WEBVTT - Explosive: Lovingly Confronting Silence & Arrogance

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<v Speaker 1>Life audio.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's so important to be filled with the spirit

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<v Speaker 2>of God, to be humble Amen, broken time with the

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<v Speaker 2>Lord in his word, and then from that reservoir of

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<v Speaker 2>intimacy with him, you're going to know how to handle

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<v Speaker 2>these issues.

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<v Speaker 1>What just struck me is like a humility and a

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<v Speaker 1>willingness to speak about your brokenness.

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<v Speaker 2>Right before God uses a man greatly, he often hurts

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<v Speaker 2>him deeply, and so it's just a series of God

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<v Speaker 2>just continuing to break and break, and it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be a process till the day I die. And actually

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<v Speaker 2>the more I broke, the more He used me.

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<v Speaker 1>After the death of Charlie Kirk, there seems to be

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<v Speaker 1>two general responses. One, now is the time to go

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<v Speaker 1>on the offensive. The time for charity and kindness is over. Two,

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<v Speaker 1>we need to talk with one another more than ever,

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<v Speaker 1>and we need to calm down some of the rhetoric.

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<v Speaker 1>Bill Bridges, I know that's a simplification, but tell me

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<v Speaker 1>where you land on that and why.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you know and you might hear me say

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<v Speaker 2>this a few times as we talk. But it's so

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<v Speaker 2>important to be filled with the spirit of God, to

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<v Speaker 2>be humble, Amen, broken time with the Lord in his word,

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<v Speaker 2>and then from that reservoir of intimate intimacy with him,

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to know how to handle these issues because

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<v Speaker 2>both cowardliness not saying anything and arrogantly beating people up

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<v Speaker 2>with your words both come from a fleshly desire. It's

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<v Speaker 2>it's a flesh taking over. So I think, on one hand,

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<v Speaker 2>we need to speak the truth and love a lot more.

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<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, we've got to make sure

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<v Speaker 2>it's the right tone, the right the rhetoric and the anger.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, America right now is extremely angry. But are

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<v Speaker 2>we broken? You know, we're upset, but are we humble?

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<v Speaker 2>And so I know some people won't to hear that,

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<v Speaker 2>but it needs to come from that type of heart

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<v Speaker 2>because it's hard to say here's how you need to act.

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<v Speaker 2>When what about if my actions require silence and just

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<v Speaker 2>loving the person listening to them, what about my actions

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<v Speaker 2>it is at a different point required me. You know

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<v Speaker 2>what I've had You're going to say something school board

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<v Speaker 2>meetings or whatever's going on, I know, and so being

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<v Speaker 2>sensitive to the leading of the spirit, because I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think we can just throw a blanket statement on everything.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, For example, if I said, yeah, speak the

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<v Speaker 2>truth and love and fight back, and that's going to

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<v Speaker 2>send the wrong message. But at the same time, don't

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<v Speaker 2>say anything, just turn the other cheek. It's funny. Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>didn't turn the other cheek when he was.

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<v Speaker 1>Slabbed, That's true.

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<v Speaker 2>He said why, why? What evil have I done? Why

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<v Speaker 2>have you slapped me? And so I think there's no

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<v Speaker 2>blanket approach. If that makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>It does. So your person is not going to be

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<v Speaker 1>lack of a better I guess, dictated by the cultural

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<v Speaker 1>moment whatever that is. No, not at all, and even

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<v Speaker 1>one bit. It's more like I get my life right

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<v Speaker 1>before the Lord filled with the spirit. There's a time

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<v Speaker 1>for grace, there's a time for truth, and that's the

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<v Speaker 1>way it's always been since the beginning, the way it

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<v Speaker 1>always will. Is that a fair synopsis, I think it is.

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<v Speaker 2>But of course we have to be sense of where

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<v Speaker 2>the culture is, you know, because there is a time

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<v Speaker 2>and a place to put on the big boy pants

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<v Speaker 2>and say something you know or do? I mean you

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<v Speaker 2>look at where the state of our nation is. I

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<v Speaker 2>think a lot of it has to do with the

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<v Speaker 2>silence and the pulpits. The pulpits are not to proclaim

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<v Speaker 2>you look at the top ten pastors right now and

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<v Speaker 2>watch their messages. You're not going to hear repentance, the

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<v Speaker 2>Blood of Christ, judgment, the cross, all these foundational things.

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<v Speaker 2>So looking at the state of the church and the culture,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it will require action. But also it has

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<v Speaker 2>to come from the reservoir that time spent with God.

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<v Speaker 2>And I've noticed, maybe you have to The more time

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<v Speaker 2>I spend with God, the bolder I become interesting. Right now,

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<v Speaker 2>boldness doesn't always mean loud and in your face. It

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes means that gentle unwavering or that gentle pushback. And

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<v Speaker 2>I've just noticed, over seasons of fasting and spending time

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<v Speaker 2>with God, the word of lie word of God come alive.

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<v Speaker 2>Like just last week when God told Jeremiah, don't diminish

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<v Speaker 2>one word, don't diminish one word. Preach what I've called

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<v Speaker 2>you to preach. And you look at Jeremiah twenty three.

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<v Speaker 2>The false prophets, actually a sure sign of a false

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<v Speaker 2>prophet is saying peace, Peace, God's happy with our life.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't worry man. God's not upset. He's a doting grandfather,

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<v Speaker 2>He's a cosmic ball of love. Peace man. And God said,

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<v Speaker 2>I've not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I've not spoken,

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<v Speaker 2>but they spoke. But had they truly stood in my

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<v Speaker 2>counsel the word of God, they could have turned this

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<v Speaker 2>nation back to me. My words like a hammer. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like a fire that devours.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's part of the tension, right. We are called

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<v Speaker 1>to be peacemakers, yes, but not false peace that avoids

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<v Speaker 1>the truth of the Gospel and sin before for the Lord,

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<v Speaker 1>et cetera. How we balance those two is kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the constant tension. And I want to come back, not

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<v Speaker 1>right now, but I don't come back to a few

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<v Speaker 1>things you said about the purpose of the pulpit, which

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<v Speaker 1>is really important today.

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<v Speaker 2>It is.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, how being in scripture it gives you more boldness.

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<v Speaker 1>But for me, I was thinking about this conversation. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the hardest issues that I deal with as an

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<v Speaker 1>apologist are not violenced in the Old Testament, and those

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<v Speaker 1>are legitimate tough questions. Are not like the morality of say, hell,

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<v Speaker 1>how God could be justifiled out, or claims that the

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<v Speaker 1>Gospels contradict or scientific challenges to God. Those are not

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<v Speaker 1>the toughest ones. The hardest questions I tend to deal

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<v Speaker 1>with are more personal for people and for myself. How

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<v Speaker 1>do I balance grace and how do I balance truth?

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<v Speaker 1>And our culture where there's such competing different world views.

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<v Speaker 1>Sometimes I'm like, I don't know which voice is the

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<v Speaker 1>best for right now, so help me. And I have

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<v Speaker 1>my response to that in some ways, but I want

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<v Speaker 1>to know how you think about balancing grace and truth,

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<v Speaker 1>and I would just frame it. You're right that there

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<v Speaker 1>should be eternal principles, but we live in such an angry,

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<v Speaker 1>divided culture, angry divided church that rewards people for responding

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<v Speaker 1>in a certain way, which some ways militates against what

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<v Speaker 1>should be a biblical approach. So what's your thinking through

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<v Speaker 1>and how you balance grace and truth in your life

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe with people in your church.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know what, right at the beginning, what you

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<v Speaker 2>just said is so important for people to realize the

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<v Speaker 2>reason it's easier for us to answer, you know, how

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<v Speaker 2>could a loving God allow this in the Old Testament?

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<v Speaker 2>All right? Wipe out the city? Or how do you

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<v Speaker 2>how do you know the Pauline epistles, or how do

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<v Speaker 2>you know the gospels are accurate? Or how do you

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<v Speaker 2>you know? Because there's there's a standard answer that's very

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<v Speaker 2>no matter who. I mean, your Dad's book really helped

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<v Speaker 2>me when I came back to the Lord on evidence

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<v Speaker 2>that demands a verge. Absolutely, I couldn't put that thing down.

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<v Speaker 2>I highlighted it and it really internalized it.

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<v Speaker 1>My goodness.

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<v Speaker 2>But when it comes to these issues, it's like, where

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<v Speaker 2>do you offer you know, as one example, the pronoun idea,

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<v Speaker 2>if I'm in Starbucks and I say, hey, thanks, grace,

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<v Speaker 2>he goes, I'm he him, probably not gonna you know, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>thanks and have a good day. But if it's a constant,

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<v Speaker 2>like I'm working with him or I'm seeing him every day,

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<v Speaker 2>at some point maybe maybe I'm Lordy, what do you

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<v Speaker 2>want me to do? I want to just have grace

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<v Speaker 2>and love. But at the same time, this is I

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<v Speaker 2>can't personally do that, and so maybe the boldness to say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>why do you say and open that conversation. So it

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<v Speaker 2>depends on the situation. It depends on Sometimes you need

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<v Speaker 2>to speak up, you know, but other times we need

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<v Speaker 2>to offer that that love and grace. So how do

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<v Speaker 2>I find the balance? Well, number one, I know we're

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<v Speaker 2>not Jesus right he equally balanced truth and grace. But

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<v Speaker 2>I also look at I love context, which I know

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<v Speaker 2>you do as well. Context and you actually challenge me.

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<v Speaker 2>You probably don't remember this. About ten years ago, we

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<v Speaker 2>spoke together humulate and I used, if my people are

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<v Speaker 2>called by my name, humble themselves. You said, that's really

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<v Speaker 2>for Israel. I'm like, oh, that's a good point, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it is.

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<v Speaker 1>I say that you. I don't even remember I was

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<v Speaker 1>going to go to you, and I just said, like,

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<v Speaker 1>I just challenged.

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<v Speaker 2>You, but that was it, and I didn't push back

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<v Speaker 2>because it's like, because you're right, because you know, God

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<v Speaker 2>said when I bring pestilent, famin drought, if my people

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<v Speaker 2>are called by my name, so you can have Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that context is Israel. But I think the principle still applies.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, if America humbled her self, but God judged

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<v Speaker 2>judges people differently nation, I mean, that's a whole another yea.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So my point is I look at context of speak

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<v Speaker 2>the truth in love. Right, well, if you look at

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning, in the end, it's about maturing and growing

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<v Speaker 2>up in the faith. So it's like we must speak

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<v Speaker 2>the truth and love in order that people mature and

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<v Speaker 2>grow up in the faith. Ironically, I'm driving here this

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<v Speaker 2>morning and I had this perfect example. A friend of

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<v Speaker 2>mine spoke for me last night and Wednesday night because

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<v Speaker 2>name's Chris, and I challenged him over a decade ago

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<v Speaker 2>because he was involved with what I say, hyper charismatic,

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<v Speaker 2>you know kind of and and I just lovingly times

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<v Speaker 2>I would say, man, you got to just be careful

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<v Speaker 2>because and then now he thanks me, but back then

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<v Speaker 2>it was a little well and you know, you're not overly,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, pushy, but like, hey, have you thought about this?

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<v Speaker 2>So to answer the question more directly, each situation requires

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<v Speaker 2>probably and I have to watch it because if I'm

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<v Speaker 2>if I'm moody, if I'm gonna I mean type a personality.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you talked about this, which we agree on.

