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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Maybe this is uncharitable, Scott, But when somebody says we

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Speaker 2: believe in biblical authority and keeps advancing such a bad argument,

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Speaker 2: it makes me question the commitment to biblical authority and

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Speaker 2: at least say on this issue, something is overriding biblical

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Speaker 2: authority from the culture.

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Speaker 3: Being a Christian doesn't make you feel like you're on

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Speaker 3: top of things. It actually makes you feel like you're

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Speaker 3: under things and in need of grace.

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Speaker 2: I get why people are drawn to the left. I

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Speaker 2: understand it at the very end. Though why I think

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Speaker 2: I'm not is that there's no other way to put it.

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Speaker 2: Then it's just divorced from reality. Should Christians be leftists?

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Speaker 2: Can leftism consistently be wed with a Christian worldview? And

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Speaker 2: is leftism gaining ground in the church and in the culture?

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Speaker 2: Scott Ray, We've got a fascinating new book we're going

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Speaker 2: to do a review on by Phil Christman called Why

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Speaker 2: Christians Should should be Leftists?

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Speaker 1: You ready, rock and roll?

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Speaker 3: I'm ready. Let's get to it all right.

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Speaker 2: So this is really more of an essay than it

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Speaker 2: is a book. It's kind of a testimony of his experience,

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Speaker 2: which we'll get to. But before we dive into the

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Speaker 2: case that he makes. What does the author mean by leftism?

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Speaker 2: What are we talking about here.

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Speaker 3: Well, he distinguishes it from liberalism, which he's referred to

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Speaker 3: political liberalism there as opposed to Just to be clear

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Speaker 3: for our listeners, the term classic liberalism is different than

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Speaker 3: political liberalism, which is different than leftism. Okay, The classic

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Speaker 3: classic liberal tradition is what our founding fathers had in

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Speaker 3: mind of individual rights, free expression, limited government, you know,

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Speaker 3: things things like that that form I think sort of

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Speaker 3: the heart and soul of political conservatism today. Political liberalism

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Speaker 3: is a different, different view of that which takes a

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Speaker 3: larger view for the state, heavier taxes, more services, things

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Speaker 3: like what we might call democratic socialism, in which we

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Speaker 3: see in Scandinavia and parts of Europe, where it's just

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Speaker 3: a different it's a different arrangement where taxes are higher,

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Speaker 3: service and services are more provided, and there's less space

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Speaker 3: for for what we call mediating institutions that stand between

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Speaker 3: the state and the individuals. Leftism is political liberalism on steroids, okay.

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Speaker 3: And the leftism that he's describing here is I think,

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Speaker 3: sort of heavy on deconstructing the institutions, mainly of the

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Speaker 3: market economy where he does where the liberal I would say,

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Speaker 3: political liberals want to want to they want to remodel

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Speaker 3: the house. Leftists want to tear the house down and

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Speaker 3: create some thing new, great, an entirely different system. Because

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Speaker 3: he just he describes the political liberals as being complicit

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Speaker 3: with capitalism.

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Speaker 1: He does, that's right, And so what.

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Speaker 3: That suggests is that he wants he wants to dismantle

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Speaker 3: the whole apparatus and start over again. Right now. Of course,

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Speaker 3: what that what the starting over again looks like, is

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Speaker 3: a lot trickier than dismantling the current one. But that's

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Speaker 3: but that's what he that's basically what he means by leftism.

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Speaker 3: That's that how you read it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's not talking about theological leftism, although we

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Speaker 2: see that seep in here at times.

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Speaker 1: It's more political.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes we tend to think, well, those to the

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Speaker 2: right of us wherever we are, are fundamentalists, and those

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Speaker 2: a little bit to the left of us we might

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Speaker 2: call liberals or leftists. He is way to the left

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Speaker 2: politically than probably most, if almost any, at least in

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Speaker 2: the evangelical world.

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Speaker 1: So you functionally, and.

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Speaker 3: I think he would be far to the left of

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Speaker 3: most in the Democratic Party.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he has a chapter white, the Democratic Party doesn't

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Speaker 2: go far enough. We'll get to that why classical liberalism

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Speaker 2: doesn't go far enough.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean classical liberalism. He wants very.

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Speaker 1: Little nothing to do with.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so he says here on page sixty seven, leftism

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Speaker 2: would mean either heavy taxes on or on heavy taxes

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Speaker 2: on or common ownership of the sort of property that

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Speaker 2: produces wealth. So he really means socialism, but in many

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Speaker 2: ways is also very favorable at times towards Marxism. So

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Speaker 2: that's the kind of leftism that he seems.

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Speaker 3: To be arguing, just the leftist view, instead of a

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Speaker 3: market economy where it's individuals, you know, doing mutually beneficial exchanges.

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Speaker 3: It's more of the I think the idea that the

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Speaker 3: mean what do he calls it? The the means of

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Speaker 3: producing our stuff is commonly owned, right and can't and

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Speaker 3: can't then the ownership of those, as Mars describe, the

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Speaker 3: means of production can't be owned by individuals who concentrate

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Speaker 3: their wealth and their ownership by by virtue of that.

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Speaker 3: So it's it's it's either state state owned, but more

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Speaker 3: owned and common more owned by the public is what

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Speaker 3: they're after.

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Speaker 2: We're going to offer some of our critique of that,

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Speaker 2: but I'd love to know what you think the author

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Speaker 2: gets right. Whenever I read a book like this, and

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Speaker 2: my first instinct is I'm going to take issue with

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Speaker 2: this book, I look for areas I have common ground,

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Speaker 2: areas that are positive errors I can learn from.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think the author gets right?

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Speaker 3: I think there are there are a number of things.

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Speaker 3: First on my list is the biblical mandate to care

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Speaker 3: for the poor. Okay, the biblical mandate to to make

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Speaker 3: sure that our policies and are you know, are public

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Speaker 3: policy doesn't disadvantage further the least among us. And I

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Speaker 3: think that that's a biblical mandate that I think he

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Speaker 3: gets right. The other one that I think I think

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Speaker 3: is really strong that I think he gets right, and

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Speaker 3: this is a critique of capitalism in general, is it

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Speaker 3: does lead to over consumption. I mean, I think we

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Speaker 3: all could we all could benefit from de accumulating the

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Speaker 3: amount of stuff that we have. In fact, one of

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Speaker 3: my worst nightmares is that, you know, my wife and

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Speaker 3: I are going to pass prematurely and leave our kids

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Speaker 3: to sort all that out, you know, And God forbid. Uh.

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Speaker 3: I think he rightly recognizes the importance of politics, and

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Speaker 3: I think he gets the definition of that right, He

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Speaker 3: gets that exactly right. Yeah, And this is why we've

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Speaker 3: said before, Sean, that this is what makes politics fundamentally

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Speaker 3: a moral enterprise, because it's how we order our lives together,

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Speaker 3: and economics is intertwined with that, because he could nomics

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Speaker 3: to go a step further, is how we balance the

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Speaker 3: burdens and benefits of how we order our lives together

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Speaker 3: in community. Those are those are all have significant moral overtones.

