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Speaker 1: Welcome, everybody, to Christian Parent, Crazy World. This is a

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Speaker 1: podcast that tackles tough topics to help you be a

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Speaker 1: godly parent in an ungodly world. I am your host,

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Speaker 1: Katherine Seegers, and in today's episode, we are going to

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Speaker 1: wrestle with a provocative question that actually has to do

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Speaker 1: with wrestling. That is, are we supposed to wrestle with.

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Speaker 2: God in this life? Is it okay to be confused, hurt,

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Speaker 2: even angry over what He.

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Speaker 3: Allows us to do? Now, some would say no, but.

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Speaker 2: I believe scripture gives us a powerful precedent.

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Speaker 1: For wrestling with God. And today, I've invited the women

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Speaker 1: who have stood by me through some of my hardest seasons.

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Speaker 1: They know me deeply, and together we've wrestled through tough theological, cultural,

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Speaker 1: and relational issues. But most of all, we've wrestled with

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Speaker 1: the suffering that God has allowed in our lives. So today,

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Speaker 1: we are going to explore the biblical precedent for wrestling

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Speaker 1: with God, and then we're going to show you what

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Speaker 1: that wrestling looks like in real life.

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Speaker 4: Together.

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Speaker 1: That's the plan for this episode of Christian Parent Crazy World.

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Speaker 3: So a few weeks ago, I.

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Speaker 2: Was sitting with my husband, Brian, in our new home

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Speaker 2: here in the Nashville area, and I was working on

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Speaker 2: an outline for this episode that I was going to

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Speaker 2: have with my two closest friends, Dr. Erin Berry and

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Speaker 2: Susan Frost. And Brian asked what we were going to

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Speaker 2: be talking about, and I said, wrestling. And he said, like, WWF?

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Speaker 2: And I said, pretty much, only with God. And here's

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Speaker 2: the thing.

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Speaker 3: A lot of.

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Speaker 2: Believers would say, you shouldn't wrestle with God. He's God,

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Speaker 2: and you're not. His ways are higher than your ways,

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Speaker 2: and his thoughts are higher than your thoughts.

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Speaker 3: And you may not.

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Speaker 2: Understand why he allows certain things, but you need to

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Speaker 2: trust God. his sovereignty and submit to his will and

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Speaker 2: believe that he's working all things together for good. And

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Speaker 2: wrestling with him is only going to get in the

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Speaker 2: way of that trust. And let me just say, I

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Speaker 2: agree with all of that. But the last part, the

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Speaker 2: part about wrestling, I agree with everything else. But others

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Speaker 2: would say, okay, now wait a minute. Look at the Psalms.

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Speaker 3: Look at Job.

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Speaker 2: Look at Jacob wrestling with God through the night.

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Speaker 3: Scripture is awesome.

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Speaker 1: Full of people who brought their anguish and their questions

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Speaker 1: and even their complaints directly to God. Faith doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: pretending you're okay when you're not. Sometimes trusting God means

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Speaker 1: being honest with them about how much you're hurting.

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Speaker 2: So which is it?

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Speaker 1: Because when it comes to suffering, we have to reckon

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Speaker 1: with three truths that seem difficult to reconcile.

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Speaker 2: Number one, God is all-powerful. Number two, God is all good.

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Speaker 2: And number three, evil and suffering are present reality in

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Speaker 2: our world and in our lives. So how do we

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Speaker 2: square that theological triangle? Yeah, that is a tough question.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I recently re-aired.

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Speaker 1: An episode with Dr.

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Speaker 2: Douglas Groteis. It was called, How Could a Good God

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Speaker 2: Allow Evil and Suffering?

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Speaker 3: And Dr.

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Speaker 1: Groteis in that episode with me explored that question from

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Speaker 1: a theological perspective. So if you haven't heard that conversation,

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Speaker 1: I encourage you to go back and check it out.

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Speaker 1: But today, we are going to approach suffering from a

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Speaker 1: different angle. We're going to ask, how do we actually

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Speaker 1: wrestle through suffering in this life as believers? And my

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Speaker 1: guests today are the women I wrestle through all the

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Speaker 1: tough stuff with.

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Speaker 3: Dr.

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Speaker 1: Erin Berry is a licensed Christian counselor who has an

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Speaker 1: incredible ministry walking alongside people in their hardest hours. And

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Speaker 1: Susan Frost is a certified trauma coach who also does

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Speaker 1: a great deal.

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Speaker 2: Of in-home ministry. But more than that, these are my

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Speaker 2: closest friends. You could say... You could say that they

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Speaker 2: are my WWF partners when it comes to wrestling through

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Speaker 2: the tough stuff. And over the next two episodes, the

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Speaker 2: three of us are going.

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Speaker 1: To explore this together. First, we are going to establish

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Speaker 1: the biblical precedent for wrestling with God. Because like I said,

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Speaker 1: some believers have been taught that questioning what God allows

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Speaker 1: is somehow a failure of our faith. So we're going

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Speaker 1: to look at what scripture actually shows us. But we're

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Speaker 1: not going to stop at just the theology. We're also

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Speaker 1: going to model how to wrestle with God when suffering

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Speaker 1: hits close to home. We're going to talk honestly about

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Speaker 1: the questions, about the disappointment and the confusion. And we're

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Speaker 1: going to explore four things we can lean into during

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Speaker 1: seasons of suffering. And I want you to know something

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Speaker 1: about this conversation.

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Speaker 2: I did not want it to feel like three women

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Speaker 2: trying to teach a lesson about suffering.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 1: I wanted it to feel like you have pulled up

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Speaker 1: a chair and are listening in on the kinds of

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Speaker 1: deep conversations that the three of us have had together

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Speaker 1: for many years. Because when you're wrestling through something, you

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Speaker 1: don't always have tidy questions or tidy answers and you

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Speaker 1: don't need a sermon.

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Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you're just confused and you're disappointed and

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Speaker 2: you're angry and you wonder where God is and why

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Speaker 2: he hasn't shown up the way that you hoped and

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Speaker 2: prayed that he would. And I don't think that makes

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Speaker 2: you a bad believer. I think that makes you an

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Speaker 2: honest believer.

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Speaker 3: And we want to.

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Speaker 2: Be honest about all that you go through when you're

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Speaker 2: suffering while remembering.

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Speaker 1: That the goal isn't to wrestle away from God. It's

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Speaker 1: to wrestle our way toward him. And I truly believe

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Speaker 1: that when you do that, when you wrestle through the

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Speaker 1: tough stuff with God, you're going to walk away with

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Speaker 1: a stronger faith and a deeper relationship with your Heavenly Father.

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Speaker 1: So with that said, I will take you to my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Susan Frost and Dr.

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Speaker 2: Erin Berry. Susan and Erin, welcome to Christian Parent Crazy World.

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Speaker 2: I am so honored and excited to have you both

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Speaker 2: here today.

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Speaker 3: It's always an honor to be here, Katherine. Thank you

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Speaker 3: so much for inviting us.

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Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, Erin and Catherine, for including me in

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Speaker 5: this conversation.

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Speaker 6: It's going to be so good. Well, you are always

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Speaker 6: in all of our conversations. So Erin's been on the

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Speaker 6: show a couple of times. Erin was my very first

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Speaker 6: guest on Christian Parent Crazy World. I had you on

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Speaker 6: the show, first and foremost, because you are eminently qualified

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Speaker 6: to be. And the conversations that we've had, those first

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Speaker 6: conversations we did on sexuality, and then we have done

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Speaker 6: some really incredible conversations since then. But I wanted a

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Speaker 6: soft place to land unless I screwed the whole thing up.

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Speaker 2: And then, so Susan, actually Susan introduced us years and

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Speaker 2: years ago, and the three of us are on text

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Speaker 2: chains all the time, just talking about life, wrestling through

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Speaker 2: all sorts of things, theological issues, cultural issues, everything. family issues,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of the time it's usually me like,

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Speaker 2: I'm going through this, help me. The two of you

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Speaker 2: are my inner circle of people that I wrestle through

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Speaker 2: things with, and I think vice versa. We all go

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Speaker 2: through a lot of things together. And so I couldn't

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Speaker 2: think of a better combo to have here today to

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Speaker 2: talk about what, when we're wrestling through the things that

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Speaker 2: God allows in this life. I wanted to add to that, though. So, Erin,

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Speaker 2: you were my very first guest, period. And we did

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Speaker 2: a Zoom call. Susan, you are now my very first

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Speaker 2: in-studio guest. kind of creating a studio now that we've

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Speaker 2: moved to the Nashville area. And so this is the

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Speaker 2: first time we've done one in person. We had some

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Speaker 2: technical hoops we had to jump through this morning, but

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Speaker 2: I can't think of a better first in-studio guest to

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Speaker 2: have than my other bestie here. So I'm so glad

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Speaker 2: to have you here. It's a little sparse. Don't have

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Speaker 2: the paint up or any pictures yet, but it's going

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Speaker 2: to get the job done. So welcome, to the studio

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Speaker 2: or studio. Hopefully it'll look a little more like one eventually,

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Speaker 2: but I'm so honored to have you both here. Like

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Speaker 2: I said, you're the ones that I come to to

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Speaker 2: wrestle through all sorts of things. And I can almost

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Speaker 2: see perhaps in the future. This becoming a thing, like

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Speaker 2: the three of us, because we talk about all the

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Speaker 2: theological stuff. Oh, did you see this interview? You know,

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Speaker 2: even if it is like hours long and we both,

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Speaker 2: we all listen to it and then we get back

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Speaker 2: together and chat about, you know, that theological issue or

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Speaker 2: a cultural issue. But I would say where we spend

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Speaker 2: a lot of real estate, if not most of the

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Speaker 2: real estate, and this is probably due to me, is

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Speaker 2: the stuff that we're wrestling through in terms of sufferings.

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Speaker 2: And the evil that's in this world and the things

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Speaker 2: that we're going through and we need our inner circle

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Speaker 2: to talk to about that. So I love doing that

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Speaker 2: with you guys. Why don't you introduce yourselves to the audience?

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Speaker 2: Just very quickly tell us who you are, what you do,

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Speaker 2: a little bit about your family and ministry. Go ahead, Erin.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm Dr. Erin Berry. I am a clinical

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Speaker 3: Christian counselor. So I spend a lot of time just

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Speaker 3: obviously seeing clients. My husband and I have been in

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Speaker 3: ministry our whole life, and he's a worship pastor, and

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Speaker 3: we've done lots of concert ministry and family ministry and

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Speaker 3: marriage ministry, worship ministry together. We have three grown children

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Speaker 3: and two little granddaughters.

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Speaker 2: Yes, down here near us, where you need to be.

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Speaker 2: We are willing and praying for you to get back

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Speaker 2: down to the Nashville area with Susan and me. Okay, Susan,

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Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

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Speaker 5: I am Susan Frost. I'm a certified trauma-informed life coach

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Speaker 5: through Freedom Organization with Carrie Garcia. I'm married to Brian

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Speaker 5: and we have one son, Drew, who's married to Faith

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Speaker 5: and they are lovely. Brian and I do a lot

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Speaker 5: of just in-home ministries, counseling. We do a lot of mentoring,

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Speaker 5: married couples, a lot of young adults, people who are in, um,

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Speaker 5: places where they're just trying to figure out life. Yes.

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Speaker 2: We, we just kind of do it. We, we love that. We're,

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Speaker 2: you know, the only real credential we have is the

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Speaker 2: certification and the life coach, but it's, uh, it's been

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Speaker 2: pretty fun. Uh, yes. You're, definitely one of my great

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Speaker 2: soft and wise places to land. I'll reverse that. You're

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Speaker 2: very wise and a soft place to land. Erin has

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Speaker 2: gifted me so much free counseling over the years and

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Speaker 2: you as well, Susan. I am in a Bible study

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Speaker 2: with Susan right now. This is so cool. We met

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Speaker 2: each other in a Bible study. How many years ago

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Speaker 2: was that?

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Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: It's been a long time. Our kids were very young.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Still homeschooling. Yes, we were. So it's been definitely what

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Speaker 2: Over 15 years ago, at least. So we met in

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Speaker 2: a community Bible study, and now we are doing community

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Speaker 2: Bible study again, studying the book of Acts. And so

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be a part of that. And

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Speaker 2: Aaron and I have been in a prayer group for, goodness,

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Speaker 2: four or five years now, where we meet once a

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Speaker 2: month and get together for prayer needs.

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Speaker 5: And so.

