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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer. I'm joined

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Speaker 1: by doctor Ashish Pharma and we're going to continue our

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Speaker 1: conversation about biblical manhood today. And today we're really going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about, given that there is no thing

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Speaker 1: that we can identify as biblical manhood within scripture, how

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Speaker 1: do we encourage men to be male disciples of Christ?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: What does that look like? So if we're taking something

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Speaker 1: away there is no biblical manhood, we probably should put

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Speaker 1: something back in it same place, and so that's what

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Speaker 1: we're going to be trying to do in this episode. So, ah,

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Speaker 1: thanks again for being here.

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Speaker 2: Man, great to be here, and a fair impulse. We

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Speaker 2: take away we should fill that void.

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Speaker 1: It feels like we should. Yeah, we don't want. We

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Speaker 1: don't want men just run around they like, oh good,

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Speaker 1: I have no boundaries. It's probably not the natural state.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we don't have to do much on

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Speaker 1: you know, is there a biblical manhood idea? I feel

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Speaker 1: like we've covered this an awful lot and the difficulties

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Speaker 1: of sort of parsing out between you know, when we

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Speaker 1: look at Abraham's life or something like that, we look

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Speaker 1: at Jesus's life, we look at any of these characters

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Speaker 1: in scripture, are you know what we're seeing? It's going

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Speaker 1: to be impossible for us to distinguish, and I'll use

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Speaker 1: the impossible language. It's going to be impossible for us

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Speaker 1: to distinguish between what is faithful behavior and what is

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Speaker 1: masculine behavior. And so I would just argue that what

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Speaker 1: we're really seeing in scripture is not presentations of masculinity.

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Speaker 1: What we're seeing are presentations of faith fullness embodied in

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Speaker 1: male and female bodies. That's sort of the way I

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Speaker 1: think about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I tend to default to that as well,

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Speaker 2: unless there's a distinct reason given to guide us to

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Speaker 2: think more specifically, which I don't really see very often, right,

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Speaker 2: Like if there's a passage saying fathers be like this, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I get it, there's specificity here. But I think another

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Speaker 2: point that's worth making in that it can be easy.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about this at other times, but with Greek

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Speaker 2: and Hebrew being gendered languages, we have to be careful

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Speaker 2: to not read into the fact that, you know, for instance,

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Speaker 2: in the Greek, if it says adel foss and a

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Speaker 2: del Foy brother and brothers, that it's necessarily trying to

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Speaker 2: make a gendered claim. I think this is something that

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Speaker 2: we in languages like English that don't have gendered languages

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Speaker 2: struggle with more than those who come from gender languages

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Speaker 2: where they tend to understand more that you know, sometimes

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Speaker 2: a thing is just a thing and it has a

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Speaker 2: gendered ending for grammatical reasons, not for social reasons or

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Speaker 2: theological reasons. So when when Paul's speaking and he says

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Speaker 2: a del foy too often, I've seen where people will

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Speaker 2: take that to me and just he's only talking to

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Speaker 2: the men. It's brothers. Yeah, when the reality of gender

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Speaker 2: languages is is that for whatever reason, historically, and this

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Speaker 2: is case the case in all the gender languages that

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Speaker 2: I know or know of. Perhaps there's others that are

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Speaker 2: not like this, But when it when it gives you

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Speaker 2: a plural of mixed company, it just uses a masculine plural, right.

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Speaker 2: So it's things like that that we have to be

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Speaker 2: attentive to as well, when we make the kind of

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Speaker 2: claim that someone could say, well, no, look that's a

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Speaker 2: that's a gendered term right there. Well, well, okay, it's

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Speaker 2: a gender term because every term in that language is gendered.

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Speaker 2: A table is gendered, a tree is gendered. But that

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean you look at the table, you know, in

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Speaker 2: Spanish as a girl. It's just a table, and no

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Speaker 2: one looks at it does anything but a table anyway, yep.

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Speaker 1: And we do have some of those conventions in English,

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Speaker 1: although they're a little more colloquial. Usually for the end

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Speaker 1: of my teaching career, I got more careful about using

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Speaker 1: the word guys if I was referring to a mixed company, right,

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Speaker 1: guy is technically we're usually used in a for a male's,

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Speaker 1: but I would use it as sort of that collective

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Speaker 1: y'all right, And so I got more careful about doing that,

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Speaker 1: right with the non gendered languages. Usually what we end

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Speaker 1: up doing is like she or he or he or

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Speaker 1: she or male or female, Like we'll list both if

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Speaker 1: we want to make it clear that we're meaning both.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, and gendered languages. I'm there was a study

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Speaker 1: done on the prophetic books that actually looked at this

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Speaker 1: and demonstrated that when the masculine forms of the Hebrew

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Speaker 1: are used, so Hebrew has male female gender in the grammar,

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Speaker 1: when the masculine forms of those words were used to

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Speaker 1: refer to groups, it was clear that there were women

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Speaker 1: included in those groups. And so we actually have some

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Speaker 1: good exegetical evidence to suggest that this is what's happening,

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Speaker 1: at least in the Old Testament, and I would argue

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Speaker 1: it's the same in the New. It's hard to argue that,

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Speaker 1: adel Foy. In your example, Brothers, when Paul is writing

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Speaker 1: to the churches, for instance, he's not singling out all

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Speaker 1: the males who are involved in that church or only

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Speaker 1: addressing all the males that are involved in that church.

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Speaker 1: He's using that term collectively to refer to everyone in

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Speaker 1: that congregation. See. I think it's a good point, but

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Speaker 1: that is the kiss.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, if that is the case, the question before us,

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Speaker 2: I think doesn't change. And that's what is the text doing.

