1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 2: Hi there, and welcome to the Praying Christian Women Podcast. 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 2: I'm Jamie and today I'm so excited to have a 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: friend of the podcast back, Dana Chay. She's been on 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: the podcast before, but now we are also part of 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: the Same Life Audio podcast network family, which is exciting. 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 2: Dana is a natural born teacher. She loves to inspire 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: and educate people through her podcast, through speaking engagements, through 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 2: her coaching platform, and through writing. Today we get to 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: talk about her newest book that's just out called Tried 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: and True Marriage Advice from twelve Imperfect Biblical Couples. I 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: just can't wait. Thanks for being with us, Dana. 13 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: I'm so excited, Jamie. Thank you so much for having 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: me back. Yeah. 15 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: Well, before we jump in to the good stuff, we 16 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 2: like to ask what is your favorite prayer closet? So 17 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: where do you like to go to spend time with God. 18 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: It could be crazy, off the wall, regular, it could 19 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: be an actual closet whatever. 20 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, actually i'm looking I mean where you're looking 21 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: at me at right now. I'm in my office and 22 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: this is doubles as my prayer closet. It's cozy, it's 23 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: like all my favorite colors, it's warm. I've got my 24 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: little space heater, I've got a blue like velvety couch 25 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: in here, Like, oh yeah, I created this room for prayer. 26 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: So it's not just the work space that I work in, 27 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: but I created this room with prayer in mine. It's 28 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: my absolute favorite room in the house. 29 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 2: I love that. And I just think there's something really 30 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: special about having the place where you pray the most 31 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: be the place where you're doing your work and your ministry, 32 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: because I just there has to be something very tangible 33 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: and spiritually anointed about a place where you pray so much. Yeah, 34 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: I love that. 35 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I never thought about that, honestly, Jamie, But like, you're 36 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: exactly right. I mean, this is the place that I 37 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: create in. It's the place where I hear from God. 38 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we can hear from God anywhere, but 39 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: it is the place where I dedicate literally like sitting 40 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: with Him and being in his presence and just spending 41 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: that time with Him. And so yeah, thank you for 42 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: that reminder. I'm like, and it's also the place where 43 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: I get to work. 44 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, can you just tell us a little bit 45 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: about your ministry and what led you to focus a 46 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 2: ministry on marriage specifically. 47 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I you know, as many of us, we 48 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: don't choose our calling. Our calling chooses us, if you will. 49 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: My husband and I got married super young. We were 50 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: eighteen and twenty one hashtag dumb, and I had no 51 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: idea what we were getting ourselves into. And we of 52 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: course started having problems like very early in our marriage. 53 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: And I remember, especially in the church that we attended, 54 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: I would look for other couples. I would look for 55 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: mentor couples to help us, to lead us, and we 56 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: were going through some major stuff. So like, you know, 57 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: I kind of understand why people looked at us like 58 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: we had three eyes, but we really just didn't find 59 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: that mentorship and that couple that could just be real 60 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: on and transparent with us. So I kind of made 61 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: this vow, which I really didn't realize at the time 62 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: what I was saying, but I said, Lord, if you 63 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: redeem our marriage, if you heal our marriage, I will 64 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: be to other couples with someone was never to us. 65 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: And that's really like twelve years later, the Lord kind 66 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: of came back on that was like, hey, you remember 67 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: when you said, you know, and so you know, thankfully 68 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: the Lord healed our marriage. There's a whole transformation story 69 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: in there, and people would just start coming up to 70 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: us because I've always been very transparent, and so people 71 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: just would ask about our story. You know, how did 72 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: you navigate this, How did you deal with your emotions, 73 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: your unforgiveness, your feelings, and so it just kind of 74 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: naturally evolved into this coaching practice. And then I thought, 75 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, I found myself saying a lot of the 76 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: same things over and over. Why don't I start a 77 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: podcast so that way I can resource what I'm saying. 78 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 1: I had no idea that I would be here six 79 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: years later, three hundred and ninety three episodes later, still 80 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: talking about marriage. But I absolutely love this work, and 81 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: I really love the fact that God will often bring people, 82 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: even non believers, to me, and they think they're coming 83 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: to me because their marriage is struggling, but they're really 84 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: coming to me because the Lord has drawn them to himself, 85 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: and He's using their marriage to bring them to himself 86 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: into himself, and it's just it's my greatest honor, it 87 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: really is. 88 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: Oh, that's amazing. So when you were looking for those couples, 89 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: was the problem that you found that the couples were 90 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: unwilling to air their dirty laundry, like to admit that 91 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: they didn't have the perfect, picture perfect marriage. Or was 92 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: it that they just their marriages were broken already and 93 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: they didn't have the energy or bandwidth to share anything, 94 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: or what was the thing? I'm just curious as a 95 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 2: married woman in the church, now, what is what are 96 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: people seeing that is preventing them from seeing me as 97 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: an approachable person to talk to a younger? 98 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was both, you know. I think that there 99 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: is this stigma in Christianity, and that because we know that, 100 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: like our sins are under the blood and the Lord 101 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: has placed our sins as far as the East is 102 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: from the west, I think sometimes people have a hard 103 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: time talking about their pre transformation life, about the things 104 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: that the Lord has redeemed them from. But the Bible 105 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: also says that we have overcome by the blood of 106 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: the Lamb and the word of our testimony. So if 107 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: we're not sharing our testimony, then we're not going to 108 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: be of really any service to anyone else. And so 109 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: I think we saw a lot of that where people 110 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: just they were not comfortable being transparent about some of 111 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: the things that they had walked through and then sadly, Jamie. 112 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: The other thing that we would learn is that some 113 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: of these couples that we reached out to were in 114 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: their own shame and brokenness, and we would learn like 115 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: when their marriages would implode or when something would happen, 116 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: and people would be like, oh, my gosh, I had 117 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: no idea. These were some of the very couples that 118 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: we were going to looking for help. And it was 119 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: really God's protection, which we learned, you know, we know 120 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: that now, but it was God's protection that they didn't 121 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: reach out to us because they would not have been 122 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: a helpful source to us. 123 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 2: And that's yeah, yeah, would you mind just kind of 124 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: sharing your story. 125 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, like I said, my husband and I got 126 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: married at eighteen and twenty one with a six week 127 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: old baby. So our six week old son is in 128 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: our wedding photos. So obviously there was a whole teenage 129 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: pregnancy there. First semester in college I found out that 130 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: I was pregnant. My boyfriend now husband at the time 131 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: had been dating for several years. I grew up in 132 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: the church. I love the Lord. I just did not 133 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: have a dedicated, surrendered life to the Lord, and so 134 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: when we got married, we had all of the same 135 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: issues that a young married couple would have. As far 136 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,679 Speaker 1: as you know, we weren't really financially stable at the time. 137 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: We also had a child, so we're trying to figure 138 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: out how to navigate parenthood, and we had no boundaries. 