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Speaker 2: I'm just so excited to have this conversation with the

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Speaker 2: two of you today because actually recently I re-aired a

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Speaker 2: pretty important interview I had early on in the show

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Speaker 2: where I was talking to Dr. Douglas Groteis.

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Speaker 5: Dr.

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Speaker 2: Groteis wrote my Christian Apologetics textbook. I was like beyond

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Speaker 2: thrilled to get an interview with him. This book is

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Speaker 2: over 800 pages long where he really makes a comprehensive

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Speaker 2: case for biblical faith. And I had... any number of

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Speaker 2: topics I could have asked him about because he's eminently

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Speaker 2: qualified to talk about anything in the field of Christian

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Speaker 2: apologetics or philosophy or theology. But the topic I landed

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Speaker 2: on was one that was the biggest barrier to Gen

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Speaker 2: Z coming to the faith.

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Speaker 3: And that was.

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Speaker 2: How could a good God allow so much evil and

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Speaker 2: suffering in the world? And So we processed that together.

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Speaker 2: He gave us a really great theological case for that because,

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Speaker 2: by the way, every worldview has to deal with this

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Speaker 2: in terms, you know, no matter what the religious view

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Speaker 2: is or the worldview is, even if you're atheist, you

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Speaker 2: have a really hard time understanding or making a case

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Speaker 2: for why evil exists if you're just a materialist and

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Speaker 2: all you believe is that there's the natural world. So

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Speaker 2: we wrestled through all of that, and he also shared

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Speaker 2: a very poignant story of his own suffering. His wife, Rebecca,

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Speaker 2: contracted dementia at a very young age. I think she

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Speaker 2: was still in her 50s, maybe early 60s, but it

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Speaker 2: was definitely a lot younger than one would expect. And

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Speaker 2: while I say all of these brilliant things about Dr. Grothuis,

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Speaker 2: because he is brilliant, his wife edited all of his books.

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Speaker 2: And she was a MNSA member, which is the International

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Speaker 2: High IQ Society. And he joked about the fact that

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Speaker 2: they asked her to be a part of it, not him.

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Speaker 2: And he still had her Mensa card. She tragically did pass.

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Speaker 2: It was a very difficult journey for him to watch

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Speaker 2: her mind deteriorate like that. So we had a really

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Speaker 2: powerful and poignant conversation about that. But I wanted to

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Speaker 2: invite you guys back on. Well, you, Erin, and you, Susan,

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Speaker 2: for the first time. Because I wanted to show our

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Speaker 2: audience kind of how we wrestle through this together. The

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Speaker 2: things that God allows in life. Because... we have deep

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Speaker 2: and abiding faith in God. And one of the things Dr.

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Speaker 2: Grotai said that really touched me in that interview, he

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Speaker 2: was like, I knew too much to go anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: I'd studied all of the other religions. I considered them all.

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Speaker 2: I understood what they all taught. I certainly understood the

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Speaker 2: claims of agnosticism and atheism and naturalism, materialism. He's like,

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Speaker 2: I knew that the words of life are contained in

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Speaker 2: our holy book. So I have to wrestle through this

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Speaker 2: as a Christian because it's true. And that's what we

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Speaker 2: do together. The three of us do that together. And

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Speaker 2: so I kind of wanted to give the audience a

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Speaker 2: taste of that. So recently I did an episode. It

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Speaker 2: was episode 191. It was kind of the flip side

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Speaker 2: of this. And that's why I wanted to come back

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Speaker 2: to this part of the conversation. It was when a

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Speaker 2: giant is standing between you and God's promise. And I

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Speaker 2: kind of walked through what had happened in the last

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Speaker 2: year of my life, which you guys were front row

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Speaker 2: seat for. And just the struggles, the heartaches, the difficulties.

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Speaker 2: But then all of a sudden it was like, hold

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Speaker 2: your horses, whiplash. God starts moving and threading needles that

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Speaker 2: were so tiny that I could barely even see them.

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Speaker 2: And you're like, clearly God, when he chooses to, when

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Speaker 2: it's his will, he moves heaven and earth to do things.

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Speaker 2: And we've all seen it. We've all can look back

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Speaker 2: over the course of our lives and we can see

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Speaker 2: these miracles and that God has sovereignly ordained, and yet

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Speaker 2: on the other side, you're like, I'm praying for this thing.

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Speaker 2: It seems so simple. Sometimes it may seem so small,

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Speaker 2: or maybe it's big, and it feels like, God, where

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Speaker 2: are you? You're silent. You didn't show up. I rolled

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Speaker 2: out red carpet for you to be here. I'm just

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Speaker 2: speaking personally of some of the things I've gone through recently.

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Speaker 2: On the other side of this, I'm like, it's so

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Speaker 2: hard to make sense of how God can, on the

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Speaker 2: one hand... just show up big and strong and it

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Speaker 2: feels like firework shows are going off because he is

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Speaker 2: so big and so evident in this one area of

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Speaker 2: my life in particular moving to Nashville the things he

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Speaker 2: did was just like I just my head was spinning

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Speaker 2: everybody's head our realtors were like I've never seen this

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Speaker 2: before this is crazy that this happened the way you

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Speaker 2: ended up here and then on the other side I'm

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Speaker 2: like I'm praying for this seemingly simple silly thing That

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Speaker 2: would have meant the world to my daughter and one

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Speaker 2: of her friends. I'll get to this later. I rolled

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Speaker 2: out red carpet and I'm like, it ended in tragedy

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Speaker 2: and heartache. And so that's why we're here today. And

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about the concept of wrestling with God.

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Speaker 2: There's this really incredible passage of scripture where Jacob wrestles

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Speaker 2: with God. There's this story where Jacob is wrestling. It's

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Speaker 2: a mysterious man. He shows up. This is in Genesis

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Speaker 2: chapter 32. And he wrestles with this man through the night.

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Speaker 2: And as daybreak approaches, the man, this mysterious man, touches

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Speaker 2: Jacob's hip and he dislocates it. But Jacob still, he

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Speaker 2: refuses to let go. And I think that's how we

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Speaker 2: feel sometimes in these seasons. Like, I'm in pain. I'm hurting,

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Speaker 2: but I've got nowhere else to go. God, you're true.

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Speaker 2: I know you're true. Your word is truth. I know

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Speaker 2: you're real. I know that I have to, like Dr.

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Speaker 2: Grotai said, wrestle through this as a Christian, as a believer.

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Speaker 2: And so he does, he insists, he says, I will

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Speaker 2: not let you go until you bless me. And that's

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Speaker 2: when God, you know, of course, this mysterious man is God.

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Speaker 2: changes his name to Israel. And I love the meaning

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Speaker 2: of that name because he tells them what it means.

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Speaker 2: It means one who wrestles with God and man and overcomes.

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Speaker 2: And so I want to talk about how we do

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Speaker 2: that together. Thoughts that you might have on everything I've

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Speaker 2: said up to this point, Erin, and the story of

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Speaker 2: Jacob in Scripture. Why don't you enlighten us with your

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Speaker 2: brilliant thoughts on that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think... The first thing I think about is

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Speaker 3: that he's, so he wrestles, he won't let go, but

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Speaker 3: then he's marked, right? So he, the angel of the

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Speaker 3: Lord touches his hip and he's never the same. And

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Speaker 3: the way that he walks is not the same. And

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Speaker 3: that's in my, like the physical manifestation is that way

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Speaker 3: that he walks, but it makes me think symbolically that,

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Speaker 3: When we wrestle with God, and I think you pointed

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Speaker 3: that out, that we wrestle because things don't look like

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Speaker 3: we expected them to look. So in a way, we're

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Speaker 3: walking one way. Then we encounter this difficulty. We wrestle

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Speaker 3: with the Lord. Once we pass through it, our walk

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Speaker 3: looks different. And when I think about it... I love that.

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Speaker 3: I think, too, that he... Everybody else noticed too. And

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Speaker 3: in a way, it's a vulnerability and a humility, right?

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Speaker 3: That walk would look like it's a vulnerability and a humility,

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Speaker 3: but a strength. I think that it's sort of an awe.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I say that, I remember there was

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Speaker 3: a time that we saw some men from China, and

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Speaker 3: they had been in the Chinese church and they came.

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Speaker 3: And when you saw them physically, this is a little different,

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Speaker 3: but their bodies reflected prison, beating. Like physically, they looked weakened.

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Speaker 3: But when they got up to speak, there was a

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Speaker 3: power and an authority in their words. It was just...

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Speaker 3: it blew you away. So that's what I kind of

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Speaker 3: think of when I look at that passage. I think

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Speaker 3: the wrestling is real and hard and long and feels empty.

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Speaker 3: But like you said, where else do we go? What

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Speaker 3: do we do? But once you're through it, there's a

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Speaker 3: power and authority that comes on the person.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful. I love that imagery of the Chinese man. I've,

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Speaker 2: been able to hear Dr. Yoon, uh, brother Yoon, brother

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Speaker 2: Yoon speak, who wrote the heavenly man a couple of

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Speaker 2: times and his suffering in China was immense. Uh, and

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Speaker 2: just how did you even survive that and things we

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Speaker 2: don't fully understand in the West here. Uh, but wow,

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Speaker 2: that's incredible. Susan, what are your thoughts on that wrestling

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Speaker 2: of Jacob with God and anything else?

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Speaker 5: So when I think about this story, I often go

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Speaker 5: back to a Bible study that I did years ago,

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Speaker 5: probably in the 90s, somewhere in there, where we were

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Speaker 5: studying Genesis and obviously the story of Jacob came up.

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Speaker 5: And one of the questions in our study was, do

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Speaker 5: you think that Jacob would have gotten the blessing of

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Speaker 5: God had he not wrestled all night? And the leader

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Speaker 5: of the group, I think she was well-meaning, but she said, okay,

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Speaker 5: we'll just all answer this one together.

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Speaker 2: And everybody said yes.

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Speaker 5: And I was like, and then she said, well, just

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Speaker 5: on the off chance that somebody has a different opinion.

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Speaker 2: Which, you know, this is always me. This is why

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Speaker 2: I gravitated towards you so many years ago. Because in

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Speaker 2: that class, when we met, there were always two. It

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Speaker 2: was the two of us. And we're like, there was

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Speaker 2: a kindred spirit here. Yeah, we're going to be friends.

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Speaker 2: Good ones.

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Speaker 5: Good. I just told them, I was like, no, I

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Speaker 5: don't think that we just have this automatic path. That

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Speaker 5: God just has this big plan and he's going to

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Speaker 5: do whatever he wants, no matter what.

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Speaker 2: No matter what we think.

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Speaker 5: I think that, you know, I, I was like, sometimes

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Speaker 5: I think God wants to invite us into something and

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Speaker 5: work it out with him in us and with.

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Speaker 2: Him to accomplish his plan. Of course, it's always that way.

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Speaker 5: But also I think sometimes we just have to ask ourselves,

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Speaker 5: how bad do we want something? How, what are we

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Speaker 5: willing to do to get to the, from point A

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Speaker 5: to point B, you know, with the, with the Lord

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Speaker 5: and with ourselves and how do we navigate that pathway?

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Speaker 5: And sometimes I think that the reason that people say

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Speaker 5: yes to that question is because, well, that's pretty and

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Speaker 5: that's easy and that's, you know, theologically simple.

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Speaker 2: You know, you don't have to question your.

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Speaker 5: Beliefs or you don't have to question your thoughts or

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Speaker 5: your actions or even question somebody else's Where they might be.

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Speaker 5: But when you answer that question as a no, it

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Speaker 5: brings about this whole idea of like suddenly it feels messy.

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Speaker 5: It feels like, well, are they really a Christian? Like,

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Speaker 5: you know, the eyebrows go up.

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Speaker 2: The whole thing. But life sometimes is messy.

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Speaker 5: And I think that we have to have the permission

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Speaker 5: to wrestle. And I think that's where a lot of

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Speaker 5: people fail. You know, just because... they don't want to

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Speaker 5: make a mistake or they don't want to be off

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Speaker 5: in some form or fashion. And so it's just easier

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Speaker 5: to say the broad sweep of, well, of course God

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Speaker 5: would do that. God's sovereign and he does what he wants. And,

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Speaker 5: and while that is true, I do think that there

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Speaker 5: is an invitation for us to come into that. I

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Speaker 5: do think that God is wanting to partner with us

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Speaker 5: and he's wanting us to, like Aaron said, allow him

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Speaker 5: to mark us, allow him to, put this seal on

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Speaker 5: us or this stamp on us that says, I've wrestled

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Speaker 5: with God and my life is forever changed.