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Speaker 2: That is addressing men where they are, right, which I

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Speaker 2: think is a different question than does the text specifically

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Speaker 2: address this idea of masculinity. We've said as a general answer, no,

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Speaker 2: it does not. But that does not mean the same

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Speaker 2: thing as the text isn't talking to men. Of course,

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Speaker 2: is talking to men and it's talking to women, And

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Speaker 2: there's ways in which it's talking to us both at

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Speaker 2: the same time that can be directed towards us. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's really important to recognize that when we

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Speaker 2: mentioned paradigms in one of the previous episode, that that's

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Speaker 2: a good way to think through this. Right, that all

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Speaker 2: of these sorts of declarations and storytellings and letters and

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Speaker 2: so on and so forth that are going on in scripture,

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Speaker 2: they belong to a people in a place, and they

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Speaker 2: take the shape of the people in a place.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: The languages that are used, I would argue, Hebrew and Greek,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing inherently special about them. In some theological way,

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Speaker 2: they reflect the languages that are present and the modes

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Speaker 2: therefore within which people speak. Right. It's sort of the

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Speaker 2: idea that John Calvin he says that when when God

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Speaker 2: speaks to us, he speaks to us as a parent

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Speaker 2: to a child. And what he meant by that was

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Speaker 2: not apparently sort of pedantic kind of a way in

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Speaker 2: that particular instance. What he meant was, when a parent

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Speaker 2: has to explain something, you have to think, Okay, how

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Speaker 2: does an eight year old understand this concept?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: I can't answer this eight year old the way that

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Speaker 2: I would my graduate students. It's not going to work.

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Speaker 2: Or my eight year old just look at me and

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Speaker 2: she quite literally will say huh. So you got to

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Speaker 2: think about those sorts of things, right, And so John

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Speaker 2: Calvin's point was that when God's talking to us, he's

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Speaker 2: always speaking in a way that's accommodating to the fact

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Speaker 2: of our position. Right, We're not God. Okay, so how

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Speaker 2: does God explain this thing? Well, you know, it was like,

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Speaker 2: what I'm like with you is like a hen who

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Speaker 2: nestles you under her wing, right, a gendered comment, but

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Speaker 2: not a gendered meaning per se.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's important to recognize here that because

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Speaker 2: that's what the text is doing. The paradigm's idea for

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Speaker 2: us is to say we now live in particular places

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Speaker 2: in particular times and social settings, and we can't just

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Speaker 2: simply say that it's an easy move to say, Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: we understand in agriculturist society, for instance, we understand a

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Speaker 2: situation in which cities are themselves the entirety of a stronghold,

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Speaker 2: and cities have these walls like we have to begin

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Speaker 2: to think paradigmatically, how does that space intersect with our space?

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Speaker 1: And that's a challenge. Yeah, I mean, I think we

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Speaker 1: had this conversation last time, you know, where you had

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Speaker 1: brought up the notion of the bride of Christ, you know,

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Speaker 1: the church being the bride of Christ. You have this

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Speaker 1: in John's letters, I believe it's third John, where it's

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Speaker 1: written to the elect lady, and it's clear that it's

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Speaker 1: referring to the church as a whole. Again, we don't

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Speaker 1: take those references as saying, okay, what does it mean

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Speaker 1: for a man to be in a feminine institution or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Right, we recognize these for what they are.

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Speaker 1: They are really powerful metaphors and ways of thinking through

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Speaker 1: the relationship between Christ and Church that should have an

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Speaker 1: impact on us, should change the paradigms within which we think.

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Speaker 1: But they aren't ascribing some sort of femininity to the

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Speaker 1: church as a whole, as if that were clear. So

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Speaker 1: even if we were to argue that, the next logical

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Speaker 1: question this is where we run up against it with

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Speaker 1: masculine as well. It's like, okay, if we say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, being the bride of Christ implies of femininity. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what is that femininity? It's never defined in the biblical text.

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Speaker 1: You don't see it, you know, shaped anywhere. Really, even

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Speaker 1: if you went back into Proverbs, which might be you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the logical places to go if you're looking

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Speaker 1: for feminine images, you have lady Wisdom, Lady Folly, you

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Speaker 1: have the Proverbs thirty one woman. But arguably, I would

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Speaker 1: say those images in those texts are really more inclined

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Speaker 1: toward wisdom right and helping us understand the character of

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Speaker 1: wisdom and what wisdom entails than they are describing women

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Speaker 1: specifically or some sort of notion of the feminine specifically.

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Speaker 1: It would be foolish to think that, for instance, when

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Speaker 1: a man becomes wise, that automatically we should have to

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Speaker 1: ascribe some sort of femininity to him. You've got all

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Speaker 1: these sort of characters and uses of different gendered language

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Speaker 1: as we've been talking about, but also these male and

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Speaker 1: female symbols that are being used all over the place.

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Speaker 1: And I think part of my issue as I was

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Speaker 1: reading through a lot of the masculinity literature, is just

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Speaker 1: we don't see people applying those in the same way

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Speaker 1: as they seek to apply other areas. And so they

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Speaker 1: want to They would not have a problem saying no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: men could be wise, and yet how do you wrestle

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Speaker 1: them with lady wisdom? Right? Why isn't this a feminine characteristic?

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Speaker 1: Given that what Proverbs does with that as lady wisdom

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Speaker 1: throughout the book. But we don't wrestle with those things.

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Speaker 1: What we want to do is we want to pull

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Speaker 1: what we want to pull out of this. And when

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Speaker 1: we're saying that there isn't a biblical manhood in scripture,

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Speaker 1: that's really what we're talking about, This idea of parsing

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Speaker 1: these things out, distinguishing between faithful characteristics like wisdom, like obedience,

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Speaker 1: like subjection to one another. These aren't masculine or feminine characteristics.

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Speaker 1: They're just characteristics, and men and women may embody those differently.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why you have variation. For instance, in

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Speaker 1: the instructions to husbands versus wives, because there was something

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Speaker 1: going on in that setting that made that difference in

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Speaker 1: instruction in Ephesians five pertinent. Right, you see it there.

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Speaker 1: So there are differences, but that doesn't necessarily mean that

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Speaker 1: there's one way of doing it that means you're means

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Speaker 1: it's masculine. One way of doing it means it's feminine.