139 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: So I still had all my guy friends, my husband 140 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: still had all his female friends, and so adultery entered 141 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: the picture very early in our marriage, and we both 142 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: committed adultery. For me, it was a quote best friend 143 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: that I had that that relationship turned physical one time, 144 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: and it does not I certainly do not excuse this, 145 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: but it was a one time situation. I completely caught 146 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: that relationship off have not talked to that man in 147 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: almost thirty years. My husband, on the other hand, really 148 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: dealt with a lot of cycles of infidelity where he 149 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: would be unfaithful. I find out, I threatened divorce, We 150 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: go to counseling. I mean, this went on for quite 151 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: some time, and throughout all of those cycles of infidelity, 152 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: my heart became very hardened, very bitter. The loves that 153 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: we had that was already kind of hanging on by 154 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: a thin thread, was almost non existent. And that was 155 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: the state of our marriage when I felt like this, 156 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: this can't get any worse than what it was. You know, 157 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: that time, we also had you know, four children, and 158 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: so my youngest son was probably two at the time 159 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: when the Lord really and it really was a work 160 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: of the Lord, Like there's no therapist, there's no small group, 161 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: there's no book, there's nothing other than the Lord intervening, 162 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: totally changing my heart because my heart was completely closed 163 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: and cold. So the Lord really transforming my heart and 164 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: transforming my husband's heart. When the Bible says that the 165 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: Lord will give us hearts of flesh for hearts of stone, 166 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: that's what he did for us. My husband was in 167 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: an unrepentant cycle of infidelity, and the Lord intervened and 168 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: changed his heart and changed his life and throughout It 169 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: took years, obviously to rebuild trust and to even have 170 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: the willingness because we had done an in home separation. 171 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: We had a whole bunch of kids and like no money, 172 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: so we really couldn't afford to, like, I mean real talk, 173 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: we couldn't afford to like do the whole like I'm 174 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: gonna leave you. It's like nope, I'm gonna stay right here, 175 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: and you go on that other room. So you know, 176 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: throughout that in home separation and again just the Lord 177 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: transforming him. And then yes, the Lord brought on a 178 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: great Christian therapists and we started mentoring, you know, with 179 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: other more mature couples that could walk us through throughout 180 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: all of that process. Is you know, all of that 181 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: the Lord used for this transformation in our life. Wow. 182 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: And then to see just the redeeming work of God. 183 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: How he took that pain, he took that just those 184 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 2: years of searching and pushing to give you this ministry 185 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: where and thank you for sharing. I mean, it can't 186 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 2: be easy for you to share such deeply personal things. 187 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: And thank you for doing that, because I know it's 188 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: not easy. 189 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're welcome, And like I said, I do it 190 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: because not to shame my husband and not to say 191 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: that we have arrived, because you know, we've been married 192 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: for twenty almost twenty seven years and we are still growing. 193 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: We are still every day like living by the grace 194 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: of God. And so I'm just grateful because our story, 195 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: like our children know our story. All of our kids 196 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: are grown now, except for the littlest one he's sixteen, 197 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: but they all know, you know, what we've been through, 198 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: and we're not ashamed to tell our story. It doesn't 199 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 1: feel great, you know, to talk about the sins of 200 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: our past, but I hold on to that scripture that 201 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: we our stories are what helped to bring redemption to 202 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: other people. 203 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then just the example of confessed and repented 204 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: of sin leading to restoration is in my opinion, more 205 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: powerful than your kids never experiencing or knowing any kind 206 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: of infidelity or any kind of anything. You know, I 207 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: think there's more power and that's that's what God does, 208 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 2: is he sheds light on the things that darkness covers. 209 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 2: And when they're when they stay hidden, I mean they confesster, 210 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: they can become worse. But when the when the light 211 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 2: exposes them. I think the Bible says, even what was 212 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: dark becomes light, it becomes good and praise God. I mean, 213 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: what a powerful picture of God's work to redeem that 214 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: they that we would rather not talk about or rather 215 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: not think about into positive things. So I'm sure that 216 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: those things are making an impact in the lives of 217 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: your kids because you're allowing God to use them. 218 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, amen, Amen. I'll just share a real quick story. 219 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: So I had my book launch party this past weekend, 220 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: and it was such a special time, and there was 221 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: a Q and a time where you know, we asked 222 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: readers and people who would come to the launch party 223 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: what questions they had. And so one of our elders 224 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: actually in our church, asked me, how does this affect 225 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: your kids? Because they know, like my church family, they 226 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: know like when I'm on the I'm on the preaching team, 227 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: They're like whenever I speak, when whatever I do anything, 228 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: you're just gonna hear what God has done in my life. 229 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm very open about that. And so he asked, he said, 230 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: how does your openness you and Shawn's that's my husband, 231 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: you and Shawn's openness, how does that affect your children? 232 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: And I said, well, two of the four kids are here. 233 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: My daughter lives in Guam, she's in the Air Force. 234 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 1: And then my older my third born son is at college. 235 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: And so we had our oldest son and our youngest 236 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: son there. And so I said, well, two of the 237 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: kids are here, why don't we hear from them? And 238 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: so my twenty six year old, the Lord has just 239 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: done such an incredible work in his life. So Chris, 240 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: this is his name. Chris gets up and he says, 241 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: you know what I've seen with my own eyes, you know, 242 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: God's transformative work of my parents' life and then their marriage. 243 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: And it doesn't cause me to be embarrassed by what 244 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: they share. He said of anything as a young man, 245 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: it helps me to know that I don't have to 246 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: live in shame because of my past. And of course 247 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to fall out in like tears and a 248 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: puddle of tears, you know, because you don't know when 249 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: you're going through something like that that God is gonna 250 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: use it. Like I say all the time, God doesn't 251 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: waste the thing, and he can use our mistakes, our pain, 252 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: our mess ups, our failings, he can use our insecurities, 253 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: He can use everything. And so the fact that our 254 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: kids are saying their struggle has helped me that even 255 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: when I struggle, I don't have to live in They 256 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: know that there is a redeemer who lives that they 257 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: can run to anytime. And so for me, I'm like, 258 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: I'm done, Like I've started the purpose. Lord, I'm good. 259 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: That's amazing. I love that. 260 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: Well. One of my favorite quotes in your book is 261 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 2: marriage doesn't usually fall apart in a single moment of crisis. 262 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: It wears thin. 263 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: In the long middle. Yeah, that is so true because 264 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: I think we picture like these crisis moments, but really 265 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: it's kind of a longer, longer process of wearing sin. 266 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: So how do we navigate And I mean the long 267 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: middle can start, you know, on day two of your marriage. 268 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: And work to the end. 269 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 2: But what how do we navigate this long middle part? 270 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: And what are the warning signs that you're wearing sin? 271 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: Great question? You know. For me, it was apathy, even 272 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: though Sean and I had gone through adultery and that 273 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: was kind of the per fasive problem in our marriage. 