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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Meeting of Minds podcast. Our guest back

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Speaker 1: again is Dustin de Vido. Dustin is the director of

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Speaker 1: Research at the seventeen ninety two Exchange, a nonprofit organization

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Speaker 1: whose mission is to produce research and develop resources to

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Speaker 1: help steer public entities, specifically companies in the United States

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Speaker 1: back to neutral on ideological issues. We've had Dustin on

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Speaker 1: in the past to discuss issues actually fairly similar to

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Speaker 1: what we're discussing today, but he joins me today to

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Speaker 1: discuss the Corporate Equality Index, one of the most prominent

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Speaker 1: activist scorecards for corporate America, how that has morphed over time,

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Speaker 1: and how we are engaging on these issues to get

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Speaker 1: companies back to politically neutral. Dusty, thanks for being on

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Speaker 1: the show again.

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Speaker 2: Isaac, so good to see you. Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 2: Really glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: It is fun because it's the two kind of gen

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Speaker 1: z people who are in this world, who are almost

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Speaker 1: never This is not the tone which we normally talk

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Speaker 1: to each other. Normally it's very informal, but this time

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Speaker 1: we have to be you know, got to keep it

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Speaker 1: professional for the microphone. So you join me today to

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Speaker 1: discuss the corporate Equality Index. Give me a little bit

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Speaker 1: of background though, seventeen ninety two Exchange, what is that?

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Speaker 1: What is your role? How do you fit into because

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Speaker 1: for people who are listening, you should know this isn't Yes,

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Speaker 1: Dusty is certainly a source matter expert on things like

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Speaker 1: the Corporate Equality Index, but he's also, along with seventeen

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Speaker 1: ninety two Exchange more broadly, one of our really faithful

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Speaker 1: partner organizations and co labors in this mission. So we

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Speaker 1: work Dusty a lot, It's just we don't always have

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Speaker 1: them on the podcast. So it's great to have you on,

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Speaker 1: talk to me a little bit about what seventeen ninety

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Speaker 1: two does, and then just walk the audience through kind

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Speaker 1: of how you fit into this whole corporate engagement ecosystem.

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Speaker 2: Certainly. Yeah, So we have all seen how increasingly hostile

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Speaker 2: corporations have become toward people who are right of center

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Speaker 2: politically or who hold more traditional Christian values. And if

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Speaker 2: we want to get companies to stop promoting divisive social

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Speaker 2: and political issues, then we need to do our best

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Speaker 2: to identify where those radical policies are coming from. Because

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Speaker 2: these things don't exist in the ether. They're advanced, they're

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Speaker 2: institutionalized by real people, by real organizations, and so that

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Speaker 2: was the impetus of seventeen ninety two Exchange was to

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Speaker 2: be able to shine a light on all this activism

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Speaker 2: going on. And so we launched our first flagship database,

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Speaker 2: the Corporate Bias Ratings, February three years ago, and now

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Speaker 2: we're boasting the largest and most comprehensive public database on

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Speaker 2: corporate policies and practices, profiling over four thousand companies now.

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Speaker 2: And something we've noticed as we've continued to build out

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Speaker 2: our suite of databases and to build out the Corporate

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Speaker 2: Bias Ratings in particular, is the influence of the so

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Speaker 2: called Human Rights Campaign and its annual survey that it conducts.

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Speaker 2: So every year, the Human Rights Campaign releases a survey

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Speaker 2: to push companies to adopt progressive policies in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: This is the Corporate Equality Index the CEI. So they

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Speaker 2: started this in two thousand and two and then fight

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Speaker 2: the largest companies headquartered in the United States and the

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Speaker 2: largest law firms to participate in the index, as well

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Speaker 2: as any company who has at least five hundred employees

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Speaker 2: who request to participate in the survey. So this has

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Speaker 2: been an organization in a survey that we have continued

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Speaker 2: to highlight on our website, in our databases and various

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Speaker 2: media outlets and corporate engagement efforts because we can see

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Speaker 2: that this is one of the most influential outside activist

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Speaker 2: groups on internal corporate governance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that influence is partially what we're having you