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Speaker 1: So I'll leave it there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it's instructive. The way that you

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Speaker 2: describe things, that's really instructive. I want to look at

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Speaker 2: both of those instances, Proverbs and Efesians. Yeah, in the

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Speaker 2: Ephesians setting, or sorry, let's cover with the prophets. In

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Speaker 2: the Proverb setting, the narrative form really does matter, and

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Speaker 2: the narrative form or framework that it's set in. As

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Speaker 2: the Book of Proverbs begin begins with a father talking

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Speaker 2: to his son.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: And as a father talking to his son, he now

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Speaker 2: lays before him the path of are you following lady

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Speaker 2: wisdom or lady folly? Here's the direction. Here's what the

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Speaker 2: direction of lady wisdom leads you to. Here's what the

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Speaker 2: direction of lady folly leads you to. And then the

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Speaker 2: climax of the book, or perhaps the conclusion of the book,

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Speaker 2: depending how you want to see it. Proverbs thirty one,

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Speaker 2: you have the woman we often think of as the

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Speaker 2: virtuous wife. The choice, the choices are all dictated by

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Speaker 2: that narrative form. One can very easily imagine the setting

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Speaker 2: of the book being a mother talking to her daughter,

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Speaker 2: and the moment you have a mother talking to her daughter,

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Speaker 2: it's now now here's whatever? That what's the equivalent sir,

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Speaker 2: sir folly and sir wisdom? Because how you would do

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Speaker 2: it right? And then the end would be the virtuous

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Speaker 2: husband right? The idea is precisely so. In other words,

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Speaker 2: the narrative form is setting things up as a particular

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Speaker 2: conversation that you're entering into, and that what that's what

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Speaker 2: dictates the other parts of it and to why they're

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Speaker 2: told in the way that they are. And to over

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Speaker 2: extend that creates more problems than it does solutions.

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Speaker 1: Correct if we if we do.

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Speaker 2: Over extend it, a significant question comes up. So are

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Speaker 2: the proverbs not for girls? Can a father or a

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Speaker 2: mother not teach their daughter? You know we both have

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Speaker 2: daughters and we both have sons. Right, you have ason,

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Speaker 2: I have sons. Are we only allowed to teach the

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Speaker 2: proverbs to the boys, not to the girls like that,

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Speaker 2: that's silliness, right, right, And when I'm talking to my girls,

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Speaker 2: it's important for them to understand the form of it

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Speaker 2: lest they think I don't am I chasing? Am I

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Speaker 2: chasing this woman who's described in these very negatively charged terms.

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Speaker 2: I know I'm not. Just of course, we understand paradigmatically,

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Speaker 2: there's a parallel at play to how this applies or

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Speaker 2: how we work this out when talking to our daughters. Right, yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: the Ephesian situation, as you point out, we tend to

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Speaker 2: read it, as we said previously, from our own social setting,

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Speaker 2: which is in and of itself not wrong. Right, that's

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Speaker 2: where we have to read it from, and that's where

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Speaker 2: we need to get meeting. But we forget there's a gap, right,

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Speaker 2: We forget that there's paradigms that need intersect or, as

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Speaker 2: Godamer said, horizons that need to be fused. And we

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Speaker 2: now read it as a straightforward letter in a way

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Speaker 2: that's written specifically to our social setting. But what if

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Speaker 2: Paul is writing from a place where there are gross

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Speaker 2: abuses and how husbands are treating their wives there are

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Speaker 2: gross abuses within which a husband sees himself lording over

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Speaker 2: his wife. And this is far from rhetorical. We actually

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Speaker 2: have a lot of historical data to say that is

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Speaker 2: in fact the situation then, right, Not that I'm commending

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Speaker 2: it for all of its successes, but if you do

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Speaker 2: want a picture of it. The HBO show rome very

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Speaker 2: good at showing this heavily masculine oriented environment and the

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Speaker 2: problems that it creates, not just for women but all

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Speaker 2: men who are not in upper echelons of society. Right.

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Speaker 2: And if Paul's now writing in this environment saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: husband's let's recalibrate, and it's especially more important for him

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Speaker 2: to recalib bury for the husbands there than it is

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Speaker 2: for the wives. Right, Yes, but if anything to the wives,

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Speaker 2: it's sort of the corrective and the settling ephesians of

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Speaker 2: you might be inclined to work off of the default

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Speaker 2: of the abuses that are around you. And when I

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Speaker 2: tell you submit to your husbands, I don't think that's

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Speaker 2: a completely objectivized term of This is what women do.

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Speaker 2: They are the submitters and husbands are not the submitters.

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Speaker 2: As we've already said that passage begins with submit to

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Speaker 2: one another, to everyone at a church. But if we're

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Speaker 2: in that sort of abusive setting, it makes sense that

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Speaker 2: the women are pushing against that. So now what Paul

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Speaker 2: says is, wives submit to your husbands to set up

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Speaker 2: the reality of I'm now resetting the husband's expectations in

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Speaker 2: a way in which he's now thinking of himself relative

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Speaker 2: to Christ. And I think for us that's what's instructive

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Speaker 2: here now to think about. If we're using these horizons,

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Speaker 2: what could it mean for men today. Let's really think

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Speaker 2: about the image of Christ that's commended to us and

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Speaker 2: how that contrasts with the sort of masculinity that's put

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Speaker 2: forward to us as the tough guy, the guy who

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Speaker 2: is in charge, right, yeah, Because I think we can

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Speaker 2: look at Jesus and say, yeah, in a real sense,

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Speaker 2: he was in charge, and yet nothing about that looks

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Speaker 2: the way that we expect.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting too in that Ephesians five passage.

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Speaker 1: The way I think of it is once the Christian

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Speaker 1: men begin to exercise their authority like Christ exercised his authority,

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Speaker 1: the women are now going to have a choice. And

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Speaker 1: I think what Paul is partly resisting there is We

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Speaker 1: don't want someone else to become the domineering party. We

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Speaker 1: don't just want to flip these two things so that

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the man is being told no,

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Speaker 1: act like Christ, and the woman says, oh good, here's

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Speaker 1: my opening. I'm going to take over. He's pushing toward

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Speaker 1: mutual submission, and the woman's role in that is to

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Speaker 1: continue to submit to the authority of the husband as

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Speaker 1: it's exercised with that image of Christ in mind. And

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Speaker 1: so the goal isn't to reverse the power relations within

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Speaker 1: the household. The goal is to create a situation in

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Speaker 1: which mutual submission makes sense and can actually be enacted.

