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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm joined again by the hosts

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Speaker 1: of the Bible Unbranded podcast, Rebecca Schosberger and Renee Duffy,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to continue our conversation of Deuteronomy, and

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Speaker 1: today we're really going to focus in on where to

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Speaker 1: use the Sabbath as sort of an example of how

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Speaker 1: to go about interpreting laws within a theological framework, one

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Speaker 1: might say, and so thinking about how these laws convey

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Speaker 1: something of the character of God and something of the

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Speaker 1: underlying realities of the world that we're trying to live in.

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Speaker 1: And along the way, then we'll dress probably how might

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Speaker 1: the Church think about Sabbath the rest even in today's world.

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Speaker 1: So we'll get a little practical as well, but that's

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Speaker 1: where we're headed, and so welcome back. It's great to

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Speaker 1: have you both here, and thanks for being on.

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Speaker 2: It's really nice to be here and have these conversations,

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Speaker 2: So thank you very much for this collaboration.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this. I've been

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Speaker 1: teaching Hebrews on Wednesday mornings with this group that I do,

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Speaker 1: and when I was thinking about our conversation about how

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Speaker 1: this works from a theological perspective, that notion of shadow

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Speaker 1: and substance or shadow and copy that Hebrews uses, the

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Speaker 1: way it gestures up to sort of this quote unquote

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Speaker 1: heavenly reality, or as I like to refer to it

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Speaker 1: as the substance, I think gets a little patonic. So

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Speaker 1: I don't want people to think that I'm like just

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Speaker 1: drawing on that. But the idea is that so much

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Speaker 1: of what we do and so much what Hebrews describes

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Speaker 1: from an Old Testament perspective is gesturing towards something in

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Speaker 1: that language better. It's not that this stuff that we're

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Speaker 1: exhibiting right now isn't real or isn't good. It's just

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Speaker 1: that there's something ahead of us that's so much better

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Speaker 1: that these things that we're living in now are gesturing

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Speaker 1: toward They're pointing us toward them. They're creating sort of

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Speaker 1: an ache that conditions us to move in that direction,

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Speaker 1: as I like to think of it. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering how that framework might fit with something like when

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Speaker 1: we go to a Saba command or really any command,

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Speaker 1: whether that framework is a helpful framework coming from the

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Speaker 1: Book of Hebrews back into the Old Testament and saying,

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Speaker 1: what if we started thinking about these things as copies

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Speaker 1: and shadows without diminishing them, but also really thinking about

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Speaker 1: them as how are they pointing us somewhere forward? So

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Speaker 1: I'll just leave that. I'll just start us as a

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Speaker 1: conversation starter, and either of you can start what do

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Speaker 1: you think.

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Speaker 3: I have?

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Speaker 4: But I want Rene wants it like a chance to respond?

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Speaker 3: Get it now?

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Speaker 2: Okay, It's so fun, James talking to you about these things,

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Speaker 2: because genuinely you bring up all these things in the

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Speaker 2: New Testament that I.

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Speaker 4: Of course believe in, and of course, but because for

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Speaker 4: so many.

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Speaker 2: Factors I have stayed primarily as an Old Testament scholar.

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Speaker 2: I remember one day I heard someone I think it

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Speaker 2: was Trumper Longman and he said in a conversation, he said,

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Speaker 2: I think it was him. I am an Old Testament

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Speaker 2: scholar and a New Testament lay person, and I thought, okay,

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Speaker 2: there's a space allowed for that.

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Speaker 3: That's me.

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Speaker 2: But the reason I understand Hebrews better now is because

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Speaker 2: so I don't have to go backwards to do that.

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Speaker 2: That's how I'm understanding Hebrews. The thing that I want

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Speaker 2: to address is there's this idea in scholarship that has

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Speaker 2: been proposed about the law by people I respect really highly,

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Speaker 2: people who have influenced me by their writings. But I

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Speaker 2: disagree with this perspective. And it's that in the idea

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Speaker 2: of it pointing us forward, it's almost got And this

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Speaker 2: is not the scholar's language, this evolutionary model, like God

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Speaker 2: wanted to fix things up so messed up, he had

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Speaker 2: to start slowly, and things like polygamy or slavery or

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Speaker 2: all of those things have to get kind of pointed

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Speaker 2: towards something better.

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Speaker 4: In here and now.

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Speaker 2: And that if you have training in that background and

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Speaker 2: are hearing that, you might think that I'm affirming that.

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Speaker 2: That's not how I see it at all. I think

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Speaker 2: this is what you were alluding to. That, and I

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Speaker 2: don't even want to restate what you said, but the

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Speaker 2: idea that, but I'm gonna try in it, the idea

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Speaker 2: that what law is calling for or anything that we're

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Speaker 2: doing down here when we see but a glimpse of

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Speaker 2: how great and how right everything will be. And I

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Speaker 2: see that in a couple of ways out of my

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Speaker 2: own study of Deuteronomy. One of them, and I think

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Speaker 2: we talked about this last time, is that if we assume,

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Speaker 2: rather than these laws somehow built this utopia that if

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Speaker 2: we could just get back at we would be a

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Speaker 2: more righteous nation or whatever. Rather than that, if we

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Speaker 2: see that these laws are expressing elements of the character

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Speaker 2: of God, that.

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Speaker 3: In settings where they.

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Speaker 2: Might be applicable, not because of the top, not because

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Speaker 2: of the characters in the setting, but because of issues

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Speaker 2: that arise out of that kind of brokenness. So like

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Speaker 2: marriage brings a lot of like conflict of hierarchy and

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Speaker 2: you know, family whatever. So the settings create a good

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Speaker 2: spot for this thing to be practiced, whether it's human

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Speaker 2: dignity or use of authority orrap not morality.

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Speaker 3: I'm like.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, looking for a word, we would call it modesty

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Speaker 2: or something like that.

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Speaker 3: Sure, but they're.

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Speaker 4: Practiced character of God by broken people.

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Speaker 3: And then when Christ comes.

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Speaker 2: We talked about this last time, he's practicing the character

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Speaker 2: of God as God.

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Speaker 4: And obviously, in the future, whatever.

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Speaker 2: Heaven looks like, no idea, there's that reality thing for us.

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Speaker 2: It's in the future, you know, And that's the thing

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Speaker 2: we are getting glimpses of of who God is.

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Speaker 3: So that's.

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Speaker 2: But that's all kind of like a big fancy explanation.

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Speaker 2: What And this is where I think, Renee, maybe we

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Speaker 2: haven't talked about it, but might be able to help

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Speaker 2: and add to the conversation.

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Speaker 3: Is the reason.

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Speaker 2: That that seems to be happening is rhetorical.

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Speaker 3: It's it's almost.

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Speaker 2: Literary, and that you have.

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Speaker 3: The God of the universe.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to write this out yesterday and a

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Speaker 2: different contexts, and if I.

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Speaker 4: Wrote incomparable and incomprehensible.

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Speaker 5: Lovel, just true to describe who the Almighty.

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Speaker 2: Is and what that looks like through words and deeds

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Speaker 2: and examples for which we have no paradigm.

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Speaker 4: So literally, at its very best, all.