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Speaker 1: on the show to discuss. Right, So, as we're seeing

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Speaker 1: if you're paying attention to the news, obviously everyone's seeing

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Speaker 1: a lot of news about kind of the retreat from

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Speaker 1: gender ideology pretty broadly, and maybe God willing the formation

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Speaker 1: of a new kind of pro sanity, pro normalcy consensus

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Speaker 1: specifically surrounding gender transitions, that sort of thing. But what

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Speaker 1: people need to understand is, again, obviously for the past

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Speaker 1: during the past decade, it seems as if there was

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Speaker 1: no real end in sight to gender ideology in the

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Speaker 1: public square. Whether that's in academia it was certainly very pronounced,

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Speaker 1: but in corporate America it was pronounced too, And people

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Speaker 1: need to understand that that was not organic. That didn't

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Speaker 1: just happen overnight. That was a coordinated effort from a

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Speaker 1: lot of very activist organizations like Human Rights Campaign to

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Speaker 1: get into the boardroom, right, and that was helped by

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Speaker 1: the fact that conservatives, regrettably and pro fiduciary people more broadly,

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Speaker 1: pro free enterprise people more broadly didn't engage on the issue.

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Speaker 1: As that was happening, groups like the Human Rights Campaign

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Speaker 1: brought activist scorecards right, activist rating systems like the Index

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Speaker 1: into the board room, and with no kind of opposition,

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Speaker 1: with no really robust opposition in place, it kind of

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Speaker 1: became a benchmark uncontested, to the great detriment of many

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Speaker 1: of the brands of But the reason I mentioned the

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Speaker 1: influence part is because that is starting to go down obviously,

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Speaker 1: so there is CNBC Peace will link to it in

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Speaker 1: the show notes about the Corporate Equality Index. Is the

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Speaker 1: decline in participation in the Corporate Equality Index, and that

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Speaker 1: started especially with the release of twenty twenty six data.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about some of that twenty twenty six

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Speaker 1: data from the CEI are what are kind of the

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Speaker 1: top line ish results, what's different? Talk to me about

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Speaker 1: some of the broader trends we're seeing with that.

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Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, So to your point about the uncontested activist scorecard, First,

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Speaker 2: I think it's important to remember that in the first

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Speaker 2: survey they issued in two thousand and two, they only

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Speaker 2: had eighty nine companies officially participating, and that built and

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Speaker 2: built and built. Until last year it was almost fifteen

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Speaker 2: hundred companies officially participating. And what we're noticing is now,

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Speaker 2: for the first time ever, there's a mass exodus away

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Speaker 2: from both the index also from sponsoring the Human Rights

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Speaker 2: Campaign who's putting up this index, And just remembering the

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Speaker 2: history of the past twenty five years, you've had dozens

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Speaker 2: of major corporate sponsors of the HRC and the HRC

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Speaker 2: Foundation because they operate as a C three n a

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Speaker 2: C four And these are the usual suspects Disney, Starbucks, Pfizer, Apple,

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Speaker 2: but it's also unusual suspects BP, Shell, Dell, and these

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Speaker 2: companies are sponsoring their events across the country, their dinners

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Speaker 2: across the country. They're bragging about their CEI score and

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Speaker 2: having a Best place to Work designation. And now for

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Speaker 2: the first time ever, we're seeing the cracks showing and

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Speaker 2: that the influence of this group is being exposed, and

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Speaker 2: there's companies that are willing to at least reconsider and

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Speaker 2: start making decisions in light of what they think is

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Speaker 2: best for their company and not necessarily what the HRC

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Speaker 2: is asking them to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it's interesting that whole notion of a perfect

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Speaker 1: score on the Corporate Equality Index meant a lot of

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Speaker 1: different things, and presumably when it was introduced, it meant

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Speaker 1: something very specific. We mentioned this with companies. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the companies that you mentioned as partners of the

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Speaker 1: Human Rights Campaign or companies that we have the point

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Speaker 1: of Research has done corporate engagement with that you seventeen

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Speaker 1: ninety two, and you've been in those meetings with us

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Speaker 1: having that conversation, And one of the points we make

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Speaker 1: all the time is this was a group where once

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Speaker 1: their influence could have been seen as a simple as

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Speaker 1: a simple encouragement to not discriminate against gay employees, which

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Speaker 1: is a completely reasonable and fair take. That's one that

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Speaker 1: no serious company or investor would want to do otherwise.

