WEBVTT - Why Christians Should NOT be Leftists 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:03.640 Life Audio. 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:07.720 Maybe this is uncharitable, Scott, But when somebody says we 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:13.000 believe in biblical authority and keeps advancing such a bad argument, 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.880 it makes me question the commitment to biblical authority and 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.840 at least say on this issue, something is overriding biblical 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.560 authority from the culture. 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.479 Being a Christian doesn't make you feel like you're on 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:27.600 top of things. It actually makes you feel like you're 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.880 under things and in need of grace. 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.360 I get why people are drawn to the left. I 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:35.639 understand it at the very end. Though why I think 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:37.680 I'm not is that there's no other way to put it. 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:43.040 Then it's just divorced from reality. Should Christians be leftists? 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:48.320 Can leftism consistently be wed with a Christian worldview? And 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.080 is leftism gaining ground in the church and in the culture? 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:55.360 Scott Ray, We've got a fascinating new book we're going 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.920 to do a review on by Phil Christman called Why 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.800 Christians Should should be Leftists? 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:03.040 You ready, rock and roll? 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:04.759 I'm ready. Let's get to it all right. 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:06.960 So this is really more of an essay than it 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.800 is a book. It's kind of a testimony of his experience, 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.680 which we'll get to. But before we dive into the 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:18.119 case that he makes. What does the author mean by leftism? 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:19.400 What are we talking about here. 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:24.480 Well, he distinguishes it from liberalism, which he's referred to 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.600 political liberalism there as opposed to Just to be clear 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:34.120 for our listeners, the term classic liberalism is different than 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:39.280 political liberalism, which is different than leftism. Okay, The classic 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.039 classic liberal tradition is what our founding fathers had in 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:48.920 mind of individual rights, free expression, limited government, you know, 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.920 things things like that that form I think sort of 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:57.520 the heart and soul of political conservatism today. Political liberalism 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.960 is a different, different view of that which takes a 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:07.559 larger view for the state, heavier taxes, more services, things 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:12.240 like what we might call democratic socialism, in which we 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:14.960 see in Scandinavia and parts of Europe, where it's just 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.640 a different it's a different arrangement where taxes are higher, 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.240 service and services are more provided, and there's less space 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:26.760 for for what we call mediating institutions that stand between 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:34.320 the state and the individuals. Leftism is political liberalism on steroids, okay. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:39.239 And the leftism that he's describing here is I think, 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:45.840 sort of heavy on deconstructing the institutions, mainly of the 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:50.440 market economy where he does where the liberal I would say, 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.600 political liberals want to want to they want to remodel 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:58.919 the house. Leftists want to tear the house down and 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:04.920 create some thing new, great, an entirely different system. Because 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:10.399 he just he describes the political liberals as being complicit 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:11.560 with capitalism. 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.880 He does, that's right, And so what. 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.680 That suggests is that he wants he wants to dismantle 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.680 the whole apparatus and start over again. Right now. Of course, 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.680 what that what the starting over again looks like, is 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.480 a lot trickier than dismantling the current one. But that's 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.120 but that's what he that's basically what he means by leftism. 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:34.320 That's that how you read it. 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.200 Yeah, so he's not talking about theological leftism, although we 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:40.560 see that seep in here at times. 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:42.120 It's more political. 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:44.680 So sometimes we tend to think, well, those to the 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.920 right of us wherever we are, are fundamentalists, and those 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:50.200 a little bit to the left of us we might 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:54.800 call liberals or leftists. He is way to the left 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:59.640 politically than probably most, if almost any, at least in 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:01.000 the evangelical world. 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.520 So you functionally, and. 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:05.560 I think he would be far to the left of 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:07.400 most in the Democratic Party. 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.480 Yeah, he has a chapter white, the Democratic Party doesn't 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.119 go far enough. We'll get to that why classical liberalism 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:14.400 doesn't go far enough. 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:19.240 Yeah, I mean classical liberalism. He wants very. 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.080 Little nothing to do with. 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.599 Okay, so he says here on page sixty seven, leftism 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:28.320 would mean either heavy taxes on or on heavy taxes 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:31.360 on or common ownership of the sort of property that 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.880 produces wealth. So he really means socialism, but in many 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:39.880 ways is also very favorable at times towards Marxism. So 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.760 that's the kind of leftism that he seems. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.720 To be arguing, just the leftist view, instead of a 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:53.520 market economy where it's individuals, you know, doing mutually beneficial exchanges. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.920 It's more of the I think the idea that the 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:00.520 mean what do he calls it? The the means of 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:06.400 producing our stuff is commonly owned, right and can't and 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.919 can't then the ownership of those, as Mars describe, the 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:15.279 means of production can't be owned by individuals who concentrate 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.479 their wealth and their ownership by by virtue of that. 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.640 So it's it's it's either state state owned, but more 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.640 owned and common more owned by the public is what 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:27.239 they're after. 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:29.680 We're going to offer some of our critique of that, 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:31.960 but I'd love to know what you think the author 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:33.760 gets right. Whenever I read a book like this, and 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.919 my first instinct is I'm going to take issue with 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.039 this book, I look for areas I have common ground, 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:41.640 areas that are positive errors I can learn from. 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.159 So what do you think the author gets right? 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.440 I think there are there are a number of things. 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.560 First on my list is the biblical mandate to care 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:55.040 for the poor. Okay, the biblical mandate to to make 0:05:55.120 --> 0:06:00.320 sure that our policies and are you know, are public 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:06.359 policy doesn't disadvantage further the least among us. And I 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.440 think that that's a biblical mandate that I think he 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:13.040 gets right. The other one that I think I think 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.760 is really strong that I think he gets right, and 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.000 this is a critique of capitalism in general, is it 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.040 does lead to over consumption. I mean, I think we 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:27.240 all could we all could benefit from de accumulating the 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.240 amount of stuff that we have. In fact, one of 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:32.720 my worst nightmares is that, you know, my wife and 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.000 I are going to pass prematurely and leave our kids 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.960 to sort all that out, you know, And God forbid. Uh. 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.400 I think he rightly recognizes the importance of politics, and 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:44.240 I think he gets the definition of that right, He 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:47.720 gets that exactly right. Yeah, And this is why we've 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.120 said before, Sean, that this is what makes politics fundamentally 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:55.240 a moral enterprise, because it's how we order our lives together, 0:06:55.960 --> 0:07:00.400 and economics is intertwined with that, because he could nomics 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:02.960 to go a step further, is how we balance the 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.960 burdens and benefits of how we order our lives together 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.600 in community. Those are those are all have significant moral overtones. 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.040 And I think he gets that right, you know, and 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.240 I love you know. Towards the end, uh, he says, 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.120 you know, the essence of Christian faith is that we're 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.280 all sinners in need of grace. And if you know, 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.840 being a Christian doesn't make doesn't make you feel like 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.560 you're on top of things. It actually makes you feel 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.440 like you're you're under things and in and in need 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:36.280 of grace. He points out, we live in a moral universe, 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.400 which she's right, there more morality. I think he's right 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.960 that God has embedded a moral framework into the nature 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:49.000 of reality, and our our intuitions every day tell us 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.120 that that's true. And every time somebody is the victim 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:57.640 of injustice, your relativism goes out the window because people say, no, 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:02.880 I've been wronged. And for the relativist, you know, the 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.920 giant says who question looms large but not but not 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.440 for Christmas. You know, ultimately we live in a moral 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:16.320 universe because God said these things are right, are wrong? Uh, 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:18.920 I mean he's he offers a critique. He doesn't have 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:23.920 a lot of tolerance for woke stuff, which which I appreciate. Uh. 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.800 He he points out, you know, scientism, you know he has, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.000 he has let's just say he doesn't have his his 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.600 faith in science to be able to take over what 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.720 would be lacking if you put religious faith on the 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:45.040 back burner is not high. So he's you know, he 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.800 is definitely that he's not a secularist. He is. I mean, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.120 I think his his Christian faith I think is real. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.200 Uh And I think as a result of that, he 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.440 gets a lot of he gets he gets some things right. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:08:59.080 You got other things you want to. 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.280 Say, Yeah, that's a great list. That's pretty much many 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.360 of the common ones that I had. His definition of 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.360 politics is he says, it's just morality is practiced by 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.000 more than one person. As humans, we need each other. 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.000 Thus we have to continue to hash out how we'll 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.959 live together. And so he agrees with us. We differ 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.719 on his political views, but he's basically saying we need 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:20.760 to think biblically about politics and politics as one way 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.720 we love our neighbor. We would agree with that approach, 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.240 differ on the practice, which we'll get to. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.920 And I think we might actually differ on some of 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:29.800 the ends. 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.160 Okays, I think that's right. 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.480 We would definitely differ on many of the means to 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:37.800 accomplish those ends. In the past, I think we've said 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:43.840 that generally there's widespread agreement on the ends of what 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:49.160 a political economy should look like. I'm not so sure 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.120 we will always agree on the ends for this. 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:54.920 Fair enough, I think that's I think that's right, and 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.240 we'll get to some of that. He says, For example, 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.880 we live in a moral universe. He writes us on 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.240 page seventy eight. You know, I did think you see 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.360 coming through this idea. He goes that morality is not 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.680 optional for Christians, and he says, we live in a 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.079 moral universe. This is one of the points that Christians 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.960 of all stripes ought to agree about agree. We think 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:20.040 that both morality existence itself emanate from God's nature. But 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:24.160 as a good leftist, God's nature seems to be reduced 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.360 towards love, which is love, And I go, yeah, it's love, 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.960 it's also justice, and if you go too far to 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.480 the right, it's just justice. In this case, too far 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.960 to the left seems to just be love. I think 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.240 we need to balance that out. But insofar as we 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.880 live in a moral universe, he says, morality, at least 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.160 for Christians, is not an add on, It's part of 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:47.520 the fabric of the universe. Amen to that, he says 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:52.000 scientism tends to reduce us to selfish survival machines. I'm 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.960 reading this going amen. So there's plenty we can be 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.360 positive about. But in some ways, he says, this is 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.320 really more of an essay than a book. And I 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.880 thought it was fascinating because he's kind of given a testimony, 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.800 like somebody could stand up give a testimony, even evangelical church, 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.680 about how we left kind of the right leaning Republican Party, 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:16.040 remained a Christian in the way he describes it, and 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.280 now is on the left. So I'm curious what you 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.160 make of his conversion story and any points that jumped 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:23.240 out as significant to you. 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:29.079 Well, it seemed his conversion quote political conversion, was because 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.360 he read the Sermon on the Mount and was deeply, 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:36.800 deeply impacted by that, and I think saw, you know, 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.960 saw a whole host of things that had implications for 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:44.079 him in terms of politics and economics. Now, I think 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.080 we can will debate a bit with some of the 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.080 takes that he had takeaways from the Sermon on the Mount, 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:55.400 but I think that's basically what got him sort of 0:11:55.440 --> 0:12:02.480 started on this leftward trend. And I wonder you know, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:04.880 this is a point we've made in the past when 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.959 we've talked about the intersection of Christian faith and politics 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:14.520 and economics. Is is the political political economic world in 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:19.800 which the Bible was written was so different absolute And 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.160 that's why I think we've got to be very careful 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:27.679 in how we how we do any direct application from 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.480 the Biblical text, namely things like the Sermon on them 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:36.760 out to political economy today. So there's there are, I mean, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:41.120 there's just a whole host of really significant differences that 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.760 have to be taken into account. I mean, the big 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.840 one is that you know, if you would have asked 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.360 if you would ask the average person in the first 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:54.040 century who they were going to vote for. We have 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:58.320 a vote, what do we vote? We're voting. We're voting 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.520 for Caesar or not. You know, you don't vote for season, 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:07.120 you lose your head. And you know, economics was completely different. 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.760 It was a zero sum economic world, and so there 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.240 was this necessary connection between winners and losers, and people 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:21.000 were stuck in the economic strata that they were born into. Nobody, 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.880 you know, nobody. There were no rags to riches stories 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.200 in the ancient world. Lots of the opposite, as the 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:32.840 Prodigal Sun shows. But you have to take those differences 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.200 into account. Now we'll talk more about how he reaches 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:36.559 somewhere on the mount in a bit. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.800 So some of the things jumped out on page one. 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.080 The title is testifying, and he talks about growing up 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:51.040 in a fundamentalist, evangelical, Pentecostal, Calvinist background. No, I don't 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.480 want to it's quite a combination, it is, and my 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:55.400 point is not to pick on any one of those. 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.040 But I've written a book on deconstruction and just this 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.520 is you hear this over and over again when people 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:06.200 move to atheism, agnosticism, progressive Christianity. There's very much a 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.640 reaction against the way somebody was raised. 