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Speaker 1: The President of the United States made history again today.

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Speaker 1: He's the first president that we know of to sit

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Speaker 1: and hear arguments before the Supreme Court. And it makes

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Speaker 1: sense because it's his executive order that's in question right now.

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Speaker 1: In executive order banning the enforcement is so called birthright citizenship.

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Speaker 1: So that baby is born in the United States two

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Speaker 1: parents who are not citizens of this country and who

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Speaker 1: obviously have an allegiance and are citizens of another country. Well,

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Speaker 1: those babies aren't automatic citizens. Seems obvious, doesn't it. Well

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Speaker 1: maybe not, and we're going to get to that story

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Speaker 1: in just one minute. But first, you know, we talk

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Speaker 1: about government fraud and waste a lot here on the program,

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Speaker 1: and for medicare enrlies, well, they become a prime target

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Speaker 1: of fraudulent activity. You probably saw in the news recently

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Speaker 1: that Trump's DOJ went after some of the largest medicare

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Speaker 1: brokers in the country for claiming they were unbiased all

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Speaker 1: the while they were secretly steering people into the plans

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Speaker 1: that paid them the most. And the part that people

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Speaker 1: need to understand is in a lot of cases that

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Speaker 1: behavior is legal, but it doesn't mean it's in your

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Speaker 1: best interest. A lot of agents aren't really working for you.

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Speaker 1: They're working for the insurance company. And that's why I

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Speaker 1: point people, including my own mother, to chapter Chapter does

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Speaker 1: Medicare differently. Their advisors are salaried, so they're not pushing

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Speaker 1: plans based on commissions. In fact, they're the only Medicare

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Speaker 1: advisor that actually compares every plan available nationwide, not just

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Speaker 1: the select few. There's no cost to talk to them,

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Speaker 1: and in most cases they can review your options in

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Speaker 1: about twenty minutes. So if you're turning sixty five or

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Speaker 1: already on Medicare, call Chapter the numbers five eight zero

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Speaker 1: three zero eight zero nine seven five. Honestly, other than

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Speaker 1: watching this show, I can think of a better use

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Speaker 1: of twenty minutes. Now back to the video. This was

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Speaker 1: the scene yesterday in the Oval Office when the President

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Speaker 1: dropped the big bomb about what he'd be doing this morning.

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Speaker 2: If this Supreme Court tomorrow is going to hear arguments

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Speaker 2: about your executive or or trying to get rid of

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Speaker 2: birthright citizenship.

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Speaker 3: And I'm going you're going to go to this take someone.

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Speaker 3: I do believe it because I have listened to this

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Speaker 3: argument for so long, and this is not about Chinese

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Speaker 3: billionaires or billionaires from other countries who all of a

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Speaker 3: sudden have seventy five children, or fifty nine children in

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Speaker 3: one case, or ten children becoming American citizens. This was

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Speaker 3: about slaves. And if you take a look slaves, we're

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Speaker 3: talking about slaves from the Civil War. And if you

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Speaker 3: take a look at when it was filed, all of

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Speaker 3: this legislation, all of this everything having to do with

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Speaker 3: birthright citizenship. It was at the end of the Civil War.

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Speaker 3: The reason was it had to do with the babies

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Speaker 3: of slaves and the protection of the babies of slaves.

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Speaker 3: It didn't have to do with the protection of multi

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Speaker 3: millionaires and billionaires wanting to have their children get an

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Speaker 3: American citizenship. It is the craziest thing I've ever seen.

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Speaker 3: It's been so badly handled by legal people over the years.

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Speaker 3: If you look at the original birthright citizenship papers, they

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Speaker 3: all happened right after the Civil War. The reason was

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Speaker 3: that had to do with the babies of slaves.

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Speaker 1: He's one hundred percent right. And anybody who has a

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Speaker 1: basic understanding of the fourteenth Amendment being invoked now to

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Speaker 1: suggest that anyone born in this country is automatically a citizen, well,

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Speaker 1: it's obvious, first of all, there's a legit language in

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Speaker 1: there about babies born in this country or people being

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Speaker 1: born in this country that have an allegiance to another country.

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Speaker 1: Right in the fourteenth Amendment was passed along with the

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Speaker 1: thirteenth Amendment. The two went hand in hand. Thirteenth Amendment,

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Speaker 1: of course, as you know, because well you didn't go

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Speaker 1: to public school. Thirteenth Amendment freed the slaves slavery. It

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Speaker 1: abolished slavery in America. The fourteenth Amendment had to go

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Speaker 1: with it because if you abolished the slaves, and it's like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you do with all these people? What do

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Speaker 1: you do? Are they allowed to stay? Are they citizens?