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Speaker 2: Wrestled with God and man and overcome.

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Speaker 5: Go ahead, Erin.

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Speaker 3: I like what she said, too, because I also think

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Speaker 3: that is so pervasive in our society. We don't want

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Speaker 3: anyone to suffer. So much so that our children, we're

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Speaker 3: seeing some real weakness of character.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: Because we think that Pain and suffering is what we

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00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,889
Speaker 3: want to avoid. But the reality is mistakes, pain and suffering,

436
00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:55,250
Speaker 3: that's actually how you get to what really matters and

437
00:24:55,330 --> 00:25:00,929
Speaker 3: how you become who you're intended to be. But if

438
00:25:00,990 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: you don't suffer, then the little things of life take

439
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 3: you out. And like Susan is saying, it's messy.

440
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,870
Speaker 5: Yes, it can be very messy. And sometimes I think,

441
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:17,530
Speaker 5: you know, if we don't allow ourselves to wrestle, then

442
00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:19,010
Speaker 5: we're not going to let our friends wrestle.

443
00:25:19,030 --> 00:25:20,510
Speaker 2: We're not going to let our kids wrestle.

444
00:25:20,550 --> 00:25:23,030
Speaker 5: We're not going to let, you know, it just, it

445
00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:25,590
Speaker 5: just snowballs to where we just want everything to be

446
00:25:25,670 --> 00:25:26,429
Speaker 5: easy and perfect.

447
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,980
Speaker 2: And that's, that's not real life. I mean, scripture says.

448
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 5: In this world, you will have trouble, but take heart.

449
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 5: I've overcome this world and he is going to, we're

450
00:25:36,619 --> 00:25:40,179
Speaker 5: going to overcome because he's overcome and, But it can

451
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 5: and it often is messy.

452
00:25:42,220 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: Yes. There's this really crazy verse in Hebrews chapter 5, 8,

453
00:25:46,740 --> 00:25:53,220
Speaker 2: where it says that Jesus learned obedience through what he suffered. So, yeah,

454
00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 2: we are going to have suffering. The key is like,

455
00:25:55,140 --> 00:25:58,630
Speaker 2: and like you said, it gets messy and people don't

456
00:25:58,670 --> 00:26:02,190
Speaker 2: want to walk with you through that. That's why you guys,

457
00:26:03,930 --> 00:26:06,030
Speaker 2: you have gone so many rounds with me through the

458
00:26:06,150 --> 00:26:10,190
Speaker 2: things that I've suffered and, and, You have to have

459
00:26:10,210 --> 00:26:14,179
Speaker 2: a circle of people that are willing and able to

460
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,260
Speaker 2: not call you a heretic, to not say you're walking

461
00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:21,770
Speaker 2: in sin or disobedience because you're really having a hard time.

462
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: with this this season of suffering that you may be

463
00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:27,459
Speaker 2: in and you guys are those people for me which

464
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 2: is exactly why I invited you on the show so

465
00:26:29,859 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: what I want to talk about and this is this

466
00:26:31,780 --> 00:26:34,550
Speaker 2: is probably going to be a two-parter at least because

467
00:26:35,290 --> 00:26:38,270
Speaker 2: I am there's so much richness and what both of

468
00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:41,150
Speaker 2: you said and I love that you really highlighted Susan

469
00:26:41,730 --> 00:26:44,790
Speaker 2: how hard it is to walk through these seasons sometimes

470
00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:46,629
Speaker 2: in the body of Christ because everybody wants to get

471
00:26:46,670 --> 00:26:49,340
Speaker 2: it all fixed and And that's what your whole job is.

472
00:26:50,430 --> 00:26:53,830
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Aaron, you sit around all day and have

473
00:26:53,850 --> 00:26:56,070
Speaker 2: to listen to people who are coming in. And I'm

474
00:26:56,109 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: sure a large part of it is their circles aren't

475
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,659
Speaker 2: supporting them. They aren't allowing them to walk through the

476
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: grief and the suffering that is legitimate and real. And

477
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 2: that's one of the things I've always so appreciated about

478
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,810
Speaker 2: both of you. You validate the suffering. You don't minimize

479
00:27:10,869 --> 00:27:15,710
Speaker 2: the suffering. And you allow me the the space to

480
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:18,850
Speaker 2: really work it out. I'm going to get there. Yeah.

481
00:27:19,130 --> 00:27:21,630
Speaker 2: I know you guys are going to get there. We're

482
00:27:21,690 --> 00:27:25,369
Speaker 2: going to get there. Like Peter did. That was a

483
00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:27,810
Speaker 2: verse that Dr. Groteis brought up. And when he was

484
00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:30,860
Speaker 2: talking about the suffering of his wife was this John 6,

485
00:27:30,859 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: 68 and 69. It's this really fascinating passage where Jesus

486
00:27:37,580 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: is just like dropped a bomb on all of his followers, right?

487
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: He's like, unless you, eat my body and drink my blood.

488
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,100
Speaker 2: You can have no part of me. And they're all like, wait, what, what,

489
00:27:48,140 --> 00:27:48,540
Speaker 2: what did.

490
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,020
Speaker 3: He just say?

491
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,900
Speaker 2: What did we sign up for? Is this some cannibalistic

492
00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: cult that we're in? They didn't understand. Of course he

493
00:27:55,900 --> 00:28:01,990
Speaker 2: was speaking spiritually and somewhat metaphorically, but a lot of

494
00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:06,189
Speaker 2: his followers deserted him at this point. And he turns

495
00:28:06,210 --> 00:28:09,950
Speaker 2: to Peter who doesn't understand it either. But what does

496
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:10,550
Speaker 2: Peter say?

497
00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:14,830
Speaker 3: Lord, Where else are we going to go?

498
00:28:14,910 --> 00:28:19,070
Speaker 2: To whom shall we go? You have the words of life.

499
00:28:19,410 --> 00:28:21,530
Speaker 2: We believe and know that you are the Holy one

500
00:28:21,550 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: of God. And that is the place where I believe

501
00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:29,780
Speaker 2: suffering hopefully gets us to this place where we're like,

502
00:28:29,820 --> 00:28:32,140
Speaker 2: I don't understand what you just said or what you

503
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: just allowed. I don't understand what you're asking of me.

504
00:28:35,060 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: I don't know why this didn't get answered the way

505
00:28:37,980 --> 00:28:41,420
Speaker 2: that I hoped and prayed that it would. But where

506
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,310
Speaker 2: else am I going to go? Because I know that

507
00:28:44,350 --> 00:28:48,010
Speaker 2: the word is true and nothing else out there makes sense.

508
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:50,650
Speaker 2: And the one thing I know I've got going for

509
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:54,950
Speaker 2: me here is that, you know, the suffering exists, but

510
00:28:55,030 --> 00:28:57,950
Speaker 2: you are going to make something good come out of it.

511
00:28:58,490 --> 00:29:01,380
Speaker 2: That good will come out of it if I'm submitted

512
00:29:01,420 --> 00:29:03,900
Speaker 2: to your process and I let you mark me and

513
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to walk with a limp, but I'm going

514
00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:09,340
Speaker 2: to have a testimony of your faithfulness in the middle

515
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:13,180
Speaker 2: of it. of this difficult season. So I want to

516
00:29:13,220 --> 00:29:17,340
Speaker 2: talk about four things that we can lean into in

517
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:22,730
Speaker 2: our suffering. The first thing we're doing right now, we

518
00:29:22,830 --> 00:29:27,550
Speaker 2: lean in to God's family. And we'll probably get to

519
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:29,489
Speaker 2: the first two in this episode and the second two

520
00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:33,190
Speaker 2: in the next one. We lean into God's family. And

521
00:29:33,530 --> 00:29:36,630
Speaker 2: as Susan so astutely pointed out, it doesn't mean the

522
00:29:36,650 --> 00:29:39,210
Speaker 2: whole family. There may be some family members out there

523
00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:39,990
Speaker 2: that can't handle it.

524
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:40,470
Speaker 5: It.

525
00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:44,460
Speaker 2: And I have experienced that a lot, which is why

526
00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: sometimes when you're going through a really difficult season, I

527
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,370
Speaker 2: know when we first started going through the prodigal season

528
00:29:50,410 --> 00:29:53,030
Speaker 2: of my daughter, I say the prodigal season. She was

529
00:29:53,070 --> 00:29:55,730
Speaker 2: prodigal in her belief. She wasn't out there wild and crazy.

530
00:29:56,290 --> 00:30:00,270
Speaker 2: But I realized very quickly on, as I shared with

531
00:30:00,310 --> 00:30:04,450
Speaker 2: some people, maybe some family members or some close friends, that, okay,

532
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: I've got to draw this circle pretty tight. And it

533
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: consisted of Brian and the two of you at some points.

534
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,510
Speaker 2: We have the group that Aaron and I have been

535
00:30:16,770 --> 00:30:19,410
Speaker 2: meeting with for a number of years. It was a really,

536
00:30:19,550 --> 00:30:23,650
Speaker 2: really tight group where I shared everything with and really

537
00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:28,140
Speaker 2: wept with and prayed with. So let's talk about leaning

538
00:30:28,380 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: into God's family. Why don't you start, Erin? Give us

539
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: some cautions and some advice on that. Because like I said,

540
00:30:35,140 --> 00:30:39,030
Speaker 2: you can lean the wrong direction, even in God's family,

541
00:30:39,670 --> 00:30:42,110
Speaker 2: and find yourself with some other wounds that you need

542
00:30:42,150 --> 00:30:45,850
Speaker 2: to find your counselor. I came to you with so

543
00:30:45,870 --> 00:30:47,969
Speaker 2: many of those wounds, like licking those wounds.

544
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:48,060
Speaker 5: Yes.

545
00:30:49,070 --> 00:30:51,870
Speaker 2: And you helped me so much, Erin. Thank you. But

546
00:30:51,910 --> 00:30:55,010
Speaker 2: give us some advice when we're going through a season

547
00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:58,950
Speaker 2: of suffering, leaning into God's family. How do we do that?

548
00:30:59,750 --> 00:31:04,030
Speaker 3: And I like how you said we choose, in a way,

549
00:31:04,090 --> 00:31:07,260
Speaker 3: the safe people, I would say, and those that don't

550
00:31:07,340 --> 00:31:08,260
Speaker 3: try to fix.

551
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: Thank you.

552
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:09,860
Speaker 5: Yes.

553
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 3: You need people that will sit with you. And I

554
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 3: think we talked about on a different podcast, I love

555
00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:18,540
Speaker 3: that part in Job. Where at the beginning, the friends

556
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: are good. They sit in silence for a week. They

557
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,900
Speaker 3: don't say anything. And I think when somebody's suffering, number one,

558
00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:29,370
Speaker 3: you want to find people that will do exactly what

559
00:31:29,390 --> 00:31:32,670
Speaker 3: you said. Give them space. Give you space to be

560
00:31:32,750 --> 00:31:36,590
Speaker 3: and to pour out your heart without judgment and honestly

561
00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:41,290
Speaker 3: without input. I mean, on occasion might be one, but

562
00:31:41,330 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: that will listen and will just let you get it

563
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:50,420
Speaker 3: out because you have to. And I think also it's,

564
00:31:50,620 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 3: like you said, a very small group because otherwise you're

565
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: going to get all kinds of input. And that's what

566
00:31:56,940 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: I even tell my clients. Like I had a client

567
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 3: once and she was seeing another counselor. And I actually

568
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: told her, I said, let's just pick one or the other.

569
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,180
Speaker 3: I said, because you need to have some people that

570
00:32:10,220 --> 00:32:14,810
Speaker 3: are close that you trust and listen to. Um, but

571
00:32:14,890 --> 00:32:16,990
Speaker 3: too many voices. I mean, the Bible does say in

572
00:32:17,230 --> 00:32:20,550
Speaker 3: a multitude of counselors, right? But in this case, you

573
00:32:20,650 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: actually need a smaller circle so that it's not too confusing.

574
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 3: And then people, you just, and different people are helpful

575
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,580
Speaker 3: for different, different sufferings.

576
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,020
Speaker 5: Right. Right.

577
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,140
Speaker 3: Um, if it's a health thing, maybe they've gone through

578
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 3: that before. If it's a loss of a, somebody they've

579
00:32:40,180 --> 00:32:42,580
Speaker 3: gone through that before, kind of, it doesn't have to

580
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,270
Speaker 3: always be the same people. Although in your case, Catherine,

581
00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:45,700
Speaker 3: it does.

582
00:32:46,410 --> 00:32:48,290
Speaker 2: And it is.

