1 00:00:05,809 --> 00:00:09,300 Speaker 1: We can sometimes become so focused on living well in 2 00:00:09,380 --> 00:00:13,379 Speaker 1: this world that we've forgotten there's an unseen world where 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: we most truly belong. Hello, friends. I'm Alan Fadling, and 4 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:20,779 Speaker 1: you're listening to the Unhurried Living Podcast, where we inspire 5 00:00:20,820 --> 00:00:25,070 Speaker 1: you to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. For 6 00:00:25,090 --> 00:00:28,700 Speaker 1: many Christians, heaven has become little more than a destination 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,250 Speaker 1: after death, but heaven is also a present reality, a 8 00:00:34,350 --> 00:00:40,030 Speaker 1: spiritual world woven into the ordinary world around us. Recovering 9 00:00:40,130 --> 00:00:43,729 Speaker 1: this vision of heaven invites us to see our lives 10 00:00:43,850 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: differently as a pilgrimage of the soul toward union with God. Today, 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm talking with pastor and author Brian Zond about his 12 00:00:53,980 --> 00:00:59,620 Speaker 1: new book, Unseen Existences of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine 13 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:03,470 Speaker 1: Mystery in All Things. We'll explore what it means to 14 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: recover a sense of transcendence, to live more attentively to 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,630 Speaker 1: God's presence, and to remember that our deepest calling is 16 00:01:11,690 --> 00:01:15,729 Speaker 1: not simply to accomplish more, but to become the people 17 00:01:15,790 --> 00:01:19,550 Speaker 1: God created us to be. After a brief word from 18 00:01:19,630 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: our sponsor, we'll continue with this episode. My guest today 19 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,990 Speaker 1: is Brian Zond. founder and lead pastor of Word of 20 00:01:35,050 --> 00:01:36,010 Speaker 1: Life Church in St. 21 00:01:36,090 --> 00:01:37,069 Speaker 2: Joseph, Missouri. 22 00:01:38,130 --> 00:01:42,330 Speaker 1: Brian is a pastor, theologian, and author whose writing draws 23 00:01:42,450 --> 00:01:46,420 Speaker 1: deeply from the wisdom of the historic Christian tradition. This 24 00:01:46,500 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: is Brian's third visit to the Unhurried Living podcast, and 25 00:01:50,060 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: we've previously talked about his books When Everything's on Fire 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: and The Wood Between the Worlds, and I'm delighted today 27 00:01:57,420 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: to welcome him back to talk about his latest book, 28 00:02:01,270 --> 00:02:06,460 Speaker 1: unseen existences. One of Bryan's concerns in this book is 29 00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: that Christianity can become little more than a program for 30 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: personal improvement or social change. Now, personal growth and social 31 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,790 Speaker 1: responsibility matter, of course, but neither of these fully captures 32 00:02:20,870 --> 00:02:25,269 Speaker 1: the depth of our Christian calling. Bryan reminds us that 33 00:02:25,389 --> 00:02:28,070 Speaker 1: our faith is rooted in a reality that is far 34 00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: greater than than what we can see or measure or accomplish. 35 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: I especially appreciate Brian's emphasis on spiritual formation as something 36 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:43,100 Speaker 1: much deeper than mere self-improvement. He draws from the wisdom 37 00:02:43,139 --> 00:02:46,460 Speaker 1: of the ancient church to remind us that we are 38 00:02:46,540 --> 00:02:52,700 Speaker 1: being formed for communion with God. This is a lifelong 39 00:02:52,780 --> 00:02:58,669 Speaker 1: journey that invites us into wonder, attentiveness, and a growing awareness. 40 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:02,730 Speaker 1: of God's presence in the midst of ordinary life. I 41 00:03:02,810 --> 00:03:06,470 Speaker 1: think you'll find Brian to be a thoughtful and imaginative 42 00:03:06,530 --> 00:03:10,450 Speaker 1: guide who helps us see our lives, our world, and 43 00:03:10,570 --> 00:03:14,570 Speaker 1: our relationship with God in a larger and more hopeful light. 44 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: And now, my conversation with Brian Zond. So Brian, it 45 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,100 Speaker 1: is a great treat to have another conversation. I've really 46 00:03:23,180 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: enjoyed reading your new book, Unseen Existences. So welcome. 47 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:29,820 Speaker 2: Thank you, Alan. Good to be with you. 48 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I love starting a conversation about a book 49 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: by asking if you could share a little bit of 50 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: either the story of how it came to be or 51 00:03:41,260 --> 00:03:44,890 Speaker 1: the need that sort of you sensed as you wrote it. 52 00:03:46,260 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. I felt like heaven had gone missing in a 53 00:03:54,600 --> 00:04:00,780 Speaker 2: lot of serious theological discussion. And I mean, I understand why. 54 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,500 Speaker 2: I kind of know what happened. And that is that 55 00:04:04,540 --> 00:04:09,540 Speaker 2: the ways that heaven has been talked about has been 56 00:04:09,820 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: either inadequate or even embarrassing. And so there's the escapist heaven. 57 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:17,110 Speaker 2: We just want to get out of here, fly away. 58 00:04:17,250 --> 00:04:21,810 Speaker 2: And it's sort of a dismissal of any concern for 59 00:04:21,870 --> 00:04:25,830 Speaker 2: this world, this good world that is the creation of 60 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:30,540 Speaker 2: our Father. Or there is the sensationalist heaven. You see 61 00:04:30,580 --> 00:04:33,260 Speaker 2: these books. They're usually on the New York Times bestsellers. 62 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,070 Speaker 2: You know, my 30 minutes in heaven and somebody's, you know, 63 00:04:36,290 --> 00:04:39,109 Speaker 2: come back to report on the streets of gold and 64 00:04:39,130 --> 00:04:42,050 Speaker 2: the pearly gates or whatever. And then there's just the 65 00:04:42,170 --> 00:04:46,570 Speaker 2: sentimentalist approach to heaven that maybe can best be communicated 66 00:04:46,650 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: by the memes you'll see on social media of the 67 00:04:50,020 --> 00:04:54,100 Speaker 2: departed rock stars now all jamming together on pillowy clouds 68 00:04:54,180 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: in heaven. And if that's the only way heaven is 69 00:04:57,779 --> 00:05:02,510 Speaker 2: talked about, then I understand that people will just maybe 70 00:05:02,570 --> 00:05:06,310 Speaker 2: sort of, if they're more serious-minded, that they just will 71 00:05:06,350 --> 00:05:11,690 Speaker 2: not engage in that. But that is too great a loss. 72 00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 2: And so I thought, well, I want to try to 73 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,900 Speaker 2: talk about heaven in a way that is scriptural, that 74 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,930 Speaker 2: is serious-minded. that is engaging and that is true to 75 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,109 Speaker 2: the long history of Christian theology. So that was as 76 00:05:26,170 --> 00:05:32,430 Speaker 2: much as anything the motivation. I'll add this. To say 77 00:05:32,450 --> 00:05:35,210 Speaker 2: the book's about heaven is fair enough, but it really 78 00:05:35,250 --> 00:05:39,750 Speaker 2: has a dual theme. The original title for the book 79 00:05:39,810 --> 00:05:44,570 Speaker 2: was Paths of Unseen Existences, which comes from a line 80 00:05:44,610 --> 00:05:47,370 Speaker 2: of poetry from Walt Whitman, which is the epigraph of 81 00:05:47,430 --> 00:05:49,710 Speaker 2: the book. I might even just read that. 82 00:05:50,450 --> 00:05:51,010 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 83 00:05:52,470 --> 00:05:56,710 Speaker 2: This is from Walt Whitman's– it's not the epigraph for 84 00:05:56,750 --> 00:06:01,660 Speaker 2: the book. They changed it. It's the epigraph for the prelude. 