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.439 And I think what this sounds to me like he 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.880 is the sub theme underneath this is religious rigidity. 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.240 I think that's right, and that's a part of the 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.240 theme that we hear understandably so, but in his mind 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.600 he's like, instead of chucking the faith, I want to 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.240 hold on to Jesus, but re envision what that looks 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:33.600 like politically and economically is how he approaches this. So 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:35.720 we don't need to talk about this, but he walks 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.239 through how he assumed that the Republican Party was exactly 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:41.760 what it meant to be a Christian. He's concerned about 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:46.160 the wedding between the two. He taught his case of 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.280 how he went left as he feels like President Barack Obama, 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:54.520 which is completely attacked by Christians in terms of being 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.720 a secret Muslim and his character, et cetera. The economic 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.800 crash of two thousand an eight. He talks a lot 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:06.840 about that, talks about Michael Brown and uh uh Timir 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.600 Rice and some of these stories Eric Garner Freddie Gray 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.600 that started to merging about twenty twelve twenty thirteen really 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.680 shaped him and he felt like concerns about wokeness and 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.560 CRT were just a diversion from the issue Donald Trump 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.720 put him over the top. He's like, once people can 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.520 support Donald Trump and call themselves Christians, I'm out the 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.160 me too movement, the pandemic these I'm trying to get 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.240 people a sense of and we're not gonna go into 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.400 this narrative, but they have a sense of where he 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.360 came from and how it frames where he's at. 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:39.600 Now. 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.080 You can sort of see sort of one domino falling 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.120 after another, and he gets he gets to you get 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.800 to the end of the dominoes, and you know, there's 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.000 there's not there's not much left that he was that 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.280 he was wanting to embrace, except for I think he 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.560 still still embraced the scriptures. He still embraced his relationship 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.320 to Jesus. Now, I think we read the scriptures. We 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:06.040 read the scriptures quite differently as a result of that, 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.280 and I think we can I mean, we all have 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:12.200 our lenses through which we we read the scriptures. Uh, 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.040 And I think some let's let's just say, I think 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:21.320 some political economic lenses are are stronger than others for 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.320 for some people. Sure, And I think the I think 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.640 with you know, it's less clear Sean, you know which 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:33.200 came first, you know, the political reorientation or. 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:35.200 That's an interesting question. 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.720 I think I think for him, the Sermon on the 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.200 Mount probably came first, and that was the first, that 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.600 was what kicked off the dominoes falling. Uh. But it's 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.880 not as it's not as clear that he continued to 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:53.520 read the scriptures. I think through you know, without without 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.840 those pretty strong left cleaning lenses. 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.120 You're right, And some of what he talks about here 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.640 in the Sermon of the Mount, it suggested a life 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.919 that was available to me and to them. I felt 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.800 the possibility of universal solidarity as opposed to this kind 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.840 of Darwinian winners and losers approach on the right. 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:15.000 You had this. 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.879 Universal solidarity we should lean into, which is a theme 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.560 we always hear on the left. 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:20.920 So he's drawn in by that. 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:21.639 Now. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:22.879 One thing he talks about. 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:24.840 Yeah, which is I think just another way of saying 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.920 that what you had mentioned earlier is that the left 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.920 tends to emphasize love, the right tends to emphasize justice. 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.760 And you know that's I think that's another way of 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.080 saying some of those same things. 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.120 Right, Okay, fair enough, So we're we're gonna come back 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.880 to some of the issues that we've just peppered on here. 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.480 But early in the book, I mean, page twenty five, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.840 he raises some of the questions of what this means 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:55.920 for the LGBTQ conversation, and part of his leftism which 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.000 seems to always occur in my book, maybe someone could 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.240 find except to this involves a rejection of the historic 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:09.000 Christian view of sex and marriage and embracing LGBTQ relationships 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.879 and identities. Now, he three times says in the book, 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.760 on different pages twenty five, fifty eight, and eighty six, 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.120 that we know something by its fruit, and it says 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.600 sometimes theological arguments you can only settle by observations. So 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.920 he's talking about certain biblical arguments about sex and marriage, 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.320 and he says, kind of, you know, once I was 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.639 in several churches where some people who what is he 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.440 described as lesbians were not able to serve. He goes, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.080 for me, that's the end of the debate, that people 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.040 say we want to obey Jesus, but some people couldn't serve. 