274 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: But on the underbelly of that, if I can say 275 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: it that way, when you start to notice that you're 276 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: just apathetic, maybe you're not like angry. A lot of 277 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: times people feel like I'm not angry, but that's actually 278 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: not always a good anger shows you that you care. 279 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: You're a motive because you care. When you get to 280 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: that place of just not caring or you're just apathetic, 281 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: that is a huge red flag that you're in that middle, 282 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: that you're in that long, messy middle, that drifting that 283 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: I often talk about, which is really a danger sign 284 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: for your marriage. I think another danger sign is when 285 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: you stop connecting spiritually. And that's really the goal behind 286 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: this book is to help couples not only to improve 287 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: their marriage, but to reconnect spiritually. So if you were 288 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: a couple who you prayed together, or you attended church together, 289 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: or you talked about the deeper things of God together, 290 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: you prayed for your spouse even if you weren't praying 291 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: with them, When you stop praying for your spouse, those 292 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: are danger signs. I think another danger sign, you know, 293 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: when do you know that we've we've every couple obviously 294 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: is going to go through just kind of ebbs and flows, 295 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: seasons where you're gonna feel like, I'm so happy I 296 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: married this person, They're my favorite person ever. And then 297 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: times you're like why did I marry this person? I 298 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: don't want you know what I mean? Like, that's just real. 299 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: We all go through that. Take them, take them back, 300 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: refund policy please. But I think there's times that you 301 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: know that this isn't just like a normal ebb and 302 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: flow where you feel like my heart is actually disconnecting, 303 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: and we have got to pay attention to those moments 304 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: and really nip them in the bud. The Lord says 305 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: that it's the little foxes that destroy the vineyard. For 306 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: a lot of couples, it isn't infidelity, it isn't abuse. 307 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: It's not this big trauma where your husband or wife 308 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: cleaned out your bank account and moved to another country. 309 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: I mean, those are more rare situations for most couples. 310 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: It's that every day taking each other for granted, not 311 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: saying thank you, not thinking about your spouse when you're 312 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: at Walmart buying something. I mean, just little things like 313 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: that that build up over time. Those are those little foxes, 314 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: those conflicts that you don't resolve because you're just tired 315 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: of talking about it. All of those little things build up, 316 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: and then before long, the vineyard is destroyed. 317 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: I imagine that the people listening, the women that are 318 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: listening right now, fall into one of three categories. There's 319 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: either the couple who you know, the woman who is 320 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: married to someone who is a believer, and either they 321 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: have in the past or they do now have a 322 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: spiritual connection of some kind where they can pray together 323 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 2: talk about spiritual things. The person who's unequally yoked, maybe 324 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: in the sense of maybe spirituality and her faith is 325 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: more important to her. He's kind of an unwilling tag 326 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: along to church and maybe believes but not really one 327 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: hundred percent on board, and maybe there's a strain there 328 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: and an imbalance. And then the one who is married 329 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: to her has a partner who is not a believer 330 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 2: at all or even maybe hostile toward her faith. I 331 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: love in this book you kind of talk about those things. 332 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: Can you, like, for the person listening who's just like, yes, 333 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 2: I'm apathetic, there's no spiritual connection right now, can you 334 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 2: address each of those three circumstances and maybe a first 335 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 2: step if they're in that situation. 336 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll speak to the first couple who they are 337 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: both equally yoke. They're both believers. Maybe they're spiritual connection 338 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: isn't as strong as they would like, but they're not 339 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: anti reading the word together. They pray maybe once or 340 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: twice a week. I would say it's good to acknowledge 341 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: where you are and to appreciate the fact that you 342 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: are spiritually connected in some sense. It's not all bad 343 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: because it's not where you want it to be. And 344 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: so just acknowledging your strengths and really speaking to your 345 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: spouse if your desire. I'm speaking to a wife if 346 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: her desire is to grow even deeper in that spiritual 347 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: connection with her husband. It's to lay out the vision, 348 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, and come at it from a positive standpoint. Listen, 349 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: I remember when we used to pray late at night 350 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: on the phone when we were dating, or I remember 351 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: when in worship you would just reach over and grab 352 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: my hand. I miss those days. I want to get 353 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: back to that. So I think approaching it from a 354 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: place of having a vision of where you want to go, 355 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: but also appreciating what you do have is going to 356 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: be the best course of action for the spouse who 357 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: has a husband who maybe is, you know, kind of 358 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: like you said, a spiritual tag along he goes to 359 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 1: church if you guiltome enough, I've lived there, like, I 360 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: know what that's like. The guilt and shame thing does 361 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: not work. Like you guilting your husband to go to 362 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: church with you, or guilty him to pray, or God 363 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: forbid judging his prayer when he does pray. That is 364 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: not going to get you the results that you want. 365 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: So in that situation, understand that we are all on 366 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: a journey of faith and there are going to be 367 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: times where, yes, most Christian women they want their husbands 368 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: to be the spiritual leader that just might not be 369 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: your reality right now. And so for sure, never compare 370 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: him to like another man that you feel is more 371 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: spiritually adept, you know, but also speaking life into that man, 372 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: because what I have found for me is my husband. 373 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: It looks to me like he was disinterested or disengaged, 374 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: and really he was just insecure. Oh he didn't, yeah, 375 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: like he felt like, well, I don't pray like she prays, 376 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: so I'm just not going to pray with her at all, 377 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: you know. Or when I go to church, maybe I 378 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: don't have the same experience that she's having. So maybe 379 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: I just don't really want to go to church. And 380 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: so when I started realizing this is not a competition 381 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: and my husband might be struggling with things that he 382 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: might not ever voice, then I have more grace and compassion. 383 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: And then I appeal to the Lord to say, God, 384 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: you love this man more than I do. You want 385 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: him to have a closer walk with you more than 386 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 1: I do. So give me the wisdom and the patience 387 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: to bear with him. The Bible talks about bearing each 388 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: other's burdens. Give me the wisdom and the patience to 389 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: bear with him while he figures out this spiritual component. 390 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: So that's what I would say to the second couple. 391 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 2: That is so good that I love that you brought 392 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: up the fact of insecurity versus disinterest, because I think 393 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 2: that is so important. I remember we got to talk 394 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: with Leslie Strobel's wife like the case for Christ, and 395 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: she talked about when he was not a believer that 396 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 2: he actually said to her that he was jealous of 397 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: her relationship with God. It was like there was a 398 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 2: competition and he felt inadequate to compete with that relationship, 399 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: which to me was mind blowing, like he was being angry, 400 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 2: but he was. It was because he was sad and 401 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: felt inadequate and hurt. And once they opened that up, 402 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 2: it kind of helped a little bit to move forward 403 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 2: in restoring that relationship. 