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Speaker 1: And the fourteenth of Thement said, yeah, they are because

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Speaker 1: they were brought here against their will by Democrats mostly,

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Speaker 1: and so obviously everybody knows that. So what did it

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Speaker 1: look like today? The President leaves the White House, gets

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Speaker 1: into the motorcade, travels the mile up Pennsylvania Avenue and

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Speaker 1: sits in the Supreme Court. Amazing, Just imagine the scene

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Speaker 1: with Donald Trump sitting there, the author of this executive

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Speaker 1: order that is now being challenged by the nine justices

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Speaker 1: on the Supreme Court, his Solicitor General John Sower began

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Speaker 1: the oral arguments.

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Speaker 4: This conclusion reflects the original public meeting of the clause.

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Speaker 4: When Congress used the term not subject to any foreign

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Speaker 4: power in the Civil Rights Act of eighteen sixty six,

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Speaker 4: it rejected the British conception of allegiance. Senator Trumbull explained

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Speaker 4: that subject to the jurisdiction there ravin the clause means

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Speaker 4: not owing allegiance to anybody else, and in eighteen eighty

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Speaker 4: four this Court recognize that subject of the jurisdiction means

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Speaker 4: owing direct and immediate allegiance. The clause thus does not

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Speaker 4: extend citizenship to the children of temporary visa holders or

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Speaker 4: illegal aliens. Unlike the newly freed slaves, those visitors lack

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Speaker 4: direct and immediate allegiance to the United States.

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Speaker 5: For aliens, lawful domicile is.

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Speaker 4: The status that creates the requisite allegiance, and the text

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Speaker 4: of the clause presupposes domicile for decades following the clauses adoption.

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Speaker 4: Commentators recognize that the children of temporary visitors are not citizens.

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Speaker 1: Obviously obviously, and later on we'll show you can actually

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Speaker 1: take the words of the actual author of the fourteen Amendment,

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Speaker 1: who said, clearly, we're not talking about people who are

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Speaker 1: here in the country temporarily and are obviously citizens of

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Speaker 1: other countries. I'll show that to you in just a second.

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Speaker 1: And it came up during the arguments today. Let me

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Speaker 1: go back to when we passed the fourteenth Amendment, and

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Speaker 1: they were having a debate about the fourteenth Amendment on

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Speaker 1: the floor of the House of Representatives. And I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be one of the congressmen who has a question

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Speaker 1: about the fourteenth Amendment. All right, I'm just gonna quickly

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Speaker 1: give you a little play acting here. Excuse me, point

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Speaker 1: of order. I'd like to ask question about this fourteenth Amendment.

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Speaker 1: So let's just say hypothetically that one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: years from now, down in Florida, they carve out a

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Speaker 1: portion of that swamp down there and they create a

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Speaker 1: thing called disney World. I'm just saying, hypothetically, let's say

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Speaker 1: they create a thing called Disney World. It's got a

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Speaker 1: castle and stuff. I know, we don't like kings here.

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Speaker 1: We're a new country and we hated the king. But

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Speaker 1: let's just say we had a castle and it's a

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Speaker 1: fairy tale land, and it's got a bunch of really

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Speaker 1: funky things, including pretend spaceships. And I know I'll explain

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Speaker 1: the spaceship part later. Let's work with me on my hypothetical.

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Speaker 1: All right, sir, thank you very much. So let's say

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Speaker 1: a family of four along with an expectant mother, travels

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Speaker 1: here on a big flying machine and goes to Florida

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Speaker 1: to visit Disney World for a week. It's their vacation.

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Speaker 1: Everyone around the world wants to visit this place. It's amazing.

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Speaker 6: And that.

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Speaker 1: Mother, along with her two children and her husband, she's expecting.