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Speaker 3: We could see is a shadow.

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Speaker 4: Because I don't even know how we're going to get

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Speaker 4: the comprehension.

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Speaker 2: You tell me that I could live like even just

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Speaker 2: a utopia.

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Speaker 4: I don't know that I want to. I like to

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Speaker 4: struggle a little bit, you know, I have to earn something.

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Speaker 2: There's all these concepts we can't even get our brains around.

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Speaker 3: And so.

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Speaker 2: In God's humility and desire to reach us, he conveys

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Speaker 2: them the only the only ways we can understand them,

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Speaker 2: and those are but a shadow. So both of those

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Speaker 2: pieces I think are absolutely fundamental to what's going on

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Speaker 2: and on. That's why when I read a Hebrews I'm like.

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Speaker 4: Oh, thank you.

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Speaker 2: This is why you know, when Abraham's called righteous or

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Speaker 2: other characters that we look at and go, huh, I

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Speaker 2: guess it was fine that he sent his wife off

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Speaker 2: to a harem to save his life.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and.

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Speaker 2: It Abraham is a great example and he's a shadow

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Speaker 2: of So anyway, let's out there, right, Can you help

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Speaker 2: with all my I.

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Speaker 1: Mean I'm kind of interested, you know, yeah, because Rebecca

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Speaker 1: brought it up, but you know that literary aspect, I'd

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Speaker 1: be interested to hear you talk about it. And then yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've got a couple of thoughts i'll share too.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: I mean, first I want to just acknowledge that I

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Speaker 7: think when all three of us are like building all

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Speaker 7: these guardrails right to the thing that Jane's introduced to

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Speaker 7: talk about, which is I'm interested to actually get to

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Speaker 7: talk about. But I will also just add to the guardrails,

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Speaker 7: I guess.

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Speaker 6: And that we all all have this risk of falling

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Speaker 6: into the fallacy of time snobbery.

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Speaker 8: Right Like we we look back and we think, oh,

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Speaker 8: these are all the things that have been fixed already,

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Speaker 8: like POLYGONI is fixed now, so that means we must

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Speaker 8: be further along. But the reality is like, like you're

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Speaker 8: identifying we, it's incomparable. We can't we can't get we

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Speaker 8: can't understand the the nature of God, the perfection of

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Speaker 8: Jesus in flesh, who is God. And so this is

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Speaker 8: one of the reasons why we have so much story

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Speaker 8: and narrative in our Bibles, right is because this is

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Speaker 8: something we can relate to. It's something that we can

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Speaker 8: begin to comprehend because there's overlap with.

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Speaker 6: All human ex experience and with the use of narrative.

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Speaker 8: That's like, just throughout all of human history, narrative has

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Speaker 8: been an important way that we figure out who we

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Speaker 8: are and how we connect to the past and where

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Speaker 8: we go in the future, and what's going happening to

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Speaker 8: us now and what's happened then, and so all of

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Speaker 8: this are these layers that God has graced us with

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Speaker 8: so that we can begin to comprehend in our moment.

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Speaker 6: But at any given moment along the way, God has

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Speaker 6: accommodated himself to us through these ways. And so rather

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Speaker 6: than I.

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Speaker 8: Mean there is progression, right, there's there's a redemptive history

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Speaker 8: that moves forward, but humanity isn't really what has moved forward.

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Speaker 8: If we're going to talk about being like God and

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Speaker 8: understanding God.

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Speaker 6: God has moved his redemptive plan through, but we're still humans.

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Speaker 6: We still can't get it.

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Speaker 8: And so it's important to know that while there are

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Speaker 8: there are things that we see differently than ancient peoples did,

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Speaker 8: they still got so much, just like we get so much.

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Speaker 6: And so instead being able.

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Speaker 8: To read narrative or read law in context to a

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Speaker 8: best of our ability and then looking to the person

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Speaker 8: of God, which is, you know, what we're here like

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Speaker 8: poised to begin doing, is helpful in keeping that guard

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Speaker 8: rail of that time snobbery. Instead of trying to place

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Speaker 8: ourselves in a place which is what you are talking

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Speaker 8: about I think back to this idea that they've put

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Speaker 8: forward that there's something that you know has changed with

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Speaker 8: us when they're when there really isn't. We're still struggling

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Speaker 8: just as much as any other generation has struggled through

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Speaker 8: all of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's I think it's important to put

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Speaker 1: the qualifier of the evolutionary app respect on it. And

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Speaker 1: I think that what we want to avoid is thinking

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Speaker 1: that we're making some sort of progress. I think more

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Speaker 1: what we see in Hebrews is something akin to what

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Speaker 1: I've been reading. This will be like my super geek moment.

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Speaker 1: I've been reading Philip Reef his book Life and the

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Speaker 1: Death Works, and he talks about culture in terms of

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Speaker 1: sacred order that in social order, and culture transliterates the

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Speaker 1: sacred order into a social order. And so what I

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Speaker 1: see in Hebrews is this moment, this post resurrection moment,

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Speaker 1: and I use moment as sort of the epoch, right,

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Speaker 1: this post resurrection moment is now telling the community of faith, look,

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Speaker 1: your social order needs to reflect a new sacred order.

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Speaker 1: There's something very different post resurrection of Christ that everybody

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Speaker 1: in the Christian community needs to recognize and then reflect

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Speaker 1: within unity and so that is better than what you

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Speaker 1: had before. But that's very different than saying it's an

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Speaker 1: evolutionary move. It's what you're seeing is you've got the

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Speaker 1: way I think about it. And I think there says

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Speaker 1: some rooting in actually in Hebrews, because in the first

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Speaker 1: chapter you have the set up between the revelation given

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Speaker 1: by angels and the revelation given by the Sun. And

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Speaker 1: so there's something too if we think about God's self disclosure,

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Speaker 1: about God being hidden and God being or making himself present,

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Speaker 1: making himself available to us. And so what I think

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Speaker 1: we have in the Old Testament Law is very good

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Speaker 1: when he makes the contrast between what's given through the

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Speaker 1: angels and what's given through the Sun. He's not saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, through out everything that the Angel's

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Speaker 1: ever told you. In fact, you know in that chapter

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Speaker 1: he quotes the Old Testament multiple times. So it's not

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Speaker 1: a jettisoning of this old revelation, but it's a recognition

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Speaker 1: that now we have something different and better that we

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Speaker 1: have to incorporate an embody. And so I think there's

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Speaker 1: a really interesting move to be made to say, now

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Speaker 1: as we're reading Old Testament Law, yes, it has to.

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Speaker 1: It still reflects God's character, and as we read it

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Speaker 1: as a reflection of God's character, we also have a

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Speaker 1: further revelation in the Sun that helps us even understand

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Speaker 1: the Old Testament law that much better.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: I'm an Old Testament guy, and so I'm very cautious

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Speaker 1: of like, hey, let's just do Christological readings of the

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Speaker 1: Old Testament. I don't believe that's what we should do, right,

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Speaker 1: But I do think that it's impossible for us to

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Speaker 1: divorce ourselves from a context in which we have the

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Speaker 1: Sun revelation and try to read the Old Testament as

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Speaker 1: if that weren't there, sure, right, And so that's always

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Speaker 1: attention for me. Because I don't particularly gravitate toward Cristological

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Speaker 1: readings of the Old Testament. I think we need to

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Speaker 1: read the Old Testament on its own terms and allow

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Speaker 1: it to sort of then organically connect into Christ as

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Speaker 1: opposed to like saying, nope, that the Angel of the

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Speaker 1: Lord is Jesus, it's a you know, Christophany or something like.