404 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so real. I mean, again, this is where 405 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: I lived for a long time. Just as recently as 406 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: last month, we were having a conversation, my husband and 407 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: I were having a conversation with our oldest son, and 408 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: my husband expressed that again, like you know, I'm a 409 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: teaching pastor, I'd live, breathe, eat, sleep, the word of God, 410 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: Love the word of God. Right, And my husband oftentimes 411 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: feels like, I mean, he loves the Lord, but that's 412 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: we're not in the same place spiritually, and so I've 413 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: had to be aware of that. Like I can pray Jamie, 414 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: I could pray for an hour and a half and 415 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: feel like it's five minutes this past well, I can't 416 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: pray with him for an hour and a half, you 417 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: know what I mean. And so for me that that 418 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: used to be a problem for me. I would be like, gosh, oh, 419 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: I wish that he could pray long, you know, like 420 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: powerful prayers like me. And then I had to take 421 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: my own advice, Right, what is he willing to do? 422 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: If he's willing to pray with me for five minutes 423 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: in the morning, great, And I can save my hour 424 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: long prayer for when I get in my prayer closet 425 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: with the Lord. I don't have to do that necessarily 426 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: with him or look down on him, because that's not 427 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: where he is. And I will say that obviously we 428 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: know that long prayers aren't necessarily more effective prayers because 429 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: you can pray a very very effective, powerful, three four 430 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: minute prayer. And so I think if you're that stronger 431 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: spiritually speaking, that stronger wife, giving your husband that grace 432 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: and knowing and praying for him more than you talk 433 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: to him about where he's at spiritually. I like that. 434 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: That's so good. 435 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: All right, Well I interrupted you before you got to 436 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: our listener who has a either non believing husband or 437 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: antagonistic to faith or both. 438 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, First, you gotta forgive yourself. If you knew that 439 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: you got married, and you know what the word says 440 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: about do not be unequally yoked. And you got married anyway, 441 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot of shame that can follow you around, 442 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: and you can allow the Bible calls him the enemy, 443 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: the accuser of the brethren, to keep you. See, that's 444 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: why your husband's like this. You shouldn't married him. Okay, 445 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't have asked for forgiveness. Repent and then 446 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: take up your place, which is a daughter of God. 447 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: You have the mercy seat of the Father that we 448 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: can appeal to and say, Lord, yes, I made a mistake. 449 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: I married a man who was not a follower of Christ. 450 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: But I pray that even in my disobedience, Lord, would 451 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: you draw him to yourself? And then we do what 452 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: first Peter teaches us that wives without a word can 453 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: cause her unbelieving husband to come to faith like that 454 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: is powerful. And so for me again because even though 455 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: my husband we were both Christians when we got married, 456 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: but neither one of us were really walking with the Lord. 457 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: And I'm telling you what I know. I tried the crying, 458 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: I tried the guilt, I tried the shame, I try 459 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 1: you name it. I tried it right, and I had 460 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: to get to a place where I said, Okay, what 461 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 1: does it mean that without a word, I can actually 462 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: be a light to my husband. That means the way 463 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: I love him. That means being his friend. That means 464 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:23,959 Speaker 1: showing Jesus without necessarily preaching Jesus, which is being compassionate, 465 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: being a good listener, being full of mercy, telling the truth, 466 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: like all of those things. I can show my husband 467 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: who Jesus is better than I can tell him. And 468 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: so that's my encouragement to a wife who is just 469 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: like my husband is anti God. He's hostile. Usually people 470 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: who are hostile toward the faith have had a negative 471 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: experience with someone of faith. So you don't be that person. 472 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: Don't beat him over the head with the scripture, don't 473 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: tell them all the things that they should be doing, 474 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: and should like you just focus on how can I 475 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: if this were Jesus Christ, Literally, if I was married 476 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: to Jesus Christ, how would I love him and then 477 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: love that way and then trust God with the results. 478 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: That's good. Yeah. The ironic thing is it's like almost 479 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: like the more we talk about what should be done, 480 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 2: it's like the words might even do the opposite of 481 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: pushing them away as opposed to just loving them and 482 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 2: you know, being the hands and. 483 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: Feet of Jesus. I love that. Okay. 484 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: So you talk about well meaning Christian women using prayer 485 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: as a way to control outcomes rather than surrender their hearts, 486 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: and that one, that one might have hit a little 487 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: too close to home. So can you talk about this? 488 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: How do we recognize this in ourselves? What are some 489 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: examples of doing this? 490 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: Yes, oh my goodness. And let me just tell you, Jamie, 491 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: everything that I've written in the book, all the mistakes 492 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: I've made, okay, and probably still make many of them. 493 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: So praying to control the outcome when we pray, we 494 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: are not praying that our will be done. That's not 495 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: what Jesus taught us to pray. Lord, let my will 496 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: be done on earth as it is. And he says, 497 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: pray that my will pray God's will be done on 498 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: earth as it is in heaven. So when we pray, 499 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: we're not putting our faith in the outcome. We're putting 500 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: our faith in the Savior. And so Lord, it changes 501 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: how you pray where I'll give you an example. When 502 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: my husband had an unrepentant heart, and you know he 503 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: was He's always been a very kind man. He's always 504 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: been like he's never he was never abusive to me 505 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: in that regard or like I don't care, I'm gonna 506 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: be out here doing whatever. He would pretend and he 507 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: would lie because he knew what he was doing was 508 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: hurting me. So I started saying okay, and I prayed 509 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: some prayers, and I'm so glad that the Lord did 510 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: not answer, you know what I mean, Like I don't 511 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: know if you've ever prayed prayers. I'm like, Lord, let's 512 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: get my truck in Jeep's name. But faithfully, you know, 513 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: God didn't answer those. But there were times where I 514 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: when I would listen, it was almost like the Holy 515 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: Spirit would like echo in my mind my prayers, and 516 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: it was all about make him do this so he 517 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: could be a better husband to me, I need a 518 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: better experience down here on earth. Do all these things 519 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: in his life so he can be better for me. 520 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: And then I said, wait a minute, Lord, I'm supposed 521 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: to be praying Your kingdom Come. Your will be done 522 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: on earth as it is in heaven. So Lord in heaven, 523 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: when your word says in Psalms one thirty nine that 524 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: every day of my husband's life was written in your 525 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: book before one day came to be, what did that 526 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: look like? What's the vision that you have for his life? God? 527 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: I pray that the vision that you have for my 528 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: husband's life will be accomplished. That's how we pray to 529 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: enact the will of God in someone's life. And so 530 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: oftentimes we can use prayer to control the outcome. We 531 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 1: can center ourselves in prayer, and that's not how Jesus 532 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: taught us to pray. It doesn't mean that we don't 533 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: pour our heart out before the Lord. Like just read 534 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: through the Psalms, right, We can pour our heart out 535 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: before the Lord, and we thank God that he hears 536 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: us when we pray. But we also have to pray 537 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: from a place of faith in God, not in faith 538 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: again in the outcome, because the outcome might not ever change. 539 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: Let's go back to that woman. Maybe your husband never 540 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: gets saved, maybe he never turns his life over to 541 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: the Lord. It doesn't mean that your prayers were just awash. No, 542 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: God still heard you, and God can still move in 543 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: your marriage even if your husband isn't a believer. So 544 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: we place our hope. That's why we call it an 545 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: eternal hope. It's not in the temporary things that we 546 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: experience on earth. Our hope has to be in the 547 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: eternal goodness of God. And when you pray from that lens, 548 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: first of all, you experience that true peace. That's that 549 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: peace that surpasses your understanding. And then you realize it's 550 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: not up to me to control the outcome or the situation. 551 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: What the Lord is calling me to do is to 552 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: lay my spouse before him and that's it, and let 553 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: God control the outcome. That's great. 