583
00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:51,930
Speaker 3: Because Susan and I like, like that. No, but seriously,

584
00:32:51,950 --> 00:32:53,530
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? So you kind of look

585
00:32:53,570 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: at that and you don't need a lot of people.

586
00:32:58,580 --> 00:33:00,780
Speaker 3: You just need people, like I say, that are safe.

587
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,380
Speaker 3: And then the other thing is time.

588
00:33:03,580 --> 00:33:03,650
Speaker 4: Hmm.

589
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,340
Speaker 3: There are some people say, I'll listen, but then after

590
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,030
Speaker 3: a couple weeks, a couple months, it's like, okay, I'm

591
00:33:13,050 --> 00:33:18,209
Speaker 3: done with this. Well, that's not reality. Suffering and pain

592
00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:21,930
Speaker 3: and loss can go on for a long, long time.

593
00:33:23,310 --> 00:33:26,750
Speaker 3: And so it's nice to find people that are comfortable

594
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:30,220
Speaker 3: sitting in that pain as long as you need it.

595
00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:34,980
Speaker 2: Amen to that. That is so true. And when you

596
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,300
Speaker 2: were talking about that, there may be some people that

597
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: you can lean into in the body of Christ that

598
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: they can carry some of the logistical pain of what

599
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:45,420
Speaker 2: you're going through. Like we had a kind of shocking

600
00:33:46,260 --> 00:33:49,810
Speaker 2: job loss a while ago, and there was a lot

601
00:33:49,830 --> 00:33:53,210
Speaker 2: of logistical pain to that. And there were certain people

602
00:33:53,250 --> 00:33:55,390
Speaker 2: in my circle that were really good with the logistical

603
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:58,570
Speaker 2: pain of what we were going through, the financial pain

604
00:33:58,590 --> 00:34:01,430
Speaker 2: of what we were going through, but not the emotional pain.

605
00:34:02,270 --> 00:34:07,650
Speaker 2: And so lean in, figure out, okay, this person is

606
00:34:08,050 --> 00:34:11,390
Speaker 2: really great with helping out with the kids or with

607
00:34:11,530 --> 00:34:15,859
Speaker 2: the house situation or even the financial situation. But maybe

608
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: I need the long heart-to-heart coffee talks that I need

609
00:34:20,140 --> 00:34:22,940
Speaker 2: to have to get through the emotional pain of what

610
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,030
Speaker 2: I'm going through. That may be a different circle. So

611
00:34:26,190 --> 00:34:29,250
Speaker 2: thank you for pointing that out. And recognize that when

612
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:32,930
Speaker 2: you're going through suffering. And lean into those circles. Don't

613
00:34:32,969 --> 00:34:37,290
Speaker 2: discount the logistical circles because they can't handle the emotional pain.

614
00:34:37,330 --> 00:34:40,870
Speaker 2: Those logistical circles, praise God for them. Because when you're

615
00:34:40,910 --> 00:34:43,109
Speaker 2: going through a time of suffering, sometimes you just need

616
00:34:43,130 --> 00:34:45,259
Speaker 2: somebody to come and get the kids.

617
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 3: And also as people, to recognize what is your gifting. Yes.

618
00:34:52,180 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 3: And think, okay, for example, like what you're saying, people

619
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,300
Speaker 3: that make meals.

620
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:57,180
Speaker 5: Yes.

621
00:34:57,489 --> 00:34:57,770
Speaker 2: Right? Yes.

622
00:34:58,390 --> 00:35:03,030
Speaker 3: So needed and so valuable. I will make you a meal,

623
00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:05,530
Speaker 3: but you would prefer somebody else to do it.

624
00:35:05,980 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

625
00:35:08,820 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 5: Same.

626
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: And so I.

627
00:35:10,580 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 3: Think that also that's just for, you know, recognizing what

628
00:35:14,420 --> 00:35:17,380
Speaker 3: am I good at and offering that. That's where the

629
00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 3: body comes in.

630
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:19,300
Speaker 5: Amen.

631
00:35:26,010 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: Hey friends, it's Katherine here.

632
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: If you're trying to be a godly parent in this

633
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,740
Speaker 1: wild and wacky world, you need.

634
00:35:32,620 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: All the help you can get. And I've got you covered.

635
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:39,130
Speaker 2: When you subscribe to my website, you'll get instant access

636
00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:43,050
Speaker 2: to tons of free resources made just for Christian parents.

637
00:35:43,330 --> 00:35:47,290
Speaker 2: You'll get my prodigal bundle, which is packed with every podcast, article,

638
00:35:47,410 --> 00:35:50,700
Speaker 2: and scripture list I've created for parents walking away. that

639
00:35:50,780 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 2: tough prodigal road. You'll also get my free e-book, Beyond

640
00:35:54,780 --> 00:35:56,620
Speaker 2: the Lies, uncovering five.

641
00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:58,380
Speaker 3: Myths that culture spreads to mothers.

642
00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:00,219
Speaker 1: Plus, powerful scripture lists to.

643
00:36:00,260 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: Pray over your kids and even scripture songs to help

644
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 2: your family hide God's word in your hearts without even trying.

645
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: And of course, I'll keep you encouraged with my weekly

646
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,140
Speaker 2: newsletter full of faith-filled pep talks and outlines of what

647
00:36:14,180 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: we're tackling each week on the show. So don't miss out.

648
00:36:17,219 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: Head over to.

649
00:36:19,330 --> 00:36:24,550
Speaker 1: That's katherineseegers.com and subscribe today because Christian parenting may be crazy,

650
00:36:25,070 --> 00:36:26,970
Speaker 1: but you don't have to do it alone.

651
00:36:26,989 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 2: Amen. Susan, your thoughts?

652
00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 5: I just think that knowing who your people are, like

653
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,739
Speaker 5: when you're already suffering, you really don't need an extra.

654
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:40,380
Speaker 2: Layer of judgment.

655
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 5: And so we really want to be people who understand

656
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 5: that just because somebody is wrestling or suffering through a

657
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 5: hardship doesn't necessarily mean that the core of their faith

658
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,580
Speaker 5: is at risk. And I think a lot of times people,

659
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,450
Speaker 5: when they see somebody who's wrestling, they worry about the

660
00:36:59,530 --> 00:37:02,950
Speaker 5: core of their faith. And so they're wanting to come

661
00:37:03,010 --> 00:37:07,850
Speaker 5: in and fix that. But again, it's just an area

662
00:37:07,890 --> 00:37:11,660
Speaker 5: where they're not really wanting to allow you to wrestle

663
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,950
Speaker 5: through because it kind of messes with their own theology.

664
00:37:15,110 --> 00:37:18,509
Speaker 5: It just makes it, it makes it, there's just this

665
00:37:18,690 --> 00:37:22,410
Speaker 5: unsettling that happens. And so really what you need are

666
00:37:22,450 --> 00:37:25,589
Speaker 5: people who in your circle, who are confident in what

667
00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:29,299
Speaker 5: they believe, confident that in what, in where you are

668
00:37:29,340 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 5: with the Lord and just allow the Lord to defend himself.

669
00:37:33,660 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 5: Like we don't actually have to defend God. We don't

670
00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:38,570
Speaker 5: have to defend his honor. We don't have to defend

671
00:37:38,620 --> 00:37:43,540
Speaker 5: his word. We just have to trust it. And we

672
00:37:43,580 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 5: have to allow it to be evident in our lives.

673
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,460
Speaker 5: And we also have to give it some space to

674
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,620
Speaker 5: work itself out. And I think a lot of people

675
00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 5: are uncomfortable with that.

676
00:37:54,140 --> 00:37:58,510
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that. That is so true.

677
00:37:58,530 --> 00:38:01,650
Speaker 2: I think it messes with their own theology, their own

678
00:38:01,810 --> 00:38:06,620
Speaker 2: faith to see somebody in that kind of area. And frankly...

679
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:09,980
Speaker 2: Let's just point out there are different personality types, too.

680
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: Like my husband, he doesn't have to go to the

681
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: depths of understanding that I require. And certainly not the

682
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: depths of verbal processing that I require. He will listen

683
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,260
Speaker 2: to it. He is so gracious and so patient with me.

684
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,650
Speaker 2: But he doesn't have to. He's just not hardwired in

685
00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:32,069
Speaker 2: a way where I need an answer. I need an answer.

686
00:38:32,130 --> 00:38:34,870
Speaker 2: I need to make sense of this the way that

687
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:37,469
Speaker 2: I am. Because we get in bed at night, five

688
00:38:37,489 --> 00:38:39,630
Speaker 2: minutes later, he's snoring and I'm still, you know, the

689
00:38:39,670 --> 00:38:42,230
Speaker 2: hamster wheel is still going in my brain. That's what

690
00:38:42,250 --> 00:38:46,270
Speaker 2: the two of you are for. So, but I think

691
00:38:46,350 --> 00:38:49,210
Speaker 2: it messes with some other people's theology. It doesn't mess

692
00:38:49,250 --> 00:38:51,430
Speaker 2: with his theology. It's just not a need that he,

693
00:38:51,710 --> 00:38:55,390
Speaker 2: it's not a itch he needs to scratch. I am

694
00:38:55,469 --> 00:38:58,630
Speaker 2: hardwired in such a way where I'm like, God, I've

695
00:38:58,670 --> 00:39:03,379
Speaker 2: got to make some sort of theological sense of what

696
00:39:03,489 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: is happening here. and um it's really hard when you

697
00:39:07,940 --> 00:39:09,900
Speaker 2: go to a group of people who you love and

698
00:39:10,260 --> 00:39:12,470
Speaker 2: and who are part of your circle maybe they're part

699
00:39:12,510 --> 00:39:14,529
Speaker 2: of your family and they can't handle that and you

700
00:39:14,570 --> 00:39:17,310
Speaker 2: just need to recognize where you can go and i

701
00:39:17,350 --> 00:39:19,690
Speaker 2: just want to be really vulnerable and transparent here to

702
00:39:19,950 --> 00:39:23,090
Speaker 2: to share with the audience an area where i really

703
00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 2: it was crazy i hit, I don't want to say

704
00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 2: rock bottom. I wasn't like, I was still going to

705
00:39:30,420 --> 00:39:33,700
Speaker 2: wrestle through it, but it got ugly. It got ugly.

706
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: And it was this last year. And my regular listeners

707
00:39:36,580 --> 00:39:40,819
Speaker 2: know my husband lost his job last summer and had

708
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,660
Speaker 2: to move to Nashville ahead of us. A whole year

709
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 2: ahead of us. So it was a pretty difficult year.

710
00:39:46,100 --> 00:39:48,900
Speaker 2: This was coming off of a season of a good

711
00:39:48,940 --> 00:39:51,299
Speaker 2: bit of loss. Susan, you and I have been to

712
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: all the same funerals. Yeah. And it's like, you're like, God,

713
00:39:54,940 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 2: I'm on all these prayer teams and these people keep,

714
00:39:58,140 --> 00:40:00,450
Speaker 2: you know, I want to believe and I'm praying for

715
00:40:00,489 --> 00:40:04,790
Speaker 2: these people to live. And there we are. It's another,

716
00:40:04,810 --> 00:40:07,950
Speaker 2: you know, the movie Four Weddings and a Funeral. I

717
00:40:08,290 --> 00:40:12,710
Speaker 2: think we were... The inverse of that. Did we go

718
00:40:12,730 --> 00:40:14,210
Speaker 2: to a wedding? I'm not sure. But I know we

719
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:16,610
Speaker 2: went to a lot of funerals together. You and I

720
00:40:16,670 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: were in the room with our dear friend Shane when

721
00:40:21,620 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: he passed, and you helped me. Even still, in the

722
00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: midst of all of that.

723
00:40:27,780 --> 00:40:27,860
Speaker 5: I.

724
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,950
Speaker 2: Was able to lean into the fact that I really

725
00:40:32,989 --> 00:40:36,430
Speaker 2: believe that God took him at an opportune time for

726
00:40:36,469 --> 00:40:42,750
Speaker 2: him and his faith. so here these friends are dying

727
00:40:42,810 --> 00:40:47,310
Speaker 2: around me and where did I kind of hit my

728
00:40:47,350 --> 00:40:50,629
Speaker 2: lowest point was with a couple of cats. Like, how

729
00:40:50,710 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: is this? But what happened was I've been praying for

730
00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:54,820
Speaker 2: a long time for my daughter.

