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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly propicient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian and doctor James Spencer. I'm joined

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Speaker 1: by doctor Ashish Marma, and today we're going to continue

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Speaker 1: our conversation about Christian manhood. We're taking a slightly different

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Speaker 1: direction because Father's Day is coming up, and so we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit about men as fathers,

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Speaker 1: men in the.

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Speaker 2: Role of fathers.

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Speaker 1: And to do that, we're going to take a look

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Speaker 1: at Ephesians five and six. Primarily, we're going to start

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Speaker 1: in Ephesians five fifteen through twenty one, which really is

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Speaker 1: the prologue, let's say, or the beginning of a section

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Speaker 1: that discusses the relationships between various different roles within the

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Speaker 1: Christian community. So husband's wives, children, parents, and master's servants.

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Speaker 1: But five point fifteen through twenty one really does begin

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Speaker 1: to set this up. And so to begin this episode,

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Speaker 1: I'll just read through this and then we're going to

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Speaker 1: have a little discussion on it, and then we'll jump

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Speaker 1: over to chapter six, which is where fathers and sons

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Speaker 1: are fathers and children are really addressed. So here's Ephesians

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Speaker 1: five fifteen through twenty one. Look carefully, then, how you walk,

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Speaker 1: not as unwise, but as wise, making the best use

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Speaker 1: of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore to

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Speaker 1: not be foolish, but understand what the will of the

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Speaker 1: Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for

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Speaker 1: that is debauchery. But be filled with the spirit, addressing

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Speaker 1: one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing

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Speaker 1: and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving

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Speaker 1: thanks always and for everything to God the Father, in

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Speaker 1: the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one

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Speaker 1: another of reverence for Christ. That's where we're going to start,

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Speaker 1: and this sets the context for everything we're going to

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Speaker 1: say really about being a father going forward. So any

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Speaker 1: initial thoughts on this section.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the it's important to note that all of

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Speaker 3: these these parts of the passage that are easy to

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Speaker 3: separate out are really flowing one from from one to

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Speaker 3: the next, right, Like we're working from five point fifteen forward,

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Speaker 3: and then we're picking up at the beginning of chapter six.

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Speaker 3: We're not skipping over the husbands and wives part at

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Speaker 3: this particular moment, or the masters and slaves part for

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Speaker 3: any other reason. Then they're really blocking. They're getting to

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Speaker 3: the same pathos of what this formation as people who

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Speaker 3: are to imitate Christ look like. But the dynamics of

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Speaker 3: exactly how that look in different relationships are what at

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Speaker 3: play here. Right, So the way that one might work

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Speaker 3: in an employment setting and how that might look like

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Speaker 3: to have the mind of Christ is different than one

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Speaker 3: might have towards a spouse in kind, but not in pathos,

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Speaker 3: And the way that looks as a parent, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's going to have a sort of a different sort

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Speaker 3: of authority structure than between a spouse. The parent is

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Speaker 3: a parent, not a friend, right, and the child is

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Speaker 3: the child, not a friend. But the same underlying reality

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Speaker 3: of being wise of having the mind of Christ is

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Speaker 3: what's a play. So this is really what Paul's trying

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Speaker 3: to parse out for the church and ephesis in ways

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Speaker 3: that we've talked about of about paradigms or patterns, where

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Speaker 3: we have to discern what does that pattern look like

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Speaker 3: in the present in our places. And the key here

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Speaker 3: is to be four by the mind of Christ in

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Speaker 3: a way that it's going to it's going to bring

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Speaker 3: forth the wisdom. And I think that dynamic of wisdom

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Speaker 3: is something we're going to keep bringing up, should keep

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Speaker 3: bringing up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that when we think about wisdom,

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Speaker 1: you know, Old Testament context, wisdom is really understanding we

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Speaker 1: could we can summarize it as understanding how to live

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Speaker 1: before a holy God, how to live maybe under God's authority.

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Speaker 1: I would say it's deeply, you know, conceptually connected to

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Speaker 1: something like a discipleship. Right, We're constantly learning to live

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Speaker 1: in light of reality, and that reality is particularly the

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Speaker 1: reality of the trying God. And so I think that

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Speaker 1: wisdom here is, Look, let's understand the context. You're no

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Speaker 1: longer in the world in the sense that you are

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Speaker 1: trapped and controlled and under the influence of the systems

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Speaker 1: and structures of the society in which you live, and

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Speaker 1: these are the only possibilities you have because now you

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Speaker 1: have been connected to the God who is capable of

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Speaker 1: doing abundantly more than you could ever ask or think.

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Speaker 2: That's Ephesians three ten. Right.

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Speaker 1: So you've got this new vista of opportunities opened up,

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Speaker 1: and what that requires of you is to live into

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Speaker 1: those things, to live wisely as opposed to unwisely. And

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Speaker 1: we sort of see that dichotomy here in fifteen through

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Speaker 1: twenty one. We see it with the do not get

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Speaker 1: drunk with wine, for that as debauchery, but be filled

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Speaker 1: with the spirit. There's a different control mechanism that should

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Speaker 1: be part of your life. It shouldn't be the wine.

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Speaker 1: You shouldn't be allowing the wine to change your behavior

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Speaker 1: in such a way that you lose control of yourself.

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Speaker 1: What you should be doing is handing over that control

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Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit, allowing the Holy Spirit to fill you.

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Speaker 1: And what comes out of that is then addressing one

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Speaker 1: another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and

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Speaker 1: make a melody all over the heart, giving thanks always

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Speaker 1: and everything in the name of God the Father, and

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Speaker 1: then submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

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Speaker 1: That last phrase, submitting to one another out of reverence

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Speaker 1: for Christ is au and what we understand to be

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Speaker 1: carried through the rest of chapter five and into chapter six.

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Speaker 2: And I would just make one comment on that.

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Speaker 1: Number One, I think all of these from verse nineteen

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Speaker 1: all the way through twenty one are intended to give

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Speaker 1: us a picture of the sort of relationships we're supposed

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Speaker 1: to have. Right These are supposed to be God honoring relationships,

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Speaker 1: things that are constantly pointing to and glorifying the Lord God.

