1 00:00:02,710 --> 00:00:08,900 Speaker 1: Life Audio Surrender is rarely dramatic at first. Most of 2 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:11,220 Speaker 1: the time, it looks like releasing our grip a little 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:13,500 Speaker 1: at a time, letting go of the life we thought 4 00:00:13,540 --> 00:00:15,940 Speaker 1: we would have, or trusting God in the middle of 5 00:00:16,020 --> 00:00:19,939 Speaker 1: unanswered questions. We open our hands when we would much 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: rather protect, control, or hold tightly to what feels safe. 7 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:27,610 Speaker 1: And yet, some of the deepest peace we experience with 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,110 Speaker 1: God comes not when everything finally makes sense, but when 9 00:00:30,130 --> 00:00:32,490 Speaker 1: we are able to but when we stop resisting His 10 00:00:32,590 --> 00:00:36,190 Speaker 1: presence in the middle of what doesn't. In this conversation, 11 00:00:36,250 --> 00:00:39,370 Speaker 1: Vivian Mabuni reminds us that following Jesus is not about 12 00:00:39,470 --> 00:00:43,710 Speaker 1: performing our way into approval or mastering the Christian life 13 00:00:44,010 --> 00:00:48,130 Speaker 1: through sheer effort. It's about cultivating a willing heart, a 14 00:00:48,190 --> 00:00:50,810 Speaker 1: posture that says yes to God even when the road 15 00:00:50,950 --> 00:00:55,910 Speaker 1: ahead feels uncertain. Hi friends, I'm Jem Fadling, and this 16 00:00:55,990 --> 00:00:58,950 Speaker 1: is the Unhurried Living Podcast where we inspire you to 17 00:00:59,050 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: rest deeper, live fuller, Through personal story, honest reflection, and 18 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,300 Speaker 1: decades of ministry experience, Vivian invites us into a deeper trust, 19 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,660 Speaker 1: one that can carry us through disappointment, change, fear, and 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,670 Speaker 1: even the unexpected turn life inevitably brings. This is a 21 00:01:19,709 --> 00:01:24,050 Speaker 1: conversation for anyone who feels tired of striving, weary of control, 22 00:01:24,550 --> 00:01:27,649 Speaker 1: or hungry to experience God in a more surrendered and 23 00:01:27,709 --> 00:01:31,690 Speaker 1: meaningful way. After a word from our sponsor, we'll dive 24 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:43,810 Speaker 1: into our conversation for today. Like this episode, I'd love 25 00:01:43,830 --> 00:01:46,190 Speaker 1: for you to follow us. And if you're watching on YouTube, 26 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,740 Speaker 1: please subscribe. It's free and it helps Unhurried Living be 27 00:01:49,780 --> 00:01:53,940 Speaker 1: discovered by more people. Well, today we're joined by author, speaker, 28 00:01:54,060 --> 00:01:58,570 Speaker 1: and longtime ministry leader, Vivian Mabuni. Vivian has spent decades 29 00:01:58,630 --> 00:02:02,590 Speaker 1: helping people discover a deeper life with God through honesty, courage, 30 00:02:02,990 --> 00:02:07,060 Speaker 1: and surrender. Her book, Open Hands, Willing Heart, explores what 31 00:02:07,090 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: it means to live with open hands before God, especially 32 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,980 Speaker 1: when life does not unfold the way we expected. Vivian 33 00:02:14,020 --> 00:02:17,740 Speaker 1: shares from her own story with remarkable warmth and vulnerability, 34 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:23,810 Speaker 1: offering wisdom for anyone navigating disappointment, uncertainty, transition, or just 35 00:02:23,820 --> 00:02:26,430 Speaker 1: the daily challenge of trusting God in a hurried and 36 00:02:26,570 --> 00:02:30,070 Speaker 1: anxious world. If you've ever found yourself wanting to say 37 00:02:30,110 --> 00:02:32,730 Speaker 1: yes to God while also feeling afraid of what that 38 00:02:32,790 --> 00:02:37,510 Speaker 1: yes might require, this conversation will meet you there with honesty, grace, 39 00:02:38,050 --> 00:02:44,930 Speaker 1: and hope. Enjoy my conversation with Vivian. Well, welcome Vivian Mabuni, 40 00:02:45,030 --> 00:02:45,830 Speaker 1: my neighbor. 41 00:02:45,850 --> 00:02:48,549 Speaker 2: Yes. Can you believe it? Yes. 42 00:02:49,940 --> 00:02:54,300 Speaker 1: We connected through some mutual friends. And when we found 43 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,299 Speaker 1: out that we lived in the same city, we're probably 44 00:02:57,380 --> 00:02:59,980 Speaker 1: only what, three miles away from each other, maybe two. 45 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:00,419 Speaker 2: Yeah. 46 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: We could have done this in person, I suppose. 47 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: We crossed paths with each other at the grocery store 48 00:03:05,460 --> 00:03:06,299 Speaker 2: and just never knew. 49 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:09,980 Speaker 1: I'm sure that's so true. Well, I'm delighted that you've 50 00:03:10,020 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: said yes to our podcast. And I've been really looking 51 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: forward to talking to you. There's so many beautiful stories. 52 00:03:16,810 --> 00:03:19,450 Speaker 1: I even texted you when I was reading Because there's 53 00:03:19,530 --> 00:03:23,770 Speaker 1: one that literally made me cry. So just beautiful stories. 54 00:03:23,810 --> 00:03:27,810 Speaker 1: But anyway, today we're talking about open hands and willing heart. 55 00:03:27,870 --> 00:03:31,140 Speaker 1: And we are going to talk about hopefulness a lot. 56 00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: But I actually want to stop off here at the 57 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: beginning for just to acknowledge the people for whom that 58 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,540 Speaker 1: feels like a big leap just right off the start. 59 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,220 Speaker 1: So I know we're going to be easing into having hope. 60 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,059 Speaker 1: in the darkness or in whatever's going on, but for 61 00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: someone for whom even this conversation, how do I trust 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: God when things aren't going the way I want? 63 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: Right. 64 00:03:51,580 --> 00:03:54,620 Speaker 1: What would you say to that person? Um, maybe here 65 00:03:54,660 --> 00:03:57,660 Speaker 1: just in the unknown or in the before. 66 00:04:01,230 --> 00:04:05,710 Speaker 2: I really love that question because probably more people are 67 00:04:05,790 --> 00:04:09,430 Speaker 2: in that space than we would care to acknowledge. Um, 68 00:04:10,370 --> 00:04:21,620 Speaker 2: people who attend church with even a hesitancy because they're struggling. 69 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:29,310 Speaker 2: And to struggle is so human. My encouragement for that listener, 70 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 2: for myself even, is really how... What a gift that 71 00:04:37,339 --> 00:04:41,900 Speaker 2: God invites us in every stage that we're in. There's 72 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,099 Speaker 2: no need to clean up our act in order to 73 00:04:45,339 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: access God. So he already knows that we're struggling. He 74 00:04:51,870 --> 00:04:57,130 Speaker 2: knows exactly the state of our heart. And I think 75 00:04:57,190 --> 00:04:59,770 Speaker 2: of being with good friends. There are times when we 76 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:01,750 Speaker 2: meet up for coffee and I'm in a great mood. 77 00:05:01,810 --> 00:05:03,969 Speaker 2: And there are times we meet up for coffee and 78 00:05:04,150 --> 00:05:06,420 Speaker 2: I just had a fight with my husband and Life 79 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:12,100 Speaker 2: is not awesome. And with a good friend, I'm able 80 00:05:12,140 --> 00:05:16,140 Speaker 2: to just bring who I am authentically to the relationship. 81 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,099 Speaker 2: And so in the same way, my encouragement to the 82 00:05:18,140 --> 00:05:22,460 Speaker 2: listener who is struggling is that that struggle is so 83 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,830 Speaker 2: real and understood by God and welcomed so that that 84 00:05:26,910 --> 00:05:30,330 Speaker 2: becomes our prayer. It's just the real honest truth. Like, 85 00:05:30,430 --> 00:05:32,070 Speaker 2: I don't even want to be here right now, God. 86 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: I am finding it very hard to trust you. My 87 00:05:35,860 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: circumstances don't look like how I thought they would be. 88 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:43,980 Speaker 2: And I'm coming here stomping my feet a little bit, 89 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,940 Speaker 2: but I'm showing up. I'm mad. And that's okay. And 90 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,060 Speaker 2: I just feel like there's much more freedom in our 91 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,990 Speaker 2: relationship with God when we understand that we don't have 92 00:05:56,050 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: to come all pretty and fixed up that he receives 93 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,060 Speaker 2: us in every state that we're in. It doesn't threaten 94 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:05,700 Speaker 2: him in any way. 95 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,700 Speaker 1: So good. I'm really glad we started here because I'm 96 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,860 Speaker 1: just becoming more and more aware of everybody is carrying 97 00:06:13,940 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: something right now. I don't know someone who isn't either 98 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: struggling themselves or is walking alongside someone else who is 99 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,049 Speaker 1: struggling in some way. And I think it's always good 100 00:06:28,230 --> 00:06:30,450 Speaker 1: to remember that we can come as we are. 101 00:06:32,130 --> 00:06:32,370 Speaker 2: Yeah. 102 00:06:33,190 --> 00:06:38,250 Speaker 1: So, so good. Thank you for opening up our conversation 103 00:06:38,330 --> 00:06:40,810 Speaker 1: in such a gracious way like that. So I hope 104 00:06:40,870 --> 00:06:43,450 Speaker 1: everybody can now buckle in. And I really want to 105 00:06:43,470 --> 00:06:46,230 Speaker 1: just talk about more of what you've said in your 106 00:06:46,270 --> 00:06:52,300 Speaker 1: book here. You know, sometimes when we're talking about the 107 00:06:52,330 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: way life goes, sometimes we find ourselves wanting to tell 108 00:06:56,740 --> 00:06:57,780 Speaker 1: God how it's going to be. 109 00:06:58,440 --> 00:06:58,770 Speaker 2: Right. 