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Speaker 1: And so we see even there this idea that mutual

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Speaker 1: submission coming about, and you can when we think about

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Speaker 1: it like that, which I actually think is an appropriate

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Speaker 1: way to think about it, given the historical background and

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Speaker 1: some of the dynamics that we read about in the

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Speaker 1: Parents Children text that comes in chapter six, as well

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Speaker 1: as the master bond Servant text that comes in chapter six,

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Speaker 1: I think when we read it like that, now, when

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Speaker 1: we fast forward into today's world, what we have is

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Speaker 1: a really instructive lesson of sitting back and saying, how

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Speaker 1: is it that I, as a husband exers do things

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Speaker 1: for my family right, for the good of my family,

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Speaker 1: and that may not always mean that I am making

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Speaker 1: the final decision on things. That may not always mean

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Speaker 1: that I am you know, you name it. Some of

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Speaker 1: these things we've gone through in the different biblical manhood conceptions. Right.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't mean that I'm bold all the time.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't mean that I'm you know, constantly you know,

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Speaker 1: pushing things forward and I'm like this sort of manly presence.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't mean that I only stay in spaces

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Speaker 1: that I'm comfortable in and I never go to the

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Speaker 1: nail salon of my family, you know, like whatever these

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Speaker 1: things are, right, it doesn't necessarily mean that. What it

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Speaker 1: means is that I'm constantly looking to do good for

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Speaker 1: my family period. And that is what it kind of

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Speaker 1: ends up looking like for us to be ahead like Christ,

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Speaker 1: is that we're constantly doing this for another entity, for

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Speaker 1: another person. Christ didn't come just for fun to hang

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Speaker 1: in the cross. He came for his people. He did

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Speaker 1: this for the body of Christ. And so I think

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Speaker 1: there's an underlying logic there that we don't want to miss. Right,

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Speaker 1: And then as wives you have the same paradigm. Now,

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Speaker 1: do I think that some of that?

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Speaker 2: Do?

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Speaker 1: I think some of this relates to Biblical manhood. I

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Speaker 1: tend to sort of want to say, of course, there's

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Speaker 1: always carryover in everything that we read, Right, it'd be

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Speaker 1: like me saying no Proverbs thirty one doesn't have anything

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Speaker 1: to say to men. That's not true, right, It has

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Speaker 1: something to say to men. But I think this is

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Speaker 1: specific to husbands and lives. It's it's addressing that specific relationship,

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Speaker 1: and anything we draw out of that really does need

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Speaker 1: to be recontextualized. It needs to be the pattern that's

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Speaker 1: pulled out. So we begin to understand, Okay, if I'm

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Speaker 1: a single man who's operating a business, what does this

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Speaker 1: really look like for me to uh interact as Christ

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Speaker 1: would interact in this setting? And how does this text

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Speaker 1: inform what I'm doing over here? Doesn't inform what I'm

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Speaker 1: doing over here? Of course it can, But I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's a stable sort of here's the way men act,

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Speaker 1: here's the way women act. Now go and do likewise?

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Speaker 1: Hope that Hope that makes sense for folks.

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Speaker 2: I think so, I think what you're describing as sort

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Speaker 2: of an informal negotiation right, where it's a it's a

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Speaker 2: recognition within a setting. So for the first part of

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Speaker 2: your comment of what can I do for the sake

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Speaker 2: of my family, Well, that's a recognition of needs, it's

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Speaker 2: a recognition of abilities, a recognition of what you need

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Speaker 2: to work on.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't just mean well I only do things according

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Speaker 2: to my strengths, but there's a recognition perhaps of you know,

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Speaker 2: if you have two partners and one of them is

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Speaker 2: able to do one thing better than the other, and

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Speaker 2: there's an informal negotiation of well, this is your strength,

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Speaker 2: you do that and I'll do this. It's sort of

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Speaker 2: the mentality that's at play because it's a sense of

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Speaker 2: the very fact of my presence in the environment, is

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Speaker 2: my receiving as an identity marker who I am from

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Speaker 2: my family.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: For instance, I'm not a father if I don't have kids. Right,

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Speaker 2: there is no husband that doesn't have a wife. There

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Speaker 2: is no wife that doesn't have a husband. There's no

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Speaker 2: mother that right. So the the very claim on my

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Speaker 2: being comes from that setting. And now it's a reciprocal

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Speaker 2: sort of thing of I get who I am from it,

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Speaker 2: and then I give back to it so that I'm

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Speaker 2: not merely defined by who I am visa via person,

401
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Speaker 2: but also now what I'm doing in that particular setting.

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Speaker 1: Right.

403
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Speaker 2: In my case, I'm certainly not the cook that you've

404
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Speaker 2: described from some of these shows that are quite out there,

405
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Speaker 2: and the ability these people have to just I've tasted

406
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Speaker 2: that and I know what's in there, and I'm gonna like,

407
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Speaker 2: that's never been precisely me. But I think I'm a

408
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Speaker 2: decent cook, yeah, And so it's I can use that

409
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Speaker 2: within the environment. But I also know that that means

410
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Speaker 2: sometimes what I think of as being a decent cook

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Speaker 2: is patterned to my particular tastes, right, and that doesn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily match what the kids are doing. Right. So now

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Speaker 2: there's that sort of in the sense that I received

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Speaker 2: myself from them. Can I be attentive to it so

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Speaker 2: that I say, obviously I can't please all four kids

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Speaker 2: at the same time, but can I adjust recipes in

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Speaker 2: a way that meets them and serves them? Right? I

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Speaker 2: think that's the sort of reciprocal mutuality that you know

419
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Speaker 2: is a is a learning process, which means it's not

420
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Speaker 2: just what I'm good at, it's what I have to

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Speaker 2: grow in right. I've been learning recently how to braid

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Speaker 2: my daughter's hairs to help them in that matter, and

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Speaker 2: it's it. You know, I've done it a number of

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Speaker 2: times at this point. It's way better than that first time.

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Speaker 2: The first time actually made my daughters laugh, you know.

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Speaker 2: But that's part of the process of, right, what do

427
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Speaker 2: I need to be in this environment? What I needed

428
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Speaker 2: to be was to be someone who can learn to

429
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Speaker 2: help braid my daughter's hair.

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Speaker 1: Right.

431
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: And that goes to me if we want to talk

432
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: about what is masculine, it's it's the willingness and ability

433
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: to step into that space and say, what do I

434
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: need to me? That's the pattern of the Jesus, who

435
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: was in the form of God, thought it not robbery

436
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 2: to be equal with God, but took the form of

437
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: a servant, but not just the form of a servant,

438
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: humbled himself all the way to the point of the cross.

439
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: Right to use a Philippians two dynamic and right before

440
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: that is when Paul tells us, imitate me, as imitate Christ. Right,

441
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 2: it's this notion of what do I need to be

442
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: in this environment? Yes, but there's no pre set what

443
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 2: that is? What that is in one household is very

444
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: different than another household. And by the way, that's going

445
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 2: to be very different if we're talking about sort of

446
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: a traditional Western household of two parents and two and

447
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 2: a half kids, whatever a half kid is, versus say

448
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: an Indian household where you have three generations living together

449
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: and perhaps uncles and aunts and cousins in the same house. Right,

450
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: that's going to change the dynamic of what does it

451
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: mean to live in this space.