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Speaker 1: I just don't really love that sort of move, but

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Speaker 1: hopefully that clarifies that I love that sort of sacred order,

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Speaker 1: social order, just you know, explanation and the culture, which

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Speaker 1: would be in this case the literary as you were

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Speaker 1: talking about Rene, But I would also say the symbolic,

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Speaker 1: the structural right, the temple, it's cultus, the legal, the laws,

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Speaker 1: to the extent that we would separate that from a

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Speaker 1: literary right. You know, you have all these different layers

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Speaker 1: that now create a culture, that are conveying, for lack

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Speaker 1: of a better term, belief, Right, this is the reality

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Speaker 1: we believe the sacred order to be, and so we're

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Speaker 1: structuring our lives around it here and now, and as

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Speaker 1: we and then as you get to Hebrews, you kind

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Speaker 1: of sit back and you go, oh, okay, there is a

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Speaker 1: new sacred reality because Jesus has risen. He's been given

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Speaker 1: authority over heavens and the earth, and you know, he's

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Speaker 1: in a new place. We have a new high Priest

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Speaker 1: and they're teasing out all of these things. And it's like, now,

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Speaker 1: this has different implications for how we order ourselves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's sort of my broader thought process.

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Speaker 6: Like, yeah, it reminds me not to drag us backwards.

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Speaker 6: But as you're talking about this like.

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Speaker 8: New reality, we re incorporate, right, we reinterpret with what

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Speaker 8: we know and how like, as I'm listening to you,

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Speaker 8: I'm thinking, right, and that's that's the exciting part, right

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Speaker 8: that us on this side of resurrection, this is exciting

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Speaker 8: for us and we can understand that and actually being

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Speaker 8: able to use that experience to understand what was exciting

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Speaker 8: about what was happening in the Old Testament for them,

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Speaker 8: that God was doing and showing up in new and

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Speaker 8: exciting ways, and how that was reinterpreting the world around them,

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Speaker 8: and how he used the cultural things around them in

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Speaker 8: order to do that. Like all of that kind of

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Speaker 8: piled in together is some of what I get the

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Speaker 8: most excited about.

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Speaker 1: So agree that. Yeah, Becky, uh yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Was just going to say, I'm definitely going to go

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Speaker 2: listen to this podcast again so I can figure out

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Speaker 2: everything you were saying, because this, like, and I'm not

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Speaker 2: tongue in cheek, like this is a question that students

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Speaker 2: ask me all the time about, you know, the relationship

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Speaker 2: between the two and what's new and what's different that

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Speaker 2: because it might be a weakness of mine.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I just but because of how much I've set in

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Speaker 2: the law and how I see all those exciting things

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Speaker 2: pointed out, and this will bring us right back to Sabbath.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to make some you do who I

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Speaker 2: haven't finished reading the dissertation yet are super excited about though.

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Speaker 4: But.

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Speaker 2: This will bring us right back to the Sabbath. And

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make super big claims about what the

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Speaker 2: Sabbath is designed to help the people practice as part

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Speaker 2: of their weekly routine.

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Speaker 3: And it's so exciting.

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Speaker 4: That it includes the Cross, like even though they don't

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Speaker 4: know that.

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Speaker 2: It includes the Cross, rather than, in my opinion, rather

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Speaker 2: than somehow being changed by the Cross. So I really

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Speaker 2: struggle not with the concepts, but like literally with understanding

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Speaker 2: or explaining the concepts.

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Speaker 3: A it's a in.

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Speaker 2: My outworking of my own teaching or my theology that

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Speaker 2: I haven't found ways to articulate.

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Speaker 6: So I loved what.

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Speaker 2: You said and will definitely be listening to it again

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Speaker 2: to go like, okay, well, I.

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Speaker 1: Will say, just as a sort of a plug, I

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Speaker 1: was aled to Phillip Brief's Life and the Death Works

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Speaker 1: through Kevin Flatt's book called Secularization, Social Order, and World History,

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Speaker 1: which I would recommend all over the place. I think

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Speaker 1: he does a fantastic job he doesn't deal with Christianity

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Speaker 1: up front, right, He really starts with Confucism and you know,

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Speaker 1: Islam and various other things, and he shows how this

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Speaker 1: sacred social order actually worked through these other traditions, and

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Speaker 1: it's really fantastic. So I was definitely led back to

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Speaker 1: Reef from him, and we want to give him attribution

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Speaker 1: for that.

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Speaker 3: But either way we.

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Speaker 1: Can, Yeah, we can. Let's move into Sabbath a little

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Speaker 1: bit and talk through. You know, how does Sabbath then

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Speaker 1: convey the character of God. I think the easy one is,

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Speaker 1: you know, you look at it in an Exodus. It's rooted

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Speaker 1: in creation. There's something about the ordering of time and

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Speaker 1: the keeping that time set apart that creates a cadence

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Speaker 1: in our lives, a sort of notion that God desires

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Speaker 1: to give rest somehow, a notion that God is the

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Speaker 1: ultimate provider and that our work is important but ultimately

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Speaker 1: insufficient in some way. Like there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: things I think we could tease out of that, but

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Speaker 1: it is interesting to think, like, you know, you have

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Speaker 1: the creation, then you have the Exodus reference in Deuteronomy five,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, Sabbath is a sign that we

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Speaker 1: are now under the order of God and how that

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Speaker 1: relates to the created order. Like, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: ways we could take this, So I'm kind of interested

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Speaker 1: to see, you know, where should we start. How do

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Speaker 1: we move from something like a Deuteronomy five twelve through

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Speaker 1: fifteen to a statement about who God is? And I

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Speaker 1: would say, I would argue that that needs to be

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Speaker 1: even apart from what's embedded in the text, right, that

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Speaker 1: God is the one who brought Israel out of slavery, right,

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Speaker 1: because that's explicit there. But I think there's more layer

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Speaker 1: to it. I don't know whether you both agree to that,

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Speaker 1: but maybe if I can start with Renee, like when

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Speaker 1: you think about creation Exodus narratively across Genesis through Exodus,

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Speaker 1: let's say, and then you think about Sabbath commands, is

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Speaker 1: there an intuitive sense in which that connects for you?

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Speaker 6: I'm not a hundred percent sure what you're asking. We talked,

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Speaker 6: Becky and I talked a.

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Speaker 8: Little bit last week, so I'll kind of I'll share

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Speaker 8: what where we went, and maybe it does.

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Speaker 6: And maybe it'll be like not what I was thinking

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Speaker 6: at all, But we were thinking about the difference.

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Speaker 8: I was thinking about the difference in the idea that

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Speaker 8: Creation is put forth.