554 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 2: I love that picture of how did you put it? 555 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: That God wrote out? 556 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, so on one thirty nine says every day of 557 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: our lives was recorded in his book before one day 558 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 1: came to be Yes. And so when I look at 559 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: and I do this, I pray this prayer for myself 560 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: because there's lots of opportunities out here, right, there's lots 561 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: of things I could be doing. Busyness, we get caught 562 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: up in that. But Lord, what is the story of 563 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: my life that you wrote out? I want to accomplish that? 564 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: And you pray this for your children, even I pray 565 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: this for my kids all the time. Lord, is the 566 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: what is the purpose of my children's lives? What did 567 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: you have in mind when you created them in their 568 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: mother's womb? Let that story come to pass? And then 569 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: of course I pray that same prayer over my husband. Amen. 570 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 2: That is powerful. That is it's always powerful to pray 571 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 2: you know, thy Kingdom come that I will be done. 572 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: But that's a very specific prayer that I'm definitely going 573 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: to hold on too. 574 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: I love that God, Yeah, absolutely so. 575 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 2: In the Adam and Eve chapter, so the way that 576 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 2: this book is laid out, can you kind of talk 577 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: about the book and just how you laid it out? 578 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 2: Because this is very unique. I've never seen this, and 579 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: I love it. So how's this book laid out? 580 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: For those? I love it? First of all, I love 581 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: that you've never seen it, and I've heard comment from 582 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: many people like, Gosh, I've never seen something like this before, 583 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: and I'm like, let me tell you, this was a 584 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: download from the Holy Spirit. I was speaking at a 585 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: conference in New York and in a hotel room, the 586 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: Lord was like boom, and I was like, oh my gosh, 587 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: this is amazing. So these twelve couples. This book originally 588 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: I was going to do like a twelve week devotional. 589 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: So I was like, Okay, we're going to talk about 590 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: twelve couples one per week. And I didn't want to 591 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: choose just couples that everybody knows about. Adam and Eve 592 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: obviously everyone knows about them. I didn't want to choose 593 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: Ruth and Boaz, for example. I wanted to look at 594 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: what who are maybe some lesser known couples that really 595 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: went through things and their marriage. And so that's why 596 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: it's called twelve imperfect Biblical couples because none of these 597 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: couples were saints. You know, newsflash, none of the Bible 598 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: characters are perfect. They all have struggles. But I really 599 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: wanted to focus on a specific issue that many people 600 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: experience in their marriage. So, for example, with the Adam 601 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: and Eve chapter, a lot of people are married, but 602 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: they're not vulnerable with one another, and so this title. 603 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 1: The title of that chapter is called Naked and Unashamed? 604 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: What does it look like to be naked and unashamed 605 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: not just physically but emotionally before your spouse. Another one 606 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: of my favorites is when I talk about Jacob and 607 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: Leah loneliness and marriage. A lot of people are married 608 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: and alone, their spouses are not emotionally available, maybe physically unavailable, 609 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: and so how do you navigate that? So I really 610 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: took these twelve different couples and I looked at what 611 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: was the main issue that they were facing in their 612 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: marriage and how does that speak to us today? 613 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, back to your Adam and Eve chapter. I 614 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: love this insight that they hid from each other before 615 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 2: they hid from God, because you know, you think about 616 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 2: Adam and EVAs they were naked, they realize it and 617 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: they hid, but they hid from each other before they 618 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: hid from God. So can you talk about that? Because 619 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: you expound on this idea of spiritual intimacy being important 620 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: and being kind of found. So can you talk about 621 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: that and what advice you have for someone who realizes 622 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: I don't have that kind of spiritual intimacy and I 623 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: don't even know where to start. 624 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so good, you know, the spiritual component. We are 625 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: spirits who live in a body and have a soul, 626 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: and so to think that we can connect with our spouse, 627 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: or we can even say I love my spouse with 628 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: all of my being, but we're not spiritually connected, we're 629 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: missing something, you know. When Jesus taught us to love 630 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: the Lord's your God with all your heart, all your mind, 631 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: all your soul, all your strength, we see that trichotomy 632 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: in that, you know. Even and so when I'm looking 633 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: at a couple and I see that they're hiding from 634 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: each other, that would look like instead of I often 635 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: say this phrase. God didn't call us to be peace makers, 636 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: to be peace fakers. He calls us to be peace makers. 637 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: And so oftentimes in marriage we think, well, I'm just 638 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: not going to bring it up. I don't want to 639 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: ruffle feathers. I don't want to cause conflict. Really, what 640 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: we're doing is we're hiding. We're hiding our emotions, we're 641 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: hiding our true beliefs, we're hiding our pain, and so 642 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: we hide from each other, and therefore we end up 643 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: also hiding from God because we're not going to bring 644 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: those things to the Lord Jesus says cast all or 645 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: the Bible says, cast all of your cares upon God. 646 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: Peter said, for he cares for you. So if I'm 647 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: not willing to be honest about where I'm at, I'm 648 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: not going to cast my cares on God, I'm not 649 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: going to be open to my spouse and I live 650 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: in this perpetual shame, and shame is one of the 651 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: most destructive emotions that a human can experience, statistically speaking, 652 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: and I've done I've had lots of conversations with men 653 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: who mentor other men out of pornography. Now we know 654 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: that women are susceptible to pornography as well. It's not 655 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: just the male issue, but speaking to the male specific, 656 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: most men who are involved in porn are deeply shameful. 657 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: That's usually one of the things that draws them to that. 658 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: And so I think that, I mean, I could go 659 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: on and on and on about how destruct if shame 660 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: is to our lives. But to answer your question, if 661 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: a couple who is spiritually disconnected, they realize, Okay, we 662 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: need to work on that. How do we start. What 663 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: do we do? Do we just pray? Do we just 664 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: go to church together? I think First of all, prayer 665 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: is where it starts. So inviting your spouse, not commanding them, 666 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: not saying we need to fix our marriage. Let's pray. 667 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: But just I want us to be able to go 668 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: to the Lord together. And I would love to start 669 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: praying together with you. How does that sound to you? 670 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 1: And see what they say, you know, and if they're like, well, 671 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: I can't do it every day, okay, Well can we 672 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: pray together on Sunday nights before we go to bed 673 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: or something like that? Start somewhere. And I think the 674 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: best place to start is prayer. And when you pray, 675 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: pray for your spouse. Like I don't know about you, Jamie, 676 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: but like when my husband prays for me, I'm like, amen, 677 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: keep going, keep going like that. It fills my cup. 678 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: So if you start praying for your spouse and not 679 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: praying against him, you know, not, God, help my help 680 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: my husband to stop being lazy and leaving his food 681 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: all over the floor and his thocks like no, Like, Lord, 682 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: I thank you for my husband. I thank you that 683 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: you chose him from me. I thank you God for 684 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: all the ways that he provides for our family. I 685 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: thank you Father God that he is such an amazing 686 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: father to our kids. I thank you, Lord, God that 687 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: you gifted him to our family. Like, think of how 688 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: you're building that man up. As you are thanking God 689 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: for who he is. Your husband is going to want 690 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: to pray with you if you pray for him that way. 691 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: So I would say start there, start with prayer, and 692 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: then a lot of times then we think, okay, we've 693 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: got to go to church together. Church is great. I 694 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: love church. You know. However, for especially for couples who 695 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: maybe one spouse doesn't want to attend church, I think 696 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 1: that the better opportunity is not let us go to church, 697 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: but it's let us be able to be comfortable talking 698 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,959 Speaker 1: about the things of the Lord. So you might see 699 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: something on social media, you might see something on TV. 700 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: My husband and I would like to watch movies together, 701 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: and I'm so analytical, like I analyze every single movie, right, 702 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: So there might be something maybe even in a movie 703 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: that you see that can spark a spiritual conversation between 704 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: you and your spouse. So the goal is intimacy. I 705 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: say in the book, intimacy is into me. See I'm 706 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: willing to be vulnerable and let you see who I 707 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: really am. And so start there, start with prayer, and 708 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: then you start with deciding we're going to have some 709 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: conversations that are that are more spiritually aligned in wherever 710 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: we see them. It can be in nature, it can 711 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: be something that your kids do that reminds you of 712 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,280 Speaker 1: God's love for you. I mean, it could be anything 713 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: that's great. 