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<v Speaker 2>There are different callings. Yeah, you know your calling is

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<v Speaker 2>going to be maybe more gentler and more just love,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, John, John the Beloved where God's wired me

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<v Speaker 2>as John the Baptist. Right, So I'm gonna be I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna be a little bit more in your face with

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<v Speaker 2>the sermons. And and but I see the fruit, I

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<v Speaker 2>see the change lies. I see that, and so knowing

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<v Speaker 2>I can't equally balance that tension, right, I don't think. Man,

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<v Speaker 2>I've lived perfectly this week. I perfectly balance grace and

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<v Speaker 2>love and grace and truth. So speaking the truth and

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<v Speaker 2>love when it needs to be said, spending that time

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<v Speaker 2>with God. I think the New Testaments clear you err

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<v Speaker 2>on the side of grace. I you know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>we could agree. If you're gonna air, you're probably gonna

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<v Speaker 2>air on the side of grace. But there comes a

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<v Speaker 2>time and a place where you've got to speak the

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<v Speaker 2>truth and love. And what does grace look like? It

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean sweeping sin underneath the carpet. It means to me,

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<v Speaker 2>grace means, hey, you know what. I know you fell.

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<v Speaker 2>We've talked about that before. You know where I stand.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know what, you got to get back up

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<v Speaker 2>and keep fighting. And so you were able to lovingly rebuke.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that's what I do at my church. It

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<v Speaker 2>depends what a person's going through. If I've got a

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<v Speaker 2>dad who's unrepentant, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot

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<v Speaker 2>him pretty straight. And look what you're doing to your family,

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<v Speaker 2>Look what's costing your kids, and I'll put on this,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. But if there's another guy just came in

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<v Speaker 2>and he's he's struggling with alcohol and he fell again. Man,

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<v Speaker 2>just get back up, get to that altar. So it

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<v Speaker 2>depends on unreally where the where the spirit's leading me.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that's not a cop out, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's you know, and being and being careful because our

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<v Speaker 2>emotions play a role in that too.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's a cop out. I think we

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<v Speaker 1>all want a line of exactly what we're supposed to do. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's natural, but life is messy.

0:10:58.760 --> 0:10:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Part of my answer I get when I get asked

0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.280
<v Speaker 1>this question is I say, we're gonna have to live

0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.160
<v Speaker 1>in the tension of grace and truth. And if you're

0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:11.160
<v Speaker 1>not living in that tension, either you're probably speaking too

0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.079
<v Speaker 1>much truth or showing too much grace in the sense

0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:19.000
<v Speaker 1>of not speaking truth true. So there's kind of a

0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.600
<v Speaker 1>natural push and pull because I hear new circumstances, I

0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.600
<v Speaker 1>hear new issues. I'm in the moment, So I think

0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.600
<v Speaker 1>all of us are gonna have to live in a

0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.640
<v Speaker 1>certain tension. But the other piece I also think is

0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:32.520
<v Speaker 1>you said we were an event, I don't know, six

0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:36.000
<v Speaker 1>or eight weeks ago Pastor's conference for KKLA, and you

0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.160
<v Speaker 1>also said something that's been in the back of my mind,

0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:40.840
<v Speaker 1>you said to me, you said, you said, I'm more

0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.200
<v Speaker 1>like referring to yourself a John the Baptist, you might

0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.360
<v Speaker 1>be more like a John the Beloved right, And that

0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.640
<v Speaker 1>like really hit me. I've been thinking about that because

0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:54.280
<v Speaker 1>I remember a spiritually pivotal moment for me is I

0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.319
<v Speaker 1>was sitting here at Biola in the Eagle's Nest and

0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:58.880
<v Speaker 1>I was reading a book by Brennan Manning and he

0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.920
<v Speaker 1>made a point. This scene so obvious now, but at

0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.880
<v Speaker 1>the point was game changing. He said, spiritual maturity for

0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:11.640
<v Speaker 1>different people will look different based on their giftings, and

0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:15.679
<v Speaker 1>for me, at that point, spiritual maturity was my father right,

0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:17.679
<v Speaker 1>And so I thought, if I'm not as bold as

0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.880
<v Speaker 1>he is, and I had certain characteristics that define him,

0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.440
<v Speaker 1>then I'm not spiritually mature. And I remember reading that going,

0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.240
<v Speaker 1>oh my goodness, there are certain spirits of the fruit

0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.559
<v Speaker 1>in his life I want. But I'm also wired differently,

0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.960
<v Speaker 1>so it might look a little bit differently. Do you

0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.160
<v Speaker 1>agree that that when we talk about like the tension

0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.800
<v Speaker 1>between grace and truth, we have different wirings and it's

0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.160
<v Speaker 1>not gonna look the same for you as it does

0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.240
<v Speaker 1>for me. And should we celebrate that, and maybe we

0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.839
<v Speaker 1>go wrong when we think I'm a true teller and

0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.920
<v Speaker 1>if everybody's not like me, then they're airing. That's what

0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.040
<v Speaker 1>I think concerns me. Or on the flip side, someone's like,

0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.360
<v Speaker 1>I just I show grace. Everybody needs to show grace.

0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.720
<v Speaker 1>It's like, yeah, but I do have a prophetic voice

0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.680
<v Speaker 1>and this person needs to repent. That's kind of what

0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:03.679
<v Speaker 1>I see your thoughts.

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's it's exactly you summed up well, because how

0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.200
<v Speaker 2>God has wired us and I've I think what this

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.679
<v Speaker 2>conversation started with you. I don't remember how it came up,

0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.880
<v Speaker 2>but why and even why I started thinking I think

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:19.200
<v Speaker 2>that many years ago. Is I've got pastor friends and

0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.840
<v Speaker 2>they are just incredible. I mean I've listened to sermons.

0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they ever get what's a good word,

0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:25.880
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.120
<v Speaker 1>Fired up, animated, animated.

0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, It's just they're just man, good teachers and solid

0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 2>And you know Chuck Smith's example, you know Dan hear

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Cover Chapels or uh, I mean we can list a

0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of good, good teachers. Even John MacArthur's kind of

0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 2>just just just straight, but he was bold. So you

0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.640
<v Speaker 2>compare him with Chuck say or you know, like when

0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.640
<v Speaker 2>I was studying theology, I would read Jack K. Fred

0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.640
<v Speaker 2>and John MacArthur, you know, try to find that ballance interesting.

0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.000
<v Speaker 2>So I think there is a wiring like God, you know,

0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.240
<v Speaker 2>let's say, God, I've given you this burden in your

0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.719
<v Speaker 2>heart to call the nation to repentance, and and you're

0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.960
<v Speaker 2>going to be bold and repentance and and just press

0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>in and animated like a Whitfield or Wesley. And you

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.679
<v Speaker 2>read their journals compared to Jonathan Edwards who is very

0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.640
<v Speaker 2>just reading his manuscript, where other people preach their whole

0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>body and their messages were different. And so that's what

0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean. It's kind of a compliment people, because I

0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.800
<v Speaker 2>would get a lot of people. I wish my pastor

0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:16.679
<v Speaker 2>was like you, well, no, you don't, you're just you're

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:18.800
<v Speaker 2>just you're just glad I'm bold and you're not. You know,

0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.680
<v Speaker 2>six months from now you'll have issues with me too, right,

0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.920
<v Speaker 2>or or other church a man Shamey's a calm down

0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.280
<v Speaker 2>a little bit right, he's just too like, you know,

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.040
<v Speaker 2>and so you realize, you know, I'm just gonna be

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:34.280
<v Speaker 2>comfortable in how God designed me. And there are I believe,

0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.640
<v Speaker 2>there are different callings and we talked about before, even

0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.000
<v Speaker 2>with political arena. Thank God for the Tony Perkins Ordopsin's

0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.880
<v Speaker 2>or those, even though that might not be somebody else's wheelhouse,

0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Like why are they so involved? We should think them

0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.480
<v Speaker 2>that they are, and why are you so involved? I'm

0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.960
<v Speaker 2>not And okay, glad you're not because your main calling

0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 2>is a homeless in your ministry and you know you

0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.720
<v Speaker 2>don't say what happens is we've become wrongly judgmental is

0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.200
<v Speaker 2>where I'm trying to get to. I see a lot

0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.160
<v Speaker 2>of people wrongly judgmental, Like I I'm bold. I'm this

0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.400
<v Speaker 2>bold pastor. I've got one hundred thousand Instagram followers and

0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.640
<v Speaker 2>I call it out and these other pastors are weak

0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.480
<v Speaker 2>and they're woke and not necessarily it could be different callings,

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, different the way God has wired us differently,

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:15.760
<v Speaker 2>and thank God for that. So it just was a

0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 2>real I went through a Pharisee season. Can all that.

0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:20.400
<v Speaker 1>I want to come back to that this is actually

0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.840
<v Speaker 1>really important. But when you said to your comfort, I

0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.960
<v Speaker 1>think you use the word I'm comfortable in my calling. Yes,

0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.120
<v Speaker 1>I want to clarify what you mean by that, because

0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm comfortable in the sense of I know who God

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 1>has called me to be, and I'm an apologist. I

0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.640
<v Speaker 1>speak truth, but I consider myself a relational apologist. I

0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.120
<v Speaker 1>like to have conversations. I'm not threatened by people who

0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.160
<v Speaker 1>see the world differently. I've had some debates, and I

0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.240
<v Speaker 1>enjoy it as much as the next person. I have

0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.680
<v Speaker 1>a competitive edge about me. I'm just drawn to like

0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.240
<v Speaker 1>sit down and connect with people's That's my lane. So

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm comfortable in that. But I also don't want to

0:15:56.000 --> 0:16:00.160
<v Speaker 1>be too comfortable. I do like just two weeks ago, oh,

0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.520
<v Speaker 1>I have a professor here and he goes Sean. Sometimes

0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 1>you say things like you know this gives me pause. Yeah,

0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.320
<v Speaker 1>you go sometimes just tell people what you think. And

0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.680
<v Speaker 1>I was like, you know what, You're probably right about that.

0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.080
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes I might nuance things too much because I want

0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.160
<v Speaker 1>to think about it, like that's a fair challenge to me.

0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.960
<v Speaker 1>So I'm comfortable in my arena, but I also want

0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 1>to be made uncomfortable so I can grow and get better.

0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.400
<v Speaker 1>So tell me what that means for you to be

0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 1>comfortable on God's design but uncomfortable at the same time

0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:33.880
<v Speaker 1>when someone pushes you.

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.920
<v Speaker 2>You actually just reveal the gold mine here. I hope

0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:42.960
<v Speaker 2>people realize because some people can be comfortable and not offending,

0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:48.680
<v Speaker 2>like that's my goal, or maybe a bolden creatures pastors

0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.360
<v Speaker 2>can be they man they want to offend, and that's

0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:52.960
<v Speaker 2>not good either.

0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.040
<v Speaker 1>They've got to they got the sake of offending.

0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.560
<v Speaker 2>They got to put on the brakes or somebody else

0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.560
<v Speaker 2>might need to put on the gas. So what I

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.640
<v Speaker 2>mean is, and I don't know who you used to like,

0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.639
<v Speaker 2>who do you gravitate towards as you when you're younger?

0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean what type of books and speakers for me?

0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:14.600
<v Speaker 2>I loved books on revival American church history, first grade Awakening,

0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.880
<v Speaker 2>second grade Awakening. I mean I devoured those new Hebridge revivals.

