1
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640
Speaker 1: Life Audio.

2
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,400
Speaker 2: Is Mormonism Christian? Is it part of the historic Christian

3
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,160
Speaker 2: movement or does it proclaim a different view about Jesus' scripture,

4
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,600
Speaker 2: salvation and more.

5
00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,880
Speaker 1: For some reason, they just feel like they have to

6
00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,799
Speaker 1: have our blessing on their claim to Christianity. This saying.

7
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,480
Speaker 1: You know what, Eric, I don't stay up nights wondering

8
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,560
Speaker 1: whether or not LDS people think I'm a Christian. But

9
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,920
Speaker 1: why is it that it seems to bother them whenever

10
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,360
Speaker 1: we challenge their claim to Christianity. I would hope if

11
00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,440
Speaker 1: the Latter Days saying really believes it doesn't honor God

12
00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 1: to believe something that's not true, that they would see

13
00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,199
Speaker 1: if you don't think it honors God, I would think

14
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,440
Speaker 1: the next step is you need to do something like

15
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,879
Speaker 1: get out of the Mormon Church. You're going to have

16
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,920
Speaker 1: to repent and ask God to forgive you for believing

17
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,800
Speaker 1: a lot of the errors that Joseph Smith and all

18
00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,800
Speaker 1: those that came after him have been teaching their people.

19
00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 2: Here to talk about these questions and more. Is one

20
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 2: of the leading experts today on the Church of Jesus

21
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,480
Speaker 2: Christ of Latter day Saints, the founder of the Mormonism

22
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,640
Speaker 2: Research ministry and a personal friend, Bill McKeever. Bill, thanks

23
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 2: for coming on.

24
00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,600
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for having me Sean. I hope we have

25
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 1: a good time doing this today.

26
00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:15,800
Speaker 2: Oh, I know for sure we will.

27
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:16,399
Speaker 1: Well.

28
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 2: I was spurred on this because I responded to an

29
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 2: Instagram post in which some families were arguing that Mormonism

30
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 2: is essentially Christian, and it got a ton of engagement,

31
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,559
Speaker 2: and I thought, you know what, there are more people

32
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 2: talking about this right now. I'll want to weigh into

33
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 2: it again. But before we compare and contrast Mormon teachings

34
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 2: with a historic Christian faith, why do you care so

35
00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,720
Speaker 2: much about this question? I imagine some people write off

36
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,280
Speaker 2: if they're still staying with us, are wondering why we're

37
00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,000
Speaker 2: unnecessarily picking on members of the Church of Jesus Christ

38
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 2: of Latter day Saints.

39
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a fair question. I can't speak for everybody

40
00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,680
Speaker 1: and why they study the teachings and history of the

41
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 1: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, but I

42
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 1: can tell you very clearly when it comes to myself.

43
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,519
Speaker 1: I grew up with Latter day Saints in southern California,

44
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,480
Speaker 1: and they were great friends of mine. I can only

45
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,560
Speaker 1: think of good memories with my LDS friends. They never

46
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 1: tried to convert me, however, until after I became a Christian,

47
00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,919
Speaker 1: and I was not a Christian during my high school years.

48
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,920
Speaker 1: I became a Christian afterwards, and when I started talking

49
00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,040
Speaker 1: to some of my LDS acquaintances at that time, then

50
00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 1: of course they're trying to convert me to their faith.

51
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,080
Speaker 1: And as we talked, it became readily apparent that a

52
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,359
Speaker 1: lot of the things that they were claiming to believe

53
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,240
Speaker 1: were not what I was either reading in the Bible

54
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,720
Speaker 1: or hearing at my church, or hearing from other Christians,

55
00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,880
Speaker 1: or what I was hearing on Christian radio. It was

56
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,920
Speaker 1: very different. And as I talked to my friends about

57
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 1: these things, naturally they're my friends, and I'm hearing some

58
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: of the things that they're saying, and I'm becoming concerned.

59
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,880
Speaker 1: So I started reading their own material. Most of my

60
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:15,519
Speaker 1: study of Mormonism came from primary sources. I had one

61
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 1: little book that was written by a man who was

62
00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,840
Speaker 1: a Christian missionary on the Navajo Reservation. His name was

63
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,200
Speaker 1: Gordon Frasier. I had the pleasure of meeting doctor Fraser

64
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,360
Speaker 1: before he passed away many years ago. But I had

65
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,839
Speaker 1: his book, and I bought it mainly for his bibliography,

66
00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,000
Speaker 1: and so I started looking up a lot of the

67
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,920
Speaker 1: books that he was citing, and I found those books,

68
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,120
Speaker 1: purchased many of them, or found them by other means.

69
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,280
Speaker 1: But I was wanting to read what do their books

70
00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 1: have to say, Not necessarily what outsiders say about them,

71
00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,840
Speaker 1: but what do their leaders say about themselves. So my

72
00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,480
Speaker 1: study really goes to the primary sa and I've kind

73
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,280
Speaker 1: of stuck with that philosophy for about fifty years now

74
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,880
Speaker 1: that I've been studying Mormonism. I like to go to

75
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,760
Speaker 1: the primary sources and the reason why. In many of

76
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,280
Speaker 1: those primary sources, Latter day Saints are supposed to respect them.

77
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,640
Speaker 1: For instance, when you quote the standard works, you know,

78
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,920
Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the Doctor, and Covenant,

79
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 1: el Great Price, that's a source that Latter day Saints

80
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,200
Speaker 1: are supposed to respect and believe. And the same is

81
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,440
Speaker 1: true when it comes to for instance, conference messages and

82
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,039
Speaker 1: church manuals, their own curriculum that is printed by the

83
00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,960
Speaker 1: Church and comes under the authority of the first Presidency.

84
00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,239
Speaker 1: These are sources that Latter day Saints are supposed to respect. Now,

85
00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,040
Speaker 1: having done this for as long as I have. Naturally,

86
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,840
Speaker 1: I've learned from experience that there are a lot of

87
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,240
Speaker 1: Latter day Saints that don't tend to believe what their

88
00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,559
Speaker 1: church is do telling them to believe. There's a lot

89
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,839
Speaker 1: of independent thought among many Latter day Saints today. I'll

90
00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 1: tell you, Sean, it wasn't so much like that when

91
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,160
Speaker 1: I started studying this in the nineteen seventies. And what

92
00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,640
Speaker 1: I mean by that is when I was talking, let's say,

93
00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,039
Speaker 1: to LDS missionaries, and they would say something, and I

94
00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,880
Speaker 1: would counter with something that I had read from their

95
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,120
Speaker 1: own sources and maybe quoted an LDS apostle or one

96
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 1: of their past presidents. It wasn't uncommon if the missionary

97
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,840
Speaker 1: was given me an answer that seemed to contradict what

98
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,640
Speaker 1: that leader said, for the missionary to go, oh, well,

99
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,720
Speaker 1: if that's what he says, then that's what we believe. Nowadays,

100
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 1: I'm finding when you bring up some of these sources,

101
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,719
Speaker 1: the Latter day Saint will kind of shrug their shoulders

102
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,480
Speaker 1: and act like, well, that's not all that important, because

103
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,840
Speaker 1: they do teach that they all have personal revelation. However,

104
00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:04,520
Speaker 1: personal revelation is never supposed to undermine the revelatory statements

105
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 1: of their superiors in the church. In other words, a

106
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,719
Speaker 1: Mormon missionary would have let's say, the Melchizedic priesthood. Now

107
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,919
Speaker 1: there's tens of thousands of Melchizedic priests in the LDS Church.

108
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,799
Speaker 1: It's not all that important role. You might say, however,

109
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,440
Speaker 1: if you're a bishop in the Mormon Church, you don't

110
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,360
Speaker 1: have authority over let's say a seventy in the Mormon

111
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,479
Speaker 1: Church or the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter

112
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,680
Speaker 1: day Saints, you don't have authority over an apostle in

113
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,039
Speaker 1: the church. A seventy doesn't have authority over an apostle

114
00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 1: in the church. An apostle does not have authority over

115
00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,400
Speaker 1: even a member of the first presidency. And there are

116
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,080
Speaker 1: three men, including the prophet, seer, and revelator the president

117
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,479
Speaker 1: of the church that formed that group. There. But yet

118
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,640
Speaker 1: I am hearing more and more of I'm not trying

119
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,919
Speaker 1: to be just respectable, but low level Latter day Saints

120
00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 1: lay level, let's say it that way, that feel that

121
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:11,000
Speaker 1: somehow their personal revelation tends to override what has been

122
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,520
Speaker 1: taught by the Church. I like to stick with what

123
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:19,000
Speaker 1: the Church has said, and I was even commended by

124
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 1: a blogger a while back who watched a video of

125
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 1: me and I made that comment, and she actually agreed

126
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 1: with me. And she was even frustrated by some of

127
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,960
Speaker 1: her own fellow members who seem to think that whatever

128
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,560
Speaker 1: they feel personally is what true Mormonism is, even if

129
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,240
Speaker 1: it conflicts with what leaders have said. I think I'm

130
00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,200
Speaker 1: in the right on this one, and I find that

131
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 1: by quoting them and quoting their manuals. If they don't

132
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 1: believe that, I really look at it this way, that's

133
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,920
Speaker 1: their problem, not mine. You know. I think I'm going

134
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: to the source and what they're supposed to believe.

