1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Life audio. Do you believe a miracle can be provenly? Well, 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: I think, like anything else you look at evidence. Proof 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: is a funny word because you know, I come from 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: a law background, and to prove something meaning something versus 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: provide evidence for And I think what we have is 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: evidence from science, from eyewitnesses and so forth that point 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: in a direction of something being true. Do we have 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: to take kind of a step of faith in the 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: same direction the evidence is pointing? Yeah, I think we do. 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: But we do that every day of our lives. So 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: very few things other than mathematics, it is provable beyond 12 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: any doubt whatsoever. There's always some question that needs to 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: be resolved by the quality and the quantity of the 14 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: evidence that we have. 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: Tell us an example or two of significant miracles in 16 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: this movie that maybe you know encourage your faith, and 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: of course, yeah, the case for miracles is the movie 18 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: December the fifteth through the eighteenth. 19 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the ones that we talk about is 20 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: a woman who is blind for a dozen years with 21 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: an incurable condition. She went to a school for the blind, 22 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: she learned how to rebrail, she walked with a white cane, 23 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: and she married a Baptist passer and one night they 24 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: getting ready to go to bed, and she's already in bed. 25 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: He comes over. He puts his hand on her shoulder. 26 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: He begins to cry, and he begins to pray and says, God, 27 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: I know you can heal my wife. I know you 28 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: can do it, and I pray that you do it tonight. 29 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: And with that, she opened her eyes and said, I've 30 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: got perfect eyesight. She saw her husband for the first time. 31 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: She said, for years there was darkness, there was nothing. Now, 32 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it's a miracle. I can see. 33 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: And she said, in her words, I've got perfect vision now. 34 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 1: That her eyesight continued for the rest of her life, 35 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: which was another fifty years. So what do you do 36 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: with something like that. This case was investigated by multiple 37 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: medical researchers and it was published in a peer reviewed 38 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: medical journal. So this is an incredible case that I 39 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: don't think as a natural explanation. I mean, this is 40 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: an incurable condition, juvenile macular degeneration. You don't just see 41 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: that being instantaneously. 42 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 3: Cure it after a prayer. 43 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: How would you define miracle? What's the definition that you 44 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: applied for this book and this movie. 45 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: I think the best definition to say a miracle is 46 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: an event brought about the power of God, that is 47 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: a temporary exception to the ordinary course of nature for 48 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: the purpose of showing that God has acted in history. So, 49 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: in other words, a lot of people misunderstand miracles. They think, oh, 50 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: you can't have a miracle because it would violate the 51 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: laws of nature. That's not what a miracle is about. 52 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: You know, I'm picking up something from my desk or 53 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: this pen. If I were to drop this pen, the 54 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: law of gravity says it's going to hit the floor. 55 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: If I drop this pen and you reach it and 56 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: grab it before it hits the floor, you're not overturning 57 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: the law of gravity, and you're not violating the law 58 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: of gravity. You're merely intervening. And that's what a miracle is. 59 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: We have good evidence from cosmology and physics, for example, 60 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: that there is a creator behind our universe, and if 61 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: indeed a creator can create our universe, then for him 62 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: to vene and the same laws of nature that he 63 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: created would be child's play. 64 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: What about an everyday occurrence, because we often use the 65 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 2: term miracle to describe somebody running into somebody that they 66 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: have been singing years. Yeah, and answered prayer, Yeah, what 67 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: would you say about those types of incidents being called 68 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: a miracle? 69 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think you can have great coincidences. 70 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: I think, you know, for me to document it as 71 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: a miracle, I think it's got to be a well 72 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: documented it's got to have multiple eye witnesses with no 73 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: more but to deceive. It's no natural explanation and so forth. 74 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: So you know, if if all of a sudden, I 75 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: pull up and I see a parking lot in the 76 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: middle of a crowded city, and I say it's a 77 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: miracle I got a parkings place, say well, maybe not, 78 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: you know. And let's face the third cases of fraud 79 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: where people pretend to have a miraculous ceiling. There are 80 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: cases of misdiagnosis or someone says, oh, a seal of cancer, 81 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,559 Speaker 1: but the original diagnosis was wrong. We have the placebo 82 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: effect where people who think they're going to feel better, 83 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: all of a sudden will feel better. So there are 84 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: some explanations going to account for some miracles. And yet 85 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: I did a national survey in which we asked a 86 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: cross section of Americans, have you ever had at least 87 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: one experience in your life you can only explain as 88 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: a miracle of God in thirty eight percent of American 89 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: adults said yes. Now, if we got rid of ninety 90 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: nine percent of those and said okay, they think it 91 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: was a miracle but a big coincidence, that would still 92 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: leave a million miracles just in the United States. 93 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: What do you think the purpose of the miracles are? 94 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: I think they deepen our faith. They point us toward God. 95 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: We see clusters of miracles taking place. I don't think 96 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: miracles are evenly distributed around the planet Earth. We tend 97 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: to see them in places where the gospel is just 98 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: now breaking, in cultures where, by the way, they don't 99 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: have a lot of literate people who can't read a Bible, 100 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: and so in Mozambique, for instance, in parts of Brazil, 101 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: we see clusters of the miraculous taking places, and I 102 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: think that points people toward the reality of God. 103 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: You still my next question, because I was going to 104 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 2: ask you, do you believe miracles are more prevalent in 105 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: certain parts of the world than others? 106 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: The answer is yes, in your opinion. 