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Speaker 1: But I think the submission aspect is important for a

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Speaker 1: couple of reasons. Number One, it's connected to the reverence

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Speaker 1: of Christ. And so sometimes it's easy for us to

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Speaker 1: think in terms of especially as we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: male female relationships, but I would also say the husband

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Speaker 1: or the father son relationships. It's easy to think about

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Speaker 1: the submission part. Right one is to be submissive to

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Speaker 1: the other. My kids should listen to me, because I'm

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Speaker 1: the dad and I have the authority and I know better.

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Speaker 2: That submission part.

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Speaker 1: Is easy to think about. What I think is difficult

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Speaker 1: to think about is out of reverence for Christ. So

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Speaker 1: when I think of that phrase, I think of then

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Speaker 1: a reorientation of the relationship I have with my children

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Speaker 1: because that relationship emerges out of my relationship with Christ.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing these things out of reverence for Jesus, and

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Speaker 1: thus it is a constant characteristic, not something situational.

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Speaker 2: It's not manipulative.

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Speaker 1: It's a constant disposition that I carry with me that

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Speaker 1: out of reverence for Christ, I am going to act

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Speaker 1: in a certain way, even if acting in a certain

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Speaker 1: way is not affecting the behaviors that I would like

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Speaker 1: it to affect.

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Speaker 2: I don't get the.

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Speaker 1: Opportunity to, as we'll see in chapter six, provoke my

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Speaker 1: children to anger just to make something work right.

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Speaker 2: If I'm doing this out of reverence for.

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Speaker 1: Christ, I'm constantly responding to Him from within this situation,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to responding to the situation as if he

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Speaker 1: were absent or irrelevant. And so I think the father's

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Speaker 1: commitment to Christ is out of reverence for Christ is

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Speaker 1: paramount in this whole section. The husband, the father, the

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Speaker 1: master servant, all of these are ordered to a reverence

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Speaker 1: to Christ. And out of that reverence for Christ, then

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Speaker 1: come these other behaviors in relation to the other party.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I want to pivot specifically to how what

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Speaker 3: you're describing is in some ways a gloss on this.

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Speaker 3: Be wise, don't be foolish, Yeah, because it's worth noting

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Speaker 3: that there's not actually much content that's on display here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So what does it mean to not provoke your child? Right? Or,

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Speaker 3: as the First Nation's translation says, don't make them angry,

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Speaker 3: don't push them too hard so that they become angry. Well,

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Speaker 3: that really is an impossible generalization to make, right. We

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Speaker 3: have multiple children and they have their own personalities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could.

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Speaker 3: I know how I could make my kids angry. I

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Speaker 3: also know the degree to which I can push them,

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Speaker 3: and I know how to push them. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 3: know how to push them in a way that you know,

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Speaker 3: there's a way of pushing them that can force them

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Speaker 3: in some sense to lose their center where it's it's

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Speaker 3: now counterproductive, And there's a way to push them that

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Speaker 3: motivates them. Right, And that just comes from acquaintance, It

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Speaker 3: comes from being their parents and understanding their personalities. Right.

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Speaker 3: I gathered a long time ago that my oldest kid

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Speaker 3: has my has my for better or worse, deep competitiveness.

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Speaker 3: And if I want to motivate him, just simply trying

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Speaker 3: to persuade him is going to get me nowhere, right,

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Speaker 3: he's he's stubborn. If he's made up his mind, he's

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Speaker 3: made up his mind unless you can stoke those competitive juices.

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Speaker 3: So sometimes it's just a matter of going to the

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Speaker 3: second born and getting her involved in something, and suddenly

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Speaker 3: he's got this sense of oh, I can't let her

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Speaker 3: get ahead of me, I can't let her beat me,

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Speaker 3: And now he's after it right, right, And that's just

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Speaker 3: a matter of knowing who they are, right and what

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Speaker 3: we're being called to here doesn't have the content because

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Speaker 3: I think Paul understands, and light of the fact that

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Speaker 3: he begins the discourse with being wise, don't be foolish,

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Speaker 3: is that there's no one way to do that right.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's sometimes where we get into trouble

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Speaker 3: when we think of especially when we think about conversations

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Speaker 3: and masculinity. It's a very prescribed way of thinking, and

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Speaker 3: therefore it's a very prescribed way of motivating, and that

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Speaker 3: pushing might work for one person one child, that doesn't

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Speaker 3: work for the other. And there's where the wisdom comes in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Yeah, it's interesting. My wife and I have

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Speaker 1: so my son.

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Speaker 2: We've kind of joke it isn't exactly how this works.

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Speaker 1: But jokingly, my wife generally handles my son and I

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Speaker 1: generally handled my daughters, just the way the personalities fell, right.

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Speaker 1: She's got a better temperament to deal with my son

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Speaker 1: usually and understands how his mind works and what he's

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Speaker 1: trying to do and how he thinks better than I do.

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Speaker 1: And alternatively, I generally have a better sense of how

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Speaker 1: to handle the girls and help them along and like

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Speaker 1: give them appropriate challenges and those kind of things.

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Speaker 2: And so we've had that dichotomy.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of conversations in our household about

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Speaker 1: how to go about parenting, and we often have different

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Speaker 1: ways of doing that.

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Speaker 2: You know, Kim is just by nature.

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Speaker 1: She was an overachiever in school, maybe just a normal

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Speaker 1: achiever in school.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I was an underachiever. It's probably the better way

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Speaker 2: to say it. You know.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't afraid to try, and she really put a

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Speaker 1: lot of effort in the things, and so when she

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Speaker 1: sees the kids doing less than that effort, sometimes she's

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Speaker 1: really frustrated by it. Whereas I kind of sit back

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, listen, I learned a lot through non effort, right,

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Speaker 1: I earned valuable lessons getting c's in certain classes, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I get how this works. And so sometimes you just

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Speaker 1: have to let this play out because pushing them isn't

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Speaker 1: going to help. And so there's this one story we've

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Speaker 1: told the numerous times in our household where I had

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Speaker 1: already taken the act and my mom was adamant that

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Speaker 1: I take the SAT as well. The sit happened to

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Speaker 1: land on the day of prom or some dance I

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Speaker 1: don't remember. It was a problem that might be a

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Speaker 1: mythical thing, but anyway, it was some dance that I

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Speaker 1: was going to.