110 00:06:58,830 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: Right. This is how it should go, Lord. This is 111 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:04,620 Speaker 1: my prayer, you know, like this is the way it 112 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,060 Speaker 1: should be. And of course we can pour out our heart, 113 00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: of course. But sometimes we also rely on past formulas 114 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: or just, you know, an agenda that we have. What 115 00:07:14,020 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: do you propose maybe instead of that? 116 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,230 Speaker 2: Well, I heard my husband and I speak at marriage 117 00:07:21,260 --> 00:07:25,590 Speaker 2: conferences and one of the couples on our speaker team 118 00:07:26,370 --> 00:07:31,690 Speaker 2: defined selfishness is me wanting you to live your life 119 00:07:31,870 --> 00:07:37,270 Speaker 2: my way. Want me to repeat that one? Say it again. 120 00:07:37,290 --> 00:07:41,310 Speaker 2: Say it again. Me wanting you to live your life 121 00:07:41,610 --> 00:07:44,690 Speaker 2: my way. And that, I mean, I think that not 122 00:07:44,750 --> 00:07:51,230 Speaker 2: only parenting, but marriage, parenting, our relationships with coworkers and 123 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,830 Speaker 2: everybody all around us, our neighbors, it's just me wanting 124 00:07:54,870 --> 00:07:57,430 Speaker 2: you to live your life my way. So I, I 125 00:07:58,010 --> 00:08:02,550 Speaker 2: am a firstborn kind of bossy, you know, God, this 126 00:08:02,610 --> 00:08:04,350 Speaker 2: is the problem and this is how you're supposed to 127 00:08:04,390 --> 00:08:08,950 Speaker 2: fix it. And, you know, I have the timeline and 128 00:08:09,050 --> 00:08:12,070 Speaker 2: exactly the way, you know, and so bless, bless this plan. 129 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: I was privileged to be in a 12 step group 130 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,490 Speaker 2: for many, many years for codependency and, the 11th step 131 00:08:21,590 --> 00:08:24,870 Speaker 2: of the 12 steps is prayer for the knowledge of 132 00:08:24,930 --> 00:08:28,700 Speaker 2: God's will and the power to carry that out. And 133 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: that to me is a, a surrendered posture because I 134 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:39,550 Speaker 2: don't know what is best in any situation. I might 135 00:08:39,670 --> 00:08:42,829 Speaker 2: think in my limited vision in this very exact moment 136 00:08:43,309 --> 00:08:45,830 Speaker 2: that if so-and-so would just do this and that, then 137 00:08:45,870 --> 00:08:49,770 Speaker 2: we'd be fine. Um, You know, God is a 360 138 00:08:49,770 --> 00:08:52,930 Speaker 2: degree God. So he's not only looking at my life 139 00:08:52,990 --> 00:08:55,050 Speaker 2: and your life and the people that we care about, 140 00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:58,900 Speaker 2: but all of the relationships that circle every single one 141 00:08:58,940 --> 00:09:04,380 Speaker 2: of us. And in his infinite wisdom, his purposes are 142 00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: being established. His will is being accomplished. And we don't 143 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:15,620 Speaker 2: have capacity to hold the complexity as finite humans. And 144 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: so That's where I need to continually return to the 145 00:09:19,929 --> 00:09:25,380 Speaker 2: place of remembering that God is big and I am not. 146 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:29,420 Speaker 2: As simple as that. 147 00:09:31,860 --> 00:09:34,059 Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, that opening sentence kills me, of course, 148 00:09:34,179 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: because that is, I mean, that shows up obviously in 149 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: marriage is the easiest place to see it. Can't you 150 00:09:38,740 --> 00:09:41,300 Speaker 1: just be like me? It would be so much easier. 151 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,620 Speaker 1: My husband and I actually had a conversation about that 152 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: this morning. Just, just talking about how different we are. 153 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,210 Speaker 1: We come at everything completely differently. And sometimes that hums along. 154 00:09:54,350 --> 00:09:54,670 Speaker 2: Okay. 155 00:09:54,710 --> 00:09:56,830 Speaker 1: And we know how to roll with it. And then 156 00:09:56,870 --> 00:09:59,030 Speaker 1: sometimes it just, for some reason, it just, you hit 157 00:09:59,050 --> 00:10:02,710 Speaker 1: a hard patch and like, the differences just feel very pronounced. 158 00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:04,329 Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. 159 00:10:04,610 --> 00:10:06,620 Speaker 1: And, um, I wish it didn't happen, but it does. 160 00:10:07,270 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: And so, um, I want to get to the point 161 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: again where I'm laughing about it, but today I felt 162 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:13,380 Speaker 1: a little like, oh, can't you just be like me? 163 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 2: I'm relating to a hundred percent. I'm thinking about my 164 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,069 Speaker 2: conversation with my husband yesterday, how we were going about 165 00:10:22,150 --> 00:10:25,490 Speaker 2: deciding things. And I was just like, we were both just, 166 00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:29,690 Speaker 2: we could feel the tension growing because we, we, we 167 00:10:29,870 --> 00:10:34,010 Speaker 2: operate differently. We look at life differently. We are concerned 168 00:10:34,050 --> 00:10:39,820 Speaker 2: about different things. We bring our preferences and, um, man, 169 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: I just, I, I'm reminded, I don't know. And, um, 170 00:10:46,660 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 2: And so in my relationship with God, recognizing again that 171 00:10:52,340 --> 00:10:58,460 Speaker 2: I don't know ultimately what is best. I may think 172 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:03,670 Speaker 2: that I know, and I think God welcomes the honest 173 00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:07,890 Speaker 2: bringing of my requests of the pouring out of my heart. 174 00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:13,150 Speaker 2: But the demanding is then where we get messed up. 175 00:11:13,730 --> 00:11:17,339 Speaker 2: I remember when my seminary professor said, we need to determine, 176 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 2: we need to evaluate our circumstances in light of God. 177 00:11:23,220 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 2: Do not determine who God is based on your circumstances. 178 00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:31,300 Speaker 2: And I think that's so wise because many people get 179 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,550 Speaker 2: off track because they start to believe wrong things about 180 00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:40,470 Speaker 2: God because their circumstances in that moment don't match up 181 00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: to what they understand to be good. But God is good. 182 00:11:46,620 --> 00:11:49,660 Speaker 2: He is always good. He's never not good. And for 183 00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:52,059 Speaker 2: me to determine that he's not good because he's not 184 00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 2: following my script. 185 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: Right, right. 186 00:11:55,020 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: Puts me into a very dangerous place. 187 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:01,099 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a rough one. Now that takes a 188 00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: while for that to sink in and for that to 189 00:12:03,340 --> 00:12:06,579 Speaker 1: become sort of the default mode that God is good. 190 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:08,740 Speaker 1: But how can I see that right now in the midst? 191 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,540 Speaker 1: And that's actually a perfect segue because I was hoping 192 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: maybe you would share with us just a little bit 193 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,260 Speaker 1: of your own cancer journey. You're not just talking in 194 00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:20,540 Speaker 1: the air here. I mean, you have real world experience 195 00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:25,230 Speaker 1: of something very devastating and you've journeyed with God in that. 196 00:12:25,270 --> 00:12:26,449 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering if you could share a bit of 197 00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:27,010 Speaker 1: that with us. 198 00:12:27,530 --> 00:12:32,609 Speaker 2: Sure. It's been many years now, so I'm grateful to 199 00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:36,870 Speaker 2: be remission, but I was in a season where life 200 00:12:36,910 --> 00:12:41,030 Speaker 2: was going a hundred miles per hour. Things were looking 201 00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: up in many ways. And at that time, three kids 202 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,540 Speaker 2: in three schools. And I was driving my minivan all 203 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,750 Speaker 2: around our little city. Yeah. I just heard a lump 204 00:12:52,809 --> 00:12:55,270 Speaker 2: in my breast and I took it to my concern 205 00:12:55,309 --> 00:12:57,250 Speaker 2: to my doctor and she checked it out. She goes, 206 00:12:57,290 --> 00:12:59,370 Speaker 2: I'm not too worried about it, but just in case 207 00:12:59,410 --> 00:13:01,130 Speaker 2: I'll give you a diagnostic mammogram. 