0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:21.680
<v Speaker 2>Duncan Campbell, d Martin, Lloyd Jones recommended. De Martin Lloyd

0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:25.679
<v Speaker 2>Jones recommended a series of books men like Hal Harris, Griffin, Jones,

0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.080
<v Speaker 2>Daniel Rowlands in Welsh and Scotland. I don't know why,

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:31.919
<v Speaker 2>but God, because that's how I'm wired. And then so

0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.639
<v Speaker 2>I like the Wilkerson raven Hilltosers, okay, because that's how

0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:40.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm wired. But that that's a hard calling because you

0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:44.480
<v Speaker 2>do convict, you do upset more than most. You say

0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.520
<v Speaker 2>it like it is, and I finally just got comfortable

0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.240
<v Speaker 2>with that, like, Okay, this is how I'm wired, you know,

0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.680
<v Speaker 2>because I came out of the fitness industry as a

0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.919
<v Speaker 2>district manager running fitness centers, and so I was a

0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.720
<v Speaker 2>motivational speaker, right, so.

0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:00.000
<v Speaker 1>This is before you're even a Christian.

0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:04.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's a transitionary period. God use that to bring

0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.840
<v Speaker 2>me back the prodigal son come home. But I would

0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.320
<v Speaker 2>go in like, okay, fill out surveys. You know what

0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.080
<v Speaker 2>was the speaker's appearance, How did they And so it's

0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:16.720
<v Speaker 2>all based on men's approval. A motivational speaker motivation. Now

0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:18.720
<v Speaker 2>it's like spending time with God, the words coming alive

0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.240
<v Speaker 2>in my heart and just preach it. And it's when

0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:25.040
<v Speaker 2>you do that, you know, it's not always popular. And

0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.199
<v Speaker 2>so I had to become comfortable in the calling that

0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.600
<v Speaker 2>God has given me to say the hard things. And

0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.000
<v Speaker 2>I believe the more God has called a person to

0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.280
<v Speaker 2>be that that voice of truth and that, like you said,

0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.600
<v Speaker 2>that prophetic voice, I believe there are different you. Actually,

0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.840
<v Speaker 2>the more humble you have to be because pride is

0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.600
<v Speaker 2>self exaltation and I'm always right and that's how you

0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.280
<v Speaker 2>fall in ministry is because of pride. So you have

0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.600
<v Speaker 2>pride on the sense of us who are bold, but

0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 2>you also have pride on the other hand what we

0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.120
<v Speaker 2>call the woke or whatever you want to call it,

0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.239
<v Speaker 2>the cowardly, that they don't want to offend anybody. They

0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:06.159
<v Speaker 2>don't upset anybody. And in the Gospel, Oswald Chambers actually

0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:08.480
<v Speaker 2>says the message of the Gospel hurts and offense until

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.720
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing left to hurting to offend. And he's true.

0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.639
<v Speaker 2>And so so that side, I'm not saying you that

0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:16.919
<v Speaker 2>the other side has. They have to. They have to.

0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:18.600
<v Speaker 2>They have to spend time with God and get that

0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.439
<v Speaker 2>boldness back, get that fire the spirit back, and then

0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.240
<v Speaker 2>others of us have to spend that time with God

0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.840
<v Speaker 2>to stay humble and to be broken, impliable and usable

0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:28.919
<v Speaker 2>by Him. So that's I have to get comfortable, because

0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a hard calling to to. I mean, you look

0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:36.040
<v Speaker 2>at Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Mica

0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.560
<v Speaker 2>and Nahem, you know, the minor, the major, the voices

0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.520
<v Speaker 2>that really spoke God's word faithfully and even difficult to

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.200
<v Speaker 2>a nation that didn't want to hear it. It's it

0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.720
<v Speaker 2>is hard. So that's why Matt became comfortable with I'm

0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:50.760
<v Speaker 2>going to ruffle feathers.

0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:51.479
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.040
<v Speaker 2>But the testimonies that come in are are just amazing,

0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and so you have to look at that fruit as well.

0:19:57.280 --> 0:19:58.919
<v Speaker 1>So let's go to your backstory. Well, he said at

0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:04.400
<v Speaker 1>the beginning, it was something effective being bold, like America.

0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, there's a truth in boldness, but as America broken.

0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:10.240
<v Speaker 1>You and I were speaking event a few weeks ago,

0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:12.560
<v Speaker 1>and you texted me on my way out as I'm

0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 1>driving home, like right, and I got in my card,

0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 1>hit traffic for like two hours, perfect time, and it

0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.600
<v Speaker 1>was a message that you shared and Shane, I was

0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.919
<v Speaker 1>in tears as I was driving down I don't know

0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.119
<v Speaker 1>if it was the five or whatever freeway it was,

0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.280
<v Speaker 1>and just thinking, oh my goodness, here's somebody from the

0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:33.560
<v Speaker 1>outside is like a bold truth speaker. We've done a

0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.159
<v Speaker 1>few events together, that's my sense. But whoa like this

0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.280
<v Speaker 1>story and what just struck me as like a humility

0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:44.119
<v Speaker 1>and a willingness to speak about your brokenness, talk about

0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:45.600
<v Speaker 1>that season and what happened.

0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was that was at a pastor's conference in Ohio,

0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Salem web networkers, and I was a keynote speaker, and

0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, before before God uses the man greatly, he

0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.320
<v Speaker 2>often hurts him deeply. Aw Towser would say. So it's

0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.240
<v Speaker 2>been a process of I don't know how much open

0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.600
<v Speaker 2>up with, but in my twenties walking away from God.

0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, it costs a lot and a lot of pain.

0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:11.639
<v Speaker 2>And then finally when the prodigal son came home and

0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:14.679
<v Speaker 2>just the tears and the fullness of the spirit, you know,

0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:16.920
<v Speaker 2>it was it was incredible. And then when the work

0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.320
<v Speaker 2>comes alive, you know, the Bible talks about knowledge puffs up,

0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.760
<v Speaker 2>so you know, five years into it, I'm quote Spurgeon

0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:28.520
<v Speaker 2>and the Puritans and Tulip and and all these things,

0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.720
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just, you know, I'm just grudom Systemacteology I

0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.320
<v Speaker 2>devoured in June July August one summer and Hodge's System

0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Acteology and lectures to my students Spurgeon and Lloyd Joan.

0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Just like, man, I'm just man, I'm just telling people off,

0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.560
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just putting my people, you know, just like

0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.199
<v Speaker 2>kind of like here's what you gotta do. And my

0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.280
<v Speaker 2>mom finally came to me. She says, hey, nobody wants

0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.600
<v Speaker 2>to be around you. By the way, by then I

0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:53.600
<v Speaker 2>am twenty nine.

0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:57.639
<v Speaker 1>Twenty nine, thirty fired up theologically truth teller.

0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.439
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, but then five years later, so thirty thirty four,

0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:01.200
<v Speaker 2>thirty five.

0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.120
<v Speaker 1>So you're thirty four. It was your mom, of all

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.400
<v Speaker 1>people that came to you, Okay, paint that picture what happen.

0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and she said, uh, Shane, nobody wants to be

0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.320
<v Speaker 2>around you anymore. And I said, well, they're just convicted, right,

0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.320
<v Speaker 2>because you know, alcoholism or this, and they're just convicted.

0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:16.480
<v Speaker 2>They don't like what I have to say. It's like, no,

0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:18.560
<v Speaker 2>it's not what you say, it's it's how you say it.

0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:22.080
<v Speaker 2>You're And so that that Phariseeism had to be broken

0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.240
<v Speaker 2>out of me. And it's a process and many many,

0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure listening to this will will need to spend

0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.320
<v Speaker 2>some time with the Lord to get broken before him

0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:33.959
<v Speaker 2>because they're bold, but they're arrogant, and that's you know,

0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 2>that's that's you gotta have boldness, but you've got to

0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:40.080
<v Speaker 2>like Whitfield wouldn't preach without about hell without tears in

0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.359
<v Speaker 2>his eyes, you know, and having So that that's what

0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:44.560
<v Speaker 2>happened at that Ohio event. It was just just that

0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:47.240
<v Speaker 2>breaking process. And there are other times I shared with you.

0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:52.480
<v Speaker 2>I am twenty seventeen. Maybe I had a young girl

0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:54.560
<v Speaker 2>come in sixteen seventeen. She said, you just made me

0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>feel so bad. Today I'm struggling the same sex attraction.

0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.159
<v Speaker 2>And I preach, because I preach, here's the difficult of

0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:01.879
<v Speaker 2>the person, right, and you want to help them and

0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.800
<v Speaker 2>share God, but you the agendas killing me. Right. It's

0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:06.800
<v Speaker 2>like the schools like how.

0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Do you how do you balance that?

0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:10.439
<v Speaker 2>How do you love the one? But call out the agenda?

0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:12.480
<v Speaker 2>And so I cried with her and I learned a

0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:16.119
<v Speaker 2>valuable lesson that day. I've had other you know, just

0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:20.280
<v Speaker 2>that breaking process where because when you're strong and bold,

0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:24.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, you'll steamroll people if you're not careful. And

0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.359
<v Speaker 2>so it's just a series of God just continuing to

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:29.960
<v Speaker 2>break and break, and it's going to be a process

0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 2>till the day I die. But and so I think,

0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.320
<v Speaker 2>and actually the more I broke, the more He used me,

0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:39.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, So so opportunities would open, God would would

0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.760
<v Speaker 2>open more doors, and it was just it was it

0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:44.880
<v Speaker 2>was incredible. So that's kind of my framework of where

0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:45.480
<v Speaker 2>I come from.

0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:47.040
<v Speaker 1>So I want to pro I want to probe it

0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:48.640
<v Speaker 1>out a little bit, and I don't want to frame

0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:52.920
<v Speaker 1>from people like boldness can turn into arrogance very easily.

0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:57.159
<v Speaker 1>Meekness can turn into cowardice. Yeah, So the key is

0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:00.800
<v Speaker 1>how we balance the two of these without and maybe again,

0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:04.159
<v Speaker 1>I think because of our wiring or our experience, some

0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:06.840
<v Speaker 1>of us are naturally grace givers. Some of us are

0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.800
<v Speaker 1>naturally truthtelligent. I think some of that is just wired

0:24:09.840 --> 0:24:13.840
<v Speaker 1>into our DNA. Yeah, it's not going to change, but

0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 1>take us like, paint that picture a little bit more.

0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 1>Your mom comes to you, you're about thirty four, how

0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.480
<v Speaker 1>you responded, and then kind of the steps of working

0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:25.359
<v Speaker 1>through that brokenness, because there's probably a lot of people

0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:28.320
<v Speaker 1>watching this that I do want to be challenged a

0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:31.120
<v Speaker 1>little bit to maybe think, you know what, I need

0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:33.320
<v Speaker 1>to do some of this similar work in my own

0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:35.560
<v Speaker 1>life and for the record, not just for them, for

0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:38.840
<v Speaker 1>me too, write I need to keep working do this well.

0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:41.359
<v Speaker 2>I think I shared this in one of my books

0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:47.080
<v Speaker 2>and articles and different things. Another point after this time,

0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:49.360
<v Speaker 2>I think my wife down purpose but I don't think

0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:51.719
<v Speaker 2>we even had kids yet, just married. She left her

0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:54.399
<v Speaker 2>journal open, you know, and it said, I married a

0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:58.359
<v Speaker 2>man who is you know, heart domineering or controlling in this.

0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:00.399
<v Speaker 2>You know, I can't do much about it. I wouldn't

0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:03.240
<v Speaker 2>want to have, you know, affect the kids. I'm like, what,

0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:06.160
<v Speaker 2>I took it a drive. I was so angry and upset,

0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:08.520
<v Speaker 2>but what I was doing. I was like, no, you

0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:10.439
<v Speaker 2>can't start a makeup business, or you can't do this.

