1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: The FBI detained him, raided his house, then let him go. Well, 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: this delivery driver, Carlos is now doing a media tour. 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: Why he's on camera all the time answering questions? Jonathan 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Gillingham is here. He says, innocent people don't usually run 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: to the cameras. They lawyer up. He says, the local 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: sheriff's been incompetent or even arrogant. But what's the latest 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: here on what the FBI did yesterday with this delivery driver? 8 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: He breaks it down like nobody else. You gotta see this. 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: From the time the FBI got on the ground, they've 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: been playing catch up because this sheriff, from what I'm understanding, 11 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: and there's some pretty good sources out there that report 12 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: on stuff, is that he's he's not the man for 13 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 2: that job, and that the people that he put in 14 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: place as the lead detectives have two or less years 15 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 2: as detectives. 16 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 3: Well, I want to talk about that for a second. No, 17 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 3: you're you're right. 18 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: I've heard I had I had a sheriff lamb on 19 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: the other day, a mutual friend of ours, he said, 20 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: or somebody told him. And we have word that the 21 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: lead investigator has gotten maybe two years, and the two 22 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: other investigators have one year each. So when you know 23 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: that you're going in with no experience whatsoever, I mean, 24 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: with your extensive experience, don't you immediately say listen, I'm 25 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: Sheriff Nanos. We can't handle this cash. I need some help. 26 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: Because it seems like they dragged their feet on that 27 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: a little bit. They left the crime scene unattended, people 28 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: were using the bathroom in the crime scene. I mean, Jonathan, 29 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: it's not just incompetence. There's something else going on here, 30 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: not that I think they're involved, but can it purely 31 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: be called incompetence? Is this arrogance that didn't call somebody 32 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: in with more experience sooner? 33 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: I think arrogance and incompetence go hand in hand a 34 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: lot of times in law enforcement, and people believe that 35 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 2: they know more than they do. And you know, I 36 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: went through the NYPD Homicide Detective School. I'm one of 37 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: the few FBI agents that got to go through that, 38 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: and the very first thing that I learned in that 39 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: incredible course was how many people come in and destroy 40 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: a crime scene? And I think that's what occurred here. 41 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: So what evidence they can get, potentially they'll be able 42 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: to find her, but even defense attorney could come in 43 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: and then and question it stuff. But I think the 44 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: main goal is to find Nancy or recover her right 45 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: and then and also find the person that did this. So, 46 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: you know, I think the totality of the behavior of 47 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: this sheriff falls in line with all these other incompetent 48 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: sheriffs and chiefs of police that we've seen over the 49 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: past year, with these horrendous press conferences, and I think 50 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: in this case, you know, he ruined the force multiplier, 51 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: which is the citizenry and telling them don't worry about this, 52 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: or giving them this information one day and totally opposite 53 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: information the next day, and I think it really put 54 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 2: things behind quite a bit. So once the FBI got there, though, 55 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: now what they're doing when we look at last night, 56 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: I know that it may seem like a total failure, 57 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 2: but in my eyes, we don't know the complete picture. 58 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: So I know that the hostage Rescue team is their 59 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: FBI hostage rescue team, and they're not a regular swat team. 60 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: They're a Tier one asset, so they are the specialist 61 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: of hunters and they will go into place obscure places 62 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: and do incredible things so perhaps they're there because they 63 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: have information that she may be held and she may 64 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: be held over the border, or maybe they're there in 65 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: case that occurs. But either way, they had enough information 66 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: after this video came out to latch on to this 67 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: guy that they pulled over last night and serve a 68 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 2: warrant which had been approved by a judge. And so 69 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: they go in there, and so it's important for us 70 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 2: to realize that I don't think it was a failure 71 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: because they if they have problem cause to think that 72 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: she was there, which I've heard that there may have 73 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: been a phone call saying she was there, or they 74 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: had problem cause because he was in the neighborhood around 75 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: the time of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, then I'm all for that. 76 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: And just because they went in there and came back 77 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: out doesn't mean that they didn't also get a title 78 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: three to go up on his phone, his computer, his 79 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: social media. They may still be looking at this guy 80 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: because I don't care how innocent he makes himself sound, right, 81 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: he could still be a subject and could be connected 82 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: to something. 83 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: Well, I want to talk. I want to talk at 84 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: length about what you just said, because you just I 85 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: didn't think about a lot of what you just said. 86 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: That's why I have you on. You're an incredible expert 87 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,799 Speaker 1: on this. In fact, the podcast is called The Experts. 