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Speaker 3: And I think he gets that right, you know, and

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Speaker 3: I love you know. Towards the end, uh, he says,

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Speaker 3: you know, the essence of Christian faith is that we're

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Speaker 3: all sinners in need of grace. And if you know,

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Speaker 3: being a Christian doesn't make doesn't make you feel like

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Speaker 3: you're on top of things. It actually makes you feel

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Speaker 3: like you're you're under things and in and in need

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Speaker 3: of grace. He points out, we live in a moral universe,

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Speaker 3: which she's right, there more morality. I think he's right

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Speaker 3: that God has embedded a moral framework into the nature

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Speaker 3: of reality, and our our intuitions every day tell us

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Speaker 3: that that's true. And every time somebody is the victim

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Speaker 3: of injustice, your relativism goes out the window because people say, no,

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Speaker 3: I've been wronged. And for the relativist, you know, the

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Speaker 3: giant says who question looms large but not but not

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Speaker 3: for Christmas. You know, ultimately we live in a moral

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Speaker 3: universe because God said these things are right, are wrong? Uh,

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Speaker 3: I mean he's he offers a critique. He doesn't have

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Speaker 3: a lot of tolerance for woke stuff, which which I appreciate. Uh.

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Speaker 3: He he points out, you know, scientism, you know he has,

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Speaker 3: he has let's just say he doesn't have his his

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Speaker 3: faith in science to be able to take over what

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Speaker 3: would be lacking if you put religious faith on the

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Speaker 3: back burner is not high. So he's you know, he

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Speaker 3: is definitely that he's not a secularist. He is. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think his his Christian faith I think is real.

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Speaker 3: Uh And I think as a result of that, he

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Speaker 3: gets a lot of he gets he gets some things right.

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Speaker 3: You got other things you want to.

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Speaker 2: Say, Yeah, that's a great list. That's pretty much many

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Speaker 2: of the common ones that I had. His definition of

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Speaker 2: politics is he says, it's just morality is practiced by

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Speaker 2: more than one person. As humans, we need each other.

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Speaker 2: Thus we have to continue to hash out how we'll

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Speaker 2: live together. And so he agrees with us. We differ

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Speaker 2: on his political views, but he's basically saying we need

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Speaker 2: to think biblically about politics and politics as one way

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Speaker 2: we love our neighbor. We would agree with that approach,

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Speaker 2: differ on the practice, which we'll get to.

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Speaker 3: And I think we might actually differ on some of

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Speaker 3: the ends.

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Speaker 1: Okays, I think that's right.

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Speaker 3: We would definitely differ on many of the means to

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Speaker 3: accomplish those ends. In the past, I think we've said

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Speaker 3: that generally there's widespread agreement on the ends of what

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Speaker 3: a political economy should look like. I'm not so sure

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Speaker 3: we will always agree on the ends for this.

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Speaker 2: Fair enough, I think that's I think that's right, and

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Speaker 2: we'll get to some of that. He says, For example,

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Speaker 2: we live in a moral universe. He writes us on

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Speaker 2: page seventy eight. You know, I did think you see

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Speaker 2: coming through this idea. He goes that morality is not

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Speaker 2: optional for Christians, and he says, we live in a

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Speaker 2: moral universe. This is one of the points that Christians

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Speaker 2: of all stripes ought to agree about agree. We think

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Speaker 2: that both morality existence itself emanate from God's nature. But

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Speaker 2: as a good leftist, God's nature seems to be reduced

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Speaker 2: towards love, which is love, And I go, yeah, it's love,

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Speaker 2: it's also justice, and if you go too far to

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Speaker 2: the right, it's just justice. In this case, too far

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Speaker 2: to the left seems to just be love. I think

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Speaker 2: we need to balance that out. But insofar as we

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Speaker 2: live in a moral universe, he says, morality, at least

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Speaker 2: for Christians, is not an add on, It's part of

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Speaker 2: the fabric of the universe. Amen to that, he says

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Speaker 2: scientism tends to reduce us to selfish survival machines. I'm

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Speaker 2: reading this going amen. So there's plenty we can be

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Speaker 2: positive about. But in some ways, he says, this is

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Speaker 2: really more of an essay than a book. And I

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Speaker 2: thought it was fascinating because he's kind of given a testimony,

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Speaker 2: like somebody could stand up give a testimony, even evangelical church,

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Speaker 2: about how we left kind of the right leaning Republican Party,

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Speaker 2: remained a Christian in the way he describes it, and

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Speaker 2: now is on the left. So I'm curious what you

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Speaker 2: make of his conversion story and any points that jumped

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Speaker 2: out as significant to you.

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Speaker 3: Well, it seemed his conversion quote political conversion, was because

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Speaker 3: he read the Sermon on the Mount and was deeply,

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Speaker 3: deeply impacted by that, and I think saw, you know,

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Speaker 3: saw a whole host of things that had implications for

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Speaker 3: him in terms of politics and economics. Now, I think

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Speaker 3: we can will debate a bit with some of the

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Speaker 3: takes that he had takeaways from the Sermon on the Mount,

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Speaker 3: but I think that's basically what got him sort of

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Speaker 3: started on this leftward trend. And I wonder you know,

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Speaker 3: this is a point we've made in the past when

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Speaker 3: we've talked about the intersection of Christian faith and politics

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Speaker 3: and economics. Is is the political political economic world in

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Speaker 3: which the Bible was written was so different absolute And

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Speaker 3: that's why I think we've got to be very careful

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Speaker 3: in how we how we do any direct application from

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Speaker 3: the Biblical text, namely things like the Sermon on them

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Speaker 3: out to political economy today. So there's there are, I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's just a whole host of really significant differences that

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Speaker 3: have to be taken into account. I mean, the big

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Speaker 3: one is that you know, if you would have asked

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Speaker 3: if you would ask the average person in the first

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Speaker 3: century who they were going to vote for. We have

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Speaker 3: a vote, what do we vote? We're voting. We're voting

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Speaker 3: for Caesar or not. You know, you don't vote for season,

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Speaker 3: you lose your head. And you know, economics was completely different.

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Speaker 3: It was a zero sum economic world, and so there

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Speaker 3: was this necessary connection between winners and losers, and people

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Speaker 3: were stuck in the economic strata that they were born into. Nobody,

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Speaker 3: you know, nobody. There were no rags to riches stories

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Speaker 3: in the ancient world. Lots of the opposite, as the

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Speaker 3: Prodigal Sun shows. But you have to take those differences

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Speaker 3: into account. Now we'll talk more about how he reaches

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Speaker 3: somewhere on the mount in a bit.

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Speaker 2: So some of the things jumped out on page one.

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Speaker 2: The title is testifying, and he talks about growing up

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Speaker 2: in a fundamentalist, evangelical, Pentecostal, Calvinist background. No, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to it's quite a combination, it is, and my

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Speaker 2: point is not to pick on any one of those.

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Speaker 2: But I've written a book on deconstruction and just this

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Speaker 2: is you hear this over and over again when people

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Speaker 2: move to atheism, agnosticism, progressive Christianity. There's very much a

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Speaker 2: reaction against the way somebody was raised.

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Speaker 3: And I think what this sounds to me like he

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Speaker 3: is the sub theme underneath this is religious rigidity.