0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:12.680
<v Speaker 2>We're saving money, We're saving So it wasn't controlling it

0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:14.760
<v Speaker 2>psych a It was just like, no, we're not going

0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:16.879
<v Speaker 2>to spend money doing that. We're not, you know, just

0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:20.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of not respecting the wife's thoughts that you show

0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:23.760
<v Speaker 2>become one. And so we talked it through and that

0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:27.399
<v Speaker 2>really got me to another spot of brokenness as well.

0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:30.199
<v Speaker 2>And then I mentioned actually this Sunday that we we

0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:32.520
<v Speaker 2>our church began to visit hospital homes. Do you know

0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:36.160
<v Speaker 2>what those are? Their hospitals inside neighborhoods where people will

0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:38.520
<v Speaker 2>investors will buy a house and then they'll turn it

0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:41.320
<v Speaker 2>into four bedroom you know, and they get they get

0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:44.560
<v Speaker 2>income and they put patients there with nurses. So our

0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:46.399
<v Speaker 2>church was given like five of these to go and

0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:49.760
<v Speaker 2>minister too. And the stuff I saw there, I would

0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:52.400
<v Speaker 2>leave just crying, you know, I remember one suicide fell,

0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:55.119
<v Speaker 2>suicide attempt, half of her skulls missing. She's blind and

0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:58.040
<v Speaker 2>she's depressed and suicidal. I'm there to minister to her.

0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:00.760
<v Speaker 2>She can't see, but I'm crying my tears on the

0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:02.520
<v Speaker 2>floor and I'm praying for her about when she was

0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:04.439
<v Speaker 2>abused as a four year old. And just and I

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:06.399
<v Speaker 2>go to another guy's a paraplegic, and these things that

0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:09.439
<v Speaker 2>are just breaking and breaking. But God, that's how he

0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:12.320
<v Speaker 2>keeps your heart tender and pliable because you can have

0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:14.679
<v Speaker 2>you can be straight as a gun barrel theologically, but

0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:19.120
<v Speaker 2>just as empty, you know, dead inside. Uh, just arrogant

0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:22.240
<v Speaker 2>and we see that that Bible thumping in your face,

0:26:22.640 --> 0:26:24.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, certain and just that they're just you can

0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:27.680
<v Speaker 2>tell those people there's just too much arrogance. They don't

0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:30.960
<v Speaker 2>there's not enough. And again that's that's something I'm working

0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:32.800
<v Speaker 2>on till the day I die. So don't look at

0:26:32.800 --> 0:26:35.440
<v Speaker 2>me and go, oh, that's of course, that's a great example.

0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Now I struggle with it often, you know, but so yeah,

0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:43.119
<v Speaker 2>my mom's thing, my wife's journal, just other things that

0:26:43.280 --> 0:26:46.800
<v Speaker 2>just God keeps breaking and breaking and uh, and it

0:26:47.000 --> 0:26:49.639
<v Speaker 2>just gets to a point where and now worship, you know,

0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:52.360
<v Speaker 2>during worship, you know, just praying, preparing for that message

0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:57.280
<v Speaker 2>you you heard. Actually what broke me there is before

0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:01.480
<v Speaker 2>they told this lady she became a Christian because of

0:27:01.600 --> 0:27:06.040
<v Speaker 2>the Samaritans purse those shoe boxes. Oh yeah, And so

0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:10.200
<v Speaker 2>she's talking about how they were delivered to her and

0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:13.680
<v Speaker 2>I ran or Iraq or something like that and became believers.

0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:16.919
<v Speaker 2>Her father was actually threatened for his, like her life,

0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:19.199
<v Speaker 2>like we're going to kill you and your family, and

0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:21.600
<v Speaker 2>like just she only had like okay, you got five minutes,

0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:24.160
<v Speaker 2>you got six minutes, right, And and I'm naxt I'm

0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:27.280
<v Speaker 2>thinking that's that's the keynote speaker. She needed to be

0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:31.359
<v Speaker 2>the keynote speaker. God help. And I just went up

0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:34.240
<v Speaker 2>there already already kind of just in tears because like

0:27:34.720 --> 0:27:36.959
<v Speaker 2>we can't rush her through this, like this is, this

0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:40.560
<v Speaker 2>is so important. This is and Pastor Shane our guest speaker,

0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:42.600
<v Speaker 2>and like like those things just break you and you

0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:44.639
<v Speaker 2>have to be you have to not think so highly

0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:47.120
<v Speaker 2>of yourself and you have to be broken before God

0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:50.000
<v Speaker 2>and through that brokenness, you know, the more when the

0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:52.080
<v Speaker 2>more we the more we do that, the lower we

0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:55.119
<v Speaker 2>go the more he'll elevate too. And of course we

0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:58.159
<v Speaker 2>get into my background dyslexia, graduate high school at the

0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:01.760
<v Speaker 2>one point eight, re reading and learn new disabilities. Came

0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:06.240
<v Speaker 2>from a hard working construction family, was destined to be nothing, really,

0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:09.080
<v Speaker 2>and then once I committed to myself to the Lord

0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:12.920
<v Speaker 2>and that everything just shifted. You know.

0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:16.199
<v Speaker 1>I went to school here in ninety four to ninety

0:28:16.240 --> 0:28:19.520
<v Speaker 1>eight at Biola and had a number of different friends,

0:28:19.560 --> 0:28:22.879
<v Speaker 1>but one friend in particular who was in some ways

0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:26.040
<v Speaker 1>my perception the way you're describing yourself when you were younger.

0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:28.720
<v Speaker 1>He was a truth teller. He would go out and

0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:32.399
<v Speaker 1>do evangelism all the time, stood up in chapel a

0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:36.040
<v Speaker 1>few times and called out a speaker and left. And

0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:39.720
<v Speaker 1>let's just say we ended on not great terms. Yeah,

0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:43.320
<v Speaker 1>maybe I shouldn't say this, but he's He's the only

0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:48.360
<v Speaker 1>person I was inches away from just punching and trying

0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:49.960
<v Speaker 1>to knock him out. I was so upset. I'm not

0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:52.479
<v Speaker 1>proud of that. And we, you know, we were in

0:28:52.520 --> 0:28:55.240
<v Speaker 1>touch a little bit all the time, but mostly lost touch.

0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:58.400
<v Speaker 1>He left, went to another university, and it was shortly

0:28:58.440 --> 0:29:02.000
<v Speaker 1>after the death of Charlie Kirr that he sent me

0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:05.880
<v Speaker 1>an email and he apologized for the way that he

0:29:05.920 --> 0:29:08.320
<v Speaker 1>acted here. And I'm not going to pretend that I

0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:10.880
<v Speaker 1>did everything right. That's not the point here, but I

0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:13.440
<v Speaker 1>got that and I was like, first off, I didn't

0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:18.680
<v Speaker 1>expect that. Second, it was so moving that somebody three

0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:21.680
<v Speaker 1>decades later is like, you know what, God convicted my

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:25.600
<v Speaker 1>heart and I just see a difference in his character

0:29:26.040 --> 0:29:27.800
<v Speaker 1>and he's coming out here soon. I'm heading to where

0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:29.400
<v Speaker 1>he lives and we're gonna like hang out, and it's

0:29:29.400 --> 0:29:32.240
<v Speaker 1>like literally just like I'm really looking forward to seeing

0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:35.680
<v Speaker 1>him because of this, and just an example of somebody

0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:37.719
<v Speaker 1>that in some ways it seems to kind of mirror

0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:41.200
<v Speaker 1>your story a little bit. What would you say to

0:29:41.280 --> 0:29:43.680
<v Speaker 1>that person? Because you and I have talked about individuals.

0:29:43.680 --> 0:29:45.600
<v Speaker 1>We don't need to name names at all, but when

0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:50.240
<v Speaker 1>you see people maybe on social media, YouTube, pastors, conferences,

0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:54.760
<v Speaker 1>in conversation wherever, and you kind of see yourself in

0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:58.600
<v Speaker 1>somebody who's younger and going, you know what, I think

0:29:58.640 --> 0:30:00.480
<v Speaker 1>you need to be humbled. You know, you can fill

0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:03.200
<v Speaker 1>in the blank. What would you say to yourself twenty

0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:03.760
<v Speaker 1>years ago?

0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:06.280
<v Speaker 2>First, my mind is going to I wonder why he

0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:09.120
<v Speaker 2>called him out, like is it something to call the personality?

0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:09.600
<v Speaker 2>You know what?

0:30:10.000 --> 0:30:13.120
<v Speaker 1>I will actually tell you he was right about it.

0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:14.920
<v Speaker 2>He was right.

0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:17.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, so that's a fair question. He stood up called

0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:19.840
<v Speaker 1>a guy a heretic, and this guy's completely left his

0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:23.400
<v Speaker 1>faith and has become a humanist. So he saw stuff

0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:26.600
<v Speaker 1>that I didn't see. So there was you know, he

0:30:26.720 --> 0:30:29.120
<v Speaker 1>was right about certain things. The timing I don't know

0:30:29.160 --> 0:30:31.320
<v Speaker 1>the answer to that. But to answer your question, I

0:30:31.360 --> 0:30:33.320
<v Speaker 1>was like, well, he was right on that one.

0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:35.880
<v Speaker 2>That sounds like I mean I would I've thought about

0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:39.440
<v Speaker 2>that before. You know, when do you call people out?

0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:41.400
<v Speaker 2>And when do you not? You know, when you say

0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:43.360
<v Speaker 2>But what was the question? I forgot again?

0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:45.680
<v Speaker 1>So the question was what you would say to your

0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:48.200
<v Speaker 1>younger self? Oh my god, by the way, before you

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:51.160
<v Speaker 1>answer that, I think the line this person said was

0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:55.040
<v Speaker 1>something effective. You think you'll be saved without shedding some

0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:55.920
<v Speaker 1>of your own blood?

0:30:56.680 --> 0:30:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah?

0:30:57.880 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 1>And he just called it out. And in my mind

0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:03.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm still at that now, I like, see it crystal clear,

0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:05.200
<v Speaker 1>but that day, what does he mean? And trying to

0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:07.400
<v Speaker 1>figure it out. He just called it out, and I

0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:10.200
<v Speaker 1>think he was right that he's preaching a false gospel.

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:11.840
<v Speaker 1>But my question for you is what would you say

0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:15.080
<v Speaker 1>to yourself, my younger or somebody twenty years ago.

0:31:15.800 --> 0:31:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Boy, you know what, I actually write about it and

0:31:18.160 --> 0:31:19.960
<v Speaker 2>preach it in sermons. So that's how I try to

0:31:20.000 --> 0:31:21.720
<v Speaker 2>get it out out of out there. And I do

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 2>come to younger pastors and leaders. The problem with pride

0:31:25.920 --> 0:31:30.760
<v Speaker 2>is you don't see it. And you can tell people

0:31:30.920 --> 0:31:33.800
<v Speaker 2>certain things hopefully it'll stick, but really life has got

0:31:33.840 --> 0:31:37.560
<v Speaker 2>to break them. God's got to break them. So you

0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:39.080
<v Speaker 2>can say and they're like, oh yeah, I God, I'll

0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:41.560
<v Speaker 2>be different. You know I'm not. That's what can happen

0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:44.080
<v Speaker 2>to me. I don't remember if you remember Steve Farrar's

0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:45.840
<v Speaker 2>book Finishing Strong.

0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:45.760
<v Speaker 1>I do.