85 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 2: You paths worn in irregular hollows by the roadsides. I 86 00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: believe you are latent with unseen existences. You are so 87 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,460 Speaker 2: dear to me. And so I originally called the book 88 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,900 Speaker 2: Paths of Unseen Existences. The publisher shortened it to Unseen Existences, 89 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:24,070 Speaker 2: which was probably– wise move, but then you lose the 90 00:06:24,190 --> 00:06:27,660 Speaker 2: idea that it's talking about two things, the unseen existence 91 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 2: that we can refer to as the heavens or the 92 00:06:30,339 --> 00:06:34,260 Speaker 2: spiritual realm or the other world, but that this life 93 00:06:34,540 --> 00:06:40,380 Speaker 2: is also understood as a pilgrimage, a journey toward our 94 00:06:40,500 --> 00:06:45,550 Speaker 2: true telos of union with God in the eternal realm 95 00:06:45,580 --> 00:06:47,490 Speaker 2: of the heavens. So anyway, that's the background on what 96 00:06:47,529 --> 00:06:48,970 Speaker 2: was motivating me to write the book. 97 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that. And I can appreciate that some 98 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,490 Speaker 1: of those visions of heaven you share don't seem substantial 99 00:06:56,589 --> 00:06:59,130 Speaker 1: enough to hold our interest very long. 100 00:06:59,350 --> 00:07:00,090 Speaker 2: Right. 101 00:07:00,110 --> 00:07:04,570 Speaker 1: Whereas what you're describing, there's something meaty and lasting and 102 00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:07,450 Speaker 1: worthy of our attention. 103 00:07:08,190 --> 00:07:09,310 Speaker 2: I hope so. I'm trying. 104 00:07:09,410 --> 00:07:09,570 Speaker 3: Yeah. 105 00:07:10,010 --> 00:07:10,590 Speaker 2: Yeah. 106 00:07:11,210 --> 00:07:11,390 Speaker 3: Well. 107 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: In the book, I appreciated this sentence. You said that 108 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,770 Speaker 1: without metaphysics, Christianity is reduced to mere ethics. You also 109 00:07:20,830 --> 00:07:26,270 Speaker 1: suggest that without transcendence, Christianity can deteriorate into politics. Can 110 00:07:26,290 --> 00:07:27,350 Speaker 1: you say more about that? 111 00:07:27,570 --> 00:07:30,130 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad that you noticed because I like those sentences. 112 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: I do too, very much. 113 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,020 Speaker 2: Sure, Christianity has an ethical component, or maybe I could 114 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:44,230 Speaker 2: better say, that Christianity should and must inform our ethics. 115 00:07:45,230 --> 00:07:50,870 Speaker 2: And likewise, I think Christianity should inform our politics. But 116 00:07:50,930 --> 00:07:58,740 Speaker 2: without transcendence, without the idea that through Christian faith, we 117 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,700 Speaker 2: are trafficking in two worlds simultaneously, the seen and unseen, 118 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:06,900 Speaker 2: the earthly and the heavenly, then pretty soon all you're 119 00:08:06,940 --> 00:08:13,660 Speaker 2: left with is ethics and politics. And then Christianity itself, 120 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:16,420 Speaker 2: the faith itself becomes extraneous and you can just sort 121 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,310 Speaker 2: of do away with it. Or it's just used as sort. 122 00:08:21,140 --> 00:08:21,660 Speaker 4: Of a, I. 123 00:08:21,580 --> 00:08:25,750 Speaker 2: Don't know, as an endorsement for whatever your ethical or 124 00:08:25,790 --> 00:08:28,370 Speaker 2: political position is. And so I wanted to be more 125 00:08:28,530 --> 00:08:33,329 Speaker 2: true to the Christian faith and not just use it 126 00:08:34,030 --> 00:08:36,850 Speaker 2: as a means towards some other ethical or political end. 127 00:08:36,910 --> 00:08:38,890 Speaker 2: I wanted to really be just true to the faith itself. 128 00:08:39,970 --> 00:08:45,510 Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate that so much. So as the book opens, 129 00:08:46,030 --> 00:08:51,940 Speaker 1: you quote a musician, Nick Cave, who says we should 130 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 1: take our spiritual intuitions seriously. I wonder if you could 131 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: say more about what that means and what that would 132 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,260 Speaker 1: look like for us to actually do. 133 00:09:04,190 --> 00:09:08,229 Speaker 2: I think almost all people, I haven't been able to 134 00:09:08,270 --> 00:09:11,250 Speaker 2: talk to all people, so I don't know. But I 135 00:09:11,290 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: would say I think most people have a capacity and 136 00:09:18,020 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: an experience of intuiting the other world, the invisible world, 137 00:09:23,580 --> 00:09:27,290 Speaker 2: the unseen realm, the heavenly realm. But we have been 138 00:09:27,570 --> 00:09:31,510 Speaker 2: so conditioned over the last four centuries or so, since 139 00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:37,309 Speaker 2: the Enlightenment, that these sorts of things are invalid. They're 140 00:09:37,330 --> 00:09:42,900 Speaker 2: either meaningless. merely a motive, or maybe they are just 141 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: some leftover evolutionary vestige that serves no real purpose, like 142 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: some sort of an appendix or something like that. And 143 00:09:50,230 --> 00:09:54,709 Speaker 2: so we are conditioned to either be embarrassed about it 144 00:09:54,850 --> 00:09:58,770 Speaker 2: or suppress it or dismiss it. And so then I 145 00:09:58,790 --> 00:10:02,860 Speaker 2: draw upon this quote from Nick Cave, who says, if we, well, 146 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,180 Speaker 2: you remember what page that is? I'd just like to 147 00:10:05,260 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: read it. 148 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,500 Speaker 1: I was right up front, if I remember right. I 149 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,770 Speaker 1: thought it was almost like the first page or the first, 150 00:10:10,590 --> 00:10:11,950 Speaker 1: maybe the prelude, actually. 151 00:10:12,590 --> 00:10:12,970 Speaker 2: Yeah. 152 00:10:13,150 --> 00:10:14,650 Speaker 1: Right on page one of the prelude. 153 00:10:15,770 --> 00:10:16,270 Speaker 2: There we go. 154 00:10:16,290 --> 00:10:16,829 Speaker 3: Yeah. 155 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,460 Speaker 2: Is it page one? 156 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:24,660 Speaker 1: Well, I'm looking at the Prelude Passive Unseen Existences. I 157 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:25,820 Speaker 1: can read it. I've got it here. 158 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you read it then. Oh, no, I found it. 159 00:10:29,210 --> 00:10:29,530 Speaker 4: Here it is. 160 00:10:30,030 --> 00:10:33,810 Speaker 2: We must take our subtle, because they are subtle, spiritual 161 00:10:33,950 --> 00:10:38,809 Speaker 2: intuitions seriously and view them as the quintessence that underlies 162 00:10:38,870 --> 00:10:42,370 Speaker 2: the ordinary world. The rejection of the sacred is the 163 00:10:42,470 --> 00:10:47,370 Speaker 2: fundamental reason for our existential discontent. I just thought that 164 00:10:47,390 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: was a very insightful and succinct way of stating it. 165 00:10:51,740 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: And yeah, we do have an existential spiritual discontent. And 166 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: part of it is because we have been conditioned to 167 00:11:00,020 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: not take seriously our own spiritual intuition. And I want 168 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:05,580 Speaker 2: to reclaim that as well. 169 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,330 Speaker 1: I love that. I, you know, I sort of grew 170 00:11:08,450 --> 00:11:13,030 Speaker 1: up in a very think about, think about things mode. 171 00:11:13,070 --> 00:11:17,470 Speaker 1: And then I joined churches that liked thinking about things. And, 172 00:11:18,059 --> 00:11:21,220 Speaker 1: I wasn't a part of churches that might have tuned 173 00:11:21,340 --> 00:11:25,770 Speaker 1: into deeper impulses, inclinations, you know, intuitions. 174 00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:26,310 Speaker 2: Yeah. 175 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:28,969 Speaker 1: But the longer I go, the more I realize, you know, 176 00:11:29,650 --> 00:11:30,890 Speaker 1: wisdom is rooted there. 