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Speaker 2: I think that's right, and that's a part of the

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Speaker 2: theme that we hear understandably so, but in his mind

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Speaker 2: he's like, instead of chucking the faith, I want to

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Speaker 2: hold on to Jesus, but re envision what that looks

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Speaker 2: like politically and economically is how he approaches this. So

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Speaker 2: we don't need to talk about this, but he walks

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Speaker 2: through how he assumed that the Republican Party was exactly

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Speaker 2: what it meant to be a Christian. He's concerned about

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Speaker 2: the wedding between the two. He taught his case of

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Speaker 2: how he went left as he feels like President Barack Obama,

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Speaker 2: which is completely attacked by Christians in terms of being

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Speaker 2: a secret Muslim and his character, et cetera. The economic

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Speaker 2: crash of two thousand an eight. He talks a lot

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Speaker 2: about that, talks about Michael Brown and uh uh Timir

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Speaker 2: Rice and some of these stories Eric Garner Freddie Gray

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Speaker 2: that started to merging about twenty twelve twenty thirteen really

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Speaker 2: shaped him and he felt like concerns about wokeness and

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Speaker 2: CRT were just a diversion from the issue Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: put him over the top. He's like, once people can

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Speaker 2: support Donald Trump and call themselves Christians, I'm out the

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Speaker 2: me too movement, the pandemic these I'm trying to get

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Speaker 2: people a sense of and we're not gonna go into

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Speaker 2: this narrative, but they have a sense of where he

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Speaker 2: came from and how it frames where he's at.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: You can sort of see sort of one domino falling

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Speaker 3: after another, and he gets he gets to you get

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Speaker 3: to the end of the dominoes, and you know, there's

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Speaker 3: there's not there's not much left that he was that

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Speaker 3: he was wanting to embrace, except for I think he

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Speaker 3: still still embraced the scriptures. He still embraced his relationship

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Speaker 3: to Jesus. Now, I think we read the scriptures. We

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Speaker 3: read the scriptures quite differently as a result of that,

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Speaker 3: and I think we can I mean, we all have

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Speaker 3: our lenses through which we we read the scriptures. Uh,

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Speaker 3: And I think some let's let's just say, I think

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Speaker 3: some political economic lenses are are stronger than others for

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Speaker 3: for some people. Sure, And I think the I think

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Speaker 3: with you know, it's less clear Sean, you know which

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Speaker 3: came first, you know, the political reorientation or.

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Speaker 1: That's an interesting question.

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Speaker 3: I think I think for him, the Sermon on the

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Speaker 3: Mount probably came first, and that was the first, that

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Speaker 3: was what kicked off the dominoes falling. Uh. But it's

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Speaker 3: not as it's not as clear that he continued to

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Speaker 3: read the scriptures. I think through you know, without without

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Speaker 3: those pretty strong left cleaning lenses.

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Speaker 2: You're right, And some of what he talks about here

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Speaker 2: in the Sermon of the Mount, it suggested a life

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Speaker 2: that was available to me and to them. I felt

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Speaker 2: the possibility of universal solidarity as opposed to this kind

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Speaker 2: of Darwinian winners and losers approach on the right.

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Speaker 1: You had this.

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Speaker 2: Universal solidarity we should lean into, which is a theme

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Speaker 2: we always hear on the left.

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Speaker 1: So he's drawn in by that.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: One thing he talks about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is I think just another way of saying

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Speaker 3: that what you had mentioned earlier is that the left

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Speaker 3: tends to emphasize love, the right tends to emphasize justice.

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Speaker 3: And you know that's I think that's another way of

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Speaker 3: saying some of those same things.

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay, fair enough, So we're we're gonna come back

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Speaker 2: to some of the issues that we've just peppered on here.

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Speaker 2: But early in the book, I mean, page twenty five,

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Speaker 2: he raises some of the questions of what this means

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Speaker 2: for the LGBTQ conversation, and part of his leftism which

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Speaker 2: seems to always occur in my book, maybe someone could

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Speaker 2: find except to this involves a rejection of the historic

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Speaker 2: Christian view of sex and marriage and embracing LGBTQ relationships

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Speaker 2: and identities. Now, he three times says in the book,

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Speaker 2: on different pages twenty five, fifty eight, and eighty six,

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Speaker 2: that we know something by its fruit, and it says

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Speaker 2: sometimes theological arguments you can only settle by observations. So

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Speaker 2: he's talking about certain biblical arguments about sex and marriage,

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Speaker 2: and he says, kind of, you know, once I was

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Speaker 2: in several churches where some people who what is he

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Speaker 2: described as lesbians were not able to serve. He goes,

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Speaker 2: for me, that's the end of the debate, that people

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Speaker 2: say we want to obey Jesus, but some people couldn't serve.

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Speaker 2: And then he says, you know that some people would

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Speaker 2: stand in the way of a gay person's right to marry.

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Speaker 2: I'm out now. I have a lot of thoughts on this.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to get two sidetracked, but any do

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Speaker 2: you want to weigh in on this?

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Speaker 3: Well, again, like you, I'm not particularly surprised that this

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Speaker 3: is where he went. It's not a central part of

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Speaker 3: what he's dealing with. In my view, this is just

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Speaker 3: a this is another domino that fell and not it's

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Speaker 3: not it's not a surprise at all that it's one

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Speaker 3: that did. And the you know, the I think part

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Speaker 3: of the left leaning culture is you know, and this

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Speaker 3: emphasis on inclusion and when he talked to emphasis on

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Speaker 3: sort of universal solidarity is I think another way of

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Speaker 3: saying that it's trying to be as inclusive as possible,

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Speaker 3: and I think it. I'm not I'm not surprised, and

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Speaker 3: I want to I want to be careful that we

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Speaker 3: don't we don't get the theological cart before the horse

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Speaker 3: on this, because our theology, our ideas, determine how we act.

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Speaker 1: They should they should now.

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Speaker 3: And it doesn't he We're not not leaving room for

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Speaker 3: places where the church has failed, and I think the

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Speaker 3: church has failed in some respects to be to show

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Speaker 3: the love of Christ to the LGBTQ community. Now, I

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Speaker 3: think we can do that without abandoning our convictions either.

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Speaker 3: But and it's true that there's some in the LGBTQ

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Speaker 3: community who see our convictions as the same thing as

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Speaker 3: not being loving towards them. Sure, and I think that's

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Speaker 3: I think that's my guess is that's probably what some

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Speaker 3: of what he means by their fruits.

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Speaker 1: I agree, But he's adopted a certain view, a cultural

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Speaker 1: understanding of love being affirmation, which I think is decidedly

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Speaker 1: not biblical. And three times he says, by your fruits

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Speaker 1: you shall know them. Well, what is the scriptures talking about?

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Speaker 1: Is what is the point being made here? It's the

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Speaker 1: fruit of repentance. It's the fruit of obedience. Look in

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Speaker 1: the Sermon of the Mountain again five through seven. I

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Speaker 1: ironically in Matthew chapter seven, it's very clear that we

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Speaker 1: judge a fruit by we judge a tree by its fruit.

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Speaker 1: In that context, it's the fruit of obedience, it's the

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Speaker 1: fruit of lawfulness, and it's the fruit of repentance. And

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Speaker 1: so three times he mistakes this argument.