731
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

732
00:40:56,580 --> 00:41:01,020
Speaker 2: My daughter, um, was struggling in her faith, was agnostic

733
00:41:01,060 --> 00:41:03,500
Speaker 2: for the better part of a year and was, you know,

734
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: kind of had a friend circle that was all struggling.

735
00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 2: And I care about all of these girls. And she

736
00:41:08,460 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: has this friend. I don't want to say her name.

737
00:41:10,620 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: I'll call her Brianna.

738
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:16,050
Speaker 4: And Brianna came just from a hard background with a

739
00:41:16,110 --> 00:41:20,690
Speaker 4: mom who was at least, at the very least, emotionally,

740
00:41:20,989 --> 00:41:23,010
Speaker 4: very severely emotionally abusive.

741
00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:27,049
Speaker 2: And here's this young girl who the one thing she

742
00:41:27,090 --> 00:41:28,770
Speaker 2: has in life, she has a heart like mine. I've

743
00:41:28,850 --> 00:41:31,939
Speaker 2: always been a huge animal lover. So she collected these

744
00:41:32,420 --> 00:41:34,540
Speaker 2: little cats. And they were the only things in life

745
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,459
Speaker 2: that really loved her unconditionally.

746
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

747
00:41:39,340 --> 00:41:42,540
Speaker 2: It was really sad and she was planning on moving out.

748
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 2: She's now roommates with my daughter, but the plan was

749
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,540
Speaker 2: to move out and to find some good homes. She

750
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: had three cats. One of them was disabled. His name

751
00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: was Derek. He had one eye and I fell in

752
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,259
Speaker 2: love with him, but I wasn't in a position to

753
00:41:55,300 --> 00:42:00,690
Speaker 2: keep him. And, um, there was another cat, uh, named Josie.

754
00:42:00,790 --> 00:42:05,290
Speaker 2: She was pregnant and it, and she was pregnant because

755
00:42:05,330 --> 00:42:07,170
Speaker 2: the mom let the cats together. They were supposed to

756
00:42:07,210 --> 00:42:11,580
Speaker 2: be apart. She was just Anyway, she said that she

757
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,650
Speaker 2: was lamenting the fact that her daughter was moving out.

758
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:17,250
Speaker 2: She wanted to exert some control. So on the coldest

759
00:42:17,290 --> 00:42:18,870
Speaker 2: night of the year, she took these cats and she

760
00:42:18,930 --> 00:42:21,670
Speaker 2: dumped them somewhere and wouldn't tell her daughter where they were.

761
00:42:21,690 --> 00:42:23,990
Speaker 2: And I'm like, good grief.

762
00:42:24,590 --> 00:42:24,930
Speaker 5: Really?

763
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: And she was begging her. Like, Brianna was begging her mother.

764
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 2: I'll pay. I'll give you money. I'll do anything. Just

765
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 2: tell me where they are. And my daughter and Brianna

766
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:37,620
Speaker 2: went out that night and they couldn't find the cats.

767
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: They couldn't find it. And we were particularly worried about

768
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,980
Speaker 2: Derek because of his eye. Let me tell you, this cat,

769
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,029
Speaker 2: like he would jump in your lap. It was the

770
00:42:46,130 --> 00:42:51,169
Speaker 2: sweetest cat I'd ever met. Well, so what happened was

771
00:42:51,230 --> 00:42:54,910
Speaker 2: Brianna came over to our house. And I was letting

772
00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 2: her stay there. And I'm like, I've been praying so

773
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: hard for these girls. And I'm just going to bring

774
00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:03,700
Speaker 2: this to the Lord right now. And I'm going to

775
00:43:03,739 --> 00:43:05,580
Speaker 2: pray publicly. I'm going to like, I'm going to be

776
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,700
Speaker 2: bold here. And so I said, girls, let's just pray.

777
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 2: Let's pray over the situation. I'm like, God, I just

778
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 2: ask you to be here in this situation. I ask

779
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: you to protect Derek and Josie and Amir. That was

780
00:43:16,739 --> 00:43:19,340
Speaker 2: the third cat. And I ask for your hand to

781
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,900
Speaker 2: be involved and that you would just cover them and

782
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,140
Speaker 2: you would send angels to protect them. And I pray, Lord,

783
00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:26,100
Speaker 2: that you would just, you know, and secretly and sign

784
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: them like, God, please show up for these girls. I've

785
00:43:27,940 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: been praying for these girls to have an encounter with you.

786
00:43:30,540 --> 00:43:32,299
Speaker 2: This seems like the perfect opportunity.

787
00:43:33,140 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 3: And it's really small, right?

788
00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:40,819
Speaker 2: It's just some cats. Well, it was a pretty fitful night,

789
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: and we found out the next morning where she had

790
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,950
Speaker 2: dropped the cats. And they went to find them, and

791
00:43:46,050 --> 00:43:49,910
Speaker 2: Derek was on the side of the road, and he

792
00:43:49,930 --> 00:43:53,350
Speaker 2: had died. He'd been hit by a car. He only

793
00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:59,670
Speaker 2: had one eye. Josie, we never found again. I don't

794
00:43:59,690 --> 00:44:01,090
Speaker 2: know where she is. I don't know what happened to

795
00:44:01,110 --> 00:44:02,870
Speaker 2: her and the kittens. And I know it's just a

796
00:44:02,910 --> 00:44:06,070
Speaker 2: couple of cats. And here I was with you, Susan,

797
00:44:06,330 --> 00:44:10,549
Speaker 2: in a hospital room watching one of our dearest friends die.

798
00:44:10,610 --> 00:44:15,109
Speaker 2: And somehow the cats brought me to this break. Because

799
00:44:15,130 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: I was like, it wasn't just the cats. It was

800
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: attached to these girls. And I wanted, I'm like, God,

801
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,660
Speaker 2: I feel like I rolled out a red carpet for you.

802
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:30,260
Speaker 2: And you didn't come. You didn't, that's how I felt.

803
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,009
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's what it is. I'm not questioning

804
00:44:33,050 --> 00:44:36,390
Speaker 2: whether God is present or he loved me, but it

805
00:44:36,430 --> 00:44:39,710
Speaker 2: didn't feel loving. I'm like, if I had the power

806
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:42,930
Speaker 2: to change this for my child, I would have, but

807
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:47,850
Speaker 2: you wouldn't do it for me and for them. So

808
00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:54,170
Speaker 2: first off, I was trying to wrestle through this. And frankly,

809
00:44:54,210 --> 00:44:55,730
Speaker 2: this one really got my husband too.

810
00:44:55,750 --> 00:44:56,870
Speaker 5: Hmm.

811
00:44:57,270 --> 00:44:59,150
Speaker 2: Shane was one of his best friends as well. But

812
00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:02,890
Speaker 2: this one, because it just was like so little in

813
00:45:02,910 --> 00:45:05,450
Speaker 2: the grand scheme of life, I wasn't asking him to

814
00:45:05,510 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: heal a terminal illness. I was asking him to protect

815
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,140
Speaker 2: a couple of cats. And Brian and I both really

816
00:45:13,260 --> 00:45:16,460
Speaker 2: struggled through this. And we pray over our kids every

817
00:45:16,540 --> 00:45:19,700
Speaker 2: single night. And sometimes if I'm sick, he will pray.

818
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,779
Speaker 2: And sometimes if he's sick, I will pray. But there

819
00:45:21,820 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 2: were a few nights that night or that week where

820
00:45:24,739 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: I wasn't physically sick, but I'm like, Brian, you got

821
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: to take it. Cause I'm, I just, I felt like

822
00:45:30,700 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: I wasn't even on speaking terms with God for a

823
00:45:32,940 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: few days. And I just want to be like, I'm

824
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,009
Speaker 2: just laying it all out there. And I realized I

825
00:45:38,030 --> 00:45:40,210
Speaker 2: may get criticism for that, but where we're going to

826
00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:42,190
Speaker 2: be going in the next episode, I think is going

827
00:45:42,210 --> 00:45:47,390
Speaker 2: to show how scripture gives us permission to do this,

828
00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: to wrestle like this. And so when I came to

829
00:45:50,940 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: the two of you, um, You sat with me. You

830
00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: grieved with me. You didn't say I was being disobedient

831
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: or disrespectful or a bad Christian. You didn't question my faith.

832
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,420
Speaker 2: You gave me the time and the space to wrestle

833
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,220
Speaker 2: through this. And I did. I still don't understand why.

834
00:46:12,570 --> 00:46:14,750
Speaker 2: But I had to come back around and say, God,

835
00:46:14,850 --> 00:46:21,529
Speaker 2: somehow in your sovereignty, I choose to trust you. that

836
00:46:21,570 --> 00:46:25,350
Speaker 2: you have a good reason for this, that you love

837
00:46:25,390 --> 00:46:28,549
Speaker 2: these girls more than I do, that you are going

838
00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:30,530
Speaker 2: to show up in a big way in their lives.

839
00:46:30,590 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: And maybe, maybe, maybe Brianna just needed to see a

840
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 2: mom who cared that much about what she cared about

841
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:44,490
Speaker 2: because she doesn't have that. And maybe she needed to

842
00:46:44,530 --> 00:46:48,029
Speaker 2: see a mom who weeps with what she weeps over.

843
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: because she is a God who weeps with what she

844
00:46:51,620 --> 00:46:57,350
Speaker 2: weeps over. Anyways, that's the kind of wrestling that you

845
00:46:57,390 --> 00:47:01,250
Speaker 2: need to have an inner circle to talk with. And

846
00:47:01,290 --> 00:47:03,629
Speaker 2: you guys were it for me. And you never once

847
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:06,850
Speaker 2: made me feel, and there were others that really did

848
00:47:06,930 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: make me feel like this, this wrestling was disrespectful or

849
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:19,940
Speaker 2: insubordinate or, or unchristian, unchristlike. Um, Stay tuned to the

850
00:47:19,980 --> 00:47:24,180
Speaker 2: next episode because we'll show how it's all in Scripture. But, Erin,

851
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 2: just anything. You were there with me through all of

852
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,299
Speaker 2: this moment. Or share one of your own stories. You're

853
00:47:30,340 --> 00:47:35,260
Speaker 2: welcome to share your thoughts on that kind of wrestling.

854
00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:36,299
Speaker 5: I'm sorry.

855
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: I always do this. I start to throw a question

856
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,589
Speaker 2: and then I keep going on. It's one of my

857
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,730
Speaker 2: ADD things, which I'll put up with. Laughter through tears.

858
00:47:45,790 --> 00:47:48,690
Speaker 2: Isn't that out of Steel Magnolias? We're each other's Steel Magnolias,

859
00:47:48,730 --> 00:47:52,569
Speaker 2: aren't we? But it just, the depth and the breadth

860
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,379
Speaker 2: of the suffering can sometimes lead other people to really

861
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,210
Speaker 2: question your faith in ways, and they can't handle it.

862
00:47:58,300 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: But you guys can, and thank you for that. Thank

863
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,259
Speaker 2: you for being here and reliving it all with me again.

864
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:09,990
Speaker 3: Well, I love what Susan said. You know, people want

865
00:48:10,010 --> 00:48:13,049
Speaker 3: to fix it to make it so that God fits

866
00:48:13,110 --> 00:48:13,650
Speaker 3: in a bowl.

867
00:48:14,430 --> 00:48:14,669
Speaker 5: Yeah.

868
00:48:14,989 --> 00:48:16,870
Speaker 3: But we don't know.

869
00:48:18,469 --> 00:48:23,009
Speaker 3: What the Lord is doing. We don't know. And so

870
00:48:23,090 --> 00:48:28,469
Speaker 3: when we sit with people in pain, I think sometimes it's,

871
00:48:28,710 --> 00:48:34,180
Speaker 3: it's a, it's a discipline to not try to fix

872
00:48:34,260 --> 00:48:36,370
Speaker 3: it and to not try to say, this is why. And,

873
00:48:38,140 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 3: you know, I have a client right now going through

874
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:47,529
Speaker 3: something and I I think in our last session, I,

875
00:48:47,810 --> 00:48:49,529
Speaker 3: I think I have to apologize. I don't think I

876
00:48:49,550 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 3: did a good job because it was so, it was

877
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,219
Speaker 3: so painful. And I, I mean, I, I don't think

878
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 3: I went too far, but it was hard for me

879
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,860
Speaker 3: to sit in it and not want to try to

880
00:49:05,980 --> 00:49:11,410
Speaker 3: explain why this happened. So I just confess that to say,

881
00:49:12,170 --> 00:49:16,870
Speaker 3: you know, it's, it's hard. It's hard to sit with

882
00:49:16,910 --> 00:49:19,430
Speaker 3: people's pain as well. So just grace there. And I

883
00:49:19,489 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 3: will go back. to this client and just say, I

884
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 3: think I was wrong and I'm sorry. You know, when

885
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,450
Speaker 3: a person, I think you said too, when a person

886
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:32,110
Speaker 3: is hurting, you weren't, you were hurting over the cats.

