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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think the Book of Enoch has become

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Speaker 2: such a phenomenon online? Why are Christians just fascinated by

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Speaker 2: this book?

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Speaker 1: What the Book of Enoch provides potentially, and this is debated.

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Speaker 1: is it starts to provide some fill-in-the-blank dots for aspects

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Speaker 1: of the biblical text that feel like have been overlooked.

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Speaker 1: And then you start to wonder, was this intentional? How

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Speaker 1: come nobody ever talked about the Nephilim? How come we

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Speaker 1: just go Genesis 6, 1 through 4, goes right into

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Speaker 1: the flood narrative, but we don't really get an explanatory

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Speaker 1: rationale behind there's just evil in the world, and so

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Speaker 1: that necessitates the flood. There are these pieces of the

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Speaker 1: biblical text that the longer you go david and goliath

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Speaker 1: was not an actual giant was he not what does

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Speaker 1: it mean the giant dead glad came from gath what's

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Speaker 1: going on joshua like we could just go on and

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Speaker 1: on so.

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Speaker 2: Part of the question is does first enoch fill in

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Speaker 2: some gaps in a way we can trust or is

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Speaker 2: it purely fiction or some combination of two we will

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Speaker 2: get there and get your take on it The book

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Speaker 2: of Enoch has exploded in popularity. Some people claim it

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Speaker 2: unlocks the Bible's greatest mysteries, while others say it shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be trusted at all. So what's the truth? Today we're

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Speaker 2: diving into one of the most controversial ancient books arguably

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Speaker 2: ever written. Does it really explain the origin of demons?

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Speaker 2: Can it help us understand the mysterious story of the

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Speaker 2: Nephilim in Genesis? Or does it raise more questions than

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Speaker 2: it answers? Back for the third time, by the way.

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Speaker 2: is Dr. Joel Mudimali, author of The Unseen Battle. You're

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Speaker 2: a friend, protege of Dr. Michael Heiser. We talked about

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Speaker 2: that before, who really has helped spark a lot of

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Speaker 2: the interest in the book of Enoch and the Unseen Realm. Joel,

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Speaker 2: I've wanted to talk about this topic for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Sean. I'm really excited. This is

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Speaker 1: the one topic, Sean, by the way, that I don't

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Speaker 1: think I've had an in-depth conversation with on any other podcast.

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Speaker 1: Not in-depth like what we're about to do. So I'm

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Speaker 1: excited for this one.

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Speaker 2: Good. Well, we're diving in. And by the way, we

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Speaker 2: just had a video we did on Angels and Demons,

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Speaker 2: Your Work, Unseen Battle, and Heiser. We're going on Book

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Speaker 2: of Enoch. We're going to be going live soon on

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Speaker 2: a Talbot Tuesday to take questions. So if people have

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Speaker 2: questions from this, write in question in caps, list your questions,

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Speaker 2: and we'll take as many as we can with that

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Speaker 2: episode coming up.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think the Book of Enoch has become

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Speaker 2: such a phenomenon online? Why are Christians just fascinated by

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Speaker 2: this book?

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Speaker 1: I think part of this is the nature of social media.

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Speaker 1: I think the clippable content that has viral capacity and

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Speaker 1: capability is absolutely fascinating. I also think that what the

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Speaker 1: Book of Enoch provides potentially, and this is debated, is

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Speaker 1: it starts to provide some fill-in-the-blank dots for aspects of

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Speaker 1: the biblical text that feel like have been overlooked or neglected.

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Speaker 1: And then you start to wonder, was this intentional? How

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Speaker 1: come nobody ever talked about the Nephilim? How come we

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Speaker 1: just go Genesis 6, 1 through 4, goes right into

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Speaker 1: the flood narrative, but we don't really get an explanatory

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Speaker 1: rationale behind there's just evil in the world, and so

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Speaker 1: that necessitates the flood? What do we do with angels

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Speaker 1: and demons? And why does Paul use language like powers

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Speaker 1: and principalities? I mean, there are these pieces of the

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Speaker 1: biblical text that the longer you go, David and Goliath,

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Speaker 1: was Goliath an actual giant? Was he not? What does

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Speaker 1: it mean that Goliath came from Gath? What's going on

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Speaker 1: with Joshua and the conch? We could just go on

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Speaker 1: and on. And for me, I grew up in the church.

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Speaker 1: So I would start to wonder, are they holding something

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Speaker 1: back from me? Is there explanatory power here?

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Speaker 2: Or.

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Speaker 1: Are we just supposed to have blind faith that the

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Speaker 1: Bible just says what it says, so just believe it?

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Speaker 1: And I think what Enoch does is it is ancient.

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Speaker 1: It's an ancient text. So that draw for tradition and

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Speaker 1: something that is beyond just the modern conception, I think,

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Speaker 1: is appealing to many people. And then also, Sean, I think,

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Speaker 1: and this is maybe a wild take on my part,

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Speaker 1: we're spiritual beings. Like, God created us to consider and

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Speaker 1: to be drawn to the cosmic reality of the world.

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Speaker 1: And so— In the way that Lewis famously talked about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the desire of the human heart to have

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Speaker 1: a longing and love for God, I think there's a

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Speaker 1: desire in the human heart to want to connect to

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Speaker 1: a spirituality that is beyond an earthly existence and to wonder,

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Speaker 1: could it be true? We know that that can go

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Speaker 1: sideways very quickly. And so for Christians, I think they go,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, does Enoch give some explanatory power to

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Speaker 1: these questions I've been wondering about that it feels like

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Speaker 1: maybe people haven't talked about?

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Speaker 2: The idea that we have a book that can fill

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Speaker 2: in the gaps of information we don't have is obviously

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Speaker 2: nothing new. We have books about the infancy gospel of Jesus,

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Speaker 2: what he was— of Thomas, like what Jesus was like when

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Speaker 2: he was a kid. Yes. We have the stories of

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Speaker 2: the apostles going out in these apocryphal texts. So part

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Speaker 2: of the question is, does 1 Enoch fill in some

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Speaker 2: gaps in a way we can trust, or is it

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Speaker 2: purely fiction or some combination of the two? We will

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Speaker 2: get there and get your take on it, but for people—

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Speaker 2: who have heard the name but know very little about it,

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Speaker 2: what is 1 Enoch and what kind of literature is it?

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I love your precision with the

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Speaker 1: titling of this. Many people notice that you have been

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Speaker 1: saying 1 Enoch consistently. It is popular in modern vernacular

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Speaker 1: to just talk about the book of Enoch or to

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Speaker 1: just say Enoch. One of the things that I care about,

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Speaker 1: you care about, is what are we exactly talking about?

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Speaker 1: So Enoch can be split up into three actually distinct books.

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Speaker 1: The one that, for our conversation, that we want to

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Speaker 1: pay attention to is 1 Enoch, and 1 Enoch itself

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Speaker 1: is split up into five distinct categories. And so Enoch is,

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Speaker 1: and 1 Enoch is referred to as the Book of

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Speaker 1: the Watchers. So you've got this idea, and when you

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Speaker 1: think about the Watchers, this actually isn't an idea that

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Speaker 1: is separate from the biblical text. In the previous episode

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Speaker 1: that we talked about about angels and demons. We talked

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Speaker 1: about categories of spiritual beings. And in fact, watchers are

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Speaker 1: a category. This is what Daniel 4.13 says. So the

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Speaker 1: Aramaic text of Daniel actually uses the term watcher ear.

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Speaker 1: I'll just read it in Daniel 4.13. It says, So

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Speaker 1: Daniel 4 actually places this watcher language in the cosmic

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Speaker 1: supernatural context that we actually see in Enoch. So there's

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Speaker 1: a connection that it's doing. The other thing that we

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Speaker 1: have to remind ourselves with is that Enoch is literature.

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Speaker 1: First Enoch is literature. And, you know, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: the popular saying, Sean, I will kind of comment to people,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Bible isn't a book, right? And people

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Speaker 1: are like, wait a minute, of course it's a book.

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Speaker 1: It's got a front cover, a back cover, a table

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Speaker 1: of contents. It's like, no, the Bible is a library

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Speaker 1: of books. And within this library, there's different genre. You've

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Speaker 1: got history, poetic, you know, revelatory information. You've got books

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Speaker 1: that shift from song to historical narrative. Well, the kind

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Speaker 1: of literature of 1 Enoch is referred to as apocalyptic literature.

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Speaker 1: The English word for this, apocalyptic, comes from the Greek

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Speaker 1: word apocalypsis. And we think like gloomy– I know you're

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Speaker 1: a Marvel guy, so I think of Apocalypse from X-Men.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like doomsday kind of situation. The Greek

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Speaker 1: term has in mind a revealing. So if I were

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Speaker 1: to be like a magician and put this up right

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Speaker 1: here and put a cloth over it, right? it would

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Speaker 1: be like, watch the apocalypse, the revelation. This has already

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Speaker 1: been there, but it has not been seen. So then

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Speaker 1: you pull it off and you reveal what's actually taking place.

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Speaker 1: And so this is apocalyptic literature that has a discussion

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Speaker 1: of the cosmic realm, the relationship between heaven and earth.

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Speaker 1: It has in mind the consequence of sin and how

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Speaker 1: sin has impacted the earth in a negative way. And

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Speaker 1: it has in mind the question of judgment, a final judgment.

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Speaker 1: And The enigmatic figure of the Holy One who does

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Speaker 1: the judging and how spiritual beings are relating in light

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Speaker 1: of all of that.

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Speaker 2: So biblically speaking, you said the Bible, it's a library book,

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Speaker 2: 66 books, there's history, there's poetry. apocalyptic literature, the Old

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Speaker 2: Testament would be Daniel, New Testament would be Revelation. So

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Speaker 2: it's that kind of literature, so to speak. Not canonical,

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Speaker 2: of course.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we can get into that for sure. I think

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Speaker 1: that's a big topic of conversation. It is. And in

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Speaker 1: the social media world, it is highly debated amongst some Christians,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's a fascinating discussion in itself. But yes,

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Speaker 1: it is non-canonical. It is not part of You're not

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Speaker 1: going to open up your Bible and look and see,

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Speaker 1: find 1 Enoch, unless you're part of the Ethiopic tradition.

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Speaker 1: And the Ethiopic Bible, Ethiopian Bible, they did canonize Enoch.

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Speaker 1: And so there is a tradition, I believe it's like

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Speaker 1: the Gaz translation, that did see the value in it

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Speaker 1: and canonized it. So outside of that, it is not

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Speaker 1: considered canonical.

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Speaker 2: So when was it written and do we know who

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Speaker 2: likely wrote it? I know these are all debated as well.

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Speaker 2: Give us a sense of some of the debate.

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Speaker 1: OK, so this is very highly debated. The first thing

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Speaker 1: is I want to break down a couple misnomers that

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Speaker 1: end up happening with ancient literature. One is the presumption

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Speaker 1: that our modern categories can conflate and lay on to

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Speaker 1: ancient literature the exact same way. They don't. And so

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Speaker 1: I want us to push to try to understand the

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Speaker 1: ancient literature in their own terms. Same thing with the Bible.

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Speaker 1: We want to understand the Bible in their own terms.

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Speaker 2: It's very high series. of you to quote Heiser, but

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Speaker 2: keep going.

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Speaker 1: That's good. Okay, so when was it written? Who wrote it?

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Speaker 1: We would say scholars, specialists in Second Temple literature would

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Speaker 1: say that First Enoch is actually a composite work. So

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Speaker 1: we've got five distinct narrative structures within the Book of

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Speaker 1: the Watchers. Dating is is so difficult to try to navigate.

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Speaker 1: And you will open up Lauren Stuckenbrook or Susan Dougherty

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Speaker 1: or Vanderkam, all these specialists, scholars, specialists in the Enochian

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Speaker 1: tradition and Second Temple literature, and you'll actually notice... a

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Speaker 1: bit of variety in terms of when something was written,

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Speaker 1: which fragment we're talking about, which section that we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of a general idea, we could say

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Speaker 1: that the Book of Watchers took its final form and

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Speaker 1: shape somewhere around the second century, maybe even extending into

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Speaker 1: the third century.