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:45.760 And then he says, you know that some people would 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:48.200 stand in the way of a gay person's right to marry. 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:50.840 I'm out now. I have a lot of thoughts on this. 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:52.800 I don't want to get two sidetracked, but any do 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:53.719 you want to weigh in on this? 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.959 Well, again, like you, I'm not particularly surprised that this 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.120 is where he went. It's not a central part of 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.119 what he's dealing with. In my view, this is just 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.800 a this is another domino that fell and not it's 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.160 not it's not a surprise at all that it's one 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:15.640 that did. And the you know, the I think part 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:22.040 of the left leaning culture is you know, and this 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.879 emphasis on inclusion and when he talked to emphasis on 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.840 sort of universal solidarity is I think another way of 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.840 saying that it's trying to be as inclusive as possible, 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.760 and I think it. I'm not I'm not surprised, and 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.359 I want to I want to be careful that we 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.439 don't we don't get the theological cart before the horse 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:52.399 on this, because our theology, our ideas, determine how we act. 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:54.560 They should they should now. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:59.560 And it doesn't he We're not not leaving room for 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.879 places where the church has failed, and I think the 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.360 church has failed in some respects to be to show 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.159 the love of Christ to the LGBTQ community. Now, I 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.960 think we can do that without abandoning our convictions either. 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.920 But and it's true that there's some in the LGBTQ 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:23.600 community who see our convictions as the same thing as 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.400 not being loving towards them. Sure, and I think that's 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.040 I think that's my guess is that's probably what some 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.680 of what he means by their fruits. 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.000 I agree, But he's adopted a certain view, a cultural 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.919 understanding of love being affirmation, which I think is decidedly 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.480 not biblical. And three times he says, by your fruits 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:50.800 you shall know them. Well, what is the scriptures talking about? 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.240 Is what is the point being made here? It's the 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.720 fruit of repentance. It's the fruit of obedience. Look in 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.879 the Sermon of the Mountain again five through seven. I 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.720 ironically in Matthew chapter seven, it's very clear that we 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.000 judge a fruit by we judge a tree by its fruit. 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:10.399 In that context, it's the fruit of obedience, it's the 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:14.439 fruit of lawfulness, and it's the fruit of repentance. And 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.160 so three times he mistakes this argument. 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:18.800 If people have been doing this, I've responded this for 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.640 probably a decade and a half now, and people continue 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.960 to advance this and so to me, maybe this is 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.160 uncharitable Scott. But when somebody says we believe in biblical 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:33.359 authority and keeps advancing such a bad argument, it makes 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.960 me question the commitment to biblical authority and at least 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:42.040 say on this issue, something is overriding biblical authority from 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:46.640 the culture. That's the case that I would make, all right, 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.119 So he says that he goes after the Democratic Party 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.680 as not going far enough, which I just thought was interesting. 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:55.880 You often hear it from the right, but to hear 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.560 it from the left, their critique is going to be 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.440 different from the right. Why does he say the Democratic 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:02.960 Party doesn't go far enough? 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.679 Because it's it's in collusion with capitalism exactly. 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:12.159 That's the point, and in his view, are our capitalist system. 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:17.000 And again remember he uses the term capitalism. I don't 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.960 like that term because but I'm going to use it 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:21.840 because that's what he did. 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:23.000 But just say, just to. 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.159 Remind our listeners that Karl Marx coined that term and 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:31.000 it was intended pejoratively at the at emerging market systems. 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:35.320 So I would prefer market based economies, you know things 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:39.880 market systems. But that's a little more unwieldy to say, 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.480 so we'll just go we'll go with capitalism for now. 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:47.080 With that caveat enough. But I think he, you know, 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:53.560 in his view, any anything that's tainted by capitalism is 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:59.320 morally tainted. And what I what I don't get is 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:04.240 I'm sure how you can live in the world without 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:08.520 being in some form of collusion with capitalism if you 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:13.520 were buying and selling things on the open market. 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.119 How such as a book? 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:18.880 You know, market exchanges are sort of the way we 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:23.000 you know, the way we get out of subsistence level 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.720 where we produce everything that we own and we'll come back. 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:30.399 We'll come back to that, yeah too. But I mean 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:33.680