887
00:49:32,890 --> 00:49:35,810
Speaker 3: You were hurting over your daughter. You were hurting over

888
00:49:35,870 --> 00:49:39,660
Speaker 3: the deaths. You were hurting over the loss. And, That's

889
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:45,260
Speaker 3: the other thing, too, is that the pain is, like,

890
00:49:45,460 --> 00:49:50,549
Speaker 3: it's related to these other pieces. And so that's where

891
00:49:50,570 --> 00:49:52,910
Speaker 3: it sort of has to be processed, too, you know.

892
00:49:52,930 --> 00:49:55,150
Speaker 3: I don't know if that really answers your question.

893
00:49:57,010 --> 00:49:58,550
Speaker 2: I don't know if I had a question.

894
00:49:59,550 --> 00:50:01,890
Speaker 3: But just as I think about it, I just think,

895
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,180
Speaker 3: you know, we don't always do it perfectly.

896
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,820
Speaker 2: Mm-mm. But you guys, you just let me have that space.

897
00:50:11,219 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 2: And I always want to let you guys have that space.

898
00:50:14,140 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 2: I feel like y'all are always processing my issues more.

899
00:50:17,390 --> 00:50:20,489
Speaker 2: I'm such a verbal processor. I think y'all help me

900
00:50:20,550 --> 00:50:23,169
Speaker 2: way more than I help you. I'm pretty sure.

901
00:50:23,350 --> 00:50:27,750
Speaker 3: And one more thing I liked. I loved your understanding

902
00:50:27,790 --> 00:50:32,470
Speaker 3: of Brian's role. And I think that's a good piece

903
00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:36,589
Speaker 3: for people to hear. Because we sometimes put too much

904
00:50:36,750 --> 00:50:41,729
Speaker 3: pressure on our spouse or family members that we think

905
00:50:41,810 --> 00:50:42,489
Speaker 3: should help us.

906
00:50:43,070 --> 00:50:43,330
Speaker 5: Right?

907
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 3: You're my sister. You're my mother. You should help us.

908
00:50:46,510 --> 00:50:49,489
Speaker 3: And I love that you were able to recognize who

909
00:50:49,570 --> 00:50:53,509
Speaker 3: he was and know that you needed to go to others,

910
00:50:54,050 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 3: you know, as well. But anyway, Susan, what's your thought?

911
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 5: I think that when we are in a season where

912
00:50:59,820 --> 00:51:02,580
Speaker 5: it just feels like loss after loss after loss and

913
00:51:02,660 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 5: hardship after hardship after hardship, or just whatever the struggle is,

914
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,460
Speaker 5: you know, and you just wonder, oh, am I ever

915
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:11,259
Speaker 5: going to get out of these things? And some of

916
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,100
Speaker 5: them are very permanent, like with death and with other

917
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,260
Speaker 5: things and job losses and just all of these little things.

918
00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:22,379
Speaker 5: And they're so big and they're so important. And you

919
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,420
Speaker 5: want to pray and you want to be honorable with

920
00:51:24,460 --> 00:51:28,660
Speaker 5: the Lord. And you want to have that experience that says, God,

921
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 5: I trust you in these things. I trust you to

922
00:51:31,739 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 5: be in the big picture. You know, but oftentimes I

923
00:51:34,580 --> 00:51:37,509
Speaker 5: think that the enemy knows that. And so what he

924
00:51:37,590 --> 00:51:40,910
Speaker 5: does is he brings in those little things. He brings

925
00:51:41,010 --> 00:51:45,670
Speaker 5: in the cat situation. And then it just, as a Christian,

926
00:51:45,870 --> 00:51:48,410
Speaker 5: it's just like, it kind of brings us to that

927
00:51:48,630 --> 00:51:52,410
Speaker 5: breaking point of like, are you kidding?

928
00:51:52,770 --> 00:51:55,690
Speaker 2: It's the straw. It's the straw that broke the camel's

929
00:51:55,810 --> 00:51:58,690
Speaker 2: back right there. Yes. And it also is like, it's

930
00:51:58,730 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 2: something that really doesn't matter.

931
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 5: But yet it's so important. And that's the place where

932
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 5: we can just be like, OK, fine, whatever. I'm just

933
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,779
Speaker 5: really irritated by this because it almost feels like it's

934
00:52:11,860 --> 00:52:12,779
Speaker 5: so insignificant.

935
00:52:12,820 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 2: It shouldn't matter.

936
00:52:13,660 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 5: I can't really, you know, the average theology says, well,

937
00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:18,500
Speaker 5: I have to trust God in the timing of people's

938
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,460
Speaker 5: lives or I have to trust God.

939
00:52:20,219 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 2: In the bigger things.

940
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,100
Speaker 5: And really, I've learned that the question that we're always

941
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 5: coming back to is, is God good? and is he

942
00:52:30,660 --> 00:52:33,899
Speaker 5: good to me and will he be good to my

943
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 5: children yes you know and so when we look at

944
00:52:37,380 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 5: these things i mean is god good yes he is

945
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,090
Speaker 5: good is he good to me yes he's good to

946
00:52:42,140 --> 00:52:44,049
Speaker 5: me he provides he does all these things is he

947
00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:46,330
Speaker 5: good to my children i don't know my kid my

948
00:52:46,370 --> 00:52:49,210
Speaker 5: kid is hurting right and that's the place where as

949
00:52:49,250 --> 00:52:52,830
Speaker 5: a mom we're just like so vulnerable and we want

950
00:52:53,390 --> 00:52:55,710
Speaker 5: our kids to have the encounters with god we want

951
00:52:55,790 --> 00:52:58,370
Speaker 5: our kids to be walking with god to be strong

952
00:52:58,410 --> 00:53:00,549
Speaker 5: in their faith and to You know, and.

953
00:53:00,510 --> 00:53:03,470
Speaker 2: The world is so cruel right now. And we just

954
00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:05,270
Speaker 2: want God to have like a touch of goodness.

955
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:09,650
Speaker 5: And that's the place where we just become unraveled because

956
00:53:09,710 --> 00:53:12,859
Speaker 5: we are like, it was so small. You could have

957
00:53:12,910 --> 00:53:17,339
Speaker 5: done something better. But we fail to see that God

958
00:53:17,380 --> 00:53:19,540
Speaker 5: has a bigger picture. He's working out these things in

959
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 5: our own kids' lives. And we don't know how they've

960
00:53:23,460 --> 00:53:26,020
Speaker 5: been praying and how they've been wrestling and how maybe

961
00:53:26,060 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 5: they've even just been ignoring or walking away.

962
00:53:28,460 --> 00:53:31,049
Speaker 2: And he's trying. to draw. He's trying to get their

963
00:53:31,070 --> 00:53:33,730
Speaker 2: attention and he's trying to do something different. And I

964
00:53:34,489 --> 00:53:34,890
Speaker 2: don't know.

965
00:53:34,910 --> 00:53:38,050
Speaker 5: I mean, the wrestle is real. The pain is real,

966
00:53:38,670 --> 00:53:41,069
Speaker 5: but I often think it's the little things that kind of,

967
00:53:41,370 --> 00:53:44,069
Speaker 5: you know, where people are just like, oh, I've tried God.

968
00:53:44,430 --> 00:53:46,250
Speaker 5: It was just this and he didn't.

969
00:53:46,510 --> 00:53:49,590
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. It was like, it was, it's like, okay,

970
00:53:49,670 --> 00:53:51,950
Speaker 2: so I've been to all these funerals. I prayed that

971
00:53:51,989 --> 00:53:53,830
Speaker 2: all of these people would live, but this was just

972
00:53:54,210 --> 00:53:56,830
Speaker 2: it was just so small God and but and yet

973
00:53:56,850 --> 00:53:59,470
Speaker 2: it was important to the people that are so important

974
00:53:59,510 --> 00:54:02,330
Speaker 2: to me and to God and like don't you want

975
00:54:02,370 --> 00:54:05,670
Speaker 2: to show up for them and I'm not saying that

976
00:54:05,710 --> 00:54:08,290
Speaker 2: he didn't but it felt like that right and and

977
00:54:08,489 --> 00:54:10,700
Speaker 2: that's all the perspective I have and he knows that

978
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 2: I'm dust he knows that I'm human and you guys

979
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,839
Speaker 2: allow me to be human yeah yeah well and we

980
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,410
Speaker 2: have to recognize too that It's in those small moments

981
00:54:21,450 --> 00:54:24,049
Speaker 2: where we have to remind ourselves, yes, God really does

982
00:54:24,090 --> 00:54:25,910
Speaker 2: care about that cat. He really does.

983
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:30,330
Speaker 5: Scripture talks about how there isn't a sparrow that falls

984
00:54:30,370 --> 00:54:32,090
Speaker 5: to the ground without God being aware.

985
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:35,550
Speaker 2: He knows. But I don't always know.

986
00:54:35,489 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 5: Why he chooses to do what he does and chooses

987
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,420
Speaker 5: to not do what he doesn't do.

988
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 2: And there's a huge question.

989
00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 5: There's a lot of debates. But it really comes down to...

990
00:54:47,590 --> 00:54:50,800
Speaker 5: a few really anchoring scriptures. And we talked about the one,

991
00:54:50,930 --> 00:54:54,210
Speaker 5: you know, where else do we go? You have the

992
00:54:54,250 --> 00:54:56,989
Speaker 5: words of life. Like, I'm not going to go anywhere else.

993
00:54:57,230 --> 00:54:59,989
Speaker 5: But there's also that scripture that says, Lord, I do believe,

994
00:55:00,070 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 5: but help my unbelief. Like, I believe that you can

995
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 5: do all things, but in this one particular situation, I

996
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 5: really need you to come through.

997
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 2: And I don't know what you're going to do, but

998
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:09,740
Speaker 2: help my unbelief.

999
00:55:10,340 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 5: You know, help me here in this space where I

1000
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,370
Speaker 5: might really be questioning what you're doing. But, you know,

1001
00:55:16,430 --> 00:55:20,230
Speaker 5: when that father of the little epileptic boy in Mark

1002
00:55:20,230 --> 00:55:24,950
Speaker 5: 9 talked about that, and Jesus was talking to the father,

1003
00:55:25,210 --> 00:55:27,810
Speaker 5: you know, of the little boy, not to the little

1004
00:55:27,830 --> 00:55:29,910
Speaker 5: boy who was convulsing in front of him. He was

1005
00:55:29,950 --> 00:55:33,580
Speaker 5: talking to the father. And when the man said, I

1006
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,420
Speaker 5: do believe, help me unbelieve, Jesus didn't criticize him.

1007
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:37,140
Speaker 3: Right.

1008
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:43,620
Speaker 5: You know, he addressed that deeper need. And then he

1009
00:55:43,660 --> 00:55:46,109
Speaker 5: healed the boy. you know, and then he moves. So

1010
00:55:46,260 --> 00:55:49,049
Speaker 5: I'm always saying that when things don't work out the

1011
00:55:49,090 --> 00:55:51,450
Speaker 5: way I want to, I'm hoping that God is dealing

1012
00:55:51,489 --> 00:55:54,509
Speaker 5: with those areas in me that need to be worked out.

1013
00:55:55,210 --> 00:55:58,290
Speaker 5: And then he's going to do whatever it is.

1014
00:55:58,810 --> 00:56:02,230
Speaker 2: That it was so crazy because it was the season

1015
00:56:02,270 --> 00:56:04,630
Speaker 2: of nose, nose, nose to all the things I was praying.

1016
00:56:05,190 --> 00:56:08,180
Speaker 2: And to the point where I'm, I'll just share with

1017
00:56:08,219 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: the audience. I kind of laughingly said, don't put me

1018
00:56:10,140 --> 00:56:12,989
Speaker 2: on your prayer team. Cause I felt like I had

1019
00:56:13,070 --> 00:56:16,650
Speaker 2: so many no's. Of course I'm going to keep praying

1020
00:56:16,690 --> 00:56:20,630
Speaker 2: and I do. I pray. I'm such a fierce advocate

1021
00:56:20,670 --> 00:56:23,469
Speaker 2: for prayer. I'm so passionate about prayer. We've moved to

1022
00:56:23,590 --> 00:56:26,359
Speaker 2: a new state and I'm not on a prayer team

1023
00:56:26,390 --> 00:56:28,180
Speaker 2: at my church anymore. And I'm like, I was just,

1024
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 2: I've been missing it cause I believe so much in prayer.