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Speaker 9: In Exodus, and the Exodus is put forth in Deuteronomy.

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Speaker 9: But it's not because the Exodus hasn't happened in Exodus.

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Speaker 9: It just happened, right.

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Speaker 8: Like, here's something about it being so fresh in their

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Speaker 8: minds in this thing that again they're they're thinking about

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Speaker 8: and they're they're trying to make connections.

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Speaker 6: What is happening, like what just happened?

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Speaker 3: Who is this God? Who are we? What?

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Speaker 6: What's going on?

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Speaker 8: They're in the middle of that narrative of their life,

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Speaker 8: and so in the middle of actually experiencing it where

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Speaker 8: it's fresh, they need to hear about creation because there's

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Speaker 8: this recreating happening. And then as they move forward, there's

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Speaker 8: a way in which the Exodus almost supplants creation in

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Speaker 8: some ways where it's still it's still very important, it's

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Speaker 8: still part of all of their narrative, but it becomes

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Speaker 8: the pinnacle moment for the people that explains who they are,

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Speaker 8: even way.

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Speaker 6: After it's over.

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Speaker 8: And so there must be some way in which not

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Speaker 8: must be. Obviously, there is this way in which the

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Speaker 8: creation and the Exodus are connected so tightly that it

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Speaker 8: can it can take this place as they're going through it,

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Speaker 8: and then as after they go through it, the thing

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Speaker 8: they went through the Exodus can then sit in that

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Speaker 8: spot and do the same thing that Creation did in

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Speaker 8: the first way.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask this just as a follow up,

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Speaker 1: that's getting at what I'm thinking.

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Speaker 4: So you.

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Speaker 1: When you think about that connection creation, because there's been

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Speaker 1: a lot written on this. I remember Terrence FRETHEIM, I think,

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Speaker 1: wrote a book on connecting Creation and Exodus, and so

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Speaker 1: there's typeological things you can do with it, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's all these different connections you can make. But one

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Speaker 1: of the things I've always been sort of fascinated by

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Speaker 1: is the narrowing down to Israel. And I think ultimately

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Speaker 1: you can make the argument of narrowing down all the

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Speaker 1: way to Christ, but certainly in this setting, narrowing down

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Speaker 1: to Israel of a creation vocation. So now they are

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Speaker 1: the essentially, and I don't mean this vernacular in an

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Speaker 1: overly technical fashion, but they are the first born that

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Speaker 1: have now the they've taken up the mantle of carrying

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Speaker 1: the Covenant forward into these multiple generations. And part of

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Speaker 1: the way they would demonstrate that is by keeping the

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Speaker 1: law and for our purposes, keeping the Sabbath like and

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Speaker 1: that now connects them to this deeper creation vocation. Does

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Speaker 1: that ring true to your inn ae and you don't

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Speaker 1: you know?

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Speaker 10: Yeah, as you know, I'm doing this work with Jacob

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Speaker 10: right now and I'm literally in the think of thinking

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Speaker 10: about what he does and doesn't do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: And so as you're saying that, I'm just thinking, Yeah,

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Speaker 8: they have this creation mandate and yet they're not actually

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00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 8: doing it. Their participation in it is being the vessel

443
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 8: of God's promises. Yeah, and that that comes with not

444
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 8: doing at least one day of the week.

445
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 11: Hate.

446
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: I just think it's important to kind of get there

447
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: and wrestle with it because I don't know, and Becky,

448
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: y'all let you kind of wax philosophical on this, but

449
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: just so you understand why I'm taking this line of questionings, like,

450
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of important to situate it within

451
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: the overarching narrative that's come before at least a little bit,

452
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: and to me, that gives us some clues about what

453
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: we might say about God in this context. So I

454
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: don't know how you think about it, Becky, but i'd

455
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: be interested to hear your thoughts.

456
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to pad this by saying that One

457
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: of the things that I have personally learned about myself

458
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 2: by working with Renee is that my like charging in

459
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: and clashing at something to wrestle with it for my

460
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 2: sake can sound like shutting everything ouse down and proposing

461
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: something brand new.

462
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 4: So like, no, here's and that's not what I'm trying

463
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 4: to say.

464
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: In fact, when we podcast, here's a little spit, and

465
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 2: Renee's at our podcast table right now, and I'm but

466
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: we have a little thing on my desk that says

467
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: yes and so that I.

468
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 4: Can practice you know, no, no instead of doing that

469
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 4: saying yes. And so this is not to say this

470
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 4: is just my sorry, that's.

471
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And honestly that's how I mean this, even

472
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 2: when I'm combating it's but I I am not great

473
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 2: with philosophical ideas, and I am I always I am

474
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 2: trying to see, like simply what is going on, and

475
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: and so hyperbole, exaggeration, those are all black and white.

476
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: That's all part of how I do this. So this

477
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: is going to come through right now in that what

478
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: I'm hearing, I think, even in your language, James, is

479
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: something that I hear all the time in scholarship, and

480
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: it's very important but it's not how my brain works.

481
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: I will say that one of the things about talking

482
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: to you that's so helpful is I feel such a

483
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: safety to be who I am and what my brain.

484
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: I mean, it's wonderful to talk to you, and I

485
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: can start to figure out things that I'm hearing from

486
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: others that I'm not quite understanding.

487
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: But you keep I think you keep.

488
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: Talking about what's happening in the scriptures, even with Sabbath,

489
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: Biblical Lot, almost like it's on a timeline, a redemptive timeline,

490
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: and where the people are in that timeline and how

491
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: things are changing or how this affects them in order

492
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: to understand how God's working and moving. And that's I mean,

493
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 2: everybody is interested in that except me, So it's totally.

494
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 4: Valid and important and all.

495
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: Of those things for me, because I think I grew

496
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: up in that culture and I by nature combat anything

497
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: that's the standard so that I can understand it better.

498
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: I would almost go.

499
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: Far to say, and this is an exaggeration because it's

500
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: absolutely not true, I'm going to go back and ruin

501
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: everything and how the people look at the world. But

502
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: my exaggerated explanation would be I don't care at all

503
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: about the people. Now that's not true. But they're not

504
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: the thing that I'm trying to learn about. They're not

505
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: the peace that I want to emulate. They're not even

506
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: the piece usually that the author is telling us an

507
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 2: evaluation of how they're doing with God. So I, in

508
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: my very black and white kind of approach, which might

509
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: be unique to me, anytime i'm looking at what the

510
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: people's role is going to be. Before I get to

511
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: the very end of my working through something, I am

512
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 2: shutting myself down and going, no, I don't know. All

513
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: I really care about is what God is saying about himself.

514
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: So for example, yes, maybe the people are part of

515
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: a new creation. Then I see that. I see that,

516
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: but I see that as part of helping me understand

517
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: what God is saying about himself. So how does this apply,

518
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: for example, to Sabbath? Unless either of you want to

519
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: respond to that, because I know for me that it's

520
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: a little bit hyperbolic in the way I express it,

521
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: I can go there at.

522
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: Lea No, it's cool. I'll just say this. I don't

523
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: disagree with you, so when I was.

524
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 4: Doing honestly, I don't with you.

525
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 6: It's just the way I Yeah, I know, I know.