714 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: I love that because those are stepping stones. It's not 715 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: like this huge stretch if, like you said, your spouse 716 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: is like I don't know if I want to go 717 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 2: to church, but to just you can do it right 718 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: in your own home. You can do it every day, 719 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: any day, anytime. That's really good advice. Yeah, So kind 720 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 2: of back to sharing your story for the woman who 721 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 2: is in a situation, whether it's infidelity, whether it's other 722 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 2: things that are causing strain on her marriage that she's 723 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 2: praying for the salvation of her spouse. What advice do 724 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 2: you have seeing as you went through many years of 725 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 2: just kind of praying the same prayers over and over again. 726 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: Probably I guess first, can you talk about the evolution 727 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: of your prayers from just kind of like God help 728 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 2: in the trenches to how they evolved over time through 729 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 2: your journey, And then I guess the second part of 730 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 2: that is kind of addressing the woman who's feeling just 731 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 2: weary of praying the same thing over and over again 732 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 2: and not feeling like God is listening. 733 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, mm hmmm. So my prayer life is definitely 734 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: evolved over the years as I have grown closer to 735 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: the Lord. I think, if we're trying to pray better 736 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: prayers without drawing closer to the Lord, we're gonna miss it. 737 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: And so I went on this quest of Lord, I 738 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: want to know you. You're a God. We are the 739 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 1: only faith that serves a God who wants to be known. 740 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: No other God. You look at all of these other 741 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,919 Speaker 1: world religions, no other God is reaching out to say, 742 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: I want to know you, and I want to be known. 743 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,959 Speaker 1: And so the fact that we serve the sovereign God 744 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: of the universe blows my mind every time I think 745 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: about it. We serve the sovereign God of the universe, 746 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: and he makes himself available to us. We don't need 747 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: a priest, we don't need a mediator. We've got that 748 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 1: in Christ Praise God. But we get to go to 749 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: God directly. And so I said, Lord, I want to 750 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: I just want to get to know you. So how 751 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: would I get to know God? Well, how would I 752 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: get to know a friend. I have to spend time 753 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: with a friend. I'd have to learn about the things 754 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: that my friend likes. I have to, you know, make 755 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: space a lot of time, Like, well, I don't have 756 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: time to pray. I mean we got to make the 757 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: time because I don't know about how your life is 758 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: set up, Jamie. But I don't have like chunks of 759 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: time waiting for me, you know what I mean, Like 760 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: I've got a scheduled life. And so spending time with 761 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: the Lord. The more time that I spent with the 762 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: Lord in prayer and in reading his word, because that's 763 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: how God primarily reveals himself to us. So as I 764 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: begin to read the Word, I begin to see, oh wow, 765 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 1: God is so compassionate, or oh wow, God sometimes makes 766 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: us wait, but he hasn't forgotten about us just because 767 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: we're waiting. And then I started reading stories of what 768 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 1: God was doing while his people were waiting, and so 769 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: that informs my understanding of this God that I'm praying to. 770 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: That is what gave me the strength to continue to 771 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: pray all those years, because even though my prayers weren't 772 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: quote being answered, I had read about a God who 773 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: made Abraham and Sarah wait for twenty five years to 774 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: have a child, but even in that interim, he was 775 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: still working. I had read about a God who the 776 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: children of Israel cried out to for four hundred years 777 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: before he decided now was the time to send a 778 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: deliverer in Moses. And so throughout history, throughout reading the Word, 779 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: we see that we serve a God who acts, a 780 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: God who cares, a God who sees, a God who delivers. 781 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: And so when I started realizing, know, God, you are good. No, God, 782 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: you do hear me when I pray. I don't know 783 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: why the answers are delayed, but I know that you're good. 784 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: And so I know that even as a mom, my 785 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 1: kids asked me for stuff all the time that I 786 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: know they're not ready for. No good parent would give 787 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: their three year old keys to the car, you know 788 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: what I mean, You're not ready for that, even if 789 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 1: you have a really persuasive three year old, I mean 790 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: your three year old, like they really know how to 791 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: persuade you. They have great language, they've got good examples. 792 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: You're not going to give that three because you know 793 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,720 Speaker 1: they are not ready for that. And to be honest 794 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: with yeah, everybody right, And so to be honest, I 795 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 1: think sometimes we pray prayers that we're really not ready 796 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: for yet. I had to come to grips with that 797 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: when one day in prayer I really felt like the 798 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: Lord was speaking to me and said to me, what 799 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: are you going to do when I do redeem him? 800 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: Your heart is so bitter toward him. You won't even 801 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: know what to do with a redeemed husband. 802 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Right, that was like that is powerful, 803 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 2: powerful word there, Like. 804 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: Lord, why are you coming for me like this? But 805 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: he was it was true. I wasn't. I was not ready. 806 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: My heart posture was not ready to receive that. And 807 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 1: so then to answer the second party question, then we 808 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: begin to pray for ourselves. One of the most pivotal 809 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: books that I read early on was Stormy and Martians 810 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: The Power of Praying Wife, And then the very first chapter, 811 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: I believe it opens up with pray for you, you know, 812 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: pray for your husband's wife, which is you. 813 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was so good, any bunches, just yeah. 814 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: That's right. And so when you get weary, this is 815 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: why we have the Body of Christ, because there will 816 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: be times inevitably, when you just feel like I can't pray. 817 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: I don't have the strength, I don't have the stamina. 818 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't even have the desire. I just don't 819 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: you're apathetic, I don't care anymore. That's when you lean 820 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: on your community. And it doesn't have to be thirty people. 821 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 1: It can be a good girlfriend. It can be your pastor, 822 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: or your pastor's wife, or your pastor's husband if you 823 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: have a female pastor. It can be a mentor couple 824 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: at church. It can be anyone from the Christian community 825 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: that you're again willing to be real and transparent with 826 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: to say, you know what, I've been praying for my 827 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: husband for seven years and I'm not seeing any change. 828 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: Would you be praying with me? Because there's sometimes I 829 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: just can't pray. I just don't have it in me 830 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: to pray. And you lean on that community when you 831 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: feel like you don't have it within you to continue 832 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: to pray. And the final thing that I'll say is 833 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: that we have a great mediator. The Bible says that 834 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: Jesus is ever making intercession for us. That's comforting to 835 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: me to know that God's not dependent on my prayers. 