1025
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 2: And yet I felt like I was so beaten down

1026
00:56:34,060 --> 00:56:36,739
Speaker 2: and it was, it was the, straw that broke the

1027
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:41,089
Speaker 2: camel's back. And so you guys were the ones that

1028
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:43,730
Speaker 2: allowed me to be in that place and didn't judge me.

1029
00:56:43,770 --> 00:56:47,060
Speaker 2: You didn't judge me for it. And I wanted to

1030
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,140
Speaker 2: share that example because I think there's some in our

1031
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,210
Speaker 2: audience would be like, well... you know, you guys, you know,

1032
00:56:53,350 --> 00:56:55,549
Speaker 2: you probably don't struggle with the same kind of stuff

1033
00:56:55,570 --> 00:56:58,070
Speaker 2: that we do and silly stuff or these things. And

1034
00:56:58,090 --> 00:57:00,609
Speaker 2: I'm like this. And it was, it was silly, but

1035
00:57:00,630 --> 00:57:03,029
Speaker 2: it was, it was, it's seeming, it's not silly. It

1036
00:57:03,090 --> 00:57:07,370
Speaker 2: was seemingly insignificant, but that was, that was the part

1037
00:57:07,390 --> 00:57:09,810
Speaker 2: that hurt so much was that it was like, it

1038
00:57:09,830 --> 00:57:11,370
Speaker 2: was so little, what would have.

1039
00:57:11,310 --> 00:57:12,750
Speaker 3: Cost him nothing.

1040
00:57:12,810 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 2: And we're going to get to in the next episode,

1041
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,580
Speaker 2: a portion of scripture that literally like, I can't believe

1042
00:57:17,620 --> 00:57:20,610
Speaker 2: how much it mirrors so much of, of the struggling

1043
00:57:20,650 --> 00:57:23,430
Speaker 2: I know that I've had, but we're getting towards the

1044
00:57:23,650 --> 00:57:25,530
Speaker 2: end of this one. So I think what we're going

1045
00:57:25,550 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 2: to do is we're going to leave the other three

1046
00:57:26,780 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 2: things we leave into and lean into in the next episode,

1047
00:57:30,740 --> 00:57:34,180
Speaker 2: because I think there's something we do need to talk about.

1048
00:57:34,660 --> 00:57:41,300
Speaker 2: That's important. What is the difference between healthy wrestling and

1049
00:57:41,380 --> 00:57:44,970
Speaker 2: losing hope? Because I think there is a line you

1050
00:57:45,010 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 2: can cross and, At some point, and people have crossed it,

1051
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,140
Speaker 2: and usually when people leave the faith, it's not over

1052
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:56,770
Speaker 2: some big theological issue or philosophical issue, or they just

1053
00:57:56,910 --> 00:58:01,310
Speaker 2: finally got convinced from some scientific argument that, well, God

1054
00:58:01,350 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: can't exist or I can't prove it enough, and so

1055
00:58:03,940 --> 00:58:06,580
Speaker 2: therefore the preponderance of the evidence is somewhere else. It's

1056
00:58:06,620 --> 00:58:11,140
Speaker 2: not those issues. It's usually something deeply personal and impacting.

1057
00:58:12,070 --> 00:58:14,830
Speaker 2: And so let's lean into that in our final moments

1058
00:58:14,930 --> 00:58:18,709
Speaker 2: here to talk about the difference between healthy wrestling and

1059
00:58:19,250 --> 00:58:22,169
Speaker 2: losing hope. And some people may get to that place

1060
00:58:22,190 --> 00:58:25,490
Speaker 2: where you feel like you have completely lost hope. And

1061
00:58:25,530 --> 00:58:28,750
Speaker 2: I understand that Susan's going to borrow the Bible. So

1062
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:32,890
Speaker 2: I know we're going someplace good now. Erin, what are

1063
00:58:32,910 --> 00:58:35,430
Speaker 2: your thoughts on that? Because I'm sure you see this

1064
00:58:35,450 --> 00:58:38,170
Speaker 2: a lot in your counseling practice. And maybe, you know, we're...

1065
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 2: not just losing hope in your faith or Christianity, but

1066
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 2: just losing hope in general. This is never going to

1067
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 2: get better. This is always going to be this way.

1068
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 2: So what's the difference between those things?

1069
00:59:00,630 --> 00:59:06,190
Speaker 3: So wrestling is a process. So I think that it's

1070
00:59:06,270 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 3: normal to see some back and forth as well. It's

1071
00:59:10,340 --> 00:59:14,770
Speaker 3: not a straight line, you know, and so you might like,

1072
00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:17,270
Speaker 3: I loved how you said, I'm not praying, Brian, you

1073
00:59:17,290 --> 00:59:21,370
Speaker 3: have to take it tonight. To me, that is healthy

1074
00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 3: and right. You're being honest with your feelings, but you

1075
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:28,140
Speaker 3: actually still leaned into God. You just let somebody else

1076
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 3: do it.

1077
00:59:29,260 --> 00:59:31,810
Speaker 2: Yes, that is what I did. Thank you for pointing

1078
00:59:31,850 --> 00:59:33,850
Speaker 2: that out because I kind of felt a little bad

1079
00:59:33,870 --> 00:59:36,810
Speaker 2: about that. But I just I needed him to take

1080
00:59:36,910 --> 00:59:40,250
Speaker 2: the lead because he was in a he wasn't in

1081
00:59:40,270 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 2: a great place. It really hurt him, too, because he

1082
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 2: saw what it did to the girls. And and he

1083
00:59:46,380 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 2: really was confused by it as well. But I was

1084
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,700
Speaker 2: able he was doing a little better than I was.

1085
00:59:51,740 --> 00:59:53,010
Speaker 2: So I leaned into him.

1086
00:59:53,450 --> 00:59:56,390
Speaker 3: Well, and the next night he might have leaned into you.

1087
00:59:57,330 --> 01:00:00,340
Speaker 3: That's the beauty. But you both went to the Lord.

1088
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,100
Speaker 3: And then I think about the scripture that says, even

1089
01:00:03,140 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 3: when we're faithless, God is faithful. And so I think,

1090
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,380
Speaker 3: and Susan, I think mentioned that, you know, the Lord

1091
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:16,210
Speaker 3: understands us. He understands our plight. He understands the human heart.

1092
01:00:16,790 --> 01:00:22,189
Speaker 3: He understands suffering. And he is not judging. We kind

1093
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:24,950
Speaker 3: of think, oh, you dropped off there.

1094
01:00:24,990 --> 01:00:25,470
Speaker 2: You're done.

1095
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:26,189
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

1096
01:00:26,290 --> 01:00:26,610
Speaker 5: Whereas.

1097
01:00:27,230 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 3: He's long-suffering, and He carries us when we can't carry ourselves.

1098
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:37,940
Speaker 3: So I think healthy wrestling keeps coming back to God.

1099
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,780
Speaker 3: And it's healthy even to go, I'm not talking to you.

1100
01:00:41,070 --> 01:00:43,550
Speaker 3: You're still acknowledging God, right?

1101
01:00:43,570 --> 01:00:46,250
Speaker 2: You're still acknowledging, but you're just like.

1102
01:00:46,390 --> 01:00:53,430
Speaker 3: So I think healthy wrestling continues to engage with the Lord,

1103
01:00:53,860 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 3: however that looks. and keeps coming and keeps turning back

1104
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 3: to him. Unhealthy is when we begin to take a

1105
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 3: heart somewhere else. And what I mean by that is

1106
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 3: potentially an addiction or alcohol or something else that soothes

1107
01:01:13,620 --> 01:01:18,260
Speaker 3: or we harden our heart. And there's a difference between

1108
01:01:18,300 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 3: a hard heart and a hurt heart.

1109
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 5: Right.

1110
01:01:23,100 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 3: That is kind of what I would say. And then

1111
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:26,900
Speaker 3: I just wanted to go back and say, too, that

1112
01:01:27,020 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 3: our life is made of small moments. So there's nothing

1113
01:01:32,180 --> 01:01:36,860
Speaker 3: small because some of our greatest answers to prayer are simple.

1114
01:01:38,050 --> 01:01:39,710
Speaker 3: You know, so I think that makes sense, too. And

1115
01:01:39,730 --> 01:01:43,090
Speaker 3: I think as people, that's another thing I notice in

1116
01:01:43,790 --> 01:01:46,850
Speaker 3: counseling is that we will judge a pain.

1117
01:01:47,630 --> 01:01:47,870
Speaker 2: Yep.

1118
01:01:48,650 --> 01:01:48,930
Speaker 5: Right.

1119
01:01:49,310 --> 01:01:51,530
Speaker 3: OK, that's a big pain. You have a right to

1120
01:01:51,570 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 3: feel bad. That's not a big pain. You should be

1121
01:01:55,240 --> 01:02:00,190
Speaker 3: over it. But that's not how the Lord works. It's, it's, um,

1122
01:02:00,550 --> 01:02:03,530
Speaker 3: what are you, you know, he's personal to our suffering.

1123
01:02:03,550 --> 01:02:05,410
Speaker 3: I remember one time a friend of mine, we were

1124
01:02:05,450 --> 01:02:09,510
Speaker 3: sitting in church and they were talking about some suffering.

1125
01:02:09,550 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 3: I can't remember exactly what, but if you're hurting to

1126
01:02:11,820 --> 01:02:15,580
Speaker 3: stand up. And I said to her, I said, stand up,

1127
01:02:15,620 --> 01:02:17,580
Speaker 3: you know, because she was going through something. And her

1128
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 3: answer was, well, it's not as bad as what that

1129
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 3: person's going through.

1130
01:02:21,950 --> 01:02:24,210
Speaker 2: Yes, I do that all the time.

1131
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:28,169
Speaker 3: And I was like, you know what? This isn't a competition.

1132
01:02:29,650 --> 01:02:33,209
Speaker 3: This is an honest relationship and God cares. You're where

1133
01:02:33,270 --> 01:02:37,630
Speaker 3: you're at suffering with what you're suffering and it matters.

1134
01:02:37,730 --> 01:02:42,250
Speaker 3: So stand up. So I think that too is important

1135
01:02:42,350 --> 01:02:48,050
Speaker 3: that we don't judge people's suffering because we don't know

1136
01:02:48,150 --> 01:02:49,610
Speaker 3: what's going on inside.

1137
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:54,250
Speaker 2: No. Well, and I think too, that wrestling with God

1138
01:02:54,270 --> 01:02:55,910
Speaker 2: is fine.

1139
01:02:56,270 --> 01:02:59,470
Speaker 5: You know, I, I want to take the hard questions

1140
01:02:59,510 --> 01:03:02,090
Speaker 5: in life and I want to, I want to ask God, Hey,

1141
01:03:02,130 --> 01:03:03,850
Speaker 5: what's your, what are your thoughts on here?

1142
01:03:03,970 --> 01:03:06,530
Speaker 2: What are you doing? How are you working this out?

1143
01:03:07,870 --> 01:03:11,050
Speaker 5: Rather than being like, okay, I can't trust you anymore.

1144
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:14,010
Speaker 5: I would much rather wrestle with God than walk away

1145
01:03:14,050 --> 01:03:16,610
Speaker 5: from God. You know, I'm just not going to do that.

1146
01:03:17,310 --> 01:03:19,370
Speaker 5: Because where else am I going to go? First of all,

1147
01:03:19,830 --> 01:03:22,430
Speaker 5: And then the other scripture that I love so much,

1148
01:03:22,590 --> 01:03:25,270
Speaker 5: and it's in Zechariah 12, 9, and I wanted to

1149
01:03:25,310 --> 01:03:28,950
Speaker 5: make sure I had the right scripture reference. It says,

1150
01:03:29,830 --> 01:03:34,050
Speaker 5: this basic overall thing that's happening in this time is when,

1151
01:03:34,650 --> 01:03:36,550
Speaker 5: you know, the Israelites have been at war.

1152
01:03:36,970 --> 01:03:38,430
Speaker 2: They've been held captive.