177 00:11:30,910 --> 00:11:36,970 Speaker 4: You know, I think a lot of my experience has 178 00:11:37,010 --> 00:11:41,340 Speaker 4: been if you meet someone and they trust you and 179 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,599 Speaker 4: they don't think you're trying to sell them something or 180 00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 4: manipulate them in any way. 181 00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:48,489 Speaker 2: And if you ask them, have you ever had what 182 00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 2: you might describe as a spiritual experience? Again, if they 183 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:55,820 Speaker 2: trust you and don't think you're trying to use them. 184 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: Most people actually will have something to tell and are 185 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,150 Speaker 2: willing to talk about it. Because it is a fundamental 186 00:12:05,429 --> 00:12:08,449 Speaker 2: aspect of what it means to be human. But it 187 00:12:08,550 --> 00:12:11,770 Speaker 2: is something that in modernity, as I've already said, we've 188 00:12:11,809 --> 00:12:17,619 Speaker 2: been conditioned to. But that's when Blaise Pascal, one of 189 00:12:17,660 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 2: the earlier voices in the Enlightenment, adds this sort of, well, 190 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: he's saying, don't forget this. The heart has its reason, 191 00:12:29,460 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: of which reason knows nothing. And so you can't dismiss 192 00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:36,860 Speaker 2: Blaise Pascal as just some sort of person that was 193 00:12:36,940 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 2: opposed to rational thought. I mean, he was one of 194 00:12:39,980 --> 00:12:43,550 Speaker 2: the great mathematicians of history. But he says, okay, with 195 00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:47,390 Speaker 2: all of our empiricism, with all of our studying the 196 00:12:47,510 --> 00:12:53,090 Speaker 2: world around us through empirical methods, never forget that the 197 00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:56,510 Speaker 2: heart has its reasons of which reason knows enough. And 198 00:12:56,570 --> 00:12:59,010 Speaker 2: that's an important reminder. 199 00:12:59,670 --> 00:13:03,460 Speaker 1: After the break, I'll continue my conversation with Brian Zond. 200 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: It really is. And so... Earlier, you mentioned your sort 201 00:13:12,030 --> 00:13:15,420 Speaker 1: of extended title, The Paths of, or Paths To, I 202 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,980 Speaker 1: forget which. But that idea of pilgrimage, that's where you 203 00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:23,620 Speaker 1: just mentioned that. I know pilgrimage has been a practice 204 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: that's been of great meaning to you for some time. 205 00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: And I love the image of pilgrimage as a way 206 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: of thinking of this life of faith as a journey, 207 00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: a path, a way, not just a collection of ideas 208 00:13:36,250 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: I agree with. And you say more about how this 209 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,020 Speaker 1: image of pilgrimage, especially the pilgrimage toward union with God, 210 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,650 Speaker 1: could shape and reshape our sense of discipleship and formation. 211 00:13:49,170 --> 00:13:51,809 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first of all, that's pretty clear in Scripture 212 00:13:52,030 --> 00:13:57,170 Speaker 2: that this is a recurrent metaphor, you know, from Genesis 213 00:13:57,210 --> 00:14:03,610 Speaker 2: all the way through, that this world is penultimate. There 214 00:14:03,690 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: is a world to come. There is a connection between 215 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: the two. 216 00:14:08,420 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 4: There is. 217 00:14:09,390 --> 00:14:17,209 Speaker 2: There is some continuity, but here we have no enduring city, 218 00:14:17,230 --> 00:14:20,030 Speaker 2: the writer of Hebrews says. And then we have all 219 00:14:20,070 --> 00:14:24,630 Speaker 2: those passages in Hebrews about the patriarchs as pilgrims and 220 00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: journeying and understanding that, Their ultimate home is that which 221 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: is unseen. Paul says, we look not at things which 222 00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: are seen but unseen, for that which is seen is temporal, 223 00:14:36,460 --> 00:14:41,250 Speaker 2: but that which is unseen is eternal. And so to 224 00:14:41,470 --> 00:14:46,290 Speaker 2: understand this life as in some ways preparatory or a 225 00:14:46,750 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: forming journey of pilgrimage, that's something that scripture seems to 226 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: be very comfortable with. And you already alluded to it, 227 00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:58,610 Speaker 2: that it's something that became important in my life, my 228 00:14:58,670 --> 00:15:02,130 Speaker 2: wife's life. It was 10 years ago right now. We 229 00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: were in our final week of our first walking the 230 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: 500 miles from Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, France, the Santiago de Campos de 231 00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:13,820 Speaker 2: la Spain on the Camino de Santiago. We were in 232 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,420 Speaker 2: our final week of that for the first time 10 233 00:15:16,420 --> 00:15:18,780 Speaker 2: years ago. So that's even more on my mind right 234 00:15:18,830 --> 00:15:23,380 Speaker 2: now as I, think about that anniversary. But that experience, 235 00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:27,290 Speaker 2: you know, I know we throw around the phrase, this 236 00:15:27,370 --> 00:15:32,010 Speaker 2: changed my life, maybe too freely. But on this occasion, 237 00:15:32,030 --> 00:15:36,010 Speaker 2: when I'm talking about this, I am not using hyperbole. 238 00:15:36,070 --> 00:15:39,820 Speaker 2: I'm just describing what happened. It really did change our life. 239 00:15:40,660 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: That things became simple and we understood what a metaphor 240 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:53,730 Speaker 2: for life it is. and that we have this great goal, 241 00:15:54,670 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: this place that we are moving toward. And I don't know, 242 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,500 Speaker 2: it did so many different things. I'm not doing a 243 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,940 Speaker 2: good job communicating this, this actual pilgrimage, but then it 244 00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:10,550 Speaker 2: really did help me to understand life as a pilgrim journey. 245 00:16:11,550 --> 00:16:14,330 Speaker 2: The first chapter opens with this sentence, we're all born 246 00:16:14,390 --> 00:16:17,910 Speaker 2: a long way from home, which of course is... An 247 00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: unusual sentence. You think of home as where you come from. 248 00:16:22,060 --> 00:16:25,580 Speaker 2: But there is a sense in which our true home 249 00:16:25,620 --> 00:16:28,140 Speaker 2: is a place we've not yet been, but a place 250 00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:32,980 Speaker 2: we need to go. And so thus the pilgrim journey 251 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 2: awaits us. And so I think that's a very helpful 252 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: way of thinking about our life, the life of faith, especially. 253 00:16:41,540 --> 00:16:47,620 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the sense of a process, a companion. 254 00:16:48,910 --> 00:16:52,610 Speaker 1: a way that's heading somewhere purposeful and good. I love 255 00:16:52,650 --> 00:16:56,630 Speaker 1: your image of home is a place we have not 256 00:16:56,750 --> 00:17:00,050 Speaker 1: perhaps been yet is a beautiful one. 257 00:17:00,460 --> 00:17:03,780 Speaker 2: And I think people can sense that. There is this 258 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: sense of, I mean, yes, yes, we have our hometown 259 00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: or the home we grew up in. But at a 260 00:17:09,740 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: deeper level, it's I'm still looking for something. I'm still 261 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,790 Speaker 2: yearning for something I haven't quite yet found, haven't quite 262 00:17:17,830 --> 00:17:19,909 Speaker 2: arrived at yet. I believe it's there. 263 00:17:21,150 --> 00:17:25,390 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. So as I was thinking about this idea, 264 00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:29,530 Speaker 1: your book title, Unseen Existences, I was thinking about, you know, 265 00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:32,409 Speaker 1: a movement of spiritual formation that's been around a while. 