208 00:13:01,970 --> 00:13:03,610 Speaker 1: And I. 209 00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:08,469 Speaker 2: Went in for that appointment the Friday before school got 210 00:13:08,530 --> 00:13:11,349 Speaker 2: out for the kids thinking it was just going to be, 211 00:13:11,470 --> 00:13:15,970 Speaker 2: you know, mammogram and let's go. that mammogram turned into 212 00:13:16,010 --> 00:13:20,460 Speaker 2: an ultrasound, which turned into a core biopsy. And you 213 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:22,380 Speaker 2: know that it doesn't rain in our city very much, 214 00:13:22,420 --> 00:13:26,780 Speaker 2: but that weekend it rained sideways. It was raining so 215 00:13:26,820 --> 00:13:28,780 Speaker 2: hard and it just matched my mood. And it was 216 00:13:29,260 --> 00:13:34,370 Speaker 2: three days before Christmas. And I got the call that 217 00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:38,890 Speaker 2: I had invasive lobular carcinoma, which were three words I 218 00:13:38,910 --> 00:13:42,939 Speaker 2: had never heard before. And of course, my husband and 219 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: I had been in conflict because I have pictures of 220 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: Christmas magic. And then you have, you know, reality and 221 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: that gap between, you know, the hope and it's called disappointment. So, 222 00:13:55,460 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: I mean, we were, I'm sure having conflict over something 223 00:13:59,020 --> 00:14:04,030 Speaker 2: very unimportant, but it was just this churning inside me 224 00:14:04,210 --> 00:14:06,830 Speaker 2: in my soul that matched the weather that just this, 225 00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:12,589 Speaker 2: this not knowing the prognosis. you know, the biopsy result. 226 00:14:12,650 --> 00:14:15,940 Speaker 2: And so that set us on a whole different course. 227 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:21,660 Speaker 2: And my husband really demonstrated an unconditional love because we 228 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:24,700 Speaker 2: had been in a season of drift in our marriage. 229 00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:30,790 Speaker 2: And in the moment when the call came, I had 230 00:14:30,810 --> 00:14:35,350 Speaker 2: taken it in the garage in our house. He came 231 00:14:35,410 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: out into the garage and, you know, we had been 232 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 2: in conflict and he looked at me and I was 233 00:14:40,060 --> 00:14:42,230 Speaker 2: pale and got out of the car and just burst 234 00:14:42,290 --> 00:14:45,250 Speaker 2: out into tears and said, it's cancer. The doctor says 235 00:14:45,330 --> 00:14:48,530 Speaker 2: it's cancer. So he just stopped and he prayed for me, 236 00:14:49,190 --> 00:14:52,450 Speaker 2: prayed for us. Very simple, like, God, we don't know 237 00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:56,190 Speaker 2: what's going on. Would you show us that you're here 238 00:14:56,250 --> 00:14:59,980 Speaker 2: and help us? We want to trust you. And like 239 00:15:00,060 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: most garage doors around in our neighborhood, we have little 240 00:15:02,540 --> 00:15:07,630 Speaker 2: windows over our garage door. And literally that moment, When 241 00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: he finished the prayer, we opened our eyes and a 242 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:17,780 Speaker 2: sunbeam had broken through the rain clouds and landed right 243 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: where we stood in that garage. And it was like 244 00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: the Lord was saying, I am here. I see you. 245 00:15:23,220 --> 00:15:26,540 Speaker 2: I'm with you. I will be with you. And so 246 00:15:26,580 --> 00:15:32,330 Speaker 2: that started some journey, several surgeries, chemotherapy, losing my hair, 247 00:15:32,430 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 2: radiation treatment. And it was soul altering. it was a 248 00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: soul altering experience. My, uh, practice of meeting regular, regularly 249 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,619 Speaker 2: with the Lord prior to that time, set up a 250 00:15:48,660 --> 00:15:55,070 Speaker 2: foundation again of being able to come to God, um, 251 00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:57,770 Speaker 2: in the good and the hard and in the joys 252 00:15:57,830 --> 00:16:00,110 Speaker 2: and the sorrows. But I was, I, in my mind, 253 00:16:00,170 --> 00:16:03,830 Speaker 2: it's like plan a Lord, I would like to be 254 00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:08,620 Speaker 2: at every, um, every milestone for my kids. I would 255 00:16:08,650 --> 00:16:11,060 Speaker 2: like to one day be a grandma. I mean, those 256 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: are my prayers. And, and I also need to continually surrender, 257 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,230 Speaker 2: not my will, but yours be done. So that's a 258 00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:23,330 Speaker 2: little bit of my cancer story. 259 00:16:24,390 --> 00:16:27,310 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Thank you for sharing that. I know 260 00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:31,580 Speaker 1: that it's, it can still be, you know, there, that's 261 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,940 Speaker 1: not something you get over, even though it's many, many 262 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:40,230 Speaker 1: years ago. But in some ways, it seems like, for 263 00:16:40,270 --> 00:16:43,820 Speaker 1: some of us anyway, if there's a really deep valley 264 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: that you go into like that, maybe sometimes it is 265 00:16:46,260 --> 00:16:48,660 Speaker 1: easier to feel God's presence because you're kind of desperate 266 00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:53,420 Speaker 1: in a way. It's like you're clinging on for dear life. 267 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: I've noticed that in my own journey when things got 268 00:16:55,870 --> 00:16:59,850 Speaker 1: really super rough. In some ways, it's like, okay, Lord, 269 00:16:59,890 --> 00:17:01,510 Speaker 1: here we are. What are we going to do? Yeah, yeah. 270 00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:08,420 Speaker 1: And sometimes when more day-to-day stuff comes on, I think 271 00:17:08,460 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: that's when I forget to reach out for grace in 272 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,270 Speaker 1: the same desperate mode. 273 00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:18,570 Speaker 2: Right. I completely agree. In fact, in this season right now, 274 00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:25,230 Speaker 2: I am seeking to be much more present in the ordinary. 275 00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:29,409 Speaker 2: There's a wonderful book by Julie Canlis called The Theology 276 00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: of the Ordinary. And really setting up that there's like, 277 00:17:33,820 --> 00:17:38,220 Speaker 2: it's all spiritual. there's no secular spiritual. It's all spiritual. 278 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,899 Speaker 2: Our day-to-day life is an act of worship. Um, whether 279 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: it's peeling carrots and, you know, doing the laundry, um, 280 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: having a conversation, all of it is an act of worship. 281 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:56,350 Speaker 2: And for me, that shift has been helpful to learn, like, 282 00:17:56,380 --> 00:17:58,050 Speaker 2: what does it look like to be present? What does 283 00:17:58,090 --> 00:18:05,470 Speaker 2: it look like to, um, notice, acknowledge, and, um, Try 284 00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:07,390 Speaker 2: to stay listening. Yeah. 285 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,060 Speaker 1: Yeah. Tish Harrison Warren has also written a book called 286 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:16,860 Speaker 1: Liturgy of the Ordinary. Yes. Yes. Isn't that so good? 287 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: It makes so much sense, right? I'm brushing my teeth. 288 00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:22,659 Speaker 1: I'm making my bed. Yeah. And it's just like Brother Lawrence, 289 00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: I suppose, washing dishes while praying. So it makes so 290 00:18:25,859 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: much sense because pretty much our whole lives are just ordinary. Yeah. 291 00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:29,540 Speaker 2: Yeah. 292 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,660 Speaker 1: I mean, if you wait for the big whatever, like 293 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: when is that? This is my day-to-day life I'm in. 294 00:18:33,940 --> 00:18:38,810 Speaker 2: Right. And it's so purposeful because I think sometimes in 295 00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:46,790 Speaker 2: North America, especially, we begin to equate bigger as more 296 00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:51,570 Speaker 2: spiritual or like a bigger platform or more people in 297 00:18:51,630 --> 00:18:56,170 Speaker 2: our churches or whatever, those kinds of metrics to determine 298 00:18:56,210 --> 00:19:04,340 Speaker 2: spirituality rather than understanding that the day-to-day is noticed and 299 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:13,109 Speaker 2: important and purposeful. Nothing is haphazard. So how we go 300 00:19:13,130 --> 00:19:14,970 Speaker 2: about our days matters. 