836 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: He uses my prayers. He wants me to pray. But 837 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: the times where I feel like I just can't do it, 838 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 1: I've got a mediator. I've got an intercessor who's in 839 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: having pleading on my behalf. 840 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 2: Wow, I've never thought about it like that. I've heard 841 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 2: that many times, but I've never thought about it as 842 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 2: not only am I praying for things, but we have 843 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 2: an a mediator that is actively not just echoing our prayers. 844 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I believe the Holy Spirit can translate our 845 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 2: prayers into you know, if we think we want one 846 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 2: thing and then you know, maybe the Holy Spirit translates 847 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 2: it into the absolute best that might not be with 848 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 2: our limited perspective, we may not be able to articulate, 849 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 2: but that Jesus himself is actually actively interceding on our behalf. 850 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 2: And that is a beautiful picture. And it's comforting for 851 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,800 Speaker 2: those very moments that you're talking about when we don't 852 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 2: have it in us and we can just rest in Him. 853 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:12,839 Speaker 1: I love it. 854 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 855 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever had a situation where 856 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: you're praying for one thing and then you feel your 857 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: heart changing towards us. Yeah, that's the powerful prayers of 858 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 1: Jesus on our behalfs it is. 859 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 2: I love that. The thing I love about that is, 860 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I trust God to hear my prayers. I 861 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,359 Speaker 2: trust God that he can answer them, but I don't 862 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 2: always trust myself to know what to pray. And so 863 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,760 Speaker 2: when I am praying and I feel like a supernatural shift, 864 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 2: I'm just like, I wouldn't have come up with that. 865 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 2: That's got to be God. And then I can pray 866 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 2: with a little bit more like boldness and confidence and 867 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 2: excitement and anticipation, like, Okay, this must be really the 868 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 2: direction that he wants me to pray. And obviously we're 869 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 2: not perfect, none of us has a perfect track record 870 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,359 Speaker 2: and hearing from God. But I love those unexpects did 871 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 2: shifts in the way we pray when we kind of 872 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 2: like sense the Holy Spirit moving us in a different direction. 873 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: Totally? Yeah, absolutely. 874 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 2: So you say something a little controversial that I'm sure 875 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 2: people you know, I've heard this before and it always 876 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 2: gets all kinds of you know, people up in arms. 877 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 2: You right, that there is kind of this idea of 878 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 2: kids should always come first. You challenge that belief and 879 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 2: you say, no, kids should not always come first. Can 880 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,360 Speaker 2: you talk about that? Why you are you know, definitely 881 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 2: solid on that belief. And you know, what are some 882 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,959 Speaker 2: of the arguments you hear against it, and what would 883 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:40,319 Speaker 2: you say? 884 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely? I did a podcast episode I want to say 885 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: it was probably three years ago about why your children 886 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: should not come first in your marriage, and oh my goodness, 887 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: I can only imagine, and I was like, Okay, you 888 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: know what, let's have this conversation. I love it. So 889 00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 1: I believe that God's best example of covenant human relationship 890 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 1: is a marriage. We have obviously the new covenant that 891 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,479 Speaker 1: we receive in Christ Jesus. And so this is again 892 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,760 Speaker 1: to someone who's not married, You're not half of a human. 893 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: It's not like you can't experience the covenantal love of 894 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: the Lord without a spouse. You absolutely can. But God 895 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 1: chooses marriage. The Bible begins with a wedding Adam and Eve, 896 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: and it ends with a wedding and revelation with Christ 897 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 1: and the bridegroom. So marriage is a big deal to 898 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,280 Speaker 1: the Lord. It's this primary way that he reveals himself 899 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: image of God in both male and female together as one. 900 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: So to that end, it's very important. The relationship that 901 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: we have with our children is all together different. Our 902 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: children obviously come from us. If you've birthed children, they 903 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: are part of your DNA. But our role is really shepherd, leader, guide, 904 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: and we send them into the world, you know, to 905 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: fulfill their mission. When we get that out of order, 906 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,040 Speaker 1: when we start to put our children in between the 907 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 1: the Bible says, what God has joined together in Matthew right, 908 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: what God has joined together, Let no man separates talk 909 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,839 Speaker 1: about the husband and the wife. I don't know about 910 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: your children, Jamie, but my children have a spiritual gift 911 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: of trying to weasel their way in to what God 912 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: has joined together. Kids just do it. I remember when 913 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,760 Speaker 1: I was a kid, and you know I talk about 914 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: I didn't have the greatest example. My mom was in 915 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: a very dysfunctional marriage, but I remember at one point 916 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: I have this memory of her and my stepfather like 917 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 1: dancing in the kitchen, and I just scooted it in 918 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 1: between them, you know, I just wanted to be the 919 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 1: center of their world. Yes, you know, that's what kids do. 920 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 1: You're sitting on the couch with your spouse, and what 921 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 1: do they do? Come right in between you and they 922 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: want to sit there and be the center of your world. 923 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: And if we're not careful, we will allow that to happen. 924 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 1: I often talk to when I'm doing premarital coaching, especially 925 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,280 Speaker 1: if the couple has they're a blended family. I will say, 926 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: your children are going to try to separate you, not 927 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: because they're evil, but because we are just selfish beings. Inherently. 928 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:03,319 Speaker 1: No one has to teach us to do that. We 929 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: just are. You as the parent, have to make sure 930 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 1: that your children understand that they come second. So the 931 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,239 Speaker 1: way that my husband and I model this, and we've 932 00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: done this since the time our kids were little, is 933 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: if we're talking and a child comes to interrupt, we 934 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,320 Speaker 1: will say, I'm sorry, I'm talking to dad right now, 935 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 1: give me a minute, and then I'll go back to 936 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,840 Speaker 1: my conversation with him, modeling you're not more important to 937 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 1: me than he is. Now. Obviously, if the child is 938 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: bleeding or you know, there's some sort of emergency, you 939 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,400 Speaker 1: deal with that. But I'm talking about you know, mommy, 940 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: can I have a lollipop? Oh mommy, my friend was 941 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 1: mean to me, or whatever kids do. And so the 942 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: reason that I think this is controversial is because I 943 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,240 Speaker 1: mean many things. I think when the church starts taking 944 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: cues from culture, we're in trouble. Culture does not honor marriage, 945 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,360 Speaker 1: it just doesn't. They see marriages maybe a good idea, 946 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 1: maybe a financially advantageous you know, setup but they're not 947 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,879 Speaker 1: looking at marriage as a covenant. And so therefore the 948 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: marriage relationship is not prioritized in the culture, so parent 949 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 1: child relationship is. And we have to be careful as 950 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: the Church Capital c Church that we don't take our 951 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: cues from culture. That we look in scripture and we say, okay, Lord, 952 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,759 Speaker 1: you talk about marriage all throughout the scripture, and we 953 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,880 Speaker 1: have directives on how to be good parents, but you 954 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,400 Speaker 1: don't prioritize that parent child relationship to the same degree 955 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: that you prioritize the husband wife relationship. And I've seen 956 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,919 Speaker 1: it in practical terms being played out when spouses put 957 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: their children before them their spouses. It's called great divorce. 