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Speaker 1: She's at Disney World and she goes into premature labor. Now,

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Speaker 1: these people are from a completely foreign country. These people

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Speaker 1: are from Russia, all right, they're Russians. They're only here

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Speaker 1: for a week for a vacation. They're tourists. They're at

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Speaker 1: Disney World. She goes into premature labor because one of

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Speaker 1: the roller coasters sort of agitates things there. I'll explain

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Speaker 1: what a roller coaster is later. She goes into premature labor,

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Speaker 1: she gives birth to the baby. Surely you're not telling

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Speaker 1: me that that baby should automatically be a US citizen, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there is here on a tourist visa celebrating

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Speaker 1: a vacation for a while week from Russia. What do

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Speaker 1: you think the congressman would say, I mean, if they

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Speaker 1: got past all the hypotheticals about traveling into the future

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Speaker 1: and flying machines in a big castle in Florida, what

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Speaker 1: do you think the answer would be? Obviously not add

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Speaker 1: to that the idea that people are pregnant and they

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Speaker 1: illegally cross our border bypassing the border patrol and law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: lie and deceive to stay in the country. Then they

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Speaker 1: give birth and suddenly boom, that kid's a citizen. And now,

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Speaker 1: of course the parents got to stay. There's no chance

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Speaker 1: at the fourteenth Amendment was ever intended to do that.

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Speaker 1: But see, you and I we have common sense. I

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Speaker 1: wish I could say the same about the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: justices today, some of them that we were kind of

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Speaker 1: counting on. I'll show you the disconcerting skepticism they displayed.

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Speaker 1: But first we're talking about intelligence and life logic and education. Well,

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Speaker 1: then we've got to start with Katanji Brown Jackson. It

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Speaker 1: was everything you expected.

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Speaker 5: How does this work?

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Speaker 7: Are you suggesting that when a baby is born people

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Speaker 7: have to have documents present documents? Is this happening in

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Speaker 7: the delivery room. How are we determining when or whether

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Speaker 7: a newborn child is a citizen of the United States

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Speaker 7: under your rule?

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Speaker 4: I think that's directly addressing the SSA guidance that citing

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Speaker 4: in our brief. What SSA says is there's currently a

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Speaker 4: system where, for example, security social Security numbers are generated

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Speaker 4: based on the birth certificate. They say, this can still

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Speaker 4: be for the vast majority of institute's completely transparent.

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Speaker 5: You will still get it.

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Speaker 7: You're not transparent. I'm just talking about the particulars because

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Speaker 7: now you say your rule turns on whether the person

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Speaker 7: intended to stay in the United States, And I think

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Speaker 7: Justice Barrett brought this up. So we're bringing pregnant women

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Speaker 7: in for depositions.

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Speaker 1: I'm oh, wait, I'm sorry, I just got to throw

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Speaker 1: a flag here. Did you hear what you just said?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love the whole thing. How are we

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Speaker 1: even supposed to know if these people are you gonna

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Speaker 1: be citizens or not?

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Speaker 6: How can we figure this out?

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Speaker 1: Well, how about when you check somebody into the hospital

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Speaker 1: to give birth, you actually, you know, check to see

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Speaker 1: if they're citizens and if they have any legal documentation

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Speaker 1: and if they don't, then the baby's gonna not be

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Speaker 1: a citizen.

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Speaker 6: But did you hear what she said there?

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Speaker 7: You say your rule turns on whether the person intended

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Speaker 7: to stay in the United States? And I think Justice

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Speaker 7: Barrett brought this up. So we're bringing pregnant women in

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Speaker 7: for depositions.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, who is going to get the deposition pregnant women?

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Speaker 1: Has she learned something in the last few years since

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Speaker 1: you got confirmed? Is she now affirming the fact that

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Speaker 1: it's women who get pregnant and have babies? Why is

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Speaker 1: she being so discriminatory? Why is she being such a bigot?

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Speaker 1: What about pregnant men? Why didn't she say birthing people?

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Speaker 1: What did you hear what I heard? It's almost like

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Speaker 1: it Anjie Brown Jackson's Supreme Court justice thinks that, first

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Speaker 1: of all, there is a biological difference between men and women,

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Speaker 1: and secondly that it's the women who get pregnant. I'm impressed.

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Speaker 1: I have to say, she's come a long way. She

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Speaker 1: now understands what most three and four year olds figure

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Speaker 1: out all by themselves. That's said, let's hear the rest

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Speaker 1: of the exchange.

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Speaker 7: What are we doing to figure this out?

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Speaker 8: Now?

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Speaker 4: As I pointed out earlier, the executive order turns on

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Speaker 4: lawfulness of stats.

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Speaker 5: So if you give birth to a.

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Speaker 4: Baby in the hospital right now, it gets the birth

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Speaker 4: certificate in the system.