0:31:47.200 --> 0:31:49.720
<v Speaker 2>I'll never forget. He interviewed or somebody did two hundred

0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:53.320
<v Speaker 2>and eighty of the top Christian men who fell in ministry,

0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:55.560
<v Speaker 2>and at the top of the list was that will

0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:58.480
<v Speaker 2>never happen to me. That will never happen to me.

0:32:00.200 --> 0:32:01.920
<v Speaker 2>And see they don't want to and other people I

0:32:01.960 --> 0:32:03.520
<v Speaker 2>don't want to, you know. But back in the eighty

0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:06.360
<v Speaker 2>some of these big ministries that fell, like David Wilkerson

0:32:06.400 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 2>went to some of these people or other people, and

0:32:08.320 --> 0:32:10.200
<v Speaker 2>they don't want to hear it. They don't want to,

0:32:10.640 --> 0:32:13.960
<v Speaker 2>so I would. I would probably pray for the person

0:32:13.960 --> 0:32:15.800
<v Speaker 2>for God to wake them up, and I would share, Hey,

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:17.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're sensing some and usually that want to

0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:20.280
<v Speaker 2>be challenged, so they'll push back. Oh no, I'm just

0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:22.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm just convicting. You know, that's a guy. That's a

0:32:22.280 --> 0:32:24.240
<v Speaker 2>message God gave me. And I'm just I'm just a

0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:27.120
<v Speaker 2>straight shooter. I've heard that before. I'm just a straight shooter.

0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:32.400
<v Speaker 2>You know. No, you're arrogant. You're arrogant because you can tell.

0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:35.400
<v Speaker 2>You can tell when somebody's just feisty. And but then

0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:38.560
<v Speaker 2>you have that that bold prophetic voice too that we

0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:41.840
<v Speaker 2>see sometimes on Instagram. There's that he's actually exploding right

0:32:41.880 --> 0:32:46.880
<v Speaker 2>now that the guy in Georgia, black guy incredible. You know,

0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:50.040
<v Speaker 2>I sense truth and love and other people, but you

0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:54.200
<v Speaker 2>can sense that just that arrogance, wanting likes, wanting more followers,

0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:57.200
<v Speaker 2>wanting more views. And so I would try to say

0:32:57.240 --> 0:32:59.959
<v Speaker 2>something to my younger self, but my younger self wouldn't.

0:33:00.400 --> 0:33:02.320
<v Speaker 1>You're not even sure the person would would hear it.

0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 1>That's totally that's a fair point. Yeah, yeah, I've had

0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:07.120
<v Speaker 1>conversations with people have gone both ways. I've seen people

0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:10.640
<v Speaker 1>on it, and I've said, really kindly in relationship, I

0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:13.640
<v Speaker 1>think you're head in the direction it's going to be destructive.

0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:16.520
<v Speaker 1>And just know when you get there, I love you

0:33:16.560 --> 0:33:17.560
<v Speaker 1>and I'm here for you.

0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:17.840
<v Speaker 2>Amen.

0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:20.200
<v Speaker 1>That's a good And I've said to people like this,

0:33:20.960 --> 0:33:23.880
<v Speaker 1>you're arrogant and you need to change and you need

0:33:23.920 --> 0:33:27.080
<v Speaker 1>to repent, and neither worked in the moment now that

0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:29.760
<v Speaker 1>I figure about it, Yeah, And I don't know. I mean,

0:33:29.800 --> 0:33:32.120
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's just a matter of, like you said, following

0:33:32.160 --> 0:33:35.600
<v Speaker 1>your conviction before the Lord, hope your full spirit pray

0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:36.440
<v Speaker 1>for that person.

0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:39.320
<v Speaker 2>And and I should add it's not like I wouldn't

0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:43.200
<v Speaker 2>say anything. Sure, I'm just not confident it's going to fair.

0:33:43.280 --> 0:33:46.560
<v Speaker 2>That's fair, and believe it. I mean there's times I

0:33:46.560 --> 0:33:48.840
<v Speaker 2>can't tell you how many times I'll get an email

0:33:48.880 --> 0:33:50.680
<v Speaker 2>a year or two later and say, Hey, just want

0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:52.440
<v Speaker 2>to let you know you're right, thank you for challenging me.

0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:54.160
<v Speaker 2>I really thought about it. Most people aren't going to

0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:57.840
<v Speaker 2>respond well initially because it takes humility to respond well.

0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:00.720
<v Speaker 2>And if they're prideful, they're not going to respond well.

0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:03.480
<v Speaker 2>So it's kind of like, you know, they're like I

0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:05.000
<v Speaker 2>can say Oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I

0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:07.200
<v Speaker 2>need to work on that because we all need to

0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:10.640
<v Speaker 2>work on something, you know. I mean, if people like

0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:13.680
<v Speaker 2>we see in the media, social media, that all these

0:34:13.680 --> 0:34:16.799
<v Speaker 2>people are accusing people that they should say, you know,

0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:18.200
<v Speaker 2>I do need to work on some of that. Thank

0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:19.839
<v Speaker 2>you for bringing it up and move forward. But there's

0:34:20.040 --> 0:34:23.160
<v Speaker 2>pride won't let you do that. It's guarding. It's self preservation.

0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:26.000
<v Speaker 2>That's what pride is. That's what legalism is. It's self

0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:31.200
<v Speaker 2>preservation rules versus wisdom of following God's rules. Right, you

0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:32.960
<v Speaker 2>want to you want to follow God's rules. You want

0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:34.719
<v Speaker 2>to you want to build that relationship. And I don't

0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.800
<v Speaker 2>consider them rules or guardrails through the canyons of life.

0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:41.759
<v Speaker 1>Really, how much do you think about long term with people?

0:34:41.760 --> 0:34:44.120
<v Speaker 1>Because I think about my students. And I had a

0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:48.320
<v Speaker 1>student who really was in my class and became an atheist,

0:34:48.360 --> 0:34:49.960
<v Speaker 1>and we had coffee a couple of times. It was

0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:51.480
<v Speaker 1>really good and it was just clear to me he

0:34:51.560 --> 0:34:55.600
<v Speaker 1>has made up his mind, not open. And I just

0:34:55.719 --> 0:34:57.600
<v Speaker 1>graciously at the end, I said, you know, you went

0:34:57.640 --> 0:34:59.680
<v Speaker 1>down this road without me being a part of the

0:34:59.719 --> 0:35:03.239
<v Speaker 1>conver station, became an atheist. Did it alone? If you

0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:07.400
<v Speaker 1>ever just open the door up and are considering God again,

0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:10.240
<v Speaker 1>will you shake my hand, look me in the eyes,

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:13.239
<v Speaker 1>and promise me that you'll at least invite me into

0:35:13.320 --> 0:35:16.120
<v Speaker 1>the conversation. Shook my hand and said, yes, I haven't

0:35:16.160 --> 0:35:18.720
<v Speaker 1>heard from him yet. You know, he's twenty some years

0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:22.000
<v Speaker 1>behind me. But I think about playing the long term

0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:24.440
<v Speaker 1>with people. But then the voice in the back of

0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 1>my mind sometimes is like, but you know what, they

0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:28.839
<v Speaker 1>could get hit by a car tonight. And maybe that's

0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:31.799
<v Speaker 1>the evangelist in me true that I go back to,

0:35:32.080 --> 0:35:34.200
<v Speaker 1>and I don't know how to. I just don't always

0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:36.040
<v Speaker 1>know how to balance that. And maybe it is like

0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:39.040
<v Speaker 1>you said, we're back to just like before the Lord,

0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:43.399
<v Speaker 1>just speak truth with a heart of that person as

0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:45.880
<v Speaker 1>best as I can. And maybe I didn't do it perfectly,

0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:48.200
<v Speaker 1>but that's where grace comes in, and I can just

0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:50.120
<v Speaker 1>trust God's sobeimntying that person's life.

0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:51.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, well, you know what, you just made me

0:35:52.000 --> 0:35:54.880
<v Speaker 2>think of something I've I've not a good example of

0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:56.799
<v Speaker 2>this in the past, because you know what, you say

0:35:56.840 --> 0:36:00.919
<v Speaker 2>something lovingly confront you want to you want to follow

0:36:01.000 --> 0:36:03.120
<v Speaker 2>up a couple of weeks later, a month later and

0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:06.080
<v Speaker 2>you keep pressing where you should just left it, and

0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:08.960
<v Speaker 2>I actually push people farther away, you know, like what

0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:12.799
<v Speaker 2>you had me thinking, but now you're upsetting me and like, oh,

0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:15.480
<v Speaker 2>I like with kids that are rebellion, right, I mean,

0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:17.920
<v Speaker 2>your kids know where you stand. You just love them.

0:36:18.000 --> 0:36:20.040
<v Speaker 2>You don't you don't allow certain things under your roof,

0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:23.160
<v Speaker 2>but they you know, they need that grace. And I

0:36:23.200 --> 0:36:26.680
<v Speaker 2>think I've seen so many kids walk away, yes from

0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:29.520
<v Speaker 2>Luke war mccarnal Holmes, but also from the modern day

0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Pharisee homes where their dad rules at home like a

0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:35.040
<v Speaker 2>rod of iron and it's rules and they don't see

0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:37.600
<v Speaker 2>the brokenness and gentleness and love and grace of Christ.

0:36:37.719 --> 0:36:40.640
<v Speaker 2>And you that's actually I think it was. I think

0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:45.240
<v Speaker 2>it was your dad again. Oh my goodness, he said, uh,

0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:47.760
<v Speaker 2>he said. One of the most common questions he gets,

0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:52.239
<v Speaker 2>this is like thirty years ago, from young adults that

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:54.040
<v Speaker 2>he travels the country. This is one of the number

0:36:54.080 --> 0:36:56.000
<v Speaker 2>one questions he gets from young adults is how can

0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:57.720
<v Speaker 2>I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ

0:36:58.320 --> 0:37:03.360
<v Speaker 2>my parents have? Wow, I remember reading that. I highlight

0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:05.759
<v Speaker 2>it and I just how can I live? And their

0:37:05.800 --> 0:37:08.000
<v Speaker 2>number one question all the young adults. Is how can

0:37:08.040 --> 0:37:09.680
<v Speaker 2>I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ

0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:13.000
<v Speaker 2>my parents out? I mean that if that doesn't bring

0:37:13.000 --> 0:37:17.799
<v Speaker 2>you to tears, you know that that broke. And that's

0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:19.920
<v Speaker 2>how I believe our kids are, at least our kids

0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:22.320
<v Speaker 2>so far doing well because we show them that brokeness

0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:25.200
<v Speaker 2>and that humility. I could have handled that better, but

0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:27.640
<v Speaker 2>we stand strong on certain things. But they see that grace,

0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:30.520
<v Speaker 2>They see that that's powerful because when it breaks you,

0:37:30.560 --> 0:37:34.520
<v Speaker 2>it breaks them. But that arrogance, they'll push back on

0:37:34.560 --> 0:37:36.040
<v Speaker 2>that legalism.