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Speaker 1: But it's morphed over time. So talk to me about

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six, this latest release of the Corporate

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Speaker 1: Equality Index. If a company has a perfect score on

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Speaker 1: the Corporate Equality Index, what does that actually mean? What

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Speaker 1: is that signaling at the very least, what is that

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Speaker 1: signaling alignment.

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Speaker 2: With Yeah, to your point, Isaac, We actually made a

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Speaker 2: graphic and it shows how the requirements to get a

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Speaker 2: score of one hundred on the CI have changed year

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Speaker 2: over year, because every few years they will have a

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Speaker 2: new set of criteria for the CI. So there's six

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Speaker 2: iterations in total, and companies who have a score of

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Speaker 2: one hundred are committed to, as you say, not just

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Speaker 2: non discrimination policies, which would be uncontested largely, but also

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Speaker 2: things like covering transgender related costs for employees and covered dependents.

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Speaker 2: This includes puberty blockers or reconstructive surgeries. This is providing

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Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus Benefits guide and transition guidelines to the employees.

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Speaker 2: This is requiring non religious charities to vet eligible donations

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Speaker 2: based on gender identity. This has required trainings, marketing, pledging,

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Speaker 2: philanthropic support of transgender organizations, so on and so forth.

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Speaker 2: And so the criteria change every few years, the goalposts move,

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Speaker 2: and so there's never going to be a point at

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Speaker 2: which a company changes its policies and then the human

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Speaker 2: rights campaign says okay, now we're done. They'll continue to

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Speaker 2: change the policies, and so companies need to remember to

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Speaker 2: do what's best for them and not be listening to

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Speaker 2: this outside organization.

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Speaker 1: One other question I wanted to ask about the Corporate

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Speaker 1: Equality Index. Are there new changes that have happened this year?

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Speaker 1: We talk about obviously the benchmarks for one hundred, but

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Speaker 1: what are changes that have happened this year that people

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Speaker 1: should be should be aware of from this iteration.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question, Isaac. There actually are quite a

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Speaker 2: number of changes this year that the HRC has made

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Speaker 2: very quietly, and it's really important that we tell people

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Speaker 2: what they're changing, because they might not be telling the

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Speaker 2: companies so clearly. So they actually reduced requirements in two

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Speaker 2: key areas. One was in required trainings. There's five listed trainings.

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Speaker 2: Used to have to do four for full points. Now

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Speaker 2: you just have to do one of four trainings, not

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Speaker 2: four of five. And then they reduced requirements for full

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Speaker 2: points in demonstrated efforts of outreach and engagement to the

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Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus community. That's where you were getting items marketed

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Speaker 2: specifically to the trenchgender community, like with Dylan Mulvinian bud

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Speaker 2: Light sponsorship of Pride Braids. That used to be five efforts,

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Speaker 2: it's now one. And so the case that there is

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Speaker 2: a retreat is honestly understated. Because the numbers, as stated

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Speaker 2: are inflated. So, in other words, if you've drastically lowered

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Speaker 2: the bar in two areas and then saying oh, things

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Speaker 2: are fine, well no, because you've lowered them in two

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Speaker 2: key areas. They actually withdrew demonstrated public support for LGBTQ

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Speaker 2: plus legislation as a way to get points. That wasn't

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Speaker 2: a way to get points anymore. And of course they've

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Speaker 2: continued to raise the bar for what it means to

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Speaker 2: get points in the trenchgender healthcare category. But then the

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Speaker 2: other things real quick that I want to say that

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Speaker 2: they did for the first time, for the first time ever,

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Speaker 2: they stopped including a list of corporations who scored one

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Speaker 2: hundred on their website and then the report, they stopped

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Speaker 2: providing a PDF list of all scores of companies pernticipating

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Speaker 2: they quietly removed a list of individuals serving on their

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Speaker 2: business advisory council. That's where Cracker Barrel got into trouble

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Speaker 2: because they had an executive serving on that council and

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Speaker 2: they didn't. They committed to destroy all materials companies submitted

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Speaker 2: to them in this survey cycle and removed all the

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Speaker 2: details from corporate profiles on their website, so they're definitely

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Speaker 2: in panic mode. There's a lot they're changing.