452
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's interesting. We talked a little bit

453
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: about rhinesia or art on one of the previous episodes,

454
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: and this is really where I think the constructive aspect

455
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: comes in. So I was thinking about how to explain

456
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: this and that you know, I grew up in the

457
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: era of Michael ju and you often hear about what

458
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan does. You could watch Steph Curry is another example. Right,

459
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: he shoots like some thousand balls before practice or something

460
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: like that. Right, Like, these guys are putting in the work.

461
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: And you can name any any big athlete, you could

462
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: go to, any ballet dancer, you could go to any

463
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: anybody who's at the top of their profession. Right, they're

464
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: putting in the reps, Right, they're just doing the work.

465
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: And so if you want to be at the top

466
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: of that profession, if you want to be a great

467
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: basketball player, yes there's some genetics involved, right, but Muggsy Bogues,

468
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: who is the shortest basketball player I think ever to play,

469
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: sort of buckets yeah, professionally, right, So I mean it's

470
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: not all genetics. It's not like you have to be

471
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: a seven footer to play basketball. You can actually get

472
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: good and play, but it requires work. And so one

473
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: thing one might do is you go out and you'd

474
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: emulate one of these people who are at the top

475
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: of their profession. See this all the time in business

476
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: leaders right, you buy the oh what what are the

477
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: you know, the richest people on the planet, the most

478
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: successful people in the planet do before ten am, right,

479
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: and there's you know, you can emulate what it is

480
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: that they do. And the attempt there is to say

481
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: I want what they have, and so I need to

482
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: do what they do. Right. This is basically what na

483
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 1: Gerard was arguing. He's saying that a lot of times

484
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: what ends up happening is we think we want an object, right,

485
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: we want the money, we want the success, we want

486
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: the power, we want the position, whatever that is, but

487
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: he said that that object gets subtly like displaced by

488
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: a subject, the person who already has all of these things, right,

489
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: So the person who has the money, the person who

490
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: has the success, the person who has the position. We're

491
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: emulating them, and as we emulate them, we take up

492
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: their patterns of life. We pick up some you know,

493
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: we look and see what kind of character traits do

494
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: they have. We think about their ambitions and we say, Okay,

495
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: if they had that ambition, I should have that ambition.

496
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: And we're surrendering our own sort of thought process about

497
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: what our lives should be and where we'd like to

498
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: go and how we want to get there. And we're

499
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: substituting any independent thoughts we might have with what other

500
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: people have already done, because we want to go where

501
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: they've already been. We want to be where they already are.

502
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: This to me is sort of what we're doing when

503
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: we're following Christ. We're looking at Jesus and we're saying, Okay,

504
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: my ambitions should no longer be my ambitions. I should

505
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: no longer determine my ambitions. I need to surrender my

506
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: ambitions to the ambition of Christ. So what are some

507
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: of those ambitions. Well, as you just said, you know,

508
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: Philippians too, right, the equality with God was not something

509
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: to be grasped. Many in your Testament commentators would say

510
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: that what that really means is that he didn't see

511
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 1: equality with God to be something that was kept for

512
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: his own advantage. And so he's going to give this

513
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: away and come down and humble himself for a people

514
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: who are ultimately going to be part of the church. Right,

515
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: He's giving himself up for the body of Christ. Right, Okay,

516
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: So if that's the ambition, that sort of changes things

517
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: for all of us, If this becomes our overriding sort

518
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: of point of being here, that we are to glorify God,

519
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: that we are to give ourselves away for to build

520
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: the Body of Christ, that we are to have compassion

521
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: on the lost, we are to you know, you could

522
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: name a million different things that Christ did, none of

523
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: which are male or female, all of which are uniquely

524
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: Christ Like. That's what I think we're doing now as

525
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: we go about doing that. Is there a way that

526
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: as a male, you know, who has a particular education,

527
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: who has a particular socioeconomic background, who has a particular

528
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: position within society that I'm going to enact that differently

529
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: than someone else, absolutely, right, those are going to take

530
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: on very particular instantiations, right the way I what happens

531
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 1: when I am imitating Christ is going to look different

532
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: than what happens when Paul is imitating Christ. Right, we

533
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: already see these distinctions between like Peter and Paul. Peter

534
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: takes along a married wife, Paul doesn't. Right, But Paul's

535
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: rationale for not doing so has absolutely nothing to do

536
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: with a disagreement on whether you should or shouldn't be married.

537
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: It's for the sake of the Gospel. Like, he's doing

538
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: these things because he's operating under what I would call

539
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: theologic right. He's thinking theologically about what he's doing, what

540
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: rights he should or shouldn't pick up, based on whether

541
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: or not he feels those will advance the Gospel, whether

542
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: they will help the Body of Christ grow, whether they

543
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: will cause someone to stumble. These are all decisions that

544
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: he's making. If you read his epistles, it's really difficult

545
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: to miss. Right. So, what he's doing is he's trying

546
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: to emulate Jesus's self sacrifice and self giving as Paul

547
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: the apostle, Right, and so you and I would do that.

548
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: We try to emulate Christ as James, as Ashesh as whomever.

549
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: These are not male female, They are individual, right, we

550
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 1: do it as individuals, and we do it within the

551
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: roles and positions that God places us in. So that's

552
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: sort of the constructive way I think to think about

553
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: this is we're looking at Jesus not as man, as male,

554
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: I should say, certainly not as masculine, but we're looking

555
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: at him as human and recognizing that he is the

556
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: one that gives us right ambition. He's the one that

557
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: sets right agenda. He's the one that points toward the

558
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: right trajectory, and then we follow after him, imitate him,

559
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: and allow that imitation to begin to shift and change

560
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: the way we think about what we should do, what

561
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: we can do, how we can do that. All those

562
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: different areas.

563
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're pointing out Peter and Paul in

564
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: parallel is instructive to the difference, right that, Yeah, they're both,

565
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: they're both men. What that looks like for them and

566
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: their settings is different precisely because of this again informal

567
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 2: negotiation of them in their places. That's true on the

568
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 2: marital front, where Peter's married and Paul is not. It's true. Apparently,

569
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 2: from as best we can tell their role within the church,

570
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: Peter seems to be more centrally located, whereas Paul is

571
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: constantly on the move.