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Speaker 5: There's a computer system, so there's no opportunity.

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Speaker 7: There's apparently no opportunity then for the person to prove

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Speaker 7: or to say that they actually intended to stay in

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Speaker 7: the United.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely not, the opposite is true. Their opportunity to dispute

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Speaker 4: if they think they were wrongly denied, which would only

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Speaker 4: happen in tiny minority of cases.

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Speaker 5: After this directly addressed me that.

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Speaker 7: Gout after the fact, after their baby has been denied citizenship,

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Speaker 7: then we can go through the process and.

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Speaker 4: The way that I mean, I'm summarizing because I'm not

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Speaker 4: an extually computers, but there's a computer program that currently

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Speaker 4: automatically it's a social security number. As I say, he says,

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Speaker 4: look a social security number. Non citizens can have them

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Speaker 4: if they work authorizations. Who doesn't prove citizenship, We'll give

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Speaker 4: you a social Security number. Provided that there's the system

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Speaker 4: automatically checks the immigrations to ask the parents which their

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Speaker 4: robust databases for and then appears no different to the

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Speaker 4: vast majority of birthing parents.

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Speaker 6: That's right.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, while we're at it, let's put

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Speaker 1: that system in at every employer right now so that

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Speaker 1: they can check as well. But it's like we're having

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Speaker 1: the argument over the Save Act. By the way, can

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Speaker 1: you imagine what it must have been like, how hard

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Speaker 1: it was for President Trump for over an hour to

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Speaker 1: sit through all of this and not say anything, you know,

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Speaker 1: when this one is asking questions, but we could ask

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Speaker 1: at that position of the mother, how are we going

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Speaker 1: to figure this out?

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Speaker 8: You know?

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Speaker 6: He doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Oh, for fuck's sake, but he didn't. He behaved himself

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Speaker 1: as far as we know. Chief Justice John Roberts took

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Speaker 1: up some questioning and listen this listener, General mister Sower

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Speaker 1: did a great job.

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Speaker 6: He did.

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Speaker 1: I'm worry that it doesn't matter because in many cases

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Speaker 1: these justices already have their minds made up before we

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Speaker 1: have the hearing. And if you listen to the way

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Speaker 1: the Chief Justice asks questions, you can recognize that he's,

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Speaker 1: let's just say, skeptical about ending birthright citizens show.

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Speaker 8: Well, starting with that theory, you obviously put a lot

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Speaker 8: of weight on subject to the jurisdiction thereof, But the

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Speaker 8: examples you give to support that strike me as very quirky.

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Speaker 8: You know, children of ambassadors, children of enemies during a

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Speaker 8: hostile invasion, children on warships, and then you expand it

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Speaker 8: to the whole class of illegal aliens are here in

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Speaker 8: the country. I'm not quite sure how you can get

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Speaker 8: to that big group from such tiny and sort of

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Speaker 8: idiosyncratic examples.

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Speaker 4: There are those sort of narrow exceptions for ambassador forign

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Speaker 4: public ships, tribal, anious, enormous one that they were very

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Speaker 4: focused on in the debates as well. But what I

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Speaker 4: do is I invite the court to look at the

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Speaker 4: intervening step, which is the enactment of the Civil Rights

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Speaker 4: Activity eighteen sixty six. And there they didn't say subject

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Speaker 4: to the jurisdiction thereof There it says not subject to

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Speaker 4: any foreign power. Now, if you go back to Blackstone

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Speaker 4: in Calvin's case, they say it does not matter if

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Speaker 4: you were subject to any foreign power. If you were

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Speaker 4: born in the king's domains, you have this indefeasible duty

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Speaker 4: of allegiance to the king at any time. So there's

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Speaker 4: a clear repudiation in the Civil Rights Act. The Civil

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Speaker 4: Rightsack is this breakwater which makes it very very clear

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Speaker 4: that they are not thinking about allegiance in the terms

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Speaker 4: of like the British common law. They've adopted the Republican

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Speaker 4: conception of allegiance, so it's from not subject to any

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Speaker 4: foreign power. And then the debates just a couple months

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Speaker 4: later make it very clear that they're recodifying the same conception.

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Speaker 4: They were dissatisfied with the potential ambiguity in the phrase

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Speaker 4: Indians non tax and they adopted subjct to the jurisdiction

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Speaker 4: there up. And one of the strongest statements of this

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Speaker 4: is Senator Trumbull statements that quoted at the beginning, where

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Speaker 4: he says he's asked, what does that mean sub to

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Speaker 4: the jurisdiction there us and he says, it means not

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Speaker 4: owing allegiance to anybody else.