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Speaker 1: This was all quiet.

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Speaker 2: We had to find this out ourselves as we dug

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Speaker 2: through their website and the resources that have come out

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Speaker 2: over the past few weeks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, let's be honest about what

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Speaker 1: that is. That's a brand saving move, right in the

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Speaker 1: sense of you don't have to do nearly as much

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Speaker 1: to get a perfect score, but we do really want

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Speaker 1: the brands there to create this. We can call it

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Speaker 1: an illusion that just as many companies have perfect scores,

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Speaker 1: as we lower the bar specifically for things that look

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Speaker 1: we just put it this way. There's a question to

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Speaker 1: be asked there if that is the strategy. Is that

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Speaker 1: the mark of an organization that can about genuine inclusion

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Speaker 1: or is that the mark of an organization that cares

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Speaker 1: about padding numbers, specifically the ones that help them fundraise,

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Speaker 1: which there's nothing wrong with fundraising, but don't act like

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Speaker 1: it's purely humanitarian, don't act like it's purely incorporation's best interest.

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Speaker 1: It's a tactical move at its heart. And I think,

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Speaker 1: after after what we've been saying about the CEI. I

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Speaker 1: think we can understand why that exists, partially because the

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Speaker 1: risk calculus, the inputs for the risk calculus are very different. Right,

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Speaker 1: So when we talk to a lot of companies specifically,

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Speaker 1: and as as you're going to kind of see from

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Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, the healthcare issue keeps coming up

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Speaker 1: again and again and again as an area of primary

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Speaker 1: investor concern. Because it's one thing to say you should

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Speaker 1: have robust non discrimination policies in the workplace. As we said, no,

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Speaker 1: no one's serious would disagree with that. But what happens

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Speaker 1: is this goalpost shifting. That is and this is by

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Speaker 1: the way, this is a out problem with corporations that

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Speaker 1: start taking marching orders from activists, or if not marching orders,

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Speaker 1: start really relying heavily on activist influences. You go from

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Speaker 1: you go from genuine business first risk analysis to well,

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Speaker 1: who is actually offering us insight as to the optimal

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Speaker 1: healthcare practices? Is it business first people or is it WPATH?

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Speaker 1: This is the World Professional Professional Association on Transgender Health.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's different because the risk is so unbelievably.

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Speaker 1: Let's put it this way, and this is an argument

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Speaker 1: that you've been a part of talking to companies and

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Speaker 1: being many of these meetings of there has been a

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Speaker 1: systemic under assessment of the risks of company policies with

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Speaker 1: regards to gender transition care, specifically in regards to surgery.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, there has been one could argue

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Speaker 1: a systemic overweight of the benefits of these sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: So for years, the narrative was sold to companies that

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Speaker 1: if you cover gender transition care, if you cover and

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Speaker 1: we've corresponded over email about this a couple of days ago,

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Speaker 1: this is not just this is not just basic stuff.

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Speaker 1: This is reconstructive hair removal, this is facial surgery, is

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Speaker 1: all this sort of thing. For years, the narrative that

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Speaker 1: was pushed by groups like Human Rights Campaign, by groups

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Speaker 1: like WPATH, which is where the risk calculus comes from.

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Speaker 1: The narrative was, if you cover all those things, that

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Speaker 1: is the least risky thing, and this whole detransitioner thing,

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Speaker 1: don't worry your head about that, this whole legal risks

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Speaker 1: of performing gender transition surgery, especially when it comes to

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Speaker 1: people under eighteen, don't worry your head about that. There

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Speaker 1: is a complete there's a very asymmetric assessment of risk

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Speaker 1: that happened that companies were kind of sold a if

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Speaker 1: not altogether false, were sold a fundamentally biased bill of

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Speaker 1: goods that presented with the values were rescued. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's what happened with a lot of companies that

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Speaker 1: got really in deep with HRC, and now, of course

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Speaker 1: we're seeing that start to bail out. Does that seem

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Speaker 1: like an accurate assessment to you?