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Speaker 2: If people have been doing this, I've responded this for

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Speaker 2: probably a decade and a half now, and people continue

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Speaker 2: to advance this and so to me, maybe this is

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Speaker 2: uncharitable Scott. But when somebody says we believe in biblical

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Speaker 2: authority and keeps advancing such a bad argument, it makes

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Speaker 2: me question the commitment to biblical authority and at least

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Speaker 2: say on this issue, something is overriding biblical authority from

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Speaker 2: the culture. That's the case that I would make, all right,

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Speaker 2: So he says that he goes after the Democratic Party

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Speaker 2: as not going far enough, which I just thought was interesting.

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Speaker 2: You often hear it from the right, but to hear

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Speaker 2: it from the left, their critique is going to be

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Speaker 2: different from the right. Why does he say the Democratic

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Speaker 2: Party doesn't go far enough?

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Speaker 1: Because it's it's in collusion with capitalism exactly.

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Speaker 3: That's the point, and in his view, are our capitalist system.

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Speaker 3: And again remember he uses the term capitalism. I don't

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Speaker 3: like that term because but I'm going to use it

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Speaker 3: because that's what he did.

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Speaker 1: But just say, just to.

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Speaker 3: Remind our listeners that Karl Marx coined that term and

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Speaker 3: it was intended pejoratively at the at emerging market systems.

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Speaker 3: So I would prefer market based economies, you know things

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Speaker 3: market systems. But that's a little more unwieldy to say,

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Speaker 3: so we'll just go we'll go with capitalism for now.

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Speaker 3: With that caveat enough. But I think he, you know,

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Speaker 3: in his view, any anything that's tainted by capitalism is

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Speaker 3: morally tainted. And what I what I don't get is

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Speaker 3: I'm sure how you can live in the world without

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Speaker 3: being in some form of collusion with capitalism if you

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Speaker 3: were buying and selling things on the open market.

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Speaker 1: How such as a book?

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Speaker 3: You know, market exchanges are sort of the way we

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Speaker 3: you know, the way we get out of subsistence level

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Speaker 3: where we produce everything that we own and we'll come back.

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Speaker 3: We'll come back to that, yeah too. But I mean

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Speaker 3: that's basically the reason showing is I mean, he would

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Speaker 3: he would like to see that the capitalist system dismantled

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Speaker 3: and replaced with something different, something that he calls what's

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Speaker 3: the term he used, Uh? Private? What do you say? Private? Private?

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Speaker 1: We'll come back, but that, you know.

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Speaker 3: But the tension, I think is that, uh, if you

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Speaker 3: if you're going to deconstruct something, you have to reconstruct

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Speaker 3: it too. And it's it's pretty heavy on deconstructing market

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Speaker 3: systems and pretty light on what's going to take its place.

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Speaker 3: And so we'll come back to that.

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Speaker 2: You're right though, on page sixty three he says, even

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Speaker 2: the Democrats are always in practice in some amount of

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Speaker 2: collusion with capitalism. So capitalism is the ultimate bad guy,

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Speaker 2: the cause of suffering in the world. And so he

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Speaker 2: says Biden, as I expected, was horrible. And so by

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Speaker 2: the way, his critique of Biden helps us understand what

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Speaker 2: he means by the left. He says, he offered unqualified

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Speaker 2: support for Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign in Gaza. So being

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Speaker 2: on the left is completely seemingly abandoning and critiquing Israel

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Speaker 2: really strong climate change policies, for giving billions of dollars

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Speaker 2: in student loans. These are the kind of things he

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Speaker 2: holds up Bernie Sanders, Rashida talib ilan Omar as kind

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Speaker 2: of brave and constantly fighting the right kind to battle.

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Speaker 2: So that's the leftism that he's leaning into.

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Speaker 3: And although you know, Bernie Sanders has a very healthy

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Speaker 3: net worth.

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Speaker 2: Of course, yeah, separate issue, fair enough, but really nice

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Speaker 2: based on capitalism he does. Okay, So how do you

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Speaker 2: there was a statement in here that he made. Let

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Speaker 2: me see it's on page twenty four. I'm really curious

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Speaker 2: you're taking this because you've written a lot on capitalism.

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Speaker 2: He says, it is now at least possible for person

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Speaker 2: to say, write a book for a major Christian publisher

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Speaker 2: that says why not consider socialism? Now this is Erdman,

435
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: So it's a little broader than say like a Baker

436
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 2: or a Zondervin or you know, a Harvest House publishers,

437
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: but it's a Christian publisher. Is this new and does

438
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: that surprise you?

439
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 3: Well, I would actually, I would have expected a different

440
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: publisher oh on this, meaning I would have expected something

441
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 3: like Orbis or Mary Noel, which are the Catholic publishers

442
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 3: that have been have been advocates of liberation theology around

443
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 3: around the world. So that that's the part the imprint.

444
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: What was a bit of a surprise to me, although

445
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: I'm not surprised that Christian publishers are publishing it because

446
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 3: as we mentioned several times before, there is there's this

447
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 3: fascination with socialism among millennials in gen Z today that

448
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 3: did not exist among you know, my baby boomer generation.

449
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: And part of the reason for that is because you know,

450
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 3: gen Z I think has a very fading memory, if

451
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: at all, of what life was like in Eastern Europe

452
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: under communism, where socialism was tried, I mean, socialism was

453
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 3: tried in Cuba, North Korea, Soviet Union, China, Uh, you

454
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: know all, I mean all sorts of places around the world.

455
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: Uh.

456
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 3: And every place that's been tried, it's been accompanied with

457
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 3: tyranny for one uh and economically it's it's proven to

458
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 3: be disastrous. UH. And the reason for that is because

459
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 3: the state can't read the minds of individuals who make

460
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 3: their who make their preferences known by the exchanges that

461
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: they make in the marketplace. The state, the state can't

462
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: figure out what's best for individuals apart from those those

463
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: market realities. And that's why the market, the markets reflect

464
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 3: our values for bet for better or for worse. Now,

465
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 3: sometimes it reflects him for worse, and he's I think

466
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 3: he's focused on the way markets reflect our values for worse. Okay,

467
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: But this, this is I think quite consistent with some

468
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 3: of the what we've seen, the gen Z fascination. It

469
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: is with socialism.

470
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: And there's a different beweeny gen Z fascination with it,

471
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 2: and a Christian publisher opening the door to socialism, making

472
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: a case or to a book making a case for socialism.

473
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: So to me, it's a sign that I'll be looking

474
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: for more to see if we see a normalization in

475
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: that direction, which I'm all for arguing ideas, but I

476
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: have some real issue we're going to get to with

477
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: some of the arguments here.

478
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: So what's your take on this.

479
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: Is it possible for somebody to be a leftist in

480
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: the way he characterized it in the book and a

481
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: Christian or are they mutually contradictory positions?

482
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: Let me I'll answer that, and then I want to

483
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: sharpen the question, okay, because I'd rather answer a different question. Okay.