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Speaker 5: That is what it means.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And we're going to dive a little deeper

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Speaker 1: into that because that does seem to be the big

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Speaker 1: crux of the language of the fourteen Amendment that this

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Speaker 1: hinges on. It's not a question of whether you were

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Speaker 1: born here, is whether you were born here from parents

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Speaker 1: who have allegiance to a foreign power. And a great

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Speaker 1: way to prove that you no longer have allegiance to

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Speaker 1: a foreign power is to go through the process of

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Speaker 1: legally immigrating and becoming a citizen. And if you don't

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Speaker 1: do that, and in fact you violate our laws to

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Speaker 1: come to this country for a job or for money,

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Speaker 1: or for visiting Disney World, well that proves that you're

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Speaker 1: not actually swearing allegiance to our nation. All right, let's

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Speaker 1: move on to some of the good guys. Justice Alito

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Speaker 1: put it rather perfectly.

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Speaker 2: And that they had in mind when they adopted the

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Speaker 2: general rule. Or do we say they adopted a general rule,

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Speaker 2: They meant for that to apply to later applications that

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Speaker 2: might come up. Justice Scalia had an example that dealt

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Speaker 2: with this situation. He imagined an old Thufts that was,

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Speaker 2: it acted well before anybody conceived of a microwave oven.

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Speaker 2: And then afterwards someone is charged with the crime.

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Speaker 6: Of stealing a microwave oven.

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Speaker 2: And this fellow says, well, I can't be convicted under

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Speaker 2: this because the microwave oven didn't exist at that time,

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Speaker 2: And he dismissed that. There's a general rule there, and

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Speaker 2: you'll apply it to future applications. And what we're dealing

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Speaker 2: with here is something that was basically unknown at the

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Speaker 2: time when the fourteenth Amendment was adopted, which is illegal immigration.

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Speaker 2: So how did we deal with that situation when we

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Speaker 2: have a general rule?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I strongly agree with the way that you framed it,

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Speaker 4: that there is a general principle, that's a broad principle

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Speaker 4: that's adopted.

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Speaker 5: The phrase under the jurisdiction thereof.

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Speaker 4: And we submit that our theory of allegiance and domicile

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Speaker 4: based allegiance what explains those specific exceptions that everybody was

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Speaker 4: aware of, but it is broad enough to sweep in

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Speaker 4: future situations. And as you pointed out, illegal immigration did

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Speaker 4: not exist then. Now the problem of temporary visitors did exist.

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Speaker 4: And it's very interesting that as you look at pages

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Speaker 4: twenty six and twenty eight of our brief, commentators going

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Speaker 4: from you know, eighteen eighty one until nineteen twenty two

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Speaker 4: are uniformly saying that children of temporary visitors are not included. Now,

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Speaker 4: that logic we say, it's a naturally extends. It's really

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Speaker 4: an aw force uri case. If you are someone who

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Speaker 4: enters illegally. By the eighteen eighties, there are restrictions on immigration.

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Speaker 4: If you've entered illegally, it's kind of you know, a

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Speaker 4: well established principle of law, going back to the Code

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Speaker 4: of Justinian that says you're not allowed to be there.

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Speaker 4: You cannot you don't have a legal capacity to create

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Speaker 4: domicile of it.

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Speaker 9: But I think general Salary that what you just said

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Speaker 9: suggests that you can't be arguing in the way Justice

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Speaker 9: Alito suggests because most of your brief it's not about

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Speaker 9: illegal aliens. Most of your brief is about people who

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Speaker 9: are just temporarily in the country where there was quite

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Speaker 9: clearly an experience of an understanding of that they were

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Speaker 9: going to be temporary inhabited.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll get to you in a minute. Atlantic Kagan.

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Speaker 1: We got plenty to say about your arguments, but you

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Speaker 1: heard Alita when I Falida, we're making this decision. By himself,

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Speaker 1: this would be over, but he's not. So we got

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Speaker 1: to get back to Chief Justice Roberts and listen, guys,

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Speaker 1: I want to make you feel good about the news.

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Speaker 1: I want to put a spring in your step. I

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Speaker 1: try to put a smile on your face even when

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Speaker 1: the news is bad. But you don't come here for hopium.