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Speaker 2: B.C., A.D.

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Speaker 1: B.C., yeah. So very little is known about about the authors.

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Speaker 1: And notice I say plural, the authors. Very likely that

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Speaker 1: Enoch and even the significant sections, the five subsections of

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Speaker 1: the Book of Watchers, was written by multiple authors. Nichols Berg,

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Speaker 1: who's an Enochic specialist, points out, I kind of love

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Speaker 1: his language, I'm going to quote him, he says, there

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Speaker 1: are cautious inferences that we can make about the the

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Speaker 1: type of person that wrote this. And so I'm jumping

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Speaker 1: a little bit around the place, but you will also

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Speaker 1: know that Enoch is categorically referred to as part of

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Speaker 1: the pseudepigraphical work. So pseudepigrapha comes from the pseudo, which

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Speaker 1: means false, and then epigraphical work, written work. What this

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Speaker 1: could mean for people is this is false writing or

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Speaker 1: a false author. And we, again, take a modern conception

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Speaker 1: and we think this is a literary forgery. That is

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Speaker 1: not what the Book of Enoch is. First, Enoch. Enoch

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Speaker 1: would not fall in the category of literary forgeries in

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Speaker 1: that time period. There were literary forgeries, absolutely, but First,

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Speaker 1: Enoch is actually a stylized way of writing that is

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Speaker 1: a category called a pseudepigraphical work, and the goal was

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Speaker 1: anonymity of the actual authors, and they use a strategy

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Speaker 1: to name the work after a biblical historical figure. And

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Speaker 1: I believe it was Lawrence Duckenbrook who has a great

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Speaker 1: book on Second Temple literature and Enoch, and he kind

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Speaker 1: of gives 12 examples for why this might happen. The

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Speaker 1: one for me that makes the most sense is, and again,

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Speaker 1: different opinions, is you have the famous library in Alexandria.

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Speaker 1: In order to get any spotlight, for a book to

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Speaker 1: get spotlight, it's going to have to have some authoritative

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Speaker 1: nature behind it, you know? And so it might be

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Speaker 1: that one of the reasons why we've got this Enochic

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Speaker 1: figure here and it's attributed to him is so that

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Speaker 1: there is.

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Speaker 1: Novelty and some authority as well that's put behind it.

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Speaker 1: And so Carson has a book called Pseudonymity and Pseudepigraphy,

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Speaker 1: and he kind of works through the difference between the

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Speaker 1: literary forgery and what's actually happening with the Book of

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Speaker 1: Enoch as a category of pseudepigraphical writing that doesn't demand

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Speaker 1: for us to throw it out because we would presume

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Speaker 1: that it's a of the work as it's being written

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Speaker 1: in the second temple period.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't in the second temple period when it

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Speaker 2: comes out. It wasn't thought like, oh my goodness, we

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Speaker 2: discovered this secret book that was written by Enoch however

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Speaker 2: many thousands of years before. That was not how it

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Speaker 2: was supposed to land. It was understood that there's a

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Speaker 2: different writer to it, but it's attributed to Enoch.

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Speaker 1: As a strategy.

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Speaker 2: As a strategy. Okay, so remind us real quickly who

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Speaker 2: is the biblical figure of Enoch, and if there's any

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Speaker 2: other connection we should be aware of to the book itself.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so once again, some of this stuff is like,

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Speaker 1: it's going to paint a little bit of a picture

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Speaker 1: of the caution that we want to have with Enoch.

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Speaker 1: Very little is given to us about the biblical Enoch.

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Speaker 1: That's true. There is a sentence, though, from Genesis 5.24

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Speaker 1: that gives us insight into Second Temple interpretations of what

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Speaker 1: could have taken place and why Enoch was chosen as

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Speaker 1: the name figure for the delivering of this literature. And

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Speaker 1: it's Genesis 5.24, it says, Enoch walked with God and

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Speaker 1: he was not, for God took him. So the Jewish

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Speaker 1: thinking about Enoch seems to have been also influenced by

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Speaker 1: the ancient Near Eastern mythology that was also present at

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Speaker 1: that time. So remember that the Jewish people are a

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Speaker 1: part of their time, that there is competing ancient Near

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Speaker 1: Eastern myths that are taking place. This is a big

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Speaker 1: point when we get into the Genesis 6 and the

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Speaker 1: Enoch connection point, if we're to have pillars. of conversation.

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Speaker 1: Genesis 6 is one pillar of literary content. Enoch is

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Speaker 1: another pillar of literary content, but there's a third pillar

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Speaker 1: of literary content. That third pillar of literary content is

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Speaker 1: the Mesopotamian literature, the ancient Near Eastern context and the

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Speaker 1: mythos of that time period. What Enoch is doing is

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Speaker 1: it's actually drawing sentence for sentence, word for word, thematic

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Speaker 1: idea of both the Genesis 6 tradition that's shared with

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Speaker 1: the Mesopotamian tradition, particularly the story of the Apokaloo. And

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Speaker 1: so when you get back to the biblical Enoch and

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Speaker 1: how Second Temple writers were— I don't want to say reimagining,

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Speaker 1: but they were drawing on this figure. There's a hero

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Speaker 1: of the Mesopotamian flood narrative, Atrasus, for instance, and there

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Speaker 1: is a connection with the flood and the deluge. And

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Speaker 1: so my view— is we have a work of polemic

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Speaker 1: in front of us. It is an argument against the

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Speaker 1: creation myths of the ancient Near Eastern worldview, and it's

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Speaker 1: a reorientation to the ideal of God and to the

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Speaker 1: one true story.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you might have answered my next question in

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Speaker 2: terms of how widely was this read, how widely was

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Speaker 2: this known, and do we have a sense of how

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Speaker 2: early Jews and or Christians took 1 Enoch?

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Speaker 1: So 1 Enoch definitely had value in the Kerman community.

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Speaker 1: So the Kerman community is the society where the Dead

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Speaker 1: Sea Scrolls were found. You've got within the Kaman community,

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Speaker 1: the Essenes. It just was popular apocalyptic literature.

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Speaker 2: Very strict Jewish community at that time.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So, you know, specialists in the Jewish tradition would

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Speaker 1: point out that there was no monolithic Jewish tradition. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't just You had streams of Jewish thought. Even today,

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Speaker 1: we have that as Christians, right? You can have a

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Speaker 1: stream that is denominationally more conservative, more liberal. You have

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Speaker 1: even theologically, doctrinally oriented. So we have streams of Christian thought.

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Speaker 1: It actually gives a little bit of anchoring, like, If

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Speaker 1: you're just like, hey, I come from a charismatic Pentecostal tradition,

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Speaker 1: you start to fill in your brain with information about

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Speaker 1: that or from a Reformed tradition or a Calvinist or

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Speaker 1: an Arminian tradition. You go, oh, yeah, I can start

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Speaker 1: to fill in the dots. The same thing is happening

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Speaker 1: in the Qumran community and something to remember.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: This is something that Heiser actually said that I thought

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, this is kind of fascinating. The Essenes

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Speaker 1: in the Cremant community were not liberals. They were actually

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Speaker 1: probably like extreme conservatives.

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Speaker 2: The opposite, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Like we might call them fundamentalists. Like they were super–

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Speaker 1: they thought that the Pharisees and Sadducees were a bit

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Speaker 1: too liberal. So like, whoa, you know? And it was

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Speaker 1: this community that held– First Enoch in high regard as

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Speaker 1: apocalyptic literature. Now, fascinating detail. One of the reasons we

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Speaker 1: know this is because in the Dead Sea Scrolls, one

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Speaker 1: document that was found, it's 4Q180 and 181 for any

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Speaker 1: nerd out there who wants to go and actually find

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Speaker 1: the document. A thing called a pesher was written about

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Speaker 1: First Enoch. Now, a pesher is a document that is

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Speaker 1: essentially in the same category that we would call today

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Speaker 1: a commentary. It is an interpretation of a text. More

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Speaker 1: often than not, it is a canonized biblical text, like

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Speaker 1: the Hebrew Bible, that would be present. So to have

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Speaker 1: a pesher... On 1 Enoch, starts to build a conceptual

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Speaker 1: framework that says amongst at least this stream of thought,

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Speaker 1: not every stream of thought, but at least amongst this

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Speaker 1: stream of thought, 1 Enoch was important enough for somebody

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Speaker 1: to put together a pesher, an interpretation of what is

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Speaker 1: taking place. So pesherim are texts that interpret other texts. Um, okay. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Before you go to the next point. So that's like

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Speaker 2: a biblical commentary that you typically would only do on

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Speaker 2: a book you hold in such high regard. And we

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Speaker 2: could have a commentary and say the gospel of Thomas,

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Speaker 2: but that'd be a very nuanced scholarly commentary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. In the ancient world, we're talking about Hebrew texts

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Speaker 1: or like the Hebrew community, the Jewish community that was

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Speaker 1: writing interpretive content based off of what they viewed as scripture.

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Speaker 1: So you would not find a pesher for that.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, that makes total sense. A qualitative difference between, say,

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Speaker 2: Gospel of Thomas and 1st Enoch. So I guess it's

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Speaker 2: hard to... know when we're getting in the weeds. It's

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Speaker 2: one thing to say we value a text because it's interesting. Like,

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Speaker 2: for example, the apocryphal books of Acts I studied because

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Speaker 2: of my work on the apostles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They have value, but everybody knew that they were fiction.

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Speaker 2: And they were just kind of almost pieces of entertainment

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Speaker 2: on some ways about these fanciful tales of the apostles.

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Speaker 2: So the value doesn't mean you would have thought they

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Speaker 2: were historically true in their entirety. You're saying this pester

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Speaker 2: suggests that they not only valued it, but thought there

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Speaker 2: was some more truth to this akin to a biblical book.

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Speaker 2: So at least we have some in Crumeron that likely

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Speaker 2: took it early as a not only a kind of

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Speaker 2: a reliable, but authoritative text. That's the kind of argument

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Speaker 2: if I'm tracking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I, I, I, you know, my nightmares, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to know what my nightmares are shot. My

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Speaker 1: nightmares are, are, uh, being misunderstood and misrepresented on social media.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not fun.

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Speaker 1: Not right. I'm like, oh, I've kind of set myself

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Speaker 1: up a little bit for that. So I actually wrote

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Speaker 1: down how I want to summarize this so people can

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Speaker 1: understand where I'm coming at. So this is how I

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Speaker 1: would want to summarize everything we just talked about. What

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Speaker 1: is the impact of First Enoch on the Qumran community,

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Speaker 1: the Essenes, and a tradition of this community? We would

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Speaker 1: say that this tradition of community highly respected 1 Enoch

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Speaker 1: and possibly even viewed it as scripture. I'm hedging my

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Speaker 1: bet here a little bit. That's fair. Yeah. But the

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Speaker 1: point is the fact that the Enochic texts were found

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Speaker 1: at Qumran, I believe it's Caves 1 and 4, might

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Speaker 1: be 1 and 3, gives us evidence that they were used,

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Speaker 1: they were accessed, they were distributed well. at least in

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Speaker 1: the Judean hill country of where the Qumran community resided. Now,

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Speaker 1: we can get into the Christian usage, the first century

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Speaker 1: church usage as well. There's a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: bridge that gets us there, which is the fact that Jude,

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Speaker 1: 1 Peter, and 2 Peter all allude, or at least quote,

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Speaker 1: the Enochian tradition, which as Christians puts a little bit

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Speaker 1: more of an intentional consideration— that we need to wrestle with.

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Speaker 2: You've been very careful and judicious with your words, which

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Speaker 2: I appreciate. Now, we're going to come to how the

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Speaker 2: New Testament uses it and what that would mean for

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Speaker 2: 1 Enoch. But we've done three interviews before this. We

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Speaker 2: had the live stream. Oh, yeah. You did the one

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Speaker 2: on angels and demons. Our very first interview on your book,

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Speaker 2: The Unseen Battle. I got a question back that somebody

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Speaker 2: emailed me, and here's what they wrote, because this ties

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Speaker 2: to how Heiser helped bring 1 Enoch into– mainstream evangelical discussion.