107 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: It is. And in fact, there was a study done 108 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: by a PhD from Harvard. It was a professor at 109 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: Indiana University who took researchers to Mozambique, where there's a 110 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: cluster of miracles. They went into the rural areas. They said, 111 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: bring us all your deaf and blind. They would then 112 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: test them scientifically, what is their level of vision? What 113 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: is their level of hearing? Then they were immediately prayed 114 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: for in the name of Jesus, and then they were 115 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: tested again scientifically. Is there any difference and get us 116 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: What they found there was improvement of virtually every case. 117 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: In fact, the average improvement in visual acuity was tenfold. 118 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: One woman named Martine could not hear the equivalent of 119 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: a jackcammer next to he when they encountered her. After 120 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: ten minutes of prayer in the name of Jesus, she 121 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: could here a normal conversation. Well, I was gonna ask 122 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: to go ahead and went to another place where miracles 123 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: are breaking in which and the Gospels breaking in, which 124 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: is Brazil. They did the same testing and got the 125 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: same results. This is a legitimate scientific study that was 126 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: published and accepted for publication in a secular, scientific, peer 127 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: reviewed medical journal, the Southern Medical Journal. That's pretty powerful stuff. 128 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: How would you counsel someone who is prank for a 129 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: miracle but it hasn't received one because they'll watch this film, yeah, 130 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 2: and they'll be encouraged, but they might also. 131 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 3: Be discouraged a little bit. How do you counsel someone 132 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: like that? 133 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: Well, you know, this is a story of our life, 134 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: my wife and I My wife has an incurable neuro 135 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: muscular condition. She's been in pain for twenty years. She 136 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: will be in pain every day for the rest of 137 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: her life unless God does a miracle and cures this 138 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: incurable condition, which she has not chosen to do. And 139 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: so we get it. We get it. And yet in 140 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: the New Testament, miracles were not automatic either. In one 141 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: chapter of the Gospels, Jesus gives the disciples the authority 142 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: to heal, and then about six chapters later, they couldn't heal. 143 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: An epilogic boy Paul never had this thorn in the 144 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: flesh was being healed. In fact, Paul had a friend 145 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: named Trophemus. Trophemus was sick. Did Paul heal him? 146 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: Know? 147 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 3: He went off on a. 148 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: Mission every journey instead, So healing was not automatic in 149 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: the New Testament either. God is sovereign. God understands things 150 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: that we don't understand. And you know, the Bible says 151 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: We sometimes use this a sick cliche, but God can 152 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: take things that happened to us, that are difficult, that 153 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: are hard, that are painful, and from those if we 154 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: follow him, if we trusted him, he can create good 155 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: to emerge. And we see that. I see that in 156 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: my wife's life. You know, she's such a person of 157 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: sensitivity and love and compassion for others and empathy for 158 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: others that I don't know she would be if she 159 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: didn't face this issue in her own life. So God 160 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: can take things that are difficult for us and yet 161 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: draw good out of them. 162 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 2: Final question for you, perhaps, so do you hope viewers 163 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 2: of this movie take away from it? 164 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 3: What do you hope they're talking about all the way home? 165 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: I hope for Christians they walk away evermore in love 166 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: with God and evermore solid in their faith. But I 167 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: hope they also reach out to a friend who's maybe 168 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: a spiritual skeptic or someone who's maybe just spiritually curious 169 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: and say, hey, I just saw this movie. Why don't 170 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: you come with me tomorrow we'll see it again. I'll 171 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: see it again. You can see it for the first 172 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: time and then we could talk about and see what 173 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: you think. But you know, this was dumb, bad guy 174 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: who was a skeptic himself, an atheist himself, and yet 175 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: came to faith because of the evidence for a supernatural 176 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: miracle of the resurrection, and now has researched these cases 177 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: that are well documented. These are just stories that you 178 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: hear in an elevator. So I hope people use it 179 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: as an outreach and I hope it deepens the faith 180 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: of believers as well. 181 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 3: Let me ask you more question. 182 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, because E've ben following Christianity for several decades now, 183 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: and we're kind of in a period right now where 184 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: it seems to be. 185 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 3: Christianity is on the rise. 186 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 2: Almost Bible sales are a college campus is being arenas 187 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: are being filled with college students, worship being interesting, Jesus 188 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: is up. How would you describe this movement and what 189 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: do you think How do you think the Body of 190 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: Christ should react to it. 191 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: I think it's very encouraging. I see evidence of it. 192 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: I have a friend whose ministry is to travel the 193 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: country and to speak to audiences of college or high 194 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: school students. He said, Lee, I've seen more young people 195 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: come to faith in Jesus Christ in the last three 196 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: years than the previous eighteen years of ministry combine. Something 197 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: is going on. God is working in amazing ways right now. 198 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: And I think for those of us who are Christians, 199 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: this is an opportunity. You know, Christmas season is upon 200 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: us and people are more spiritually open during the Christmas season. 201 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: Let's take a risk and invite them to come to 202 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: the movie or to Christmas service as a church, give 203 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: them a Christian book or whatever. But you see this 204 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: season as an opportunity to reach out, to be able, 205 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: to be praying for them, to be looking for opportunities 206 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: or spiritual conversations, and then when those opportunities come up, 207 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: they have the courage to kind of pursue them. 208 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 3: Lee, thanks so much. 209 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: I enjoyed it, Michael, Thank you, my friend. 210 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 4: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe 211 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 4: and share the episode with a friend. A big thanks 212 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 4: to the team at Life Audio for their partnership with 213 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 4: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 214 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 4: you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in 215 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 4: their network. 216 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: See you next time.