958 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: We see that time and time again. Where a great 959 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,720 Speaker 1: divorce is usually when a couple either after twenty years 960 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,960 Speaker 1: or after they're older, will divorce. Usually it's once they 961 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,319 Speaker 1: become empty nesters, because they pour their whole lives into 962 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: these children, who will leave you like hopefully they're supposed 963 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: to launch, right, So they leave and now you're stuck 964 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,080 Speaker 1: with the stranger that you don't know because you've prioritized 965 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: that child relationship. And so then the couples get divorced 966 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: because they're like, I don't even know who I'm married to. 967 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: I don't know this person. And so my husband and 968 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,640 Speaker 1: I throughout everything that we've been through, I write a 969 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 1: testimony in the book about my daughter, who is twenty 970 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,000 Speaker 1: three years old. She's to complain when we would go 971 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: out on dates all the time, why do you have 972 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: to go out? It's not fair. I want to go 973 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,680 Speaker 1: Why can't you take me all the things? And we 974 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,360 Speaker 1: prioritize that date night, We prioritize no, and I, you know, 975 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,120 Speaker 1: a tongue in cheek. I write about this in the 976 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: book and I would say, you know, I've known him 977 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,840 Speaker 1: longer than i've known you. And so, but now that 978 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,960 Speaker 1: she's twenty three, she has said to us mom, dad, 979 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much for the time that you invested 980 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: in your marriage. It's shown me what a godly example is. 981 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:42,840 Speaker 1: That's great. 982 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's kind of like the idea of, 983 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,840 Speaker 2: you know, thank you mom and dad for setting boundaries 984 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 2: when I was a crazy kid, because I know I 985 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 2: would have gotten into way more trouble. It's that kind 986 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 2: of thing. Thank you for setting boundaries around your marriage, 987 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 2: even though I didn't like it at the time. Even 988 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,720 Speaker 2: though it bothered me to see you guys dancing together, 989 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,840 Speaker 2: it bothered me that you went out to nice restaurants 990 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,480 Speaker 2: without me or whatever. But they can see and retrospect 991 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,840 Speaker 2: what you were protecting, and I think that's just really 992 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 2: very cool. I love that you have kids old enough 993 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 2: to reflect back now so that we can, you know, 994 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 2: see that big picture and so you can absolutely, yeah, 995 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,600 Speaker 2: well we're getting we're kind of getting to the end. 996 00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,840 Speaker 2: There's I have, Like I had a ton of questions 997 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,279 Speaker 2: for you. I knew we would never get back. I 998 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 2: think we got through half of them. But I guess 999 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,680 Speaker 2: our listeners will just have to read your book. This 1000 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,799 Speaker 2: is an incredible book and your ministry is amazing. Can 1001 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,759 Speaker 2: you just tell us a little bit about where our 1002 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 2: listeners can find you online and connect with you on 1003 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 2: social media and find your book, which is. 1004 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,239 Speaker 1: Absolutely really yay. Yeah, I would love for people to 1005 00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,720 Speaker 1: connect with me on my website. It's Danashay dot com 1006 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: like Shaye Butter, but it's spelled d A N A 1007 00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,120 Speaker 1: c che dot com. To make it even easier. You 1008 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,000 Speaker 1: want to just find out the details of the book, 1009 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,400 Speaker 1: you can go to Tried in True marriagebook dot com. 1010 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,680 Speaker 1: And I'm also running like a promotion right now where 1011 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,720 Speaker 1: there's a free five day devotional that will give people 1012 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,680 Speaker 1: kind of a taste of what this book is. So 1013 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,239 Speaker 1: this would be a great way to start. You know, 1014 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to again give people a resource on how 1015 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: to connect with their spouses spiritually. But maybe your spouse 1016 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 1: isn't going to read a book with you. A you 1017 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,120 Speaker 1: can read it alone. You don't have to read it 1018 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,120 Speaker 1: with your spouse, but be also get that free five 1019 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: day devotional. It's very short. I send just five quick 1020 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,640 Speaker 1: devotionals every day and you can just talk about it. 1021 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,760 Speaker 1: There's conversation starters in the book and in the devotional. 1022 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,880 Speaker 1: I'm really big on those because a lot of times, 1023 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:43,840 Speaker 1: like we know the conversations that we should have, we 1024 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: just don't know how to start them. And so the 1025 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,760 Speaker 1: conversation starters are in the book and in the devotional. 1026 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 1: So again, people can access all of that at Tried 1027 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,400 Speaker 1: and True marriagebook dot com. 1028 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,560 Speaker 2: Okay, we will link to that for sure, and then 1029 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 2: you have a podcast on the life Audio podcast Network. 1030 00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,480 Speaker 2: It's Rebuilding Us Marriage podcast. 1031 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: That's Rebuilding Us and that new episodes every Tuesday. Again, 1032 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: we're going into our sixth year and we have not 1033 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: missed a Tuesday yet, and so glory to God for 1034 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:14,400 Speaker 1: that love doing the podcast. 1035 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,960 Speaker 2: I love it well. Thank you Dana. It was awesome 1036 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,680 Speaker 2: having you back on the podcast. And how can we 1037 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 2: pray for you? I'm going to close in prayer, thank. 1038 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,080 Speaker 1: You, Jamie. I just pray for my marriage. You know, 1039 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,360 Speaker 1: anytime that you're on the front lines, like the enemy 1040 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,279 Speaker 1: is definitely trying to attack, and so just pray for 1041 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,440 Speaker 1: my own marriage, that the Lord will can keep it protected, 1042 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,759 Speaker 1: that will keep us strong, that will continue to love 1043 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:38,640 Speaker 1: each other, forgive all the things. 1044 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,200 Speaker 2: That was a question I was going to ask you 1045 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,760 Speaker 2: also that I'm glad you brought up. Was many times 1046 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,720 Speaker 2: when I'm either doing ministry related to a topic, writing 1047 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 2: on a topic, I feel like the attacks come in 1048 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 2: that area. And so yeah, we will pray protection for 1049 00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,800 Speaker 2: you for sure, because yeah, you're on the front lines. 1050 00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,719 Speaker 2: All right, all righty, let's pray God. Thank you so 1051 00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,160 Speaker 2: much for Dana. Thank you for her testimony, thank you 1052 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 2: for her husband and just the ways that you have 1053 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:16,360 Speaker 2: redeemed that marriage and just used it to minister to 1054 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,480 Speaker 2: people who are struggling and hurting, and to take what 1055 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,919 Speaker 2: the enemy intended for evil and use it for your 1056 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,720 Speaker 2: absolute good. And we just continue to pray for open 1057 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,680 Speaker 2: doors for Dana, for her ministry, for her podcast, for 1058 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,759 Speaker 2: her book to just reach more people than she ever 1059 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,759 Speaker 2: could have imagined. We pray just that you would be 1060 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,400 Speaker 2: glorified through all of those different ministries that she's doing. 1061 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,839 Speaker 2: We pray for her marriage. God, we lift her up 1062 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 2: and just pray that she and her husband would be 1063 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,640 Speaker 2: protected from the enemy. Like when Jesus sent his disciples out, 1064 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,120 Speaker 2: he said not that you would take them out of 1065 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,239 Speaker 2: the world, but that you would protect them from the 1066 00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,680 Speaker 2: evil one. That you would just put a hedge and 1067 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,279 Speaker 2: a bubble of protection around on them. That you would 1068 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,440 Speaker 2: preserve their marriage, That you would just allow them to 1069 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 2: continue to be growing closer to each other as they 1070 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,000 Speaker 2: grow closer to you. We just pray that you would 1071 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,640 Speaker 2: prevent the enemy from wedging himself between them, that you 1072 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 2: would just allow them to continue to grow in their 1073 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,640 Speaker 2: marriage and continue to serve others through their testimony, through 1074 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,560 Speaker 2: their ministry. And we just know that you are faithful 1075 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,840 Speaker 2: to do that in Jesus' name. Amen. 1076 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,800 Speaker 1: Amen, thank you for that. Jamie. 1077 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,239 Speaker 2: Do you love true crime but feel like it's a 1078 00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 2: guilty pleasure because of the swearing and explicit content. If so, 1079 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 2: I can't wait to tell you the good news. Alana 1080 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,440 Speaker 2: and I just launched our brand new podcast, Christian True 1081 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:54,120 Speaker 2: Crime Junkies, a squeaky clean crime show for believers. Each 1082 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,600 Speaker 2: week we bring you unforgettable testimonies of survival, stories of justice, 1083 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,920 Speaker 2: and tales of redemption. And yes, sometimes plain old murder, 1084 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:08,800 Speaker 2: always clean, always from a Christian perspective. Listen to Christian 1085 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,759 Speaker 2: True Crime Junkies today wherever you listen to podcasts, and 1086 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,839 Speaker 2: don't forget to follow us. New episodes come out every 1087 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:23,120 Speaker 2: week and you don't want to miss out. We'd like 1088 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,040 Speaker 2: to take just a quick second to thank the team 1089 00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,960 Speaker 2: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast. 1090 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,000 Speaker 2: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you will find 1091 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,120 Speaker 2: dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've 1092 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:38,000 Speaker 2: got shows about prayer, Bible studying, parenting, and so much more. 1093 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:43,520 Speaker 2: That's lifeaudio dot Com.