526
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: I think that I'm I would say, I'm doing something

527
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: very similar to what you're doing from a slightly different angle.

528
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: And so when I was doing my study on the Sabbath,

529
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: I actually was always thinking, I don't really care if

530
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: these wereite people practice is Abbath, it doesn't matter.

531
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: Reading your stuff that I read so far, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah.

532
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't I don't care, Like because it's inscribed

533
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: in the text, that is, and from the perspective I

534
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: was looking at, that is the cultural memory, that's what

535
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: is inscribed there, that just the inscription of it makes

536
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: it important. Whether they practice this or not, that doesn't

537
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: make any difference. And so when I'm talking about these

538
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:31,239
Speaker 1: sort of through scripture themes, my thinking is is more

539
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: attuned to what cultural memory is being reconstructed in the

540
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: moment where the Sabbath command is being written down and regiven.

541
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and in.

542
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: My in my sort of constellation, in the way I

543
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: think about it, God is a social agent within the

544
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: setting of Israel, and he's pictured that way in scripture.

545
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: And so when I'm doing that, I'm assuming a lot

546
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: that I'm not saying your articulate So I think that's

547
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: why I resonate exactly with what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

548
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: that's exactly what I'm doing. But I'm not making it

549
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: clear I'm not, so I'll just say.

550
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: That you're polite. I'm just like guys.

551
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: And I'm also used to working with students who don't

552
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: understand the differences. So if I look at all of scripture,

553
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: which I do, this is my biblical theology as the

554
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: revelation of God, and He is outworking with creation, which.

555
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: Happens to hold.

556
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: We talked about this in the Genesis podcast. Humanity in

557
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: a very special place, but it's with all creation. So

558
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: everything in scripture is for me revealing more about the

559
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: character of God. And this may or may not be

560
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: too simplistic, but there are places when He is giving

561
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: explicit instructions or descriptions of who he is, and they

562
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: just are emphatic statements, here's who I am, and we

563
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: have language for it, but we can't understandstand the depth

564
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: or extent of what it means when God does these things.

565
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 2: When I am patient, it means I put up with

566
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 2: my granddaughter who's now a toddler and could just be

567
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,479
Speaker 2: walking through and meeting her at her level all day

568
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: without losing my temper. When God is patient, he will

569
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: watch people murder children in the name of religion for

570
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: thousands of years without wiping them off the planet. So

571
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: we're talking to different levels of all these things whatever.

572
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: So it makes his descriptive statements. But because those, again

573
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: are so beyond what we can grasp, he also shows

574
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: examples of who he is. And I know they're written

575
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: by human authors, but I and that comes a big

576
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 2: play in my understanding of literature in the Old Testament.

577
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: But those are like when you have a relationship with

578
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: a person or a people group. For God, because he

579
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: lives a lot longer than we do over time, we

580
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: call that history. And so he's got all of these

581
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 2: examples of how he has walked from the beginning of

582
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: time when he created them until like the story of Esther,

583
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: where even though they're not anywhere near their old practices

584
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: that they could do and they feel like God's already

585
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: rejected them and thrown them out, He's coming back and saying,

586
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: look at the insane things I'm going to do to

587
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: protect you. So all the way through he's showing who

588
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: he is in relationship to them, and we can I

589
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: think it's really important to talk about the history of it,

590
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 2: the story of it, all of those things. But then

591
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 2: he has like these prescriptive pieces where I haven't tried

592
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 2: this word before. Renee just said something that triggered it

593
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: in me. She talked about how story is so an

594
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: important way of communicating or everything you said about story

595
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: to me, law is practiced story. So if story is

596
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: showing us what God looks like in tangible form as

597
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 2: he's dealing with his people, then law is like, okay,

598
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: now you go practice it. And for for me, one

599
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: of the law is always going to be telling us

600
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: something more about the character of God. And I gave

601
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: this example last time in Deuteronomy ten, when it says

602
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: like I took care of you when you were foreigners

603
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 2: in Egypt, and I took.

604
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 3: Care of you, so you go.

605
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: Take care of other foreigners in your land going to

606
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: fundamentally look like I do because of who I am.

607
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: And there's all kinds of implications for that, for like

608
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: what that tells us about God. But for right now,

609
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: holding onto that idea that behind his instruction is something

610
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: he wants us to understand about him, and he wants

611
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 2: us to understand it by practicing it, and in Sabbath

612
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 2: by practicing it regularly, literally every seven days, which I

613
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: remember the day I learned that it was.

614
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 3: Likely that God didn't.

615
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 4: Invent the seven days, but that.

616
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: The structure of a week was already in place in

617
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: society because they understood things.

618
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 3: It's not that he didn't invent.

619
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: It, but but that he was using a time structure

620
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,479
Speaker 2: to say regularly in the way you order time.

621
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 12: And the thing behind the thing, the thing about God

622
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 12: that both the reasons he gives.

623
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 2: That we're supposed to reflect. In other words, we're doing

624
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: the law because it's telling us something about who he is,

625
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 2: and the becausees are because on the seventh day I

626
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: rested and I created. I created everything, and I created

627
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 2: it all perfectly. And on the seventh day I rested

628
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: and you were in slavery and I rescued you. And

629
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: so those are both pictures.

630
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 3: Of this fulfillment.

631
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: And I can't wait to go read the book connecting

632
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: Creation and Exodus, because I'm seeing a clear connection between

633
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 2: those two.

634
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: But those are pictures.

635
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 4: Of the completion, the perfection, the.

636
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: Redemptive elements of God. And he doesn't ask us to

637
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: do something to practice completion, or he asks us to

638
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: not do anything and rest in the fact that he

639
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: has done it. So, when I'm talking to students about

640
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: Genesis one, if we have enough time, one of the

641
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 2: things I like to tell them is I know that culturally,

642
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: we have had a long history of getting like is

643
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: it seven days or isn't it? And can you be

644
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: a Christian if you think da da da da da

645
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: da da da? And what does this have to do

646
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 2: with science? And I'm like, if I told you that

647
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: all of the creation narrative was leading up to a day,

648
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: a weekly practice of celebrating, for lack of a better word, heaven,

649
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: wouldn't that mystery and the desire to experience that and

650
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: overshadow that? Or wouldn't that overshadow any question of like

651
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: how this happened?

652
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 3: Or That's not the point.

653
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: The point is, Oh, my goodness, I serve a God

654
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: who sees me, whether it's in the chaos or the redemption.

655
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: And he has promised to do this thing, and he's

656
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: done it before like twice now, once for the globe

657
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 2: and once for the Israelite people, and he's gonna do

658
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 2: it again. And my participation in it is to recognize

659
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: that he's gonna do it, and how crazy that.

660
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 4: He picked, Like these are things you can teach a

661
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 4: five year old, like, no, today, we don't have to

662
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 4: work because God does the work. I remember Doctor Block

663
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 4: had a huge influence on me.

664
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 2: He's like the ninth of thirteen children from Saskatchewan, you know, like.

665
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: You need a story like that.

666
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: And his dad was a potato farmer and you know

667
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: they have like a three.

668
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 4: Bedroom whatever, Like he has these crazy stories.