301 00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:19,730 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too. So good. We'll continue after 302 00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:23,419 Speaker 1: the break. Well, on that note, I'd like to pivot 303 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,780 Speaker 1: to Esther, actually, because you give her a lot of 304 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,859 Speaker 1: space in there. So I'm wondering... What drew you to 305 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,219 Speaker 1: her and how is she a model for us of 306 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: this open hands, willing heart? 307 00:19:35,780 --> 00:19:40,260 Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I've read Esther many, many times. 308 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,510 Speaker 2: You know, it's a fan favorite because there are probably, 309 00:19:44,530 --> 00:19:47,869 Speaker 2: I think it's the, I think the last I read somewhere, 310 00:19:47,890 --> 00:19:50,369 Speaker 2: so I'm not entirely sure my source, but it was 311 00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:53,750 Speaker 2: kind of, it's like there's one woman for every 10 312 00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:57,689 Speaker 2: men mentioned in the Bible. And so that Esther would 313 00:19:57,730 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: have a whole book like Ruth was significant to me 314 00:20:01,150 --> 00:20:04,030 Speaker 2: as a woman. As I read about women, I kind of, 315 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 2: I'm perking up, I'm paying attention more. The interesting thing 316 00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:14,550 Speaker 2: about Esther, there are so many parts of her story 317 00:20:14,590 --> 00:20:17,950 Speaker 2: we're not privy to. We don't understand how her parents 318 00:20:18,030 --> 00:20:25,330 Speaker 2: passed away. We don't understand her faith journey. There are 319 00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:27,830 Speaker 2: a lot of things. So I was kind of imagining 320 00:20:27,850 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: Esther having a Jewish background and recognizing and honoring the 321 00:20:36,580 --> 00:20:40,910 Speaker 2: Sabbath and the food and Passover and things that were 322 00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:46,659 Speaker 2: important in another country, but still holding onto these, these 323 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 2: familiar traditions and then being swept away into this harem, 324 00:20:54,600 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: which in, in a lot of ways, she was, she 325 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,580 Speaker 2: was just going along with whatever was being told. So 326 00:21:06,140 --> 00:21:10,060 Speaker 2: in contrast to Daniel and, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, where 327 00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: they made certain that they were not eating food that 328 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:20,300 Speaker 2: was kosher. They were making a specific stand about their god. 329 00:21:20,859 --> 00:21:25,420 Speaker 2: Esther's pretty silent about it until Mordecai comes to her 330 00:21:25,540 --> 00:21:30,689 Speaker 2: and says, this is the moment and we are in 331 00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:34,230 Speaker 2: a time of desperation. So to me, there's a shift 332 00:21:34,350 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: in Esther's countenance, her leadership, when she came to a 333 00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:47,869 Speaker 2: place where she surrendered. And it was a surrender that's 334 00:21:49,090 --> 00:21:53,149 Speaker 2: a laying down of our life kind of surrender. So 335 00:21:53,350 --> 00:22:01,889 Speaker 2: there's something so powerful about to that degree. Because I 336 00:22:01,910 --> 00:22:05,660 Speaker 2: don't think that we even understand how significant it was 337 00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: to not be to go to the king without being 338 00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:14,070 Speaker 2: summoned like that, you know, just the politics around that. 339 00:22:14,150 --> 00:22:17,850 Speaker 2: So it really was a big jump to kind of like, 340 00:22:18,010 --> 00:22:21,730 Speaker 2: I'm willing to die. I'm willing to die. She is fasting. 341 00:22:21,770 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: She's calling all the people to fast, but she's ready 342 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,380 Speaker 2: to lay down her life. And God gives her, I think, 343 00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:34,649 Speaker 2: insight and wisdom to invite people. Haman and the king 344 00:22:34,770 --> 00:22:37,230 Speaker 2: to a meal and then to another one. I mean, 345 00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:42,550 Speaker 2: it's just, it's masterful, but that surrender took place because 346 00:22:42,650 --> 00:22:46,090 Speaker 2: before that Esther was just kind of going along with 347 00:22:46,130 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 2: the flow of culture. And she wasn't, she didn't sign 348 00:22:52,220 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 2: up for the beauty pageant. I mean, I think that 349 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,580 Speaker 2: sometimes we read it as she was so pretty and, 350 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,060 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, this was in modern days, this 351 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:04,500 Speaker 2: would be considered, trafficking of some sort, you know, like 352 00:23:04,540 --> 00:23:07,620 Speaker 2: this was not a volunteer, like, Hey, if you feel like, 353 00:23:07,660 --> 00:23:11,620 Speaker 2: like you were, they were taken. So, um, it's, it's 354 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,100 Speaker 2: not all pretty. Um, like life, life is not all pretty. Um, 355 00:23:17,260 --> 00:23:21,140 Speaker 2: but I, I admire how Esther came to that place. 356 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,670 Speaker 2: I picture her the night before going, you know, just 357 00:23:26,090 --> 00:23:30,390 Speaker 2: looking and praying and, uh, leaning into what she knew 358 00:23:30,410 --> 00:23:36,180 Speaker 2: to be true of Yahweh. and it changed everything. Her 359 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,100 Speaker 2: decision to live surrendered changed everything. 360 00:23:41,140 --> 00:23:46,020 Speaker 1: Maybe unpack that just a little bit more for us. Think, again, 361 00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:48,090 Speaker 1: just for the people that are listening, what would it 362 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,620 Speaker 1: look like in our lives if we were to take 363 00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:54,070 Speaker 1: a few cues from Esther? What might we do to 364 00:23:56,350 --> 00:23:57,770 Speaker 1: use her kind of as a mentor in a way? 365 00:23:58,130 --> 00:24:02,129 Speaker 2: Right. You know, I've noticed this about believers that I 366 00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:07,390 Speaker 2: have conversations with, whether it's on an airplane ride or 367 00:24:07,910 --> 00:24:12,389 Speaker 2: meeting some random person or at a conference. There's a 368 00:24:12,590 --> 00:24:17,210 Speaker 2: quality about believers who have made a decision to live 369 00:24:17,290 --> 00:24:22,409 Speaker 2: surrendered to the Lordship of Christ. It's not a personality thing. 370 00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:25,950 Speaker 2: It's not an age thing. There's just a countenance that 371 00:24:26,010 --> 00:24:29,830 Speaker 2: is different when you meet a believer who has made 372 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,460 Speaker 2: a surrender kind of decision. So it's not just like, 373 00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: I kind of pictured in all food, everything's food. So 374 00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:42,020 Speaker 2: if you have a pie, you know, and you have 375 00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: all these different slices in your pie. And so you 376 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:48,619 Speaker 2: have your, your family slice and your work slice and 377 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,290 Speaker 2: your money slice and your future slice and all these 378 00:24:51,310 --> 00:24:53,850 Speaker 2: different slices. And God is a slice of the pie 379 00:24:53,890 --> 00:24:57,929 Speaker 2: of your life. That's not a surrendered. That's not the 380 00:24:57,970 --> 00:25:00,670 Speaker 2: surrender that I'm talking about. It's not just a weekend. 381 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 2: and midweek Bible study kind of, so it's like, I 382 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 2: think a surrendered life is Jesus is the center of 383 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,010 Speaker 2: the pie. Every slice of the pie, every slice pie, 384 00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:17,030 Speaker 2: he's first, he's the crest of the pie. Like there's, 385 00:25:17,170 --> 00:25:21,970 Speaker 2: there's something about the shift of allegiance. So, so God 386 00:25:22,030 --> 00:25:25,260 Speaker 2: is not a tag along, like, as you fit into 387 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:29,340 Speaker 2: my life, here we go. It's no, you are first. 