1153
01:03:38,470 --> 01:03:41,310
Speaker 5: They've been all of these different things, you know, and

1154
01:03:41,330 --> 01:03:43,990
Speaker 5: they're right at the edge of things shifting. And it

1155
01:03:44,090 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 5: says in Zechariah 12, 9, return to your fortress, O

1156
01:03:48,660 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 5: prisoners of hope. And I think that that describes me

1157
01:03:52,980 --> 01:04:00,190
Speaker 5: so often. I just perpetually hope. I trust God is

1158
01:04:00,230 --> 01:04:03,390
Speaker 5: going to do these things. And my hope is in

1159
01:04:03,410 --> 01:04:07,750
Speaker 5: the finished work of the cross. My hope is in Jesus.

1160
01:04:08,550 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 5: And sometimes my life doesn't look like that that's where

1161
01:04:13,740 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 5: my hope is. But I have to keep returning there.

1162
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,010
Speaker 5: I have to return and understand that no matter what

1163
01:04:20,050 --> 01:04:22,430
Speaker 5: else there is, I am a prisoner of hope. I

1164
01:04:22,610 --> 01:04:26,010
Speaker 5: am always hoping and trusting that God is going to

1165
01:04:26,250 --> 01:04:30,380
Speaker 5: do something in the big things, but mostly in the

1166
01:04:30,420 --> 01:04:30,980
Speaker 5: little things.

1167
01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 2: Like I want that. And I, sometimes I feel like that.

1168
01:04:35,140 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 5: Sometimes I feel like I live as a prisoner of hope.

1169
01:04:39,780 --> 01:04:43,980
Speaker 2: You know, I, that's why, that's why you're in my

1170
01:04:44,100 --> 01:04:47,370
Speaker 2: inner circle because you're always so positive. Both of you

1171
01:04:47,470 --> 01:04:51,020
Speaker 2: are actually, but it, Sometimes I feel y'all are the

1172
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 2: hope and I'm the prisoner. Sometimes I feel like in

1173
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 2: those seasons of suffering, but I love that a prisoner

1174
01:04:57,860 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 2: of hope. We, we always come back to hope and

1175
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:05,260
Speaker 2: you actually leaned into the next thing we need to

1176
01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:07,690
Speaker 2: lean into. So I'll tease that out. You were talking

1177
01:05:07,710 --> 01:05:10,770
Speaker 2: a little bit earlier. I'm always trusting in the, the

1178
01:05:10,810 --> 01:05:12,790
Speaker 2: goodness of God, that God's going to be good to me,

1179
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:14,470
Speaker 2: that he is good. He's going to be good to

1180
01:05:14,510 --> 01:05:16,650
Speaker 2: me and he's going to be good to my children

1181
01:05:16,670 --> 01:05:18,690
Speaker 2: and And that's the next thing we need to lean

1182
01:05:18,750 --> 01:05:21,390
Speaker 2: into that we'll pick up in the next episode. Three

1183
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:23,170
Speaker 2: other things we're going to lean into, but the first

1184
01:05:23,250 --> 01:05:26,870
Speaker 2: one is God's character. We have to lean into his

1185
01:05:27,090 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 2: character in those moments. So any final thoughts you have, Erin,

1186
01:05:32,820 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 2: before we wrap this one up and we'll pick it

1187
01:05:35,100 --> 01:05:38,990
Speaker 2: back up and finish this conversation. First off, before, see,

1188
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:41,020
Speaker 2: I did it again. I started to ask you a

1189
01:05:41,020 --> 01:05:44,180
Speaker 2: question and then I interrupted myself. Couldn't grieve. Sorry, but

1190
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:45,620
Speaker 2: I just want to, I think we both want to

1191
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 2: commend Susan here. Is this your first podcast?

1192
01:05:48,450 --> 01:05:48,780
Speaker 5: Yes.

1193
01:05:49,090 --> 01:05:54,210
Speaker 2: Is she not a pro? Hear me. Standing ovation, even

1194
01:05:54,230 --> 01:05:57,130
Speaker 2: though we're sitting down, we're standing in our hearts. Your

1195
01:05:57,210 --> 01:06:02,010
Speaker 2: insights and you're just so incredible, like incredible. I'm so

1196
01:06:02,050 --> 01:06:04,090
Speaker 2: in awe of both of you. We easily have a

1197
01:06:04,130 --> 01:06:05,990
Speaker 2: conversation with the two of you, no matter.

1198
01:06:05,810 --> 01:06:06,370
Speaker 5: What we're doing.

1199
01:06:06,550 --> 01:06:08,220
Speaker 2: I know, this is going to have to be a thing,

1200
01:06:08,260 --> 01:06:12,500
Speaker 2: you guys. It's going to, because there's some theological topics

1201
01:06:12,540 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 2: that I would really love to wrestle through on the show,

1202
01:06:15,220 --> 01:06:17,540
Speaker 2: because we do it all the time, right? Did you

1203
01:06:17,580 --> 01:06:18,980
Speaker 2: see this? What do you think of that? What do

1204
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,620
Speaker 2: you think of this book? We're always going back, but

1205
01:06:21,900 --> 01:06:23,660
Speaker 2: I think this needs to be a thing, the three

1206
01:06:23,700 --> 01:06:25,470
Speaker 2: of us, on the show. I think we're going to

1207
01:06:25,490 --> 01:06:27,830
Speaker 2: have to come back and hash out other topics as well.

1208
01:06:28,130 --> 01:06:30,810
Speaker 2: But anyway, any final thoughts, Erin? I'm actually going to

1209
01:06:30,830 --> 01:06:33,190
Speaker 2: throw it to you this time. Yeah, no.

1210
01:06:33,550 --> 01:06:36,950
Speaker 3: I think that we have said, well, God is, I

1211
01:06:37,010 --> 01:06:40,470
Speaker 3: love that Prisoner of Hope, and I love that when

1212
01:06:40,510 --> 01:06:44,870
Speaker 3: we are faithless, he is faithful. And that the point

1213
01:06:44,990 --> 01:06:50,890
Speaker 3: of suffering is to draw us closer to him and

1214
01:06:50,910 --> 01:06:55,660
Speaker 3: to get a good eye on what really matters. And

1215
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 3: we're going to live with questions. Not everything's going to

1216
01:06:59,220 --> 01:07:02,700
Speaker 3: be answered. Because as Susan said, the hope is the

1217
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,460
Speaker 3: cross and the hope is this isn't the end. This

1218
01:07:06,540 --> 01:07:10,050
Speaker 3: life isn't the end. The better is yet to come.

1219
01:07:11,050 --> 01:07:14,990
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Well said, Erin. There we go. Well, we

1220
01:07:15,010 --> 01:07:17,190
Speaker 2: will pick this back up and dig into three other

1221
01:07:17,270 --> 01:07:19,210
Speaker 2: things that we need to lean into when we're going

1222
01:07:19,230 --> 01:07:22,130
Speaker 2: through a season of suffering with the ladies who have

1223
01:07:22,190 --> 01:07:23,090
Speaker 2: walked me through it all.

1224
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:29,210
Speaker 1: If this conversation helped you today, I want to encourage

1225
01:07:29,250 --> 01:07:31,550
Speaker 1: you to share it with a friend who might need

1226
01:07:31,670 --> 01:07:34,390
Speaker 1: to hear it too. So Susan has a young woman

1227
01:07:34,410 --> 01:07:36,410
Speaker 1: who is a friend and she told her what we

1228
01:07:36,430 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: were going to be talking about in this episode about

1229
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 1: wrestling with God through the things that he allows in

1230
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,220
Speaker 1: this life. And she said, oh my goodness, I was

1231
01:07:45,260 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 1: just talking with a group of women about this and

1232
01:07:47,060 --> 01:07:50,020
Speaker 1: they were telling me, no, you can't wrestle with God.

1233
01:07:50,100 --> 01:07:52,700
Speaker 1: You just have to accept what happens in life and

1234
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,510
Speaker 1: trust that he is sovereign and All the things I

1235
01:07:55,550 --> 01:07:58,390
Speaker 1: said in the beginning, and she really was so excited

1236
01:07:58,430 --> 01:08:00,230
Speaker 1: that we were going to be talking about this. Our

1237
01:08:00,410 --> 01:08:03,100
Speaker 1: other Bible study, the one that Susan and I are

1238
01:08:03,220 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: in together, one of.

1239
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 2: The ladies there asked what we were going to be

1240
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:09,820
Speaker 2: talking about. And I told her, and she said, Can.

1241
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,770
Speaker 3: I be in your studio audience? I'm like.

1242
01:08:13,470 --> 01:08:15,530
Speaker 2: I don't have one of those yet, but who knows?

1243
01:08:15,630 --> 01:08:18,870
Speaker 2: Maybe we will now that we are in the Nashville area.

1244
01:08:19,530 --> 01:08:21,750
Speaker 2: But I know that this is a topic so many

1245
01:08:21,810 --> 01:08:25,849
Speaker 2: of us need to understand biblically. How do you approach

1246
01:08:25,939 --> 01:08:28,990
Speaker 2: these seasons in life? Because they can really derail us.

1247
01:08:29,470 --> 01:08:31,150
Speaker 2: Maybe it doesn't take us all the way out of

1248
01:08:31,170 --> 01:08:33,170
Speaker 2: the faith, but I know for a lot of people

1249
01:08:33,210 --> 01:08:36,330
Speaker 2: it does. This is where they get hung up and

1250
01:08:36,370 --> 01:08:39,410
Speaker 2: maybe even walk away from the faith altogether. But if

1251
01:08:39,450 --> 01:08:42,610
Speaker 2: it doesn't derail us from our faith in God, it

1252
01:08:42,729 --> 01:08:46,799
Speaker 2: can certainly derail us from our purpose. And we don't

1253
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 2: want that to happen.

1254
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:52,420
Speaker 1: So definitely tune in next week because that's when we're

1255
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:55,730
Speaker 1: going to bring all of this together, you guys. there

1256
01:08:55,870 --> 01:08:58,700
Speaker 1: is a chapter of scripture that God led me to

1257
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 1: in a pretty extraordinary way during a recent season of suffering.

1258
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,700
Speaker 2: It was after the loss of a very, very dear friend.

1259
01:09:07,140 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 2: And what I discovered in that passage, honestly, it just

1260
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:16,650
Speaker 2: blew my mind. It literally is a roadmap for wrestling

1261
01:09:16,910 --> 01:09:22,050
Speaker 2: through disappointment over what God has allowed to happen in life.

1262
01:09:22,570 --> 01:09:25,890
Speaker 2: And what he showed me confirms that. everything we've been

1263
01:09:25,930 --> 01:09:29,250
Speaker 2: talking about today. I cannot wait to share that with

1264
01:09:29,290 --> 01:09:32,100
Speaker 2: you next week. So if you're not convinced yet, next

1265
01:09:32,150 --> 01:09:33,620
Speaker 2: week we are going to make what I believe is

1266
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:38,219
Speaker 2: the most powerful biblical case for why wrestling with God

1267
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 2: isn't a failure of faith. No, I think it's actually

1268
01:09:43,180 --> 01:09:48,250
Speaker 2: an invitation to go deeper in your faith. And our kids,

1269
01:09:48,310 --> 01:09:50,170
Speaker 2: they need to see us. They need to see us

1270
01:09:50,530 --> 01:09:52,350
Speaker 2: wrestling through.

1271
01:09:52,410 --> 01:09:53,650
Speaker 3: These tough issues.

1272
01:09:54,150 --> 01:09:56,589
Speaker 2: I believe it's going to help them to stand strong

1273
01:09:56,650 --> 01:09:58,430
Speaker 2: as well. You don't want to miss it.

1274
01:09:59,410 --> 01:10:03,050
Speaker 1: And as always, remember, God gave you your kids, your

1275
01:10:03,150 --> 01:10:07,310
Speaker 1: specific kids for a reason. That's because you hold the

1276
01:10:07,370 --> 01:10:10,950
Speaker 1: key to unlocking who God created them to be.

1277
01:10:11,689 --> 01:10:12,689
Speaker 2: We'll see you next time.

1278
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:22,900
Speaker 6: Christian Parent Crazy World is a production of Life Audio

1279
01:10:23,020 --> 01:10:23,820
Speaker 6: and Salem Media.

1280
01:10:24,460 --> 01:10:27,110
Speaker 2: If you liked what you heard today, please take a second.

1281
01:10:26,830 --> 01:10:30,030
Speaker 5: To rate and review this podcast in your favorite podcast

1282
01:10:30,130 --> 01:10:30,910
Speaker 5: app so.

1283
01:10:30,850 --> 01:10:33,820
Speaker 2: That more listeners like you can find the show. For

1284
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:37,820
Speaker 2: more faith-filled, inspirational podcasts, visit us at lifeaudio.com.