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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Hello friends, I'm Alan Faddling and you're listening to the

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Speaker 2: Unhurried Living Podcast, where we inspire you to rest deeper,

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Speaker 2: live fuller, and lead better. The fruit of a tree

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Speaker 2: is easy to see, the roots of a tree are

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Speaker 2: not as easy, and yet what is visible above ground

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Speaker 2: depends entirely on what is growing beneath the ground. And

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Speaker 2: it's really the same with leadership. Today, I'm talking with

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Speaker 2: Eric Geiger about his new book, The Rooted Leader. Together

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Speaker 2: we'll explore what it takes to cultivate deep roots while

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Speaker 2: some leaders remain steady through difficult seasons, and what we

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Speaker 2: can learn from Nehemiah about leadership that endures. After a

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Speaker 2: word from our sponsor, I'll dive into my conversation with

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Speaker 2: Eric Geiger. If you're listening to this podcast, I'd love

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Speaker 2: for you to follow or subscribe, And if you're watching

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Speaker 2: on YouTube, please consider subscribing there as well. It's free

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Speaker 2: and it helps you stay connected with us, and it

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Speaker 2: also helps more people discover the Unhurried Living Podcast. My

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Speaker 2: guest today is Eric Geiger. Eric serves as senior pastor

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Speaker 2: of Mariner's Church in Newport Beach, California. Over the years

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Speaker 2: He's become a trusted voice in conversations about discipleship, spiritual formation,

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Speaker 2: and leadership through his ministry, speaking and writing. He is

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Speaker 2: the author and co author of numerous books, including Simple Church,

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Speaker 2: Transformational Discipleship, and his newest release, The Rooted Leader. In

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Speaker 2: our conversation today, we'll explore what it takes to lead

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Speaker 2: faithfully over the long haul, why some leaders lose their

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Speaker 2: away while others endure, and what we can learn from

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Speaker 2: the life of Me and Maya about cultivating a leadership

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Speaker 2: life that remains steady through changing seasons. Now here's my

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Speaker 2: conversation with Eric Geiger. Well, Eric's such a treat to

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Speaker 2: have this conversation. Thanks for writing the book The Rooted Leader.

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Speaker 1: Alan, thanks for having me on. Man, it's really an honor.

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Speaker 2: I appreciated reading your book. And you know, right up

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Speaker 2: front you talk about the image of leaders toppling. That's

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Speaker 2: your metaphor. That's a striking word. Obviously, I wonder if

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Speaker 2: you can say more about this, this metaphor that you

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Speaker 2: begin with.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure that most listeners have experienced leaders toppling,

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Speaker 3: whether it's a marketplace leader, a friend, a ministry leader,

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Speaker 3: in a local church setting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's happened so many.

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Speaker 3: Times Alan, I'm probably sadly not surprised anymore when it happens.

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Speaker 3: There's just seems like an onslaught of stories of people

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Speaker 3: who we trusted who moral failure or some type of

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Speaker 3: significant leadership failure that just was in their character or

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Speaker 3: their integrity, that was a complete toppling, a crumbling. It's

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Speaker 3: really painful. And I never read those stories or hear

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Speaker 3: those stories and think that can't happen to me. Because

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Speaker 3: I've been friends with people who've toppled and people who

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Speaker 3: I've looked up to like heroes in the faith. That's

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Speaker 3: really painful when that happens. And then people I've sat

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Speaker 3: across tables from for meals and have thought, man, this

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Speaker 3: person loves Jesus more than I do. This person their

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Speaker 3: faith is incredible. So when I hear the stories, I'm

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Speaker 3: not writing from a sense of arrogance.

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Speaker 1: Like I got this. I don't feel at all like

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Speaker 1: I've got this.

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Speaker 3: The only way that I'm still standing right now is because,

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Speaker 3: according to the end of the short Little book, Jude,

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Speaker 3: He's the one who causes me to stand.

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Speaker 1: And so it seeing brothers and.

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Speaker 3: Sisters topple causes me to just want to throw myself

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Speaker 3: on to his grace. But the image of a tree toppling,

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Speaker 3: the reality is it's people who love trees hated because

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Speaker 3: it was you know, it's it's beautiful. Trees are beautiful,

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Speaker 3: but when it topples, it doesn't take long to clean

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Speaker 3: up the mass. A couple of chainsaws and a pickup

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Speaker 3: truck and everything's kind of hauled away within within several hours.

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Speaker 1: When a leader topples, specifically a.

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Speaker 3: Ministry leader, there is clean up for years, sometimes decades.

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Speaker 1: So much trust is lost.

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Speaker 3: People sometimes even wonder, man, how do they have a

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Speaker 3: hard time separating? Can I listen to what I heard

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Speaker 3: before from this person that really impacted me?

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Speaker 1: It's so disorienting for people.

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Speaker 3: And then obviously we know families are impacted, organizations, churches.

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Speaker 3: It's it's it's toppling is a way to describe it.

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Speaker 3: But it's much much more damage when a leader topples.

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Speaker 3: They want a tree topples.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's ri sure. We had an old growth false

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Speaker 2: pair in our front yard, multi trunk. It had been

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Speaker 2: there since we moved in. We've been in this house

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Speaker 2: for nearly thirty years and one morning after a hard windstorm,

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Speaker 2: we walked out and there it was sitting in our driveway,

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Speaker 2: and of course, you know what's going on, right, this

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Speaker 2: is a beautiful tree. And then when you looked at

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Speaker 2: the base, you could see there was some termite activity,

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Speaker 2: you know, so kind of in this. You know, when

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Speaker 2: the tree falls, obviously, the moment of the falling is

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Speaker 2: what we all notice, but what we don't notice is

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Speaker 2: what in the world led to that. And of course

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Speaker 2: your book is titled The Rooted Leader. I wonder if

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Speaker 2: you can say some about that longer journey to what

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Speaker 2: ends up looking like a moment of toppling.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you described it really well. And trees

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Speaker 3: typically topple from storms at hitting and unhealthy roots being

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Speaker 3: beneath the surface, and so you can't tell that the

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Speaker 3: roots unhealthy until the storm goes through.

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Speaker 1: And storms are going to come.

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Speaker 3: When when you're in leadership, and even when you're not leadership,

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Speaker 3: but you're living in a world that's fallen and broken,

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Speaker 3: storms are going to come, and so we can't control

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Speaker 3: the storms as leaders that there may be another There

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Speaker 3: may be another one tomorrow, you know. They it's challenging

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Speaker 3: to be a leader. Very challenging. So we must focus

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Speaker 3: on the roots. And the toppling doesn't happen because of

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Speaker 3: the storm. The toppling happens because the roots, over a

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Speaker 3: sustained period of time just have grown unhealthy. And the

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Speaker 3: same is true in the life of a leader. We

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Speaker 3: have to ensure that our roots. We can be preoccupied

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Speaker 3: with our roots being healthy, that we're connected to him Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Jesus used the illustration as well. He said, I'm the vine,

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Speaker 3: you're the branches. Just remain in me. You don't have

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Speaker 3: to bear the fruit. I'll bear the fruit through you. You

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Speaker 3: just remain in me. Remain in me. Without me, you

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Speaker 3: can do nothing. Just remain in me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well it strikes me. You know, when you look

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Speaker 2: at a tree, can see is is absolutely not the

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Speaker 2: root system. But if it's a healthy tree, there's as

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Speaker 2: much root system going on as there is, you know,

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Speaker 2: tree above ground. So I wonder if you can talk

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Speaker 2: about that hidden kind of dynamic, like the root system

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Speaker 2: of a leader in part is some of that stuff

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Speaker 2: that happens unseen. I guess positive or negative? Right?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm assuming Alan that many of your listeners

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Speaker 3: are are ministry leaders or do we have marketplace listeners

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: We've got Christians leading in a lot of context, a

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Speaker 2: lot of them in churches, a lot of them in nonprofits.

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Speaker 3: Y yeah, yeah, which I which is awesome. I think

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Speaker 3: it applies to both. But because I'm a pastor, sometimes

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Speaker 3: people can judge my leadership or the fruit of my

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Speaker 3: leadership based on a thirty five minute message. But that's

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Speaker 3: a small sliver. That's just what you're seeing on the surface.

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Speaker 3: The reality is so much of the of the hard

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Speaker 3: work of staying with him, being in the script, sure, repenting,

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Speaker 3: earning away from my sin, not trusting in my flesh,

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Speaker 3: trusting in him. That's the more important, that's the more

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Speaker 3: important work. The thirty five minutes is hopefully a fruit

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Speaker 3: and a result of walking with him and being connected

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Speaker 3: to him, But it's not the totality of who I am,

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Speaker 3: you know at all?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So along the way, I've enjoyed reading

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Speaker 2: books that took me Amaya as a model for leadership,

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Speaker 2: which is what you've done too. And I'd love to

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Speaker 2: hear some of your own experience of reflecting on his wife,

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Speaker 2: reflecting on that biblical text. How did that sort of

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Speaker 2: meet you personally? As a leader.

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Speaker 1: I have studied me Amayah.

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Speaker 3: I'm fifty years old now, so I've been in the

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Speaker 3: game a while, but I was when I first took

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Speaker 3: my first leadership role actually in college. Even then, I

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Speaker 3: remember reading Niamayah, so I feel like I've spent a

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Speaker 3: lot of time with him. With me, I feel like

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Speaker 3: I know Niamayah a bit. And if you had said, hey, man,

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Speaker 3: would you like to get breakfast with Namayah, I'd be like,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I'll call in any favor. I'll do

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Speaker 3: anything to sit down with Niamayah, just because what an

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Speaker 3: incredible leader. He was a cupbearer in Persia, so he

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Speaker 3: wasn't serving among God's people in Judea. He then goes

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Speaker 3: to Jerusalem and he's a visionary builder, but it's a

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Speaker 3: completely different context. So he was an amazing leader clearly

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Speaker 3: in Persia because he was promoted to the position of

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Speaker 3: cutbear and trusted by artist Xerxes. It was it was

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Speaker 3: like a chief of staff kind of position, so very

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Speaker 3: effective there. Then he's in a completely different context, different

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Speaker 3: languages spoken completely.

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Speaker 1: It's a turnaround situation.

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Speaker 3: Essentially, he's going to rebuild a wall and then he

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Speaker 3: becomes governor, and he convinces people to move back to

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Speaker 3: Jerusalem and so repopulates the s which there was so

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Speaker 3: much written about him rebuilding the wall, which is amazing

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Speaker 3: because no one thought it could happen and it only

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Speaker 3: took the two days. But if you just were looking

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Speaker 3: at a biographical sketch of Neemia, or if he was

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Speaker 3: doing a keynote at a seminar and someone introduced him,

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Speaker 3: I think you'd be most most impressed by man. This

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Speaker 3: guy rebuilt the city of Jerusalem. He figured out how

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Speaker 3: to get people to believe in the city once again

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Speaker 3: and move back to Jerusalem. So I've always thought it'd

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Speaker 3: be awesome to hang out with him. So if you're like,

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Speaker 3: you have breafast with him, I would I'd be like, now,

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Speaker 3: do anything to sit down and talk to this guy.

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Speaker 3: But then I really think Alan I have better than breakfast.

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Speaker 3: I have thirteen chapters of his leadership journal, which you know,

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Speaker 3: if you have breakfast with him, you're just hearing.

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Speaker 1: The snapshot of that day. I've got his leadership journal.

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Speaker 3: And then it's even better because as a Christian, I

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Speaker 3: believe it's not only his leadership journal, it's also God's

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Speaker 3: word and that every word is wholly impure and is

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Speaker 3: useful or whipping the Man of God the Woman of

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Speaker 3: God for every good work. So I mean, it's a

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Speaker 3: it's an incredible book. I've spent a lot of time

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Speaker 3: in it. And not that I've had breakfast with me, Amya,

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Speaker 3: I think I've I've had met I've had greater than

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Speaker 3: that I've had. I've had a I've been able to

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Speaker 3: read his Leadership Journal for.

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Speaker 2: Years after the break I'll continue my conversation with Eric Geiger. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I love your I love your metaphor of a

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Speaker 2: leadership journal because in many ways it's a very personal document.

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Speaker 2: It's not just a report of some remarkable leadership exploits,

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Speaker 2: which of course are there, but it begins with his

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Speaker 2: significant time in grieving and and in praying, and in

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Speaker 2: waiting and and discerning, which are in my mind, those

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Speaker 2: are all very root levels sort of activities that it's

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Speaker 2: a great illustration of what you're what you're writing about.

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Speaker 2: Can you say more about that just from your perspective.

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Speaker 3: Yep, you're right, it's not it's not like it's a

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Speaker 3: That's why I use the word journal, because you're seeing

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Speaker 3: some of his wrestling in the beginning. In chapter one,

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Speaker 3: you see his wrestling, but chapter thirteen, which a lot

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Speaker 3: of people kind of skip over chapter thirteen because you

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Speaker 3: can almost feel like he's failed at the very end.

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Speaker 3: But I love it because it's just raw and honest.

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Speaker 3: Then you see Nehemiah in chapter thirteen ending the book praying,

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Speaker 3: and then chapter one beginning the book prain, so it's

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Speaker 3: really it's really his prayer journal.

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Speaker 1: But you're right.

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Speaker 3: It opens with he hears from people who visited him

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Speaker 3: from Jerusalem that the wall is bird is broken, and

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Speaker 3: he's just overwhelmed with a burden for the people there,

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Speaker 3: though he's never been there, even though he's Jewish, he's

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Speaker 3: never been to Jerusalem. He was one who was born

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Speaker 3: into captivity and then rises into this position in the

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Speaker 3: Persian Kingdom, but he's burdened for his own countrymen. And

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Speaker 3: this is, like, to your point, so rooted beneath the

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Speaker 3: surface level. He doesn't begin on a vision retreat with

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Speaker 3: a whiteboard session. He doesn't peruse a whole lot of

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Speaker 3: other websites trying to find this really sticky statement that's

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Speaker 3: going to compel a bunch of people. He just falls

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Speaker 3: on his knees before God and weeps and mourns and

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Speaker 3: fast and praise, and that's where the vision comes from.

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Speaker 3: It it's not it's not like he he borrowed somebody

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Speaker 3: else's vision. He did a lot of really deep work

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Speaker 3: beneath the surface. I'm hearing from God waiting for the

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Speaker 3: right time than to talk to Artist serses the earthly King.

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Speaker 3: But before he talks to ARTI xerx, he's the earthly king.

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Speaker 3: He's gone to the to his heavenly King, to our

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Speaker 3: heavenly King. And it's it's really it's just I love it.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's how I want to lead. It's it's

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Speaker 3: what you were saying. It's the secret, hidden things that

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Speaker 3: Neemiah did in that first chapter, you know, before it's

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Speaker 3: like this really beautiful public announcing of a vision. There's

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Speaker 3: a lot of wrestling neat the service on the front end.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just think, at least to me, this

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Speaker 2: is one of the facets of nea Maya as a

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Speaker 2: man who practices the presence of God. He practices the

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Speaker 2: presence of God and in those hidden places of grieving

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Speaker 2: and praying, but he does the same thing when he's

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Speaker 2: out there engaged in this remarkable work of rebuilding. And

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Speaker 2: so now just sort of pivoting to the subtitle of

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Speaker 2: your book, you talk about seven rhythms. I love that

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Speaker 2: you use the word rhythms. You could have said principles

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Speaker 2: or strategies or habits all have been perfectly good words,

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Speaker 2: but you chose rhythms. I'd love to hear a little

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Speaker 2: bit about kind of that sense of rhythms that produce

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Speaker 2: fruit that lasts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you.

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Speaker 3: You notice, and those seven those seven rhythms are really

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Speaker 3: just a walk through the different fruit that we see

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Speaker 3: in the Amiyah's journey. I did choose the word rhythm

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Speaker 3: because it I think it's the principles are great love.

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Speaker 3: I love leadership principles. I learned from leadership principles, not

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Speaker 3: at all against those words. But a rhythm is me

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Speaker 3: challenging you as a leader to have hold these paradoxes,

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Speaker 3: these intermingling roots beneath the surface as a rhythm in

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Speaker 3: your life. So, for example, we're talking about neemia getting

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Speaker 3: the vision for rebuilding.

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Speaker 1: The wall vision is the fruit.

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Speaker 3: That's that's what people see on the outside, and it's

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Speaker 3: really important. There's if you like, look on Amazon dot

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Speaker 3: Com you'll see six thousand plus books on vision, so

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Speaker 3: leaders know they're supposed to have vision.

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Speaker 1: It can sometimes be an.

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Speaker 3: Intimidating word, but for Nehemiah, that's just what you see

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Speaker 3: on the outside. The real deeper work is the intermingling

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Speaker 3: roots or the rhythm that he has of both burden

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Speaker 3: and belief. And so vision is the fruit of what

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Speaker 3: happens when burden and belief come together beneath the surface.

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Speaker 1: And as a Christian.

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Speaker 3: We we are we should be really skilled at holding

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Speaker 3: burden and belief at the same time, because our faith

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Speaker 3: actually holds both at the same time. We realize that

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Speaker 3: this world is broken, we realize that we're sinful, and

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Speaker 3: yet we believe that Jesus can make all things new.

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Speaker 3: We realize that there's pain and suffering, but we know

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Speaker 3: one day He's going to come and make everything right again.

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Speaker 1: So we constantly are holding burden and belief.

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Speaker 3: And if vision is the intermingling of those, then I

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Speaker 3: means Christians have no matter if you're serving in ministry

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Speaker 3: or marketplace, you can get you can do that.

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Speaker 1: You can get vision. You can because you hold burden

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Speaker 1: and belief.

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Speaker 3: It's a rhythm in your life, and and that you

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Speaker 3: can I hope to demystify the vision word a bit

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Speaker 3: in that chapter. Alan, Yeah, the leaders just feel so

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Speaker 3: much pressure for that, you know that do the deeper

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Speaker 3: work and burden belief will give you a vision for

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Speaker 3: the season that you're in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so well said. I've sometimes wondered if if

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Speaker 2: vision maybe isn't in part any way a reflection of

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Speaker 2: our vision of God, that that somehow it's how Neamiah

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Speaker 2: sees God and God's love for this city and God's

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Speaker 2: love for the protection of this city that somehow energizes

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Speaker 2: in shapes you know, me and Maiah's sense of And so.

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Speaker 1: I love that.

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Speaker 3: I just want to echo what you said there because

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Speaker 3: I think that's so wise, that that vision for how

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Speaker 3: we serves really a reflection of our vision that we

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Speaker 3: have of God. And I think that's I love how

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Speaker 3: you said that. That's what I see in the Amayah

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Speaker 3: in that first chapter. Yeah, because in that prayer he

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Speaker 3: goes to God and he's like, God, you promised, you

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Speaker 3: kept your promise last time the people. You told him

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Speaker 3: that if we didn't keep loving you and if we

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Speaker 3: didn't get rid of idols, that you would remove us

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Speaker 3: from the land, and you did, but you also promised

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Speaker 3: that you would restore. And so Lord, my vision to

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Speaker 3: rebuild this wall comes from who I believe you are.

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Speaker 3: You're going to keep your promise to restore your people

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Speaker 3: to the city. So the reason he could have such

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Speaker 3: this really grand vision was because he believed that this

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Speaker 3: was from God, and that God it keeps his promises.

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Speaker 3: And so for him, while while everyone else thought this

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Speaker 3: is crazy, for him it was fully aligned to who

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Speaker 3: he understands guy to be.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, I love that about Neamiah, and I love

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Speaker 2: that about leadership that you know bears lasting fruit. I

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Speaker 2: think that's often the case. So I'm looking at your

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Speaker 2: table of contents, I'm seeing some of these words that

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Speaker 2: capture the spirit of these rhythms. I'm wondering, in the

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Speaker 2: seven rhythms you mentioned vision, was there one of those

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Speaker 2: seven that felt especially timely for you in the writing

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Speaker 2: or in the releasing of the book.

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Speaker 1: It's a great question.

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Speaker 3: One of them is perseverance, and it's it's probably the

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Speaker 3: fruit that I'm I desire more in my life and

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Speaker 3: am convicted at times.

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Speaker 1: There's times I just want to give up, you know. Yeah, And.

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Speaker 3: So seeing the amias perseverance through his challenges, I mean,

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Speaker 3: really really strong, severe in his face challenges. You have

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Speaker 3: all these neighboring nations, Tambala, Tobiah, Gsham, all these leaders

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Speaker 3: from different groups of people unite together against him. So

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Speaker 3: he's got enemies in the north, the south, east, the west,

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Speaker 3: all around him. And at first they're just essentially making

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Speaker 3: fun of the work and taunting the people, which that's painful.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's painful when people talks back to you.

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Speaker 3: But then they then they try to get him to

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Speaker 3: quit working. Then they threaten him. Then they they threaten

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Speaker 3: that there's gonna be physical violence, and and he doesn't

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Speaker 3: give up, and he doesn't. There's a famous verse in

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Speaker 3: the Amia where he says, I'm building, I'm doing a

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Speaker 3: great work. I can't come down, And people love that verse.

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Speaker 3: I love that verse because it shows this this focus

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Speaker 3: in the midst of distractions, this deep perseverance. But in

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Speaker 3: that chapter there's also two phrases about fighting that really

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Speaker 3: have convicted me. One is he tells the people the

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Speaker 3: Amiah does fight for your lives, your families, your children.

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Speaker 3: And then later in that same chapter, he says our

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Speaker 3: God is fighting for us. So the deeper roots of perseverance.

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Speaker 3: So I it's the fruit that I want to have

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Speaker 3: in my life. But I got I can't just I

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Speaker 3: can't like just look myself in the mirror and say

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Speaker 3: I'm going to persevere.

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Speaker 1: I've got to do the deeper I got to do

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Speaker 1: the deeper work.

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Speaker 3: And the deeper work is being willing to fight for

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Speaker 3: what you believe and which the vision you believe you

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Speaker 3: have from God, but also resting that He's fighting for me,

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Speaker 3: that I can I can go to sleep, I can

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Speaker 3: take a nap, I can take a day off. That

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Speaker 3: the God who watches over us doesn't sleep or slumber.

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Speaker 3: You know that he's always fighting for his own, always

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Speaker 3: working for his own. So that's the that's been the

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Speaker 3: encouragement for me about perseverance. But I'd say alan it

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Speaker 3: was also a convicting study, because sometimes I can get

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Speaker 3: discouraged and forget that God's fighting for me, or sometimes

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Speaker 3: I like I think and I can think I want

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Speaker 3: to do something else, you know, But there's the perseverance

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Speaker 3: that Nehemiah displayed is inspiring, and there's and there's there's

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Speaker 3: beautiful lessons in that in the in that chapter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, and I appreciate you that you

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Speaker 2: highlighted perseverance. I don't know your experience. I get to

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Speaker 2: walk alongside a lot of leaders. There's some ways in

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Speaker 2: which these last five six years kind of post COVID

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Speaker 2: have presented a constellation of challenges that feel sort of

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Speaker 2: very different than challenges I was experiencing in the thirty

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Speaker 2: or so years of ministry before that. I want if

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Speaker 2: you can speak to some of that in this spirit

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Speaker 2: of perseverance.

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Speaker 3: I have heard the same thing from lots of lots

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Speaker 3: of leaders, and I'd say a common conversation with with

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Speaker 3: fears of mind. So people my age and who I've

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Speaker 3: been friends with. A question that sometimes has even asked is, Man,

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Speaker 3: if you if you knew what you know now when

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Speaker 3: you were eighteen nineteen and you said yes to this,

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Speaker 3: you think you would I think you would have said yes,

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Speaker 3: you know, because of the challenges that that this season

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Speaker 3: has been.

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Speaker 1: And listen, let's just be honest.

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Speaker 3: We we have it feels so first world talking about

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Speaker 3: it because we know we have brothers and sisters around

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Speaker 3: the world who are who are having their meetings barged in.

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Speaker 1: They're hiding bibles under mattresses. People are being slaughtered for

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Speaker 1: their faith.

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Speaker 3: So when I'm in this conversation with with with buddies,

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Speaker 3: we recognize we the pain that we're talking about. We're

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Speaker 3: not worried about somebody barging in and taking our lives

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Speaker 3: because of the Gospel right now, like brothers and sisters

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Speaker 3: around the world.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we are.

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Speaker 3: We are saying this from a position of comfort here

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Speaker 3: in the US. But still the question has remained for

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Speaker 3: some would you have done it if you knew that

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Speaker 3: the pain that you would go.

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Speaker 1: Through was in front of you?

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Speaker 3: And the answers are very you know, and these are

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Speaker 3: these are awesome, awesome people being transparent.

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Speaker 1: You know. Some say I don't know. I'm glad I

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Speaker 1: didn't know.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad I didn't know because I'm really grateful for

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Speaker 3: what I'm doing now. And I'm glad I didn't know

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Speaker 3: because there's a gift of Nativity.

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Speaker 1: You know. Others have said, I don't, I don't think

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Speaker 1: I would. I think I I would.

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Speaker 3: Be a small group leader in my church, loving Jesus,

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Speaker 3: raising my family to love Jesus.

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Speaker 1: But I don't. I don't know if I would do

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Speaker 1: this thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, you know, the polarization social media, and also

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Speaker 3: like the the eroding of trust and and and there's

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Speaker 3: there is a distrust towards institutions and towards churches and

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Speaker 3: religious institutions. There was a time when I first went

434
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 3: to the ministry that you know, if you were a

435
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 3: police officer, if you were a pastor, if you were

436
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: serving in the military, those kinds of roles where people

437
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: are so grateful for those kinds of roles, and there's

438
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 3: not that's not necessarily the case now. And now some

439
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 3: of it is sadly allan that we have seen many

440
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 3: ministry leaders topple, which has lowered some trust.

441
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: And and so.

442
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 3: I'm I know I'm talking in a circle, but that

443
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 3: then challenges me. We have to be men and women

444
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 3: of integrity. We have to we have to have character

445
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 3: that is credible, because our message of Jesus is credible,

446
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 3: and our lives should match the messages that we preach.

447
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: For sure.

448
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate your honest response to that, because I'm

449
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: I'm hearing some of those similar things. I kind of

450
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: think of Peter in the Gospel of John when Jesus

451
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 2: starts saying a few things that are a little tough

452
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: for the disciples to say amen to, you know, John six,

453
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: and Jesus sort of turns to Peterson, what about you?

454
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 2: Are you taking off? You know? And yeah, I love

455
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 2: Peter sort of well, I don't know where else i'd go.

456
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: I don't have a plan would be. You have the

457
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: words of eternal life.

458
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 3: We believe that, we know that you're the Holy One

459
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: of God Don six sixty sixty sixty nine.

460
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: A lot of that one, huh, I have I do.

461
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: We're sure no one else can do for us what

462
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: He's done for us.

463
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,479
Speaker 2: That's right, And those are the things that in the

464
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 2: midst of the discouraging realities the anyway, those are what

465
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 2: give me hope. Those are what sustained me. So again

466
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 2: back to your metaphor of rooted the rooted leader. You know, again,

467
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: a lot of people's assessment of leadership is on the

468
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: basis of visible outcomes of leadership, and that's appropriate, of course,

469
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 2: But then again, in the spirit of what I think

470
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,719
Speaker 2: you're writing, there's something that happens in the root system,

471
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,479
Speaker 2: in the hidden, in the places of leadership nobody else sees.

472
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 2: I wonder if you can talk a little bit about

473
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: the impact of the leader's unseen life on the leader's

474
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 2: scene life.

475
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, the people that we serve, they benefit from leaders

476
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: that are healthy, and healthy leadership is created in the unseen.

477
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 3: It's all the spiritual disciplines that we know. It's time

478
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 3: in scripture. It's healthy relationships with your family. It's taking

479
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 3: a day off and resting and enjoying His creation. It's

480
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 3: it's it's finding ways to serve that that you are

481
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 3: reminded you you're doing this because you're a Christian, not

482
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 3: because you're on staff.

483
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: You know.

484
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: It's it's all of those things that compound over time

485
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 3: that not only protect you from oppling, but they also

486
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 3: make you a person who really does have credibility because

487
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 3: your life is matching your words. You know, Paul told Timothy,

488
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: watch your life and your doctrine. Persevere these and you'll

489
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 3: save yourself and your hearers. And so your life has

490
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 3: to be watched just like your doctrines.

491
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: Watch. You know, there's.

492
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 3: Church leaders wisely watch Hey, here's what we teach, here's

493
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: what we believe.

494
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: You should totally watch that. But you also should watch

495
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: your life, you know.

496
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 3: Closely, to be sure that that the roots beneath the

497
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: surface are healthy.

498
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 2: I think that's so important, and uh, you know, it's

499
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 2: it's those things, you know, gush. It doesn't seem like

500
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: a lot of people ask us about our inner life,

501
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: our personal life. They and to ask us as leaders

502
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: about our public life and about our public initiatives. But

503
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: but but to your point, it really is what's happening

504
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 2: in my day to day, week to week, month to month,

505
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: that I.

506
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: Do have people around me who do ask about beneath

507
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 1: the surface. And you're saying that, I know that. I'm

508
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: just I'm reminded by that I have.

509
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 3: It really good because I have people who who care

510
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 3: about that in my life, probably more than they care

511
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 3: about the public.

512
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: You know, they care, they they care about they care.

513
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: I have a good. I have a good That is

514
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: so beautiful.

515
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: I'm grateful to hear that. Well. I wanted to sort

516
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: of ask you. You know, you've been in leadership a while.

517
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: You've written on the theme of leadership over the years.

518
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: I wonder in your journey of leadership, what are some

519
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 2: things you've learned most recently, or what are some things

520
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: that have become increasingly important to you or focal for

521
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: you in your own leadership lately?

522
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. A couple of things just

523
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: off without my head.

524
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 3: I'm teaching right now through the Book of Numbers, and

525
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 3: we're walking through, like over a five year period of time,

526
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: the story of the Old Testament, the narrator of the

527
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 3: Old Testament. So year one was Genesis exous. Year two's numbers,

528
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 3: Year three Joshua Judges and so on. So we're in

529
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: numbers right now. And I've read numbers and studied the

530
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 3: Book of Numbers, but I've never preached through the Book Numbers.

531
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: And I.

532
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: Maybe just because it's fresh that I'm answering this. I've

533
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: been blown away at how seriously God took negativity and complaining.

534
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: You know, the people are complaining in the in the

535
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: wilderness about He's given us bread, Like all they had

536
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: to do is walk out of their tent and open

537
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: the tent and there's free bread door dash from God

538
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 3: to them. But they complain about it because they want meat.

539
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: And they start saying really stupid things like the fish

540
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 3: we had was free back in Egypt, and there's it

541
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: was guys, it wasn't free.

542
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: This is so foolish. You were slaves. You worked all

543
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: day for these people, And then so you could work

544
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: some more, they would give you some fish. This was

545
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: this was not free.

546
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: So complaining just makes us foolish, and complaining spreads. You

547
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 3: see that when the spies going to the land and

548
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 3: they ten of them come back and say, it's true,

549
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: it's milk and honey. But but but however, however these

550
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: people are are are mass and the cities are fortified,

551
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 3: and their negative complaint spreads throughout.

552
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: So I've been convicted.

553
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 3: I haven't really preached this part of the because my

554
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 3: sermons aren't a leadership talk. But I have been challenged

555
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 3: as a leader that I have sometimes shrugged off complaining.

556
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: I mean, if I hear of, hey, this person's complaining

557
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: or this person, I'm like, you know, it's okay, it'll

558
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 3: get better. But how seriously God takes complaining he addressed,

559
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 3: and I have not. I have not always been fast

560
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: to address complaining. I've been quick to address other things.

561
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 3: You know, I've addressed other quote unquote leadership sins and

562
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 3: and on teams I've led. But I'm not always I'm

563
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: not always really I haven't taken it as seriously as

564
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: I should.

565
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: So that's been that's been convicting.

566
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: I've also been in the season now where I'm overwhelmed,

567
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,719
Speaker 3: but I have learned to actually look forward to seasons

568
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: of being overwhelmed. And like some people resist being overwhelmed,

569
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 3: I think it's a mistake to resist being overwhelmed, because

570
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 3: I think you won't grow as a leader if you

571
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 3: don't have seasons of being overwhelmed. Just like if you

572
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 3: go to the gym and you want to grow muscle,

573
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: you have to actually put more weight on the bar.

574
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: You have to overwhelm your muscles so they they'll grow.

575
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 3: So I've learned, and I and it's fresh for me

576
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: because I'm in a season right now where I just

577
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: there's a big goal, there's big there's big things that

578
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 3: were running after, and there's times where I'm in bed

579
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 3: at night praying, Lord Jesus, I need your help.

580
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: This is crazy. What have I gotten myself into?

581
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 3: And that, But then I look back at his faithfulness

582
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: and He's always pulled me through those seasons. And in

583
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: seasons of being overwhelmed, you're forced to learn a new skill.

584
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 3: You're forced to look at your calendar and simplify so

585
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: you can focus on what's most.

586
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: Important you're foced to.

587
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: You're forced to make some really important decisions that free

588
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: you up to run after what you believe God's placed

589
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 3: in front of you. So I guess the two things

590
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: just alan off the top of my head. I'm convicted

591
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: that I sometimes tolerate complaining in my life and then others,

592
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 3: And then I'm reminded that being overwhelmed can be really

593
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: fruitful as long as you don't get too much weight

594
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 3: in the bar, enough weight that you have to grow,

595
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: but not too much weight that you get crushed.

596
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: Those are such good ones. I love the complaining one

597
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: because it highlights how sometimes something that seems like no

598
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: big deal like that can contribute it to anything like

599
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: toppling complaining. How could that be a problem, and yet

600
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: it would be that chronic, ongoing sort of dynamic really does.

601
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: And then our hearts.

602
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: I can ruin my heart by complaining, because everything that

603
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 3: comes out of my mouth enters back into my ear

604
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: and seeps into my heart and corrodes me. So I've

605
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 3: got to be careful about complaining in my own life.

606
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: For sure. And then just the reality of being able

607
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: to welcome sort of that discomfort that maybe it's redemptive discomfort.

608
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: Got to stay on the edge of maybe I can't

609
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: do this all by myself. Maybe it's good news that

610
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: I don't think I can.

611
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: You know, right, yes, yes, holy or redemptive discomfort, that's good.

612
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: Well, So as we kind of come to a close

613
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: of our conversation, I can imagine a leader listening. Maybe

614
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: they're they're looking at their life and they're sensing a

615
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: little bit of instability under the surface. Maybe it's not

616
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: a crisis yet, but maybe they're feeling maybe some warning signs.

617
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: Having heard you share some, I wonder if you just speak,

618
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: as a fellow leader to this listener, a word of encouragement,

619
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 2: a word of spiritual direction something.

620
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 3: Well, if you're sensing warning signs, that's awesome. Congratulations. That

621
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 3: means that guy is pursuing you and giving you an

622
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: opportunity to make some changes in your life, to turn

623
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 3: to him, which er Tillian, the early church father said,

624
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: I was born for nothing but repentance, meaning I got

625
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: to repent every day.

626
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: I got to come back to Him every day.

627
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 3: So it's it's part of the Christian life. We constantly

628
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: come back to Him for grace and for strength and

629
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 3: for power from Him, not our own power. So I'd

630
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 3: say to the leader Hey, man, just come back to

631
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 3: his grace. Just ask him for wisdom all what needs

632
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: to change, and come back to him.

633
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: That's such a good word. Well, it's been a joy

634
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 2: to speak with you about this book again. My guest

635
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: today has been Eric Geiger and we've been talking about

636
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: his book The Rooted Leader. Thanks again for your time.

637
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 3: Alan, It was such an honor to hang out with

638
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 3: you man. Thanks thanks for being so thoughtful with your questions.

639
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed the conversation.

640
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Unhurried Living podcast. To

641
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 2: learn more about us, visit unhurriedliving dot com. In the

642
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: show notes, you'll find helpful links and information about our

643
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: partner Life Audio and all of their other faith centered

644
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: podcast it