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Speaker 3: So it sounds good for the story.

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Speaker 1: It sounds good for the story. So I was like, Mom,

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Speaker 1: I don't need to tell Like I already had the

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Speaker 1: act score. It was good, no problem, Like, I don't

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Speaker 1: need to do this. This is this is ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to do this. She's like, yeah, you're

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Speaker 2: doing it. So she drove me to the place. I

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Speaker 2: went in.

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Speaker 1: I literally filled c down the whole way. I was

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Speaker 1: done it about twenty minutes and I came out. She's like, well,

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Speaker 1: how to go. I'm like, oh, I think it went

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Speaker 1: pretty bad. I mean I tanked those SAPs like nobody's business.

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Speaker 1: But it was one of those things where I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, looking back on it, I wasn't honoring her

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Speaker 1: at all, right, and what she was really trying to

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Speaker 1: get me to do, but she was also pushing me

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Speaker 1: past these points, right, and not really giving me the

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Speaker 1: leash to sort of say, Okay, you know, I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: push him this far because this is not going.

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Speaker 2: To go well.

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Speaker 1: And so I think we both learned a little lesson there,

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Speaker 1: me more in retrospect than her. But but it was

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Speaker 1: an interesting point, like I think there are these things

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Speaker 1: that you do have to learn about your kids.

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Speaker 2: How far can you push them?

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Speaker 1: Where are they going? Where is it going to make

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Speaker 1: it hard for them to really honor you? And is

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Speaker 1: there a good reason to push them beyond that point?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where it kind of gets

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Speaker 1: to do, because they are going to be angry at

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Speaker 1: you sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: That's the only pushback i'd give on that first Nation

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Speaker 1: translation is I think your kids are going to be

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Speaker 1: angry with you at some point.

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Speaker 3: That's okay, It's okay, yeah, right.

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Speaker 1: I would just say, I think what the heart of

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Speaker 1: this in what we're talking about is six' one through,

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Speaker 1: four you, know in verse, Four, fathers do not provoke

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Speaker 1: your children to, anger but bring them up in the

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Speaker 1: discipline and instruction of The. Lord WHAT i think is

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Speaker 1: going on there, is do not provoke your children to

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Speaker 1: anger such that it becomes impossible for them to honor, you,

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Speaker 1: right don't don't necessarily anger, them but bring them up

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Speaker 1: in the discipline and instruction of The. Lord that's not often.

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Speaker 1: COMFORTABLE i, mean if we've all experienced The lord's discipline and,

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Speaker 1: instruction it's not like we ache for that. Necessarily it'd

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Speaker 1: be great if you just thought we were amazing as,

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Speaker 1: Is but you, know occasionally discipline and instruction is, necessary

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Speaker 1: and it's not always. Comfortable and SO i think there's

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Speaker 1: a sense here in which we just want to make

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Speaker 1: sure we're not. Reading don't ever trigger your kids right

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Speaker 1: right opposed, two don't push them so far that they're

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Speaker 1: not going to be able to honor you, anymore to

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Speaker 1: fulfill that role of child within the.

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Speaker 3: Relationship, Yeah so What i'm hearing is there's there are

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Speaker 3: two swings of the. Pendulum on one end of the,

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Speaker 3: swing there's the kind of parenting that it's just constantly

287
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Speaker 3: writing your, child, yeah and then there's the other end

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Speaker 3: of the pendulum where one's so worried about writing their

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Speaker 3: child that they don't push them at. All, yeah and

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Speaker 3: and the kid might get upset by the push if

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Speaker 3: you're never pushing. Them and If i'm hearing you, correctly that's,

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Speaker 3: okay that's not that's not really the point. Here the

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Speaker 3: point here is there can there be a recognition maybe,

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Speaker 3: sometime maybe it's a long time down the line of,

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Speaker 3: wow you you really were seeking what was best for,

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Speaker 3: me and what's best for? Me wasn't just this idea

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Speaker 3: of and maybe this is the instructive. Point isn't just

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Speaker 3: simply this idea of WHAT i? Want but it's about

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Speaker 3: training your child specifically to be the sort of people

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Speaker 3: that can then themselves as they grow up in their

301
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Speaker 3: new relations and their new and there new ways of

302
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:49,200
Speaker 3: relating to people as an older person had the mind Of.

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Speaker 3: Christ that's. Right so you, know there was That there

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Speaker 3: was that documentary that came out a few years, Ago

305
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Speaker 3: The Last Day. Ants, yeah that ended up being initially

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00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 3: it was billed as The Last dance of The Chicago,

307
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Speaker 3: bulls but really it was The Michael jordan, documentary, Right

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00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,480
Speaker 3: and a lot of controversy came out of, that you,

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Speaker 3: know growing up the big, Bulls Michael jordan VAN i

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Speaker 3: was in my. Element BUT i also realized pretty quickly

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Speaker 3: things that were new to a lot of people weren't

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Speaker 3: so new to me as growing up in The chicago

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Speaker 3: area and having access, to you, know the stories of

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Speaker 3: what was going on behind the. Scenes.

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Speaker 2: Right but like the.

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Speaker 3: Revelation to many Was Michael jordan's kind of a, jerk

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Speaker 3: yeah you? Know AND i, thought, unabashedly so, Yeah and

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Speaker 3: that wasn't really new to, me but it was instructive

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Speaker 3: to me BECAUSE I i have to confess THAT i

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Speaker 3: empathized With Michael jordan's. PERSONALITY i was the guy on

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Speaker 3: my basketball team who rode people BECAUSE i, thought you're

322
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 3: not really putting the effort in yeah you. Know and

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Speaker 3: not everyone responded the same. WAY i remember one, teammate

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Speaker 3: especially WHEN i WAS i was the captain of the

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00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,680
Speaker 3: team my last, year and one of my teammates responded

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00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 3: really well to, that and he was a really good.