388 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,740 Speaker 2: I will follow you. You are the shepherd. I am 389 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: the sheep. I will listen to your voice and I 390 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 2: will go where you tell me to go. And if 391 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:41,020 Speaker 2: you tell me to stay, I will stay. My life 392 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: is yours. And in that, there's a tremendous amount of 393 00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: freedom that comes through surrender. So that decision in modern day, 394 00:25:55,619 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: that is what I'm faced with. Like, I feel like 395 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 2: in my spiritual journey, I can mark times when it 396 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: was like the very first time I said, OK, I'll 397 00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:09,109 Speaker 2: go wherever you want me to go. And for me 398 00:26:09,650 --> 00:26:12,390 Speaker 2: in college, it was like I was ready to go 399 00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:14,629 Speaker 2: to Thailand or anywhere God would send me. And the 400 00:26:14,690 --> 00:26:17,730 Speaker 2: hardest thing that I could muster up to think that 401 00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:20,590 Speaker 2: was challenging would be to have to be a single 402 00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:24,420 Speaker 2: librarian forever. driving a really ugly station wagon. Like that 403 00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:26,899 Speaker 2: to me was like, but even that I would be 404 00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:28,699 Speaker 2: willing to do God if that's what you called me 405 00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 2: to do. Like there was that kind of a surrendered thing. 406 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,310 Speaker 1: So no offense to librarians. 407 00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:36,330 Speaker 2: No, I love librarians and I love books. I love libraries. 408 00:26:36,410 --> 00:26:39,030 Speaker 2: I love, love, love. So, but in my little 20 409 00:26:39,030 --> 00:26:43,330 Speaker 2: year old brain that was like, oh, I'm really surrendering 410 00:26:43,410 --> 00:26:46,770 Speaker 2: if I'm willing to do that. Now it sounds awesome. 411 00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:49,609 Speaker 2: But all that to say is that in each of 412 00:26:49,690 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: our lives, I think we have places of surrender. And 413 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,740 Speaker 2: then when God calls us to re-up, I think over 414 00:26:56,780 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 2: and over, he brings us to crossroads where it's like, 415 00:26:59,619 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: will you trust me? Will you surrender? Are you going 416 00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: to go your way? Are you going to go my way? 417 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: And what does that look like? So it's an evergreen 418 00:27:10,540 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: topic with huge ramifications. Sure. 419 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: So you're talking about a shift of paradigm. 420 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,220 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. Kind of the secret sauce to the 421 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,030 Speaker 2: Christian life, really, because I believe that in the surrender 422 00:27:26,570 --> 00:27:30,510 Speaker 2: is when the spirit is unleashed to empower us. And 423 00:27:30,550 --> 00:27:33,950 Speaker 2: we are then kind of walking in tandem with the spirit, 424 00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 2: watching him kind of open the doors. And we are 425 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:43,220 Speaker 2: kind of on an adventure that way because we're living 426 00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: purposefully in that space. God is here. He's not a weekend, 427 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: one-hour church service. That's not where God is. He's here 428 00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: among us. It's incredible. 429 00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:05,490 Speaker 1: Yes, I agree. I've been thinking a lot lately about 430 00:28:05,530 --> 00:28:08,149 Speaker 1: God's love, which is, I mean, it's just kind of 431 00:28:08,190 --> 00:28:12,810 Speaker 1: saying the same thing because God says God is love. 432 00:28:13,930 --> 00:28:16,030 Speaker 1: So to talk about God is to talk about love. 433 00:28:16,690 --> 00:28:18,790 Speaker 1: But I've just been thinking about that, that God's love 434 00:28:18,990 --> 00:28:22,100 Speaker 1: is available all the time. And I know that that 435 00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: sounds absolutely elementary. But I just think over the course 436 00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:28,860 Speaker 1: of my life, that is going to just become more 437 00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:33,190 Speaker 1: and more of a deepening reality that I receive and 438 00:28:33,869 --> 00:28:37,310 Speaker 1: live into just in different ways, right? Because it's so massive, 439 00:28:38,210 --> 00:28:41,330 Speaker 1: you can't comprehend it all at once. Mm-hmm. And so 440 00:28:41,370 --> 00:28:43,290 Speaker 1: I think like you're talking about, there's probably lots of 441 00:28:43,370 --> 00:28:45,990 Speaker 1: mini surrenders all along the way. And maybe there's some 442 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,340 Speaker 1: big ones where I have big turning points. But even 443 00:28:49,380 --> 00:28:53,140 Speaker 1: the language that I hear people use often is something 444 00:28:53,180 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: like trying to figure out how to fit God or 445 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: fit spiritual practices or fit, you know, whatever into my life. 446 00:28:59,140 --> 00:29:00,460 Speaker 1: How do I fit all that in my busy life? 447 00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: And I just always think, man, that you're asking the 448 00:29:02,940 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: question backwards. 449 00:29:04,020 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 450 00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:09,630 Speaker 1: Or upside down or something. I don't think we're trying 451 00:29:09,650 --> 00:29:12,130 Speaker 1: to fit something in. It's like we're trying to orient 452 00:29:12,270 --> 00:29:18,500 Speaker 1: ourselves here in the center with him. Yeah. And that's 453 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:19,510 Speaker 1: a different way of coming at it. 454 00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. To me, it's amazing. It's that, I mean, I 455 00:29:22,380 --> 00:29:25,660 Speaker 2: think we've all seen the illustration where you have the 456 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,790 Speaker 2: container with the big rocks and then you have the 457 00:29:30,730 --> 00:29:33,190 Speaker 2: smaller stones and then you have the gravel and then 458 00:29:33,210 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: you have the sand. And if you put the sand 459 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: in first, you can never fit everything. But if you 460 00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:41,020 Speaker 2: get the big rocks in at the foundation. everything fits 461 00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:45,020 Speaker 2: it's it's amazing god is able to stretch time and 462 00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: we look back and go how did that even happen 463 00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:50,719 Speaker 2: it was like hey i got you he's like i 464 00:29:50,740 --> 00:29:53,660 Speaker 2: got you so yeah i agree. 465 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:56,690 Speaker 1: That's an amazing Image, if you go on YouTube, you 466 00:29:56,730 --> 00:29:59,950 Speaker 1: can look up Stephen Covey. That's one of his seven 467 00:30:00,010 --> 00:30:04,510 Speaker 1: habits of highly effective people. There's a video. He has 468 00:30:04,550 --> 00:30:06,190 Speaker 1: a video where he has a woman trying to put 469 00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:09,020 Speaker 1: the rocks in, but he has put a bunch of 470 00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: little green pebbles in first, and she can't get them 471 00:30:11,660 --> 00:30:13,500 Speaker 1: all in. And so then he gives her a whole 472 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,420 Speaker 1: new container, and he lets her put the big rocks 473 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,540 Speaker 1: in first. And then literally, so you can watch it 474 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: if you... go to YouTube and look up Stephen Covey, 475 00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:25,950 Speaker 1: big rocks. You can find the video. I'm saying this 476 00:30:25,970 --> 00:30:28,890 Speaker 1: to people. It's really entertaining to watch because it's really true. 477 00:30:28,930 --> 00:30:30,730 Speaker 1: It really works. Not only did she fit all the 478 00:30:30,770 --> 00:30:33,230 Speaker 1: big rocks in, but then he poured all the green 479 00:30:33,270 --> 00:30:36,150 Speaker 1: little things in and they went in around and everything fit. 480 00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:36,820 Speaker 2: Yeah. 481 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,620 Speaker 1: It's just a beautiful life lesson. It's okay to know 482 00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:43,660 Speaker 1: what's important to you, to plan for it, to calendar it, 483 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,340 Speaker 1: to call it a priority. And of course, in a, 484 00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:49,700 Speaker 1: in a Christian's life, as we're talking about here, um, 485 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,620 Speaker 1: This would be whatever it has to do with your 486 00:30:53,660 --> 00:30:56,150 Speaker 1: life with God would be the biggest rock. That's got 487 00:30:56,170 --> 00:30:57,230 Speaker 1: to get in there somehow. 488 00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:57,810 Speaker 2: Yeah. 489 00:30:58,110 --> 00:31:00,450 Speaker 1: So I love that image. 490 00:31:01,110 --> 00:31:02,250 Speaker 2: I want to talk here. 491 00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:07,220 Speaker 1: You've got inside here, you've talked about barriers and you 492 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: list four of them, but I'm going to start on 493 00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: the one that won't be a surprise to you. 494 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,380 Speaker 2: Busyness. Oh, right. Right. 