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Speaker 1: You don't come here for some sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna blow anything up your skirt. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know what that means. And I'm not one of

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Speaker 1: those guys who's gonna say we're gonna send Hillary to GETMO.

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Speaker 6: Don't worry.

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Speaker 1: She's gonna be an orange jumpsuit. They're gonna purp walk

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Speaker 1: her and James Comy, they're gonna be in handcuffs. I'm

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Speaker 1: ready to no, I don't do that. I tell you

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Speaker 1: like it is. And sadly, sometimes I'm pretty cynical about

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Speaker 1: this stuff, but optimistic. I'm an optimistic cynic didn't look good.

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Speaker 1: It didn't look good for ending birthright citizenships. John Roberts

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Speaker 1: is going to be a critical vote. So here's a

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Speaker 1: little bit more from the Chief Justice, so you can decide.

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Speaker 4: Based on Chinese media reports, there are five hundred five

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Speaker 4: hundred birth tourism companies in the People's Republic of China,

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Speaker 4: who's what business is to bring people here to give

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Speaker 4: birth and reachur learned to that nation.

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Speaker 8: Having said all that, you do agree that that has

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Speaker 8: no impact on the legal analysis before us.

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Speaker 4: I think it's I quote what Justice Clia said in

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Speaker 4: his Homdan descent, where they have like their interpretation has

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Speaker 4: these implications that could not possibly have been approved by

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Speaker 4: the nineteenth century framers of this amendment. I think that

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Speaker 4: shows that they've made a mess. Their interpretation has made

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Speaker 4: a mess of the provision.

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Speaker 8: Well, it certainly wasn't a problem in the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 4: No, But of course we're in a new world now,

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Speaker 4: is Justice Leader pointed out to where eight billion people

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Speaker 4: are one plane ride away from having a child who's

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Speaker 4: a US citizen.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's a new world. It's the same constitution, it is.

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Speaker 4: And as Justice Clia said, I think in the case

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Speaker 4: that Justice Leader was referring to, you've got a consocial

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Speaker 4: provision that addresses certain evils, and it should be extended

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Speaker 4: to reasonly comparable evils. He said that about stash stor interpretation.

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Speaker 4: I think the same principle applies here. And I think

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Speaker 4: we quote that in our brief thank you Justice.

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Speaker 6: To new world.

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Speaker 1: Same constitution is going to be a quote that you're

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Speaker 1: going to be hearing repeated over and over and over

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Speaker 1: again with regard to these arguments. And it displays a

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Speaker 1: level of skepticism there that a Chief Justice Roberts seems

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Speaker 1: to have on this doesn't matter if this thing's being exploited,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if the language of the fourteenth Amendment

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Speaker 1: is now being twisted in such a way that allows

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Speaker 1: people to fly here on pregnancy tourism mission so that

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Speaker 1: they can have a baby, especially people from other countries

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Speaker 1: who mean us ill, like the Chinese. No, none of

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Speaker 1: that matters, because it's the same old Constitution.

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Speaker 6: Listen.

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Speaker 1: I'm a traditionalist, and I love sticking with the original

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Speaker 1: interpretation of the Constitution. I'm an originalist. Absolutely. It would

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Speaker 1: make more sense and carry more weight if it didn't

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Speaker 1: come from John Roberts, a man who decided that a

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Speaker 1: mandate that you buy health insurance is the same as

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Speaker 1: Congress taxing you. That's what he decided on Obamacare. So

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Speaker 1: spare me the same old constitution garbage there, mister Chief Justice, respectfully. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so it looks like we don't have Roberts. What about

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Speaker 1: Amy Cony Barrett. Where do you think she stands on this? Well,

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Speaker 1: I regret to say.

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Speaker 6: That's as skeptical, okay, And let's talk about it.

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Speaker 10: It's applications, so you know, there are some I can

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Speaker 10: imagine it being messy and some applications. So how what

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Speaker 10: would you do with what the common law called foundlings?

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Speaker 10: You know, the thing about this is then you have

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Speaker 10: to adjudicate if you're looking at parents, and if you're

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Speaker 10: looking at parents domicile, then you have to adjudicate both

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Speaker 10: residents and intent to say, what if you don't know

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Speaker 10: who the parents are.

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Speaker 5: I think there are.

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Speaker 4: Marginal cases that one I think has the benefit of

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Speaker 4: being addressed in fourteen oh one.

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Speaker 5: F word talks about this.