0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:38.719
<v Speaker 1>So you're pastor and you're dealing with a lot of

0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:41.440
<v Speaker 1>families and individuals, And you've talked about families who leave

0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:45.920
<v Speaker 1>a lukewarm home, families who leave a legalistic home. My experience,

0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:49.320
<v Speaker 1>haven't done some writing and thinking a lot of conversations

0:37:49.360 --> 0:37:55.640
<v Speaker 1>on deconstruction and deconversion. Yeah, it's far more those who

0:37:55.719 --> 0:37:59.839
<v Speaker 1>have come from the legalistic home and are reacting against it. Now,

0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:02.880
<v Speaker 1>it might be that those who leave lukewarm home just

0:38:03.239 --> 0:38:05.600
<v Speaker 1>end up they're not upset about it, and then I'll

0:38:05.600 --> 0:38:07.680
<v Speaker 1>talk about it. So I don't have a number on

0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:11.239
<v Speaker 1>which one is more significant statistically, but those are the

0:38:11.360 --> 0:38:15.160
<v Speaker 1>stories that I hear more do you hear those kinds

0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:18.200
<v Speaker 1>of stories far more? And how would you counsel a

0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:22.120
<v Speaker 1>parent when you know that this element is present and

0:38:22.160 --> 0:38:25.480
<v Speaker 1>their kids are questioning these kinds of you know, they're

0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:28.200
<v Speaker 1>questioning their faith, they're concerned about them. But you see

0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:31.680
<v Speaker 1>that legalism present in the family. So I guess it's

0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.759
<v Speaker 1>a two part question. Do you see more reacting in

0:38:34.800 --> 0:38:38.840
<v Speaker 1>the way that I describe from that fundamentalist, legalistic, harsh family,

0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:41.759
<v Speaker 1>and how do you navigate that when it comes to you?

0:38:41.960 --> 0:38:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, here's a good test for your listeners. The legalist

0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:48.000
<v Speaker 2>is not going to like what you just said. And

0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:50.040
<v Speaker 2>if you don't like what I said, it's because you

0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:54.040
<v Speaker 2>need to hear what I said basically. But let me qualify.

0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Neither home is good, okay, neither home rightly, lukewarm, carnal,

0:38:57.960 --> 0:39:02.480
<v Speaker 2>any type of lukewarm would be Yeah, Concerts that maybe

0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:06.840
<v Speaker 2>aren't God honoring, movies that aren't God honoring Netflix, Okay.

0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 1>So is it fair to say these other priority these

0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:12.399
<v Speaker 1>things matter at the spense of church and living out

0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:15.160
<v Speaker 1>your faith as opposed to like, you can be a

0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:18.760
<v Speaker 1>vibrant Christian but engage certain things and culture wisely?

0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Is that for Surekaya? Leave that, you leave that up

0:39:21.680 --> 0:39:22.400
<v Speaker 2>to the individual.

0:39:22.560 --> 0:39:25.360
<v Speaker 1>So your point was when I cut you off, is

0:39:25.400 --> 0:39:29.160
<v Speaker 1>that that lukewarm family is not good. Neither is the

0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:30.719
<v Speaker 1>legalistic family is not good.

0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Right, I'm not I'm not promoting. Just because we're harping

0:39:33.520 --> 0:39:37.959
<v Speaker 2>on the legalistic one doesn't mean the lukewarm carnal whatever

0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:40.040
<v Speaker 2>you want to call that. Yeah, but here's what happens

0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:42.480
<v Speaker 2>in the lukewarm carnal type homes where they're not on

0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:45.400
<v Speaker 2>fire for the lord. It's pretty clear that they're not

0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:48.440
<v Speaker 2>on fire for the lord. So the kids are not man,

0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:50.040
<v Speaker 2>my mom, dad, aren't living it. They know they're not

0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:51.960
<v Speaker 2>living it. You know, you're not really sending a mixed

0:39:51.960 --> 0:39:54.600
<v Speaker 2>signal other unless you're trying to live it out and

0:39:54.680 --> 0:39:56.719
<v Speaker 2>you're being false and fake and a hypocrite. You know,

0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.319
<v Speaker 2>that's what hypocrite was, right. They show up the mask

0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:02.720
<v Speaker 2>and thing on Sunday, somebody else on Monday. But kids

0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:05.520
<v Speaker 2>with carnality and lukewarmness, it's dangerous, but you know, they

0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:08.360
<v Speaker 2>see it and they see in themselves and their parents.

0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:12.960
<v Speaker 2>But with legalism and what we call you know, I

0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:16.680
<v Speaker 2>don't know what term you used. Fundamentalist, Yeah, I mean

0:40:16.719 --> 0:40:18.960
<v Speaker 2>that's that term comes from nineteen oh four nineteen oh

0:40:18.960 --> 0:40:21.200
<v Speaker 2>five when our A Torri wrote his Fundamentals of the Faith.

0:40:21.200 --> 0:40:22.560
<v Speaker 2>So it's it's okay term, but what we.

0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:25.439
<v Speaker 1>Taught here by the way, they have a Tory conference. Yeah,

0:40:25.560 --> 0:40:26.240
<v Speaker 1>use a violin.

0:40:26.600 --> 0:40:30.560
<v Speaker 2>That's that's pretty cool. So so that word isn't neutral.

0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:33.799
<v Speaker 2>The problem is when it's and I've just seen it.

0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:36.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the kids just not only do they totally rebellious,

0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:41.520
<v Speaker 2>they're just hurt, and they're the deconstructionism for people. I'm

0:40:41.560 --> 0:40:44.840
<v Speaker 2>sure people know who follow your channel, but it's deconstructing

0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:48.120
<v Speaker 2>their faith, right, working it back the opposite way. Well,

0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:50.520
<v Speaker 2>maybe if this and the worst thing you can do

0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:55.920
<v Speaker 2>is show God's truth without his love principles to follow

0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.319
<v Speaker 2>without the grace that you need to get back up

0:40:58.320 --> 0:41:00.960
<v Speaker 2>and keep fighting. So that's what it does. It Actually

0:41:00.960 --> 0:41:05.480
<v Speaker 2>I legalistic. A home sets a standard that nobody can hit.

0:41:07.160 --> 0:41:09.839
<v Speaker 2>But you're acting like you're hitting it because you're the

0:41:10.280 --> 0:41:11.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, not in mind, we don't go to the movies,

0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:13.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, we don't do this. We have a certain

0:41:13.600 --> 0:41:16.040
<v Speaker 2>translation of the Bible we use and and women have

0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:18.520
<v Speaker 2>to wear dresses and head coverings. Now get into the whole,

0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:20.920
<v Speaker 2>which which is fine if you want, but it's the

0:41:21.000 --> 0:41:24.080
<v Speaker 2>attitude behind it. See, it's not necessarily the rules, it's

0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:28.400
<v Speaker 2>the attitude behind it. And the kids. It pushes them

0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:32.000
<v Speaker 2>away because I need grace. I can't measure up all

0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:34.480
<v Speaker 2>these rules and and locked up in your room for

0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:37.560
<v Speaker 2>half a day and this, and you just there's no

0:41:37.800 --> 0:41:41.360
<v Speaker 2>there's no breathing room to grow in your faith, because

0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:44.960
<v Speaker 2>faith is following God's law, following is his commandments, but

0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:48.359
<v Speaker 2>also having the grace and the mercy to get back

0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:50.719
<v Speaker 2>up and to keep fighting and to have people in

0:41:50.760 --> 0:41:52.520
<v Speaker 2>your corner. Hey, you can keep doing this. This is

0:41:52.560 --> 0:41:55.040
<v Speaker 2>not allowed. You cannot come home at midnight again. But

0:41:55.360 --> 0:41:57.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, and you and you you know you have

0:41:57.760 --> 0:42:01.480
<v Speaker 2>the grace with the truth, and so that's legalistic. Homes

0:42:01.680 --> 0:42:09.080
<v Speaker 2>just don't provide the incubator of genuine faith because they

0:42:09.120 --> 0:42:13.240
<v Speaker 2>constantly feel they will never measure up, they're never good enough.

0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:16.800
<v Speaker 2>They can never please mom, never please dad, and they

0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:19.120
<v Speaker 2>just live like that and it's kind of sad.

0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:22.120
<v Speaker 1>So I'm going to ask you a somewhat difficult question.

0:42:22.200 --> 0:42:24.480
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it won't be hard for you, but I know

0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:27.719
<v Speaker 1>you can take it. This is probably fifteen years ago.

0:42:27.880 --> 0:42:30.839
<v Speaker 1>And it's not like a theological question or apologetic question.

0:42:31.080 --> 0:42:35.040
<v Speaker 1>It's a scenario because I get emails daily from people

0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:37.920
<v Speaker 1>like parents and families. How do I navigate this with

0:42:38.040 --> 0:42:40.520
<v Speaker 1>my kid? How do I navigate this in the church?

0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:42.920
<v Speaker 1>And it's always like I want them to have truth,

0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:46.840
<v Speaker 1>but I value the relationship. Where do I draw the line?

0:42:47.400 --> 0:42:49.359
<v Speaker 1>And so I'm just curious how you play this one

0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:53.080
<v Speaker 1>out again. Probably fifteen maybe twenty years ago, when there

0:42:53.120 --> 0:42:57.280
<v Speaker 1>was so much conversation about same sex marriage, a pastor

0:42:57.440 --> 0:43:01.080
<v Speaker 1>shared with me that at his church they were having

0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:04.480
<v Speaker 1>trying to remember some of the details, They're having kind

0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:11.640
<v Speaker 1>of a marriage day or kind of retreat celebration, and

0:43:11.680 --> 0:43:15.320
<v Speaker 1>they had couple stand who had been married the longest,

0:43:16.239 --> 0:43:22.120
<v Speaker 1>and the last couple standing was a same sex couple now,

0:43:22.239 --> 0:43:23.960
<v Speaker 1>and they were going to get some kind of award

0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:27.719
<v Speaker 1>from the church and recognition for this in front of

0:43:27.760 --> 0:43:31.600
<v Speaker 1>the church. Now they obviously they hadn't been legally married,

0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.759
<v Speaker 1>because this just goes back to twenty fifteen. But that's

0:43:34.800 --> 0:43:38.120
<v Speaker 1>the kind of situation I sit there. I'm like, oh, man,

0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:41.320
<v Speaker 1>if I'm sitting in that situation, I want to speak truth,

0:43:41.960 --> 0:43:45.200
<v Speaker 1>but I also don't want to shame this couple in

0:43:45.239 --> 0:43:48.759
<v Speaker 1>a way that's unnecessary to me in my mind. That

0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:52.879
<v Speaker 1>is almost so often like highlighted this tension between how

0:43:52.880 --> 0:43:55.960
<v Speaker 1>do you just show grace and kindness to people and

0:43:56.000 --> 0:43:59.080
<v Speaker 1>how do you balance truth? What goes through your mind

0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:01.640
<v Speaker 1>as a pastor if you're sitting there and this unexpected

0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:05.080
<v Speaker 1>couple stands when you're trying to celebrate God's sign for marriage,

0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:07.480
<v Speaker 1>and if you're like, I need to think about this

0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:09.560
<v Speaker 1>because I've been thinking about it for like fifteen years,

0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:11.279
<v Speaker 1>I'm totally fine with that.

0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, no, I mean it's I think I answered pretty

0:44:14.360 --> 0:44:19.400
<v Speaker 2>pretty quickly because what I do is anytime we measure

0:44:20.560 --> 0:44:23.239
<v Speaker 2>grace or truth, right, I look at what is the

0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:26.919
<v Speaker 2>greater harm. So my silence is going to be more

0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:30.600
<v Speaker 2>harm to my congregation. So yes, I might have fend.