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Speaker 2: It does seem like an accurate assessment. The HRC itself

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Speaker 2: has bragged about corporate adoption of policies that it's been

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Speaker 2: pushing for years. So what this looks like is the HRC,

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Speaker 2: outside of its criteria in the current cycle, will say, hey,

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Speaker 2: here are some best practices that companies are implementing. We're

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Speaker 2: not grading them on it, but here's best practices. And

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Speaker 2: then a few years later it's hey, here's an optional

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Speaker 2: way to get points in this category. And then finally,

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Speaker 2: this is now required in order to get points on

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Speaker 2: the CEI. And that same pattern happened with Trensgender Healthcare.

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Speaker 2: So in two thousand and nine, HRC had a three

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Speaker 2: year educational and consultative campaign to specifically the major healthcare providers,

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Speaker 2: and they were citing WPATH and talking about data and

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Speaker 2: this actually has a lot of benefits, there's not really

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Speaker 2: any harms, and trying to convince the companies to add

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Speaker 2: these benefits, specifically the major healthcare companies, because of course

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Speaker 2: the corporate health care plans are downstream from there. And

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Speaker 2: so this was in two thousand and nine, it began,

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Speaker 2: and they told them three years ahead of time, Hey,

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Speaker 2: and twenty twelve, we're going to start grading you on this.

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Speaker 2: And then a few years later, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: all the major healthcare providers who previously were not offering

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Speaker 2: these benefits, we're now offering them. And so this is

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Speaker 2: something they've talked about publicly and they've owned and it's

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Speaker 2: not just transgender benefits. This is the LGBTQ Benefits Guide.

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Speaker 2: This is adding gender identity into certain policies. And as

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Speaker 2: you alluded to already, they even raised the bar quietly

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Speaker 2: in that section of the CEI this year. So now

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Speaker 2: companies seeking a one hundred must now cover at least

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Speaker 2: five of the following services. Reconstructive hair removal, cosmetic hair removal,

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Speaker 2: tracheal shape reduction, facial feminization surgeries, voice modification, cation surgeries,

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Speaker 2: lipoplasts or fillings for masculization or feminization, and traveling in

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Speaker 2: logic expenses, and so again, even in a time where

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Speaker 2: so called gender affirming care is under increasing public scrutiny,

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Speaker 2: and even though this is something that's very controversial that

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Speaker 2: companies shouldn't want to wait until the HRC is still

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Speaker 2: slowly quietly raising the bar in this area, and it's

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Speaker 2: important for us to name specifically what they're asking for

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Speaker 2: so that people can realize how absurd it really is.

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Speaker 1: I think that's right. And you know, for years we've

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Speaker 1: told companies and this is not just related to healthcare,

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Speaker 1: this is on broader issues. We made this point to

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Speaker 1: Netflix about content that sexualizes children. We make this point

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Speaker 1: about some of the more egregious corporate ad campaigns that

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Speaker 1: happen during Pride Month. But when it comes to anything

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Speaker 1: that involves really anything that involves children, whether it's gender

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Speaker 1: affirming care, whether it's sexualized content, whether it's advertising that's

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Speaker 1: not age appropriate, well, people really do drop right lines

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Speaker 1: around certain things. And what I think what we're witnessing

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Speaker 1: right now, and we're going to talk about kind of

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Speaker 1: that exodus of support in a minute, is that bright

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Speaker 1: line got crossed. So talk to me about this major

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Speaker 1: drop in support for Human Rights campaign, give me some

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Speaker 1: of the top line numbers on that. What are we seeing?

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Speaker 1: And then I guess at a broader level, what do

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Speaker 1: you make of that retreat? Is that purely symbolic? Is

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Speaker 1: that purely on vibes or you or are we talking

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Speaker 1: about some of what you're seeing with that?