572
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

573
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: I don't know that we can look at either one

574
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: of them as this is the model. They're both models

575
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: in their own way. If we can begin to extract

576
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: what is it about their behavior, what is it about

577
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: their movement their lack of movement that is faithful And

578
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: it's the idea of faithfulness that's a play, right, It's

579
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: the ability to recognize what is needed of them. Paul

580
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: recognized what it was needed of him was to push

581
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: the boundary of this gospel that began among the Jews,

582
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: to take it among the gentiles. What tradition tells us

583
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: that someone like Thomas pushed it in another way, right,

584
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: he pushed it outside the boundary. If Paul was within

585
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 2: the Roman Empire, Thomas pushed it outside the Roman Empire.

586
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: We see someone like John, who seems to be the

587
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: one disciple or apostle who didn't die early from some

588
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: form of martyrdom, to someone who becomes apparently an elder

589
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: almost to the end of that first century AD. I

590
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: don't know that we can look at any one of

591
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: them more faithful than the others, right apart from an

592
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: individual moment, right, we can think of the Jerusalem Council

593
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: where Paul had to call out Peter. Yes, but as

594
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 2: a general trajectory of their roles, it was them recognizing

595
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: where they were. And we haven't yet gotten into the

596
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: fact that the New Testament mentions local churches.

597
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: Right.

598
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 2: There's Timothy, there's Titus, who apparently are commended in particular

599
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: church environments. There are men and there are women who

600
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 2: are both commended in their church environment for their role

601
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: within it, without prescribing at any given moment of therefore,

602
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: this is what you do to either men or to women.

603
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: Right now, Some might respond, what about first Timothy and Titus,

604
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: where it seems like there's more. That's something we can

605
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: get to later, But at least at the moment, what

606
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 2: we see as a pattern is there's no singular narrative

607
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: that's put forth for how to act. It's more the

608
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: joining reality, the faithfulness. And that's before we even consider

609
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: they just live in a different world, a different basic

610
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: cadence to the world in terms of pre industrial by

611
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: a lot a bit different reality to the world of

612
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 2: a world that doesn't know Jesus at all, right, a

613
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: colonial environment, but a colonial environment that had nothing to

614
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 2: do with the message of Jesus versus a modern colonial

615
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: environment that, for whatever its reasons, were predicated upon spreading.

616
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 1: The word of Jesus.

617
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we just have the basic reality of

618
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 2: the political differences, right, where Paul has no political agency

619
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: apart from being able to appeal to his citizenship. Right,

620
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: for many of us we have real political agency, some

621
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: more than others, but we have real political agency, right,

622
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 2: whether it be a simple the simple reality of taking

623
00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 2: a ballot and voting to things like protests, right, that

624
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: changes all sorts of things. So to look for one

625
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: core idea in the midst of all this jumble, and

626
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 2: that's just the beginning of the jumble, wouldn't even make sense,

627
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 2: you know, we'd have if that was the purpose of

628
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 2: the Bible. It would be a really long long text

629
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: to begin to nail it every distinct dynamic, even to

630
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: those things that hadn't yet begun to exist.

631
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: Right.

632
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: And so back to the paradigm, Right, the idea player

633
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: of this faithfulness is that it's a recognition. What is

634
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: it that I am able to give in this environment

635
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: for the sake of my family, for the sake of Jesus,

636
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 2: for the sake of both in conjunction. Right, as Paul

637
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 2: pointed out, there were things he could give that someone

638
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: like Peter couldn't because he chose to forego marriage. He

639
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: commended to the Carinthian Church. You know, who's willing to

640
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 2: join me in this task. It's a good task if

641
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: you can do it right. All these dynamics right have

642
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: have have so many qualifications that you can't just simply

643
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 2: say a man looks like this and put a stamp

644
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: upon it. What you have to do is have that

645
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 2: wisdom dynamic of being able to discern what can I

646
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: give in this environment relative to what's around me and

647
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: who's around me, and what they're giving and what I

648
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: received from them.

649
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think that even what you're saying there,

650
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: like when you mentioned one Timothy III and Titus, which

651
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: we can get into later, you know, instruction to elders.

652
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: Let's say, let's just take for a moment the assumption

653
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: that this is only to men. Right, If we assume

654
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: that it's still within a relational context, you're occupying a

655
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: particular space in relation to the church, and you're being

656
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: given very specific instructions about what that is. And so

657
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: it isn't that these now are instructions for any man.

658
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: It's now instructions for elders. And I think we see

659
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: that over and over and over and over again, is

660
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: that the more specific instructions are actually within a given relationship.

661
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: And so I think it's very difficult for us to

662
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: assume that just because a husband or a son, or

663
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: a father and whatever is supposed to act in a

664
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: very particular way in relation to a wife or a

665
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: you know, a parent, or a son or a brother

666
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: or whatever it is, there's a move that we have

667
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: to make there, like we have to recognize the paradigm

668
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: within that and say, okay, this isn't about manhood. This

669
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: is about how we interact within relationships where there is

670
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: a let's say, a power dynamic of sorts that happens.

671
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: If you just took the fathers and sons so to

672
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: passages and you said, well, what would that ever say, right,

673
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: don't exasperate your children. Well maybe you shouldn't be exasperating anyone,

674
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: but that you know, this text is saying, don't exasperate

675
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: your children but it's not like you can go, well,

676
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: this kid, this isn't my child, so I can exasperate

677
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: this person all I want. Right, there may be a

678
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: unique dynamic in which fathers are exasperating their children that

679
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: needs to be addressed, and that that dynamic needs to change,

680
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily mean that exasperating anyone else is okay.

681
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: And so we can see the paradigm clearly there when

682
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: we pull it out, But we also need to recognize

683
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: it's not like it's, uh, mothers, it's okay for you

684
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: to exasperate your daughters like that's that's lunacy, Like all

685
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: of it needs to be sort of pulled out in

686
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: that paradigm, and you say, look, this isn't just about

687
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: male's females. It's not even about males are particularly susceptible

688
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: to exasperating their sons. And so that's why it's written

689
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: this way. Right. There may be certain cases where that

690
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: comes up, but I don't I mean, as a I

691
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: who's got daughters and sons, I would say that it's

692
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: just as easy for me to exasperate any of my children,

693
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: like you know, how to get on all their nerves.

