140 --> 00:28:13,420 Speaker 3: areas where you can point to. 504 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,770 Speaker 4: This is where such and such people live. 505 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,369 Speaker 3: Right down to the very community I live in that 506 00:28:20,410 --> 00:28:25,910 Speaker 3: has a very heavily Islamic community that draws upon people 507 00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:33,550 Speaker 3: ranging from northern India through the UAE, right? Immigrants from 508 00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:36,149 Speaker 3: these different areas. But you can, again, look at the 509 00:28:36,190 --> 00:28:39,770 Speaker 3: community and you know where people live. 510 00:28:40,350 --> 00:28:40,490 Speaker 1: Right. 511 00:28:41,060 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 3: Now, I was involved in a church for a long 512 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,060 Speaker 3: time in which I was trying to have conversations with 513 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 3: a pastor. And I'll leave names of church and pastor 514 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 3: out of this. But I was trying to advocate that 515 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,500 Speaker 3: this church is hard for me to attend. I have 516 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,620 Speaker 3: my reasons for why I was attending the church, but 517 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,700 Speaker 3: I said it's hard for me to motivate myself still 518 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 3: on a weekly basis to come and to be involved in. 519 00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:08,740 Speaker 3: And I was involved at the time at that church because. 520 00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:13,989 Speaker 3: There seems to be very little effort made to recognize 521 00:29:14,030 --> 00:29:18,730 Speaker 3: that there are barriers within this church, social imaginary barriers 522 00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:23,020 Speaker 3: to people who don't look like the pastor or sound 523 00:29:23,060 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 3: like the average person in this church, that I have 524 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,780 Speaker 3: to overcome those barriers every time I come here. And 525 00:29:30,820 --> 00:29:34,090 Speaker 3: he seemed like he was listening. He seemed really attentive. 526 00:29:34,790 --> 00:29:37,610 Speaker 3: But then he said, you know what, Ashish, I hear you, 527 00:29:37,690 --> 00:29:39,850 Speaker 3: but we also have to reckon with basic facts of 528 00:29:39,890 --> 00:29:44,820 Speaker 3: this community just as white. That was a really disappointing 529 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 3: answer to me, not least because I could immediately point 530 00:29:49,380 --> 00:29:50,380 Speaker 3: to the pockets that. 531 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,500 Speaker 4: Were very not white. Mm-hmm. 532 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,100 Speaker 3: And I could point to the fact that, you know what, 533 00:29:56,180 --> 00:29:58,180 Speaker 3: if I walk into this church on a Tuesday, you 534 00:29:58,220 --> 00:30:00,220 Speaker 3: know what I'll see? I'll see those people coming in 535 00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 3: here for language classes. 536 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:02,340 Speaker 1: Yeah. 537 00:30:02,540 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 4: English as a second language class. 538 00:30:04,340 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 3: But if I walk in here on a Wednesday or 539 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 3: on a Sunday, nope. Why is it that they don't 540 00:30:11,660 --> 00:30:14,530 Speaker 3: feel welcomed or invited to come in on a Wednesday 541 00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:18,150 Speaker 3: and a Sunday in a way that they'll walk in 542 00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:21,350 Speaker 3: for a completely non-religious experience of learning English as a 543 00:30:21,370 --> 00:30:24,220 Speaker 3: second language? And to his credit, he said, that's a 544 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,380 Speaker 3: good point. I never thought about that. And my larger 545 00:30:27,420 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 3: point was because we've organized the ways that we think 546 00:30:31,020 --> 00:30:34,710 Speaker 3: as a church and the things that we prioritize and 547 00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:37,410 Speaker 3: the ways in which we organize our life of worship 548 00:30:37,630 --> 00:30:43,510 Speaker 3: and the ways in which we signal out social being 549 00:30:43,910 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 3: and political being. That's very exclusionary, meaning those same lines 550 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,350 Speaker 3: we see in the Chicagoland area that demarcate what spaces 551 00:30:53,410 --> 00:30:57,090 Speaker 3: are safe for whom, are the same lines within which 552 00:30:57,150 --> 