88 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: Go and check out Jonathan tgilliam dot com and go 89 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: check out his podcast anywhere. So this guy is talking 90 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: to the media. He's like any camera and he's just yapping. 91 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: His name is Carlos and he's out there just yappin. 92 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you just said about technology. He's 93 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: a delivery driver. He was asked by a reporter, have 94 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: you delivered to that house? He goes bad. I don't know, 95 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: Like he's not even sure if he did or didn't. 96 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I would know if this house is like 97 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: the international story. So that's an odd answer to me. 98 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: So you think they pulled him over because possibly there 99 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: was a tip that Nancy Guffree might be at the 100 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: house or near the house or involved somehow. I thought 101 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: he was pulled over in a traffic stop and they went, wow, 102 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: this is the guy on the video and decided to 103 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: detain him. Is that not what happened? They was he targeted? 104 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: Have you heard that they were actually looking for him? 105 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: I haven't heard any confirmation, but Okay, this is the way. 106 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: This is the way these things work. You know. They 107 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 2: if he pops for whatever reason and they put surveillance 108 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: on him, or they just say let's go to a 109 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: traffic stop and not let him get home, Okay, then 110 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: then that's the way it'll work its way out there. 111 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: And they had a warrant for his home, and they 112 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: had a warrant to go and they're calling it a raid, 113 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: but it really wasn't. They were serving a warrant. And 114 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: this was in Rio Rico, which is about an hour away. 115 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: So Jonathan, let me take you back again, because, man, 116 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: you know a lot. So do you think this guy 117 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: is a delivery driver may have been delivering in the neighborhood? 118 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: The FBI it's not this guy Nanos, it's not PMA County. 119 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: The FBI says, hey, we've got the cell phone towered 120 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: pings and this delivery guy or this guy Carlos was 121 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: in the area that day. Is that why they hone 122 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: in on him? Do you think I know that we're 123 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: speculating a lot, but that's what it sounded like. 124 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that could be it. It could 125 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: be a couple of things. It could be they got 126 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 2: to report a phone call from somebody once that video 127 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 2: is out, could be that they there's some technology they 128 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: use to kind of key in, whether it be facial 129 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: recognition or the toll records, which is are the phone 130 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 2: records that do all that that tell all that information. 131 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: Either way, I don't think he was just pulled over 132 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: and then they randomly said, oh, this must be the guy. 133 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 2: We got to go to his house. I think they 134 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: had that warrant and pulled him over having that warrant, 135 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 2: so they have him in search the house at the 136 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 2: same time, and you know, there was conflicting There was 137 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: conflicting information coming from his mother in law as well. 138 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: That's saying he was in there playing video game, but 139 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: yet there was a car stop, so there were different 140 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: things going on that I'm not clear about. But when 141 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: somebody comes out there and says, yeah, I don't know 142 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: anything about this murder, and and then and so he's 143 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: making himself sound he's totally minimizing his knowledge of this. 144 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: But when they asked you work and deliver package in Tucson, 145 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 2: he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I do that. So I mean, 146 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: it could be innocent. But that's also the way people 147 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: minimize their involvement in things. 148 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: And the people inside the house and love was his 149 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: mother or who it was. They were like, I hadn't 150 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: heard about the Nancy Gouthree case. Come on, I mean, 151 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: anybody in earshot are on the globe has heard about 152 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: this case, but especially an hour away in the same 153 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: state in Arizona. What do you glean from that? A 154 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: couple of things. He's out there yapping to the media. 155 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: I find it to be very odd. And the second thing, 156 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: the person inside the house saying we hadn't heard anything 157 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: about it. What do you take from that? 158 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: I mean, typically the people who come out and insist 159 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: on being heard of their innocence are a lot of 160 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: the times people who are guilty of such. And so 161 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: you know, again, he still may have connections to whatever 162 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: this is, and they may know that, and so perhaps 163 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: they also got a title three to look at his phones, 164 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: his computers, his social media, which doesn't mean that they're 165 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: going to go look at it and go get him. 166 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: They may listen and see if he's saying anything, and 167 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 2: see who he's calling, and would also go towards whatever 168 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: transactions he's doing on his phone. So if he was 169 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: connected to that bitcoin, it would come back to his phone. 170 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: So I don't know if they got a Title three, 171 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: but I would think if they had enough evidence of 172 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: problem cause to get a search warrant, they probably had 173 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: enough to get a Title three for at least thirty 174 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: days on his phone, in his computer and things. 