484
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 3: The reason is because I think the Bible is clear,

485
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will

486
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 3: be saved. Okay, nothing about you know, political, economic, you know,

487
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 3: entailments of that. So I I don't think anything in

488
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: here disqualifies him from naming the name of Jesus and

489
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: being saved. Okay. I would say, is is is being

490
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 3: a leftist in the way he describes consistent with faithfulness

491
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 3: to scripture or consistent with a Christian worldview? And that's

492
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 3: a that's a different question, yes, And I think the

493
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 3: answer to that is probably not not to mention the

494
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 3: l g B, t Q stuff we've already talked about,

495
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 3: but I think they're there. I think there's there's some

496
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: problematic things in the view that leftism takes, mainly on economics,

497
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 3: that I think run counter to the notions of human

498
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: beings being created with freedom in the image of God,

499
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: with dignity and that and that Sean everywhere this has

500
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: been tried, those things have been They've just been wiped out. Uh.

501
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: And there's a funny thing about Utopia's there's only one

502
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 3: time where utopia is not going to have tyranny, and

503
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 3: that's when the lord returns and consummated, consummates his kingdom,

504
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 3: and we will have we will have a utopia with

505
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: a benevolent king without without tyranny or coercion. Now, the

506
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: other thing that I think is is problematic with leftism

507
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 3: is the view of private property. And I think private

508
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: property the way, particular the way John Locke articulated it,

509
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: and it was very influential to the Founding Fathers Locke.

510
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: Locke's view was that the view of private property was

511
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: an entailment of our rights over our own lives and

512
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 3: our own bodies. Because he saw the fruit of our

513
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 3: labor as an extension of our right over our own body. Now,

514
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: of course we got from a Christian world view. Of

515
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: course God, God is the one who owns our bodies,

516
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 3: and he owned he owns it all. So the theological

517
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 3: argument is a little bit different for that. But I

518
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: think Locke was onto something, and I think this is

519
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 3: one of the reasons why the Bible affirms private property

520
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 3: as being consistent with not only the ability to take

521
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 3: care of the poor, but consistent with a view of

522
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: a human person as being free and created in God's image,

523
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 3: with intrinsic dignity. That allows for the freedom that market

524
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: systems that empower in ways that no other system is done. Now,

525
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 3: it doesn't do it perfectly, but it does a whole

526
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: lot better than any other system that's been tried.

527
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: I think that distinction is very fair, And now is

528
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: a similar distinction.

529
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 2: Now, I was going to make God judges somebody's heart,

530
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: and we can't. Your point about if you believe in Christ,

531
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: you know you shall be saved.

532
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: That's like a minimal Christian salvation.

533
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: So denying the right to private property doesn't mean you

534
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: lose your salvation. A believing in radical climate change or

535
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: some of the other things that he talks about here

536
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: are not selvific issues. The question is do they line

537
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: up with a Christian understanding of the world.

538
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: That's where we would take serious issue. The thing that does.

539
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: Give me concern is there's just flirting with Marxism at times.

540
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: And Marxism is directly antithetical to.

541
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: The Christian world view.

542
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: It is a materialist worldview period, and of course Christianity

543
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: is not has a fundamentally different view of what it

544
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: means to be human, the nature of what sin is.

545
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: So he doesn't call himself Marxist and embrace all that,

546
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: but the flirting with that, I would just say, gives

547
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 2: me concern.

548
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: On that level.

549
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: You know, he doesn't lay out exactly what the gospel is,

550
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: talks about grace being a sinner. It still feels like

551
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: a left leaning kind of solidarity Heaven on Earth.

552
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: Kind of gospel.

553
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: But that might just be a lack of clarity on

554
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 2: his part that he clarifies somewhere else, and I haven't

555
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: taken the time to look at that. But in principle,

556
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: I think your distinction, your distinction is fair. So he

557
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: defines capitalism and I want to read it for us,

558
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: And I just again super curious if you agree with

559
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: his take on this. He says, let me just read

560
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: it for us. He says, by capitalism, I mean the

561
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: social system in which the means of production, the stuff

562
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 2: that makes all our stuff, which includes land, equipment, intellectual

563
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: property like patents and the like, and stock that gives

564
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: you a control and interest in these things, is allowed

565
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: to belong to individual people who have a legal right

566
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: to pass it on to their children and sell to

567
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: other individual people or whatever else they might take a

568
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: mind to do with it. That's it, That's all I mean.

569
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: Is that a fair description of capitalism?

570
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: No? No, okay, to not mix words.

571
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 3: Well, there's there's just there's quite a bit more to it. Now.

572
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 3: In part two of this, we're going to offer a

573
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: moral case for free markets, and we're gonna and we

574
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 3: use the term free markets in that. But I think

575
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 3: his you know, his his definition it all reflects around

576
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: the right of private property, and there's just there's just

577
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 3: a lot more to it than that. Now. I think

578
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 3: private property is central to that. But the problem with

579
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: with I think the view that he's taking is that, yeah,

580
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 3: I think we have there there can be limits on

581
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 3: how much, how much you pass on to your errors.

582
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 3: That's why we haven't inheritance taxes to limit some of that,

583
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 3: which I don't, which I don't think is unfair. And

584
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 3: you know, I've got it. We've got you know, a

585
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 3: good a good family friend that we've done for a

586
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 3: long time, very very well to do who basically said,

587
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 3: I'm not giving anything inheritance to my kids because I don't.

588
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: I don't want them to be in a place where

589
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 3: they're not earning their own way on their own I

590
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: commend them for them. But Sean, what happens when you

591
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 3: don't have private property is really the problem. Because one

592
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: of the one of the things that our listeners may

593
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 3: not be aware of, and our and our students are

594
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: not being taught in their history courses is when the

595
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 3: earliest settlers came to the United States in the Massachusetts

596
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 3: Bay Colony, they tried socialism for the first year and

597
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: they nearly starved to death. And it wasn't until they

598
00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 3: adopted basically a regiment of recognizing private property and allow

599
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 3: people to have an interest in their own interests economically

600
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: that they began to flourish, and they began to produce

601
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: enough food to actually feed themselves, and they begin to

602
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: produce other things that they needed by virtue of these

603
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 3: mutually beneficial exchanges. And I think that the reason, I

604
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: think the other reason that private property matters is because

605
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: you can't produce everything that you need on your own.

606
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 3: You have to have you have to have others producing

607
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 3: other things, and we trade and exchange based on the

608
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: things that we're good at. You know, there's a video

609
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: that was done years ago called eye Pencil.

610
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, fact.

611
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: It's a story about a person who tries to make

612
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 3: a pencil all by himself, and it's this hercule in

613
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: tact that if he tried to put it to scale,

614
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 3: pencils would probably cost ten to twenty dollars apiece. And

615
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: it was it showed how unrealistic it was to think

616
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 3: that we can have the things that we have without

617
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: a vibrant, dynamic, market based system. The follow up to that,

618
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 3: by the way, is called I Smartphone. Oh that's encourage

619
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 3: our encourage our viewers to take a look at that.

620
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: Both of those videos, they're very enlightening about what's what's involved. Yeah,

621
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 3: and none, but none of that happens if we don't

622
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 3: recognize a right to private property.

623
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 2: Jay Richards talks about that and is but God, greed

624
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: and money, in which he says, you've got to get

625
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: the right material. You've got to transport the right material.

626
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: You gotta weed it together, you gotta shape it, you

627
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: gotta market it.

628
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: Like there's so much more.