694
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: It's okay because it's not a and I would think

695
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: my wife's the same way. So there's just this sort

696
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: of turn that we need to make to say, Look,

697
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: if Christ is who we're supposed to imitate, then what

698
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: we're constantly doing is asking ourselves, how is it that

699
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: I can give myself away for the other in a

700
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: way that will be redemptive to them? Maybe in its

701
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: most simplistic terms, that's all it really is, and that

702
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: applies to male and female all at the same time.

703
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: That's probably too brief, it's too much abbreviation, but that's

704
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: sort of the trajectory I think the way we need

705
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 1: to start thinking about this. And I would just point

706
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: out here that if we overlay and say, well, men

707
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: are really supposed to do it this way, so when

708
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: we imitate here, you have to have this layer of

709
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: masculinity on top of this. That's actually a really big distraction, agreed.

710
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: It draws It draws attention away from what we're really

711
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing, which is allowing Christ to set

712
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: the agendas imitate him and not worry about whether or

713
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: not I feel comfortable in painting, you know, my walls

714
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: mouth or going to a nail salon or you know,

715
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: any of the other things we've kind of seen in

716
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: a lot of this literature. None of that really makes

717
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: a lot of sense once it's boiled down.

718
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think if I can pull back the

719
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 2: analogy you used earlier, you appealed to Muggsy Bogues, five

720
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 2: foot three, Muggsy Bogues and a land of giants. Right,

721
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 2: professional basketball, to be six foot is to be short,

722
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: right crazy? And to imagine this five to three guy

723
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 2: who made it. Uh, the skill this guy should just

724
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: inherently had to have had is an important part of

725
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: the equation. But on top of that, to your point,

726
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 2: the amount of work you to put in, I guarantee

727
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: on some levels he had to work harder than say

728
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: John Stockton at six'. TWO i believe he was something around, there,

729
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 2: Right it was an all time great just to make,

730
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: it just to be. There, Right there's this iconic picture

731
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: of him Guarding Michael, jordan Where Michael jordan was an

732
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 2: average height basketball, player and he's towering over, him and

733
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: All michael does is he sticks the ball hype in

734
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: the air and he's Hunting muggsy like you can't get. This,

735
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: then the amount of work that goes into that in

736
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: addition to the talent is really important to recognize because

737
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: those things together set a lot of things in. Play

738
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 2: if we were to say the only way you can

739
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: be good as a as a man is to be

740
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: someone who plays in THE, nba we've just lopped off

741
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: a whole group of people that maybe are six feet

742
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: tall but don't have the.

743
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: Talent.

744
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 2: Right we've lopped off a whole group of people that

745
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,879
Speaker 2: maybe are really, talented but they're five to, three right

746
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: and didn't have the breaks or the hard work euthic

747
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: Of Muggsy. Bogues my point here is that there's there's

748
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: so many layers that go into, this and that's WHAT

749
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: i take you to be, Saying, james that when we

750
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 2: when we try to get overly specific with these are

751
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: the markers of truly being a, man what we end

752
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: up doing is taking for granted that there's those are

753
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 2: just not options that are open to every person who is, male, right,

754
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,280
Speaker 2: Right and in, fact some of those things might actually

755
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 2: be open options.

756
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: To people who are.

757
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,439
Speaker 2: Female and what we've now done to, them as we've, said,

758
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 2: well for you to exhibit that quality makes you more

759
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: like a man than a. Woman Right that in that

760
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 2: and of itself creates, this, yes this headspace that's entirely

761
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: unhelpful regardless of where you are on the reality. Here

762
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: and what, if just what if we were to recognize

763
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 2: that people are different and we can encourage them within

764
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 2: that to be the fullest of who they. ARE i

765
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: just wonder if we had done that as a church for,

766
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 2: longer might we have had men who are very different

767
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,959
Speaker 2: from each other who are quite happy to be able

768
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: to affirm each, other and women who are very different

769
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: from each other who are quite happy to affirm each

770
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 2: other As women's sort of a fool's question that we

771
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: don't live in that, world but it's not too. Late what?

772
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: If, WELL i think you, KNOW i was always a big.

773
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: Fan WHENEVER i Taught romans to, undergraduates we'd start with

774
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: chapters fourteen and, fifteen and we'd end chapters fourteen and,

775
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: fifteen BECAUSE i always felt fourteen and fifteen were the

776
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 1: Where paul really got it down to brass. Tacks fourteen

777
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 1: and fifteen is the weak strong. Argument he's urging these

778
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: people To he's urging the strong to bear with the.

779
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: Week he's urging the week not to judge the. Strong

780
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: he's calling them to a harmonious community, together not of,

781
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: judgment not of and not telling, them, hey if you see,

782
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: sin just ignore it or something like, That, Right but

783
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,479
Speaker 1: what he's trying to get them understand is that these

784
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: differences shouldn't create disunity within The body Of, christ that

785
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: these differences should actually condition the way that your strength is,

786
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: Exercised that these differences should actually condition the way that

787
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: the weak view the, Strong like these differences are to

788
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: be enacted within The body In christ in a different.

789
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: Way AND i always felt like when you started there

790
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: With romans and then you went back and you started,

791
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: reading you, know some of the other aspects of, it it,

792
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: was you, know the jew gentile sort of. Dynamics in

793
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: the first part of the. Book what you're really, Seeing

794
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,919
Speaker 1: paul do is get to an even playing, field, right

795
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: that all of us are in this, together that we've

796
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: all been in this together from the, beginning that, yes

797
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: there were certain advantages to Being, jewish but at the

798
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 1: end of the, day we're all saved by grace through,

799
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: faith and so what does this, mean, well and then

800
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: you get back to fourteen and, fifteen what does it?

801
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: Mean it means that the differences that we exhibit in

802
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: community are to be met with, charity with, love with.