175 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: It is Jonathan T. Gilliam. 176 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: Go follow him right now at gilliam Underscore Seal on 177 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: X over an ig. It's real Jonathan Gilliam. Check out 178 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: this podcast called the Experts. So let's talk about the 179 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: terminology that's used by people like you, what you've done 180 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: for a living for a long time. When you say 181 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: a suspect, we think the guy did it. When you 182 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: say a person of interest, we're not sure. But we're 183 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: questioning him because we're wondering. When you say just detained 184 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: and they're not person of interest or a suspect, what 185 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: do you take from that. We're trying to see if 186 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: there's a link. He's not free to go. If you're detained, 187 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: you can't just leave unless they release you. So talk 188 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: to me about the different terminology. 189 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: Well, in in all that terminology, he could be the 190 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: primary subject. They just don't have the evidence yet, so 191 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: they detain him because they want to ask him questions, 192 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: or they serve a warrant because they want to find 193 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: some things. But a lot of times they won't say 194 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: that they're the subject because you don't want that subject. 195 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: Then if you don't have enough evidence at that time 196 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: to get an arrest warrant, then but you still need 197 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: to make contact. You may pull the ruse or you 198 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: may not define him publicly. Is that and this is 199 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 2: everything that happens in this case seems to be going public, 200 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: so that it could be as simple as that he 201 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: could be a subject, the primary subject, but they're just 202 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: not saying that, and they're saying we didn't arrest him, 203 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: they just detain him. Then if you're if you're listening 204 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: to his phones, what do you think the first thing 205 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 2: he's going to do is turn around and start calling everybody? 206 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 2: So there's a potential of that. So the other side 207 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: of that is if they think this individual may have 208 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: connection to somebody, then they will They're not going to 209 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: arrest him, but then detain him while they carry out 210 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: a search warrant. And so a person of interest versus 211 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: a suspect in law enforcement eyes, I think the only 212 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: thing that differentiates those two things is the evidence and proveability. 213 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 2: If I have a hunch and statistics say this might 214 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: be the person, then I'm going to detain them and 215 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 2: they're going to be a person of interest. If there 216 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 2: really is enough evidence to say this person might have 217 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: done it but we're not quite sure, then he might 218 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: be deemed a suspect. 219 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: Now And you're not saying he's a suspect. Neither am 220 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: I we're not calling a person of interest, but certainly 221 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: he was detained last night. Is there any investigative tactic 222 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: that you can think of that would make sense? Let's 223 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: let him go and see what he does. Do you 224 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: think that you let somebody go that you still might 225 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: want to take a look at, just to see, Like 226 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: you said, who's he calling or is he going? Is 227 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: he going to talk to the media? Is he not 228 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: going to talk to the media. Is that a tactic? 229 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: Let's let him go and see what he does. 230 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: Oh? Sure. 231 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: I've been part of a drug case before where a 232 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: guy got a ship of drugs and we couldn't let 233 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: the drugs just go and sit in this warehouse, so 234 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: we went in and surreptitiously took the drugs, and then 235 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 2: we were monitoring his phone and social media, and we 236 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: just let him come and discover that those drugs weren't 237 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 2: there the next day. And of course, like all people 238 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: who know a little bit of information, but they have 239 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 2: enough education in that area to kind of come up 240 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 2: with a theory, this guy developed ninety percent of a 241 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 2: theory off of ten percent of knowledge. The drugs were there, 242 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 2: now they're and they were delivered by these people. So 243 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: we listened to his phone and when he started mentioning 244 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: that he had to go kill these people, then you know, 245 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: we went in arrested him. So but in that time span, 246 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: the people that he contacted was phenomenal, and so that 247 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 2: propelled the case forward exponentially. So that could be the 248 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: case here. You know, I'm not saying it is, but 249 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: it could be the case. But I will say that 250 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: the fact that these these movements came quickly after that 251 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: video tells me that that they are collecting different types 252 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: of data, yes, and they're starting developed some type of 253 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 2: picture where they're starting to go on these people. And 254 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 2: it also potentially could have been somebody who made a 255 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: phone call, but I don't know if they would have 256 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: been able to get a warrant just off of a 257 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 2: phone call. 258 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: Okay, I think they. 259 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 2: Would