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Speaker 2: This person said, thanks for the episode with Joel Mudimali.

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Speaker 2: Really enjoyed it. My biggest critical point is how heavily Dr.

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Speaker 2: Heiser relies on 1 Enoch and acknowledges that it isn't scripture,

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Speaker 2: but treats it almost with the same authority. 1 Enoch

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Speaker 2: is an apocalyptic text written hundreds of years after Genesis

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Speaker 2: and So given it interpretive authority suggesting that the community

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Speaker 2: that produced 1 Enoch somehow had special access to the

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Speaker 2: original meaning of Genesis 6, especially written in apocalyptic genre,

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Speaker 2: involves a methodological assumption that is worth questioning. Partly, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, where do you agree and disagree with Heiser?

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Speaker 2: And do you agree with this email that it's at

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Speaker 2: least worth questioning? Give us your response.

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Speaker 1: I think, one, I think this was like a class

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Speaker 1: act in question asking that is thoughtful, charitable, but critiquing.

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Speaker 1: And to the point. And to the point.

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Speaker 2: Not six pages of text I did sometimes. So kudos.

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Speaker 1: We should teach a class on this. In fact, we

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Speaker 1: should teach everybody who does social media comments about this

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Speaker 1: right here because that would make the world a better place.

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Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, absolutely. It requires us to question

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Speaker 1: the methodological kind of assumptions. I'm not Mike. I can't

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Speaker 1: speak for him. I wish he was here to be

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Speaker 1: able to answer this question. I believe that he would

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Speaker 1: have a coherent answer or at least response to this.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to tap into my inner Mike the

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Speaker 1: best that I can. And the good news is that

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Speaker 1: Mike wrote a lot, and there's so many interviews that

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Speaker 1: are out there that you may be able to find

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Speaker 1: some clarification on this. But I would say that your

427
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,179
Speaker 1: instinct for the person who wrote this, the instinct to

428
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: question the methodological emphasis on First Enoch as an authoritative,

429
00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 1: interpretive resource is valid. I would push back and ask

430
00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:31,899
Speaker 1: another point of consideration, and it goes back to what

431
00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:35,530
Speaker 1: I said earlier. what if part of the authoritative nature

432
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:39,020
Speaker 1: of this is less about Enoch in isolation, but more

433
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,100
Speaker 1: about the representative literary framework that it puts in front

434
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: of us, that is a retrieval of the Mesopotamian ancient

435
00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:53,110
Speaker 1: Near Eastern context that was presumed in the Genesis 6 narrative.

436
00:24:54,150 --> 00:24:58,409
Speaker 1: So I think 1 Enoch, I know 1 Enoch. I

437
00:24:58,450 --> 00:25:00,990
Speaker 1: believe 1 Enoch. What do I want to say? I

438
00:25:01,030 --> 00:25:03,300
Speaker 1: believe 1 Enoch. I think it's the right phrase. I

439
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,300
Speaker 1: believe 1 Enoch is doing three things. I believe 1

440
00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: Enoch is preserving a oral tradition that was representative of

441
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,730
Speaker 1: the time frame of Genesis 6. Absolutely, 1 Enoch was

442
00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:20,350
Speaker 1: written well after Genesis. I still go back to the

443
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:22,340
Speaker 1: first interview that we did. and there was a clip

444
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,820
Speaker 1: that was posted, and there was a famous historical, and

445
00:25:25,859 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: he critiqued something I said. I was like, that's a

446
00:25:28,140 --> 00:25:31,940
Speaker 1: good critique. I really appreciate that. Because the misunderstanding could be,

447
00:25:32,380 --> 00:25:35,660
Speaker 1: I'm saying that 1 Enoch provides on its own background

448
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,780
Speaker 1: context to Genesis 6, but how could 1 Enoch provide

449
00:25:38,859 --> 00:25:43,100
Speaker 1: context to Genesis 6 when it's written way after Genesis 6?

450
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:46,340
Speaker 1: And my response to that is, it's less about providing

451
00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: background context and more about re-presenting to us an oral

452
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:58,129
Speaker 1: tradition and a literary framework that Enoch keeps preserved for us.

453
00:25:58,530 --> 00:26:02,170
Speaker 1: So Enoch is doing three things. It is preserving a

454
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,340
Speaker 1: a Kalu Mesopotamian story of a delusion, a flood. If

455
00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:10,859
Speaker 1: you were to take verse for verse, Genesis 6, 1

456
00:26:10,859 --> 00:26:13,780
Speaker 1: through 4, and then you took the Kalu narrative of

457
00:26:13,820 --> 00:26:17,860
Speaker 1: the new militia, the Mesopotamian mythic story, and then you

458
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: take the Enochic story of the Book of the Watchers,

459
00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:25,489
Speaker 1: and you lined them up, they have all correlation with

460
00:26:25,530 --> 00:26:28,590
Speaker 1: each other. They're all hyperlinking back together. The difference is

461
00:26:28,609 --> 00:26:33,710
Speaker 1: Genesis 6 and the Enochic tradition are critiquing the Mesopotamian

462
00:26:33,869 --> 00:26:36,310
Speaker 1: mythic story. And the reason why they're critiquing it is

463
00:26:36,650 --> 00:26:39,629
Speaker 1: because in the Mesopotamian story, the Apokaloo are good guys.

464
00:26:40,650 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: The Apokaloo are like these culture heroes. They're these people

465
00:26:43,859 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: that are saving humanity. They're being framed as positive beings

466
00:26:48,540 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: that are for the good of humanity. Whereas Genesis 6

467
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,010
Speaker 1: and the Naka tradition are saying, hey, don't be deceived.

468
00:26:55,630 --> 00:26:59,780
Speaker 1: Those folks or those types of spiritual beings, they're not

469
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: after your good. They're actually after your destruction. And so

470
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: you should care deeply about that. And so I would

471
00:27:05,859 --> 00:27:11,300
Speaker 1: say that if you interject the Mesopotamian context that first

472
00:27:11,380 --> 00:27:15,949
Speaker 1: Enoch is retrieving, preserving, and now transmitting to us. Those

473
00:27:15,970 --> 00:27:18,670
Speaker 1: are the three things. It's retrieving a story. It's preserving

474
00:27:18,690 --> 00:27:21,090
Speaker 1: that story. And now it's transmitting that story to us.

475
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: it then gives more authoritative interpretive evidence for what's taking

476
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,379
Speaker 1: place with Genesis 6.

477
00:27:28,380 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: Now, this might lead us astray, but I would want

478
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,780
Speaker 2: to see some of the historical case lined up for

479
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,890
Speaker 2: the existence of that oral tradition to be convinced of this.

480
00:27:39,970 --> 00:27:43,109
Speaker 2: And maybe it's just the way you described it. It's

481
00:27:43,150 --> 00:27:46,070
Speaker 2: just comparing the text the way we compare other texts.

482
00:27:46,570 --> 00:27:48,570
Speaker 2: Maybe there's other strains of this tradition.

483
00:27:48,590 --> 00:27:49,050
Speaker 1: I don't know.

484
00:27:49,090 --> 00:27:51,260
Speaker 2: Maybe someone's done that work. Maybe they haven't done that work.

485
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: Maybe that's a dissertation to be done. It would be fascinating.

486
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,780
Speaker 2: Even if somebody– and I don't know anything about Enochian

487
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,500
Speaker 2: tradition and research. But even if somebody came back and

488
00:28:00,540 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: said this is something we cannot ascertain historically, there's value

489
00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: in that. I conclude that about a few of the apostles.

490
00:28:07,540 --> 00:28:09,820
Speaker 2: I'm like we literally don't know where history ends and

491
00:28:09,859 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: tradition begins as far as I can tell. But that

492
00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:16,419
Speaker 2: feels like a very valuable piece of the contribution that

493
00:28:16,460 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 2: could make the case for Heiser and your case valid.

494
00:28:20,609 --> 00:28:23,310
Speaker 2: even stronger if it was potentially there. So if someone

495
00:28:23,330 --> 00:28:25,310
Speaker 2: who's watching this is aware of somebody who's done that

496
00:28:25,390 --> 00:28:27,270
Speaker 2: or tried to do that, write it in, put it

497
00:28:27,290 --> 00:28:29,060
Speaker 2: in the comments. We would love to pull that up.

498
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:30,899
Speaker 2: And if you have a case for it or against it,

499
00:28:30,930 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: we could get your take on that as well.

500
00:28:33,619 --> 00:28:33,820
Speaker 1: Okay.

501
00:28:34,260 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: So one of the big reasons people read 1 Enoch

502
00:28:36,980 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: is because of Genesis 6. So we talked about a

503
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: little bit in our last interview, we talked about some here.

504
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:45,700
Speaker 2: What are the major interpretations of Genesis 6, 1 through 4?

505
00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: What do you find most convincing and how does Enoch

506
00:28:48,380 --> 00:28:51,820
Speaker 2: play into Your interpretation.

507
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,260
Speaker 1: So I go through this in in in pretty detail in.

508
00:28:56,740 --> 00:28:57,180
Speaker 1: You do.

509
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,830
Speaker 2: You laid out. So maybe just kind of give us

510
00:28:58,870 --> 00:29:00,770
Speaker 2: the bullet point main ones. Yeah, I do.

511
00:29:00,910 --> 00:29:03,630
Speaker 1: I do want I want everybody to go look at it,

512
00:29:03,650 --> 00:29:06,030
Speaker 1: follow the footnotes, because I do one thing that Sean,

513
00:29:06,090 --> 00:29:08,340
Speaker 1: it's very important to me. is I want to represent

514
00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: the opposite position or an opposing position, not as a

515
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,820
Speaker 1: straw man, but as a steel man. Like I want

516
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,940
Speaker 1: to give it the best fair reading, um, that, that

517
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,390
Speaker 1: we possibly can. So, you know, you've got the, um,

518
00:29:19,630 --> 00:29:22,910
Speaker 1: the sethite view, uh, which is one of the popular ones. Um,

519
00:29:22,990 --> 00:29:27,070
Speaker 1: you've got a divinized ruler view, um, as well. And, uh,

520
00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:30,370
Speaker 1: then you have the supernatural reading view that these are

521
00:29:30,430 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: spiritual beings. So I opt for the spiritual beings, view.

522
00:29:34,990 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: The Sethite view, for me, there's a lot of things

523
00:29:40,460 --> 00:29:45,980
Speaker 1: about the Sethite view that are challenging, extremely challenging. One

524
00:29:46,030 --> 00:29:48,790
Speaker 1: of them is that Sethites are never referred to as

525
00:29:48,830 --> 00:29:55,530
Speaker 1: sons of God. There's a linguistic absence of connecting the

526
00:29:55,630 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: righteous line of Seth with the phrase sons of God,

527
00:29:59,780 --> 00:30:03,660
Speaker 1: that they are equal to the sons of God. The

528
00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: other problem that you have is the question about the

529
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,310
Speaker 1: daughters of Cain. How do we know that these women

530
00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:15,210
Speaker 1: are coming from the unholy, unrighteous line of Cain? We're

531
00:30:15,250 --> 00:30:20,410
Speaker 1: having to impose other traditions or other ideas into the text.

532
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:23,250
Speaker 1: Then the divinized ruler view, I think Meredith Klein is

533
00:30:23,270 --> 00:30:26,740
Speaker 1: the one who really popularized this, once again, I find

534
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,330
Speaker 1: that unconvincing, both for the human ruler view, but then

535
00:30:29,380 --> 00:30:31,950
Speaker 1: also the lack of the reference to the sons of God.