135
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,600
Speaker 2: That's totally fair. You know, I teach in our talbot

136
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 2: Apologized program. I'm telling our students all the time, go

137
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 2: to original sources. If you're studying the possibility miracles, read

138
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 2: Hume yourself, not a Christian critiquing it. So I've always

139
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,240
Speaker 2: respected that about you and Eric Johnson and the others

140
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,680
Speaker 2: that work with you at the Mormonism Research Ministry. We're

141
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,880
Speaker 2: going to get into some of the really similarities and

142
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,960
Speaker 2: differences on the big questions of Jesus, the virgin birth,

143
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 2: grace and works, but maybe just remind us of some

144
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,360
Speaker 2: of the historic background of the emergence of the LDS

145
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 2: Church in the eighteen hundreds. What's the origin of story

146
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,480
Speaker 2: and how does it informed whether we should consider them

147
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:37,440
Speaker 2: Christian or not.

148
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:43,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, the origin story is very important because the First Vision,

149
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,720
Speaker 1: as it's called, has been described by the Church and

150
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,560
Speaker 1: by Joseph Smith himself. This is found in his history,

151
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 1: which is a part of the Pearl of Great Price,

152
00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,920
Speaker 1: which is Mormon scripture. Joseph Smith claims in the official version,

153
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,040
Speaker 1: and again when you're talking about the first Vision or visions,

154
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,120
Speaker 1: he gives different accounts. So I want to make it

155
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 1: very clear that I'm referring to the eighteen thirty eight account, which,

156
00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 1: by the way, no one really knew of the eighteen

157
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 1: thirty eight account even until the early eighteen forties. The

158
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,560
Speaker 1: First Vision was not something that Joseph Smith was talking about.

159
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,120
Speaker 1: This can be demonstrated in a number of ways. One,

160
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,880
Speaker 1: we don't have any sermons by Joseph Smith talking about

161
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,560
Speaker 1: this first vision, and we have nobody writing about it

162
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,800
Speaker 1: in their journals in the early years. We don't have

163
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 1: any critics of Mormonism in the early years mentioning the

164
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,920
Speaker 1: First Vision, and you would think if that was a

165
00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,520
Speaker 1: part of the Mormon narrative, there would be critics going

166
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,560
Speaker 1: after that. And why is that? Well, because Joseph Smith

167
00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 1: claims in his eighteen thirty eight account that there was

168
00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,679
Speaker 1: a religious excitement in the area where he was living

169
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,240
Speaker 1: at the time, which is in the Palmyra Manchester area

170
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,559
Speaker 1: of New York, Upstate New York, near Rochester, New York.

171
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,679
Speaker 1: He claims that this revival or religious excitement involved the Baptist, Methodist,

172
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,320
Speaker 1: and Presbyterian churches. He claims that many multitudes were added

173
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,240
Speaker 1: to the churches, and he also gives us a lot

174
00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:25,080
Speaker 1: of other details where we can pinpoint precisely the revival

175
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,800
Speaker 1: or religious excitement he was talking about. Now, he claims

176
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,959
Speaker 1: that this took place in the spring of eighteen twenty,

177
00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,280
Speaker 1: eighteen twenty. The church is not going to be founded

178
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,200
Speaker 1: until April of eighteen thirty, so according to this we

179
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,840
Speaker 1: have about a ten year gap. Well, as I said,

180
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 1: the revival that he describes, he gives us so many

181
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,240
Speaker 1: details that we know exactly which one it is. The

182
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 1: problem is that revival that he is describing in his

183
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 1: testimony there did not happen until the fall of eighteen

184
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:08,560
Speaker 1: twenty four and into spring of eighteen twenty five. Now

185
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,560
Speaker 1: some might say, well, that's not a big deal. I

186
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,840
Speaker 1: get my dates wrong all the time. Well, this is

187
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,480
Speaker 1: a big deal because if Joseph Smith did not go

188
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,400
Speaker 1: out into the woods until this revival took place, and

189
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,320
Speaker 1: because of what happens in this revival the way it ends,

190
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,719
Speaker 1: because he describes it coming to an end, because there

191
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,840
Speaker 1: seemed to be some contention as to where the new

192
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:37,000
Speaker 1: converts were going to attend church regularly, and because of

193
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,360
Speaker 1: this bickering, and he talks about this, it came to

194
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,480
Speaker 1: an end, and this left Joseph Smith confused as to

195
00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 1: which church he should join. Now, right there we see

196
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,880
Speaker 1: that Smith has an understanding of the church that is

197
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,079
Speaker 1: certainly not one that we would see in the New Testament,

198
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,920
Speaker 1: because we have always believed as Christians that the church

199
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 1: is primarily it's forgiven people. That's what composes the church.

200
00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,680
Speaker 1: But he's looking at it as an organization, and it's

201
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,160
Speaker 1: not unusual to do that. In fact, we use the

202
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,840
Speaker 1: word church differently in our vernacular. But I think when

203
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,080
Speaker 1: we look at the New Testament, we see that the

204
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 1: church is like a living organism of forgiven people. That

205
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,400
Speaker 1: have put their faith in Jesus Christ. So he's confused

206
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 1: as to which church or organization he should join, and

207
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 1: that's what compels him to go out into the woods

208
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 1: to pray. He gets this idea of going out to

209
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,320
Speaker 1: the woods from James one five. If any of you

210
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,120
Speaker 1: lack wid let him ask of God. Now there's something

211
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,280
Speaker 1: interesting about this, because if you read other accounts, there's

212
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:50,440
Speaker 1: a statement that seems to imply that Joseph Smith was

213
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:55,839
Speaker 1: given James one five, perhaps through a minister. A Methodist

214
00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 1: minister by the name of George Lane, refers to James

215
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,640
Speaker 1: one five when encouraging people how they should join a

216
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 1: church to pray and ask God. Interesting George Lane was

217
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:18,319
Speaker 1: a part of this revival that Joseph Smith describes, but

218
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,959
Speaker 1: he was not in the area of Palmyra in the

219
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 1: spring of eighteen twenty. Either was Benjamin Stockton, who was

220
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,840
Speaker 1: the Presbyterian minister involved in this revival. He was not

221
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,400
Speaker 1: in the Palmyra area in the spring of eighteen twenty,

222
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 1: So the evidence seems to move towards eighteen twenty four

223
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,560
Speaker 1: into eighteen twenty five. Smith takes James one five. He

224
00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,800
Speaker 1: goes out into the nearby woods. He starts to pray,

225
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,880
Speaker 1: and he claims after basically feeling this dark spirit come

226
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,000
Speaker 1: over him where he feels like he's about to die. Eventually,

227
00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 1: this this whatever manifestation was, it leaves him and he

228
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,679
Speaker 1: sees above him, standing in the air are two personages.

229
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,720
Speaker 1: One says to the other, this is my beloved son.

230
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 1: Hear him. Well, you can only figure out who this

231
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,160
Speaker 1: has to be. It's the father and the son. In

232
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,520
Speaker 1: this conversation, he is told by the personages that all

233
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,840
Speaker 1: the churches are wrong, and that Joseph Smith is not

234
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,680
Speaker 1: to join any of the churches. Their creeds are an

235
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 1: abomination and their professors are corrupt. Well, in this account,

236
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,120
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith claims it never occurred to him that all

237
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 1: the churches were wrong. But yet in eighteen thirty two,

238
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,640
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith writes in his personal diary that he was

239
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,960
Speaker 1: concerned about whether or not his sins were forgiven, and

240
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,160
Speaker 1: he goes out into the woods with that being the motive,

241
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,280
Speaker 1: and when he prays about forgiveness of his sins, he

242
00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 1: sees one personage who describes himself as the law and

243
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 1: who was crucified. So at that time, he says in

244
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,920
Speaker 1: his diary he already knew all the churches were wrong.

245
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically what he says. But we

246
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,960
Speaker 1: don't hear any mention of God the Father in this

247
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,200
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty two account. Now, Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth

248
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 1: President of the church, must have seen this as a problem.

249
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 1: Because when Joseph Fielding Smith, who for fifty years was

250
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,400
Speaker 1: the church historian, later to become the tenth president, when

251
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 1: he comes across this diary account, he actually takes it

252
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,720
Speaker 1: out of the diary and puts it in a safe

253
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 1: where it remains for a time until eventually the word

254
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 1: gets round and that eventually gets pulled out and becomes

255
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 1: public knowledge. Why would Joseph Fielding Smith put that eighteen

256
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: thirty two account in a safe where no one can

257
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 1: see it because he saw it as a conflict. And

258
00:15:59,120 --> 00:15:59,880
Speaker 1: I believe it.

259
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:00,960
Speaker 2: Is oh interesting.

260
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 1: I know modern apologists are trying to harmonize some of

261
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,560
Speaker 1: the things between his earlier accounts and his eighteen thirty

262
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,880
Speaker 1: eight account. Some things you probably could say you could harmonize,

263
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 1: but there's some things you can't. I think one of

264
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,200
Speaker 1: the biggest problems in between the eighteen thirty two and

265
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty eight account is the eighteen thirty two account

266
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,440
Speaker 1: leaves out God the Father. How do you miss that?

267
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 2: That's a fair question.

268
00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 1: We miss that, But yet he does, and even though

269
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 1: later on it comes about. I think it's because Joseph

270
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:42,880
Speaker 1: Smith is embellishing his story as the years go by. Now, again,

271
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,800
Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of accounts to compare it

272
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,000
Speaker 1: to because Joseph Smith didn't talk about this. That's why

273
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 1: it's not in anybody's journals. That's why it's not really

274
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 1: even in the early history. Now. Maroni is the angel

275
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 1: who appears to Joseph Smith in eighteen twenty three to

276
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,760
Speaker 1: tell him about the gold plates. That was pretty much

277
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,119
Speaker 1: common knowledge. Joseph Smith was talking about the angel that

278
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,399
Speaker 1: told him about a gold record, and he did receive

279
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,680
Speaker 1: a lot of criticism for that, But we don't see

280
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,320
Speaker 1: any specific criticism of Joseph Smith for claiming that he

281
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 1: saw God the Father. One of the things I like

282
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,920
Speaker 1: to bring out with Latter day Saints is right after

283
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,919
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith starts the church in April of eighteen thirty,

284
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: in June of eighteen thirty, he claims he receives a

285
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: revelation from God telling him to give us a new

286
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,480
Speaker 1: translation of the scriptures, a new translation of the scriptures.

287
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: Now he doesn't know Hebrew, he doesn't know Greek. He's

288
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,160
Speaker 1: going to do this basically by himself. But he also

289
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,920
Speaker 1: claims that it took him three years before he finished,

290
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,959
Speaker 1: and that's the word he uses. He finishes his translation

291
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 1: of the scriptures. And if you want to see where,

292
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,880
Speaker 1: he says that it's volume one, page three sixty eight

293
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: of the Documentary History of the Church. That's the seven

294
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:10,120
Speaker 1: volume set July second, eighteen thirty three. We this day

295
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,120
Speaker 1: finish the scriptures. Okay, great, go back and we look

296
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 1: at Exodus thirty three twenty. In our Bible, it basically

297
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 1: says that no man can see God and live. But

298
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,639
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith adds to this passage in Exodus thirty three

299
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,080
Speaker 1: twenty and what's known as the Joseph Smith Translation, to

300
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,480
Speaker 1: go on and elaborate that no sinful man has ever

301
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 1: seen God, and no sinful man will ever see God

302
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 1: and live to tell about it. And I asked Latter

303
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 1: day Saints, this is this a contradiction? Which I know

304
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 1: it's not. And the reason why it's not a contradiction

305
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 1: is because at that time, and this can't be any

306
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,639
Speaker 1: later than eighteen thirty three. Joseph Smith wasn't saying he

307
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,960
Speaker 1: saw the Father. That doesn't come for another five years

308
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 1: interesting more years before that becomes a part of the story.

309
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: Now we can learn a lot from the Joseph Smith translation.

310
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,640
Speaker 1: I really do believe that if Smith did that, let's say,

311
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 1: in the eighteen forties rather than the eighteen thirties, it

312
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 1: would probably read very different in a lot of places,

313
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,720
Speaker 1: because his theology is certainly evolving. I've heard Mormon scholars,

314
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,639
Speaker 1: for instance, refer to the Book of Mormon as no

315
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 1: question about it. It's a monotheistic book, and it is,

316
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,679
Speaker 1: I believe it is. But that's not what Joseph Smith

317
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: was when he dies in the eighteen forties. He believed

318
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,040
Speaker 1: that there were actually three gods within the Godhead, and

319
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: not only that, but mankind has the ability to become

320
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,640
Speaker 1: gods themselves. Well, if you figure if you've got about

321
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 1: seventeen eighteen million Latter day saints divided it in half,

322
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: say half of them are males, that's the potential for

323
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,040
Speaker 1: how many gods you can have in existence. Right at

324
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,919
Speaker 1: this point, not to mention how many there's been in

325
00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 1: the past.

326
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 2: Jump in here, because we are getting to the theological

327
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,680
Speaker 2: differences that were drawing out, which is really really important.

328
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,199
Speaker 2: I want to clarify for people. There's the question of

329
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 2: what Mormonism teaches, does it align with the historic Christian faith?

330
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,879
Speaker 2: And you've rightly raised some historical challenges to the truth

331
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 2: of the LDS faith. Those are distinct but very very

332
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 2: important questions that overlap, and I appreciate that you've drawn

333
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 2: out both of those. One thing I've seen in my

334
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 2: understand You can toy correct me if this is wrong,

335
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 2: but it feels like somewhere around the nineties and I

336
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 2: guess I said, I was in high school, so maybe

337
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,360
Speaker 2: it was just on my radar, there was an intentional

338
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 2: effort to align the Mormon Church as the Church of

339
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 2: large letters Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and lean

340
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 2: into their Christian roots. Am I if we went back,

341
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,159
Speaker 2: do we find leaders initially say no, we are the

342
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 2: Church of Jesus and refer in themselves as Christians or

343
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 2: is this more of a modern phenomenon.

344
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 1: Well, the church has always claimed to be Christian, but

345
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: it goes a step further than that. It's always claimed

346
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 1: to be the only true Christian Church, and that can

347
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: be found in section one in the Doctrine and Covenants.

348
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: It makes it very clear that the church that Joseph

349
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 1: Smith brings about is the only church that God is

350
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 1: well pleased. Okay, but let me read you something here

351
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 1: that kind of gives us an understanding. This is a

352
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 1: statement from the sixth President of the Church. His name

353
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 1: was Joseph F. Smith. I know I quoted Joseph Fielding

354
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 1: Smith earlier. Well, the F in Joseph S. Smith stands

355
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: for Fielding as well, And so that we don't get

356
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: totally confused because of all the Joseph Smiths in more history.

357
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 1: That's how the Church does it, so you can distinguish

358
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: between the two. Joseph F. Smith was the sixth president

359
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: and this is a statement that he he's made that

360
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: I think puts it in perspective. If he says, for

361
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 1: I contend that the Latter day Saints are the only

362
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: good and true Christians that I know anything about in

363
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: the world. There are a good many people who profess

364
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: to be Christians, but they are not founded on the

365
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: foundation that Jesus Christ himself has laid. Now the reason

366
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,479
Speaker 1: he can say something like that is because after Joseph

367
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: Smith has this first vision, as they call it, he

368
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 1: starts the church in April of eighteen thirty and this

369
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: is supposed to be a church, a restored church that

370
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: is giving restored a restored gospel. Restoration is a big

371
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: word if we're going to understand where our LDS friends

372
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: are coming from, and when they talk about the gospel,

373
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: you have to remember they're thinking of what they think

374
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 1: is the restored Gospel, not necessarily what we would say

375
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: is the New Testament gospel. Theirs is a restored gospel.

376
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: So where is the source from that? Well, it all

377
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: goes back to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, because he's believed

378
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 1: to be a Latter Day prophet, can say and really

379
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: do just about anything he wants. And because he is

380
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 1: a prophet naturally loyal, faithful Latter day Saints are going

381
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: to believe what he has to say, many times at

382
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: the expense of what the New Testament has to say.

383
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: So we need to understand the language there. And of course,

384
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: if you're going to spend any time at all talking

385
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: with Latter day Saints, you're going to have to understand

386
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: that they use a lot of words that we use,

387
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 1: but they define those words very differently. So when you

388
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: hear them just say gospel, you need to ask them

389
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: when you say gospel, what do you mean by that?

390
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: Or when you say Jesus, what do you mean mean

391
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: by that? When you say God the Father? What do

392
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: you mean by that? Scripture? What do you mean by that?

393
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: You can do it politely, you don't have to be

394
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: snarky or anything, but it's important if we're going to

395
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: communicate to at least have our definitions clearly spelled out

396
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: so that we can avoid talking past each other. And

397
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: many times I get well meaning Christians telling me, well,

398
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: I talk to my neighbor and he's LDS and he

399
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: believes everything I believe. And I'll kind of chie it

400
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 1: him and say, oh, so does that mean you're a Mormon?

401
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: He goes, well, no, I well, if you believe everything,

402
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: you're Mormon. Neighbor believes why we are, And so I

403
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: start asking him, well, did they tell you this? Did

404
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: they tell you this or that? Well? No, I said,

405
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: did you ask them to clarify these words? Well? No,

406
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 1: why would I need to do that? Well, this is why,

407
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: this is why you have to do that.

408
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 2: Well, this is really helpful. We're going to get in

409
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: some of those issues and clarify them. But just one

410
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: more kind of historical piece to frame this for people.

411
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: What is the Great Apostasy according to the teachings of

412
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: the LDS Church.

413
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Great Apostasy is really what separates the Church

414
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints from the rest

415
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: of Christianity. There's some passages in the Book of Mormon

416
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: that tend to disparage those who are a part of Christianity.

417
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: But although they've broaden it, it's called the Church of

418
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 1: the Devil. That's the phrase that's used in the Book

419
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: of Mormon. Now leaders have clarified that and have cautioned

420
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: people not to assume that when it says the Church

421
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: of the Devil, that's speaking of only one church. It's

422
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: actually speaking of all of them, not only all churches,

423
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: but even all organizations or anything that speaks against the

424
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 1: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints or against

425
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: the principles of that the church holds to, and things

426
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: like that. Let me read you something else again, because

427
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: again I want to go back to the primary sources

428
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: from a book called the Great Apostasy, It was written

429
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: by a man named James Talmadge, who was a very

430
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: well respected general authority and apostle in the church. And

431
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: this is what he says. Noticed the language the Restored

432
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after

433
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: the Apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority,

434
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: and graces as a divine institution and degenerated into an

435
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: earthly organization. Only the significance and importance of the great

436
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: Apostasy as a condition proceeding to the precedent to the

437
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: re establishment of the Church in modern times is obvious.

438
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: He said. This is the kicker. If the alleged apostasy

439
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: of the primitive Church was not a reality, the Church

440
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is not the

441
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: divine institution its name proclaims. So, in other words, if

442
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: there was not a complete apostasy, as bh Roberts, a

443
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 1: seventy in the church stated, he said, there would be

444
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: no need for the LDS Church to even exist. So

445
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: the Latter Day Saint can't get away from that. So

446
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: when we hear, let's say, lay members in the church

447
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: say things to us like, well, we're Christians, just like you,

448
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: that's something you're not going to hear the leaders of

449
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: the church say, that's a street level Mormonism. That's not

450
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: what I hear in General Conference. That's not what I

451
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: read in the church manuals. That's not what I read

452
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: in the books written by general authorities. They don't say

453
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: things like that. And yet on the street we'll hear

454
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: something like that, or we'll hear something like, well, we

455
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: all believe in the same Jesus. Well, that's not what

456
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: the leaders say. And again that becomes the problem. How

457
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: are we to understand Mormonism if we're trying to understand

458
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: what is sometimes a very complex religion when you think

459
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: about it. But still, this is why it's important to

460
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: ask these questions. And I always tell Christians whenever I'm

461
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: teaching on this subject, never assume anything when you're talking

462
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: to a Latter day Saint. Yeah, I never go in

463
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: telling them things like, well, you believe this, or you

464
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: believe that. I want to ask the individual, well, what

465
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: is it that you believe on this, because I have

466
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: found that many times their answers can be all over

467
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: the map. And that's to be understood, I guess I mean,

468
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: and to be fair. Sometimes when Latter day Saints ask

469
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: us as Christians, they're probably getting some answers that could

470
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: be all over the map too, And I'll admit that

471
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,959
Speaker 1: does happen. That does happen. But again, we all have

472
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: to go back to our primary sources, do we not?

473
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: And hopefully we can do that even when the problem

474
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: is on our side, and certainly we don't want to

475
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: be the.

476
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: Problem like that Bill, This is fair to say. And

477
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: I know we haven't made this case yet, but I

478
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: would say as a historic Christian that Mormon is in

479
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: the LDS Church, teaches a different Jesus, a different gospel,

480
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: and has a different authority about the scriptures. And that's

481
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: kind of a standard historic view looking at the doctrine

482
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: that is taught biblically and historically, and the leadership within

483
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: the LDS Church says that you and I and historic

484
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: Christian faiths are believing a corrupt gospel and it's false.

485
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: Is that fair to say that? Really, both sides, when

486
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: properly understood, view the other outside of the realm of

487
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: following Jesus.

488
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it.

489
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: We do not hide the fact that we have some

490
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: serious problems with the theology of the Church, and when

491
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: they are usually talking among themselves, I'm speaking of Latter

492
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: day Saints. They're usually pretty open about that as well.

493
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: But there's this weird thing that I've noticed, and it

494
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: was around when I started studying Mormonism, but it seems

495
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: to be more prevalent now. For some reason, they just

496
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: feel like they have to have our blessing on their

497
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: claim to Christianity. And I've often talked with Eric about this, saying,

498
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: you know what, Eric, I don't stay up nights wondering

499
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: whether or not LDS people think I'm a Christian. I

500
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: mean that if they don't think I'm a Christian, that's

501
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: fine with me, you know. But why is it that

502
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: it seems to bother them whenever we challenge their claim

503
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: to Christianity. Now, let's think about this. If Joseph Smith

504
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: was telling the truth about this alleged First Vision, wouldn't

505
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: that mean that we can't be true Christians. How can

506
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: you be a part of the Great Apostasy and still

507
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: maintain that you're a true Christian. It doesn't make sense.

508
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: So sometimes I'll kind of kid around with some of

509
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: the Latter day Saints I'm talking to, and if they

510
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: sound like they're believing what, let's say evangelicals have historically believed,

511
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: I'll kind of smile and say, you know, I'm glad

512
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: to hear what you're saying. You seem to becoming in

513
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: our direction. We're not going in your direct. I have

514
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: no desire to believe in try theism. I have no

515
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: desire to have to keep all the commandments in order

516
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: to be justified. I have no desire for any of that.

517
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: But yet I'm finding and maybe it's because Christians are

518
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: sharing their faith with Latter day Saints. I think there's

519
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: a lot of Latter day Saints that really want what

520
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: we have, but the church, their church prevents them from having.

521
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: Because it's almost like that scene in Godfather when Michael

522
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: corle Leone says I'm trying to get out and they

523
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: keep drawing me back in. You know, it's kind of

524
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: that way. I think with some Latter day Saints they

525
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: like our view of justification by faith. However, how do

526
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: you belong to a church believing that when you've had

527
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: leaders say that justification by faith alone is a pernicious doctrine.

528
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to have both you need to

529
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: make up your mind if you're a Latter Day Saint

530
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: and pick one. Because if you want to go the

531
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: Church's way, then fine. That means you have to keep

532
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: all the commandments. You have to repent of all your sins,

533
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: and according to the way it's been described by their leaders, repentance,

534
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: true repentance is confessing your sin, never repeating that sin again.

535
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 1: I've never met a Latter Day Saint like that, quite honestly,

536
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: I've never met one. And be quite honest, I've never

537
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: met a Latter Day se who is qualified for the

538
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: Celestial Kingdom. They're just not because in order to go

539
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: to the Celestial Kingdom, the highest level of Mormon heaven,

540
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: you have to keep celestial law, which involves keeping all

541
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: of the commandments. All of the commandments, not some. You

542
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 1: don't get to pick which ones you want. You have

543
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: to keep them all, as well as having repented of

544
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: all your sins, never to repeat those sins again. If

545
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: you do repeat your sins again, your former sins return,

546
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: according to the Doctor and Covenants.

547
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,719
Speaker 2: Man, all right, so Bill, before we jump in, it's

548
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,959
Speaker 2: is we're getting really close. I know people are going, Okay,

549
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: lay out the differences, But what do you see being

550
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: at stake? I want you to steal man from the

551
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: side of the Latter day Saint church. What they think

552
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: is at stake with us not coming along and embracing

553
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: Joseph Smith and his teachings, And what's at stake from

554
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: a historic Christian position looking at the Church of JESU

555
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: Christ or latterday Saints.

556
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: And that's an excellent question, and I think it tends

557
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: to explain why Latter day Saints may be getting frustrated

558
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: with us. We have a sense of urgency. We really

559
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: feel this mortality is the time to come to faith.

560
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: Now is the time, okay? And if you wait till

561
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: after you die, I guess you could say we kind

562
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: of believe like the Book of Mormon teaches, because the

563
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon actually says if you procrastinate your repentance

564
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: even until death, the devil has sealed you his Now,

565
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: modern Mormonism tends to say that maybe there's an opportunity

566
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: for you to get things right in the next life,

567
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: but it comes with it comes with conditions. I don't

568
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: know if you want to get into all that, But

569
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: they don't have that sense of urgency for us. Because,

570
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: according to their theology, if we were not to embrace

571
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith as a prophet, if we were not to

572
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: embrace what they believe to be the Restored Gospel, and

573
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: if we were not to join the only true Church,

574
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: which of course they think is their church, we would

575
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: merely go to a lower level of heaven. They would say,

576
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: that's not a bad place. In fact, they would probably

577
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 1: even tell you, you will go to the terrestrial Kingdom.

578
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: Being a good Bible believing Christian and you claim you

579
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: want to be with Jesus, well, hey, guess what. Jesus

580
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: is going to be there in the terrestrial Kingdom, so

581
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: you'll get what you want. If you're not quite as good,

582
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: you go to a level lower, the telestial Kingdom. But

583
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: Latter day Saints aren't looking to go to the terrestrial Kingdom.

584
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: They're not going to go. They don't want to go

585
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: to the telestial Kingdom. They want to go to the

586
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: celestial Kingdom. Why what are the perks in the celestial Kingdom?

587
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: Why would a Latter day Saint want that over the

588
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: other two. Well, that's where they're going to be with

589
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: their family. And I've asked many Latter day Saints what

590
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: is it you want in the next life? What is

591
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: it you hope to receive in the next life. Most

592
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: of them will say, I want to be with my family.

593
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: That's what they're looking forward to. The problem with wanting that,

594
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: and that's not really inherently a bad thing. I would

595
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: love to have my family in heaven too. I want

596
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: to be there with my family. But if they don't

597
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: put their faith in Christ and have their sins forgiven,

598
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: I understand fully what the New Testament says, they won't

599
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 1: be there. And it kind of works the same way

600
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: in Mormonism. If you, for instance, have a son who

601
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: is not quite living up to the to the dictates

602
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: of your faith, that son will not be in the

603
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: Celestial Kingdom. You will not be with that son. If

604
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: your spouse, let's say, speaking to the ladies, if your

605
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: husband has some secret sin out there that nobody knows

606
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: about but him and God, He's going to be held

607
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: accountable for that sin. Because of that, he will not

608
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: be keeping celestial law. He will not go to the

609
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: Celestial Kingdom. Can you imagine belonging to a faith and

610
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: your whole hope has been built about being with your

611
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: spouse throughout eternity, and if Mormonism is true, you get

612
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: there after you die and you're wondering, well, where's my husband? Well,

613
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: too bad, he's in the terrestrial So what happens to you? Now,

614
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: this is where a lot of speculation comes in. But

615
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 1: some have said that you'll probably if you're a female

616
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: without your spouse in the next life, you'll be divvied

617
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: out to some other Mormon male. Oh wow, someone maybe

618
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: you didn't even know. Someone you may have known and

619
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: probably didn't like. Who knows. You know, it's speculation. There's

620
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: nothing really in their scriptures about it. But these are

621
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: some of the hints that leaders have given over the

622
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: years because they have to come up with some kind

623
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: of answer for their membership, because these are real questions

624
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: that many members have. There's a lot of questions when

625
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: it comes to the Mormon hereafter. For instance, if you're

626
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: keeping celestial law as a Mormon male, that means you

627
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: are eligible to get your own world in the next life.

628
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: You will then become God over that world. Now LDS

629
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: leaders have spelled this out. I know there are some

630
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: Latter day Saints maybe they're embarrassed by this doctrine and

631
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: try to tell us, Well, that's not what we believe.

632
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: Let me just say this. No Mormon that you're probably

633
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: talking to has any right to say we don't believe

634
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: this or we don't believe that. They don't speak for

635
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: the church. Wow, And I know there's a lot of

636
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: Latter day Saints that do that. The only one that

637
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: speaks for the church is the prophet of the church,

638
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: the president of the church. He's the only one. Everyone

639
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: else has to come under the auspices and authority of

640
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: those individuals that are above them. But when we hear

641
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: Latter day Saint, for instance, well, we don't believe that

642
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 1: we're going to become gods. And I've heard some say

643
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: that it seems to undermine or at least contradict so

644
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: many teachings that have been taught throughout the history of

645
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: the church, especially the Lorenzo Snow couplet. You know that

646
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: they're going to as many as God once was, as

647
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: God is man may be. I mean, that's still in

648
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: pretty modern manuals that were printed in the last ten

649
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: twenty years, so it's not a nineteenth century doctrine. And

650
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: that was something that Joseph Smith also taught similarly in

651
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: his King fall at Discourse, which some have said is

652
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: the best sermon, the most important sermon Joseph Smith ever gave,

653
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: and that was in April forty four when he taught

654
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: that it's a horrendous sermon when.

655
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 2: You read Victory.

656
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 1: Oh, man, it's a full horrible doctrine. But when you've

657
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: got LDS scholars saying it's one of the best, think

658
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: about that. Why would they say.

659
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: That we're going to come to the character God here,

660
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: and man, I have one quick observation that we're going

661
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: to really start to walk through some of the distinctions

662
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: here as you talk about the afterlife. Bill, I was

663
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: getting a tour at Temple Square of one of the museums,

664
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 2: and my host was a widow who was married in

665
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 2: the temple and had lived a life according to Mormon teachings.

666
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: And I asked her, I said, well, could you get remarried?

667
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: And she said, well, I could get remarried for this life,

668
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: but not remarried in the temple for the next life.

669
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: I said, well, what if your husband had lived and

670
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: you had died. She said, well, he could get remarried

671
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: in the temple and sealed to another wife, but not me.

672
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'll due respect number one, That

673
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: just strikes me as a little sexist. But second, what

674
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 2: if you get sired for eternity with another woman that

675
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: you didn't choose and you don't even like and she

676
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: looked at me like she had never even thought about it,

677
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: didn't know what to do with that. I wasn't trying

678
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: to be aggressive, just asking questions. We could do a

679
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: whole show on this, because in some ways, part of

680
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: the draw to LDS faith is you get to be

681
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: with your family in the afterlife, And like you said,

682
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: I get that on the surface, but if you start

683
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: going a little bit further, it raises even bigger problems

684
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: that again we could circle back to. But let's go

685
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: to the big issue that everybody really wants to talk about.

686
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: I've about five or six doctrinal issues for you. Really,

687
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: the dividing line, of course, is going to be the

688
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: person of Jesus. What are the similarities? But what would

689
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: you say are the key differences in who Jesus is

690
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: and what he accomplished?

691
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: Well, well, they have a Jesus, that's for sure. And

692
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: although as I mentioned earlier, LDS leaders have made it

693
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: very clear that their Jesus is different than our Jesus.

694
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: In fact, Bruce McConkie a morem An apostle who wrote

695
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: a number of things on LDS doctrine. I know mconkie

696
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 1: sometimes has fallen out of favor with some modern latter days,

697
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: but when mconkie was alive, man, he was the guy

698
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: everybody looked up to. I mean, he wrote a book

699
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: called Mormon Doctor, and what do he thinks in it? Okay?

700
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: I know there's some controversy about his fifty eight edition,

701
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 1: but I think the controversy about his fifty eight edition

702
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 1: was more in how he presented the message, but not

703
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: necessarily the message itself. And a lot of what he

704
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: taught in his fifty eight edition found its way into

705
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: the sixty sixth edition and later the seventy nine edition,

706
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: teaching basically the same thing. But you're asking rephrase your

707
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: question because I want to make sure I precisely answer

708
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: the question.

709
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: Compare and contrast the historic Christian view of Jesus with

710
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: the view of Jesus in the Mormon Journy.

711
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: Right, it was mconkie who said we believe in a

712
00:42:55,040 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: mythical Christ. That's one of mconkie's statements. You have also

713
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: Gordon b. Hinckley that also said that we believe in

714
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: a different Jesus. You have Bernard Peep Brockbank who said

715
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: that we as Christians believe in a different Jesus. They're Jesus,

716
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: according to the Grand narrative, is an offspring of Heavenly

717
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: Father and a heavenly Mother. Between this relationship, in what

718
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 1: we would call our pre existence in the spirit world,

719
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 1: Heavenly Father, the one they call Elohem and Heavenly Mother,

720
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: she doesn't have a proper name, she's just known as

721
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: Heavenly Mother, get together as a married couple, and they

722
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: have even though they have bodies of flesh and bones,

723
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: they have a spirit child and they call him Jehovah

724
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: in the pre existence. Okay, later on we know him

725
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: as Jesus. They also have other children in this pre existence. Lucifer,

726
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 1: for instance, is a child that is from their relationship,

727
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: and we are a result of this relationship. So we're

728
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 1: all spirit brothers and sisters. According to Mormonism, that's where

729
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: the connection comes with Jesus and Lucifer. Jesus is the

730
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: spirit son of God, of Heavenly Father and Mother. Lucifer

731
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: is a son of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. You Sean,

732
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: you're a son of Heavenly Father and Mother, I myself am.

733
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: We all are. So not only should it bother us

734
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: that Jesus is related somehow to Lucifer, we're related to

735
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: him as well, basically in the same way. And of

736
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 1: course Jesus somehow, And I don't know how this happens

737
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: because it seems like an anomaly, but Mconkey was one

738
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: of them that actually spelled this out, probably clearer than most.

739
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: Somehow Jesus in this pre existent state was able to

740
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: prove himself worth enough to become a god in the

741
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 1: pre existence. Now, we can't do that, or we didn't

742
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: do that, and it doesn't even sound like heavenly Father

743
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: when he was once a man. As Joseph Smith taught,

744
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: he didn't do it either. But somehow Jesus is able

745
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: to be elevated to the level of a god in

746
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: the pre existence. Now why is that significant? It's significant

747
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: because the reason why we are here on this earth

748
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: is to prove our worthiness in order to become a

749
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: god after we die. Somehow Jesus does it without coming

750
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: to an earth and proving himself. How did that happen?

751
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: Because we're told in their manuals and such that we

752
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: could only progress so far in our pre existent state,

753
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: making it necessary to come down to earth and be

754
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: tempted and tried, and to overcome our sins and temptations.

755
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: It seems like Jesus skipped that one, and so I

756
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: don't really know how that works. It's just assumed that

757
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: that's what happened. Now Jesus does in their theology, he

758
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: does atone for the sins of mankind. Again, there's some

759
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: differences here because for much of the history of the Church,

760
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 1: the Atonement took place in the Garden of Gsemone. And

761
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: it's not that they denied that there was a cross,

762
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: because the cross, the Crucifixion has talked about in the

763
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon. It's there, but it seemed to almost

764
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:46,240
Speaker 1: get an afterthought whenever they would show in the older manuals,

765
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: in particular, the picture of Jesus in the garden of Gsemite.

766
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: It wouldn't be uncommon for a picture of a few

767
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 1: pages down or maybe across the page of showing Jesus

768
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: on the cross, but the emphasis was always the garden.

769
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: And this is how it's emphasized in the doctrine and covenants.

770
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 1: And there's even some scholars that have said that Jesus

771
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: paid for mankind's sin, all of mankind's sin in the garden,

772
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: which raises the obvious question, well, if he paid for

773
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: all of the sins of mankind in the garden, what

774
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: was left for him to do on the cross. I've

775
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: never really seen a distinction between the necessity of these

776
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: two places, but you would think if all of them

777
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: were paid for in one place, you wouldn't need a

778
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: second place. And of course we would never say that

779
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: the atonement took place in the garden, because an atonement

780
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: requires a death of the sacrifice. Jesus didn't die in

781
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: the garden. Now it talks about him sweating as it

782
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 1: were great drops of blood, and of course latter day

783
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: saints take that as as literal blood that was spilt.

784
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: That was the word that bres Cockyl liked to you.

785
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: But there was no death. You have to have a

786
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: death in order for in atonement to take place. So

787
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: while we would recognize Jesus certainly suffered greatly in the garden,

788
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: why did he suffer because he knew where he was going,

789
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: and even what I think it was Talmadge, James Talmadch

790
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: it actually brings that out. He saw that as well,

791
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: So there's a difference there.

792
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 2: Also, this is a somewhat separate issue, but there's a

793
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: textual problem with the claim that Jesus sweat like drops

794
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 2: of blood, which is only in Luke, and there's questions

795
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 2: nonetheless if it even was originally in Luke. And you

796
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: see a lot of these historical issues emerged, Like I

797
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 2: read the Book of Mormon quoting some of the contested

798
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 2: passages that we now know were likely not in the original,

799
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 2: Like the ending of Mark suggests somebody writing this that

800
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: is not aware of what's actually inspired and what's not.

801
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 2: But that's only the beginning of the historical problems. We're

802
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 2: talking about theological differences here, so clear differences with the

803
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: person Jesus did. So does this imply that Jesus once

804
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: sinned since we sinned and were like him? Or is

805
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 2: the church silent on that they do.

806
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: Talk about Jesus being sinless? Brigham Young, he said some

807
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: things that make you wonder what Brigham Young believed on

808
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: that that there was a possibility he could have But

809
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: if a latter day saint wants to believe that he

810
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: that he thinks Jesus during his mortality did not sin.

811
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: That's fine. My question is is, well, what do you

812
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: do with your version of God the Father? Did he

813
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: sin because Joseph Smith thought that he was a man

814
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: like us and that he had to overcome like we

815
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 1: are having to overcome. Well, the question obviously is well

816
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 1: what did he have to overcome? I know what I'm

817
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: supposed to overcome, but what did he overcome? So, in

818
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: other words, God the Father was on the same type

819
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: of path, covenant path is what they call it, as

820
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: we are on the same kind of covenant path. The

821
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: covenant path is I guess you could say it's code

822
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: word for works. Okay, keeping all their covenants. Mainly, you

823
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 1: promise to keep all the commandments. You do that when

824
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: you're baptized, you do that, when you partake of the

825
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: sacrament each week, you do that when you go to

826
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: the temple as a Latter day saints as a latter

827
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: day saint. So works are always important. In fact, let

828
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: me back up a little bit. Yeah, the reason that

829
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: we are born here on this earth in physical bodies

830
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: was a result of our good works in the preexistence.

831
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: Because in Mormonism, it's taught that when Jesus was picked

832
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: to be the savior of this world, his brother Lucif

833
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: got upset and rebelled against not only his brother but

834
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: also his father Elohim. There was a war in heaven.

835
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: One third of God's spirit children decided to choose the

836
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: side of Lucifer to fight against heavenly Father and Jesus

837
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: and so forth. Of course, he loses, and so Lucifer

838
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: becomes the devil, and all the other spirit children of

839
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: God that followed Lucifer in that war, they become the demons.

840
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 1: Now why is this important? I had an interesting conversation

841
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: with a Latter day Saint outside of the Fresno Temple

842
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: many years ago when they opened the Fresno Temple in California.

843
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: And it was great because he was directing traffic and

844
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: he had to stay in one spot for I think

845
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: it was at least a two hour period. So I

846
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 1: just parked myself next to him and I'm handing out

847
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: and I'm talking to him. We're having a great conversation,

848
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: and we got on the subject of judgment and he

849
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: made the comment he says, well, I don't believe that

850
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: God will ever send his children to Hell because they

851
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: believe where all the literal children of God. Wha, we'll

852
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: stop there for a minute. Don't you believe in the

853
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: war in heaven as it's taught by your church? Well, yeah,

854
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: he said, Well, doesn't that say that all those that

855
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: chose the side of Lucifer weren't those God spirit children.

856
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: Weren't those your brothers and sisters in the pre existence.

857
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: You can't say He's not going to send his children

858
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: to Hell when one third of them right off the

859
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: bat are going to go to outer Darkness, which is

860
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: kind of their equivalent of the biblical hell, and they

861
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: go there for one mistake, one mistake, they chose the

862
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: wrong side. And then I asked him how many mistakes

863
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: or sins have you made and you think you're not

864
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: worthy of going there? I mean, he had to rethink that,

865
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: because yes, God does send his children to Hell or

866
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: outer darkness as they call it.

867
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 2: So we talked about Jesus a little bit. You hit

868
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 2: on hell, which is really important. The character of God,

869
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 2: God the Father. You mentioned a little bit that God

870
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 2: was once a man like we are, and so God

871
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 2: the Father sinned in the past and had a God

872
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 2: who was once a man who presumably sinned? Is that fair?

873
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 2: Before I keep going.

874
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's it's fair, But I'm Mormon. Might

875
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: say it's more speculation because it doesn't okay, there's nothing

876
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: really written on it. However, Sean, I would think that

877
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 1: drawing that conclusion would be absolutely consistent, because if he

878
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: was a man like us, as man is God once was.

879
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: I always ask the latter day saying, well, what kind

880
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 1: of a man am I? What kind of a man

881
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: are you? My first description is I am a sin man.

882
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: That's what defines me. Unfortunately, by myself, without Jesus in

883
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,720
Speaker 1: my life, I am a sinful man. They would probably

884
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 1: agree with that. So if God was a man like us,

885
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: how can you consistently say that he couldn't have sinned?

886
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: And if he did, what kind of sin did he

887
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 1: possibly sin? You know? I mean, it opens the door

888
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: for all sorts of speculation. But it's not unusual to

889
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: find latter day saints that don't have a problem with

890
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 1: God sinning. And this is why they'll say saying things like, well,

891
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: the fact that Heavenly Father sinned helps me because I

892
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 1: know I sinned, and when I look at it, Heavenly

893
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: Father accomplished as a sinner, I know that I can

894
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: accomplish those things too. So again, they're looking at heavenly

895
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: Father as the big great example and if they just

896
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: do enough that they can eventually and like him. They

897
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: don't believe that even if they became a god, that

898
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 1: they would ever be above him. But they do believe

899
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: that they will be deity. They have the germs of

900
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 1: deity in them. They are gods in embryo, that's the

901
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: phrase that's been used. And when they get their own worlds,

902
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: if they were to meet all the requirements, the offspring

903
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 1: that they will have on their earth. This is why

904
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: being married for time and eternity is so important, because

905
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: you need to be with your wife in eternity because

906
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: she's going to be cranking out these children. You want

907
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: to fill your world or as some say planet, And

908
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: I know some Mormons they cringe when they hear the

909
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: word planet, but hey, Orson Whitney, a Mormon apostle, use

910
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: the word planet, so I'm just following his lead on that.

911
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 1: But they do believe that what they are hoping for

912
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: is a I guess you could say a repetition of

913
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 1: what has happened in the past, and that's what they're

914
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 1: trying to accomplish. What God did is what we're supposed

915
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: to do, and then we will be God's as well

916
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: and have our own worlds. Now, think about this in

917
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 1: that kind of scenario, Where's Jesus. Where's the Jesus we

918
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: know now? He doesn't play a role in the Mormon

919
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 1: hereafter after judgment, it's all on them. It's all about them.

920
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: And I've often asked the question, I still I don't

921
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: get a good answer from latter day saints. Why is

922
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: Jesus still living at home? You might say, I mean,

923
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 1: he was perfect, he would think already he would be

924
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: having his own world and such. But it seems like

925
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 1: there's this father son relationship in Mormonism to this day,

926
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 1: which sounds a little bit confusing to me, unless, of course,

927
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: a Mormon wants to say, well, he has to wait

928
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: for judgment day. What why would Jesus need to be judged?

929
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: Didn't he already become a god anyway? And so many

930
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: things are so confusing it doesn't really make sense. But

931
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: you're going to find a lie. A lot of Latter

932
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 1: day saints, they don't really think doctrinally so much as

933
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 1: they think with their feelings. Yeah, feelings is what leads

934
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: them in all these areas. So a lot of latter

935
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: day saints don't feel that they need to have answers

936
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: for a lot of these questions that probably keep you

937
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: and me up at night trying to figure this out.

938
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: They just don't. They feel it. They feel the Holy

939
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: Ghost confirmed it to them, and for them that's good enough.

940
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 2: And I have some compassion for that. There's certain things

941
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 2: you and I would say, well, that's a mystery, we

942
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 2: can't fully understand it. But there's a difference between a contradiction,

943
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 2: a direct historical problem, heretical teachings, and mystery. These are

944
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: not the same things. So I just want to point

945
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: out for people we're not even arguing that the historic

946
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 2: Christian view is true, which shrine out differences and the

947
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: historic Christian view. Hence John one and Colossians one fifteen

948
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 2: through sixteen Jesus as an eternal, uncreated member of the

949
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 2: Godhead or the Trinity. That language is added later, but

950
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 2: the Bible teaches this. He didn't become a god, always

951
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 2: was and always will be. So to say that we

952
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: are ontologically the same as Jesus is really just to

953
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: insult the character of God on the highest level. So, yes,

954
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 2: Jesus is God who took on human flesh, and we

955
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 2: share that in commonality with Jesus. But the way you

956
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 2: talk about Jesus coming from heavenly Father and heavenly Mother

957
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 2: makes us equivalent at least for a season, and completely

958
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 2: eliminates the ontological difference between us and Jesus, which has

959
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 2: been a heart part of the Christian historic Christian faith,

960
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 2: going back to the beginning.

961
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. In fact, there's a phrase that some

962
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:04,919
Speaker 1: believe have used that God, angels and men are all

963
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: of the same species. That's a phrase that they have used.

964
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: God's angels and men are all of the same species.

965
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: And I've often explained to latter day saints, I says,

966
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: this is where we have a real huge divide, because

967
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: the last thing I want to worship is a big

968
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 1: one of me. Okay, And really, if I were to

969
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: become a god, one thing great about the God we worship.

970
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: We look at him as being all holy, all righteous,

971
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: and because of that, He can rightfully demand of us

972
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 1: that we be holy because He is holy. Am I

973
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 1: if I were to become a latter day saint and

974
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: become a God. With any latterday saint listening to this,

975
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,439
Speaker 1: if they were to become a god, are they going

976
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: to have the gall to tell their offspring that they

977
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: shouldn't sin when they know they did. You see the

978
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: problem with that isn't that just utter hypocrisy? Are they

979
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: going to threaten their offspring, as the God of Mormonism

980
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: does with them, that if they don't live up to

981
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: all these standards, that they're going to be put in

982
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: a lower level of heaven in the next life. I mean,

983
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: they did that, and yet they're going to expect something

984
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 1: more from their alleged offspring. If Mormonism happens to be true,

985
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: it's I know, bottles of the mind. Bill.

986
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 2: One of the other big issues we have to talk

987
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 2: about is a relationship between grace, faith and works. And

988
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 2: of course, even within the historic Christian Church, you'll find

989
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 2: some differences between say Catholicism, and between say Orthodox and Protestant.

990
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 2: But what are the key differences you would say, between

991
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: historic Christian faith or if you want to just make

992
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: it distinguished between Evangelicalism and that and Protestantism. That's fine

993
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 2: compared with what Mormonism has taught about that dynamic.

994
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Olds Church does have a doctrine of grace,

995
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: but even the doctrine of grace needs to be defined

996
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: the benefits of this grace, the grace that forgives you

997
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: of your sins, can only be gained as you keep

998
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: the commandments and you repent. I have here this is

999
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: the current manual that is used by LDS missionaries, and

1000
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: on page thirty one, this is what it says, because

1001
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: of Jesus's atoning sacrifice, we can be forgiven and cleansed

1002
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: of our sins as we repent. Now, think about that.

1003
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: No Latter day Saint that I have ever met has

1004
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: stopped repenting. In other words, they would need to stop repenting.

1005
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 1: You would think if they're effectively keeping all the commandments

1006
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: every minute of the day, why repent if you're keeping

1007
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: all the commandments. But it says here that you are

1008
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: cleansed as you repent. That means your forgiveness is incremental.

1009
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 1: What if you were to overlook one of your sins

1010
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: and didn't repent of it, are you still culpable? Well?

1011
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: LDS leaders have said you are well if you forget

1012
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: one you didn't ask for forgiveness of that or you

1013
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 1: haven't stopped doing it. Maybe you're not aware you know

1014
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: that you're an obnoxious bore and need to repent of

1015
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: all that. Maybe you think that's normal behavior. Why would

1016
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: you repent if you think it's normal behavior. But yet,

1017
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: if you're going to get your forgiveness in this incremental manner,

1018
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: you can never know if all your sins are forgiven,

1019
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:56,919
Speaker 1: And that must be a horrible burden for the Latter

1020
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: day saint that reads things like this and reads other

1021
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: things that their leaders have put out, and they realized,

1022
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 1: I'm not living up to this. This is why when

1023
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 1: I ask Latter Day Saints if they were to die

1024
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 1: right now, do you have the assurance that all of

1025
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 1: your sins are forgiven and that you would get the

1026
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: best your religion offers you, which, of course they would

1027
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 1: know that's celestial exaltation. Rarely, rarely do I ever have

1028
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 1: a Latter Day saint tell me with a sure of affirmation, Yep,

1029
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 1: I have no doubt whatsoever. I did have one guy

1030
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 1: in Manti say something similar. He told me he was

1031
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: keeping all the commandments, but the problem was his wife

1032
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: was standing right there, and I all just turn to

1033
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: her and say, really, he keeps all the commandments, and

1034
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: she kind of sheepishly shook her head, like, no, well,

1035
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 1: none of us keep all the commandments. That's why we

1036
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 1: need to look to the cross. He paid it all.

1037
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: And that's what's really offensive about Mormonism is because what

1038
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 1: they're teaching their people is that Jesus didn't pay at all,

1039
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: that there was something left that you need to do

1040
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: to complete the puzzle. We don't think that way because

1041
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 1: even if we could offer the best work we could

1042
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: muster up, it would still be tainted by our fallenness.

1043
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: How does that impress an all holy God? And yet

1044
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 1: that's what Mormons are doing. And the fact that they're

1045
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: doing these works in order to get something from God,

1046
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 1: in this case exaltation, shows that they're doing it out

1047
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:38,479
Speaker 1: of a selfish motive. Well, when Mormonism selfishness is a sin,

1048
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: why would this be any different. And that's that's why

1049
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: that the Gospel of Grace and the New Testament is

1050
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: just really, as the song says, it is amazing. We

1051
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 1: can't even fathom how amazing it is until we really

1052
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 1: look at ourselves in the sinfulness that we that we have,

1053
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: and and and again in saying that I'm not trying

1054
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: to say that Mormons are bad people. I'm merely saying

1055
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 1: that we're well, we're all kind of bad people when

1056
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 1: you think about it. They're not any work i am.

1057
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: In fact, I've told many Latter day saints you're probably

1058
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: a better person than I am, and that's to be commended.

1059
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 1: But are you good enough? And I would have to

1060
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: say no, none of us are good enough. We all

1061
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 1: have to come to the foot of the cross recognizing

1062
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 1: that Jesus paid completely for our sins. There's nothing that

1063
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 1: he did not cover when he paid for that, when

1064
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 1: he paid that price bill.

1065
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 2: That's really helpful to make that clarification of what grace covers.

1066
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 2: And then mis Ephesians two eight through ten says, then

1067
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 2: we do works out of being a new creation and

1068
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 2: the grace that God has given us through faith, which

1069
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 2: is very different than Second five twenty five twenty three

1070
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 2: that says we have grace after all that we can

1071
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 2: do or give.

1072
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,439
Speaker 1: Maroni ten thirty two, deny yourself of all ungodliness, then

1073
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: His grace is sufficient for you. Well, that's not comforting

1074
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 1: to me. Okay, I have never denied myself of all ungodliness,

1075
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 1: and I think most Latter day Saints, if they were

1076
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 1: asked that question in a crowded room, they would be

1077
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 1: honest and say they haven't either. And if that verse

1078
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: is to be taken as gospel truth, and it is

1079
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 1: used by LDS leaders that way, you must overcome all

1080
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: these sins before you get the grace that forgives you

1081
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 1: of your sins. It's not that they don't have grace

1082
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: up until that point that helps them keep the commandments

1083
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: and such, but they don't get the grace that forgives

1084
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: them of their sins until after they've accomplished all that's necessary,

1085
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: and Marni ten thirty two spells it out for them.

1086
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 2: Bill, my hope was to walk through with you, and

1087
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 2: I think we have the person of Jesus, the character

1088
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 2: of God, grace and works. We talk some about the

1089
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 2: scriptures and the difference that are there some at the

1090
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 2: nature Man, did I miss any key doctrinal differences that

1091
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 2: you want to highlight here?

1092
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: No, I think we pretty much cover all that you

1093
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 1: wanted to cover, and these are all the important ones.

1094
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: And it's a good point that we're talking about that

1095
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 1: because these are subjects that I think need to be

1096
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 1: brought up in a conversation. Maybe not the first conversation,

1097
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: you probably aren't going to cover them all, but oftentimes

1098
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 1: whenever I'm doing what we call stranger evangelism, I want

1099
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 1: to get to the heart of the matter with them

1100
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: as soon as I possibly can. This is why I'm

1101
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: a bit reluctant to go off on a lot of

1102
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 1: historical rabbit trails, because one, they probably haven't read some

1103
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: of the things that I would be bringing up that

1104
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: bother me. So I want to find out where is

1105
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 1: this Latter day Saint right now in light of eternity.

1106
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 1: And the only way I'm going to know that is

1107
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:00,040
Speaker 1: by asking them questions. And I like to focus on

1108
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 1: on the forgiveness issue. And this is why you can't

1109
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 1: really claim that you're a Christian unless your sins are forgiven.

1110
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 2: Amen.

1111
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 1: Well, if a Latter day Saint doesn't know if his

1112
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: sins are forgiven, isn't he being a bit presumptuous to

1113
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:18,879
Speaker 1: assume he's a Christian? I think it makes sense if Jesus,

1114
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 1: as it says in Matthew One, came to save his

1115
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 1: people from their sins, and they don't know if they're

1116
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: saved from the penalty of their sins, then how can

1117
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: they honestly believe consistently that they are one of His people.

1118
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: That's what I want to get across to the Latter

1119
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 1: day Saint. I'm not trying to say I'm better than

1120
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: you are, because I'm not, But I want them to

1121
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 1: see that none of us can do what's necessary to

1122
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 1: earn our own salvation. Even with this grace that Mormons

1123
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:58,479
Speaker 1: claim that they have, they still come short, which go

1124
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:00,440
Speaker 1: right along with Romans three.

1125
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 2: You know, Bills it fair to say, I see, as

1126
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 2: you do in my conversations that there's a number of

1127
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 2: people as a part of the LDS Church who really

1128
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 2: want to affirm we believe in Jesus, we believe the Gospel,

1129
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 2: will we breathe in grace? And they will articulate what,

1130
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:17,600
Speaker 2: at least on the service what sounds a lot like

1131
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 2: evangelical beliefs, And they might actually hold some of these

1132
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:25,480
Speaker 2: evangelical beliefs, but what's holding them back is the leadership.

1133
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 2: So if there's this shifting, then the leadership needs to

1134
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 2: own it and repent and change of their beliefs. Because

1135
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 2: people might say, well, you are calling out profits and

1136
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:41,639
Speaker 2: apostles you know from the past and maybe some today.

1137
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,719
Speaker 2: And your point is, according to the historic Mormon faith,

1138
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:50,599
Speaker 2: they are leaders and they speak with authority until the

1139
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 2: current authority says we have shifted, and here's why is

1140
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 2: that fair? Do you agree with that?

1141
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 1: I totally agree. I've been saying for years that I

1142
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 1: think the LDS leadership owes their members a lot of

1143
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: public repentance for the false thinking things that they have

1144
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,759
Speaker 1: been teaching over the years. You don't usually see LDS

1145
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 1: leaders do that. Well, they might say, well, we're like

1146
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 1: everybody else, we make silly mistakes. And usually I find

1147
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 1: whenever they admit something like that, it's usually in their childhood.

1148
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 1: It's not something that they're doing now. And of course

1149
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 1: you know they are, and because we all do. But

1150
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 1: I think they do need to repent of a lot

1151
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 1: of things, if you want my short list. I think

1152
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 1: they need to repent of the lie of the first Vision.

1153
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 1: I think they need to repent of the lie of

1154
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 1: the gold Plate story. I think they need to repent

1155
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:51,639
Speaker 1: of a lot of the things that Joseph Smith taught

1156
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: and did, and somehow they excuse him. Can you imagine

1157
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 1: if the current leader of the church was doing the

1158
01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 1: things that Joseph Smith did. Do you think a lot

1159
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 1: of modern latter day Saints would line up behind them?

1160
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 1: I don't think so. But yet, for some reason, a

1161
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 1: lot of latter day Saints turn a blind eye to

1162
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 1: this man's horrible behavior, especially when it comes to the

1163
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: subject of polygamy and lying to his wife, Emma about

1164
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 1: the wives that he had married secretly. I've often said publicly,

1165
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 1: I'm not ashamed to say it again. A man that

1166
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: will lie to his wife will lie to anybody.

1167
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 2: There you go.

1168
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 1: You cannot trust this man. And when I hear leaders

1169
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:38,719
Speaker 1: get up and talk about the virtue of Joseph Smith,

1170
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:41,679
Speaker 1: I just can't help but just shake my head.

1171
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate your clarity on this. Would you if

1172
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 2: somebody does a good faith response to this? And I've

1173
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 2: had some interactions with members of the LDS Church. Most

1174
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 2: are gracious and kind and interact in a way we

1175
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,679
Speaker 2: would want anybody to interact, but I've had my fair

1176
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 2: share of attacks and criticisms. If there's a number of

1177
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 2: good faith responses, would you and or Eric Johnson or

1178
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:11,559
Speaker 2: someone from your team come back and consider responding to

1179
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 2: some of those claims?

1180
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we'd be glad to be glad to you.

1181
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 2: Awesome. What would you say to somebody who stayed with

1182
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 2: us and either a Christian who has a friend who's

1183
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:26,599
Speaker 2: a Mormon or somebody who's in the LDS church right

1184
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:29,559
Speaker 2: now and heard this and kind of goes, well, maybe

1185
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 2: I haven't heard this before. I'm a little unsettled. What

1186
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:35,760
Speaker 2: steps should I take next?

1187
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 1: Well, I think from our point of view, we should

1188
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 1: not look at Latter Day Saints as the enemy. And

1189
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 1: I know that's easy to do, and we shouldn't. I

1190
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 1: tend to view them when I'm talking to them, I'm

1191
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:52,919
Speaker 1: looking at what I believe to be as a victim

1192
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 1: of the Mormon establishment. They probably don't know a lot

1193
01:12:57,439 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 1: of things about their faith, and that's a question I've

1194
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 1: often asked many Latter Day Saints. If I were to

1195
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 1: put a circle on a piece of white paper, and

1196
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:06,679
Speaker 1: you were to fill in that circle, according to all

1197
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:09,240
Speaker 1: you know about your religion, how much of that circle

1198
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 1: would you fill in? He's a prise. A lot of

1199
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 1: them say I probably have a lot of white area.

1200
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,640
Speaker 1: So in other words, you're admitting there could be a

1201
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 1: lot of things about your faith that you're not aware of.

1202
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 1: That if you heard about these things, it might make

1203
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:26,360
Speaker 1: you reconsider that's an honesty, and I think as a

1204
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 1: Christian I want to be as vulnerable as I should

1205
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,560
Speaker 1: be on that. My circle when it comes to Christianity

1206
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 1: would probably have a lot of white space too, and

1207
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:38,559
Speaker 1: so we both have to be vulnerable in this area.

1208
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 1: But don't look at the Latter day Saint as an enemy.

1209
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping too if there's a Latter day Saint listening,

1210
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 1: don't look at us as the enemy. We're merely telling

1211
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 1: you what your church has said. If you have a

1212
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 1: problem with it, it's not really a problem with us,

1213
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:58,360
Speaker 1: it's a problem with the church. I've often asked Latter

1214
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: day Saints does it on God to believe something that's

1215
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: not true?

1216
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:04,439
Speaker 2: Great question.

1217
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 1: They have to think about it, but eventually they'll say no,

1218
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 1: I don't believe it honors God to believe something that's

1219
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 1: not true. And then my next question is, well, how

1220
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 1: would you know if you are believing something that's not true. Well,

1221
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 1: with us, it's always about evidence. It's difficult for a

1222
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:23,080
Speaker 1: Latter day Saint because it's so subjective. But if I

1223
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 1: were to present a case showing some major conflicts between

1224
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith, what the Bible says or even historical issues.

1225
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:35,320
Speaker 1: I would hope if the Latter day Saint really believes

1226
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't honor God to believe something that's not true,

1227
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 1: that they would see I've pointed out a think a

1228
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 1: lot of things that their church is teaching that's not true.

1229
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 1: What are you going to do about that if you

1230
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,679
Speaker 1: don't think it honors God? I would think the next

1231
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:52,639
Speaker 1: step is you need to do something like maybe get

1232
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 1: out of the Mormon Church. Maybe help your friends get

1233
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 1: out of the Mormon Church. You're gonna have to repent

1234
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:01,599
Speaker 1: and ask God to forgive you for believing a lot

1235
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:04,519
Speaker 1: of the errors that Joseph Smith and all those that

1236
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:06,679
Speaker 1: came after him have been teaching their people.

1237
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 2: And of course God is eager and willing to forgive

1238
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:14,759
Speaker 2: their sins, as it does in one John one point nine.

1239
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:18,759
Speaker 2: He is faithful and will forgive those who ask without

1240
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:22,600
Speaker 2: any you know, holding back whatsoever. You don't have to

1241
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:26,240
Speaker 2: earn it, just ask and God has grace for you.

1242
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 2: That's what the Bible teaches about God's grace because it

1243
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:32,840
Speaker 2: stems from the character of the God who separates our

1244
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:35,839
Speaker 2: sins as far as the East is from the west,

1245
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:38,600
Speaker 2: as described in the Old Testament, and we see the

1246
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,439
Speaker 2: compassion of that God in the person and character of

1247
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:47,680
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, especially towards those who've been manipulated or marginalized

1248
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 2: or hurt in some fashion. Bill, I send people all

1249
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:56,760
Speaker 2: the time to MRM dot org, the podcast, the articles.

1250
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 2: You guys have a heart for members of the Church

1251
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 2: of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and you do

1252
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:05,639
Speaker 2: great scholarship as well, so it is always my go

1253
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 2: to resource for people. MRM dot org and I co

1254
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:13,160
Speaker 2: edit a book with one of your colleagues, Eric Johnson.

1255
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,719
Speaker 2: Some people don't know this. It's called Sharing the Good

1256
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 2: News with Mormons, and it's a compilation of different approaches

1257
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,639
Speaker 2: to reach out to members of the Church of Jesus

1258
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 2: Christ of Latter day Saints. Folks, before you click away,

1259
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 2: make sure you hit subscribe. This is a topic we're

1260
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:31,760
Speaker 2: going to come back to. And if there's something else

1261
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 2: specifically on this topic you want Bill and I to

1262
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,680
Speaker 2: cover or me to cover as it relates to Mormonism,

1263
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 2: comment below and let us know. We'd love to have

1264
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,559
Speaker 2: you come study with us. At biol University. We do

1265
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:49,480
Speaker 2: full courses on world religions and full weekends on Mormonism

1266
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 2: to educate and train you. We've got information below that

1267
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:56,560
Speaker 2: the top rated masters program in apologetics. If you're not

1268
01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:58,840
Speaker 2: ready for Masters, but you're like I want some training,

1269
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:02,559
Speaker 2: we have a totally data certificate program where we will

1270
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 2: walk you through some lectures, give you some basic assignments

1271
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 2: to learn apologetics from some of the top apologists in

1272
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:13,760
Speaker 2: the world. There's a big discount below. Bill. Thanks for

1273
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 2: all your work, Thanks for coming on. Really enjoyed this conversation.

1274
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:20,320
Speaker 1: It's my pleasure. Shawn. Thank you for those kind words.

1275
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 1: They mean a lot to us. And just pray for

1276
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: you and your ministry, and do pray for members of

1277
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:27,960
Speaker 1: the LDS Church.

1278
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 2: Thanks brother, Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please

1279
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 2: hit that fall button on your podcast app. Most of

1280
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:37,360
Speaker 2: you tuning in haven't done this yet and it makes

1281
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 2: a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more

1282
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 2: people and Bill community, and please consider leaving a podcast review.

1283
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 2: Every review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

1284
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1285
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:55,720
Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

1286
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:59,040
Speaker 2: spiritual information, marriage and family Bible, and so much more.

1287
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 2: We would love to train you to more effectively, live, teach,

1288
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today, and we will see

1289
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:06,880
Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops.

1290
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:10,400
Speaker 1: Hm, HM