have had to have a little bit of pressing 260 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: evidence to go along with that. 261 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: It is Jonathan T. Gillian Go follow him everywhere. He's 262 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: the host of the Experts podcast Incredible Information. As we're 263 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: watching this unfold and as we're seeing this guy do 264 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: what he does, the question that jumped in my brain 265 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: last night, Jonathan was is there really a ransom? Are 266 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: these things connected? In your investigative you know mind, do 267 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: you feel confident that the ransom request and the crypto 268 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: request is actually attached to this case or might it 269 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: be somebody who's not attached whatsoever, trying to make a 270 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: quick buck. Because we saw some activity yesterday in that wallet, 271 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: and the activity was about three hundred bucks. It looks 272 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: like it was probably seed money from the FBI or 273 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: the sheriff or somebody just to see what would happen 274 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: with it. It wasn't six million dollars. Are you convinced 275 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: that these are one of the same people or could 276 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: they be very separate entities. 277 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: So, based on the knowledge that I have of what's happening, 278 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: which is, you know, limited to what everybody else has, 279 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: but having the experience that I've had before. I'm not 280 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 2: saying it's not connected, but I will say that the 281 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 2: way that this ransom was done does not reflect the 282 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: typical way that you know just you know, eighty miles 283 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: over the border in Mexico, the way that those bitcoin 284 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: because there are bitcoin ransoms, it's nowhere shape or form 285 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 2: the way they do it. I mean they have two 286 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 2: way communication. They overtly say this is the person and 287 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 2: they're in great distress and they're gonna get killed, or 288 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 2: they try to pressure the people into making those deposits 289 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: very quickly, right, and sometimes they drag out, but there's 290 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: always communication. In this case, there was no community way 291 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: to communicate back with them, and it started to reflect 292 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 2: a type of scam that you would see from India 293 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: or Nigeria, where people jump on things and try to 294 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 2: scam money out of people. And that's kind of we 295 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: saw one. We know for a fact one of those 296 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 2: came out of California and he got arrested. So this 297 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 2: could have been a scam. And people are well, they 298 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: had pictures of her, and I mean, ai, I go 299 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 2: on every week, I have somebody sending me a reel saying, 300 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: did you see what this coyote did when he ran 301 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: from a you know, snowfall, and I'm like, that's not 302 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: a real coyote. That is a you know, or a wolf, 303 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: that's a AI. So you know, it could be AI 304 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 2: in this day and age, and they could do which 305 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: is very alarming, but it's absolutely true. So I don't 306 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: I don't know if they're connected. I would still investigate 307 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: them both as if they were, so you kind of 308 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: have two cases going at the same time. But I 309 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: think there's enough evidence starting to pile in on what 310 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: happened at the scene that I think that's going to 311 00:14:54,920 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: outweigh potentially the ransom and the bitcoin although I think 312 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 2: think the FBI has plenty of talent that can still 313 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: be moving forward to eventually crack who who was trying 314 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: to push the bitcoin ransom. 315 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, if you're if you're trying to get 316 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: a ransom, you have the commodity. The commodity is is 317 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie, no sign of life whatsoever, no information whatsoever 318 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: other than they might have known what clothing that she 319 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: had in her closet or something. 320 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: I don't know, but I mean they wouldn't. You wouldn't. 321 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: The first thing to do is say, hey, here she is. 322 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: She's not going to be alive if you don't give 323 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: you the six million dollars. They haven't done that at all. 324 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a sign, isn't it. 325 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it. I think it is. And 326 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: then Monday came and went and there was no you 327 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: blew it, you know, if you we're gonna give you 328 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: one more chance, or there was none of that and 329 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: and cut and run. I mean, I think a lot 330 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: of these kidnappers that actually do this in other areas 331 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: are similar to to uh uh uh book agents that 332 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: you have when you write a book there, or book publishers. 333 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: You know, they publish a book and then if you're 334 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: not making any money, they're on They're on the next one, right, 335 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: So I think a lot of these people are like this. 336 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: And I just heard yesterday. I can't tell you who 337 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: it was, but I did hear it on one of 338 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: the news networks that there was a kidnapping that happened 339 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: in Tucson in the past recent past were an individual 340 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 2: at male who was wealthy was kidnapped and taken across 341 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: the border and held for ransom. Now we're being told 342 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: that that never happens, but apparently it did happen. So 343 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: why aren't you know that? Why isn't that information being shared? 344 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: I can't tell you except for sheriff is trying to 345 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: make it look like it's safer where he lives than 346 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: other places, which I just think that's just ridiculous. 