266 00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:35,470 Speaker 1: There's some beautiful things that have arisen. It's been a 267 00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:39,129 Speaker 1: movement I've benefited a great deal from. There can be 268 00:17:39,170 --> 00:17:43,350 Speaker 1: a way sometimes, though, that personal spiritual formation can become 269 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:49,540 Speaker 1: very focused on me and my improvement, my practices. How 270 00:17:50,260 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: might this image of unseen existences or pilgrimage help enrich 271 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,140 Speaker 1: or focus my sense of being on a formational journey? 272 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the things you touched on there, 273 00:18:03,859 --> 00:18:06,939 Speaker 2: that one of the, you know, first of all, An 274 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 2: emphasis on spiritual formation, sign me up for it. I 275 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: think we need that. But maybe one of the things 276 00:18:14,060 --> 00:18:18,369 Speaker 2: that needs to be tweaked is an over-individualistic approach to it. 277 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 278 00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: That this is something I do as a lone individual. 279 00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:29,250 Speaker 2: And though we are pilgrims and we are individuals, we 280 00:18:29,330 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: journey together. And You know, we'll be tied the lone pilgrim. 281 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 2: We need one another. This is something that we need 282 00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: to do in some form of community. Again, I can 283 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,100 Speaker 2: just draw upon my experience walking the Camino de Santiago now, 284 00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 2: actually four times. And people will ask me, well, can 285 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: I go and walk it alone? I said, you will 286 00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 2: not walk it alone. That won't happen. I mean, you 287 00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:59,460 Speaker 2: could get on the plane by yourself and start wherever 288 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: you start. But on day one, you're going to meet 289 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,139 Speaker 2: other pilgrims. And that's going to be one of the 290 00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:10,699 Speaker 2: most lasting effects of a pilgrim journey like that is 291 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 2: the people you meet. And you will find that you 292 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 2: need them and that you're going to have to depend 293 00:19:17,420 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 2: upon them. There's a saying on the Camino de Santiago, 294 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,979 Speaker 2: the Camino will provide. And it means, you know, don't worry. 295 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,109 Speaker 2: What you need will be there. Well, it's almost always 296 00:19:29,150 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 2: there via the other pilgrim. I mean, I don't tell 297 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: this in the book. Maybe I do. I think I 298 00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:37,139 Speaker 2: do refer to it in the book now that I 299 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,890 Speaker 2: think of it. We were leaving some particular town very 300 00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:45,969 Speaker 2: early in the morning. It was still dark. And we 301 00:19:46,030 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 2: had stayed not right on the way, the path, the Camino. 302 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 2: And so I was trying to find it because I 303 00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:54,820 Speaker 2: couldn't remember quite where it was. And I was doing 304 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: what I know you should not do. I'm walking in 305 00:19:56,980 --> 00:20:00,530 Speaker 2: the dark, looking at my phone. I know, I know, 306 00:20:00,650 --> 00:20:03,710 Speaker 2: I know people, you shouldn't do this. And I stepped 307 00:20:03,730 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 2: in this pothole, twisted my ankle, Oh, no. And I said, oh, man. 308 00:20:09,550 --> 00:20:12,409 Speaker 2: I mean, it hurt. And I went flying to the ground. 309 00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:16,510 Speaker 2: And there was a man right beside me from New 310 00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:18,770 Speaker 2: Zealand who I had not met. I didn't know him yet. 311 00:20:20,330 --> 00:20:24,060 Speaker 2: And within five minutes, he had an ankle brace out 312 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: of his pack. Who just walks with an ankle brace? 313 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,740 Speaker 2: You know, just in case. But he was just in case. 314 00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:36,300 Speaker 2: And I was the case. Oh, my goodness. And so 315 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,820 Speaker 2: we do depend upon one another. And we do need 316 00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:43,669 Speaker 2: one another. And somebody in New Zealand is going to 317 00:20:43,690 --> 00:20:49,130 Speaker 2: be carrying an ankle brace that some– bonehead from Missouri 318 00:20:49,170 --> 00:20:51,230 Speaker 2: that steps in a pothole in dark while looking at 319 00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:53,950 Speaker 2: his phone is going to need. And so you can 320 00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:57,149 Speaker 2: extrapolate that however you want at a more spiritual level. 321 00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:59,780 Speaker 2: But yeah, we do need one another, and we're not 322 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,580 Speaker 2: called to walk this entirely alone. 323 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 1: Absolutely. I would love if you'd take a minute and 324 00:21:05,780 --> 00:21:10,980 Speaker 1: just think or share, reflect on other ways in which 325 00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: your experience of pilgrimage has changed your visions. of living 326 00:21:17,619 --> 00:21:20,910 Speaker 1: a life of faith in Jesus in this last 10 327 00:21:20,910 --> 00:21:21,470 Speaker 1: or so years? 328 00:21:23,030 --> 00:21:23,270 Speaker 3: Yeah. 329 00:21:23,369 --> 00:21:27,609 Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't, I have an answer and I have, 330 00:21:27,710 --> 00:21:29,310 Speaker 2: I have several, I could give the safe answer. I'm 331 00:21:29,330 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 2: going to give the unsafe answer that I think people 332 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: might disagree with or they'll find problematic. And I say, okay, 333 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 2: I understand that there can be something problematic, but I'd 334 00:21:41,220 --> 00:21:44,710 Speaker 2: still want to say it. So every time that, Perry, 335 00:21:44,730 --> 00:21:47,550 Speaker 2: that's my wife, and I have walked the Camino de Santiago. 336 00:21:47,570 --> 00:21:49,190 Speaker 2: We've always done it in the fall. That's a good 337 00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:51,770 Speaker 2: season for us, and it's good weather and all of 338 00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:56,930 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. Well, in Spain, as here, fall 339 00:21:57,150 --> 00:22:00,369 Speaker 2: can be election season. And so here I am as 340 00:22:00,410 --> 00:22:05,750 Speaker 2: a pilgrim, and I'm passing through this village and that town, 341 00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:08,950 Speaker 2: and I see all of the election billboards and posters. 342 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: I don't get very worked up. Because I don't even 343 00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 2: know these people. I don't know this candidate from that candidate. Now, 344 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:25,420 Speaker 2: do I care? Look, I care for the common good, 345 00:22:25,460 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: the common welfare. And I want to be at any 346 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,100 Speaker 2: given moment in my immediate moment in proximity, I want 347 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,250 Speaker 2: to be kind and just and loving and helping however 348 00:22:39,670 --> 00:22:41,670 Speaker 2: I can. And so I do care for the well-being, 349 00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:50,490 Speaker 2: but I am not overly passionate that this must happen 350 00:22:50,530 --> 00:22:54,290 Speaker 2: when I'm walking through some other, because there is a, 351 00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:59,530 Speaker 2: I'm a pilgrim. I am passing through. I'm not fully invested. 