536
00:30:32,210 --> 00:30:34,530
Speaker 1: And then also the big one with the divinized ruler view,

537
00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:36,670
Speaker 1: and same with the Sethite view, how do you have

538
00:30:36,710 --> 00:30:41,530
Speaker 1: a human to human cohabitation equal the Nephilim, which are

539
00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:48,330
Speaker 1: translated in the Septuagint as giants, as these massive figures

540
00:30:48,550 --> 00:30:51,380
Speaker 1: that cause chaos and problems. So you have almost a

541
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,570
Speaker 1: genetic problem. kind of inconsistency or incongruency that takes place.

542
00:30:56,070 --> 00:30:59,470
Speaker 1: So the option that I opt for that the Enochic

543
00:30:59,570 --> 00:31:05,380
Speaker 1: view elaborates on is a spiritual being's view. And the

544
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: reason why is there's a hermeneutical method where you want

545
00:31:08,420 --> 00:31:10,460
Speaker 1: to take the clear reading of Scripture and you want

546
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: to apply that to the unclear reading of Scripture.

547
00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: Agreed.

548
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,250
Speaker 1: I want to actually apply that right here. What is

549
00:31:16,290 --> 00:31:19,590
Speaker 1: the clearest reading that we have of the Hebrew phrase

550
00:31:19,650 --> 00:31:23,590
Speaker 1: beneha elohim? In the context that it's used, the clearest

551
00:31:23,650 --> 00:31:27,310
Speaker 1: reading is Job 1 and Job 2. In both Job

552
00:31:27,310 --> 00:31:29,969
Speaker 1: 1 and Job 2, the Hebrew phrase B'neha Elohim is

553
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: used in reference to the sons of God who present

554
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,300
Speaker 1: themselves in the divine council of Yahweh where the Hasatan

555
00:31:36,620 --> 00:31:39,660
Speaker 1: shows up. In both passages, chapter 1 and chapter 2,

556
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: in the opening scene, you have their presence. But the

557
00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: real kingpin is Job 38. Because in Job 38, you

558
00:31:45,580 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: have the morning stars. They're shouting for joy with the

559
00:31:49,070 --> 00:31:52,530
Speaker 1: sons of God who are singing this exact same Hebrew phrase,

560
00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:55,250
Speaker 1: bene ha Elohim. Now, we're going to have to do

561
00:31:55,270 --> 00:31:58,390
Speaker 1: a lot of theological linguistic gymnastics in order to make

562
00:31:58,410 --> 00:32:01,330
Speaker 1: an argument that the sons of God in Job are

563
00:32:01,470 --> 00:32:05,150
Speaker 1: human beings. Then you're saying that there's a subset of

564
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:08,790
Speaker 1: human beings— that somehow got transported into the divine counsel

565
00:32:08,810 --> 00:32:11,190
Speaker 1: of God in Job 1 and 2. And so now

566
00:32:11,210 --> 00:32:14,370
Speaker 1: you've got a commingling of human beings and spiritual beings

567
00:32:14,590 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: where the Hasatan shows up. And then secondarily, in the beginning,

568
00:32:18,420 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: at the creation of all existence, right, there's a subset

569
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: of human beings. that were with the morning stars, that

570
00:32:27,860 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: gave witness to Yahweh creating. So you have some incoherence. Actually,

571
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,300
Speaker 1: not some. You have a significant incoherence. So if the

572
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: sons of God are clearly spiritual beings in Job 1

573
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,510
Speaker 1: and 2 and Job 38, then I want to take

574
00:32:43,550 --> 00:32:46,630
Speaker 1: the clear reading and say, well, what happens if we

575
00:32:46,650 --> 00:32:49,790
Speaker 1: allow the clear reading in this passage to be applied

576
00:32:49,910 --> 00:32:53,930
Speaker 1: in Genesis 6? It creates challenge. There's no doubt about it.

577
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:56,730
Speaker 1: But the challenge, I would argue, is less about the

578
00:32:56,770 --> 00:33:00,130
Speaker 1: coherence of the text and much more about our comfortability

579
00:33:00,170 --> 00:33:03,550
Speaker 1: with what the implications are. And so the coherence of

580
00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:07,110
Speaker 1: the text is, well, how do you have spiritual beings

581
00:33:07,710 --> 00:33:13,110
Speaker 1: who procreate with human women and then produce these hybrid beings?

582
00:33:13,150 --> 00:33:14,990
Speaker 1: This sounds like a scene out of the Greek mythology.

583
00:33:15,010 --> 00:33:17,150
Speaker 1: We talked about this a little bit in the angels piece, right?

584
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: But I would use the same rhetorical argument of how

585
00:33:21,340 --> 00:33:24,990
Speaker 1: do you have spiritual beings who walk and talk with Abraham?

586
00:33:25,010 --> 00:33:29,370
Speaker 1: How do you have spiritual beings that sit and eat

587
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:33,370
Speaker 1: with Abraham, which presumes that they take on corporeal form?

588
00:33:33,870 --> 00:33:37,610
Speaker 1: And in their corporeality, they then have a digestive system

589
00:33:37,790 --> 00:33:39,940
Speaker 1: in order to be able to eat. How do you

590
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: have spiritual beings with Lot where they can be recognized

591
00:33:44,140 --> 00:33:49,610
Speaker 1: when they walk into Sodom? They're recognized as masculine figures,

592
00:33:49,770 --> 00:33:52,870
Speaker 1: masculine beings, so much so that the men want to

593
00:33:52,910 --> 00:33:55,970
Speaker 1: do harm to them, want to assault them. But then

594
00:33:56,130 --> 00:34:00,170
Speaker 1: how do you have them grab Lot physical? There's a

595
00:34:00,210 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: physicality to it and drag him back into the room.

596
00:34:04,330 --> 00:34:08,990
Speaker 2: So you have examples— And then blind everybody with supernatural power, clearly.

597
00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:11,170
Speaker 1: Exactly. So it's not either or. It's a both and.

598
00:34:11,550 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: So all I'm saying is just because it's uncomfortable for

599
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: us to consider doesn't demand that it is not true.

600
00:34:21,820 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: It probably means our paradigms are being challenged. Now, the

601
00:34:24,060 --> 00:34:27,540
Speaker 1: most common response to this is, well, don't you know

602
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,390
Speaker 1: Jesus says that we'll be like the angels in heaven,

603
00:34:30,430 --> 00:34:33,230
Speaker 1: not given over to marriage? Notice what Jesus says and

604
00:34:33,250 --> 00:34:34,589
Speaker 1: what he doesn't say. This is one of the things

605
00:34:34,610 --> 00:34:37,430
Speaker 1: that Mike said that I thought was so winsome. Jesus

606
00:34:37,550 --> 00:34:41,950
Speaker 1: says they're not given over in marriage. He doesn't say

607
00:34:41,989 --> 00:34:47,510
Speaker 1: anything about their ability or inability of procreation or physicality.

608
00:34:47,530 --> 00:34:49,410
Speaker 2: That they're not sexed beings.

609
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:52,140
Speaker 1: Exactly. And here's the other huge one. Look at the

610
00:34:52,180 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: locale of these beings. In heaven. So in heaven is

611
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,509
Speaker 1: a location that is not consistent with on earth. So

612
00:35:02,590 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: it is possible that as part of the transgression of boundaries,

613
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,180
Speaker 1: there's an abdication of their spirituality or the nature of

614
00:35:10,219 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: what they have, and they take on a corporeal form,

615
00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: which is what makes it a different contextual situation for the–

616
00:35:19,250 --> 00:35:21,830
Speaker 1: we'll be like the angels in heaven versus what about

617
00:35:21,969 --> 00:35:25,410
Speaker 1: those angels that fell and went into rebellion on earth?

618
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:27,990
Speaker 2: Now, that's actually a really interesting point. I hadn't thought

619
00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:32,299
Speaker 2: about that because– We're pulling from the book of Genesis,

620
00:35:32,380 --> 00:35:36,860
Speaker 2: not from other biblical books, when we say that angels

621
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: took on corporeal form, or the spirit beings took on

622
00:35:39,980 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: corporeal form. See, look at you. I'm working on it.

623
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:48,420
Speaker 2: I'm working on it. That were recognized as male, ate food.

624
00:35:49,180 --> 00:35:52,860
Speaker 2: So that breaks down the barrier of sexual relations, at

625
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,230
Speaker 2: least being possible, although clearly twisted. The book of Genesis

626
00:35:57,270 --> 00:36:00,370
Speaker 2: kind of presents other parts of being corporeal that would

627
00:36:00,410 --> 00:36:04,009
Speaker 2: seem to lend towards that being possible. Our resistance to

628
00:36:04,030 --> 00:36:06,950
Speaker 2: that is probably right, that it's either weird or we

629
00:36:06,989 --> 00:36:09,739
Speaker 2: have a naturalistic understanding, which for those of us following

630
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,140
Speaker 2: the Bible, shouldn't be what motivates us.

631
00:36:12,660 --> 00:36:15,220
Speaker 1: And just really quickly, the Sodom and Gomorrah one is really,

632
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: really important because the argument could be made, well, you're

633
00:36:17,219 --> 00:36:20,700
Speaker 1: talking about a digestive system versus a reproductive system. Those

634
00:36:20,739 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: two things seem to be very different. Yes and no.

635
00:36:23,260 --> 00:36:26,060
Speaker 1: We're still talking about what makes humans humans, right? Like

636
00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:28,500
Speaker 1: what makes us interact with each other. But the Sodom

637
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:34,230
Speaker 1: and Gomorrah situation actually brings us into the sexual orientation

638
00:36:34,610 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: situation where there is– If that was not possible, why

639
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: would the spiritual beings blind the community that shows up

640
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:48,340
Speaker 1: at the house, right? So now it puts all of

641
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,950
Speaker 1: the context clues in place. You've got a gendered spiritual being,

642
00:36:54,250 --> 00:36:57,150
Speaker 1: the community is able to see them, you've got physicality

643
00:36:57,170 --> 00:37:00,250
Speaker 1: of touch where they grab Lot and pull him back in,

644
00:37:00,590 --> 00:37:04,050
Speaker 1: and you have a supernatural act of blinding that takes

645
00:37:04,150 --> 00:37:07,270
Speaker 1: place that categorically places these beings as not.

646
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,170
Speaker 2: Human and the evil ones want to sexually take advantage

647
00:37:12,190 --> 00:37:14,630
Speaker 2: of them like it moves it even one bar closer

648
00:37:14,810 --> 00:37:17,270
Speaker 2: arguably in terms of intent and.

649
00:37:17,190 --> 00:37:18,770
Speaker 1: Some might even argue in this kind of thought that

650
00:37:18,790 --> 00:37:20,910
Speaker 1: i have is that it's it's a it's a bit

651
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:23,029
Speaker 1: of a reflection of the genesis 6 narrative because in

652
00:37:23,050 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: the genesis 6 narrative it's the spiritual beings who want

653
00:37:25,300 --> 00:37:27,620
Speaker 1: to take the human women and so here in the

654
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: sodom and gomorrah you have an inversion of that you've

655
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,989
Speaker 1: got the humans that they're seeking after … and trying

656
00:37:33,050 --> 00:37:34,350
Speaker 1: to sexually assault.

657
00:37:34,370 --> 00:37:39,050
Speaker 2: That's how corrupted arguably they had become. That's a really

658
00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:39,689
Speaker 2: interesting connection.

659
00:37:39,730 --> 00:37:40,230
Speaker 1: Exactly.

660
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: That's fascinating. Okay, now what you're arguing is less controversial

661
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,780
Speaker 2: within the history of the church as far as I understand,

662
00:37:47,820 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 2: at least the first 300 years or so or more

663
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:56,180
Speaker 2: leading into Augustine was this supernatural interpretation, sons of God,

664
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:02,299
Speaker 2: spirit beings violating daughters of men, real women … where

665
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,980
Speaker 2: it gets controversial is where the book of first Enoch

666
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,340
Speaker 2: comes in and ties it to the Nephilim and demons today.

667
00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: Sure.

668
00:38:10,219 --> 00:38:12,219
Speaker 2: Make that connection. Tell us where you land with that.