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Speaker 10: Yah, yeah, yeah, but what about the constitution.

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Speaker 4: Under the Constitution, it's it's domina I mean, look, there

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Speaker 4: are domicile is a constitutional standard in all kinds.

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Speaker 5: Of other situations.

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Speaker 10: Well, and it's hard.

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Speaker 5: First jurisdiction, personal jurisdictions are.

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Speaker 10: Well yeah, and a personal jurisdiction I mean thirteen thirty

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Speaker 10: two diversity jurisdiction. And the thing is it has to

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Speaker 10: be litigated because it turns on intent and both the

439
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 10: virtue of both you so and you sanguineous, whichever one

440
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 10: you pick. It's a bright line rule. How would it work?

441
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 10: How would you adjudicate these cases? You're not going to

442
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 10: know at the time of birth for some people whether

443
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 10: they have the intent to stay or not, including US citizens.

444
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 10: By the way, I mean, what if you have someone

445
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 10: who is living in Norway with their husband and family,

446
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 10: but it's still a US citizen comes home and has

447
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 10: her child here and goes back. How do we know

448
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 10: whether the child is a US citizen because the parent

449
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 10: didn't have an intent to stay.

450
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,959
Speaker 4: I make two points, one practical, one legal. The practical

451
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 4: point is, under the terms of this executive order, you

452
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 4: don't have to because the executive order turns on objectively

453
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 4: verifiable things, which is immigration status. Are you lawfully present

454
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 4: but temporarily present? Or are do you have an illegal status?

455
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 4: So those kind of like you know, taking evidence so

456
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 4: to speak, on your subjective attent wouldn't be done. And

457
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 4: as to the constitutional point, obviously domicile is baked into

458
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 4: a lot of constitutional and legal concepts, and there may

459
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 4: be situations where facts are determined. But if you look

460
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 4: at the guidance, the guidance that all the agencies did

461
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 4: after this court and casts the ages, you.

462
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 5: Can go for an issue guidance.

463
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 4: The guidance provides I think, very very clear, objective, verifiable

464
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 4: approaches to doing this.

465
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 5: And so as a practical matter, I don't think it's

466
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 5: presented by this executive order.

467
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: All right, So Solicitor General Sawer did a great job.

468
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: He was challenged quite a bit by pretty much all

469
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 1: the justices on this, and he had great responses and

470
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: great answers, and again, logically, not just based on the

471
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 1: original intent of the Fourteenth Amendment, but also how it's

472
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: being applied right now, it makes perfect sense that this

473
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: is not what the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment ever intended,

474
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 1: and it's certainly the circumstances and the repercussions of how

475
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: it's being employed here has been a disaster and is

476
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: no way for any country to run its citizenship protocols.

477
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: Norther country does do that except for this bizarre reinterpretation

478
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: of the Fourteenth Amendment over the past sixty seventy eighty years.

479
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: That said, he can give all the great answers that

480
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: he wants, and logic could be on our side, But

481
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: how many times have we seen the Supreme Court decide

482
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: against basic logic and great constitutional arguments. It all boils down,

483
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: It appears, as you saw from most of the questioning

484
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: that we showed you, it boils down to this idea

485
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: of what jurisdiction you are subject to when you are born,

486
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 1: right just by the nature of being born in America,

487
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 1: are you suddenly under the jurisdiction of and a citizen

488
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: of the United States government, or to the circumstances of

489
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: your parents and their intent of being here and their

490
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: legality with regard to whether they're even here officially or

491
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: whether they've broken our laws to come to this country.

492
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: Should that play a part? And do you just use

493
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: the language of the fourteenth Amendment to make that decision?

494
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: And it comes down to that sentence under the jurisdiction

495
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: or subject to the jurisdiction of another country. So that

496
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: brings us to the questioning of Elena Kagan, who really

497
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: tried to drill down on that. Sir Jenner Sauer said, listen,

498
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 1: this is what the writers of the fourteenth Amendment meant.

499
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: This was their intent, and then she questioned his sources,

500
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: and then it did not end well for a caked

501
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: Oh really, where are you getting that?

502
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 6: Yamas?