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Speaker 2: Sure, So if you have been following that this issue

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Speaker 2: or any related issues in the audience, you probably remember

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Speaker 2: when tractor supply flipped in June of twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: and that was notable because it was the first public

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Speaker 2: company that was willing to publicly renounce HRC and or

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Speaker 2: the CI. And what's significant about the relief of this

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Speaker 2: survey cycle was it's the first survey cycle that's reflecting

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Speaker 2: that decision and the subsequent decision made by twenty five

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Speaker 2: other major public companies to distance themselves from the CI. So,

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Speaker 2: in other words, until this data came out last month,

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Speaker 2: we weren't sure the extent to which the exodus was

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Speaker 2: taking place. We know, okay, twenty six major companies have

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Speaker 2: walked away, but we didn't know to what extent that

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Speaker 2: was representative of the broader fortune population. So what's the

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Speaker 2: top line result. The top line result, as you said,

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Speaker 2: is sixty five percent less Fortune five hundred companies participated

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Speaker 2: this year. So three hundred and seventy seven participated last

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Speaker 2: year officially participated, meaning they were submitting documentation through an

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Speaker 2: online HRC portal about their policies and practices. There's three

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy seven last year who did that. Only

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Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty one this year. And this is

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Speaker 2: the first CI where the average Fortune five hundred rating

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Speaker 2: did not increase year over year for the same set

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Speaker 2: of CI criteria. And notably, this was the first year

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Speaker 2: since inviting the Fortune one thousand to participate a slightly

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Speaker 2: broader audience that the HRC didn't talk about what percent

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Speaker 2: of the Fortune one thousand filled it out, So we

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Speaker 2: had to manually pull that data ourselves, and it's about

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Speaker 2: the same. Sixty one percent less of the Fortune one

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Speaker 2: thousand participated this year. So last year, five hundred and

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Speaker 2: thirty four Fortune one thousand companies officially participated and this

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Speaker 2: year it was only two hundred and ten. And that

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Speaker 2: same pattern of retreat. This data also is seen in

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Speaker 2: the number of perfect scores, and so one hundred and

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Speaker 2: eight Fortune five hundred ranked businesses achieved a verified score

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Speaker 2: of one hundred this cycle, and that's down from two

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty four last year, so it's a fifty

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Speaker 2: two percent drop year over year in the score of

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Speaker 2: one hundred.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we had this conversation with the company yesterday. I

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Speaker 1: was going to say, I won't say which one it is,

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Speaker 1: but I honestly can't remember which one it is, so

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Speaker 1: that works out perfectly. But we had this whole conversation

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Speaker 1: with the company that had recently dropped out of the

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Speaker 1: Corporate Equality Index, and the point we made was, you

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Speaker 1: are in You're in very good company. You're in very

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Speaker 1: mainstream company, because cutting ties with activist groups like Human

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Speaker 1: Rights Campaign is now that is now normative practice. And

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Speaker 1: I've explained it to people before in saying that this

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Speaker 1: is like, this is kind of like Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 1: in its own way, in kind of a broad influx

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Speaker 1: of support and then a couple of years of just

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Speaker 1: absolute madness and then a couple and then a broad

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Speaker 1: outflow of support. And I bring that up partially to

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Speaker 1: give a cultural parallel, but also to make the point

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Speaker 1: of we don't want that to happen over and over again.

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Speaker 1: We don't really want activist boom bust cycles hitting businesses

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Speaker 1: because what political neutrality allows people to do is it

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Speaker 1: takes you out of Jerry Boyer describes this as it

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Speaker 1: takes the company out of the punishment seat, right, because

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Speaker 1: when you start taking sides on issues, if you take

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Speaker 1: a side that's kind of more traditionally to the left,

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Speaker 1: the right gets mad at you. And if you get

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Speaker 1: and vice versa. And what companies are doing by cutting

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Speaker 1: ties with human rights campaign is you're reducing the amount

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Speaker 1: of things that the company is reasonably expected to have

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Speaker 1: a take on, because companies don't need to have takes

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Speaker 1: on every single issue that impacts everyone. Companies don't need