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Speaker 3: Player by the end of the, YEAR i had another

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Speaker 3: teammate who was ready to leave the, team AND i

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Speaker 3: didn't have the wisdom at seventeen eighteen to be able

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Speaker 3: to recognize maybe there's one approach for one person and

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Speaker 3: not for the, other, right, Right and that's something that

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Speaker 3: retrospectively was the training THAT i think of my. COACH

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00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 3: i had a really good coach that. Year he interestingly

334
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,160
Speaker 3: enough that the player THAT i rode that it worked

335
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,879
Speaker 3: really well on was the coach's, son and he was

336
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 3: more than happy to let me ride his. Son but

337
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,119
Speaker 3: with this other kid who just it didn't work, well

338
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 3: he would step in and he wouldn't step in a

339
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,439
Speaker 3: way to, SAY i want to take away that, fire

340
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 3: but he stepped in a way that was very, distinctively

341
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,399
Speaker 3: this guy doesn't respond to. That so let's put a

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00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 3: little bit of a gap between you and, him and

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00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 3: the way that you're doing that in a way That

344
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 3: i'm not going to put a gap between you and my,

345
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,640
Speaker 3: son because he responds well to it and he's becoming

346
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 3: a better. Player AND i think AS i started to

347
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,000
Speaker 3: learn that son wasn't responding to his father's, teaching just

348
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 3: because sometimes kids just, Don't, Yeah and so that kind

349
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,680
Speaker 3: of became a way for, him and that was really good,

350
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 3: parenting is What i'm getting out, here right on his,

351
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 3: part not just in the way that he managed, me

352
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 3: who wasn't his, son but we had a really good.

353
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Speaker 3: Relationship but actually the way in which he managed his

354
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,520
Speaker 3: own son by, saying you know, what sometimes It's i'm

355
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,399
Speaker 3: going to step back And i'm going to let captain

356
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 3: of the basketball team here ride you in a way

357
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 3: THAT i know you're going to respond to him that

358
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 3: you won't respond to. Me that was, wisdom you, Know

359
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 3: and Maybe Michael jordan had that wisdom as. WELL i

360
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,719
Speaker 3: don't know we had the. Documentary we weren't on the inside,

361
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,520
Speaker 3: circles BUT i think about that of at least the

362
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 3: way it was presented of some of those guys didn't

363
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 3: appreciate it so. Much no, right but they did. Wow

364
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 3: but they did. Win they did, win and maybe that's

365
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 3: the solve all for. That but for our purposes, here

366
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 3: it's it's a recognizing that there was a time and a,

367
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 3: place as we saw in that documentary From Michael jordan's,

368
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:35,439
Speaker 3: approach and there was a time and a place For

369
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 3: Scottie pippen's. Approach in my, case my coach sort of

370
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 3: embodied both of. Those and that's where the wisdom, is,

371
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,360
Speaker 3: Right and what you want ultimately is for your kid

372
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 3: to grow up to also have that, wisdom. RIGHT i

373
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 3: want all of my four, kids if they have, kids

374
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,639
Speaker 3: to recognize that not all their kids are not the,

375
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 3: same and all my kids have different struggles and all

376
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 3: they have different, strengths and you got to work. Accordingly

377
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,359
Speaker 3: AND i think that's kind of the motive That paul's

378
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 3: working with. Here, sorry go, Ahead.

379
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: No it's been. Interesting you, know we have three, kids

380
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 1: three biological. Children we've had our with us their whole,

381
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 1: lives and then we've had numerous foster kids over the,

382
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 1: years and then we just.

383
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 2: Adopted she was four at the, time she's now.

384
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: Five we haven't had them for their whole, lives, Right,

385
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 1: like they had a history before. Us read this book

386
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: Called The Body keeps The, score which is really an interesting.

387
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 2: Book have you read?

388
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 3: IT i, Have, yeah.

389
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: Fascinating book and what you AND i can't summarize it

390
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,959
Speaker 1: all in a couple of, sentences but part of what

391
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: you learn is that trauma sticks with, you and so

392
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: these things like you, know you get you, know we

393
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: got this little girl when she was. Three she'd had

394
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 1: a history before. Us some of that was very difficult.

395
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 1: Living no abuse, necessarily but there are these developmental stages

396
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 1: that you go through as a. Child you hear about

397
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 1: it with you, Know Eastern block orphanages where kids don't

398
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: get held and they develop attachment disorders and things like.

399
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: That and so there are all these different sort of

400
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 1: developmental stages that kids go, through and when they miss,

401
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: that they don't just automatically catch those, up like it

402
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 1: tends to stick with. Them thus the body keeps the.

403
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: Score and So i'm having to adapt the WAY i

404
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: father her to h pretty drastically from the way THAT

405
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 1: i fathered my own. Kids, right the ones who are with,

406
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: you you, know they get used to the, sarcasm they

407
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: get used to the you, know they get used to

408
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: dad being. Dad but the five year old needs something

409
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: a little. Different and, so like she came in yesterday

410
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: and was, like, HEY i cut my, hair And i'm, like,

411
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 1: well that's probably not.

412
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: Good you.

413
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: Know in my, Head i'm, like what the, heck, Right

414
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:09,959
Speaker 1: i'm just trying to get a workout. In you're out

415
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: there cutting your hair, Off like what is?

416
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: Happening and SO i.

417
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 1: Had to like think through my response to, that like

418
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: what do you do here to make it clear that

419
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: she can't cut her own? Hair and she probably shouldn't

420
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: be cutting any of her body parts, right seems like a,

421
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: corollary but without like creating a context where she doesn't

422
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,479
Speaker 1: now feel, safe like those old feelings of insecurity and

423
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: abandonment don't come back. In it's been a very i would,

424
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: say difficult parenting, challenge, right because you, know with my,

425
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: kids it's, like, Okay i'm never letting you touch scissors,

426
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: Again like this is. Crazy you're LUCKY i don't shave your, head,

427
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 1: right you, know like like those are things you can

428
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: say when they're own. Children they've been with you, forever

429
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: and it's like they have safety and security and now

430
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: just know, like, OOPS i did something, wrong and dad's

431
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 1: a little. Miffed but with a new, kid Like i'm

432
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: happy to watch a little bit more. Carefully and so

433
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: it's interesting and it does require a certain degree of

434
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: thinking through to make, sure as we see here In ephesian,

435
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: six Then i'm not provoking that child to.