669
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: And his dad was the only farmer in the area

670
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: that refused to work on Saturday and it sometimes was

671
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: life or death. I mean, if the hail is coming,

672
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: you have a shook up today when you don't, and

673
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: his dad would be like no, which I'm not.

674
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 3: Saying that's how we should live.

675
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 2: I'm saying that example, that picture of how he did

676
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: live impacts even me in terms of what it meant

677
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: to him that where his role in this process was.

678
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 2: He's invited in, but he's not in charge like all

679
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: of these people.

680
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 6: God's got it.

681
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 2: And even in practicing Sabbath, because we can talk about

682
00:41:54,360 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: the practical of it, sometimes we're sabbathing from where that

683
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: feels like you're so needed in the equation sometimes we're

684
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: sabbathing from something that even if we work on, we

685
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 2: cannot fix. I remember when my mom was walking through cancer,

686
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 2: or when Karl was walking through cancer. You know, Sabbath

687
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: almost seems to fly in the face of that because

688
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: I can't fix it. God might not fix it now,

689
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: those kinds of things, but I'm reminded that he, like

690
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: I feel like about greet, that he will. He will

691
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: redeem everything. So for me, grief doesn't have as much

692
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 2: immediate hope as some Christians like to encourage me toward.

693
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 4: I don't want that someday.

694
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 3: I want it now.

695
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 4: But one day a week.

696
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: I can rest in the hope and then I let

697
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: myself just grieve with the other six days still even

698
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: a year later, because.

699
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 4: I want immedia fixes for these things, but I can.

700
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: I can set that aside regularly and go, Okay, you're

701
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 2: right God, I don't have to brave this one who

702
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 2: doesn't have hope.

703
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: I don't quite know what to do with.

704
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: That, but regularly I can remind myself and reinfuse that.

705
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:25,959
Speaker 2: And that's one of my goofy Sabbath practices. Anyway, all

706
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: of that to say, what behind the Sabbath for me?

707
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: Is what God wants us to understand about who he is.

708
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: And I think it's very significant that the Bible like

709
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 2: begins with I did it all perfectly and ends with

710
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 2: and I'm going to fix it all again.

711
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and once a week we sit in that.

712
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: Let me so, I think we want to transition to

713
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 1: the practical side of this, unless Renee, you have anything

714
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: to add, No.

715
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 6: Let's let's keep going.

716
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll just say this. I think that as we

717
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: look at the law, there are laws that are much

718
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: more challenging than the Sabbath to understand how to see

719
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: the character of God behind them.

720
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 4: Right.

721
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: I was just doing some research on Deuteronomy twenty three

722
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: to one the other day. This is about people with

723
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: crushed testicles not being able to enter the assembly and.

724
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 13: The vidical someone, Right, I mean, you've got these really

725
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 13: for what are for us strange laws that are simply

726
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 13: stated with no real commentary.

727
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: And I think that one of the reasons I like

728
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: the Sabbath laws. I think some of the other ones

729
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: that we talked about, we've talked about, you know, muzzling

730
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: the oxen, when is treading grain? Right? All these is

731
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: because they start to give you glimpses of what we're

732
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: how we're supposed to read the law. God's more explicit,

733
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: and that's what I mean by commentaries giving more explicit

734
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: texture to each of these laws. And so you sit

735
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: back and you go, well, is it just for this

736
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: one or is it for a bunch of others? And

737
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: I think, combined with Renee what you mentioned about the

738
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: story and the narrative, where we understand the stories, we

739
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: see the stories, we get an understanding of how the

740
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: dynamic works between us and God, who God is and

741
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: who we are in relation to him. This then adds

742
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: forced as we move into the law. And now we

743
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: look at something like the Sabbath command where at first

744
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: rooted in creation, then rooted in Exodus, and you go, oh,

745
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: I'm starting to get it. Now, I'm starting to see

746
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 1: why how we're supposed to read these laws. It's not

747
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: just a checklist that my to do list for the day.

748
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 1: It's now shaping something of who God is that I'm

749
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: supposed to respond to. And these laws help the Israelites

750
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: to respond to God. Right, they were to help the

751
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: Israelites respond to God, but not just that, they're also helped.

752
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: They're also to help me respond to God to understand

753
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 1: who he is, and as we respond that may look

754
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: very very different. And I think so as we pivot

755
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: over into Sabbath, it can be easy when you read

756
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: the rest of the ten commandments, right, well, you know,

757
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: should we keep should we not murder in the same

758
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: way the Israelized didn't murder? Should we not steal in

759
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: the same way the Israelites? And still and you're kind

760
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 1: of like there's a little one to one that comes

761
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: across culturally, like those are pretty yeah, maybe stealings kind

762
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: of we keep that one, right, It's it's pretty steady.

763
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: But Sabbath is one of those where we kind of

764
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: sit back and go, I'm sorry, go ahead.

765
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,439
Speaker 3: It just doesn't need redefinition.

766
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: Culturally, it really doesn't. But the Sabbath is one of

767
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: those that I think, really does, you know, it really

768
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: does need a redefinition. It's got some some robustness to

769
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: it that I think we have to sort of revisit

770
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: in and say, is this really about taking Sunday off?

771
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: Is that a necessary application or practical outworking of this

772
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: command or could it be an optional way depending on

773
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: where we are in the world right now. So I'll

774
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: kind of leave it there, but I wanted to give

775
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: people a little bit of a framework, like as they're

776
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: reading the law. I think these are really great touch

777
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: points to go. This isn't an exceptional way of reading

778
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: the law. It's probably the normative way of reading the law,

779
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: and it should inform the way we read some of

780
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: the odder ones that we run into. That's right. So

781
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 1: with all that sort of preamble out of the way,

782
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: I'll just start with it. I'm interested to understand how

783
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: each of you would think about Sabbath. Now, Becky, you've

784
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: already kind of given us a little bit of glimpse,

785
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: and how you do this? Renee, do you think how

786
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: do you think about Sabbath in your daily life? Do

787
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: you do you think about it? Is this something you practice? Yeah,

788
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: just thoughts.

789
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 6: I don't have.

790
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 8: I don't have really hard and fast like ritual or

791
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 8: rhythm that I adhere to. I think that's probably primarily

792
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 8: because I'm the mom of four, so having people in

793
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 8: my stead like, there's a lot of life that I

794
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 8: don't I don't have control over anyway. But I will

795
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 8: say that the idea at least of.

796
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 6: I mean, let's just even take like the most obvious,

797
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 6: like we go to church every Sunday. We go to

798
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 6: church every Sunday as a family.

799
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 8: And that didn't used to seem like such a thing,

800
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 8: like we didn't make it a really hard and fest rule.

801
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 6: It was a pattern to our life.

802
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 8: As our kids have gotten older and we've also moved

803
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 8: to a different area of the country.

804
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 6: More of the rest of life is starting to ask

805
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 6: for that time from us.

806
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 8: I've got kids in athletics and oportunities to be in

807
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 8: greater athletics or traveling athletics, or even just social things,

808
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 8: and as that is kind of like coming in and

809
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 8: asking for more of us we have, we have laid a.