352 00:23:00,010 --> 00:23:03,310 Speaker 2: And there is a sense in which, again, if you 353 00:23:03,330 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 2: find this problematic, one of my defenses will be, this 354 00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 2: is how the early church really did view themselves. And 355 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,620 Speaker 2: what they were most concerned about was, well, how can 356 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,290 Speaker 2: I bring justice to right here around me in this 357 00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:21,109 Speaker 2: immediate proximity and moment, but not how can I change 358 00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:27,430 Speaker 2: the world through the political process. And so a pilgrim's 359 00:23:27,850 --> 00:23:32,930 Speaker 2: attitude toward this life may bring a kind of saving, 360 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,020 Speaker 2: holy ambivalence. Again, I understand how that can be critiqued. 361 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:40,660 Speaker 2: So try to give me the benefit of the doubt, 362 00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:43,420 Speaker 2: engage with me in good faith, that there is a 363 00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: sense in which Here we have no enduring city or polis. 364 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,940 Speaker 2: This is Hebrews 13, I think it's verse, I don't know, six, eight, 365 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 2: something like that. Here we have no lasting or enduring polis, 366 00:24:01,170 --> 00:24:04,030 Speaker 2: but we are looking for the one that is to come. 367 00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:06,869 Speaker 2: And so I think that gives us a kind of 368 00:24:07,869 --> 00:24:14,330 Speaker 2: saving grace perspective that we don't have to be entirely responsible. 369 00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:16,990 Speaker 2: For changing the world. In fact, I wish we would 370 00:24:17,010 --> 00:24:21,719 Speaker 2: maybe modify our aspirations a little bit. It's not our 371 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,820 Speaker 2: task to change the world. It's simply our task to 372 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 2: be that part of the world already transformed by Christ 373 00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:31,370 Speaker 2: and then press on in the pilgrim journey. And then 374 00:24:31,550 --> 00:24:33,990 Speaker 2: at any given moment, when someone needs an ankle brace, 375 00:24:34,010 --> 00:24:35,530 Speaker 2: give them one or whatever, that sort of. 376 00:24:36,930 --> 00:24:40,190 Speaker 1: Well, it makes me think, I think I remember Dallas 377 00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:44,030 Speaker 1: Willard once saying, you know, Only God can love the 378 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:48,450 Speaker 1: whole world. You could love your neighbor. And it sounds 379 00:24:48,580 --> 00:24:51,700 Speaker 1: from your description of some of these pilgrimage experiences that 380 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: your neighbor, the one walking with you or the one nearby, 381 00:24:56,020 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: those were the significant connections. 382 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,340 Speaker 2: Well, and you can flip that around because what it 383 00:25:01,460 --> 00:25:03,900 Speaker 2: is easy to do is say, I love the whole world. 384 00:25:04,460 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 2: It's my neighbors I can't stand. Well, you know, loving 385 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,270 Speaker 2: the whole world is abstract and basically for us meaningless. 386 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,500 Speaker 2: What we need to do is love our neighbor, you know, 387 00:25:16,060 --> 00:25:17,830 Speaker 2: the person right there in front of us. 388 00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:24,010 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, yeah, I remember growing up, there was 389 00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:26,390 Speaker 1: a line that some people would talk about being so 390 00:25:26,450 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: heavenly minded, you know, you're, you're no earthly good. There's 391 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: one of those sort of lines, but there's a heavenly 392 00:25:32,940 --> 00:25:38,580 Speaker 1: mindedness that you're recommending. That might make us much more 393 00:25:38,859 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: earthly good. 394 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't, I remember that quote. I get 395 00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:48,169 Speaker 2: all of that. And maybe in certain ecclesial settings that 396 00:25:48,210 --> 00:25:51,090 Speaker 2: are super duper spiritual, there might be some truth. I 397 00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:54,070 Speaker 2: get that. But for the most part, that is not 398 00:25:54,130 --> 00:25:57,429 Speaker 2: our problem. We are not so heavenly minded. We're no 399 00:25:57,490 --> 00:26:00,350 Speaker 2: earthly good. We're so earthly minded that we've lost sight 400 00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:04,909 Speaker 2: of anything else. And so, you know, I mean, I'm 401 00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:08,010 Speaker 2: just quoting the Apostle Paul or paraphrasing him when he says, 402 00:26:08,450 --> 00:26:12,609 Speaker 2: set your mind on things above, not on things on earth. 403 00:26:13,390 --> 00:26:16,180 Speaker 2: And you say, well, does that make us irresponsible? No, 404 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,460 Speaker 2: it doesn't. Jesus teaches us to pray, thy kingdom come, 405 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 406 00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 2: And so we have to have some sort of heavenly 407 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:32,139 Speaker 2: concept of where things are right, things are healed. things 408 00:26:32,260 --> 00:26:35,899 Speaker 2: are restored, and then we pray and try to live 409 00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 2: toward that, knowing that it won't be perfected in this 410 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,330 Speaker 2: age and in this pilgrim journey, but still that becomes 411 00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:46,030 Speaker 2: the standard. But if you have no concept of the 412 00:26:46,090 --> 00:26:50,090 Speaker 2: heavens and a time and place where things are healed 413 00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:54,510 Speaker 2: and right, then how are you going to move towards 414 00:26:54,830 --> 00:26:57,250 Speaker 2: on earth as it is in heaven? Absolutely. 415 00:26:57,270 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: Absolutely. It's a perfectly good question. 416 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,869 Speaker 2: Yeah, that prayer presumes that we have some kind of faith, 417 00:27:05,010 --> 00:27:09,090 Speaker 2: spiritual awareness of a heavenly realm where things are right. 418 00:27:10,270 --> 00:27:10,410 Speaker 3: Yeah. 419 00:27:10,430 --> 00:27:11,970 Speaker 2: Things are just. Things are healed. 420 00:27:12,030 --> 00:27:12,290 Speaker 3: Yes. 421 00:27:13,910 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: Well, so as I'm thinking, many of our listeners carry 422 00:27:19,940 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: a certain amount of leadership responsibility. Some pastors, some in 423 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:29,459 Speaker 1: business contexts. Your statement, which I think is an essential one, 424 00:27:29,580 --> 00:27:33,980 Speaker 1: is that our ultimate calling is union with God. That 425 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: might not be on the top of the list for 426 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,530 Speaker 1: every person listening. And yet, I think your invitation to 427 00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:45,530 Speaker 1: make that a central pursuit in the midst of all 428 00:27:45,570 --> 00:27:48,690 Speaker 1: that we do and all that we are seeking to 429 00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:51,970 Speaker 1: be faithful for is a beautiful one. Can you say more? 430 00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:53,270 Speaker 2: I can say more. 431 00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:55,230 Speaker 3: Good. Yeah. 432 00:27:56,020 --> 00:28:01,889 Speaker 2: So our true telos is to, as it says in 433 00:28:01,890 --> 00:28:06,730 Speaker 2: 2 Peter, participate in the divine nature. This actually takes 434 00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:10,090 Speaker 2: us all the way back to the very beginning, to 435 00:28:10,109 --> 00:28:13,330 Speaker 2: like in the beginning, Genesis 1 in the beginning, where 436 00:28:13,369 --> 00:28:18,650 Speaker 2: you have the Christian interpretation would be the Godhead. Let 437 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,580 Speaker 2: us make humankind in our image according to our likeness. 