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Speaker 1: to have takes on everyone's pet issues. So talk to

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Speaker 1: me about the future. Right, we're in the middle of Obviously,

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Speaker 1: there's been an ADMIN change, and there's been a corresponding

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Speaker 1: sea change in corporate America executive orders. We've gotten a

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Speaker 1: lot of very very good ones. We're seeing some very

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Speaker 1: very good trends in corporate America, walking away from activism,

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Speaker 1: getting rid of politicized deep banking, implementing more politically neutral,

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Speaker 1: religiously neutral socially neutral policies. Where do you think that

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Speaker 1: this is all going? Do you think I think this

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Speaker 1: is just going. Do you think we're going to go

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Speaker 1: into kind of a boom and bust cycle, or do

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Speaker 1: you think we're going to see real political neutrality in

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Speaker 1: the next couple of years. What do you think there?

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Speaker 2: It's hard to answer that question because we've never had

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Speaker 2: to perform the reverse march through corporate America, being so

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Speaker 2: attached to a particular set of progressive values, and so

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Speaker 2: it's going to take a few years for us to

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Speaker 2: figure out exactly what that looks like. And of course

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Speaker 2: it's highly influenced by the political and regulatory landscape. So

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Speaker 2: what should we do. Well, we have to continue to

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Speaker 2: keep corporations accountable and to make sure that they're serving

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Speaker 2: their shareholders and that they're doing what they say they're

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Speaker 2: going to do. And so if every company stopped filling

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Speaker 2: out the CEI next year, but they kept doing the policies,

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Speaker 2: then that wouldn't really matter. What we want to see

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Speaker 2: is that this is just the first step in distancing

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Speaker 2: themselves from policies that represent side taking. Or if everybody

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Speaker 2: stopped but they didn't stop sponsoring the Human Rights Campaign.

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Speaker 2: Then that would also be questionable because this is a

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Speaker 2: group that's clearly partisan in nature, and most of the

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Speaker 2: companies are Many of the companies who sponsored the HRC

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Speaker 2: don't sponsor an equivalent organization on the other side of

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Speaker 2: the political spectrum.

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Speaker 1: You could say, it is to your point right about details,

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Speaker 1: getting rid of what could be broadly termed well, I

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Speaker 1: won't even say that. Getting rid of political bias out

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Speaker 1: of corporate policies is not you wave a magic wand

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Speaker 1: and it goes away. Right. There's a certain level of

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Speaker 1: that that just happens, but getting rid of that takes

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Speaker 1: real detail work.

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Speaker 2: And an example I'd love to bring up, if you

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Speaker 2: don't mind me interrupting you, because it just popped into

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Speaker 2: my head and I don't want to forget it, is

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Speaker 2: that two of the companies who made public pledges to

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Speaker 2: get back to neutral was T Mobile and Target. They

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Speaker 2: both pledged within the last year or so that they

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Speaker 2: would stop funding non business causes, which is great, and

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Speaker 2: then they subsequently withdrew a lot of their corporate sponsorships

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Speaker 2: from outside activist organizations, including the HRC. And it's then

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Speaker 2: surprised me last month when I was notified that they

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Speaker 2: were added again as listed corporate sponsors on the HRC's website.

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Speaker 2: And so what we don't want to happen is that

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Speaker 2: companies are making these changes and then the eyeballs go

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Speaker 2: off of them and then they get pulled right back

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Speaker 2: into this because our whole point is that we don't

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Speaker 2: want companies to be conservative companies or to be Christian companies,

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Speaker 2: want them to be companies to focus on their business.