669
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So first I think it's helpful for us to

670
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:22,180
Speaker 1: recognize that the church also, the first century church also has, um,

671
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:25,940
Speaker 1: a variety of views on this. Once again, they were

672
00:38:25,980 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: not monolithic in their interpretation of this. Uh, I want

673
00:38:29,140 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: to start with the biblical text. Let's start with the

674
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: New Testament. You've got Jude 5 through 7. You've got

675
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: 2 Peter 2, 1 through 10. I'll just read them

676
00:38:36,660 --> 00:38:40,529
Speaker 1: really quickly for us. Jude 5 through 7 says, well,

677
00:38:40,650 --> 00:38:42,750
Speaker 1: I'll summarize. It refers to the angels who did not

678
00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:46,370
Speaker 1: keep their domain. So where do we find angels who

679
00:38:46,410 --> 00:38:50,589
Speaker 1: don't keep their domain? Genesis 6. But transgressed boundaries and

680
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:54,970
Speaker 1: who are kept in eternal bonds in deep gloom until judgment.

681
00:38:55,230 --> 00:38:58,230
Speaker 1: Here's the challenge that we have. The angels who did

682
00:38:58,270 --> 00:39:01,790
Speaker 1: not keep to their domain, you can draw a direct

683
00:39:01,830 --> 00:39:06,630
Speaker 1: hyperlink line to Genesis 6. This transgression of boundaries conceptually

684
00:39:06,730 --> 00:39:10,010
Speaker 1: also works in Genesis 6. This question of eternal bonds

685
00:39:10,810 --> 00:39:13,430
Speaker 1: is like, wait a minute, what? What happened to those

686
00:39:13,469 --> 00:39:17,430
Speaker 1: Genesis 6 beings? We're not told, right? Like Genesis 6,

687
00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:19,650
Speaker 1: 1 through 4 doesn't give us that. And then the

688
00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:22,989
Speaker 1: context in Jude 5 through 7, interestingly, shifts to the

689
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: context of Sodom and Gomorrah. And the issue of sexual

690
00:39:25,940 --> 00:39:29,350
Speaker 1: immorality and unnatural desires and the judgment that's connected to it.

691
00:39:30,210 --> 00:39:35,219
Speaker 1: So where do you have sexual impropriety that takes place?

692
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,020
Speaker 1: Do you find that in Genesis 6, 1-4? Well, yeah,

693
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: if you take a spiritual reading, but then it gets

694
00:39:41,860 --> 00:39:44,980
Speaker 1: elaborated where else? In the Anakic tradition. How about this,

695
00:39:44,980 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: 2 Peter 2? In this passage, Peter's talking about God

696
00:39:49,290 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: And then Peter connects that section right away with the angels, right,

697
00:39:53,780 --> 00:39:55,780
Speaker 1: at the time of Noah and the flood. Well, what

698
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: happens in Genesis 6? In 6.1-4, sons of God, human women, Nephilim,

699
00:40:17,140 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: you go right into the flood narrative. So the early

700
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:28,049
Speaker 1: church actually interacts with Enoch, 1 Enoch, pretty intentionally. And

701
00:40:28,070 --> 00:40:31,989
Speaker 1: we have a summary of important early church fathers that

702
00:40:32,750 --> 00:40:39,330
Speaker 1: patristic scholars would recognize that either— be careful— either give a high

703
00:40:39,410 --> 00:40:44,310
Speaker 1: level of authoritative respect and influence— or even some that

704
00:40:44,350 --> 00:40:47,509
Speaker 1: refer to it and viewed it as canonical. Now, a

705
00:40:47,590 --> 00:40:51,010
Speaker 1: summary of these would be you've got the Epistle of Barnabas,

706
00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:54,230
Speaker 1: which might be the earliest Christian source that cites the

707
00:40:54,310 --> 00:40:58,910
Speaker 1: Enochic material. You've got Justin Martyr in the Second Apology

708
00:40:58,969 --> 00:41:01,620
Speaker 1: who opts for a supernatural reading of Genesis 6. He's

709
00:41:01,820 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: drawing on the Enochic tradition. You've got Tertullian, who is

710
00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:09,660
Speaker 1: the early Christian writer from Carthage. And he was actually

711
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:15,870
Speaker 1: the more aggressive proponent of Enoch being inspired. So in

712
00:41:15,890 --> 00:41:18,090
Speaker 1: his work on the peril of women in Book 1,

713
00:41:18,090 --> 00:41:21,910
Speaker 1: Chapter 3, he actually calls for Enoch's scripture and defends

714
00:41:22,010 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 1: its status using 2 Timothy 3.16. You've got Irenaeus, Bishop

715
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: of Lyon. Um, he was clearly aware of Enoch and

716
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: he referenced the tradition in chapter 10 of against the heresies. Um,

717
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: and you know, uh, you go on and on, you've

718
00:41:36,980 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: got origin, you've got Clement. Um, and what you find

719
00:41:40,410 --> 00:41:47,549
Speaker 1: is a summary of these early church fathers who, and patristic, um, influential, um, uh,

720
00:41:47,650 --> 00:41:53,950
Speaker 1: teachers that were at the very least at the minimum floor,

721
00:41:54,190 --> 00:41:58,029
Speaker 1: floor level, aware of the Enochian tradition enough so to

722
00:41:58,090 --> 00:42:04,009
Speaker 1: presume in their writing interpretive benefit of understanding what's taking

723
00:42:04,030 --> 00:42:06,770
Speaker 1: place with Genesis 6 in light of the Enochian tradition.

724
00:42:07,350 --> 00:42:12,029
Speaker 1: At the highest level, you have inspiration, a claim for inspiration.

725
00:42:12,050 --> 00:42:16,180
Speaker 1: This should be on par with the canon of Scripture.

726
00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: And this is where I would say church history wins out.

727
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,730
Speaker 1: What does church history leave us with? didn't make it

728
00:42:25,950 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: into the canon. And so I would say that first

729
00:42:29,219 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: Enoch should not be canonical. It should not be included

730
00:42:32,860 --> 00:42:36,500
Speaker 1: in the canon of scripture. I also strongly believe it

731
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,660
Speaker 1: is a, it's an error. It is a, um, it's

732
00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:46,950
Speaker 1: short-sighted to not give it, uh, how do I say it?

733
00:42:46,989 --> 00:42:50,350
Speaker 1: To not give it a thought, not authoritative, but, um,

734
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:57,730
Speaker 1: informational context that helps us explain these other passages of Scripture. Like,

735
00:42:58,790 --> 00:43:00,630
Speaker 1: the best way I could do it is, you've heard

736
00:43:00,650 --> 00:43:02,510
Speaker 1: of the Dream Team? Remember the Dream Team?

737
00:43:02,739 --> 00:43:05,379
Speaker 2: Are you serious? Have I heard of the Dream Team?

738
00:43:05,410 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: Come on, man. Who am I talking to? You hear

739
00:43:09,340 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: about that hidden video, that video of their scrimmage that

740
00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:17,780
Speaker 1: they did? I believe it's the Dream Team. um there's

741
00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:20,819
Speaker 1: a scrimmage that came out much later and it was

742
00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:23,580
Speaker 1: like them it was like the iconic who's who's of

743
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: that era ever the greatest of all times right and

744
00:43:26,140 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: they scrimmage each other one team is led by jordan

745
00:43:28,540 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: the other team is led by magic and uh christian

746
00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:33,900
Speaker 1: latner uh is on the bench the entire time he

747
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: never gets any playing time right and it's this like

748
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: video that surfaced years and years later and it's like

749
00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:43,220
Speaker 1: bootlegged and looks like grainy but you can clearly see

750
00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: them and it's like the most important game to answer

751
00:43:47,140 --> 00:43:49,860
Speaker 1: so many questions of who the greatest is. But it

752
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:53,940
Speaker 1: wasn't on ESPN. It wasn't on NBC. It wasn't, right?

753
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,540
Speaker 1: But we as enthusiasts would say, that's a data point

754
00:43:59,180 --> 00:44:02,150
Speaker 1: that we want to consider. And we don't throw it

755
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,989
Speaker 1: out the window because it's not got a NBC or

756
00:44:08,110 --> 00:44:11,690
Speaker 1: sports analyst host with production that we wouldn't throw it

757
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:14,509
Speaker 1: out the window. We'd say, oh yeah. this is a

758
00:44:14,670 --> 00:44:18,650
Speaker 1: data point that we put into that reminds us Michael

759
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:21,469
Speaker 1: Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time because

760
00:44:21,510 --> 00:44:23,930
Speaker 1: walking out of that, I believe this is where Larry

761
00:44:23,950 --> 00:44:27,890
Speaker 1: Bird said, uh, like to magic, it's his, like we've

762
00:44:27,910 --> 00:44:30,390
Speaker 1: handed over the, we've handed over the keys and Jordan's

763
00:44:30,430 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: taking the league now, you know? Um, and so in

764
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,620
Speaker 1: the same way, I really do believe that there is

765
00:44:35,739 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: interpretive help that comes from Enoch that first Enoch that,

766
00:44:42,690 --> 00:44:45,390
Speaker 1: will be beneficial to us. And we shouldn't extend it

767
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:47,629
Speaker 1: beyond what even the early church extended it to.

768
00:44:48,650 --> 00:44:51,980
Speaker 2: On the last Dynasty, which was, I think, the 10-part

769
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,219
Speaker 2: series about the 98 season with Jordan, there was one.

770
00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:56,740
Speaker 1: Great— The Last Dance.

771
00:44:57,219 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, Last Dance. Good correction.

772
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: They are the Last Dynasty.

773
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,939
Speaker 2: That would be another show. There is a grainy video,

774
00:45:04,980 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 2: it might be a different one, in which Magic is

775
00:45:06,910 --> 00:45:08,370
Speaker 2: leading one team against Jordan.

776
00:45:08,489 --> 00:45:09,109
Speaker 1: I think that's the one.

777
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:12,219
Speaker 2: And Magic, he says, we're up by, like, aid or

778
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,649
Speaker 2: something and he says something to jordan and he just

779
00:45:14,750 --> 00:45:18,569
Speaker 2: switches a gear scores non-stop beats him and you see

780
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:21,589
Speaker 2: magic booting the ball into the stands of like what

781
00:45:21,710 --> 00:45:23,890
Speaker 2: is happening yes and there were some comments of like

782
00:45:23,930 --> 00:45:27,090
Speaker 2: that's when we realized there's great and there is another

783
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:31,380
Speaker 2: level so your argument with first enoch is not that

784
00:45:31,410 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: it's inspired not that it's canonical so you'd say tertullian

785
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:36,860
Speaker 2: got it wrong and there's maybe a few other texts

786
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:41,219
Speaker 2: like at times say, Shepherd of Hermas. There's a handful

787
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: of times, as far as I'm aware, people say it

788
00:45:43,219 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: should have been canonical, but that's the exception. And so

789
00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: there might be some exceptions with First Enoch, but it

790
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:54,470
Speaker 2: wasn't largely accepted as canonical outside of that inspiration and authority,

791
00:45:54,890 --> 00:46:00,330
Speaker 2: but still valuable. And certainly the early church, Irenaeus, I

792
00:46:00,370 --> 00:46:05,070
Speaker 2: think you mentioned, obviously, Tertullian origin. These are some early

793
00:46:05,230 --> 00:46:10,489
Speaker 2: significant writers considered the tradition of first enoch now do

794
00:46:10,510 --> 00:46:12,219
Speaker 2: we know if they had the writing or like the

795
00:46:12,340 --> 00:46:15,740
Speaker 2: oral tradition or it'd be hard to just decipher exactly

796
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: what they were using and referring to.