503
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 9: Howary that what you just said suggests that you can't

504
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 9: be arguing in the way Justice Alito suggests, because most

505
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 9: of your brief is not about illegal aliens. Most of

506
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 9: your brief is about people who are just temporarily in

507
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 9: the country where there was quite clearly an experience of

508
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 9: an understanding of that there were going to be temporary inhabitants,

509
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 9: and your whole theory of the case is built on

510
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 9: that group. You don't get to talking about undocumented persons

511
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 9: until quite later, and at much lesser you know. I

512
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 9: think it's like ten pages to three pages or something

513
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 9: like that. So you can't really be going with Justice

514
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 9: Alito's theory. You must be saying that there is a

515
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 9: principle that developed that was there in at the time

516
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 9: of the fourteenth Amendment. Isn't that right?

517
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 4: We agree there's a principle there at the fourteenth Amendment.

518
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 4: It is the jurisdiction means allegiance. The allegiance of a

519
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 4: this very strongly reflected in.

520
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 5: The nineteenth century sources.

521
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 4: The allegiance of an alien president in another country is

522
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 4: determined by domicile and that goes back to the vs

523
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 4: and the Pizarro, It goes through the Katsa Fair in

524
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 4: eighteen fifty three. It comes right up to Fong Uting

525
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 4: and Lao au Bou that are decided shortly before Wong

526
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 4: kim Ark.

527
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 5: So that's the principle. That principle clearly applies here. I

528
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 5: also respect it.

529
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I guess mister General Sauer, you know where

530
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 9: does this principle come from allegiance domicile allegiance? I think

531
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 9: you point to a Lincoln funeral speech as your primary

532
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 9: example of where this principle comes from. It's certainly not

533
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 9: what we think of when we think of the word jurisdiction.

534
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 9: And I appreciate the jurisdiction has many meanings, but you know,

535
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 9: the first meaning is like, if you're subject to jurisdiction,

536
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 9: you're subject to the authority of one doesn't say, Oh,

537
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 9: what that means is a certain kind of allegiance that

538
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 9: domiciliaries have and nobody else does. So the text of

539
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 9: the clause I think does not support you. I think

540
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 9: you're sort of looking for some more technical, esoteric meaning.

541
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 9: And then the question comes, Okay, if the text doesn't

542
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 9: support you, if there's a real history of people using

543
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 9: it that way. But as far as I can tell,

544
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 9: you know, at the time of the fourteenth you're using

545
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 9: some pretty obscure sources to get to this concept.

546
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 5: Well, take it straight from the framer's mouths.

547
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 4: So, for example, Senator Trumbull said, was asked, what does

548
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 4: jurisdiction means?

549
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 5: He means sub to the jurisdictions. What does that mean?

550
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 4: He says, it means not owing allegiance to anybody else.

551
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 4: He is the principal of a framer of the civil

552
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 4: Rights active eighteen sixty six. Representative Bigham, who's the framer

553
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 4: of the fourteenth Amendment, is asked what does it mean

554
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 4: in the Congressional Record.

555
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 5: Of page twelve ninety one.

556
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 4: He says, within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents,

557
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 4: not owing allegiance to any foreign sommerg team. We've cited many,

558
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 4: many examples where the congressional debates reflect that.

559
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: Then you read I got Elida Kagan says, like, you're

560
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: quoting some really obscure sources to back up this concept

561
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: of what they meant by, you know, subject to the

562
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: jurisdiction of the United States government. He's like, no, I'm

563
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: actually quoting the senators and congressman who wrote the fourteenth Amendment.

564
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 6: How is that obscure? That's literally the source.

565
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: And in fact, somebody on the X platform posted a

566
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: contemporaneous article published at the time of the debate over

567
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: the Fourteenth Amendment, where there was a question about this

568
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: very specific thing about the amendments of the fourteenth Amendment

569
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: that specifically talks about subject to the jurisdiction of the

570
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: United States.

571
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 6: And here look at what he said.

572
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: He said this will not, of course include persons born

573
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: in the United States who are foreigners, aliens who belong

574
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to

575
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: the government of the United States, but will include every

576
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: other class of persons. In other words, it doesn't include foreigners,

577
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't include aliens, and I'm pretty sure that means

578
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: illegal aliens. The whole purpose of the fourteenth Amendment was

579
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: to determine the citizenship and disposition of the now freed slaves,

580
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: and of course Democrats and sadly a handful of Republicans

581
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: have twisted the language of the fourteenth Amendment to create

582
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: a whole new class of slaves.

583
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 6: They love their cheaply how's this going to go? I

584
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 6: don't know. I don't know.

585
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: We'll find out together, and we'll talk about it when

586
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: the decision comes down, probably the last week of CHWO