803
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: Respect where to navigate those differences in ways that do

804
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: not cause other people to, stumble because at the end

805
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: of the, day their conscience is judged by The, lord

806
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: not by. You and so let's just make sure that

807
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: we're cultivating growth within the body Of. Christ we're actually

808
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: trying to help one. Another AND i just Think romans

809
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 1: does that. Beautifully but you really have to almost, START

810
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: i found with fourteen and, fifteen otherwise you get kind

811
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: of bogged down in the history of theology and all

812
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: that kind of fun stuff you have to go through

813
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: to get to. It but, yeah reading fourteen and fifteen

814
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: first almost sets the. Framework AND i think that's sort

815
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: of where we are. Here, it's you, know we're trying

816
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: to get to a point where we're, saying Imitate, christ,

817
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: right and allow that imitation Of christ to set your,

818
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: agenda to curtail your, ambitions to change your, ambitions whatever

819
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: it means to Imitate. Christ that's What i'm going to.

820
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: Do and IF i have to slough off other, things

821
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: that's What i'll do. Too and now this changes the

822
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: way that we relate to one another, slowly but surely it.

823
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: Will AND i think that's really the, point whereas if

824
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: we were substitute, masculinity be A christian man on top of,

825
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: this where we've shown throughout this series that that's notoriously

826
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: difficult to, define, Right biblical, masculinity at the very, least

827
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: is notoriously difficult to. Define Following christ isn't that, Hard

828
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: it's not that hard to, understand whereas, being you, know

829
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: a masculine dude. Is it's an, amorphous ambiguous. Concept and

830
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: so why would we try for that when we barely

831
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: understand what it is and where it's. Going when we

832
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: already have a picture given to us and are told

833
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: in scripture to follow this, person imitate this, person do

834
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: what this person. Did we already know what we're supposed to.

835
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: Do we don't need the extra. Framing and SO i

836
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: would argue that it's actually detrimental to put the masculine

837
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: piece Onto christianity because it's a wrong framing and it's

838
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: distracting us from where we're really supposed to, go which

839
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: is is Imitating, christ being self giving and doing these

840
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: sort of ongoing negotiations right within community to build up

841
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 1: the body Of. Christ even if it's to our own.

842
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: Detriment so, Yes SO i think in some.

843
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 2: A in order for us to really Understand jesus is

844
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: instructive to every single. Person, yeah we have to peel

845
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 2: off that sort of masculine and masculinity. Filter. Yes but

846
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 2: in addition to, THAT i like your point about it's

847
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: it's easier just to Take jesus As jesus and to Imitate,

848
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 2: jesus BECAUSE i take it what you mean by by

849
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 2: the easiness there. Is this isn't like asking the average

850
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: person to go hang with a bunch OF nba players

851
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 2: in a pickup game of, basketball, right something that most

852
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 2: of us don't have the skills to.

853
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: Do.

854
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: Right the difficulty Of jesus is encapsulated by the, rich young, ruler,

855
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: yes who had a wilfulness. Problem it's not a call upon,

856
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 2: talent it's not a call upon having one set of

857
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: strengths versus another set of. Strengths it was just a

858
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: matter of are you willing to do? It?

859
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: Yeah and.

860
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 2: The difficulty with the masculinity filter is that it actually

861
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 2: is outside the skill set of a large number of. People, right,

862
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: right you just can't do. IT i, MEAN i think

863
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: of a really good friend of. Mine if we think

864
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 2: about something as simple as lifting. Weights WHO i lifted

865
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 2: weights with him for years and you would never know

866
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 2: it looking at. Him his frame was the tiniest frame

867
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 2: you'll ever. See and maybe he'll listen to this and

868
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 2: he'll Know i'm talking about. Him sorry about, That but

869
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 2: he was in there and he was, working AND i

870
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: know he was, working he was. Alongside he was never

871
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: going to he was never going to Lift James spencerwaight

872
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: just wasn't gonna. Happen it wasn't his. Frame but you

873
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 2: don't want to put that kind of filter on, it,

874
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 2: right that kind of filter that's based upon, personality that's

875
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: based upon its skills, abilities and that's not at all

876
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: What jesus did for. Him it was a matter of,

877
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 2: wilfulness which is, hard but it's a different kind of.

878
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: Hard, WELL i think it's no, mistake and we can

879
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 1: kind of maybe close up with, this BUT i don't

880
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: think it's any mistake that the rich young ruler narrative

881
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 1: in scripture is juxtaposed with the children coming To. Jesus,

882
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 1: right they're coming as completely, vulnerable completely, dependent without. Anything

883
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: they're just, kids they have, nothing and these are the

884
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: type of, people the, vulnerable the, dependent the people who

885
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: are willing to come with no inconmferences To. Jesus these

886
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: are the people who are the kingdom Of. God the

887
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 1: folks like the rich young, ruler who are dependent on

888
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: their wealth to a large, degree and they've cultivated a

889
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: dependence on their, wealth they are going to have a

890
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: much harder time entering The kingdom Of god because they

891
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: are refusing to let go of what they need to

892
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: let go of in order to really truly give themselves

893
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: fully To. Christ AND i think that's the point of

894
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: those two narratives In chuck's. Position and, so, yeah that

895
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: is WHAT i mean by. Easier it's you, know IF

896
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: i had to live up to the standards Of olympic,

897
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: Weightlifters i'm. Done and so these arbitrary lines that were

898
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: drawing for other men are, unnecessary, unhealthy and. Unhelpful AND

899
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: i think they're going to lead us down a path

900
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: of wrecking The church as opposed to building The body Of.

901
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: Christ we know how to do, this like scriptures very

902
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 1: clear on. It Imitrate christ to follow, him be self,

903
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 1: giving love one, another Love. God like we know all

904
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:02,720
Speaker 1: of this. Stuff that's very clear, Masculinity biblical, Masculinity biblical

905
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: manhood completely, unclear confusing most of the, time full of

906
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: bravado and bull, crap like it's just a completely unnecessary.

907
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: Paradigm AND i just think that what we're putting back

908
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: in place if we take away biblical manhood and we

909
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: put this back in, place where we're putting back in

910
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: place is, discipleship learning to live under the authority For

911
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: christ and allowing him and his the paradigm that he

912
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: said guide the course of our. Lives you want to

913
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: take a second to thank the team At Life Audio christian.

914
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: Podcast this Is if you go to life audio dot,

915
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: com you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts hung

916
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: in there with. Us they've got shows About bible parenting everybody.

917
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: Else we're going to continue this year is we're going

918
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,800
Speaker 1: to actually start doing a little bit More Exe jesus

919
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: of certain passages and looking at specific passages here now

920
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: that we've kind of gone through the the the visionary

921
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: portion of its bost of this, series so stick with

922
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: us and come back on the next. Episode take care of.

923
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: Everybody m