797
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,339
Speaker 1: Yeah i think that they would have had the writing

798
00:46:19,380 --> 00:46:23,810
Speaker 1: because you've got um the community that has um The

799
00:46:23,890 --> 00:46:26,350
Speaker 1: written work, at least the Greek text, is available at

800
00:46:26,370 --> 00:46:31,550
Speaker 1: the time. The Second Temple specialists typically say that because

801
00:46:31,590 --> 00:46:35,509
Speaker 1: of what we found in Qumran, that they're Aramaic. It's

802
00:46:35,530 --> 00:46:38,390
Speaker 1: probably Aramaic originals. There's some who still opt out for

803
00:46:38,430 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 1: a Hebrew original. We just haven't found any Hebrew originals.

804
00:46:43,180 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: So it seems that it was written in Aramaic and

805
00:46:45,660 --> 00:46:50,140
Speaker 1: they're found in the Qumran caves. And so those accessible

806
00:46:50,540 --> 00:46:52,860
Speaker 1: to them around the time, at least accessible to Jude

807
00:46:53,020 --> 00:46:58,589
Speaker 1: and Peter. And there's also— the other really interesting thing about this, Sean, too,

808
00:46:58,670 --> 00:47:04,980
Speaker 1: is in Peter, there's the linguistic connection between what Peter

809
00:47:05,020 --> 00:47:10,970
Speaker 1: is saying about the angels trapped in Tartarus. The tighter

810
00:47:11,050 --> 00:47:15,830
Speaker 1: linguistic connection is to Enoch, not to Genesis 6. So

811
00:47:16,090 --> 00:47:18,370
Speaker 1: that's also— Fascinating.

812
00:47:18,510 --> 00:47:21,730
Speaker 2: Oh, that's super interesting. OK, so this is really like

813
00:47:21,770 --> 00:47:24,390
Speaker 2: the rub where the debate is at. Yes. And obviously

814
00:47:24,410 --> 00:47:27,940
Speaker 2: where you're seeing here with yourself, with Heiser, people like

815
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: Clint Arnold differing on this, which is fine. I would

816
00:47:31,980 --> 00:47:35,100
Speaker 2: love people watching this for or against. So list your questions,

817
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: list your arguments for or against, including the account in

818
00:47:40,260 --> 00:47:43,850
Speaker 2: Enoch of the Nephilim. reliable or not and we'll come

819
00:47:43,870 --> 00:47:46,549
Speaker 2: back we'll respond to them we'll interact with them if

820
00:47:46,570 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: there's a point you think hey you've missed this throw

821
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: it in there and we'll come back on our kind

822
00:47:51,060 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: of talbot tuesday interact with it but this is i

823
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,720
Speaker 2: mean this is where the debate rests do we trust

824
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 2: it as an account of the source of the demonic

825
00:48:00,469 --> 00:48:02,390
Speaker 2: or is it more a tale that we can't trust

826
00:48:02,510 --> 00:48:04,989
Speaker 2: now tell me how this fits into your work the

827
00:48:05,110 --> 00:48:06,330
Speaker 2: unseen battle.

828
00:48:07,010 --> 00:48:10,130
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, one of the big things that it

829
00:48:10,170 --> 00:48:16,250
Speaker 1: does for us is that it provides the playing ground, essentially,

830
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:21,089
Speaker 1: for Paul's language of powers, principalities, and authorities. So the

831
00:48:21,150 --> 00:48:24,650
Speaker 1: sons of God language of Genesis 6 maps onto the

832
00:48:24,690 --> 00:48:28,330
Speaker 1: sons of God language in Deuteronomy 32, 8, and 9.

833
00:48:28,330 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: So we're building almost like these dominoes that are going

834
00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:35,660
Speaker 1: together where the consequence of the sons of God of

835
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:40,370
Speaker 1: Genesis 6 is, in light of the Enoch tradition, they're

836
00:48:40,590 --> 00:48:44,049
Speaker 1: cast into Tartarus, into Hades, and they're imprisoned there until

837
00:48:44,070 --> 00:48:48,670
Speaker 1: the time of judgment. So that's a distinct group of

838
00:48:49,370 --> 00:48:51,910
Speaker 1: spiritual beings, these sons of God. The sons of God

839
00:48:51,930 --> 00:48:55,220
Speaker 1: of Deuteronomy 32, 8, and 9, they are the false

840
00:48:55,260 --> 00:48:58,940
Speaker 1: gods of the nations. So Enoch gives us a spiritual

841
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,859
Speaker 1: being reading of the Genesis 6 sons of God, which

842
00:49:02,980 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: linguistically and conceptually should then be translated over to how

843
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,009
Speaker 1: we understand the sons of God, Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9.

844
00:49:10,010 --> 00:49:13,989
Speaker 1: While they are same types of beings, their judgment is

845
00:49:14,190 --> 00:49:17,089
Speaker 1: different in that they're not trapped in Tartarus, which means

846
00:49:17,210 --> 00:49:19,490
Speaker 1: where are they now? And what are they doing now?

847
00:49:20,020 --> 00:49:22,379
Speaker 1: So in my book, The Unseen Battle, the second half

848
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: of the book, what I try to argue for is

849
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 1: that Paul has particular language that he uses when he's

850
00:49:29,420 --> 00:49:32,970
Speaker 1: referring to the gods of the nations. And Paul's language

851
00:49:32,989 --> 00:49:37,230
Speaker 1: of powers, principalities, authorities, he uses the Greek term stoicheia,

852
00:49:37,310 --> 00:49:40,210
Speaker 1: elemental spirits, when he's referring to them in Colossians and

853
00:49:40,410 --> 00:49:44,850
Speaker 1: in Ephesians, the beings that he's talking about are not

854
00:49:44,910 --> 00:49:49,009
Speaker 1: the beings of the demons of the Gospels. You can

855
00:49:49,230 --> 00:49:52,299
Speaker 1: refer to the angels episode that we did. But he's

856
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,180
Speaker 1: actually talking about the sons of God of Deuteronomy 32,

857
00:49:54,180 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: 8 and 9. These are spiritual beings over geopolitical areas

858
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,460
Speaker 1: that have a level of authority that are creating chaos

859
00:50:04,300 --> 00:50:06,710
Speaker 1: in the world. And then you have Colossians 1, that

860
00:50:06,730 --> 00:50:09,310
Speaker 1: says that the dark powers, these powers, principalities, and authorities

861
00:50:09,550 --> 00:50:12,529
Speaker 1: have been stripped and disarmed. So then the question is,

862
00:50:12,530 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 1: where have they been stripped and disarmed of, but they're

863
00:50:14,260 --> 00:50:16,660
Speaker 1: still active and they're working, and we feel their oppressive

864
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 1: power in our world together, right? So in my work,

865
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: I try to point out spiritual warfare is actually about

866
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: gospel proclamation. The thing that they've been stripped and disarmed

867
00:50:25,060 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: of is their ability to blind the nations. They can

868
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,930
Speaker 1: no longer blind the nations. In light of that, this

869
00:50:29,950 --> 00:50:32,660
Speaker 1: is why Jesus gives us the Great Commission. And so

870
00:50:34,140 --> 00:50:38,650
Speaker 1: the background that Enoch does for us in creating clarification

871
00:50:38,969 --> 00:50:42,030
Speaker 1: for Genesis 6 and those spiritual beings can be mapped

872
00:50:42,130 --> 00:50:45,370
Speaker 1: onto Genesis 11 and the Tower of Babel story and

873
00:50:45,390 --> 00:50:50,009
Speaker 1: the division of the nations, which just reinforces a supernatural

874
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:53,500
Speaker 1: reading of what's taking place. That these are mythic stories

875
00:50:53,540 --> 00:50:58,380
Speaker 1: that were well understood in the time of the Greco-Roman worldview. Ephesus,

876
00:50:58,820 --> 00:51:01,790
Speaker 1: Temple of Artemis. the Artemisian. I mean, all of these

877
00:51:01,830 --> 00:51:05,710
Speaker 1: things are interrelated and interconnected. These are not new and

878
00:51:05,770 --> 00:51:06,490
Speaker 1: novel ideas.

879
00:51:07,150 --> 00:51:09,290
Speaker 2: Man, this is such interesting stuff. All right, so I

880
00:51:09,330 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 2: have some apologetic questions for you. In some ways, you

881
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 2: may have kind of answered these, so you could just say, hey,

882
00:51:14,700 --> 00:51:17,740
Speaker 2: let me sum up what my response would be here.

883
00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: But if we're looking at 1 Enoch, how does it

884
00:51:20,180 --> 00:51:23,350
Speaker 2: compare and contrast with the books of the Bible?

885
00:51:25,170 --> 00:51:28,469
Speaker 1: It compares and contrasts in that it's literature. It is

886
00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:36,009
Speaker 1: referring to a biblical figure in Enoch. It is different

887
00:51:36,610 --> 00:51:39,010
Speaker 1: in that it's a product of a period of time.

888
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:42,859
Speaker 1: And it's a product of the Second Temple period, roughly

889
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,700
Speaker 1: the time of Alexander the Great to AD 70 with

890
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 1: the destruction of the Second Temple. And in light of that,

891
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: we have to be aware of any literature, any writing

892
00:51:52,580 --> 00:51:56,110
Speaker 1: of what is happening historically, socially, and culturally of that

893
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,950
Speaker 1: time period. So the Hebrew Bible is essentially closed by

894
00:51:59,989 --> 00:52:03,650
Speaker 1: the time that the Enochic tradition, Second Temple literature, is

895
00:52:03,830 --> 00:52:08,590
Speaker 1: being put together and writing. And so it is drawing

896
00:52:08,830 --> 00:52:12,549
Speaker 1: on an earlier biblical tradition, which is part of the

897
00:52:12,570 --> 00:52:14,790
Speaker 1: reason why I think to the next question we're going

898
00:52:14,810 --> 00:52:17,190
Speaker 1: to get to is you get to issues of canonicity,

899
00:52:17,330 --> 00:52:21,109
Speaker 1: of how do you understand and give value and authority

900
00:52:21,290 --> 00:52:24,250
Speaker 1: to a work that is essentially in between the times.

901
00:52:24,910 --> 00:52:27,259
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the trick. And I remember when I was–

902
00:52:27,469 --> 00:52:28,730
Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe I was in junior high or

903
00:52:28,770 --> 00:52:31,610
Speaker 2: high school, and I was like, wait, Catholics have different books?

904
00:52:31,810 --> 00:52:32,469
Speaker 1: Yeah.

905
00:52:32,489 --> 00:52:34,669
Speaker 2: And the Orthodox Church, they have different books, and there's

906
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:39,500
Speaker 2: these deuterocanonical, pseudepigraphal– my automatic mind was like, oh, they're

907
00:52:39,540 --> 00:52:41,339
Speaker 2: bad because they're not in the Bible. And I was like,

908
00:52:41,380 --> 00:52:46,580
Speaker 2: that's such an immature, simplistic response. Yep. So you've said

909
00:52:46,620 --> 00:52:50,489
Speaker 2: that you don't think 1 Enoch should be included in

910
00:52:50,530 --> 00:52:54,609
Speaker 2: the canon. I'd be curious why– And then if not,

911
00:52:54,750 --> 00:52:55,670
Speaker 2: how should we view it?

912
00:52:56,330 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: Because I think we need to take church history seriously.

913
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,020
Speaker 1: And I think we should trust the providence of God

914
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: and the sovereignty of God that the earlier that we

915
00:53:04,100 --> 00:53:07,060
Speaker 1: get to there, while we get the canon lists coming together.

916
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:11,500
Speaker 1: And again, Gavin Orland has done such excellent work on just,

917
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,540
Speaker 1: you know, the canon of scripture, how it's come together.

918
00:53:15,300 --> 00:53:16,950
Speaker 1: There's great books that have been written on it. But,

919
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:19,129
Speaker 1: you know, important for everybody to realize it wasn't like

920
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:22,380
Speaker 1: We woke up one day and it's like, done. All

921
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 1: of these are set, established, 66 books, and we're done.