436
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: Anger in other, words That i'm not.

437
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: So alienating this, child so pushing her away and making

438
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: her develop a distrust of me that will ultimately mean

439
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: that she can't really honor. Me and so how do

440
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: you bring someone up in the discipline and instruction of The. Lord,

441
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: well that's not a set. Box there's no checklist or

442
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 1: recipe for. That you're having to sort of massage this

443
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: into the personality of the, individual as opposed to treating

444
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,479
Speaker 1: all five year olds as if they're just all five year.

445
00:24:54,520 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: Olds. Right WHAT i especially learned from story is the

446
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 3: effectiveness of the threat from a parent That i'm going

447
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 3: to shave your. Head my mother growing, up her threat

448
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 3: to me was a Jamat, kotonga which is IN d,

449
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: Four i'm gonna shave your. Head it, lasts it, Works it,

450
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 3: works except THAT i went to college and THEN i

451
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 3: shaved my head and THEN i did it for the

452
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: next ten, years so that the effect of that it

453
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 3: was gone. Eventually but it worked in the moment BECAUSE

454
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 3: i thought PART i didn't realize that's what she was

455
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 3: actually saying to. Me but that's neither here nor, there, Right.

456
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,719
Speaker 1: No BUT i think at the end of the, day

457
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: What paul's trying to get at with, this and he

458
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: has a similar passage, here and just so people, know

459
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: Like colossians three conveys a very similar, thing used a

460
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: slightly different verb instead of, honor its, obey WHICH i

461
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: think there's a ton of conceptual overlap. THERE i think

462
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: we could try to make some, distinction and there probably

463
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: is some, distinction BUT i would say the semantic overlap

464
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: is such that you're really not distinguishing much between.

465
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: Honoring and obeying a.

466
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: PARENT i don't, think in other, words when you're using,

467
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: obey let me say it like. This sometimes when we use,

468
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: honor we have some sort of dispositional sense about, it

469
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: an emotional kind of background for, this where we, say,

470
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: oh it's not just, obeying it's also recognizing the authority

471
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: and appreciating the, person and that's. Honoring obeying is just,

472
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: WELL i Guess i'll do what they say because they're in.

473
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: CHARGE i don't actually think that's a good way to

474
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: distinguish these biblical. TERMS i think, obedience like when we

475
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: obey The, lord we're not just behaviorally doing it and

476
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: hoping he doesn't notice that our it's not in the right.

477
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: Place there's a bigger picture there that conceptually overlaps with

478
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: what we would normally understand is. Honor and SO i

479
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: think these are very close terms within The New. Testament

480
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: but In colossians three twenty one it says fathers do

481
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: not provoke your children unless they become. Discouraged now that

482
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: word provoke is a different word than we see In ephesian,

483
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: six BUT i think overall it's a very similar. Notion

484
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: and if we look up above that and we see

485
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: what the husbands and wives, instructions our wives submit to

486
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: your husband's as is fitting in The, lord husbands love your.

487
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: Wives we see that In ephesians. Five this is the

488
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: main thrust for hubsmans and do not be harsh with.

489
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: Them and so you, know again it's much when we

490
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: think of these as reciprocal. Relationships, right there's not a

491
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: call for wives to submit to an abusive husband something like. That,

492
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: right what's being called here is this reciprocal relationship where

493
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: submission becomes easy because the husbands are not treating their

494
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: wives in an inappropriate. Fashion AND i think we see

495
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: the same thing with fathers and. Children we see the

496
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: same thing with bond servants and. Masters, right that these

497
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: relationships are supposed to be, reciprocal and so we know

498
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: that children are to obey our you, know or to obey.

499
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: Us that doesn't make it mean that we make it

500
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: hard for them to do, so, Right it means that

501
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: we make it easy for them to. Do so we

502
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: recognize that this is their, role and our role is

503
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: to facilitate that obedience by being honorable ourselves worthy of.

504
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: It AND i think that's what is at sort of

505
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: the heart of these passages is that fathers are to

506
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: be worthy of, honor and thus the children now honoring

507
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: the honor they are supposed to give comes.

508
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: Easy doesn't mean we're.

509
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: Going to be, perfect but it does mean that we

510
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: have to exhibit that character such that it's easy to honor.

511
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: Us. Right, so to your, point If vision six speaks

512
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: of children honoring your, Parents colautions three very parallel in

513
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: the way that the passages are set up and what

514
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: they're doing children obey your, parents there does seem to

515
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 3: be the interchangeability as to what this honoring looks. Like

516
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: BUT i think to your, point the reciprocal nature of these,

517
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: things it's not there's one kind of reciprocity for. Friends,

518
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 3: yes you're on a similar status level social. Level we

519
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 3: don't go around saying obey your, friends but we do

520
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 3: have a notion of you treat your friends the way

521
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 3: that you'd like to be. Treated, right if you have

522
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 3: a child who has troubles, sharing but it is more

523
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: than eager to expect to be shared With you address that,

524
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 3: right because there's some sort of reciprocity. There but the

525
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 3: key dynamic there is that there's there's kind of a

526
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: mutual recognition for that plane of social parallel right where

527
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: they're on the same, place pane of. Respectability that doesn't

528
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 3: change when we're talking about the different status in some

529
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 3: sense of a parent with a, child a father with a.

530
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: Child what changes is what that might look. Like but

531
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: maybe a way of saying what you're saying is if

532
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 3: children are to honor their, parents the, parents and in

533
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: our case we're talking about the, father especially in this,

534
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 3: podcast the father is to be, honorable right to conduct

535
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 3: himself in a way in which he's worthy of honor.