347 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 3: That's the case. 348 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: It's Jonvin Gilliam. Go check out the Experts podcast. Where 349 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: are we in the investigation right now? We have a 350 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: lot of new information, a big information dump yesterday with 351 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: these pictures and these videos and so on, and then 352 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: we hear about the rico or the Rio Rico raid, 353 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: or the warrant served, this guy being pulled over. Where 354 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: are we in the investigation right now? Do you think? 355 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: Do you feel like we're getting closer? Because as close 356 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: as we all fel felt like we were getting last night, 357 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of that was perpetrated by 358 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: the media getting it wrong. But as close as we 359 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: felt last night, I feel even farther away today than 360 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: we were yesterday. Where are we in the investigation do 361 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: you think? 362 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 2: I think we're moving forward, and I think that is 363 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: compared to where we were three days ago. I think 364 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: we're leaps and bounds ahead. That video tells a lot. 365 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 2: Even though it doesn't tell us exactly who the guy 366 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: is or exactly what they look like, it tells us 367 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: a lot, shoe size, heighth gate, the way the individual 368 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: was walking before they slumped down. Because they're nefarious, it 369 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 2: tells us that they were in no hurry to get 370 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 2: into that home. And then once they got in there, 371 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 2: because the other information that we have, we know that 372 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 2: they stayed in there for at least forty one minutes. 373 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 2: So that opens up a whole other avenue of was 374 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: this a robbery? Was this person just going and casing 375 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 2: a neighborhood and came into there, because it didn't seem 376 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: like he was familiar with that camera kind of did 377 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: seem like he was somewhat familiar with that home. So 378 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 2: did he work on the home? There was a new 379 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: roof on that house, you could see it in the pictures, right, 380 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: Was he there for that? That's how Elizabeth Smart got caught, 381 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 2: you know, or got kidnapped. They were working on her 382 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 2: roof and then the guy never came back for a paycheck, 383 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: but he came back and kidnapped her. So these are 384 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: all avenues that I would go down. But it's evidence, 385 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 2: and it's building a picture of who this person is. 386 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: It's intelligence enough to carry this crime out, and bold enough, 387 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: which tells me it's not the first time they've committed 388 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 2: a crime or snuck around a house at night, but 389 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: stupid enough to see a camera and instead of continuing 390 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 2: to keep their face head, walked right up to it 391 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 2: and put their hand in front of it and then 392 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: went got some shrubbery to cover it up. I mean, 393 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: that does not show tactical thinking. 394 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: What do you make of all this stuff in his backpack? 395 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: This was not an empty backpack, like you said. If 396 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: this were a robbery, you would go in with an 397 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: empty sack or an empty backpack and steal stuff and 398 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: then leave. But I know how to do that. But 399 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: I would not expect that the backpack would be so full. 400 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: What do you think was going on there? 401 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: I mean, he could have been looking for specific things 402 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 2: like jewelry, and that backpack could have had drills and 403 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: things in it for sakes, you know, I don't know, 404 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: but I know that he meant business because he showed 405 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 2: up with a weapon on the front of him and 406 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 2: stupidly carried I may add because and that's another reasons, 407 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: very strange. 408 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 3: He was carrying it. Yeah. 409 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, behavior that they're bold behavior. They're intelligent enough to 410 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 2: think out this and walk right up there, but so 411 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: weird to carry their gun like that and then to 412 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: do the stuff with the brush and have the backpack full. 413 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 2: But the backpack, I don't look at that is foolish. 414 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 2: They may have had stuff in there that they needed 415 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 2: to either abduct Nancy or to to get into things 416 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: that they needed to get into. I mean, jewelry doesn't 417 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 2: take a lot of space to steal or or to 418 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 2: pack away, so he could have had another bag inside 419 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: of there. 420 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 3: Gotcha. It's Jonathan T. Gilliam. 