0:44:30.719 --> 0:44:32.759
<v Speaker 2>So I probably say, hey, guys, let's talk about this

0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:35.160
<v Speaker 2>one after church, you know. But also I don't know

0:44:35.160 --> 0:44:39.960
<v Speaker 2>if they would be all are welcome right at church,

0:44:40.000 --> 0:44:42.879
<v Speaker 2>but we don't affirm so because of my preaching and

0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:47.360
<v Speaker 2>preaching them, they probably for openly same sex couple to

0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:50.000
<v Speaker 2>be coming to church. Maybe they're new, brand new, I

0:44:50.000 --> 0:44:52.000
<v Speaker 2>don't know, it could be. But if they're probably not

0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:55.359
<v Speaker 2>going to come and stay in sin, if that makes sense,

0:44:55.360 --> 0:44:57.680
<v Speaker 2>because it's just the convicting of the message, not targeting them,

0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:00.319
<v Speaker 2>but just the conviction of God's word. So for me me,

0:45:00.800 --> 0:45:04.080
<v Speaker 2>I would because of the congregation, my role as a leader,

0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:06.520
<v Speaker 2>my kids might be there, my wife. I probably say, okay, guys,

0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:08.919
<v Speaker 2>and let's talk about that later. I'm gonna I'm gonna

0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:11.920
<v Speaker 2>do a sermon at some point on God's design for marriage.

0:45:11.960 --> 0:45:14.120
<v Speaker 2>But I'm looking for those who've been married according to

0:45:14.160 --> 0:45:16.759
<v Speaker 2>God's design. So yes, it might shame them, but they

0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:20.799
<v Speaker 2>actually created this environment. I didn't create it. I'm responding

0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:24.440
<v Speaker 2>to it. So to me, that silence would have spoke

0:45:24.680 --> 0:45:28.160
<v Speaker 2>volumes and it would have actually done more damage to

0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:31.120
<v Speaker 2>my testimony and to the members of my church. I

0:45:31.920 --> 0:45:32.200
<v Speaker 2>love that.

0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:34.600
<v Speaker 1>I think that's really whise. And you email me something

0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:38.560
<v Speaker 1>about how sometimes silence can actually cause harm and this

0:45:38.600 --> 0:45:41.480
<v Speaker 1>is example of doing so. So it sounds smack when

0:45:41.480 --> 0:45:44.160
<v Speaker 1>it came to the pronoun issue earlier. If somebody is

0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:46.719
<v Speaker 1>that call me, he him, you don't feel the need

0:45:46.800 --> 0:45:51.279
<v Speaker 1>to go out of your way and correct that person immediately.

0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:53.520
<v Speaker 1>But I'm not going to go along with this right

0:45:53.560 --> 0:45:56.520
<v Speaker 1>and I'm gonna look for the more opportune time to

0:45:56.640 --> 0:46:00.880
<v Speaker 1>address that wisely. In this circumstance, I'm goten away to

0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:05.000
<v Speaker 1>shame this couple, but this is public. I've already preached

0:46:05.080 --> 0:46:08.600
<v Speaker 1>on where our church stands. I'm gonna shift to the

0:46:08.640 --> 0:46:10.440
<v Speaker 1>right one, move on, and then fall up with that

0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:13.520
<v Speaker 1>couple as lovingly and graciously as I can.

0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:16.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So for me, I weigh what is the what's

0:46:16.239 --> 0:46:19.799
<v Speaker 2>the greater damage? That's smart, you know, And then you know,

0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:21.839
<v Speaker 2>now it depends on the person. Though. If I'm at

0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:24.279
<v Speaker 2>Starbucks and I've got my my sixteen year old and

0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:26.759
<v Speaker 2>my eighteen year old, and I've got somebody saying, like,

0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:30.000
<v Speaker 2>you know to my daughter, no, I'm hear him, and

0:46:30.040 --> 0:46:33.640
<v Speaker 2>i say, hey, hey, we're not lying here. You're not

0:46:33.760 --> 0:46:37.880
<v Speaker 2>hear him. It's a linguistically pronoun like, I don't understand

0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:40.839
<v Speaker 2>this whole thing because it's to me, it's lying. It's

0:46:40.840 --> 0:46:43.640
<v Speaker 2>not being honest. However, it depends on the situation. Most

0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:45.520
<v Speaker 2>of the time it's just like, okay, thanks Chris, nice

0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:47.160
<v Speaker 2>to meet You're But if it's going to be a

0:46:47.160 --> 0:46:51.080
<v Speaker 2>constant thing, and depending what the environment is where it's at,

0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:53.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if it's at church. I'm in the prayer room.

0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:55.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's a very different, you.

0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Know, And I say, hey, what's your name, Chris? Can

0:46:57.760 --> 0:46:59.319
<v Speaker 2>I pray with you? No it's not, it's he him

0:46:59.320 --> 0:47:03.279
<v Speaker 2>And I say, oh no, no, I love you, but can't.

0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about he him word. And I use that

0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:07.680
<v Speaker 2>as opportunity. But I'm not gonna call them. I'm not

0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:11.920
<v Speaker 2>gonna honor what I think is dishonoring to God. You know.

0:47:11.920 --> 0:47:14.640
<v Speaker 2>Again with the wighing, the silence speaks volumes, and that's

0:47:14.640 --> 0:47:16.759
<v Speaker 2>what I think. Many what I consider I don't know

0:47:16.760 --> 0:47:18.719
<v Speaker 2>if you want to use the term. It's been used

0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:21.960
<v Speaker 2>the wrong way sometimes woke or liberal or progressive. And

0:47:23.080 --> 0:47:26.719
<v Speaker 2>I have friends and that consider, you know, they're more

0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:30.080
<v Speaker 2>kind of that leaning. But there it's almost an arrogance

0:47:30.080 --> 0:47:32.640
<v Speaker 2>in their silence. And I talked to him, why don't

0:47:32.640 --> 0:47:34.920
<v Speaker 2>you ever I don't mention sin much because that's God's

0:47:35.000 --> 0:47:36.920
<v Speaker 2>job to convict. I'm like, no, it's really yours from

0:47:36.960 --> 0:47:39.880
<v Speaker 2>the pulpit too. You're a watchman, you're a preacher of

0:47:39.920 --> 0:47:43.399
<v Speaker 2>God's truth. It's not He's gonna have you as well

0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:46.400
<v Speaker 2>convict them. And so there's this thought that it's not

0:47:46.480 --> 0:47:48.320
<v Speaker 2>my job to convict, it's my job to love. Know,

0:47:48.360 --> 0:47:50.600
<v Speaker 2>it's actually your job to do both. That's why Paul

0:47:50.600 --> 0:47:52.759
<v Speaker 2>said be ready in and out season. The time will

0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:54.840
<v Speaker 2>come when they're not going to put up with sound doctrine,

0:47:55.239 --> 0:47:57.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, exhort, encourage, long suffering, genterally. I mean, so

0:47:58.040 --> 0:48:01.080
<v Speaker 2>we have we have the scriptural man to preach all

0:48:01.120 --> 0:48:04.000
<v Speaker 2>of God's and I think the most powerful preaching of

0:48:04.040 --> 0:48:07.759
<v Speaker 2>God's word comes from the truth being preached in love.

0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:10.479
<v Speaker 2>If you if you go, if you go any side,

0:48:10.480 --> 0:48:12.080
<v Speaker 2>if you're just, if you're all truth, and I'm meant,

0:48:12.280 --> 0:48:14.000
<v Speaker 2>if you're if you're a, if you're gay in here,

0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:15.960
<v Speaker 2>if you're you know you're and you're just beating the

0:48:15.960 --> 0:48:20.240
<v Speaker 2>pulpit and you're just putting down people, it's not gonna

0:48:20.480 --> 0:48:22.279
<v Speaker 2>it's just you just hurt a lot of people. But

0:48:22.400 --> 0:48:24.360
<v Speaker 2>if you're like, you know what, I'm not gonna not

0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:26.040
<v Speaker 2>gonna go there. I'm not gonna I mean, just look

0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:28.120
<v Speaker 2>at all the political hot buttons or whatever you want

0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:31.160
<v Speaker 2>to call them. They're they're biblical, they're biblical hot buttons.

0:48:31.800 --> 0:48:34.839
<v Speaker 2>And so if I just going to remain silent, it's

0:48:34.920 --> 0:48:38.040
<v Speaker 2>really it's really because I've struggled with this. It's cowardliness,

0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:40.600
<v Speaker 2>isn't it. I don't want to deal with this. I

0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:43.319
<v Speaker 2>don't want upset anybody. It's cowardliness. And that's why I

0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:46.760
<v Speaker 2>said earlier. The more time I spend with God the Boulder,

0:48:46.840 --> 0:48:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I become okay.

0:48:47.760 --> 0:48:49.480
<v Speaker 1>So hold that I want to. I'll explore that. But

0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:52.760
<v Speaker 1>your point about the sphere, I think is really really

0:48:52.880 --> 0:48:54.640
<v Speaker 1>wise and helpful. I want to make sure we don't

0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.160
<v Speaker 1>miss this. I was just I teach a class here

0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:03.399
<v Speaker 1>at at BIOL called Gospel Kingdom Cold, and it's apologetics, evangelism,

0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:08.440
<v Speaker 1>spiritual conversations, and the thorniest cultural issues people can talk about.

0:49:08.520 --> 0:49:11.120
<v Speaker 1>So we talk about race, we talk about transgender we

0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:15.360
<v Speaker 1>talk about poverty, we talk about artificial intelligence. And the

0:49:15.400 --> 0:49:18.040
<v Speaker 1>board down like directed it for Thattius Williams and I

0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:20.920
<v Speaker 1>to write this course. And we were just talking about

0:49:20.960 --> 0:49:23.560
<v Speaker 1>pronouns this week, and I said, before we just answer this,

0:49:24.160 --> 0:49:27.240
<v Speaker 1>maybe there's a differen between a Christian and a non Christian,

0:49:27.400 --> 0:49:32.880
<v Speaker 1>an adult and a child. There's so many different settings

0:49:32.880 --> 0:49:35.080
<v Speaker 1>that are taking place here. And you're right, like in

0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Starbucks when somebody's dropping off your coffee really fast, and

0:49:37.880 --> 0:49:42.440
<v Speaker 1>it's like abrupt versus somebody who's in the church asking

0:49:42.640 --> 0:49:46.640
<v Speaker 1>for prayer. Yeah, even that nuance is makes a big

0:49:46.680 --> 0:49:50.440
<v Speaker 1>difference when and how we speak truth. So I just

0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:52.080
<v Speaker 1>want I want to make sure because I want to

0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:54.640
<v Speaker 1>ruminate on that even more myself. I think there's a

0:49:54.680 --> 0:49:58.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of wisdom in that. Let's go back to scripture.

0:49:58.320 --> 0:50:00.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, the wisdom came from a lot of failure too,

0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:01.120
<v Speaker 2>so that's where.

0:50:01.280 --> 0:50:04.359
<v Speaker 1>Well, most wisdom does, doesn't it. I think most wisdom does.

0:50:04.440 --> 0:50:06.799
<v Speaker 1>I think. I think that's right. And the wise people

0:50:06.840 --> 0:50:10.080
<v Speaker 1>learn from other people's failures. Yes, that's true, that's for sure.

0:50:10.920 --> 0:50:14.440
<v Speaker 1>So we're talking about scripture making us more bold. Now

0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:16.480
<v Speaker 1>I have my thoughts about this, but I want to

0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:18.080
<v Speaker 1>hear from you first what you mean by that and

0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:19.120
<v Speaker 1>how that works.

0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:25.840
<v Speaker 2>The boulder I become. Yeah, well, because I think by nature,

0:50:26.000 --> 0:50:29.640
<v Speaker 2>and what I mean by nature is you know, if

0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:31.200
<v Speaker 2>you jump in a river, you're just going to go

0:50:31.200 --> 0:50:34.200
<v Speaker 2>to the flow, You're not gonna so by nature, most

0:50:34.239 --> 0:50:37.600
<v Speaker 2>people are not confrontational, right, I just don't want to

0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:40.120
<v Speaker 2>give a good sermon. I want people to like me.