629
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: The whole point is a pencil seems simple, but it's

630
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: a lot of cooperation that takes place that one individual

631
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 2: can't do by themselves.

632
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 3: Not to be fair, I wouldn't call that community okay,

633
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 3: like some do. Some want to do that. I think

634
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 3: cooperation is the right thing. I mean, think about think

635
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 3: about you know. John Stossel did this years ago in

636
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 3: a video he entitled that he made entitled Greed, a

637
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 3: great piece on ABC News, and he goes into the

638
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 3: grocery store and he said, how did this? This is

639
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 3: my stake I'm bringing home for dinner. How did this

640
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 3: get here? And he goes back all the different steps

641
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 3: and all the different people who had to do their

642
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 3: jobs and be involved in order to bring the most

643
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 3: basic food to market. And there were about like twenty

644
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 3: different steps that were involved, and all sorts of different

645
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 3: companies that were involved, each seeking their own interest. Well

646
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: at the same time benefiting for.

647
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: The collective good and his enjoyment of the steak. Of course,

648
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: I'm sure he enjoyed it.

649
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: So we're going to come back, like you said in

650
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 2: part two and make a case for not capitalism market

651
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: what's the term use again, market economy, market economies. But

652
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: there's three kind of big objections that he levels and

653
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: maybe just kind of give us your quick take on this,

654
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: and one of them that he writes on page sixty

655
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 2: eight is that he says, you know, capitalism doesn't generate

656
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 2: dynamic innovation in part because people are just one step

657
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: away from financial rumen and so if people had more

658
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: of kind of a social security that was built into

659
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 2: them and had more insurance, then they be dynamic and innovative,

660
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: and capitalism undermines that.

661
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: And he gives an example. Actually, I thought it was interesting.

662
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: He says Jonah suck when he wanted to get the

663
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: polio and not to become a billionaire, but he just

664
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: wanted to give the property rights away as an example

665
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: of how this can be done for the collective good.

666
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: What's your take on that?

667
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 3: Well, I think what he's what he's what he says

668
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 3: is true in the developing world, but not in the

669
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 3: West where and I would call it crony capitalism that's

670
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 3: being tried in a lot of the developing world, mainly

671
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 3: sub Sahara Africa. And I don't think the average person

672
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 3: is one step from financial ruin now. I think there

673
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 3: are more people living paycheck to paycheck. That probably is true.

674
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: And it is true that you know, people are people.

675
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: People do get bankrupted by cancer treatments, for example, if

676
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 3: they're not insured. Now there's there's a lot more discussion

677
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 3: about that, but capitalism, there's no doubt, and the the

678
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 3: empirical evidence is beyond dispute that capitalism generates dynamic innovations.

679
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 3: Now there's just that. I mean, his statement about capitalism

680
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 3: not doing that, it's just patently false, because I mean,

681
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 3: we could go we go on and on and on

682
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 3: about the innovations that market based system that allow people

683
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,479
Speaker 3: to benefit from the fruit of their labors and from

684
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: taking risks, and we forget entrepreneurs are the ones who

685
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 3: provide the vast majority of jobs. And it's it's companies

686
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 3: that are under the size under the size of fifty

687
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 3: that produce like seventy five percent of the jobs in

688
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 3: the United States, and so without entrepreneurs being willing to

689
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 3: take risks, and they.

690
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: Risk it all they did.

691
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 3: And you know, and lots of entrepreneurs fail for a

692
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: variety of reasons, and the ones that succeed often do

693
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: so spectacularly. But remember some of the some of the

694
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 3: most significant entrepreneurs, Jeff Bezos didn't make a profit for

695
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 3: probably fifteen years.

696
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was that long.

697
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: It was a long time until people trusted the internet

698
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: that there, that their financial information was going to be safe.

699
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 3: So I think the salk I think is as a

700
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 3: wonderful example of charity and altruism, you know, good, you know,

701
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: although my understanding is that people who made the COVID

702
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 3: nineteen vaccines, they did make a nice profit over it,

703
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: that was not the same kind of fair of altruism,

704
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: but that you know, that's just patently false.

705
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think these are the exceptions that kind of

706
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: proved the rule. Like if you were accounting numbers here,

707
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: the amount of people that built businesses like you said,

708
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 2: that hired other people, created products that worked for the

709
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: collective good were not motivated by these very things and

710
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: would not have been motivated by these very things. So

711
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: you can find an exception here or there isn't going

712
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 2: to set up a pattern that this will work as

713
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 2: a whole, because, like you said, it actually never has.

714
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: One of the arguments he makes at least twice in here.

715
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: And you see this a lot in kind of the

716
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 2: mainstream media is he talks about how we outlawed non

717
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 2: penal slavery in the US, but that actually developing countries

718
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 2: slaves grow our chocolate, build our iPhones, work on the

719
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 2: stadia that will host the World Cup. He says, whatever

720
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 2: you call our economic system is not fully outgrown the

721
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: slavery that attended its expansion. So should we blame the

722
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: US for enslaving people around the world for our own

723
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: greed because of capitalism?

724
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 3: Way overstated, and the exceptions don't make the rule. What

725
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 3: I want to be careful about, Sean, is that we

726
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 3: don't equate employment with enslavement. Those are two different things.

727
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 3: And I caught glimpses of where, you know, all the

728
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 3: examples that he cited were these extremes. You know, he

729
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 3: didn't cite the examples that way way outnumber them. About

730
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 3: people who you know, take jobs voluntarily, they leave them

731
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 3: voluntarily their mutually beneficial exchange. I mean you and I.

732
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 3: You know, we get we get paid for coming to

733
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 3: teach our classes. We agree to do that. It's it's

734
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 3: a mutually beneficial exchange. Nobody's forcing us to do this.

735
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 3: We can both leave these at any time we want to,

736
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: though I'm hoping that neither of us do. But to

737
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: to e quite employment with being enslaved, I think is

738
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 3: hugely reductionistic and just doesn't doesn't appreciate just what the

739
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 3: what a labor market actually is.

740
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: I think he also does not talk about places like

741
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: in say China, and the actual slavery of wigers over there,

742
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: you know, and I wouldn't get if he was right,

743
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: that wouldn't get capitalist countries off the hook for what

744
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 2: they allegedly do. I think your point still stands. But

745
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 2: to just single this out as if it's a unique

746
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: problem of capitalism is completely and.

747
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not given three cheers for sweatshops, but

748
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 3: I am given maybe one or two because if in

749
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 3: the in the in the parts of the developing world

750
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 3: where those exist, yeah, the conditions are are unethical and

751
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 3: should be illegal. But to give I mean, if those

752
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: people don't have those jobs, those factories aren't there Jehan,

753
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 3: what are their alternatives? Alternatives are, you know, begging on

754
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 3: the street or you know, selling their children or uh,

755
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 3: you know, you know, prostitution for women. Uh, there there are,

756
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 3: There just aren't good alternatives. So, yeah, there are things

757
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 3: problematic about that, and I'm not I'm not I'm not

758
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 3: an apologist for those sure, but I think those things,

759
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 3: those do provide meaning, meaningful jobs, and in some in

760
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 3: some parts of the world, Sean, we families don't have

761
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 3: a choice but to send their children to work because

762
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 3: they because they can't feed their families without that. Now

763
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 3: you might ask, well, why are they in that situation.