495 00:31:18,110 --> 00:31:23,230 Speaker 1: Busyness, you know, we're scurrying, we're striving, you know, but 496 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: I think you probably have some suggestions for some healthier alternatives. 497 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,980 Speaker 1: Why don't you talk to us about what busyness is about? 498 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, busyness is, well, we all have our drug of 499 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,340 Speaker 2: choice when dealing with pain. And sometimes we check out 500 00:31:41,580 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: and we just doom scroll on social media. I'll just 501 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: say all the things I do, like I'll just check 502 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,350 Speaker 2: out and doom scroll or I'll eat or I'll shop 503 00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:51,430 Speaker 2: or I'll, I mean, there's just different ways that we 504 00:31:51,470 --> 00:32:00,540 Speaker 2: try to avoid the more important things or really sitting 505 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,620 Speaker 2: in pain. We as a society are not accustomed to pain. 506 00:32:05,660 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: We want to, I think our brothers and sisters around 507 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 2: the world have a very different view on pain. I 508 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: just think in North America, we have rows and rows 509 00:32:19,140 --> 00:32:23,690 Speaker 2: and rows of painkillers at the pharmacy, you know, like 510 00:32:23,770 --> 00:32:27,630 Speaker 2: just to differing degrees and for every ailment. So we 511 00:32:27,670 --> 00:32:31,750 Speaker 2: don't like pain. And in that, I think some addictions 512 00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:36,070 Speaker 2: come out of that as well, where we escape. We 513 00:32:36,110 --> 00:32:40,900 Speaker 2: are trying to escape. Um, and busyness, I think kind 514 00:32:40,940 --> 00:32:42,940 Speaker 2: of fits in that too. Like we can start to 515 00:32:42,980 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: get busy in order to not deal with the hard things. 516 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,820 Speaker 2: And I, um, can lean toward workaholism, uh, because, and 517 00:32:52,870 --> 00:32:57,290 Speaker 2: it sadly that's praised. Like if I were drinking four 518 00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:59,830 Speaker 2: bottles of wine a day or eight bottles of wine 519 00:32:59,870 --> 00:33:02,850 Speaker 2: a day, it would be concerning and people would, you know, 520 00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:06,570 Speaker 2: send me to Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, but working, um, 521 00:33:08,770 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: to an unhealthy degree is considered like, wow, you are 522 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 2: just really like killing it. You know, it sadly is 523 00:33:18,860 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 2: in our society and even in the church seen as 524 00:33:24,820 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: some kind of a virtue, you know? So the more 525 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,770 Speaker 2: you're serving, the more you're filling your day, every hour 526 00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:33,250 Speaker 2: is packed in. So, so we have, we have a 527 00:33:33,670 --> 00:33:37,190 Speaker 2: problem with busyness. We have a problem that we, that our, 528 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,860 Speaker 2: that people before us did not because there was no electricity. 529 00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:43,010 Speaker 2: And so once the sun went down, there were no 530 00:33:43,050 --> 00:33:45,750 Speaker 2: other options. You just go to bed. Like, you know, there, 531 00:33:45,910 --> 00:33:51,050 Speaker 2: there were limitations that were just built into living that 532 00:33:51,290 --> 00:33:54,930 Speaker 2: now we have access and the internet. And, and I 533 00:33:54,990 --> 00:33:58,990 Speaker 2: think even our sense of time has shifted too. So 534 00:33:59,010 --> 00:34:02,670 Speaker 2: if a website doesn't download and, you know, half a second, 535 00:34:03,150 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: we're like refreshing it. We're annoyed. We're like, oh, buffering? 536 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: Like what's wrong? Like we have a real, we don't, 537 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,739 Speaker 2: we don't sit very well. We don't rest very well. 538 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:21,130 Speaker 2: We don't stop very well. And we don't assess very well. Uh, 539 00:34:21,930 --> 00:34:25,150 Speaker 2: or I can just replay. I do not. It begins 540 00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:27,529 Speaker 2: with me, Jim. It begins with me. One of the 541 00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:30,910 Speaker 2: things that I have found to be really helpful is, um, 542 00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:37,310 Speaker 2: practicing the Sabbath. And I think there's been, uh, a 543 00:34:38,469 --> 00:34:41,670 Speaker 2: new trend. And this younger generation is really looking to 544 00:34:41,730 --> 00:34:49,210 Speaker 2: liturgy and worshiping God in very tactile ways, kind of 545 00:34:50,630 --> 00:34:56,430 Speaker 2: returning to a beautiful reverence of God that comes through 546 00:34:56,469 --> 00:34:59,950 Speaker 2: some of these ancient practices. So it's nothing new. But 547 00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:03,299 Speaker 2: I mean, all the way back to Genesis 1 and 548 00:35:03,340 --> 00:35:08,779 Speaker 2: Genesis 2, God was modeling a life that wasn't going 549 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,500 Speaker 2: to be busy. Like it was, you know, we were, 550 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:17,890 Speaker 2: we were tasked with work. So work, work is not bad. 551 00:35:17,950 --> 00:35:21,230 Speaker 2: It wasn't like just flop around on the beach and 552 00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:23,270 Speaker 2: then flop again on the beach. Like, no, there was 553 00:35:23,450 --> 00:35:26,190 Speaker 2: really good work to be done, but there was a 554 00:35:26,450 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 2: beautiful recognition of our limitations. And in that, I think 555 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 2: Sabbath honoring the Sabbath, I, for the most part, try 556 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,919 Speaker 2: to put my phone away, take my Apple watch off. 557 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 2: So no social media, no screens. Actually, I do sometimes 558 00:35:49,140 --> 00:35:52,859 Speaker 2: watch stuff. So, but at least my phone, my device, 559 00:35:52,890 --> 00:35:54,390 Speaker 2: I don't even take my phone to church. So from 560 00:35:54,469 --> 00:35:59,650 Speaker 2: sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday, I'm not texting. The kids 561 00:35:59,710 --> 00:36:01,089 Speaker 2: know that they need to get ahold of me. They 562 00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:07,049 Speaker 2: have to text Darren. But for me, it's a, tangible 563 00:36:07,110 --> 00:36:11,090 Speaker 2: way to say we're shifting gears away from the busyness. 564 00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:13,530 Speaker 1: Yeah. So good. 565 00:36:13,550 --> 00:36:14,470 Speaker 2: Yeah. 566 00:36:14,510 --> 00:36:17,450 Speaker 1: I wonder if there's another one of the four that 567 00:36:17,590 --> 00:36:19,509 Speaker 1: you might want to touch on. What do you think 568 00:36:19,590 --> 00:36:23,049 Speaker 1: is relevant? We've got self-reliance, bitterness, and apathy. Those are 569 00:36:23,090 --> 00:36:27,700 Speaker 1: all amazing. Is there one that you think would be 570 00:36:27,739 --> 00:36:29,020 Speaker 1: good for us to hear about today? 571 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: You know, I do think what, I mean, all of them, 572 00:36:36,570 --> 00:36:45,009 Speaker 2: For sure. Interestingly, science has really shown that bitterness, it 573 00:36:45,070 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 2: affects our bodies, like our physical bodies. So even people 574 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,980 Speaker 2: that don't believe in God, when they're able to walk 575 00:36:55,100 --> 00:37:03,020 Speaker 2: in true forgiveness, their internal systems get reset in a way. 576 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: It's like God was right. You know what I mean? 577 00:37:06,739 --> 00:37:11,700 Speaker 2: It's just more evidence of the truth of what we 578 00:37:11,780 --> 00:37:17,819 Speaker 2: need in order to live well. So I do think 579 00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:22,710 Speaker 2: that bitterness is one of the things that eats away 580 00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:31,930 Speaker 2: at our ability to genuinely engage in relationships. I think 581 00:37:31,969 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 2: what burdens my heart in this space point in time 582 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 2: in our history is how divided we are. That bitterness 583 00:37:41,890 --> 00:37:46,230 Speaker 2: to me has taken over where we don't recognize the 584 00:37:46,270 --> 00:37:48,530 Speaker 2: image of God in other people if we don't agree, 585 00:37:48,850 --> 00:37:52,910 Speaker 2: like whether it's politically or theologically or I mean, we 586 00:37:52,969 --> 00:37:58,149 Speaker 2: just in the family of God have so much division 587 00:37:58,210 --> 00:38:02,650 Speaker 2: that we can't even see each other anymore. And the 588 00:38:02,710 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 2: way forward in an unhealthy way is just to cancel. 