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Speaker 2: And what's clearly going on here is that they are

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Speaker 2: affiliating with external organizations that only have one set of

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Speaker 2: priorities in mind. And so we have to make sure

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Speaker 2: that from every angle, from the shareholder angle and the

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Speaker 2: customers and employees and seventeen ninety two as an institution

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Speaker 2: that does a lot of data research and analysis, that

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Speaker 2: we're really holding up the magnifying glass to know what's

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Speaker 2: going on and helping them understand that we're on their side,

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Speaker 2: we are rooting for them, and hopefully we can serve

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Speaker 2: as a counterbalance to the pressure that they're facing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, you have this

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Speaker 1: line that you use a lot in meetings, which I love,

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Speaker 1: which is coming as an open hand, not a clenched fist,

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Speaker 1: which I really appreciate it because to your point about

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Speaker 1: not wanting companies to be Christian companies, what do you

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Speaker 1: want companies to do? So now, our answer to that,

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Speaker 1: and you and I are both Christians, but our answer

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Speaker 1: to that is we want companies to serve the needs

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Speaker 1: of humanity right, as David Boonson says, we want we

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Speaker 1: want companies to focus on like right now or do

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Speaker 1: we have We've had a lot of engagement defense contractors

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Speaker 1: because when things happen with the homeland needs to be

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Speaker 1: kept safe. We want companies on mission. We don't. We

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Speaker 1: don't want them focusing on activist stuff that results in

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Speaker 1: the worst kind of mission creep, which is creep away

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Speaker 1: from the mission. I will say one other thing about that,

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Speaker 1: which is we have a lot of discussions in our

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Speaker 1: movement about credit right, credit sharing, that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and who gets the credit for what. I am perfectly

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Speaker 1: comfortable saying on the record that seventeen ninety two Exchange

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Speaker 1: in large part because of your work and the many,

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Speaker 1: many wonderful people at seventeen ninety two have done unbelievable

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Speaker 1: levels of yeoman's work in this You all have been

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Speaker 1: sounding the whistle on this early. You've been getting in

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Speaker 1: the details. You understand the details, You understand the fight

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Speaker 1: at the deepest possible level. And thank you. Tell us

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Speaker 1: more about how we can support you and your work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for that shout out, Isaac,

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Speaker 2: But right back to you guys, A boy or research

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00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 2: I mean, have been awesome in terms of building relationships

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Speaker 2: with these companies and walking them through the data and

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Speaker 2: the research that we provide and helping them to understand

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Speaker 2: that this is in their best interest to stop the

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00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: sponsorships and the partnerships. In terms of following the seventeen

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Speaker 2: ninety two Exchange and supporting our work, people can follow

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00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: us on Twitter, true Social, LinkedIn at seventeen ninety two Exchange.

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00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: They can check out our research and subscribe to our

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Speaker 2: newsletters at seventeen ninety two Exchange dot com. And for

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Speaker 2: anyone who's in the corporate space, any corporate executives out there,

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Speaker 2: I'd encourage them to do a few things. One to

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Speaker 2: check out our back to business tracker on our website

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Speaker 2: seventeen ninety two Exchange dot com. It shows the concrete

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Speaker 2: steps major companies are taking to get out of these

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Speaker 2: divisive issues and to refocus on core business priorities. I

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Speaker 2: would say two emailing corporate dot engagement at seventeen at

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Speaker 2: seventeen ninety two, exchange dot com for confidential pro bono

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Speaker 2: help getting back to neutral. And then the last thing

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Speaker 2: I would say is, yeah, in light of all this information,

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Speaker 2: reconsidering official participation in the CI, use of policies they

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Speaker 2: adopted because of the CI in the first place that

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Speaker 2: are not good for their business, and sponsorship of HRC

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Speaker 2: or any other organization that's an external activist, partisan organization

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Speaker 2: that wants to influence your policies in a way that's

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Speaker 2: side taking and that is not in the best interest

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Speaker 2: of your company.

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Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. See that's the spirit,

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Speaker 1: that's the pro engagement, not running away spirit that you

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Speaker 1: all bring to this discussion. This has been great. Dusty,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being.

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Speaker 2: On, Isaac, thanks so much for having me on. It's

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Speaker 2: great to see you.

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Speaker 1: That's always great. This is what you're experiencing right now

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Speaker 1: is the room where it happens in terms of corporate engagement.

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Speaker 1: Because ninety percent of the time when Dusty and I

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Speaker 1: are in the same room, we're working on doing this work,

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Speaker 1: so it was a privilege to be able to bring

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Speaker 1: you all into the room where it happens today. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to Meeting of Minds. Catch you next time.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Isaac