421 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: Go and check out this podcast called The Expert. It's 422 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: former Navy seal, former FBI special agent. How quickly after 423 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: we saw the incompetence or the arrogance of the the 424 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: Pima County Sheriff, do you think that cash and the 425 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: entirety of the FBI said, dude, we got to take 426 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: this over. These people are screwing this up big time. 427 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: You think that was a very quick thing, because as 428 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: you and I talked about, and as Sheriff Leam and 429 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: I talked about, that crime scene is screwed, isn't it. 430 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: I mean if you're a lawyer worth your weight in dirt, 431 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: you can say another the crime scene was Sully. We 432 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,479 Speaker 1: have no idea who went in there, who went out 433 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: of there. So how quickly do you think the FBI 434 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: came in and said, stop touching things. You've already messed 435 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: up enough. Let us do this because we were still 436 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: seeing Nanos is still the face of this. But everything 437 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: that he says out there in public, I don't even take. 438 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's not worth the greenest salt to me. 439 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: But when we hear from the FBI, I trust them 440 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: much more. How soon thereafter do you think the FBI 441 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: said just get out of our way. 442 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 2: I don't know if they ever said that, But I 443 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 2: think that Samantha Guthrie, because of who she is and this, listen, 444 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: this is the way world works. She's connected. She's connected 445 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 2: enough to call a senator before she called police, which 446 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: I found a little strange. But and also for President 447 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: Trump to recognize this as going on and commit resources 448 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: to it. So I think very quickly the FBI was 449 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: put in a position where they will act. And I 450 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: think that this sheriff did what the sheriff should do, 451 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: which was developed this into a task force type of mentality, 452 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: and I'm sure that he knows the special agent in 453 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 2: charge there in Tucson, and they may or may not 454 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: have a good working report. They make it look like that, 455 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 2: but I think very quickly the FBI's eyes were upon this. 456 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 2: But those first three days were critical, and I think 457 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 2: when after the first press conference, I'm sure that the 458 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: FBI was starting to get antsy to get. 459 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: Is the crime scene done? Jonathan, do you think I mean, 460 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: is it just screwed? Like I said, any lawyer can say, well, 461 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: you can't prove any of that, we have no idea 462 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: who went in there. 463 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 2: It could be screwed for prosecution, but it might not 464 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: be screwed for finding and solving this crime and finding Nancy. 465 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 2: That could be different. And if they did find the Nancy, 466 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 2: or they find an individual that they can prove knows 467 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: where she is or find her that way, I think 468 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: that I think a good prosecutor will still have enough information, 469 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 2: enough evidence to get them. But I mean, because DNA, 470 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 2: Let's say that they went in there and contaminated the scene, 471 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 2: but this individual's DNA still pops on the scene. I mean, 472 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: it's gonna be hard pressed for a defense attorney to 473 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: say people planted that guy's DNA in there, especially the 474 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: time and when it was collected. So, but I'll also 475 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: say this, depending on the avenue in which this goes, 476 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 2: I think if it was a robbery gone bad or 477 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 2: something of that nature, I think, or a target of opportunity, 478 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: I think that there's a good chance that Nancy is 479 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 2: deceased and they'll find her within thirty miles of that home. 480 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 2: If it was a kidnapp, I think that it's a 481 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: fifty to fifty whether she's over the border or she 482 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: stashed somewhere in close proximity, and maybe not in Tucson, 483 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: but somewhere in the proximity of Tucson. 484 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: It's Jonathan T. Gilliam Go check out the Experts podcast. 485 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: You brought up Savannah Guthrie, the daughter of the very 486 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: famous daughter. Obviously, she does a bunch of videos where 487 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: she's speaking. Sometimes she's with her siblings, sometimes she's not. 488 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: It seemed very clear to me that she was told 489 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: use specific words, say these specific things. In one video 490 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: you see her look down and they continue. Obviously the 491 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: script was on the floor or something. What do you 492 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: make of the last one that she did, though, and 493 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: the last one she comes out and says, look, we're 494 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: in a time of desperation. Now we need your help. 495 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: If you know who this guy is, help us out. 496 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: She didn't appear to be as sort of coached as 497 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: maybe the other one's word. Did you see that too 498 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: or not? 499 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it was. First of all, I 500 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 2: think when her brother did his own, I think he 501 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 2: was frustrated. I could he's a fighter, pod I could 502 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: see the frustration in his face. Yes, when she did hers, 503 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: I think it was it was past the deadline. I think, yes, 504 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 2: they're they're desperate, but I think that the credibility of 505 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 2: that ransom started to go down, and or they at 506 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: least said that this might not be real, and even 507 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: if it is, we still don't know where she is. 508 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 2: And so I think she did what the sheriff should 509 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 2: have done in the very beginning, which was make a 510 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 2: plea to the to the public that if you know 511 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 2: of any any rumors or anything that's going on, or 512 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 2: any sign of a woman that should not be with 513 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: these people, you know, let us know. But I never 514 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: heard that from the sheriff. I actually have never heard 515 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 2: that from the FBI as well. 516 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: Now, I'm with you on that. I mean, why not 517 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: get everybody, never, anybody who with a set of eyeballs 518 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: or maybe a video camera in their car to help 519 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: out if they can. 520 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. I'll tell you. Let me answer 521 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 2: that question. It's institutional inbreeding, which I talk about my 522 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: book Sheep no More. I'm not trying to plug my book. 523 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: But this book is about attack awareness and tax survival. 