438 00:28:23,330 --> 00:28:25,510 Speaker 2: So right there, from the very beginning, we get the 439 00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:31,619 Speaker 2: tell-all that human beings would participate in the likeness of God, 440 00:28:31,650 --> 00:28:36,260 Speaker 2: in the nature of God, to become like God. Now, 441 00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: here's where it gets tricky. Then you have the serpent 442 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: come in and tempt Adam and Eve to become like God. 443 00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:47,660 Speaker 2: And we've thought, well, being like God, that must be 444 00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:51,260 Speaker 2: the temptation. No, that's the tell-all. That's the original design 445 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,660 Speaker 2: from God. That's the good end of this whole thing. 446 00:28:55,300 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: The insidious aspect of the serpent's temptation was the attempt 447 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 2: to be like God apart from God. 448 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:04,380 Speaker 3: Oh, boy. 449 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,500 Speaker 2: Through knowledge alone. See, the tree of the knowledge of 450 00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:13,510 Speaker 2: good and evil, it wasn't bad. It was just we 451 00:29:13,550 --> 00:29:15,090 Speaker 2: weren't ready for it yet. 452 00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:16,270 Speaker 3: Okay. 453 00:29:17,140 --> 00:29:20,300 Speaker 2: We were still in a state of spiritual moral infancy 454 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,060 Speaker 2: and needed to grow, and then eventually we could partake. 455 00:29:24,540 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: But the serpent said, no, no, no, there's no growth. 456 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,950 Speaker 2: You're ready. You don't have to learn and grow and develop. 457 00:29:31,690 --> 00:29:34,370 Speaker 2: You don't have to have a spiritual formation. Just grasp 458 00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:37,310 Speaker 2: that fruit of the tree of knowledge, and you can 459 00:29:37,350 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: become like the gods. Today, we would say it's the 460 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: attempt to become like God through technology alone. And so 461 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 2: we become like God through union with God, through participation 462 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,990 Speaker 2: in the divine nature, not through denying the existence of God, 463 00:29:58,030 --> 00:30:01,900 Speaker 2: whether we do it completely or philosophically or just functionally, 464 00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:06,220 Speaker 2: that we try to become God-like just through our knowledge 465 00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:09,620 Speaker 2: and our technology and our power and our politics. That's 466 00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:15,490 Speaker 2: the insidious aspect of the serpent's temptation. So our true 467 00:30:15,530 --> 00:30:20,610 Speaker 2: telos is to become like Jesus. When we look at Jesus, 468 00:30:21,890 --> 00:30:25,620 Speaker 2: we see two things simultaneously that are just so beautiful. 469 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,690 Speaker 2: First of all, we see what God is like. You know, 470 00:30:30,810 --> 00:30:36,050 Speaker 2: at the end of his poetic prologue, John says, and 471 00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:38,770 Speaker 2: this is John 1.1, in the beginning was the Word. 472 00:30:39,410 --> 00:30:42,050 Speaker 2: Verse 14, the Word becomes flesh. And at the end 473 00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:45,180 Speaker 2: of that, verse 18, no one has ever seen God. 474 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,100 Speaker 2: The only begotten Son who is near the Father's heart, 475 00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:50,060 Speaker 2: He has made Him known. Well, we could say, what 476 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,260 Speaker 2: do you mean no one's ever seen God? And you 477 00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: could have all the examples out of the Old Testament 478 00:30:54,420 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: of people encountering God. Well, I think John would say, look, 479 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: I know the Bible. But what I'm saying is, no 480 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:05,260 Speaker 2: matter what dreams, visions, revelations, epiphanies, theophany, people have had 481 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 2: in times past, in comparison to the revelation of God 482 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,070 Speaker 2: in Christ, no one's ever seen that. So to see 483 00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:16,630 Speaker 2: Jesus is to have the full revelation of what God 484 00:31:16,690 --> 00:31:19,330 Speaker 2: is like, but it doesn't end there. It's also the 485 00:31:19,410 --> 00:31:24,710 Speaker 2: full revelation of what human beings are to become. I mean, 486 00:31:24,750 --> 00:31:27,230 Speaker 2: I think people know this, right? Christians know this. We 487 00:31:27,370 --> 00:31:34,850 Speaker 2: are to become God. like jesus so so genesis the 488 00:31:34,890 --> 00:31:39,660 Speaker 2: genesis tell us let us create humankind in our image 489 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: the corner our likeness is not abandoned because of the 490 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,510 Speaker 2: fall the transgression it's it's set back on track by 491 00:31:47,550 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: the new adam or the last adam who is Adam, 492 00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: who is Christ, and that's restored. But that's all part 493 00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:57,740 Speaker 2: of the pilgrimage journey. You know, we can talk about 494 00:31:57,790 --> 00:32:01,190 Speaker 2: our conversion experience. I mean, many can anyway, and say 495 00:32:01,210 --> 00:32:03,770 Speaker 2: it was at this moment, this place, I asked Jesus 496 00:32:03,810 --> 00:32:04,290 Speaker 2: into my heart. 497 00:32:04,430 --> 00:32:04,670 Speaker 3: Amen. 498 00:32:04,690 --> 00:32:05,250 Speaker 2: I'm all for it. 499 00:32:05,390 --> 00:32:05,650 Speaker 1: Great. 500 00:32:06,410 --> 00:32:10,150 Speaker 2: But that's just the beginning. I mean, well, I'll go 501 00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:15,550 Speaker 2: back to my pilgrim metaphor. You know, we began in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, France, 502 00:32:15,610 --> 00:32:18,550 Speaker 2: in the Pyrenees. And I still remember walking out of 503 00:32:18,570 --> 00:32:23,740 Speaker 2: that pilgrim office. where we'd got our pompastone. I remember 504 00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:30,290 Speaker 2: our first step onto the Camino. It's memorable. It's important. 505 00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:33,970 Speaker 2: We could never have reached Santiago without that first step. 506 00:32:34,010 --> 00:32:36,130 Speaker 2: But on the other hand, the first step is only 507 00:32:36,170 --> 00:32:39,010 Speaker 2: the first step. That's all it is. And we have 508 00:32:39,050 --> 00:32:44,660 Speaker 2: to be careful not to turn conversion into the completion 509 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 2: of the entire journey. What we might call our conversion 510 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,630 Speaker 2: experience or getting saved or whatever all that is, that's great. 511 00:32:54,330 --> 00:32:57,610 Speaker 2: And if you have that kind of story, testimony, hold 512 00:32:57,710 --> 00:33:04,650 Speaker 2: on to it, but don't over-realize it. Just understand that 513 00:33:04,730 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: it was the first step. So that's why it's memorable, 514 00:33:07,780 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 2: but now take the second and the third, and it's 515 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,940 Speaker 2: about a million steps across the Camino. So this is 516 00:33:15,980 --> 00:33:20,190 Speaker 2: the Apostle Paul telling us, I press on. I'm not 517 00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:24,130 Speaker 2: there yet, but I'm still walking. I'm still pressing on. 518 00:33:25,650 --> 00:33:29,710 Speaker 1: I love that. I'm thinking, you know, Paul's language in 519 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,860 Speaker 1: his Colossian letter, set your hearts on things above, set 520 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,340 Speaker 1: your minds on things above. You know, you've shared how 521 00:33:37,380 --> 00:33:40,460 Speaker 1: the practice or the experience of pilgrimage has been an 522 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,860 Speaker 1: important element of that for you. Just in your day-to-day, week-to-week, 523 00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: are there other ways that help you stay awake to 524 00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,300 Speaker 1: the reality of heaven in the midst of kind of 525 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: what fills your life and your days. 526 00:33:54,830 --> 00:33:59,650 Speaker 2: There are moments when I think we catch glimmers of 527 00:33:59,670 --> 00:34:02,850 Speaker 2: the heavens, of the other world, of the eternal world. 