589 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,529 Speaker 2: So you have children, adult children that don't talk to 590 00:38:11,570 --> 00:38:16,430 Speaker 2: their parents anymore. I mean, that's the canceling. There's not 591 00:38:16,650 --> 00:38:21,230 Speaker 2: connection in the midst of differences, which we don't have 592 00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:25,270 Speaker 2: to agree a hundred percent on everything in life and 593 00:38:25,370 --> 00:38:28,750 Speaker 2: all things. Darren and I don't agree on everything politically 594 00:38:28,810 --> 00:38:31,150 Speaker 2: or theologically. I mean, we are different people and we're 595 00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:33,940 Speaker 2: all on a journey. We're learning and What does it 596 00:38:33,980 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 2: look like for us to not allow bitterness to take 597 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,060 Speaker 2: root in our hearts to the degree that we see 598 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,900 Speaker 2: people as the enemy? The Bible is very clear that 599 00:38:44,940 --> 00:38:47,420 Speaker 2: we do have a very real enemy who is out 600 00:38:47,460 --> 00:38:52,750 Speaker 2: to steal, to kill, to destroy, to divide, to create havoc. 601 00:38:54,610 --> 00:38:58,810 Speaker 2: But people are not the enemy. And I think bitterness really, 602 00:39:00,430 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 2: it just saps life. I just have to say, like, 603 00:39:04,820 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 2: if my husband and I are not getting along, we 604 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,779 Speaker 2: could have the best meal ever and it would still 605 00:39:09,820 --> 00:39:13,339 Speaker 2: taste bad. You know, and if we're getting along, I mean, 606 00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 2: even a hot dog could taste good. You know what 607 00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: I mean? It's just like, so there's just, there's just 608 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,330 Speaker 2: something built into us in terms of our quality of life, 609 00:39:21,430 --> 00:39:27,410 Speaker 2: even that comes through recognizing unforgiveness and the need to reconcile. 610 00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 2: and yeah those are some thoughts thank you yeah we 611 00:39:33,460 --> 00:39:36,500 Speaker 2: are we are definitely fearfully and wonderfully made and we're 612 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 2: learning more and more. 613 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,010 Speaker 1: About how this whole system here the body the heart 614 00:39:42,030 --> 00:39:47,049 Speaker 1: the soul the mind is really working together and can 615 00:39:47,090 --> 00:39:49,380 Speaker 1: affect one another I had a very close loved one 616 00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:53,430 Speaker 1: in my life who never really dealt with some bitterness 617 00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:56,529 Speaker 1: and resentment in her life. And I think it, it 618 00:39:56,730 --> 00:39:59,930 Speaker 1: ultimately led to an early death. I mean, there were 619 00:40:00,690 --> 00:40:03,810 Speaker 1: obviously physical things that were wrong, but I don't think 620 00:40:03,850 --> 00:40:08,050 Speaker 1: it helped that she was carrying the burden of that 621 00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:14,710 Speaker 1: much in her heart. So I think it makes a difference. 622 00:40:14,810 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: It's something to notice in it. I think a good 623 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: encouragement is if you're having a hard time here, it 624 00:40:20,820 --> 00:40:24,620 Speaker 1: might be good to seek out some help. Sometimes it 625 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,540 Speaker 1: can be really hard to overcome bitterness and resentment just 626 00:40:27,660 --> 00:40:28,379 Speaker 1: all on your own. 627 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, we absolutely need not only community, but sometimes 628 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,900 Speaker 2: a trained therapist. And, you know, Darren and I have 629 00:40:35,940 --> 00:40:39,649 Speaker 2: gone to counseling individually and marriage counseling. We just call 630 00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:43,310 Speaker 2: them our paid friends. Right, for sure. 631 00:40:43,890 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had it all too. therapy is highly recommended 632 00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: if you can find yourself a really good one. Or 633 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: even depending on what's going on, even sometimes, you know, 634 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,589 Speaker 1: a spiritual director, of course, I'm a spiritual director, just 635 00:40:57,030 --> 00:41:01,390 Speaker 1: a safe listening space. But for sure, I wouldn't recommend 636 00:41:01,469 --> 00:41:03,810 Speaker 1: trying to overcome any of these things on your own. 637 00:41:03,830 --> 00:41:05,550 Speaker 1: We're not meant to do any of this alone. 638 00:41:06,050 --> 00:41:07,049 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 639 00:41:07,210 --> 00:41:13,250 Speaker 1: So, well, what about, what about when God just says, no, 640 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,380 Speaker 1: Or the circumstances just end up and it's just a no. 641 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: We're praying for something and we want something to come 642 00:41:23,739 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: turn out a certain way and it just doesn't. 643 00:41:25,660 --> 00:41:26,810 Speaker 2: Yeah. 644 00:41:27,030 --> 00:41:29,290 Speaker 1: What do you have for us there? 645 00:41:29,310 --> 00:41:33,629 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I have a more recent no since 646 00:41:33,690 --> 00:41:38,419 Speaker 2: the book came out. My middle son got married four 647 00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:43,939 Speaker 2: years ago and this was during the COVID plague. Darren 648 00:41:43,980 --> 00:41:46,060 Speaker 2: and I had avoided it for two and a half years. 649 00:41:46,180 --> 00:41:49,800 Speaker 2: And the week of his wedding, we both got COVID 650 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,750 Speaker 2: and we missed our son's wedding. My daughter ended up 651 00:41:54,790 --> 00:41:57,750 Speaker 2: dancing with Michael for what would have been the mother-son dance. 652 00:41:58,050 --> 00:42:03,750 Speaker 2: We had to zoom in our toasts to, you know, 653 00:42:04,860 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 2: our son and his wife. And it was just like, 654 00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:16,710 Speaker 2: just the, Like, come on. I mean, like, you know, and, 655 00:42:16,850 --> 00:42:20,210 Speaker 2: you know, for all the reasons I could just, we're missionaries. 656 00:42:20,570 --> 00:42:23,549 Speaker 2: We were serving you. We, you know, like, couldn't it 657 00:42:23,590 --> 00:42:25,820 Speaker 2: have been two and a half weeks later? Like, this is, 658 00:42:26,050 --> 00:42:29,379 Speaker 2: this is, this is a milestone. Like, you know, all 659 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:34,820 Speaker 2: the things. And so receiving a no from God, I 660 00:42:36,860 --> 00:42:41,430 Speaker 2: think about this, the scripture, the story. I believe it's 661 00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:44,350 Speaker 2: in Mark six. It's in a couple of different places 662 00:42:44,410 --> 00:42:47,950 Speaker 2: in the, in the, in the gospels, but the story 663 00:42:48,260 --> 00:42:55,220 Speaker 2: of the man who's healed of many demons, you know, he, 664 00:42:56,739 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 2: so when the townspeople find out about it, you know, 665 00:43:01,380 --> 00:43:05,090 Speaker 2: there's a legion of demons in this man. And so 666 00:43:05,570 --> 00:43:08,550 Speaker 2: the demons recognize Jesus and they say, oh my gosh, 667 00:43:08,670 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 2: don't send us to the abyss. you know, please. And 668 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,779 Speaker 2: so they make a request to Jesus and say, you know, 669 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 2: don't send us there. And so Jesus says, yes, and 670 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 2: sends them into the pigs and they go flying over the, the, 671 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 2: the townspeople, they, um, see what's happening and they're freaking out. 672 00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:31,219 Speaker 2: So they tell Jesus to leave, you know, makes a 673 00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:33,609 Speaker 2: request to Jesus and he says, yes. So they're getting 674 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,410 Speaker 2: ready to leave. And the man that was healed use 675 00:43:37,450 --> 00:43:41,450 Speaker 2: the same Greek word pleaded, um, to go with him, 676 00:43:42,070 --> 00:43:45,910 Speaker 2: you know, and Jesus says, no, he wanted him to stay. 677 00:43:45,989 --> 00:43:49,970 Speaker 2: So it's like, Jesus loved the man that he healed. 678 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,180 Speaker 2: I mean, it brought him great delight to restore him 679 00:43:54,200 --> 00:44:01,340 Speaker 2: to his full health. So a no doesn't mean an 680 00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 2: absence of love. And that I've had to hold on 681 00:44:07,620 --> 00:44:11,029 Speaker 2: to and understand kind of circling back to where we 682 00:44:11,050 --> 00:44:14,230 Speaker 2: kind of began to with just like God's character does 683 00:44:14,270 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 2: not change. And he is at work in ways we 684 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 2: don't understand. So of a fun story as the followup. So, um, 685 00:44:22,420 --> 00:44:24,739 Speaker 2: Michael and Angelica are in a season where they're at 686 00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:27,219 Speaker 2: weddings all the time because everyone in their life is 687 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,100 Speaker 2: getting married. So it's always a bachelor party, a bridal party, 688 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 2: you know, something. Uh, so they had another wedding to 689 00:44:32,620 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 2: go to after, um, after their honeymoon. So they asked 690 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 2: if they could stay with us because it was closer 691 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,630 Speaker 2: to San Diego. And we're like, yes, come stay with us. 692 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 2: So we brought all the wedding gifts back to our house. 