00:31:03,900 Speaker 3: this church operates. What if, just what if, the church 553 00:31:03,980 --> 00:31:08,180 Speaker 3: challenged that imaginary and said, we're building, whether physically or metaphorically, 554 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:17,739 Speaker 3: on borders rather than within those boundaries, right? Now, I'll 555 00:31:17,780 --> 00:31:20,140 Speaker 3: leave off the story of that church and speak more 556 00:31:20,220 --> 00:31:24,150 Speaker 3: optimistically and just simply say, I think that's the sort 557 00:31:24,190 --> 00:31:26,290 Speaker 3: of thing that you were getting at, it sounds to me, 558 00:31:26,530 --> 00:31:28,500 Speaker 3: with your comments about adoption. It's the sort of thing 559 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 3: that I'm definitely trying to get at by signaling that 560 00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:36,980 Speaker 3: there's great opportunity in imagination and expanding that imagination. Because 561 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 3: often the sorts of boundaries that we take for granted, 562 00:31:40,060 --> 00:31:44,230 Speaker 3: often implicitly, are things formed in us, but we're not 563 00:31:44,270 --> 00:31:46,950 Speaker 3: even aware of, right? And it's the same reason that 564 00:31:46,990 --> 00:31:50,370 Speaker 3: kids who haven't yet been rigidified, if I can make 565 00:31:50,430 --> 00:31:53,300 Speaker 3: up a word, in those sorts of ways- can pick 566 00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:56,180 Speaker 3: up one thing and imagine it to be something else 567 00:31:56,700 --> 00:32:02,209 Speaker 3: and be entertained for hours with it, right? So what 568 00:32:02,270 --> 00:32:05,070 Speaker 3: if the church could think in those sorts of ways, right? 569 00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:07,010 Speaker 3: That's the challenge and the hope. 570 00:32:08,170 --> 00:32:10,950 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love, I mean, one of the passages I 571 00:32:10,990 --> 00:32:13,740 Speaker 2: reflected on a pretty good bit here lately is 1 572 00:32:13,740 --> 00:32:16,780 Speaker 2: Corinthians 7, and I think it has deep application to 573 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 2: a political theology. And part of the reason I think 574 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,270 Speaker 2: that is because Paul is urging Christians people to remain as. 575 00:32:23,250 --> 00:32:23,990 Speaker 1: They are called. 576 00:32:24,010 --> 00:32:28,250 Speaker 2: Now, what's he doing there? He speaks to married people, 577 00:32:28,490 --> 00:32:32,670 Speaker 2: single people, and then ultimately bond servants. I don't think 578 00:32:32,730 --> 00:32:35,820 Speaker 2: what he's saying is, if you're single, just never get married. 579 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,460 Speaker 2: Or if you're a bond servant, never seek your freedom. 580 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: In fact, in the passage, he says, but if you 581 00:32:41,260 --> 00:32:45,060 Speaker 2: can gain your freedom, do it. So he's not arguing 582 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,580 Speaker 2: that you should never change your social status. This is 583 00:32:47,620 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: not Paul saying that we all have our destiny and 584 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,110 Speaker 2: we all have our lot to live. And so just 585 00:32:52,190 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 2: stay where God put you and don't have any ambition. 586 00:32:55,260 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 2: That's not the point of the text. What I think 587 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,460 Speaker 2: the point of the text is, is this. We don't 588 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,300 Speaker 2: have to change our social situation in order to serve God. 589 00:33:04,660 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: And I think that's a really crucial lesson for the 590 00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: church in the United States today and probably in other countries. 591 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: I'm just most familiar with the United States is to 592 00:33:15,340 --> 00:33:20,450 Speaker 2: say this, that. We've tended to lean into the politics pretty, 593 00:33:20,550 --> 00:33:23,790 Speaker 2: to the political realm, I'll say, the government pretty hard. 594 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: We've engaged a strategy. 