528 00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:06,590 Speaker 2: This world, we think of this world as, you know, 529 00:34:07,370 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 2: so substantial, so enduring. You know, I mean, we stand 530 00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:16,670 Speaker 2: upon solid ground, except we don't. The tectonic plates are moving. 531 00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 2: Everything's in change. You never cross the same river twice. 532 00:34:20,060 --> 00:34:24,180 Speaker 2: Everything's in flux. But there is a world that is 533 00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: enduring and eternal and lasting and perfect. And I think 534 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,009 Speaker 2: the moments of beauty that we behold remind us of 535 00:34:35,050 --> 00:34:38,470 Speaker 2: that and give us a glimpse. And so I've really 536 00:34:38,610 --> 00:34:41,989 Speaker 2: over the last, I don't know, 15 years, maybe a 537 00:34:41,989 --> 00:34:48,169 Speaker 2: little longer, I've I have tried to exercise a practice 538 00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 2: of being intentional of recognizing the beauty that's around me. 539 00:34:53,290 --> 00:34:56,859 Speaker 2: In the book I talk about, I just started this 540 00:34:56,890 --> 00:35:00,180 Speaker 2: practice a few years ago where most nights I'll just 541 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: walk into my backyard and just pay attention to the sounds. 542 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,970 Speaker 2: Maybe I see the stars, you know, depending on what 543 00:35:07,989 --> 00:35:11,750 Speaker 2: the weather and all that is. Look for the constellations 544 00:35:11,790 --> 00:35:14,190 Speaker 2: at their different places, you know, throughout the year. 545 00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:15,469 Speaker 4: And I. 546 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:23,620 Speaker 2: Regularly am just, my heart is smitten with the beauty 547 00:35:23,660 --> 00:35:28,700 Speaker 2: that I behold. And there's far more beauty all around us, 548 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,240 Speaker 2: but we become so, what is this? The unhurried podcast? 549 00:35:33,260 --> 00:35:34,910 Speaker 2: Is this what this is? The unhurried, what is it? 550 00:35:34,910 --> 00:35:35,790 Speaker 2: Unhurried living? 551 00:35:35,930 --> 00:35:36,729 Speaker 1: Unhurried living. 552 00:35:37,310 --> 00:35:43,740 Speaker 2: This is what I'm talking about. If we are dashing, 553 00:35:43,969 --> 00:35:47,450 Speaker 2: if we're harried and hurried, if we're rushing all the time, 554 00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:49,670 Speaker 2: I know there's moments when that'll be our experience, but 555 00:35:49,710 --> 00:35:54,870 Speaker 2: if that becomes our lifestyle, we're missing so much beauty 556 00:35:56,010 --> 00:35:59,270 Speaker 2: that is, I think, essential for the well-being of our soul. 557 00:36:00,190 --> 00:36:05,110 Speaker 2: I did a practice a few years ago where if 558 00:36:05,350 --> 00:36:09,270 Speaker 2: I drive, I'm here in my house, the church that 559 00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:13,370 Speaker 2: I pastor, Word of Life Church is 12 miles away 560 00:36:13,610 --> 00:36:15,969 Speaker 2: or 12 minutes away. It's just a 12 minute drive. 561 00:36:17,180 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 2: And I live kind of right on the edge of 562 00:36:19,060 --> 00:36:21,540 Speaker 2: town and then driving towards town. It's just, you know, 563 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 2: it's American Midwest suburbia. 564 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 4: All right. 565 00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:26,300 Speaker 2: So it's the Walmart. It's, you know, it's those things. 566 00:36:26,940 --> 00:36:29,940 Speaker 2: So I don't, I'm not living in a place where 567 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 2: my drive, you know, has a scenic drive sign. 568 00:36:34,010 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 569 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,430 Speaker 2: And yet, and yet I said, no, I know there's 570 00:36:37,489 --> 00:36:41,529 Speaker 2: beauty all around me. And so every time, I did 571 00:36:41,570 --> 00:36:44,270 Speaker 2: this for months. I'm going to keep my eye out 572 00:36:44,310 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 2: for at least one signal of beauty. And you know what? 573 00:36:48,940 --> 00:36:50,779 Speaker 2: I never failed to find it. It was there. Maybe 574 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,739 Speaker 2: it was the clouds. Maybe it was some geese flying over. 575 00:36:52,780 --> 00:36:55,779 Speaker 2: Who knows what it was? Maybe there was just the 576 00:36:55,860 --> 00:36:58,739 Speaker 2: simple beauty of a woman walking her dog that I 577 00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:05,060 Speaker 2: caught that moment. And so this is a practice that 578 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,240 Speaker 2: I think does slow us down and does help remind 579 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:15,020 Speaker 2: us that there is a perfect world where the true 580 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 2: and the good and the beautiful are eternal and enduring. 581 00:37:18,180 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: And in various moments, they shine through into this temporal 582 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 2: world and they become reliable guides. I tie it in 583 00:37:26,739 --> 00:37:31,299 Speaker 2: again with Camino. The Camino de Santiago is marked by 584 00:37:31,340 --> 00:37:34,430 Speaker 2: the fletches, the yellow fletches. Fletch is just, you know, 585 00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:39,489 Speaker 2: arrow in Spanish. And you're always looking for those. I mean, 586 00:37:39,530 --> 00:37:41,790 Speaker 2: you just, within the first day or two, you just 587 00:37:41,830 --> 00:37:44,670 Speaker 2: sort of learn, especially when you're passing through a city. 588 00:37:44,770 --> 00:37:48,330 Speaker 2: If you're out in the woods and it's just, you 589 00:37:48,350 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 2: know it's the Camino, it's the path, it's not quite 590 00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:53,900 Speaker 2: that necessary. But you do pass through towns and a 591 00:37:53,940 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 2: few cities along the way, and you've got to keep 592 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,420 Speaker 2: your eye out for those fletches or you'll miss the turn. 593 00:37:59,460 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 2: And then, yeah, I've got to find my way back. 594 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:06,950 Speaker 2: And where did the Camino go? I think of beauty... 595 00:38:07,260 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 2: And the things that evoke wonder and awe as these 596 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 2: reliable way markers or the fletches in the pilgrim journey 597 00:38:15,660 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 2: through life. And so I encourage everyone, and I'll just 598 00:38:20,219 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 2: keep riffing off of the title of this podcast, the 599 00:38:23,260 --> 00:38:26,580 Speaker 2: name of this podcast. It would be when you get 600 00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:30,260 Speaker 2: hurried in a city that you start missing the fletches. 601 00:38:30,420 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 2: And you know what your hurry does? It slows you down. 602 00:38:34,260 --> 00:38:35,439 Speaker 1: It surely does. 603 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: Because you've lost it. You know, this would happen a 604 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,300 Speaker 2: few times. You know, it'd be like, Harry, I haven't 605 00:38:42,340 --> 00:38:43,930 Speaker 2: seen any yellow fletches for a while. 606 00:38:43,950 --> 00:38:45,330 Speaker 1: Have you? No. 607 00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:47,450 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to have to go back and find 608 00:38:47,469 --> 00:38:49,430 Speaker 2: them because we're off the green. 609 00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:51,810 Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness. 610 00:38:52,010 --> 00:38:57,700 Speaker 2: So the things, though, that sense of wonder and that awe, 611 00:38:59,940 --> 00:39:05,460 Speaker 2: those are reliable way markers for our journey that help 612 00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 2: remind us. that we are headed for the world where 613 00:39:10,180 --> 00:39:12,380 Speaker 2: the true and the good and the beautiful are the 614 00:39:12,420 --> 00:39:14,219 Speaker 2: attributes of God existing in perfection. 