764
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 3: Some of it has to do with the economic system

765
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 3: that exists in general that doesn't provide innovation. But again

766
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 3: that's another story. But I don't want to. I don't

767
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 3: want to. I don't want to equate being employed with being.

768
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: Enslaved agreed fair enough good good distinction.

769
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 2: So in his part of a Solution against capitalism, and

770
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 2: you were referencing this earlier, is what it calls private

771
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 2: sufficiency plus public luxury.

772
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: Let me just read the way he describes it. It's

773
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: on page sixty six.

774
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 2: He says, I'm personally a big fan of the idea

775
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: of private sufficiency plus public luxury. To quote a mantra

776
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 2: beloved of some eco socialists, a society where nobody has

777
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 2: a private swimming pool, but they're well maintained in beautiful

778
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: public pools every few blocks. Few people have cars, but

779
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 2: public transit is a sci fi dream. I can't own

780
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 2: thousands of the books I cover it, But every last

781
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: little township library has robust collection and line the fancies

782
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 2: research libraries in the world. Is that doable what we

783
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: should strive towards and be fans of, or is that

784
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 2: an unworkable utopian dream?

785
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's It's a nice idea in theory

786
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 3: and the public libraries. You know, we just got back

787
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: from New York City not long ago. New York City

788
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 3: Public Library is astonishing. Yeah, it's fantastic. But private sufficiency,

789
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 3: it will not motivate people to work harder. So true,

790
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 3: and this is where you know, yeah, I mean we

791
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 3: have to take into account the fallen the fallen timber

792
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 3: of humanity. Although the Bible does not condemn the pursuit

793
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: of self interest, right, and we'll get to that in

794
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 3: part two. But I think private sufficiency is not enough

795
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: to keep people striving and working and continuing to bring

796
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 3: new products to market. That Bennett that provide wealth and

797
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 3: jobs and products and services as people need is not

798
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 3: going to provide the kind of medical innovation that's going

799
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 3: to save lives and the public public luxury, I think,

800
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 3: is subject to what what environmentalists call the tragedy of

801
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 3: the commons. And generally, when things are held in common,

802
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 3: nobody owns them, and nobody takes responsibility for it, and

803
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 3: nobody feels responsibility for them. And that's that's a big

804
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 3: part of the reason we have issues with the environment

805
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 3: because the pollution that I create the wind takes that

806
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 3: to somebody else's neighborhood and I don't have to worry

807
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 3: about it, right And rivers that are polluted, you know,

808
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 3: they go to other countries and I, therefore I don't

809
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 3: have to worry about it. And if it's and think

810
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 3: about what's happened to public housing today, you know that

811
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: that's that's that's not a good advertisement for the possibility

812
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 3: of public luxury. Now. Lots of communities have great parks,

813
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 3: but lots of parks are not privately owned. They're run down,

814
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 3: and there's there's not they're not nobody. Nobody has an

815
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 3: incentive to keep them up.

816
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: My wife's family is a big car family, and one

817
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: of the advice they gave us is never buy a

818
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: used car that was a rental because it's your People

819
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: who drive a rental car are going to drive it

820
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: differently because they just turn the keys over to somebody

821
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: else versus one you own and care for because of

822
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: human nature. And I think that makes your point that

823
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: good in theory, but just simply not going to work.

824
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: I like libraries, but there's some books I like to

825
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 2: own and it means something to me, and I write

826
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: in it, and I go back to it, and I

827
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: think there's not only not something wrong with that, there's

828
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 2: something good about that that I think he's missing. Biblical

829
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: argument we love you take on this is uh. He

830
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 2: talks about work and makes the point that he says,

831
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: Jesus the couples work from subsistence entirely. So this passage

832
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 2: in Matthew six, verses twenty eight through thirty. I'll read it,

833
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: and Jesus says, and why are you anxious about clothing?

834
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 2: Consider the lilies the field, how they grow? They neither

835
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: toil nor spin. Yet I tell you even Salomon, all

836
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But

837
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: if God so close the grass, the field which today's

838
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: life and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he

839
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 2: not much more clothe you?

840
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,760
Speaker 1: Owe you of the little faith.

841
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 3: What's in between the lines on this is that work

842
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 3: is primarily the means by which God closes us and

843
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 3: feeds us. And I think I don't think he's decoupling

844
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 3: work from subsistence. What he's saying is that God will

845
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: ultimately provide for you. He doesn't suggest what the means

846
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 3: is to provide that.

847
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: Sean, there's interesting point.

848
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 3: I mean, how do how do how does how does

849
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 3: God answer the prayer give us this day our daily bread?

850
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 3: Mainly it's by our jobs that we have m right,

851
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 3: and I think in part it's by the economic systems

852
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 3: that we have that generate wealth. I you know, I

853
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 3: to be honest, I can't remember the last time I

854
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 3: prayed that prayer except in church when we repeat the

855
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 3: right because because you know, God has God has provided

856
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,240
Speaker 3: this through my job. Now. He also says later that

857
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 3: that Jesus also sacramentalized.

858
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: He does work, he does.

859
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 3: And that you know, in part the reason is because

860
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 3: our work contributes to the common good, but it also

861
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 3: is the means by which we take care of ourselves

862
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 3: and our dependence.

863
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: That's a that's a great point.

864
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 2: I'd not thought about that, the means by which God

865
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: gives the bread, the means by which God clothes us.

866
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,479
Speaker 2: I think the larger point he's here the end is oh,

867
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: you of little faith. It's about their faith, it's about

868
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 2: their trust in God. And this is merely an illustration

869
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 2: to get there, not trying to decouple work from you know,

870
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 2: subsistence in the way that he wanted to.

871
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 3: I'd want to ask our author, if he's taking this

872
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 3: literally like this, why does he Why doesn't he quit

873
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:22,439
Speaker 3: his job?

874
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: Fair question?

875
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 3: Why why does he get up and go to work?

876
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 3: Because he knows that if you don't work, you're probably

877
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 3: not going to eat.

878
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 2: Which is the danger of taking passages out of a

879
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 2: larger biblical context, in which Paul has a lot to

880
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,399
Speaker 2: say in the proverbs about somebody being worthy of their

881
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: wages and specifically working. All right, So I got just

882
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: a few more for you here. At the root of

883
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: some of this, he argues that Christians should view everyone.

884
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: As their neighbor.

885
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: So should we view everybody as our neighbor, and should

886
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 2: the government not favor citizens over non citizens.

887
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, put it this way, the

888
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: parable the Good Samaritan, Yes, suggests that our neighbor is

889
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 3: anyone who has a need. That's the definition of our neighbor. Now,

890
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 3: I think we have we have slightly different obligations to

891
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 3: different types of neighbors based on relationships. For example, I

892
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 3: have a different What compassion looks like for my students

893
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 3: is different than what it looks like for my family,

894
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 3: right because I'm there are things that I will do

895
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 3: for my family that I won't do for my students.