922
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 1: There was a process that had to take place to

923
00:53:30,420 --> 00:53:33,580
Speaker 1: present and putting these lists together. And so I think

924
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,989
Speaker 1: we should take that seriously. And we are products of

925
00:53:36,030 --> 00:53:39,220
Speaker 1: a tradition. That's part of it, I think, unapologetic, that

926
00:53:39,469 --> 00:53:41,770
Speaker 1: we're not creating new novel ideas, that we have been

927
00:53:41,810 --> 00:53:44,750
Speaker 1: recipients of a tradition that has been passed down to us.

928
00:53:44,910 --> 00:53:47,370
Speaker 1: And I kind of love the fact that Tertullian at

929
00:53:47,410 --> 00:53:50,630
Speaker 1: some point has to back down. Like, he's like, hey,

930
00:53:50,870 --> 00:53:53,870
Speaker 1: I think this needs to be scripture. And he's like,

931
00:53:54,410 --> 00:53:56,049
Speaker 1: nobody else. It's kind of like the guy, it's the

932
00:53:56,070 --> 00:53:58,180
Speaker 1: guy who says LeBron's the goat. And it's like, he's

933
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,460
Speaker 1: by himself, you know? And nobody, it's like, at some point,

934
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: you just gotta back down, bro. You just gotta back down.

935
00:54:02,940 --> 00:54:05,620
Speaker 2: And it's like- You just lit up my followers that

936
00:54:05,660 --> 00:54:06,700
Speaker 2: care about that stuff.

937
00:54:06,739 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: They're dying.

938
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:08,220
Speaker 2: Now they're commenting.

939
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 1: I know, now they're commenting. But yeah, so that's what

940
00:54:12,140 --> 00:54:17,589
Speaker 1: I'd say, that we should trust the tradition and respect that.

941
00:54:20,060 --> 00:54:27,970
Speaker 1: and not overreact to that either. We ought to read

942
00:54:28,010 --> 00:54:29,390
Speaker 1: it in its appropriate setting.

943
00:54:30,210 --> 00:54:33,270
Speaker 2: So you fear being misunderstood on your views on First

944
00:54:33,330 --> 00:54:36,310
Speaker 2: Enoch on social media, but you're making them very clear

945
00:54:36,450 --> 00:54:37,750
Speaker 2: on LeBron and Jordan.

946
00:54:38,010 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a Chicago kid through and through.

947
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: Okay, that explains it. All right, so you hinted at

948
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,470
Speaker 2: this earlier that, we have both in writings of Peter

949
00:54:48,830 --> 00:54:52,259
Speaker 2: and in Jude, a reference to, or a quote of

950
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:56,820
Speaker 2: first Enoch. What does that tell us about first Enoch?

951
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 2: And why would they quote this if it's not a

952
00:54:58,420 --> 00:54:59,020
Speaker 2: canonical book?

953
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,500
Speaker 1: So again, Jude and Peter are aware of second temple literature.

954
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,450
Speaker 1: They're products of their time. There are reading and understanding. And, um,

955
00:55:06,690 --> 00:55:09,009
Speaker 1: once again, I think that it's important for us to

956
00:55:09,489 --> 00:55:12,370
Speaker 1: recognize this is not something that is new and isolated

957
00:55:12,510 --> 00:55:16,230
Speaker 1: to the new Testament. the idea of the biblical writers

958
00:55:16,270 --> 00:55:21,230
Speaker 1: and authors being literate individuals. For instance, the Old Testament

959
00:55:21,350 --> 00:55:25,860
Speaker 1: covenants that you have, they're actually structured based off of

960
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: different types of ancient Near Eastern treaties. It's kind of fascinating.

961
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,660
Speaker 1: There's a brilliant scholar, Dr. Enstone Brewer, who's done a

962
00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:37,259
Speaker 1: lot of work on ancient Near Eastern treaties, particularly divorce certificates.

963
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,299
Speaker 1: And in some of the work that I've done at

964
00:55:39,340 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: Proverbs 31 Ministries, We've done a lot of work on

965
00:55:42,820 --> 00:55:45,009
Speaker 1: marriage rights and contracts and kind of what does that

966
00:55:45,070 --> 00:55:51,489
Speaker 1: look like. And there were contracts that were written and

967
00:55:51,550 --> 00:55:54,850
Speaker 1: established in a very certain way amongst the ancient Near

968
00:55:54,890 --> 00:55:58,570
Speaker 1: Eastern people groups of the Mesopotamians and Assyrians and the Hittites.

969
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: And the divorce certificates that was unique to Israel. The

970
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: other nations didn't have this. They're drawing on other writing,

971
00:56:08,060 --> 00:56:10,779
Speaker 1: other contracts at the time. So Old Testament covenants. The

972
00:56:10,860 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: prophets and the psalmists are actually at times quoting like

973
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:18,620
Speaker 1: Psalm 74. They're quoting from the Baal cycle. There's literary

974
00:56:18,739 --> 00:56:22,050
Speaker 1: work that's around there. You've got Solomon who borrows material

975
00:56:22,090 --> 00:56:26,029
Speaker 1: from the wisdom of Amenemope. I can never say that word.

976
00:56:26,450 --> 00:56:29,390
Speaker 1: Proverbs 22. And then in the New Testament, this is famous.

977
00:56:29,469 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: Most people know this, right? Paul's quotations of the Greek

978
00:56:31,700 --> 00:56:34,800
Speaker 1: poets is so well known. Acts 17, Epimenides and Aretas

979
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:39,810
Speaker 1: and 1 Corinthians 15, Euripides and Menander. So, This isn't isolated.

980
00:56:40,190 --> 00:56:43,210
Speaker 1: This isn't an isolated idea. And by the time we

981
00:56:43,270 --> 00:56:48,720
Speaker 1: get to Jude and Peter, we go, oh, they were literate.

982
00:56:49,180 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: They were reading. They were aware of the writing of

983
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,259
Speaker 1: the time. And they didn't find it a problem of,

984
00:56:55,620 --> 00:56:58,500
Speaker 1: as they're drawing on and doing a biblical theology, pulling

985
00:56:58,580 --> 00:57:04,850
Speaker 1: from this issue of spiritual rebellion and the contaminations, that

986
00:57:05,090 --> 00:57:09,530
Speaker 1: it produces in the earthly environment, in our world, amongst people,

987
00:57:09,730 --> 00:57:13,190
Speaker 1: in our society, in our culture, they're like, we can

988
00:57:13,230 --> 00:57:15,830
Speaker 1: trace this back to an origin story. It's in Genesis 6,

989
00:57:15,830 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: and there's an elaboration to the story. And we find

990
00:57:18,430 --> 00:57:22,260
Speaker 1: those details of Tartarus and imprisonment in the Enochic tradition.

991
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:29,980
Speaker 1: Do Jude and Peter treat Enoch as inspired? That is

992
00:57:30,020 --> 00:57:33,580
Speaker 1: a question for debate. That is a question for consideration.

993
00:57:34,100 --> 00:57:37,070
Speaker 1: I don't know that I'm convinced that just because it's

994
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:41,810
Speaker 1: quoted that they viewed it as inspired. In the same way,

995
00:57:41,850 --> 00:57:45,430
Speaker 1: I don't think that Paul views Euripides and Menendez as

996
00:57:45,490 --> 00:57:48,730
Speaker 1: inspired just because they quote them, right? And so in fairness,

997
00:57:48,790 --> 00:57:51,010
Speaker 1: I think that we should have some caution when we

998
00:57:51,070 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 1: think about how they're using it. They're contextualizing it. They're

999
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: understanding it. And they're saying this provides some explanatory power

1000
00:57:59,060 --> 00:58:02,100
Speaker 1: for this. And so that's one area that I'd want

1001
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:02,780
Speaker 1: to be careful about.

1002
00:58:03,940 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 2: It just reminds me of a distinction that William Lane

1003
00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 2: Craig will make as it's tied to the historical Adam.

1004
00:58:10,030 --> 00:58:14,330
Speaker 2: In certain figures will be referenced like, say, Job or Jonah.

1005
00:58:14,890 --> 00:58:18,050
Speaker 2: The question is, are they referring to the books the

1006
00:58:18,090 --> 00:58:20,870
Speaker 2: way you and I might quote a movie, or are

1007
00:58:20,930 --> 00:58:25,780
Speaker 2: they quoting them as if they're real historical figures that existed?

1008
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,460
Speaker 2: And a quote itself doesn't answer that. You have to

1009
00:58:28,500 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 2: look at how it's quoted, how it's referred to. So

1010
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,340
Speaker 2: in Paul's writings, of course, when it's like the first

1011
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 2: Adam and the second Adam, there's some serious parallel being

1012
00:58:38,300 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 2: made here, which points towards a historical Adam.

1013
00:58:41,460 --> 00:58:41,700
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1014
00:58:41,980 --> 00:58:44,390
Speaker 2: Or even in Acts 17 again, which you brought up earlier,

1015
00:58:44,430 --> 00:58:47,790
Speaker 2: from one man we all came, seems to indicate this

1016
00:58:47,850 --> 00:58:50,370
Speaker 2: is historical. So we don't have to answer this now,

1017
00:58:50,410 --> 00:58:51,930
Speaker 2: but I'd be curious if people could weigh in and

1018
00:58:51,970 --> 00:58:53,970
Speaker 2: give their two cents in terms of the way Peter

1019
00:58:54,030 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 2: and Jude quote, not just quoting Paul, But is there

1020
00:58:57,620 --> 00:59:00,500
Speaker 2: a reason to think that the way they quote or

1021
00:59:00,580 --> 00:59:04,310
Speaker 2: reference 1 Enoch is not just as the tradition of it,

1022
00:59:04,660 --> 00:59:08,950
Speaker 2: but this is inspired and this is genuinely objectively true

1023
00:59:08,970 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: one or both ways? of those– I don't have an

1024
00:59:11,540 --> 00:59:13,100
Speaker 2: answer to that. I don't know if there's literature or

1025
00:59:13,140 --> 00:59:16,190
Speaker 2: people debating this, but that would be really interesting to know.

1026
00:59:16,820 --> 00:59:18,530
Speaker 2: Do you have a sense of that?

1027
00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:20,970
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the big questions that comes

1028
00:59:21,010 --> 00:59:24,610
Speaker 1: up in this conversation is the nature of direct quotations

1029
00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:29,330
Speaker 1: of Scripture and the introductory formula that's used when you're

1030
00:59:29,370 --> 00:59:32,130
Speaker 1: quoting something. So as the Scripture says or as the

1031
00:59:32,190 --> 00:59:36,170
Speaker 1: Word of God says, you find that missing in these.

1032
00:59:36,290 --> 00:59:41,970
Speaker 1: And so there's a distinction between echoes, allusions, and quotations.

1033
00:59:42,010 --> 00:59:45,790
Speaker 1: So you've got quotations, echoes, and allusions. And this is

1034
00:59:45,810 --> 00:59:49,990
Speaker 1: not a quotation. This is clearly an echo. And there's

1035
00:59:50,190 --> 00:59:54,950
Speaker 1: elsewhere throughout the Gospels particularly that an argument can be

1036
00:59:54,990 --> 01:00:00,390
Speaker 1: made for other allusions to Enoch. Again, Lawrence Stuckenbrook has

1037
01:00:00,890 --> 01:00:06,140
Speaker 1: written a pretty, I think, helpful summary of where he

1038
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,500
Speaker 1: sees echoes and allusions of the Enochian tradition in the

1039
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: Gospels themselves. Oh, wow. And so this moves beyond just

1040
01:00:13,940 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: Jude and Peter, but it still centers in on the

1041
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: question of how do we understand it? Do we view

1042
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,910
Speaker 1: it as inspired? What makes it tricky is you do

1043
01:00:23,970 --> 01:00:28,710
Speaker 1: then have somebody like Tertullian and others that are in

1044
01:00:28,730 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 1: the patristic era. that do view it as scripture and

1045
01:00:32,180 --> 01:00:35,430
Speaker 1: they do give it introductory, an introductory formula and give

1046
01:00:35,450 --> 01:00:38,070
Speaker 1: it as, as the, you know, as the scripture say,

1047
01:00:38,090 --> 01:00:40,830
Speaker 1: or as the, as the Holy Spirit wrote. And, and,

1048
01:00:40,970 --> 01:00:45,650
Speaker 1: you know, um, so what gets authority? What, who, who gets,

1049
01:00:45,730 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: who gets to win, uh, on that? Or could it

1050
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: be that, and this is where I land, nuanced, that

1051
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:57,540
Speaker 1: if you have enough folks on both sides at the very, like,

1052
01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,180
Speaker 1: where do we put the bar at the minimum is

1053
01:00:59,220 --> 01:01:03,470
Speaker 1: we'd say, It's helpful. It has some level of authoritative

1054
01:01:04,550 --> 01:01:08,910
Speaker 1: contextual clues, but it's not inspired. And so that's where

1055
01:01:08,930 --> 01:01:09,550
Speaker 1: I would leave it as.

1056
01:01:10,330 --> 01:01:13,010
Speaker 2: That's really the interesting question to me. How does Peter

1057
01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:16,660
Speaker 2: and Jude and the rest of the New Testament reference

1058
01:01:16,660 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 2: 1 Enoch as authoritative, as inspired? How did the early

1059
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 2: church fathers reference as a whole? So somebody's watched this like,

1060
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,900
Speaker 2: wait a minute, you missed this quote, you missed this point,

1061
01:01:27,940 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 2: this study. Tag it in there. Throw your questions in there.

1062
01:01:30,740 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 2: I would love to get your thoughts on that for

1063
01:01:33,980 --> 01:01:36,380
Speaker 2: so many different reasons. And of course, as it ties

1064
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:40,140
Speaker 2: back towards first Enoch, do we go to the position?

1065
01:01:40,820 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 2: Clint Arnold was much more skeptical of relying upon first

1066
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,500
Speaker 2: Enoch as a source to fill in the gaps. You

1067
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: and the highs are on board with it. What questions

1068
01:01:49,660 --> 01:01:53,410
Speaker 2: do people have or criticisms of that position? Throw your

1069
01:01:53,470 --> 01:01:55,110
Speaker 2: questions in there and we're going to do a live

1070
01:01:55,170 --> 01:01:58,610
Speaker 2: Q & A. We will circle back to that. I'm

1071
01:01:58,630 --> 01:02:00,230
Speaker 2: looking forward to that because I'm trying to make sense

1072
01:02:00,250 --> 01:02:03,110
Speaker 2: of this in my own mind. All right, so last question.

1073
01:02:04,250 --> 01:02:10,689
Speaker 2: Would you encourage Christians to read 1 Enoch? Why not?

1074
01:02:10,970 --> 01:02:14,490
Speaker 2: And should, if they read it, keep anything in mind

1075
01:02:14,710 --> 01:02:15,270
Speaker 2: as doing so?

1076
01:02:15,290 --> 01:02:18,850
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to say something that I think is important.

1077
01:02:20,390 --> 01:02:24,070
Speaker 1: You should only read or even consider this question if

1078
01:02:24,090 --> 01:02:24,950
Speaker 1: you've been reading your Bibles.

1079
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:26,220
Speaker 2: Oh, I like that.

1080
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:30,510
Speaker 1: Like, honestly, you know, like this is human nature. We

1081
01:02:30,530 --> 01:02:33,010
Speaker 1: have a tendency to be enamored. This is a personal

1082
01:02:33,030 --> 01:02:36,230
Speaker 1: conviction of mine, Sean. I find myself often reading more

1083
01:02:36,290 --> 01:02:40,310
Speaker 1: words about God than God's words himself. And I just

1084
01:02:40,470 --> 01:02:42,530
Speaker 1: want to be a person who's passionate about the scriptures.

1085
01:02:42,550 --> 01:02:44,490
Speaker 1: Like I want to know the Bible on its own terms.

1086
01:02:44,530 --> 01:02:46,930
Speaker 1: I want to read the text. And so there's a

1087
01:02:46,970 --> 01:02:48,430
Speaker 1: part of this that like, I'm passionate about it.

1088
01:02:48,450 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 2: I love it.

1089
01:02:48,890 --> 01:02:50,660
Speaker 1: I think you have access to it. Why not go

1090
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,540
Speaker 1: after it? And then at the same time, if you

1091
01:02:53,580 --> 01:02:55,990
Speaker 1: aren't just reading your own Bible, like, That's the place

1092
01:02:56,010 --> 01:02:58,780
Speaker 1: to start, you know? And then the second thing, too,

1093
01:02:58,860 --> 01:03:00,860
Speaker 1: is I would say, yeah, if you have access to it,

1094
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: why wouldn't we want to? Again, I've got a sidebar

1095
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,820
Speaker 1: in The Unseen Battle where I talk about our approach

1096
01:03:08,530 --> 01:03:12,990
Speaker 1: to non-canonical scripture, to Second Temple literature, you know? And

1097
01:03:13,570 --> 01:03:15,590
Speaker 1: why should we read it? Why should we not read it?

1098
01:03:15,610 --> 01:03:18,030
Speaker 1: And what cautions to have along the way. And I

1099
01:03:18,030 --> 01:03:20,210
Speaker 1: think that will be helpful for you as well. If

1100
01:03:20,230 --> 01:03:23,140
Speaker 1: you have a tendency– so here's like a pragmatic one.

1101
01:03:23,930 --> 01:03:26,180
Speaker 1: If you start to read it and you have a

1102
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: sense of fear, anxiety, like stop reading it. It's probably

1103
01:03:32,860 --> 01:03:34,550
Speaker 1: not going to be helpful for you. But if you

1104
01:03:34,570 --> 01:03:36,690
Speaker 1: get in there and you go, wow, this has some

1105
01:03:36,730 --> 01:03:39,490
Speaker 1: explanatory help. It's giving me context. It makes me want

1106
01:03:39,510 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 1: to read. Genesis 6, 1 through 4 closer. I think

1107
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: I want to study the original languages. Heck, I might

1108
01:03:44,420 --> 01:03:46,660
Speaker 1: want to go to Talbot School of Theology. Like, I

1109
01:03:46,700 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: think this is really, I would say, oh yeah, those

1110
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: are some good indications that you're reading in such a

1111
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:55,590
Speaker 1: way that it is stirring your affections for Jesus. And

1112
01:03:55,620 --> 01:03:57,690
Speaker 1: so I want that to be the litmus test along

1113
01:03:57,730 --> 01:04:02,070
Speaker 1: the way. Should you read it? Sure. Contextually, is it

1114
01:04:02,150 --> 01:04:04,190
Speaker 1: the best thing for you? And what is it producing

1115
01:04:04,290 --> 01:04:07,090
Speaker 1: in you? What is it creating in you? But the

1116
01:04:07,130 --> 01:04:09,070
Speaker 1: first things first, man, read your Bible.

1117
01:04:09,630 --> 01:04:11,850
Speaker 2: Joel, I love it. Both our last two interviews, at

1118
01:04:11,890 --> 01:04:14,630
Speaker 2: the end, you really brought it back to Jesus. So

1119
01:04:14,830 --> 01:04:17,010
Speaker 2: thank you. Love it about your writings. Love it about

1120
01:04:17,030 --> 01:04:20,580
Speaker 2: your ministry. I wish I had been more aware, first Enoch,

1121
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,620
Speaker 2: when I taught Old Testament for a decade in high school.

1122
01:04:24,140 --> 01:04:26,420
Speaker 2: We would have studied this passage of Genesis 6 and

1123
01:04:26,460 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 2: probably pulled some snippets and said, what do you make

1124
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:31,550
Speaker 2: of this? Like it would have just created interest and drama,

1125
01:04:31,590 --> 01:04:35,230
Speaker 2: introduced intertestamental. literature and how we know it's historical just

1126
01:04:35,250 --> 01:04:39,550
Speaker 2: would have raised really good historical theological questions. So I

1127
01:04:39,570 --> 01:04:43,870
Speaker 2: agree with you. I want to encourage Christians against, A,

1128
01:04:43,950 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 2: feeling like, wow, 1 Enoch, it's almost like you have

1129
01:04:46,180 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 2: this Gnostic secret knowledge. That's really why there's so much

1130
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:53,660
Speaker 2: talk about this on the internet. So I was curious,

1131
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 2: hence I wanted to do this, but also calm things

1132
01:04:56,700 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 2: down a little bit, put it into perspective. So I

1133
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:02,340
Speaker 2: want to lean away from that, but I also want

1134
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 2: to tell people, like, sometimes the forbidden fruit, just read

1135
01:05:06,660 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 2: it and let's look at it. I would read atheist

1136
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 2: books to my students and say, let's just talk about

1137
01:05:11,100 --> 01:05:13,820
Speaker 2: it because they were interested. So read it, but in

1138
01:05:13,900 --> 01:05:16,300
Speaker 2: light of kind of the conversation that we've had and

1139
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 2: definitely in light of Scripture as priority, I think that's

1140
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 2: a great word. You have a good section in this.

1141
01:05:22,740 --> 01:05:26,180
Speaker 2: You covered in terms of the three battles you walked through, 3, 6,

1142
01:05:26,180 --> 01:05:28,340
Speaker 2: and 11 in Genesis, and talk about it as it

1143
01:05:28,830 --> 01:05:31,580
Speaker 2: lays into the rebellion in Genesis 6. I think it's

1144
01:05:31,660 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 2: really well written. Super fascinating. Love it. Good conversation. I

1145
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,620
Speaker 2: want to invite people to write in their questions because

1146
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,830
Speaker 2: we're going to come back on a Tuesday soon. We'll

1147
01:05:40,850 --> 01:05:43,130
Speaker 2: give the date. And we'll take your questions on our

1148
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:47,230
Speaker 2: last interview on Angels and Demons, your questions on First Enoch,

1149
01:05:47,690 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: and we will be here live soon to discuss this.

1150
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,180
Speaker 2: Make sure you follow Joel. You don't have a YouTube channel,

1151
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 2: do you?

1152
01:05:52,420 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 1: I do. It's just all my stuff is Mutamali.

1153
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 2: I do.

1154
01:05:56,140 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 1: There's just stuff that goes on there. It's just not

1155
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,180
Speaker 1: as cool. I got to do more cool stuff on

1156
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: there like you're doing. Most of my stuff is Instagram

1157
01:06:02,660 --> 01:06:05,180
Speaker 1: and Substack. But yeah, everything is Mutamali.

1158
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 2: You're killing it on Substack, by the way. Your Instagram

1159
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,020
Speaker 2: is awesome. And check out Unseen Battle. We will definitely

1160
01:06:11,060 --> 01:06:13,340
Speaker 2: have you back for a third time. Folks, make sure

1161
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 2: you hit subscribe and let me know this kind of

1162
01:06:15,180 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 2: in-depth conversation that I want to have here with scholars

1163
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 2: like Joel, with faculty here like at Talbot. What other

1164
01:06:22,460 --> 01:06:25,380
Speaker 2: topics could we explore? Is this a helpful thing on

1165
01:06:25,420 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 2: my channel? Let me know and we can do some

1166
01:06:28,100 --> 01:06:29,820
Speaker 2: more of this. We'd love to have you come study

1167
01:06:29,860 --> 01:06:33,300
Speaker 2: with us at Talbot. It would be amazing. Joel, thanks, brother.

1168
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 1: This is fun.

1169
01:06:33,660 --> 01:06:36,300
Speaker 2: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1170
01:06:36,380 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 2: follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1171
01:06:39,380 --> 01:06:41,690
Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge

1172
01:06:41,750 --> 01:06:44,530
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

1173
01:06:44,570 --> 01:06:48,930
Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

1174
01:06:49,130 --> 01:06:52,230
Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

1175
01:06:52,390 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1176
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:00,580
Speaker 2: where we have on-campus and online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation,

1177
01:07:00,660 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 2: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would

1178
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:06,190
Speaker 2: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

1179
01:07:06,250 --> 01:07:09,030
Speaker 2: defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you

1180
01:07:09,150 --> 01:07:10,660
Speaker 2: when the next episode drops.