615 00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:18,290 Speaker 1: Oh, that is so good. I'll share with you something. 616 00:39:18,330 --> 00:39:20,650 Speaker 1: Just the other day, I started reading John of the 617 00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:25,509 Speaker 1: Cross's Spiritual Canticle, reading some classics here and there. 618 00:39:25,530 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 3: That's a Spanish mystic right there. That's exactly right. I 619 00:39:28,580 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 3: was thinking of that. And a story is told that 620 00:39:32,460 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 3: he was speaking to a woman who was head of 621 00:39:35,020 --> 00:39:38,299 Speaker 3: one of the Carmelite communities that John, of course, was 622 00:39:38,380 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 3: connected to as well. And he asked her, what is 623 00:39:41,980 --> 00:39:44,140 Speaker 3: your way of praying? What does that look like? And 624 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:49,270 Speaker 3: her summary was, My way of praying consists in beholding 625 00:39:49,310 --> 00:39:54,620 Speaker 3: God's beauty and rejoicing that he possesses it. I thought, 626 00:39:54,820 --> 00:39:57,180 Speaker 3: oh my goodness. John was so captured by that. 627 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,379 Speaker 2: Is this Teresa of Avila that he was talking with? 628 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: No, it was just a mother of one of the 629 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 1: communities in a small little town. So it wasn't Teresa. 630 00:40:05,380 --> 00:40:06,470 Speaker 4: Yeah. 631 00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:09,129 Speaker 1: But he was just so captured by this. He couldn't 632 00:40:09,150 --> 00:40:12,370 Speaker 1: stop talking about this woman's way of praying, which was 633 00:40:12,469 --> 00:40:14,410 Speaker 1: focused on the beauty of God. 634 00:40:14,430 --> 00:40:15,250 Speaker 2: I love that. 635 00:40:15,270 --> 00:40:18,340 Speaker 1: I just thought of, So as we're coming to the 636 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,250 Speaker 1: close of our conversation, I wonder if you could just 637 00:40:21,489 --> 00:40:26,890 Speaker 1: offer a word of, oh, perhaps pastoral encouragement to our 638 00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:28,609 Speaker 1: listeners in the spirit of your book. 639 00:40:28,989 --> 00:40:33,060 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I am going to go to Teresa of Avila, 640 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 2: another Spanish mystic. And she was a friend and kind 641 00:40:37,420 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 2: of a teacher of John of the Cross. For sure. And, well, 642 00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:45,859 Speaker 2: I'll tell the story first. So the last time we 643 00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:50,580 Speaker 2: walked a Camino was 2023. So it's been a little while. 644 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:51,419 Speaker 2: You can't do it all the time. 645 00:40:52,180 --> 00:40:52,899 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 646 00:40:53,380 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 2: And Perry had brought with her, it's kind of a 647 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 2: prayer or it's a confession. It's an acknowledgement. It's known 648 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 2: as St. Teresa's bookmark. But it comes from St. Teresa 649 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:13,149 Speaker 2: of Avila, this 17th century Spanish mystic Carmelite nun. And 650 00:41:13,210 --> 00:41:17,010 Speaker 2: it goes like this. Let nothing disturb you. Let nothing 651 00:41:17,210 --> 00:41:21,989 Speaker 2: frighten you. All things are passing away. God never changes. 652 00:41:22,850 --> 00:41:29,589 Speaker 2: Patience obtains all things. Whoever has God lacks nothing. God 653 00:41:29,650 --> 00:41:32,900 Speaker 2: alone suffices. She brought that in a little card we 654 00:41:32,940 --> 00:41:35,259 Speaker 2: had with her. And I thought that was great. But 655 00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:38,180 Speaker 2: it became kind of our, I don't know, it just 656 00:41:38,420 --> 00:41:40,500 Speaker 2: stayed with us on that. Now, if you walk 500 miles, okay, 657 00:41:44,350 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 2: Things are going to go wrong. That's the nature of it. 658 00:41:49,410 --> 00:41:52,810 Speaker 2: I remember one day where it just rained all day. 659 00:41:52,870 --> 00:41:55,810 Speaker 2: Somebody asked me, well, what do you do if it 660 00:41:55,890 --> 00:41:58,149 Speaker 2: rains on the Camino? I said, you walk in the rain. 661 00:41:58,210 --> 00:42:01,390 Speaker 2: I mean, you get wet. I mean, that's what you do. 662 00:42:01,410 --> 00:42:03,609 Speaker 2: But it was one of those days where it just 663 00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:06,779 Speaker 2: rained all. It just never let up. And this was 664 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,339 Speaker 2: sort of annoying. I mean, it's romantic for the first 665 00:42:10,340 --> 00:42:12,580 Speaker 2: 30 minutes, and then after a while, it's just annoying. 666 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 2: And we were cold and it was, you know, and 667 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 2: we got to the town where we were staying. But 668 00:42:21,340 --> 00:42:23,940 Speaker 2: for the life of me, I could not find our lodging. 669 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,210 Speaker 2: I had directions, but they didn't seem to make sense. 670 00:42:29,050 --> 00:42:30,870 Speaker 2: And I was trying to find him and I was, 671 00:42:31,330 --> 00:42:33,090 Speaker 2: you know, having to talk to people in Spanish and 672 00:42:33,130 --> 00:42:38,029 Speaker 2: my Spanish is terrible. And I was getting frustrated, you know, 673 00:42:38,050 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 2: because I just wanted to get out of the rain 674 00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:42,180 Speaker 2: and I can't find where we're supposed to stay. And 675 00:42:42,219 --> 00:42:46,020 Speaker 2: Perry would just start saying, Let nothing disturb you. Let 676 00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 2: nothing frighten you. All things. And you know what, though? 677 00:42:49,540 --> 00:42:53,529 Speaker 2: That actually helped. And I like that so much that 678 00:42:53,550 --> 00:42:56,490 Speaker 2: I just kept it. I memorized it. And it's part 679 00:42:56,530 --> 00:42:59,050 Speaker 2: of what I said every day during my morning time 680 00:42:59,090 --> 00:43:05,810 Speaker 2: of prayer. And it's so counterintuitive. To the so-called wisdom 681 00:43:05,850 --> 00:43:09,830 Speaker 2: of this world. I mean, the world around us with 682 00:43:09,890 --> 00:43:13,149 Speaker 2: the internet and the news and the politics and all 683 00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 2: of it is more or less the opposite. You know, 684 00:43:15,980 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 2: let everything disturb you. Be afraid of everything. And then 685 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 2: that all things are passing away is viewed negatively. And 686 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,689 Speaker 2: we desperately try to clutch and hold on to things that, no, 687 00:43:28,969 --> 00:43:32,270 Speaker 2: let go. It's going to pass away. We have not 688 00:43:32,330 --> 00:43:34,969 Speaker 2: yet reached the eternal. So let me say it one 689 00:43:34,989 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 2: more time. This is my pastoral counsel from Teresa of Avila. 690 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 2: Let nothing disturb you. Let nothing frighten you. All things 691 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:51,660 Speaker 2: are passing away. God never changes. And listen to this. 692 00:43:51,780 --> 00:43:55,460 Speaker 2: Patience obtains all things. Patience and wisdom are so closely 693 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,940 Speaker 2: related that you can hardly tell the difference. Patience obtains 694 00:43:59,140 --> 00:44:04,089 Speaker 2: all things. Whoever has God lacks nothing. God alone. Suffice. 695 00:44:05,070 --> 00:44:06,850 Speaker 3: Amen. Amen. 696 00:44:07,630 --> 00:44:10,770 Speaker 1: I so appreciate you closing with that. Again, my guest 697 00:44:10,830 --> 00:44:14,340 Speaker 1: today has been Brian Zahn, and we've been talking about 698 00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: his book, Unseen Existences. Brian, it's been such a pleasure 699 00:44:18,020 --> 00:44:19,020 Speaker 1: to have this time together. 700 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 2: Alan, it's my pleasure. Thank you. 701 00:44:23,460 --> 00:44:26,730 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Unhurried Living podcast. To 702 00:44:26,770 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: learn more about us, visit unhurriedliving.com. In the show notes, 703 00:44:31,580 --> 00:44:36,310 Speaker 1: you'll find helpful links and information about our partner, Life Audio, 704 00:44:36,430 --> 00:44:39,230 Speaker 1: and all of their other faith-centered podcasts.