524 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 2: And I think when you look at how law enforcement 525 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 2: does things, technology, terrorist bad guys, they've all evolved and 526 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 2: law enforcement has not evolved in a lot of ways. 527 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: And so when you when you see these things, it 528 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: is institutional inbreeding. They don't know how to use the 529 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: general public. They still are very leary of putting information 530 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 2: out because they think, I don't know that the public 531 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: is a bunch of idiots, or they'll just go into 532 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: hysteria running around like a people in a video game. 533 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 2: And that's not the case. I mean, these law enforcement 534 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 2: has to learn how to use the general public as 535 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: a force multiplier, and I just don't think they've done that. 536 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: It's very odd to me. Why why Again, Maybe this 537 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: is the incompetence of the arrogance, but yeah, I was 538 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: in television news for a long time, we've tried to 539 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 1: put out information as soon as we got it on 540 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: somebody who was missing, especially a high profile case like this. 541 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: I mean, it never recovered a case like this. This 542 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: is a really big one. But you would think that 543 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: the police would would would do all they could to say, 544 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: this is what you look like, this is where it happened, 545 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: this is this is when it happened. If you've got 546 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: any any activity in that area. Well, again, do you 547 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: think this is just you call it institutional inbreeding. I 548 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: think if this is just them telling each other, don't 549 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: put it out. We got it. We don't want the 550 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: public to help. It'll make us look incompetent. What reasoning 551 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: could there be other than they're just not very smart. 552 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 2: I just have to say, I don't know what the 553 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: percentage is, but a lot of it has to do 554 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 2: with the fact that that's just not the way we 555 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 2: do it, and so they don't entertain new ways of 556 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: doing things. And you know, people in every career field 557 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: suffer from this. Where this is especially in the security 558 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: law enforcement arena, is that they don't evolve in tactics. 559 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 2: You know, haven't been a seal we're always evolving our tactics. 560 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 2: If there's a better way to do it, we not 561 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 2: only learn that tactic, but we learn it better than 562 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 2: anyone else Whereas in law enforcement, they don't look for 563 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: new tactics, and if somebody comes up with a new idea, 564 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,959 Speaker 2: they don't entertain it because that's not how they were trained. 565 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: So it's that plus ego and believe it or not, incompetence. 566 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 2: I mean, over the years, police officers have been trained 567 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 2: to a degraded level because of the politics and the 568 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 2: people that have been pulled up to the top for 569 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: the EI reasons in right and just because they're politicians. 570 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: So I think it's part of it's kind of a 571 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: totality of all those things. 572 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: If I were an investigator with the FBI or with 573 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: the Pima County Sheriff's office, my ego would be stroked 574 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: if I found her, if I solved it, I mean 575 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: that would my ego would do that. I'm not really 576 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: sure what it is about people putting blinders on and 577 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: saying we got it. Don't worry about you. You don't 578 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: know as much as we do. And now here we 579 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: are a week and a half later. Let me finish 580 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: up with this because we've seen the video now and 581 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: I don't know that well. I certainly don't have the 582 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: investigative history that you do. But I thought the guy 583 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: didn't know the camera was there. He sort of walked 584 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: to the left a little bit and try to cover 585 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: it with his hand. He's an idiot, he's not a 586 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,479 Speaker 1: very smart guy, in my opinion, but he didn't look 587 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with that entire entire entrance to the home. In 588 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: my opinion, I don't know as much as you that said. 589 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: Is there any doubt she was the target? This isn't 590 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: just happenstance, right. Nobody said hey, I'll just stop in 591 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: this house and see what I can do. She was targeted. 592 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 2: No, I say that she could be, and I'm kind 593 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: of in agreement. I'm not saying he didn't know the house. Yeah, 594 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 2: but if he did and he knew that camera was there, 595 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 2: he didn't have a plan from when he was He 596 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: had a plan to put his head down, but he 597 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: didn't have a plan to cover up that camera. So 598 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 2: that's just stupidity. I think with you either way, it's bad. 599 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: But it could be that she was a target, absolutely, 600 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: But it could also be that he was just he 601 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 2: knew that house and he was going to go in 602 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 2: there and get some stuff, and he thought he was 603 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: smart enough to sneak around without getting caught. If he 604 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 2: was going there as to a kidnapp her, then I'll 605 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: put more weight on