810
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,399
Speaker 6: Pattern of Sundays being a day that we attend church

811
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 6: together and we eat lunch together and like.

812
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 4: It.

813
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 3: It's funny.

814
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 6: I would say, like, well, I don't know that, I

815
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 6: like really like I.

816
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 11: Make this my Sabbath, but it is just a part

817
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 11: of our life that now I see is giving me

818
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 11: reason to push back against some of that more taking from.

819
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 3: Us, And uh, yeah, I don't know.

820
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 8: I think that's probably the the most obvious primary way

821
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 8: in which we we we do as a family. I

822
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 8: think our kids just kind of assume it's just built in.

823
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 8: We don't you don't talk about it really heavily, like

824
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 8: this is our Sabbath.

825
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 6: This is what we're teaching you.

826
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 8: But it just is part of our life and it's

827
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 8: and that's what sabbath is intended to be, like, not

828
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 8: an arbitrary, legalistic thing, but.

829
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 6: A rhythm and a pattern.

830
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 8: And so that that's probably the primarily way that it

831
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 8: shows up in my life because of the season of

832
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 8: life that I'm in.

833
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I resonate with that. You know, I've got four kids,

834
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: three of which are still I guess my son's twenty

835
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: and so he's still around, but he's much more doing

836
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: his own thing now. But yeah, the others are still

837
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: need things and that. You know, my girls do travel

838
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: sports and that's been interesting and challenging, I will say that.

839
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: And I think that as we've done the travel sports

840
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: thing and have been gone on Sundays or war pulls

841
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: us away on Sundays, what I've experienced is there is

842
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: a real grind that you can get into. I remember this.

843
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: I was working as a personal trainer through my MDiv

844
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: and I used to work Monday through Saturday. So we

845
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: were poor and I had to pay rent, and so

846
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: I'd worked forty hours a week plus do my master

847
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: you know, like I had a full time job. And

848
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: so my boss scheduled me some clients on a Sunday

849
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: one week.

850
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 4: And.

851
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: You know, I was in my twenties, Like you feel

852
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: pretty much invulnerable to anything in your twenties, right, And

853
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: so I remember going in that Sunday training the clients,

854
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 1: going back on Monday, and by the next Saturday being

855
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: absolutely exhausted. It was only a couple of clients on

856
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: a Sunday, you know, no big deal, It's not like

857
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: it was all day or whatever. I was absolutely fried.

858
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: And I think that feeling of man, those weeks just

859
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: ran together. There's no punctuation or separate there's no sacredness

860
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: of time within that where you get to sort of

861
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: break things up and go, no, now this work week

862
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: is over, this next week, work week is going to start.

863
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: But in this center part I have this sacred moment.

864
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: I think we sometimes when we're doing the travel, sports

865
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. Now I start to

866
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,439
Speaker 1: feel that way. It's as enjoyable as it is, much

867
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: more fun than working, but as enjoyable as it is,

868
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: you do start to like something starts to nag at

869
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 1: you like you're missing something, and so I would say, yeah,

870
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 1: Sabbath practice has become something I'm much more keen to

871
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: over the last several years when we've been doing a

872
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: lot of that and trying to figure out, like, what

873
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: does this really look like in the midst of busy

874
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: schedules that don't always line up and you know whatever,

875
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: and so it's been interesting. But I will say I

876
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: think for a big part of mine is just an

877
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: internal clock that I don't always pay attention to, which

878
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: is you're you've done enough work, you can stop now. Right.

879
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: My internal clock says you've done enough work, you can

880
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: stop now. Doesn't always work right. I usually hit the

881
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: snooze alarm, you know, or whatever we want to say.

882
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: And so I'll find myself overworked on these sort of

883
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 1: quasi regular bases and I'm like, no, man, I gotta

884
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: I gotta stop like this, this this constant stuff has

885
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: to end. And so I think there's a there's a

886
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: built in sort of mechanism, at least in my life

887
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: where I just sit back and say I should have

888
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: been taking the rest. Now I really need the rest.

889
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,439
Speaker 1: Why is it that I just don't take the rest

890
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: more regularly. So that's my experience with Sabbath, and yeah,

891
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: having written a dissertation on it, it's always puzzling that

892
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 1: I can't figure it out.

893
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 2: So Yeah, what I'm loving about this conversation is that

894
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 2: what I'm hearing reflected, and I hear it really strongly

895
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 2: because I resonate with it in my own life so

896
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: deeply is the invitation and the freedom and the benefits.

897
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 4: Would totally devoid of.

898
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 2: Roles and definition and here's what day of the week.

899
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes for Christians when we get in

900
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 2: this conversation, we're so afraid of doing it wrong because

901
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 2: we're required that we're asking for all these definitions around it.

902
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 3: And it's not that there shouldn't be any.

903
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 4: I don't know, they're not clear.

904
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 3: I have no idea.

905
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 2: So instead of addressing all that, what I usually tell people,

906
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 2: including myself, because I am a oh, if there could

907
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 2: be a rule, I will feel safe and I can

908
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 2: follow it.

909
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 3: Or I can break it. I'm breaking it, but one

910
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 3: or the other.

911
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 2: And as believers, we need to understand that if we

912
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,439
Speaker 2: break it all the time, that's already paid for, that's

913
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 2: already taken like the messing up part is already taken

914
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 2: care of, and like it's okay. So I'm hearing you

915
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 2: guys talk about it from a very practical.

916
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: Place, and I.

917
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:31,479
Speaker 2: Think that's what it's supposed to be. So I find

918
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 2: that absolutely beautiful. My experience, like Renet, four kids, grad school,

919
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 2: crazy life, dissertation, period of life was really intense for me.

920
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 2: I had eight pregnancies during this time, so my body

921
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 2: was a mass, my heart was a mess because we

922
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 2: were grieving losses.

923
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 3: We were broke. Is dirt, I mean, the whole thing,

924
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 3: the whole Becky.

925
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 2: Lives above and beyond and does not know how to stop,

926
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: or doesn't feel sufficient ever, so doesn't stop.

927
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 3: And so for me, when it became most crucial.

928
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 2: Was when things were at such a high stake for

929
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 2: completion that the only way it was going to happen

930
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 2: was with built in pause. And so Sabbath became most

931
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,320
Speaker 2: important to me at the time when I could afford

932
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 2: it the least. And it wasn't like I it wasn't

933
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 2: that I sat and thought, oh, today I can remember

934
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 2: that God doesn't need me to do this, and that

935
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't any of that. It was literally

936
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,839
Speaker 2: like as a believer. I know I'm supposed to do this,

937
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,720
Speaker 2: and I don't know how to not like I'm dying.

938
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 3: I'm not keeping up. And then once I applied.

939
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:06,879
Speaker 2: That, our whole family did. I didn't try to get

940
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 2: things done on Saturday. We went to church and things

941
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 2: like that, but I didn't try to do a dissertation.

942
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 2: Jim didn't schedule work, We didn't at times, we didn't

943
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 2: even cook.

944
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 6: We were look like we're exhausted.