536
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: Or As i'll steal from one of my friends who

537
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 3: in our in Our indian, culture it's a very important

538
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: tenant to teach your kids to respect your. Elders it's

539
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 3: not as so well taught that a parent should be.

540
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: Respectable so he does a good job of reminding us

541
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 3: fathers be. Respectable, yeah, right, That AND i think that's

542
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 3: kind of the thrust of what is getting at here

543
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 3: of it doesn't mean sometimes as you've pointed, out we're

544
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: not going to make a child. Mad sometimes you got

545
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 3: to make you. Know i've had moments with my children

546
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: Where i've, SAID i get that you're mad at, me

547
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 3: And i'm not sorry about. THAT i accept that you're

548
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: mad at. Me but what you need to come to

549
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: grips with here is THAT i need it's my it's

550
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 3: my parental, duty my fatherly duty to make sure you

551
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 3: know that you KNOW x is not. Okay, yeah or

552
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 3: it's my job for you to understand that you can't

553
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: grow up thinking this is the way in which we're

554
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 3: going to treat. Others so WHEN i think about the

555
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: child that maybe this is close to, home maybe it's

556
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: not who is who expects others to share but won't

557
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: so readily. SHARE i want my child to see the

558
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 3: dis equilibrium within that. RIGHT i want her to grow

559
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 3: up to be able to understand that these patterns don't solve.

560
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: Themselves and that's part of this dynamic of the role

561
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 3: of the parent is to, say you, know as you grow,

562
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: older you're going to live in a lot of, disequilibrium,

563
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 3: disequality lack of equity. Situations even if you can't affect

564
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 3: that on a broader. Level what we're being asked to

565
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 3: do here is to is to live in that kind

566
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: of a. Way so it's a training. Ground and you

567
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 3: might be upset with me for addressing. This you might

568
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 3: be upset with the lengths That i've gone to to

569
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 3: to show you that this isn't. It and maybe sometimes

570
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: it's just simply because you don't share so well and

571
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,239
Speaker 3: because you expect others to. Share and this, Moment i'm

572
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: stepping in And i'm not letting that person share with.

573
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: You, yeah or you.

574
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: Might want that, thing And i'm going to say you're

575
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: not getting, it AND i want you to know why

576
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: because you need to understand that reciprocity is, important, right

577
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: or whatever the situation might. Be that's very. Different Then

578
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: i'm coming to you And i'm just going to have

579
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 3: some completely nonsensical sort of discipline to get to you

580
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 3: that doesn't connect in your, Mind like that's the lack of, respectability, Right.

581
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: Like i'm Gonna i'm going to take away what you

582
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't share and you're never going to get it.

583
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: Again, Right it's not exactly.

584
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 3: That that's a very different thing then in this, Moment,

585
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: yeah we're not going to do, This, yeah AND.

586
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: I, think you, know if we look at the Way

587
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: god works with people in, scripture we see this in

588
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: a number of different.

589
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: Ways you.

590
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: Know, obviously when we think about the discipline and the

591
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: structure instruction.

592
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: Of The, lord one of the one of the.

593
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: Paradigms THAT i would go to is like The israelites

594
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: in the, desert, Right and we usually think of that

595
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: as a highly negative. Experience paul uses it as a

596
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: highly negative.

597
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: Experience.

598
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: Right these things were written so, that you, know for,

599
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: us so that we wouldn't make these same, mistakes and

600
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: it didn't turn out so well for The israelites in the.

601
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: Desert it's, like, okay fair, Enough that's that's one way

602
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: of thinking about. It BUT i would put on the

603
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: opposite end of, THAT i would Put. Abraham if you

604
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: look at the life Of, Abraham abraham consistently MAKE i,

605
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: mean he goes down To egypt twice and lies About

606
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: sarah being his sister instead of his. Wife neither of

607
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: those times are we ever Showing god Disciplining. Abram he's

608
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: brought back up with great, wealth like he's you, know

609
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: he sort of plunders The egyptians on the way back,

610
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: up you, know he has this affair With hagar and Has. Ishmael,

611
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: Well god doesn't Punish ishmael or you, know make that generation.

612
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: Anathema he Blesses.

613
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: Ishmael and all the, WHILE i think what he's trying

614
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: to Teach abram, is, no, look this is how you

615
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: live with. Me this is what it looks like to

616
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: have this relationship with, me and this is the way

617
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: your response needs to change as you're living before. Me

618
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: and that comes to a sort of a climax with

619
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: the near sacrifice Of, isaac Where abram is going to

620
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: Give isaac back To god in this act of, sacrifice

621
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: and it demonstrates That abraham is now one who fears The.

622
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: Lord this is what the angel who comes down, says you,

623
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: know After abraham's. Test BUT i think throughout that Whole abraham,

624
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: cycle you don't See god quote unquote Disciplining. Abraham you

625
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: see the patience of The. Lord he's not addressing every

626
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: little thing That abraham does. Wrong he's Allowing abraham to

627
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: understand what it looks like to live before him through

628
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: this progressive. Revelation and he's not just every Time abraham screws,

629
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: up like on top of him like that was the

630
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: wrong way to do, This and SO i think part

631
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: of WHAT i see in that is there's room for.

632
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: Both there's room for the in the, moment we've got

633
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: to address this and it's time now to address, it

634
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: and there's also room for in this moment we're seeing a,

635
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: mistake but we need to let this play out a

636
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: little longer and let this person come to this.

637
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 2: Themselves AND i think.

638
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: There's both a given a, take and again they're in

639
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: lies the wisdom that we have to. Develop right when

640
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: do you do the one rather than the?

641
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 3: Other?

642
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: Right when do you restrain.

643
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: From offering this instruction and this discipline and allow this

644
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: to play out a little? Further when do you step

645
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: in and say, no, no, no, no we're not doing

646
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: that right?

647
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: Now and that appears.

648
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: In my, Estimation it's appeared differently in different, ages especially

649
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: if my kids are getting a little. Older my son's,

650
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: twenty my daughters are. SEVENTEEN i find myself doing a

651
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: whole lot more Of i'm going to have to let

652
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: this one play. Out Like i'm going to let this

653
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: one play. OUT i do a lot. Less, hey we

654
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: need to address this like right, now, Right it's like

655
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: there's going to be consequences for this that are going

656
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: to be painful for. Them at some, point it's going

657
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: to be painful enough for them that they're going to

658
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: start to get, it and my role almost is to

659
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: let those consequences.

660
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: Come.

661
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: Now it's sort of, like you, know WE i think

662
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 1: we've mentioned this, before, like you, know you put your

663
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: hand on a hot. Stove you're not going to let

664
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 1: your kid just sit there with his hand on the

665
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: hot stove and let it you, know fifth degree burn or.

666
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: Whatever you probably wouldn't even want.

667
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: Them to touch the hot, stove, Right and so there's

668
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 1: there's a sense in Which i'm not Gonna i'm sort

669
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: of standing back saying how far CAN i let this?

670
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: Go is there any danger?

671
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: Here is there really a consequence for me at taking

672
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: this approach that's going to be very detrimental for my

673
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: Kids versus that moment Where i'm, like, no this will

674
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: be a really good life lesson And i'll be there

675
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: to help them process it as they go through. It

676
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: it's not comfortable at, all but you kind of have

677
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: to assess based on this, first like at what point

678
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: do they not need another lecture from, dad like a

679
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: pre lesson about what could happen in this, scenario, right?

680
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: Right and at what point is that going to be

681
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: provoking to the point where it's like that just wants

682
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: to control where we go and what we do and

683
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: how this. Works and you, Know i'm just finding it

684
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: a little more frequent with my older kids THAT i

685
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: have to do it the other.

686
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 3: Way, so, yeah that makes. Sense and What i'm hearing

687
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 3: in this as a parallel with the way the way

688
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 3: That god was Treating. Abraham of, Course god is the

689
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 3: one that we see above all as. Wise, yeah there's

690
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 3: there's such there's such a close and intimate understanding of

691
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: your children and even more so That god has of

692
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 3: his children. Us, yeah to be able to recognize how

693
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 3: do you work in this particular? Environment, Right, yeah you

694
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 3: mentioned the stove top. ONE i immediately think of my

695
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 3: daughter who's now, ten who when she was probably around,

696
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 3: two just had this. Fascination and to a, degree it's

697
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 3: when you're, two you're looking at an angle where you

698
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 3: see the flame on that stove in a way that

699
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 3: when you're my age and my, height you're not you

700
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 3: just don't see. It and that drew her in and

701
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 3: she wanted to touch, it AND i get in her,

702
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 3: way try to convince her not to, yea and one,

703
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 3: day When i'm turned, around she did it, anyway and

704
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: she learned really. Fast there was no holding her, hand,

705
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 3: there there was, touch gone, cry she. Done she's never

706
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: had problems like that again right. Now of COURSE i

707
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: didn't want her to touch the, stove but she learned that,

708
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 3: way and it was instructive to me as a parent

709
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 3: to watch her and, Say, okay sometimes this child of

710
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 3: mine needs to learn that. Way i've never had that

711
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 3: problem with my oldest son because my oldest son has

712
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: a greater propensity to. Fear and IF i would have

713
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 3: said something to him at that age WHEN i, did

714
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 3: i'd say something to, me that is Big. Awi and of

715
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: COURSE i don't talk to him like that, now but

716
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 3: that's all he needed to. Hear it's like he made

717
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 3: this calculation in his head of BIG. aUI i don't

718
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 3: like BIG. aUI i've experienced Big. Awi we'll stay away

719
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: from anything attached to Big. Ali, Right and my second

720
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 3: child had to learn the hard. Way my third child

721
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 3: in some ways was like my second child on. Steroids.

722
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 3: Right my third child broke her, arm despite warnings over

723
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: and over again not do, something and that lasted about

724
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 3: six months and then she started doing, again Like, okay

725
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: that was a short lived lesson the grand scheme of,

726
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: things you, know but that's part of the, process right

727
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 3: of understanding who your kid is and recognizing so that

728
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 3: there's the wisdom of. Understanding there's also the wisdom of the,

729
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 3: goal Which i'm also hearing from you that we've meant

730
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 3: that the goal ultimately is there's a commission to raise

731
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 3: them to be certain kinds of. People we've all met

732
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 3: those peers of ours who are, petulant they can't take

733
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 3: no for an. Answer they seem to have impulse. Control

734
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 3: and you don't want to project too far into the

735
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 3: past and assume what parenting that child might have, been

736
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 3: but you get a certain idea of they never actually

737
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 3: had to learn that lesson of impulse. Control that's, right

738
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 3: and now it manifests in things LIKE i want to,

739
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 3: HAVE i got to, HAVE i will, have you, Know,

740
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 3: yeah and that's what you want to you, know and

741
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 3: to increasing. Degrees i'd imagine right with your with your

742
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: girls at, seventeen with your, son especially at, twenty that's

743
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 3: maybeing an easier lesson to point to the future than

744
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 3: it is for my twelve year old who doesn't quite

745
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 3: have the idea of what a credit card might be

746
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 3: and how it could be so easy to overspend on

747
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 3: a credit card with impulse control, problems, right or balancing a,

748
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 3: Budget and so that's part of it as, well, right

749
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 3: recognizing frame of, life entering into new forms of maturity

750
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 3: brain development that aren't, rules but it's general understandings that

751
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 3: the tactic, changes and that's part of being. RESPECTABLE i, think.

752
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: Yeah they're they're they're approaching new challenges and so you

753
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 1: sort of have, to at Least i've found you sort

754
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: of adapt to the challenges.

755
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 2: That are before.

756
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: You and you, KNOW i would say the last Thing

757
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: i'd just throw out there is maybe this is a

758
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: topic for the next episode because we could get into.

759
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: It but we found that it wasn't only us that

760
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: we had to worry about exasperating our. Children my son

761
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: had a real hard life in high, school, right just

762
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: the administrative grind of high, school all the required, classes the,

763
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: repetition like it just wasn't built for. Him right, now

764
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: he's a he's going to college In Saint, Louis Saint Louis.

765
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: University he's a double major in history and, theology and

766
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 1: he's doing. Great you would never tell that from his

767
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: high school. Grades and like high school was just like

768
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: this hated thing that he used to, Do like he

769
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: hated it just drove him, crazy and you could see

770
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: him becoming more and more.

771
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: Exasperated right.

772
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: Now we didn't have a we didn't have an outlift for,

773
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: him Right, like we couldn't take him out of that,

774
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 1: situation so we had to sort of help him through.

775
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: It with our, daughters we saw the same, thing like

776
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: they were just becoming frustrated and, exasperated and so we

777
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: did have an outlet for.

778
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: Them they're going to junior college to finish up their high.

779
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: School they like that a lot.

780
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: Better it's a little more, freedom they can be a

781
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: little more. Autonomous they're still getting all their coursework. In

782
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 1: BUT i think there's something, too sort of the structures

783
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: that we live in that are AND i THINK i

784
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: do mean it like this co parenting our kids right

785
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: it would drive me. Crazy And i'd hear teachers talk, about,

786
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: well we want teacher kids, responsibility and it's, like my

787
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: kids are already. Responsible so maybe you, know AND i

788
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: don't think that was me being a Helicopter. Dad it

789
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: was just one of those things where it's, LIKE i

790
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: don't think that you know them seeing you turn their

791
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: papers around in a three month, period whereas you're demanding

792
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: that they get it, in you, know printed it in

793
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: on time so that you can take three months to grade,

794
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: Them i'm not exactly sure they're learning responsibility from, that.

795
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: Right SO i think a lot of it was.

796
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: That's not to disparage high, schools not to disparage. Teachers

797
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: it's just to sit back and Go sometimes kids don't

798
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: fit in the places you have, them and there has

799
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: to be some cognizance of that as, well because there's

800
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: only so much we can do as. Parents it's really

801
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: rough to get my son out of high. School he

802
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: had a lot of. Trouble my, daughters we were really

803
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: happy to have the release valve BECAUSE i think they'd

804
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 1: be struggling the same way.

805
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: Too just didn't work for.

806
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: Them, SO i, MEAN i think that's a whole other

807
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: aspect of this is that we're.

808
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 2: We're not their primary.

809
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: Influencers there's a lot of ways that kids can be,

810
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: frustrated and so we have to be cognizant that they

811
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 1: are entering into social worlds and developing their own lives

812
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: in ways that in part we need to help them cope,

813
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: with but also in part that we may need to

814
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: help them step out.

815
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 2: Of just throw that out.

816
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 1: Of sort of another thought on parenting, HERE i guess, yeah.

817
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 3: And in some WAYS i think you're ahead of that

818
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 3: curve on. ME i haven't quite had to deal with those. Dynamics,

819
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 3: yeah my kid's been, Younger but that makes a lot of.

820
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 3: Sense and that speaks again to the sort of. Grittiness

821
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 3: right in gardener's, terms it's that the sticking your hands

822
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 3: and the. Dirt if you're not willing to get your

823
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 3: hands in the, dirt perhaps because you're too afraid of

824
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 3: having to wash your hands, afterwards you're not going to

825
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 3: be a good. Gardener. Right if you're not able to

826
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 3: get into the situations and understand the distinctiveness of your,

827
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 3: KIDS i think you're going to get into the places

828
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: That paul's saying to beware, of, right the exasperating of your,

829
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 3: children the provoking them in ways that maybe maybe isn't even, Intentional,

830
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 3: RIGHT i think THAT i think we maybe think of

831
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: it too often as, Intentional and what we need to

832
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: do is think of it more broadly through the lenses

833
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 3: that he's giving, us which is everything is framed around, wisdom,

834
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 3: right and and is referring back To, jesus the wise. One.

835
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 3: Right and if that's the, case it's it's it's a

836
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 3: necessity of understanding that there's not a one stop. Shop

837
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 3: AND i think that's really telling to the fact That

838
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 3: paul gives very little specifics in these. Passages, yeah and

839
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 3: when we tend to think of fatherhood as bequeathed to,

840
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 3: us as this masculine, structure it's it's far too. Specific,

841
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: yeah and we end up with exasperated. Children we end

842
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 3: up with children who become, reactive, RIGHT i don't want

843
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 3: to be. That and of course every child is going

844
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: to eventually SAY i disagree with my parents on this

845
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 3: or that and want to do something. Different we're doing

846
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 3: the same, thing but there is a difference between making

847
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 3: changes and not agreeing and a whole skill rejecting because

848
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 3: what we've seen is a lack of. Wisdom so, it's you,

849
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 3: know maybe the end of the, day the sum is

850
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 3: that it's a call to wisdom as parents to recognize

851
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 3: who your kids, are recognize where they, are and know

852
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 3: that what might be good may not be good for the.

853
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: Other what might be good for your neighbor's kids may

854
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 3: not be good for your, kids and vice.

855
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: VERSA i, think why don't we dig into that next.

856
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: Time we're about out of time on, this so why

857
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: don't we dig back into that next time and talk

858
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: a little bit more, about you, know those aspects of.

859
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,439
Speaker 1: FATHERHOOD i think there's other things we can talk through

860
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: that would sort of dispel the myth that there's some

861
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 1: sort of recipe for raising, kids and we can dive

862
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: a little bit more into that next. Time so thanks

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00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: for this. Conversation, man this is helpful and. Fun it's

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00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: always fun talking about the. Kids as much AS i

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00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: bemoon having, them they KNOW i love, them so it's

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00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: fun to talk about them and enjoyed. This so thanks

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00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: for being, Here thanks everybody for, listening and we'll catch

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00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 1: you on the next episode Of Thinking Christian Take. CARE

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00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: i just want to take a second to thank the

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00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: team At Life audio for their partnership with us on

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00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: The Thinking christian. Podcast if you go to lifeaudio dot,

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00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: com you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their.

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00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: Network they've got shows about, Prayer bible, study, parenting and

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00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: more