the fact that there's probably other 606 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 2: people involved. But I've seen people, you know, who have 607 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: years and years in law enforcement, go on all these 608 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: network shows and argue the fact that absolutely it's a crew. 609 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: And I don't see any evidence of a crew, so 610 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: I can't make that claim. But it could be. So 611 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: I would say, Joe, it could have been that she 612 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 2: was targeted. It could have been that her home and 613 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: her valuables were targeted. And either way, a good law 614 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: enforcement officer is going to look at the statistics of 615 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: either of those cases, and they're going to work with 616 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: the evidence, the statistics, and these avenues of a possible approach, 617 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: and they're going to look at all of them. They're 618 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: not going to say, oh, we know it was a crew, 619 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 2: we know she was targeted. They're going to look at 620 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: all these things and eventually one of those if their 621 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: evidence is right, they will they will find out, you know, 622 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 2: where she is or who took her. But I want 623 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 2: to point one thing out, Joe, You've got to do 624 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: a show on this later. There is and this is 625 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 2: a sidebar to this case. This camera they did not 626 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,719 Speaker 2: subscribe to the Nest camera, which Nests is owned by Google. 627 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 2: But I'm sure it's the same thing with Ring cameras. 628 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 2: These cameras are still recording even if you don't subscribe 629 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 2: to it, and that information is being stored. That to me, 630 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: next to this discip appearance in this crime is one 631 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: of the biggest stories I've ever heard in my life, 632 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: because these cameras are everywhere, Yes, and to know if 633 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: people have them in their home, they have them outside 634 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: of their home. And to know now that if you 635 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: ever walked the naked in front of one of your 636 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 2: cameras and it alerted that image and that recording, even 637 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: if it's for fifteen seconds or more, is being stored 638 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 2: by Google. 639 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, he has stored by Ring. Yeah, that's a problem. 640 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: That it's a major and we had no idea until 641 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: this case. 642 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: That's correct, And so I think I praise I thank 643 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 2: Google for helping out, but I think they just opened 644 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 2: up a Pandora's box. And if people want to go 645 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: after this. This is going to be a huge thing. 646 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: They go after show. 647 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 3: Let's do that show. 648 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: I definitely want to have you back at Jonathan T Gillian, 649 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: go go go check it this podcast the Experts. Let 650 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 1: me ask you one last dumb question, maybe thirty seconds 651 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: on this and I'll let you go. You give me 652 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: so much time, Jonathan, thank you. One last question. I 653 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: saw a pizza delivery guys show up yesterday at Nancy 654 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: Guthrie's house. I saw walk through the line of media, 655 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: I saw walk through any cops that were there, and 656 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: he basically got to the front door to try to 657 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: deliver a pizza. I mean, is that is that crime scene? Secure? 658 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 3: Now? 659 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw that, but the guy 660 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: shows up to deliver some food. 661 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: Joe, I don't know why. I don't know why they're 662 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: allowing this to happen. I mean, I tell this story 663 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 2: over and over again. I don't know those physically. I 664 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: just remember learning the story in the FBI academy. I 665 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: think it was where a guy had murdered a child 666 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: and when they did the search of the place, they 667 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: couldn't find enough evidence to prove his guilt, so he 668 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 2: was found not guilty, they took the triale he found 669 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: not guilty. Somebody else bought the house I believe was 670 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: the story, and they heard something in one of the events, 671 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: and when they opened it up there was a videotape 672 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: of him killing this child. 673 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 674 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: So that's see. You cannot release things until you've truly 675 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: searched that area. And if you're not an expert enough 676 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: to do that, you need to stop, pause, lock it 677 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: down and bring people in. And if they're still searching 678 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: for her and finding clues, there may still be clues 679 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 2: there that they haven't found. 680 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 3: Such a good point. 681 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have let anybody in there. 682 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: Jonathan Gilliam, go and check him out. It's a Jay 683 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: Gilliam underscore a seal over on x Real, Jonathan Gilliam 684 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: over on ig check out the Experts podcast and sheep 685 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: No More as the name of the book, right cheap 686 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: no More. That's correct, Jonathan, Thanks Famelia. We got to 687 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: do this again very soon. I really appreciate all the knowledge. 688 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: Joe. You're a voice and nobody can miss and it's 689 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 2: great to actually have finally been on the show with you, so. 690 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 3: I appreciate it. 691 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: Well, we'll do it again very soon, A man, I 692 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: appreciate you. That's it for Unshaking and un Afraid with 693 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: Joe Pegs. Make sure you subscribe. We'll have another one 694 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: drop very soon.