693 00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:49,580 Speaker 2: And as soon as they came through the door, I 694 00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:52,980 Speaker 2: just was like hugging them, telling them how to go 695 00:44:53,020 --> 00:44:56,100 Speaker 2: welcome to the family and finally getting to hug them 696 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,860 Speaker 2: and tell them how proud we were of them and 697 00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 2: how much we love them. And Michael takes us into 698 00:45:00,340 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 2: the kitchen real quick. And he goes, you got to 699 00:45:02,300 --> 00:45:06,299 Speaker 2: hear this text mom that I got one of the 700 00:45:06,340 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 2: guys that had come to the wedding, one of his friends. 701 00:45:10,420 --> 00:45:12,379 Speaker 2: And he had, he said, you know, thank you. So 702 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 2: the texts that, you know, thank you so much for 703 00:45:14,340 --> 00:45:16,340 Speaker 2: inviting me. I haven't felt this happy in a long time. 704 00:45:16,420 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 2: Family has always been so difficult for me. I never 705 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,219 Speaker 2: knew that you could trust parents or be close to 706 00:45:24,260 --> 00:45:28,500 Speaker 2: your siblings, but I saw the unconditional love in your 707 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,650 Speaker 2: family And it gave me the courage to call my parents. 708 00:45:32,770 --> 00:45:34,989 Speaker 2: They had been estranged for like 20 years. And so 709 00:45:35,010 --> 00:45:40,009 Speaker 2: they're calling, they're all crying on the phone and he 710 00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:42,890 Speaker 2: was telling them, I love you. And they reconciled. And 711 00:45:42,930 --> 00:45:46,589 Speaker 2: it was just this beautiful moment that gave this young 712 00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:49,850 Speaker 2: man courage to call his older brother who had been 713 00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:54,969 Speaker 2: abusive toward him growing up. And the older brother owned it, said, 714 00:45:55,050 --> 00:45:57,740 Speaker 2: I should have been protecting you and said, I hurt you. 715 00:45:57,780 --> 00:46:02,710 Speaker 2: Will you forgive me? And so the friend said, you know, 716 00:46:02,730 --> 00:46:05,290 Speaker 2: I didn't think I could ever forgive until last night. 717 00:46:05,930 --> 00:46:09,730 Speaker 2: And so it was like, somehow, even in the midst 718 00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:13,700 Speaker 2: of our disappointment that God was at work in this 719 00:46:13,739 --> 00:46:17,500 Speaker 2: young man's life and he was seeing something that spurred 720 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 2: him to think about his own family. And I just think, gosh, God, 721 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,399 Speaker 2: that was so kind that you allowed us to even 722 00:46:27,460 --> 00:46:31,939 Speaker 2: hear that story. Because it's probably happening. We just haven't 723 00:46:31,980 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 2: heard it yet. Like in the midst of our sadness 724 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,940 Speaker 2: and our disappointment and our grief, there are other stories 725 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 2: that haven't yet to be shared. But I believe that 726 00:46:43,980 --> 00:46:49,450 Speaker 2: his beautiful purposes are being accomplished. So when God says no, 727 00:46:49,469 --> 00:46:54,130 Speaker 2: I need to hold on to the truth that he 728 00:46:54,469 --> 00:47:02,270 Speaker 2: still loves me. It's still good. that nothing escapes his 729 00:47:04,790 --> 00:47:12,760 Speaker 2: knowing and that he's with us. And yeah, that's like 730 00:47:12,820 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 2: a more recent story of hearing no. 731 00:47:17,380 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. 732 00:47:20,940 --> 00:47:25,020 Speaker 1: Tack on to that beautiful story, just a couple of 733 00:47:25,060 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 1: minutes about Hagar naming God. I think that just adds 734 00:47:30,820 --> 00:47:31,660 Speaker 1: on here beautifully. 735 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,260 Speaker 2: Yeah. So in Genesis 16, we're introduced to Hagar. She's 736 00:47:36,900 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 2: an Egyptian, a woman who's of Egyptian descent enslaved. Um, 737 00:47:43,380 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 2: and she, at the time, uh, because Sarah was not 738 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 2: able to get pregnant, um, they would have a surrogate. 739 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 2: And so Hagar became pregnant with Abraham and, um, conflict 740 00:47:59,420 --> 00:48:05,460 Speaker 2: arose and Hagar ran away. It was so bad that 741 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:11,700 Speaker 2: this sweet Egyptian young woman, pregnant, ran into the desert, 742 00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:15,219 Speaker 2: like hoping to maybe get home. I don't know. I mean, 743 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,660 Speaker 2: they were far away from home at that point, but 744 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:22,110 Speaker 2: it was that bad. And so God meets with Hagar 745 00:48:22,410 --> 00:48:27,190 Speaker 2: and it's one of the longest recorded one-on-one conversations ever. 746 00:48:27,810 --> 00:48:31,970 Speaker 2: that God would have with this young woman. And in 747 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:38,320 Speaker 2: all of the previous conversations that Abraham and Sarah have 748 00:48:38,380 --> 00:48:42,140 Speaker 2: about Hagar, they never use her name. They just said, 749 00:48:42,260 --> 00:48:44,319 Speaker 2: you're a slave, you're a servant or whatever. You just, 750 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:49,530 Speaker 2: you know, God calls Hagar by her name. Hagar, Hagar, 751 00:48:49,570 --> 00:48:51,250 Speaker 2: where are you? What are you doing? You know, they 752 00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:57,910 Speaker 2: have this conversation and Hagar ends up, being the first 753 00:48:57,969 --> 00:49:00,680 Speaker 2: to name God, to give God a name, El Roy, 754 00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 2: the God who sees me. And I love that. I 755 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,460 Speaker 2: believe it was probably Moses that wrote Genesis. I'm not 756 00:49:07,780 --> 00:49:11,799 Speaker 2: entirely sure, but that would be recorded. Again, you know, 757 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,830 Speaker 2: if it's true that there's one to 10 ratio of women, like, 758 00:49:15,070 --> 00:49:17,730 Speaker 2: you know, to men in the Bible, I'm paying attention, 759 00:49:17,770 --> 00:49:23,490 Speaker 2: you know, and here's Hagar. who culturally and societally would 760 00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:27,840 Speaker 2: have been considered the bottom of the barrel. God saw 761 00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 2: her and received this name that she says, you are 762 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:37,100 Speaker 2: El Roy, the God who sees me. And her name 763 00:49:37,180 --> 00:49:44,590 Speaker 2: is recorded. And she... is one who recognizes that God 764 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 2: sees even in the harshest places. So I love that 765 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:50,210 Speaker 2: story about her. 766 00:49:51,300 --> 00:49:54,299 Speaker 1: So good. I think that's a beautiful place to wrap 767 00:49:54,340 --> 00:49:59,810 Speaker 1: this up. Just remember that you are seen. I am seen. 768 00:49:59,830 --> 00:50:06,150 Speaker 1: And that matters so much in this, uh, kind of lonely, 769 00:50:06,310 --> 00:50:10,930 Speaker 1: anxious culture that we're in. And so thank you so 770 00:50:10,989 --> 00:50:13,310 Speaker 1: much for sharing that story. Thanks for sharing your life 771 00:50:13,370 --> 00:50:16,690 Speaker 1: with us today. I really appreciate all you've brought. Is 772 00:50:16,730 --> 00:50:19,049 Speaker 1: there a way that we can find you online if 773 00:50:19,090 --> 00:50:19,930 Speaker 1: we wanted to connect? 774 00:50:20,450 --> 00:50:26,890 Speaker 2: Sure. I'm on Instagram at Viv Mabuni, at Viv Mabuni. 775 00:50:27,550 --> 00:50:31,219 Speaker 2: And I have a website that I updated in a 776 00:50:31,260 --> 00:50:33,219 Speaker 2: long time, but if you want to check it out, 777 00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:39,569 Speaker 2: Vivian Mabuni.com. Um, but it does have like my speaking schedule, um, 778 00:50:39,810 --> 00:50:44,570 Speaker 2: and places where I love teaching at conferences and women's events. 779 00:50:44,710 --> 00:50:48,649 Speaker 2: And my husband and I speak at marriage conferences. And so, um, yeah, 780 00:50:48,690 --> 00:50:50,469 Speaker 2: you can find that information there. 781 00:50:51,530 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 1: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Yeah. Vivian is a trustworthy 782 00:50:55,260 --> 00:50:57,720 Speaker 1: woman that I'm getting to know and I'm glad our friendship, 783 00:50:57,780 --> 00:50:58,939 Speaker 1: it's going to continue to grow. 784 00:50:59,620 --> 00:51:01,380 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. 785 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: Thank you, Vivian. 786 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,620 Speaker 2: You're welcome. It's great to be with you. 787 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,420 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me on the Unhurried Living Podcast. 788 00:51:09,620 --> 00:51:12,299 Speaker 1: You can download free resources and learn more about us 789 00:51:12,450 --> 00:51:16,270 Speaker 1: at unhurriedliving.com. And please subscribe and share this podcast with 790 00:51:16,290 --> 00:51:19,530 Speaker 1: your friends and colleagues. We'd also like to thank our partner, 791 00:51:19,610 --> 00:51:23,870 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Check out their other faith-centered podcasts at lifeaudio.com. 792 00:51:24,230 --> 00:51:25,950 Speaker 1: Blessings to you as you make your way.