945
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: There was no homeschooling, there was no anything, and that

946
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 2: became so physically empowering that I ended up getting I

947
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 2: didn't even understand the theology of it, but in my

948
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: case at that didn't matter. I ended up reaping the

949
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: benefits and then seeing behind it like, oh, you are finite,

950
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 2: you know, and you are totally dependent and you aren't

951
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 2: really that needed by God, and it's you know, all

952
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 2: of these things and it is going to be okay,

953
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: and you don't have that much, you know, so I

954
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 2: warn excuse me. I learned those things that have very

955
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 2: important time, like renee. We don't have firm rules or

956
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 2: days or expectations, but it's a privilege I wholeheartedly step into.

957
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 3: As someone who.

958
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: Needs a social excuse to take a break, because it doesn't.

959
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 2: I don't feel valuable enough to just say, oh, because

960
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: I need one. And that's what that's what zabbe it

961
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 2: is to me, and I don't. It feels like I

962
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: should apologize for that, but I feel like that's what

963
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 2: it was ven for.

964
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting. And so I read a

965
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: quote the other day. It was I got on Facebook

966
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: and I write a quote on Facebook. It was a

967
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: really horrible idea, but it was men don't fail because

968
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: they're too aggressive. Men fail more often because they're too passive.

969
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 1: It's because they wait and they refuse to act. And

970
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of one of those quotes, and

971
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: I can't quote verbatim, but when I thought about it,

972
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: I have this idea that I kind of come back to.

973
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: It's a little pithy statement that I say, but our

974
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: role is to respond to God from within a situation,

975
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: not to respond to the situation as if God were

976
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: active or irrelevant. And so when I read things like that,

977
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: they're so hard one way, right, as if in activity

978
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: and passivity restraint, right, are just really leaning you toward failure.

979
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: I think to myself, No, We've got to be able

980
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 1: to respond to God from within the situation, as opposed

981
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: to responding to the situation as if God were absent

982
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: or irrelevant. One of the range, one of the responses

983
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: within that range to respond faithfully to God has to

984
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 1: be to rest. And I think that because we generally

985
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 1: don't have this sort of and I think it's been eroded.

986
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: We used to have more of a Sunday's off, nothing's open,

987
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: there's no sports like that. Time used to be guarded.

988
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 1: It's not anymore. And I'm not I'm very seldom a

989
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: fan of, hey, let's let's bring the horses back in

990
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: the barn, right, And I think culture moves past and

991
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: and and that one act just probably isn't going to

992
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 1: work that well. Like things have to shift and change

993
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 1: in much more complex ways. And so as we are.

994
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: I almost think of it as the Jews without the temple,

995
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: and they stand there and they say, then what do

996
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: we do right? And they come up with all and yes,

997
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 1: they take some blasts the gospels, but I think a

998
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 1: lot of times what they're trying to do at heart

999
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: is how do we walk with God? How we demonstrate

1000
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 1: that we are His people? Without the Temple because it

1001
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: was kind of central to us. And I think we

1002
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: should be thinking about Sabbath in much the same way,

1003
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: given that Sunday has been co opted for a number

1004
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: of different purposes and it's no longer reserved just for worship,

1005
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: How do we now build sacred time back into our

1006
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: lives given that we no longer really have access to Sunday?

1007
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: And I think that that then lends itself to how

1008
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: do we respond to God in the moment, as opposed

1009
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: to responding to the situation, you know, as if hey,

1010
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: all Christians stop doing any travels, for stop doing anything else,

1011
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: you've got to be back in church on Sunday. Like

1012
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: I suppose that's the utopian vision, but I just don't

1013
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 1: think it's particularly realistic, and it's certainly not that helpful,

1014
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 1: And so to me, it's like that's probably the wrong

1015
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: direction to go. The right direction goes to say, how

1016
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 1: do we help Christians understand how to cultivate sacred time

1017
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: in a cultural moment where busyness is driving us further

1018
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 1: and further away, not just from Sunday but from dependence

1019
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: on God, sort of like what you were talking about, Becky.

1020
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to real quickly just add one for

1021
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 2: those people who are listening and are like, Okay, that

1022
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 2: all sounds good, but how do I.

1023
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 3: Know that that's biblical.

1024
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 2: I always need those concrete like something from the Bible

1025
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 2: that blows up my view of what I think Sabbath

1026
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 2: has to be. So when in Ezra ni Amayah and

1027
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 2: I don't remember if it's there or I think it is,

1028
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:43,080
Speaker 2: or hey, guy, but I think it's Ezra Yamayah, when

1029
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:51,439
Speaker 2: the people are breaking Sabbath constantly because yeah, yeah, God

1030
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 2: tells the Levites.

1031
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 3: Two go work strap on.

1032
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: I think they step on story but I can't quite remember,

1033
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 2: and stand at the gates and monitor, which is a.

1034
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 5: Job like this sometime, yeah, go see something right, And

1035
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 5: so the other people don't do something and.

1036
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 4: You're like what, And for me, that takes this like if.

1037
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 2: Israel was obeying it, they would literally be laying in

1038
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 2: their tents all day eating manna from yesterday and would

1039
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 2: ree re emerge from their hibernation on Monday morning and

1040
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: no one would have.

1041
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 3: Anything.

1042
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 2: And that's not consistent with even how it's portrayed. So

1043
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 2: the fact that it gets a little muddied sometimes, yeah,

1044
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:56,439
Speaker 2: is part of even how God is instructing it in

1045
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: the Bible, and I don't think we need to be

1046
01:03:58,920 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 2: scared by that.

1047
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 3: We can be a little botfold. We can.

1048
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: You know so well, I think you have the Jesus passages,

1049
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 1: you know, where he's healing all the Sabbath and those

1050
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: kind of things too, and you you sort of step back,

1051
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: and you what you realize is, Okay, we shouldn't trivialize

1052
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: the Sabbath, but we shouldn't make an idol of it either,

1053
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: And so we've got to we've got to recognize that

1054
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: sacred time is sacred not because that time is reserved

1055
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: for inactivity. It's sacred because we are to be honoring

1056
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 1: God within it. And so there's a there's sort of

1057
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 1: a different texture, I think, to what we're looking at

1058
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 1: when we think about Sabbath. And even just to sort

1059
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 1: of almost end where we started with Hebrews. You know,

1060
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 1: you have this rest that is coming for the people

1061
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 1: of God, and so they're even in Hebrews, you have

1062
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: this sort of widening out of what it means to

1063
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: have rest. It isn't just this Seventh Day that everybody

1064
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 1: wants to do. It's something further down the road that

1065
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 1: we now will participate in the rest that God is

1066
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: already doing.

1067
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 10: So.

1068
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 1: You know, throw it out there. Any last words otherwise

1069
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: we'll close this one out last thoughts, really helpful conversation.

1070
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 1: Appreciate it, everybody, and hopefully this is fun for everybody

1071
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: else too, Sab It's one of my favorite topics, so

1072
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 1: I really appreciate y'all having this conversation with me, and

1073
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: thanks everybody for taking the time to listen. In all right,

1074
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: we'll call it a day there and we'll catch you

1075
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want

1076
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: to take a second to thank the team at Life

1077
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast.

1078
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens

1079
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got

1080
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.