595 00:33:26,940 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 2: Or a big portion of the evangelical community, at least, 596 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:32,260 Speaker 2: has engaged a strategy that says, if we can get 597 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,300 Speaker 2: the right judges on the Supreme Court, if we can 598 00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:35,940 Speaker 2: get the right people in office, if we can get 599 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,500 Speaker 2: the right policies in place, if we can get the 600 00:33:37,540 --> 00:33:42,530 Speaker 2: right laws changed, we're going to be better off. I 601 00:33:42,570 --> 00:33:46,170 Speaker 2: don't disagree with that being the case at all, right? Like, 602 00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:49,850 Speaker 2: Some of those things are fine. Like, go ye therefore 603 00:33:49,890 --> 00:33:54,650 Speaker 2: and do. My problem is that there's a capture within 604 00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:58,210 Speaker 2: that political realm that says, if we don't change it, 605 00:33:58,670 --> 00:34:01,270 Speaker 2: we can't really serve the Lord. And so people begin 606 00:34:01,310 --> 00:34:07,230 Speaker 2: to default to changing the world, as opposed to serving 607 00:34:07,290 --> 00:34:10,969 Speaker 2: the Lord where they are, doing what they can. And 608 00:34:10,989 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 2: there's just something in me, maybe it's the old personal trainer, man, like, 609 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,820 Speaker 2: you know, you develop strength one rep at a time. 610 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: It's just all it is. 611 00:34:21,380 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 2: It's always about the next rep. You either get it 612 00:34:23,580 --> 00:34:27,020 Speaker 2: or you don't. But it's small steps, right? And we 613 00:34:27,060 --> 00:34:30,580 Speaker 2: can construct them as bigger workouts or year-long programs or whatever. 614 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,700 Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it comes down to, 615 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,090 Speaker 2: you're still doing one rep at a time. And to me, 616 00:34:37,180 --> 00:34:39,430 Speaker 2: I think that if we lose this notion that the 617 00:34:39,469 --> 00:34:41,689 Speaker 2: church has the ability to do one rep at a time, 618 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,900 Speaker 2: that we can do small things that are going to 619 00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 2: add up to big service to the Lord, whether that 620 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,419 Speaker 2: changes the country's political landscape or not, is not really 621 00:34:54,460 --> 00:34:59,219 Speaker 2: my concern, right? But my concern is that when we 622 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 2: live into faithfulness, we're living into the responsibility we've been given. 623 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,900 Speaker 2: And I would just argue that we are not, Christians 624 00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 2: aren't responsible for changing the world. We're responsible for living 625 00:35:12,810 --> 00:35:15,570 Speaker 2: in the world faithfully as we wait for God to 626 00:35:15,590 --> 00:35:20,450 Speaker 2: transform it. That may very well entail certain changes in 627 00:35:20,469 --> 00:35:24,339 Speaker 2: the world. It may very well mean that we, to 628 00:35:24,380 --> 00:35:26,739 Speaker 2: your point, the poor will always be with us. It 629 00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:30,620 Speaker 2: may very well mean that we keep running into the poor, right? 630 00:35:30,739 --> 00:35:34,459 Speaker 2: And helping the poor until the end of the world, right? 631 00:35:34,540 --> 00:35:37,630 Speaker 2: And nothing changes about that. The poor will always be 632 00:35:37,670 --> 00:35:40,989 Speaker 2: with us, right? That problem never gets fixed until the end. 633 00:35:42,489 --> 00:35:44,270 Speaker 2: I think our job is not to fix it. It's 634 00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: to live faithfully within it. And this is, that's where 635 00:35:48,020 --> 00:35:52,620 Speaker 2: I think that first Corinthians seven passage really resonates with 636 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 2: me as we think about sort of the political theology aspect, 637 00:35:56,340 --> 00:36:01,029 Speaker 2: because in it, Paul is saying, you don't have to 638 00:36:01,070 --> 00:36:05,370 Speaker 2: change your situation in order to serve the Lord, serve 639 00:36:05,469 --> 00:36:06,470 Speaker 2: where you're found. 640 00:36:07,950 --> 00:36:12,030 Speaker 1: Don't miss opportunities to change things. That's fine. but serve 641 00:36:12,070 --> 00:36:14,150 Speaker 1: the Lord where you're found, serve the Lord where you're called. 642 00:36:15,090 --> 00:36:19,710 Speaker 2: Um, so yeah, I, you know, any last comments on 643 00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:21,830 Speaker 2: that and then we'll, we'll kind of close off the episode. 644 00:36:22,750 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 645 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,300 Speaker 3: I want to look at your comment from a slightly 646 00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 3: different angle, but to say the same thing where you 647 00:36:28,780 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 3: said you don't have to change your, your situation in 648 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,770 Speaker 3: order to bring about the sorts of public changes or 649 00:36:37,830 --> 00:36:38,850 Speaker 3: public efforts. 650 00:36:39,830 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 4: Um, Right. 