896
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 3: Just include my students in on that, you know, and

897
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 3: I think it and it also I think depends on

898
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 3: proximity and nobility and stewardship. Well, I think what he's

899
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 3: suggesting here is something akin to open borders immigration policy

900
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 3: that I think fails to take into account that governments

901
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 3: have limited resources, and that the citizens that pay taxes

902
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 3: I think have a greater claim on those resources than

903
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 3: those who do not. Now, those who have need also

904
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,839
Speaker 3: have a claim on the common resources. I think that

905
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 3: that's true, But I don't think governments are necessarily wrong

906
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 3: to restrict those exercising those claims to those who are citizens. Now,

907
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 3: I think that we need to leave some room for

908
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 3: people who are non citizens as a safety net. I

909
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 3: think there's for example, I think they ought to be

910
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 3: provided with medical care Becter. That's a public health concern

911
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 3: if they're not. But I think that the combination of

912
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 3: open borders in a welfare state is that prescription for

913
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 3: I think a stewardship disaster. And I think that's probably

914
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 3: not quite what's taken into account.

915
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. I don't know. We could have

916
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: a discussion about that.

917
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 2: She might be right whether the point of the Good

918
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 2: Samaritan is that my neighbor is anyone in need versus

919
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: we should not just assume that my neighbor is those

920
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 2: who are like me and I get along with. But

921
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 2: it expands my boundaries to include somebody like a good Samaritan.

922
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, they're my enemies.

923
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 2: And obviously the Bible's not going to address the age

924
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 2: of the Internet, where we're aware of needs around the

925
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 2: world and the impossibility of managing that. I mean, right now,

926
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 2: my wife, we have a neighbor who's not doing well,

927
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,320
Speaker 2: and she was shopping yesterday and went over and delivered

928
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 2: food to her and spent an hour just talking with her.

929
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 2: There's a responsibility to somebody across the street from us

930
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 2: that you don't don't have equally to somebody on the

931
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: other side of the world. Doesn't mean we don't care

932
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 2: about them, as we don't give to them, but they're

933
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 2: still I don't think it's yeah, weaited more heavily. It's

934
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 2: not possible to treat every single person on the planet

935
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: as a government or an individual, nor should we seem.

936
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 3: That's sort of what I meant by proximity.

937
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough of it. That makes sense.

938
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 2: So a couple last questions and we'll wrap this up.

939
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 2: I'm curious what At the very end, he has this

940
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 2: suggestion about how to move forward to get people to

941
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 2: become leftists, and he says we need to recruit Christian moms.

942
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: Of all genders.

943
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 2: So in part, there's the angle of like, do we

944
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 2: need to recruit more moms than more guys? And this

945
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 2: is probably such a stereotype, but some would say the

946
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 2: left can lean towards more feminine compassion, the right can

947
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 2: lean more masculine with justice, and these are just kind

948
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 2: of stereotypical ways. Sometimes people will characterize that. So for

949
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 2: someone in the left that leans into compassion and solidarity

950
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 2: to say we need more moms, it's interesting because in

951
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 2: this moment we're seeing more guys, at least in the

952
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: US become more conservative and more women leaning to the

953
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 2: left a little bit. It's it's an interesting moment to

954
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 2: say that. So there's that piece. But then Christian moms

955
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: of all genders.

956
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's I mean, we should probably we should just

957
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 3: point that out and then otherwise leave it alone.

958
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 2: I do have I have to point when you say that,

959
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm sorry you have left the Christian faithful

960
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 2: farm that is nowhere in Scripture. The idea that a

961
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 2: biological male can be a mom is it's an insult.

962
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: I hate to say.

963
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: I'm not to an individual person, but to the clear

964
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: teachings of Scripture, Genesis, all the way forward.

965
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, he says we need to recruit Christian moms because

966
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 3: they things. Done's why. That's which we sound, you know,

967
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 3: which you know, that's sort of what wipes out that

968
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 3: that masculine feminine characterization that we were going for. But

969
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 3: you know, I get why he wants to recruit people

970
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 3: to the cause. But it's a I think that the hard,

971
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 3: the hard hard left is a really hard sell for

972
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 3: most people. And I think, you know, I think this

973
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 3: is why, you know, the candidacy of folks like Bernie

974
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 3: Sanders never really went anywhere. It's just it's a tough

975
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 3: sell because people. I think people recognize that incentives matter

976
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 3: and that you have to account for a reality in

977
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 3: a fallen world. And mark Markets do really good job

978
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 3: of that.

979
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that in our next episode.

980
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,040
Speaker 2: But I feel in some ways it feels like a

981
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 2: tug in between my heart and my mind because a

982
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 2: lot of things he writes, my heart goes, yeah, I

983
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 2: want solidarity like that. I want to have this universal

984
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: connection with people and care for the poor and the environment.

985
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: Like some of the stories he tells are pulling on

986
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 2: the heartstrings. Like I get why people are drawn to

987
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 2: the left. I understand it at the very end, though,

988
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 2: why I think I'm not is there's no other way

989
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 2: to put it than it's just divorced from reality. He

990
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 2: writes on page one sixty two, one of the most

991
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 2: important things about leftism is that it is a rejection

992
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 2: of the existing reality in favor of moral values that

993
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 2: no society has made concrete yet, And I go, yeah,

994
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 2: it hasn't made it concrete. Why because it doesn't line

995
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 2: up with human value, it doesn't line up with economic laws,

996
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 2: it doesn't line up with human nature and our self interests.

997
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 2: So it's not that we haven't tried it yet, it's

998
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 2: that we've tried it and it's failed. And that's the

999
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: consistent record. So I'm not a leftist because I don't

1000
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 2: think the Bible supports it.

1001
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: And even if I wasn't a Christian.

1002
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be a leftist because it just doesn't match

1003
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 2: up with reality.

1004
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't work.

1005
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 2: Now, if you have any final comments on that grape,

1006
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 2: but maybe tell us we're going to do a part

1007
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 2: two on the positive case for a market economic.

1008
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 3: Rights written on this on the virtues of quote capitalism.

1009
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 3: That was that was the publisher's title, not mine, And

1010
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 3: and we laid out a moral case for free markets,

1011
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 3: and I think there are there's there's good biblical and

1012
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 3: moral justification for organizing our political economy around as free

1013
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 3: as free a market system as we can have. That's

1014
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 3: not to say that it shouldn't have guardrails. And then

1015
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 3: there's a place for that and it doesn't mean that

1016
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 3: there shouldn't be abuses. But as I think, as we've

1017
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 3: said before, the problem with capitalism is capitalists. See the

1018
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 3: problem with socialism is socialism.

1019
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 1: Mmmm.

1020
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 3: Those are the problems you mentioned. That's intrinsic to the

1021
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 3: system that's right, and whenever it's been tried, it has failed.

1022
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: Well, I'm looking for that episode.

1023
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: And if you're watching this on either YouTube or listening

1024
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: on the Think Biblical podcast, make sure you comment or

1025
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 2: you send in your email thoughts to us Think Biblically

1026
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: at Biola dot edu and give us a review.

1027
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: Thanks for watching. In the meantime, make sure you think

1028
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: biblically about everything.

1029
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 2: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1030
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 2: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1031
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,480
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1032
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

1033
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

1034
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show,

1035
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1036
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

1037
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 2: spiritual firmation, marriage and family, Bible and so much more,

1038
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,720
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1039
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today, and we will see

1040
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops