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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: If I can't have a difference of a or the

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Speaker 2: curious question that explores the subject without that being upsetting

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Speaker 2: to you, then I honor you and us best by

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Speaker 2: asking that that either be a subject that we avoid

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Speaker 2: or that there is the opportunity to hit Paul's on

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Speaker 2: a conversation if it begins to go that way, and

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Speaker 2: if the other person can't see that as you valuing

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Speaker 2: the relationship, then they value that subject more than they

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Speaker 2: value the relationship, and that's a warning sign.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Faith of your podcast, where we discuss

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Speaker 3: the powerful truths to calm anxiety and fear.

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Speaker 4: Because I'm Jennifer Sire and today we're continuing our series

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Speaker 4: Relational Piece, Loving Others without Losing Yourself with a discussion

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Speaker 4: on a crucial but often confusing element necessary for any

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Speaker 4: healthy relationship, which basically.

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Speaker 5: Needs defining where we end and someone else begins. Most,

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Speaker 5: if not all, of us have certain relationships that leave

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Speaker 5: us on edge, anxious, emotionally exhausted, or unsettled, and often

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Speaker 5: those tensions involve the very people with whom we most

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Speaker 5: long to build healthy, fulfilling, and emotionally safe connections.

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Speaker 3: Those situations can feel incredibly confusing. We might recognize that

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Speaker 3: we need to set healthy boundaries, but not know what

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Speaker 3: that looks like for us personally. Or maybe we recognize

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Speaker 3: this as something we need to do but don't know how,

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Speaker 3: or fear we don't have the courage to speak hard truths.

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Speaker 3: In this episode, I've invited pastor, author and trauma informed

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Speaker 3: biblical counselor Brad Hambrick to discuss boundaries, what they are,

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Speaker 3: what they aren't, why establishing them can feel so so difficult,

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Speaker 3: and biblical principles that can help us gain courage and

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Speaker 3: clarity once we've prayerfully determined what we will and what

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Speaker 3: we won't tolerate. Pastor Brad, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 2: It is my pleasure. I appreciate the invitation.

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Speaker 6: Brad serves as the pastor of Counseling at the Semit

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Speaker 6: Church in Durham, North Carolina. He also serves as an

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Speaker 6: assistant professor of Biblical Counseling at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

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Speaker 6: He's a council member of the Biblical Counseling Coalition, and

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Speaker 6: he's authored several books, including Angry with God, An Honest

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Speaker 6: Journey through Suffering, and betrayal.

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Speaker 1: We probably need to have you on to talk about

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Speaker 1: that one.

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Speaker 6: And he served as general editor for the Becoming a

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Speaker 6: Church that Cares well for the Abused Church Cares dot

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Speaker 6: com project. You've also got several podcasts, correct, I have a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of resources on my website that are audio and

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Speaker 2: nature and so yeah, if anybody's interested in those, all

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Speaker 2: of that's at brad Haemburg dot com.

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Speaker 1: Aw So we'll make sure to put that in the

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Speaker 1: show notes as well. I'm curious.

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Speaker 6: So, I know, as a biblical counselor, you've got a

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Speaker 6: lot of really important relationships, and you've got your family,

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Speaker 6: and as a pastor as well, you've got a lot

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Speaker 6: of important relationships I'm sure with people who are hurting

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Speaker 6: and looking for support. So how do you navigate all

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Speaker 6: of that in a healthy way?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the person who often gives me the

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Speaker 2: most trouble is me. And oftentimes when we think about

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Speaker 2: boundaries and that type of thing, we think of those

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Speaker 2: outside of us, But sometimes the person who has the

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Speaker 2: most unfair expectations for me is me. I can easily

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Speaker 2: have two hundred to two hundred and fifty hours worth

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Speaker 2: of good stuff, but I think I ought to get

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Speaker 2: done within this one hundred and sixty eight hour week

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Speaker 2: and be really relentless with myself if I can't get

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Speaker 2: it all done. And then I think about the number

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Speaker 2: of people who I would love to be able to

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Speaker 2: be helpful with in that conversation of can I just

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Speaker 2: have five minutes? And it's oh, it's not that I'm

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Speaker 2: too busy, Like I really don't think. It's like I'm

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Speaker 2: such an important person, I don't want to have the conversation,

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Speaker 2: but I'm finite and if somebody entrust me with their

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Speaker 2: story and then they'll want to continue that Like we

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Speaker 2: are people with limits, and that's folks who are very sincere.

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Speaker 2: Then you have folks who may be malicious in their intent.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, am I wise enough? And I'm I

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Speaker 2: always right enough to know the difference? This is where

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Speaker 2: even thinking about that, I feel the angst of our subject,

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Speaker 2: because boundaries can mean so many different things that it's like,

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Speaker 2: am I even used in the word right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is why we need to have this conversation.

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Speaker 6: And I particularly appreciate you mentioning capacity because I think

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Speaker 6: that's something a lot of times we don't consider and

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Speaker 6: maybe we're trained whether verbally or nonverbally. Growing up in

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Speaker 6: religious context, we can be trained to think we shouldn't

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Speaker 6: have capacity. One challenge that can make setting boundaries so hard.

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Speaker 6: I'm assuming for you, and I know for a lot

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Speaker 6: of listeners, if you're really high in compassion, it makes

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Speaker 6: it exponentially more confusing and difficult.

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Speaker 2: Would you say, oh, absolutely, God is infinite. I am finite.

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Speaker 2: I see far more needs on a day to day basis.

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Speaker 2: And if I'm just nice and compassionate and curious I

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Speaker 2: ask questions people start to share, I'm going to hear

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Speaker 2: more burden than there are hours in my week to resolve,

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Speaker 2: and so then I start getting all crunchy, like I

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Speaker 2: just need to stop asking people questions and showing interest

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Speaker 2: because I can. And yeah, you can really tie yourself

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Speaker 2: in nots because you feel like if I hear a need,

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Speaker 2: I ought to be able to be the one who

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Speaker 2: can meet and fulfill that need. And giving yourself permission

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Speaker 2: to say every need may not have my name on

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Speaker 2: it is an important point of freedom that we need

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Speaker 2: to be able to embrace.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm thinking of the parents who are listening, and

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Speaker 6: they've got college students that are struggling high school students

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Speaker 6: that are struggling trying to navigate that, or maybe somebody

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Speaker 6: has a spouse that is going through intense depression and

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Speaker 6: they want to fix it, but it's not theirs to fix.

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Speaker 1: Do you think like.

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Speaker 6: Sometimes we rush in to fix things because we're just

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Speaker 6: uncomfortable with somebody else's pain.

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Speaker 2: I think that is a huge part of it. And

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Speaker 2: in one of the hats that I wear, I train

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Speaker 2: future councilors this is slight, hyperabally, but the thing I

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Speaker 2: say to them, as much as I say anything else,

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Speaker 2: the number one skill of counseling is being comfortable being uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That is, if you're uncomfortable with being in the presence

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Speaker 2: of other people's difficult and suffering, you will become so

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Speaker 2: self preoccupied that your ability to discern what is actually

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Speaker 2: most beneficial for the other person our discomfort in the

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Speaker 2: presence of their discomfort becomes a major distraction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point.

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Speaker 6: What are some other reasons, especially like in the context

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Speaker 6: of close inner personal relationships, that boundaries are so difficult.

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Speaker 6: So we mentioned it's confusing, We mentioned being high compassion

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Speaker 6: and having discomfort with discomfort.

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Speaker 1: What are some other sticking points.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll take another phrase. I hear it all the time.

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Speaker 2: I'm not against the phrase. I actually like it. I

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Speaker 2: just think it's one that contributes to this conversation that

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Speaker 2: you ought to believe the best. You ought to believe

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Speaker 2: the best about everybody. And it's like, but if we're

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Speaker 2: in one of those situations where somebody's being malicious, then

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Speaker 2: believing the best actually becomes a form of folly. In

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Speaker 2: John two, I think it's around twenty four, twenty five,

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Speaker 2: twenty six, it says Jesus did not entrust himself to

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Speaker 2: them because he knew their hearts. Nobody was more full

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Speaker 2: of grace than Jesus. He lived the life we should live,

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Speaker 2: and die the death that we deserve. But when he

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Speaker 2: could tell somebody was playing relational, he wasn't going to

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Speaker 2: play checkers just to placate them and be nice. And

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Speaker 2: so that idea of believe the best when somebody is

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Speaker 2: a good faith actor, yes, when somebody is being malicious.

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Speaker 1: No, yeah.

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Speaker 6: Well, and I know for number of our listeners, especially

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Speaker 6: if they've experienced developmental trauma, that can be exceptionally difficult.

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Speaker 6: I know one woman in particular, she was raised by

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Speaker 6: a narcissist, and so she really feels confused when she's

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Speaker 6: trying to understand is this person being hurtful? Even not

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Speaker 6: understanding if somebody is really being genuine, it all got

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Speaker 6: confused for her. In my personal journey, I like to

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Speaker 6: remind myself that I have time.

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Speaker 1: I have time to.

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Speaker 6: Prayerfully consider is this person a safe person?

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Speaker 1: Is God leading me? So that's probably what I would say.

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Speaker 6: Is one of the things sometimes I feel like, and

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Speaker 6: maybe this comes also from our culture or our fix

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Speaker 6: it nature, I don't know, but feeling like we have

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Speaker 6: to jump in and resolve everything really quickly. I wonder

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Speaker 6: if sometimes that gets us in trouble as well. How

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Speaker 6: can we hear how God is leading us or how

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Speaker 6: our own internal junk is influencing our perspective if we're

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Speaker 6: jumping in right away.

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Speaker 2: Hearing what you're saying reminds me of a phrase I

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Speaker 2: picked up from a counselor friend and somebody I admire.

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Speaker 2: Her name is Diane ling Berg. She said one of

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Speaker 2: the hardest things after Trump is to be able to

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Speaker 2: tell the difference between safe pain and unsafe pain. Wow.

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Speaker 2: In relationships, we're all sinners, and we all have our

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Speaker 2: self interest. In limited perspective, there's going to be hurt

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Speaker 2: and even healthy relationships, but on the backside of something

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Speaker 2: that is abusive or toxic or traumatic. Being able to

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Speaker 2: tell safe pain unsafe pain is one of those essential

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Speaker 2: life skills, and you hit on a key variable. If

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Speaker 2: somebody is rushing and demanding and they don't have patience

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Speaker 2: with your limitations while they expect you to hold up

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Speaker 2: their limitations, there is an imbalance and expectation. This should

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Speaker 2: be a real check.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a good point I think too. Sometimes people

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Speaker 6: are afraid of hurting the other person. Sometimes I think

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Speaker 6: they're maybe afraid of conflict in general, and sometimes they're

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Speaker 6: afraid of retaliation. And unfortunately, retaliation in some relationships can occur.

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Speaker 6: And I'm assuming, so you're a pastor, you had to

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Speaker 6: have experienced retaliation at some point in your min because

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Speaker 6: that's just Jesus said you in this life, you will

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Speaker 6: have trouble. He experienced it. If they hate me, they'll

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Speaker 6: hate you. So somebody who's wrestling with the fear of retaliation,

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Speaker 6: what are some steps they can take internally to begin

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Speaker 6: moving to where they're comfortable setting that balund.

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Speaker 2: A few thoughts come to mind there if we're talking

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Speaker 2: about a physical retaliation where you are unsafe. One thing

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Speaker 2: that Paul says in the early part of Romans thirteen

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Speaker 2: is that the civil authorities bear the sword for a reason,

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Speaker 2: and if there are those who are endangering others, that

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Speaker 2: these civil authorities are God's appointed agents to ensure safety.

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Speaker 2: And so if retaliation has been at that level, it

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Speaker 2: is not unspiritual to get a restraining order or a

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Speaker 2: protective order for others of us. Just disappointing someone is

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Speaker 2: soul crushing, and it's not that we're in physical danger.

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Speaker 2: It just it's like, ah, this withers my heart to

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Speaker 2: disappoint somebody and to recognize what I can do as

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Speaker 2: a fellow human being. I can't be your savior. I

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Speaker 2: can point you to the savior. Amen, I am not

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Speaker 2: your source of hope. I can point you to the

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Speaker 2: direction of hope. And when I feel a burden to

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Speaker 2: do more than any human being could do, I'm not failing.

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Speaker 2: I'm only finite.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And again the number of times, even in non retaliatory

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Speaker 2: relationships as a pastor, where I have to remind myself

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Speaker 2: I'm not failing. I'm just finite.

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Speaker 6: Maybe that's a phrase that listeners can repeat to themselves

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Speaker 6: over and over. And thankfully, we have an infinite God

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Speaker 6: who fills the gaps, and he is well equipped to

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Speaker 6: take care of the entire globe without our help. He

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Speaker 6: might enlist our help, but he can do it without us.

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Speaker 6: And to your point, boundaries aren't unloving. They make healthy

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Speaker 6: love and connection possible. So we're going to take a

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Speaker 6: quick break to hear from our sponsors. When we come back,

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Speaker 6: I would love if you could share from your definition.

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Speaker 6: There's a thousand definitions you can probably give, but a

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Speaker 6: little indication of what healthy boundaries are and what they

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Speaker 6: are not.

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Speaker 1: So we'll be back.

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Speaker 6: And we are back with clear up as much as

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Speaker 6: we can and what is not a healthy boundary?

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Speaker 2: So if I had to pick a spot to go

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Speaker 2: in the Bible to think about boundaries, the spot that

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Speaker 2: to me is most intuitive and helpful is the Book

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Speaker 2: of Proverbs. Proverbs is a book all about avoiding two things.

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Speaker 2: Folly that's within me, and fools those are the people

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Speaker 2: around me. How do I tell who they are and

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Speaker 2: not become like them? And so we read through the

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Speaker 2: Book of Proverbs, and it's going to give us an

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Speaker 2: awful lot of guidance that when I set a boundary,

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying is I'm not going to join you

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Speaker 2: in your sin and folly. And so the boundary isn't

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Speaker 2: so much a line between me and you. It's a

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Speaker 2: line between wisdom and folly, between virtue and vice. And

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Speaker 2: so if somebody is demanding something like I need to

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Speaker 2: be able to call you at any time, and they're

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Speaker 2: calling at two in the morning multiple times over a

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Speaker 2: life stressor that they want to process, well, there's a

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Speaker 2: spot that says I can't function if I am waking

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Speaker 2: up getting that wound up at two in the morning.

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Speaker 2: If you need something that pressing, you probably need more

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Speaker 2: than a friend. There's this limit, and here's the times

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Speaker 2: I am willing to talk that. Now, that's different than

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Speaker 2: a preference. Sometimes the word boundary can get so inflated

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Speaker 2: that it just means preference. It's like, I won't talk

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Speaker 2: to you about anything that upsets me, anything that I

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Speaker 2: find problematic. Again, even there, if you have a harsh

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Speaker 2: person who is being degrading, that's somebody who's being harsh. Uh.

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Speaker 2: If you don't want to talk about recent events, because

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Speaker 2: those are things that bother you. That's of a different

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Speaker 2: way than somebody being degrading. You may ask somebody to

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Speaker 2: honor a limit, like hey, I'm just asking you to

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Speaker 2: honor this part for me, it's better if I don't

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Speaker 2: get into that. And if somebody's not going to honor

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing, then that probably means they're not

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Speaker 2: a great friend. Like the degree to which I expect

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Speaker 2: this to be a life giving relationship, I begin to

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Speaker 2: manage this more like a casual acquaintance or something of

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Speaker 2: that nature.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I would add two. We don't use boundaries to

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Speaker 6: punish someone. I'm mad at you and so I'm not

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Speaker 6: going to talk to you, or I'm mad at you

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Speaker 6: so you can't see your grandkids. And we don't use

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Speaker 6: it to control the other person, like what you can't

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Speaker 6: say this to me? It'd be more like if you

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Speaker 6: speak this way, I'm going to leave. Would be probably

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Speaker 6: a clear boundary. And I wonder if it's in some ways,

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Speaker 6: and going on what you're saying, if boundaries are really

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Speaker 6: about stewardship, what is God calling us to do? How

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Speaker 6: is he calling us to use our time guard our heart?

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Speaker 6: If certain things are creating a lot of resentment within us,

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Speaker 6: that might be an indication that, hey, something's going on here.

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Speaker 6: The one thing I think too with and I'm sure

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Speaker 6: you've dealt with this as a pastor. There is one

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Speaker 6: person I was mentoring. She started to understand boundaries a

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Speaker 6: little when her daughter, who was in elementary school, was

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Speaker 6: noticing the gap. So basically, let me break this down.

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Speaker 6: This woman was rushing in to help everybody else and

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Speaker 6: one day her daughter's like, well, why am I always last?

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Speaker 6: And so I wonder for some listeners, if your most

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Speaker 6: important relationships are suffering because of you're saying yes to

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Speaker 6: something elsewhere, that could be an indication that you maybe

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Speaker 6: need to set a healthy boundary.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I really like what you said there about

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Speaker 2: part of boundaries is life stewardship. I do a fair

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Speaker 2: amount of work and things that are traumatic and really heavy,

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Speaker 2: and so just as a matter of stewardship, I've had

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Speaker 2: to recognize I need to limit certain forms of entertainment hydrama,

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Speaker 2: entertainment that has violent themes. There's parts of that where

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Speaker 2: it's like I'm kind of saturated on those things. More

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Speaker 2: than that, it starts to impact how I sleep and

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Speaker 2: the kind of dreams I have. In a way, that

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Speaker 2: I'm just not functioning as well. There's also the reality

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Speaker 2: I'm called to be a husband and father. That is

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Speaker 2: my first ministry. And so part of being a finite

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Speaker 2: person who lives within the confines of a one hundred

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Speaker 2: and sixty eight hour week is some prime real estate

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Speaker 2: within those one hundred and sixty eight hours ought to

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Speaker 2: go to my wife and our tussons. Those are big

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Speaker 2: rocks that other relationships. It's not that they're less important people,

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Speaker 2: but in my life I have less responsibility towards that.

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Speaker 2: The way that I partition and steward my time is

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Speaker 2: going to change. And then if I'm talking with someone,

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Speaker 2: it's like, Hey, if we go into this area, the

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Speaker 2: conversation tends to go poorly. If I can tell that

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Speaker 2: either of us is beginning to be immature, harsh, disrupted,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to ask that we put the well being

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Speaker 2: of each other ahead of the subject. If we can't

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Speaker 2: do that, the subjects has become too important to continue.

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Speaker 2: And so if you're unwilling for us to end, then

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Speaker 2: I'm going to step away.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In framing it in that kind of stewardship of character,

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Speaker 2: not just winning the debate kind of subject, right, and

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Speaker 2: the really frustrating thing is you can say that as

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Speaker 2: eloquently and politely and kindly without sharpness in your voice,

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Speaker 2: without getting down in your diaphragm, and if the other

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Speaker 2: person is unhealthy, unruly, they're not going to say thank you.

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Speaker 2: But you still need to be okay with recognizing this

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Speaker 2: was the wise thing to do and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: continue in it.

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Speaker 6: Right, So that goes back to like knowing our limit

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Speaker 6: and being okay upsetting people to honor God. That's very

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Speaker 6: much a process. As you were talking, you know, I'm

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Speaker 6: thinking in my life in some of the places I've

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Speaker 6: had to set boundaries. Really boundaries have done well protect relationships.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times.

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Speaker 6: I'm thinking of when you have somebody who's maybe every

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Speaker 6: conversation somehow turns into this big conflict or winning an

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Speaker 6: argument that's not good for the relationship. Right, So it's

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Speaker 6: actually honoring to say I don't like what this does

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Speaker 6: to our relationship.

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Speaker 2: I can think of a dear friend, dear friend and

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Speaker 2: mentor and one of the subject to yours of our

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Speaker 2: day politics. It's really hard for us to have a

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Speaker 2: conversation and my friend not to get upset because they're

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Speaker 2: very passionate about their convictions and views around it, and

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Speaker 2: it's either instant alliance building. There's not room for me

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Speaker 2: to have my own opinions in our conversation. And to me,

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Speaker 2: that's one where it's like, if I can't have a

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Speaker 2: difference of an or the curious question that explores the

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Speaker 2: subject without that being upsetting to you, then I honor

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Speaker 2: you and us best by asking that that either be

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Speaker 2: a subject that we avoid or that there is the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to hit pauls on a conversation if it begins

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Speaker 2: to go that way, and if the other person can't

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Speaker 2: see that as you valuing the relationship, then they value

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Speaker 2: that subject more than they value the relationship. And that's

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Speaker 2: a warning sign.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's a really good point.

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Speaker 6: And so speaking of that, that really involves we have

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Speaker 6: to have kind of a healthy view of self, don't

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Speaker 6: we to be able to make all of these calls

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Speaker 6: I hear from a lot of individuals. Where where it

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Speaker 6: gets confusing is on the one hand, we're told di

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Speaker 6: to yourself, and you know, the whole Philippians too. Jesus

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Speaker 6: did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

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Speaker 6: We emptied himself to the point of dying on the cross,

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Speaker 6: and it can feel very conflicting to know what's the

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Speaker 6: difference between loving sacrificially and healthy selfhood life stewardship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and in a moment of conflict, if we go

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Speaker 2: back to that example, it's in that moment, my dear friend,

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Speaker 2: I'm not rejecting them one. I have to be comfortable

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Speaker 2: being uncomfortable, because this whole dialogue about what's gotten crunchy

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Speaker 2: and spicy between us is going to be uncomfortable. If not,

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Speaker 2: I just shut down. If I am self centered, then

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Speaker 2: I want to win. I want them to agree with me,

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Speaker 2: or to be even uncertain, like I am uncertain about things.

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Speaker 2: If I feel like they're too, that's me imposing me,

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Speaker 2: but for me to be free again. There's a great

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Speaker 2: line in the Chronicles of Nardia, I would go through

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Speaker 2: the wardrobe as many times as I could. If your

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Speaker 2: listeners aren't familiar with that. It's a narrative series by C. S. Lewis,

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Speaker 2: written for children, but with really profound troops in there.

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Speaker 2: There's this scene where Aslan, who represents Christ. It's in

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Speaker 2: the first book in the history where he's just done

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Speaker 2: the creation account and he gathers all of the animals,

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Speaker 2: because this is a world of talking animals to himself.

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Speaker 2: And as he's giving his initials, feel it's like, I

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Speaker 2: give you this land, I give you one another, I

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Speaker 2: give you what you need for food, and he culminates

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Speaker 2: and he says, and I give you yourselves. And for

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Speaker 2: the longest time that struck me as a bit odd.

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Speaker 2: But there is a degree of autonomy without self sufficiency.

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Speaker 2: Like God honors my personal agency, I do get to

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Speaker 2: make choices for me. That freedom is never something that

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Speaker 2: he rops. And when I can't do that, that's where

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Speaker 2: the relationship is. Like, I'm not being selfish to say

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Speaker 2: I want to be able to think for myself. I

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Speaker 2: want to be able to process this at my pace.

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Speaker 2: If you don't allow me to do that, you're imposing

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Speaker 2: I'm not being selfish.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good point.

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Speaker 6: And when you when you mentioned how I don't remember

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Speaker 6: exactly how you said it, but a tendency to shut down.

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Speaker 6: I'm thinking of some people who have either a tendency

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Speaker 6: and maybe they vacillate between the two actually to lash

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Speaker 6: out or shut down, and they're just trying to learn

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Speaker 6: now how to set healthy boundaries and so I want

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Speaker 6: to say a couple of things to our listeners. You'll

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Speaker 6: probably limp along in the beginning. You're gonna mess it up.

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Speaker 6: You might come out too harsh, too strong one moment,

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Speaker 6: and then too soft the next. I think, as long

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Speaker 6: as we're like okay, analyzing and Lord, what can I

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Speaker 6: do differently processing through that, we will make progress. But

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Speaker 6: the other thing I thought, as you're speaking, and I'm

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Speaker 6: thinking for some of our listeners who presently have a

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Speaker 6: lot of unhealthy relationships and so they don't have a

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Speaker 6: lot of modeling of what healthy boundaries look like, that

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Speaker 6: can really destroy, especially if you're the only one in

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Speaker 6: a family starting to get healthy, and then you get

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Speaker 6: all the phone calls from the aunts and the sisters

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Speaker 6: and the mothers and the fathers, and it can be confusing.

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Speaker 6: So I would encourage find, first of all, cultivate relationships

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Speaker 6: with healthy people and begin watching, Like if you know

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Speaker 6: a couple that they've been married thirty years and they

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Speaker 6: seem to get along really well, maybe spend more time

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Speaker 6: with them and watch how they interact with one another.

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Speaker 2: I really like that, And if I could put a

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Speaker 2: word of encouragement to go alongside of it, when you're

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Speaker 2: coming out of a place of on that it's really

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Speaker 2: easy to be intimate d by people that you perceive

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Speaker 2: as healthy, Okay, like I don't belong like I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: mess this up. This feels so foreign and so like

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Speaker 2: when people hear that, I can just imagine many of

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Speaker 2: your listeners going, I would love to do that. One

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Speaker 2: question is how do I find people like that? Yea,

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Speaker 2: by and large, people who have good relationships with their

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Speaker 2: adult children, Okay. One, they tend to be healthy themselves,

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Speaker 2: and because they're empty nesting, they have a little more capacity, okay,

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00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: And then like that kind of helps you find some

437
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 2: people like that, hopefully within your church. And sometimes you

438
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 2: feel like I've got to come and I've got to

439
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: ask a whole bunch of questions as if healthy is

440
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: something that you learn that you master, like algebra, it's

441
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 2: oftentimes something much more that you acclimate to, Okay. And

442
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: one of the variables like internally and I think this

443
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: one just doesn't get the shine that it deserves. Curiosity

444
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: is a great sign of emotional health, Okay. When you're

445
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: in an environment where it's been oppressive type restrictions, high fear,

446
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: the one thing you don't have the freedom to do

447
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: is be curious. And so when you're sitting with that

448
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 2: older couple and they ask you questions, and you're like,

449
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 2: what are they after? What do they want? Why are

450
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: they asking that? Like you're asking questions where everything has

451
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: an agenda, Observe what it is for somebody to just

452
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 2: be curious and interested in you. Because that humility, which

453
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 2: is another facet of healthiness that often gets neglected, One

454
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 2: of the way expresses itself is just the curiosity of

455
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: a free dialogue. And when you're just having dinner with

456
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 2: an older couple and you acclimate to humble, healthy people

457
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: asking curious questions, you getting comfortable. What that can do wonders.

458
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 6: I love that, and I'd probably end as well to

459
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 6: dealing with ourselves first. I'm thinking of I'm going to

460
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 6: paraphrase where Jesus basically laid out how to deal with conflict.

461
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 6: And he first said, deal with the plank in your

462
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 6: eye before you deal with the sawdust and the other

463
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 6: And I love what he said. And then you will

464
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 6: see clearly. And I know a lot of people who

465
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 6: are in that process of becoming healthier. Their perspective right

466
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 6: now is slanted it's skewed by some of the pain

467
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 6: they've experienced, some of the messages they've received. It's going

468
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 6: to take time to unpack all that to get comfortable

469
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 6: around healthy people, like you say, to get comfortable with discomfort.

470
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 6: And so I would say, intentionally focus on becoming the

471
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 6: healthiest version of yourself possible.

472
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 2: And if I can take that passage in one thing

473
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: that I think a lot of our listeners may do

474
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: with it is they hear a lot and that's in

475
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: my eye, that means the biggest problems are with me

476
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: in spec that means anything anybody else does that's really small,

477
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: and see like God is upset with me. I don't

478
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 2: think in that illustration that Jesus was intending log inspect

479
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 2: to have to do with the size of our sin

480
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: or our shortcomings. That log is what it's easiest for

481
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 2: me to get my hands around. It's what I have

482
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 2: the most control over. Spec is what it's really hard

483
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 2: to grab a hold of. And I just I can't

484
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: get that. And so as our listeners are kind of

485
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: wrestling with this, start with those areas that you have

486
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: the most control over. Like in that Jesus say is

487
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: as you begin to manage and steward the things that

488
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: you have the most control over. It will bring clarity

489
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: for the things that you have less control.

490
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: Amen, say that again. That's so good. So say that again.

491
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: As we work on the things that we have the

492
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: most control over, which is usually those things that we're

493
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: most responsible for, and as we do that, it will

494
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: become easier to manage and respond to the things that

495
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: we have less control over. And that means we're gonna usually,

496
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: of all the things that we could work on, we're

497
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: gonna pick one or two. We're going to focus on

498
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: those for a season. We're going to feel like some

499
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: other things are getting neglected. God's not mad at us.

500
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 2: We're setting some priorities that allow us to make progress

501
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: and get to the healthy place he wants us to be.

502
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 6: I love that as we close to our listeners, I

503
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 6: want to leave you with a word of encouragement and

504
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 6: maybe a clear action step. So first, this is a difficult,

505
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 6: often painful, and confusing issue. And I do want to

506
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 6: say we didn't mention this, but for some of you

507
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 6: it might mean lots of important relationships. And so that's

508
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 6: something you're going to have to wrestle with God over

509
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 6: and really seek clarity with that. And that's painful, that's hard.

510
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 6: So I would say give yourself grace. You will make mistakes.

511
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 6: Like I said before, sometimes you'll come off too strong,

512
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 6: too soft. It'll probably feel really uncomfortable in the beginning.

513
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 6: Give yourself time and seek, most importantly, seek God's guidance

514
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 6: through it all. Just do your best to remain in

515
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 6: step with Him and trust. This is this is my

516
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 6: fa one of my favorite promises in scripture. He will

517
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 6: complete the good work he began in you.

518
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: That's his job.

519
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 6: Yours is to turn to him, to make space, to

520
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 6: hear him, to respond to his guidance as best as

521
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 6: you're able. And then one more action step, choose one

522
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 6: area discussed today. Brad emphasize that don't try to do

523
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 6: five hundred things at once. Choose one area to focus

524
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 6: on this coming week. Journal on it, Pray on it,

525
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 6: look up scripture related to it. You can do a

526
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 6: Google search, stay alert to how others live that out

527
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 6: or fail to live that out, and then learn from

528
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 6: what you witness. Really do a deep dive in that

529
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 6: one issue, and then listen to this episode again so

530
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 6: that you can focus on one more thing the next week.

531
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 6: But know this, you deserve love and connection and to

532
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 6: be treated well. You are allowed to advocate for yourself

533
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 6: in a healthy manner. Brad, is there any one last

534
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 6: word of encouragement you would leave with listeners before we close?

535
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I won't add I'll echo that aspect of patience,

536
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: in my mind may be one of the most beautiful

537
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: words in all of Scripture is in Psalm twenty three,

538
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: where it's describing the good shepherd who is alongside of us,

539
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: and it says, as he walks through the valley of

540
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: the shadow of death, there is such patience that we

541
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: have a good shepherd who will move at the pace

542
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: of his sheep. To be an environment that would be

543
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: described as the valley of the shadow of death, i'd

544
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 2: be skinnadling those little sheepees. And we have a shepherd

545
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: who will move at our pace, and even if we

546
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: are walking with a lamp our, shepherd will not leave

547
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: us behind. You do not need to be feel rushed

548
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: by God, and that gives you the freedoms to be

549
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: patient with yourself as you work to make progress.

550
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: Amen.

551
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 6: Awesome, Well, this was a great conversation. Thank you so

552
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 6: much for joining us.

553
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

554
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 7: Hopefully that gave you clarity regarding some things, maybe some

555
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 7: practical steps that you can take, or maybe it just

556
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 7: encouraged you to prayerfully consider this topic a little more

557
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 7: fully and remember that the Lord is leading you every step.

558
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: Of the way and he will not abandon you.

559
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 7: Now, I hope you're finding this entire series helpful. Next week,

560
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 7: Carol will be speaking with one of our favorite Bible teachers,

561
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 7: Kathy Howard, on how to respond instead of react in

562
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 7: difficult relationships. And then the following Tuesday, I'm talking with

563
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 7: neuropsychologist doctor Michelle Bankston on finding peace when relationships don't change.

564
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 7: And then Peril will be back with doctor Michelle Bankston

565
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 7: once again to conclude our series on talking about an

566
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 7: important topic related to the condition of our souls that

567
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 7: will have a dramatic impact on our piece, on all

568
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 7: of our relationships, and on our connection with Chrice. Make

569
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 7: sure to join us, and until next time, may you

570
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 7: live this one who truly has been set free