651 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,899 Speaker 3: We can continue to be where we are, but that 652 00:36:44,980 --> 00:36:48,259 Speaker 3: requires us to begin to see with new eyes, to 653 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 3: hear with new ears, to maybe hear from those we 654 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,049 Speaker 3: haven't previously been willing to hear from, to be willing 655 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,410 Speaker 3: to give an ear to those who we might incline 656 00:36:59,430 --> 00:37:02,589 Speaker 3: to be thinking, well, they're coming from some position that 657 00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:05,529 Speaker 3: I know I'm going to disagree with, and listen charitably, right? 658 00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:09,649 Speaker 3: It'd be the willingness of the pastor to look and say, 659 00:37:10,380 --> 00:37:12,910 Speaker 3: you know what, this community maybe isn't quite as homogenous 660 00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:14,890 Speaker 3: as I thought it was. I'm just drawing lines in 661 00:37:14,930 --> 00:37:18,110 Speaker 3: the wrong way. And so there's a willingness to challenge 662 00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:23,570 Speaker 3: the givenness and to allow the opening up of an 663 00:37:23,630 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 3: imagination to see things more broadly or from a different 664 00:37:28,219 --> 00:37:31,660 Speaker 3: angle or in terms of different sorts of goals than 665 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:38,129 Speaker 3: what's given to us from the pulpit of the political 666 00:37:38,190 --> 00:37:39,130 Speaker 3: stands or podiums. 667 00:37:40,660 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%. 668 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 2: I think this is going to be an interesting series 669 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,910 Speaker 2: because I think what we're going to start to open 670 00:37:46,989 --> 00:37:49,250 Speaker 2: up and recognize is that the church has a really 671 00:37:49,350 --> 00:37:53,770 Speaker 2: unique political role to play. And it's a, to borrow 672 00:37:53,790 --> 00:37:57,270 Speaker 2: a William Kavanaugh term, a theo-political role to play. 673 00:37:57,210 --> 00:37:57,710 Speaker 1: In the world. 674 00:37:58,850 --> 00:38:03,230 Speaker 2: We've obviously already mentioned imaginaries, which is Charles Taylor's language. 675 00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:06,379 Speaker 2: We're going to be able to dive into a lot 676 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 2: of these ideas in greater depth across this series. And 677 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,069 Speaker 2: so We're just barely scratching the surface on it here. 678 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,540 Speaker 2: So I'd encourage everybody to come back and continue on 679 00:38:16,580 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 2: with this series. We've got some really great guests lined 680 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,140 Speaker 2: up and so excited to have some folks on the 681 00:38:21,180 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: show and hopefully continue lining up some additional people. We've 682 00:38:25,180 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 2: got one guy who Ashish and I worked with for 683 00:38:28,340 --> 00:38:30,450 Speaker 2: a long time that we're excited about, but many. 684 00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:31,950 Speaker 1: People might not know, Michael McDuffie. 685 00:38:33,110 --> 00:38:36,230 Speaker 2: We've got Kevin Flatt, who wrote a book on secularization, 686 00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:38,670 Speaker 2: social order, and world history. 687 00:38:39,620 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: Who's got some really interesting stuff. And we're bringing back 688 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,820 Speaker 1: some old favorites like David Kiosis and a few others 689 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,420 Speaker 1: that have been on the show before. Veronica Ogle is 690 00:38:49,460 --> 00:38:51,860 Speaker 1: going to be on, who wrote on the City of 691 00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:54,570 Speaker 1: God and Augustine. We've just got a really. 692 00:38:54,430 --> 00:38:56,190 Speaker 2: Great lineup of people who are going to bring a 693 00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:59,110 Speaker 2: lot of diverse perspectives and thought process to this. And 694 00:38:59,150 --> 00:39:02,410 Speaker 2: so just encourage you all to come back and subscribe 695 00:39:02,430 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 2: to Thinking Christian so you don't miss any episodes. But Thanks, Ashish, 696 00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:08,950 Speaker 2: for being here today. Thanks for the conversation. And thanks, everybody, 697 00:39:08,969 --> 00:39:11,070 Speaker 2: for listening. We'll catch you on the next episode of 698 00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:11,630 Speaker 2: Thinking Christian.