0:50:41.360 --> 0:50:44.759
<v Speaker 2>I want them to come back next Sunday, you know,

0:50:44.920 --> 0:50:47.759
<v Speaker 2>And sadly, a lot of a lot of pastors. I've

0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:51.239
<v Speaker 2>got pastor friends that are subject to deacon boards, and

0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:53.360
<v Speaker 2>if they start really speaking the truth, they're going to

0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:57.600
<v Speaker 2>lose some of their audience and the financial budgets. And

0:50:57.640 --> 0:51:00.439
<v Speaker 2>so what I mean by that is the those things

0:51:00.440 --> 0:51:03.480
<v Speaker 2>are just put aside. Like the more time I spend

0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:07.600
<v Speaker 2>in God's word, the bolder I become for cultural issues.

0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:11.920
<v Speaker 1>And pastors pulpit like I want to make sure we're

0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:14.520
<v Speaker 1>connecting everybody, but keep going how it relates to you.

0:51:14.640 --> 0:51:19.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so these things that are that are human nature,

0:51:19.280 --> 0:51:22.239
<v Speaker 2>whatever you want to call them, wired by default to

0:51:22.680 --> 0:51:27.120
<v Speaker 2>be quiet, cowardly, timid. You know, that's kind of our

0:51:27.480 --> 0:51:29.799
<v Speaker 2>Most people want to be liked by people, right, Jesus said,

0:51:29.800 --> 0:51:31.680
<v Speaker 2>we'll be to you when all men speak well of you,

0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:33.680
<v Speaker 2>or if you're trying to please men, you won't be

0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:35.640
<v Speaker 2>a pleaser of God. And so when it comes to

0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:38.920
<v Speaker 2>what we're talking about, speaking the truth and loved cultural issues,

0:51:39.719 --> 0:51:44.960
<v Speaker 2>the more time I spend with God, the boulder I

0:51:45.200 --> 0:51:48.200
<v Speaker 2>become on these issues that most of us are inclined

0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:51.480
<v Speaker 2>to be silent about. That makes sense, it does, Yeah,

0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:53.759
<v Speaker 2>So I think it is two reasons for me.

0:51:53.840 --> 0:51:56.479
<v Speaker 1>The more I study scripture. The more I'm confident about

0:51:56.480 --> 0:51:59.640
<v Speaker 1>what scripture says, and so I have a certain confidence

0:51:59.680 --> 0:52:03.279
<v Speaker 1>of life. You know what, I can take criticism from

0:52:03.360 --> 0:52:07.280
<v Speaker 1>people if I know that I'm standing on a position

0:52:07.400 --> 0:52:11.719
<v Speaker 1>that is the most reasonable, likely biblical position. It just

0:52:11.719 --> 0:52:15.040
<v Speaker 1>gives me confidence to say, fine, I've got the Lord

0:52:15.040 --> 0:52:17.800
<v Speaker 1>at my back and I've thought about this. So personally,

0:52:17.840 --> 0:52:19.680
<v Speaker 1>I find that that happens a lot the more I

0:52:19.719 --> 0:52:22.520
<v Speaker 1>study an issue and have conviction about it and get

0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:25.640
<v Speaker 1>into the scriptures. But the second is I just see

0:52:25.680 --> 0:52:28.040
<v Speaker 1>over and over again in the scriptures how much it

0:52:28.080 --> 0:52:31.560
<v Speaker 1>says to be bold. So I've been studying Deuteronomy over

0:52:31.640 --> 0:52:34.719
<v Speaker 1>and over again in the morning, and it's like a

0:52:34.920 --> 0:52:37.960
<v Speaker 1>drum beat in that book. Now, of course, this is

0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:41.359
<v Speaker 1>Moses's final speech before they enter the Promised Land, so

0:52:41.440 --> 0:52:44.080
<v Speaker 1>he's got to tell them be bold, do not be afraid.

0:52:44.080 --> 0:52:45.880
<v Speaker 1>I should do a quick search how many times, but

0:52:45.920 --> 0:52:50.239
<v Speaker 1>it's probably dozens of times. So I read that, I'm like, wow,

0:52:50.600 --> 0:52:54.400
<v Speaker 1>be bold, be bold, don't be afraid, speak truth. And

0:52:54.440 --> 0:52:57.759
<v Speaker 1>so just being in scripture reminds me of that. The

0:52:57.800 --> 0:52:59.919
<v Speaker 1>other thing that jumped out is I was before dude,

0:53:00.360 --> 0:53:04.480
<v Speaker 1>I was studying Luke and when Luke, I'm sorry. When

0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Jesus stands up in the gospel route Luke and reads

0:53:07.920 --> 0:53:11.120
<v Speaker 1>from Isaiah sixty one, I believe it is, and he's like,

0:53:11.200 --> 0:53:14.760
<v Speaker 1>these things have been fulfilled in your presence. It says

0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:19.359
<v Speaker 1>twice about how everybody was praising him and everybody loved him,

0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:22.000
<v Speaker 1>but by the end of that chapter they want to

0:53:22.080 --> 0:53:26.440
<v Speaker 1>throw him off a cliff. At Nazareth, I'm like, wow,

0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:30.120
<v Speaker 1>they shifted from loving him and caring for him to

0:53:30.200 --> 0:53:33.759
<v Speaker 1>wanting to throw him off the cliff. I've signed up

0:53:33.840 --> 0:53:38.600
<v Speaker 1>to follow this guy. What audience am I playing for?

0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:43.440
<v Speaker 1>Am I playing for being pleased by men? If so,

0:53:44.040 --> 0:53:46.239
<v Speaker 1>my life is like a roller coaster. I'm at the

0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:50.239
<v Speaker 1>whims of what people think about me. But if I'm

0:53:50.280 --> 0:53:54.160
<v Speaker 1>trying to please God and be on his side, it's

0:53:54.320 --> 0:53:58.799
<v Speaker 1>actually freeing for me and gives me more boldness just

0:53:58.880 --> 0:54:02.160
<v Speaker 1>by being in scripture in that fast That's more my

0:54:02.280 --> 0:54:02.880
<v Speaker 1>experience with it.

0:54:03.160 --> 0:54:06.879
<v Speaker 2>And and you'll read because people have a misconception of Jesus, right,

0:54:06.920 --> 0:54:11.000
<v Speaker 2>turn the other cheek, this nice guy. But man, you

0:54:11.080 --> 0:54:14.840
<v Speaker 2>brew to vipers. Can you imagine looking at religious leaders

0:54:14.840 --> 0:54:17.120
<v Speaker 2>and saying you're you're you look great on the outside

0:54:17.200 --> 0:54:20.360
<v Speaker 2>like whitewashed tunbs, but you're dead on the inside. Woe

0:54:20.400 --> 0:54:22.759
<v Speaker 2>be to you. Well, did Isaiah speak of you? You

0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:24.520
<v Speaker 2>draw nye to me with your lips, with your heart,

0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:27.080
<v Speaker 2>and he just, I mean, he was bold when need

0:54:27.080 --> 0:54:30.839
<v Speaker 2>to be bold. And that's the hard part. It's fine

0:54:31.040 --> 0:54:34.120
<v Speaker 2>because also what happens is I call it reaction, and

0:54:34.320 --> 0:54:36.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, somebody's doing something, I want to react, And

0:54:36.520 --> 0:54:40.240
<v Speaker 2>that's arrogance, right because you're you're guarding or you're defending,

0:54:40.280 --> 0:54:41.640
<v Speaker 2>and oh yeah, well let me tell you this, and

0:54:41.680 --> 0:54:44.319
<v Speaker 2>you want to text back. And so it's that it's

0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:48.520
<v Speaker 2>that time of not reacting but responding and waiting on God.

0:54:48.560 --> 0:54:50.879
<v Speaker 2>And for most some people they know they just need

0:54:50.920 --> 0:54:53.160
<v Speaker 2>to just put on the brakes. For other people, they

0:54:53.160 --> 0:54:55.160
<v Speaker 2>need to step on the gas and start being a

0:54:55.200 --> 0:54:57.279
<v Speaker 2>little bit more bold, you know. And that's one of

0:54:57.280 --> 0:54:59.720
<v Speaker 2>the things we talked about earlier with the pulpits in America.

0:55:00.160 --> 0:55:03.120
<v Speaker 2>You know how much that has shifted from from years ago.

0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:05.200
<v Speaker 1>Now hold that we might come back to the pulpit,

0:55:05.239 --> 0:55:08.080
<v Speaker 1>but so why wouldn't we be bold? In the opposite

0:55:08.120 --> 0:55:11.799
<v Speaker 1>of boldness either could be cowardice or or fear right.

0:55:11.960 --> 0:55:13.560
<v Speaker 2>You don't want to deal with it right now, I

0:55:13.600 --> 0:55:15.759
<v Speaker 2>mean right like, I don't want to say anything. I

0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:17.799
<v Speaker 2>don't want to deal with you know, let me just

0:55:18.120 --> 0:55:20.520
<v Speaker 2>it's it's easy, easy to do for sure.

0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:24.640
<v Speaker 1>I also think, like I asked myself, how much am

0:55:24.640 --> 0:55:28.040
<v Speaker 1>I motivated by fear in my life? And it's so

0:55:28.200 --> 0:55:31.839
<v Speaker 1>easy to succumb to that absolutely, which prevents somebody from

0:55:31.880 --> 0:55:34.920
<v Speaker 1>being bold because it could be fear for a reputation,

0:55:35.120 --> 0:55:38.520
<v Speaker 1>fear for a job, fear for whatever the kind of

0:55:38.520 --> 0:55:42.680
<v Speaker 1>issue is. But the biblical solution to fear is in

0:55:42.800 --> 0:55:49.400
<v Speaker 1>First John four eighteen. Perfect love cast out fear. And

0:55:49.440 --> 0:55:51.719
<v Speaker 1>when I think about this, you know, one of the

0:55:51.800 --> 0:55:54.319
<v Speaker 1>leading Just yesterday I was talking to students here by

0:55:54.360 --> 0:55:56.600
<v Speaker 1>All about this one of the leading fears. It's like

0:55:57.200 --> 0:56:00.400
<v Speaker 1>death and then it's like public speaking.

0:56:00.680 --> 0:56:01.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that's true.

0:56:01.560 --> 0:56:04.439
<v Speaker 1>It's like always top three or top five, And it's

0:56:04.480 --> 0:56:07.920
<v Speaker 1>like why because so many people are looking at me

0:56:08.239 --> 0:56:10.440
<v Speaker 1>and I don't want to be embarrassed or shamed in

0:56:10.440 --> 0:56:14.799
<v Speaker 1>front of people. So that's where fear comes from. Fear

0:56:14.880 --> 0:56:22.640
<v Speaker 1>is selfish, Love is self lists. Fear is self focused.

0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Love is other focused. So in some ways, when I

0:56:29.040 --> 0:56:32.799
<v Speaker 1>look at the church today, when we get overly defensive,

0:56:32.920 --> 0:56:36.920
<v Speaker 1>and we're overly angry. I sometimes think we're acting out

0:56:37.000 --> 0:56:41.520
<v Speaker 1>of fear, and some of those concerns are not illegitimate,

0:56:41.640 --> 0:56:46.000
<v Speaker 1>whatever those concerns may be. But our reaction is looking

0:56:46.080 --> 0:56:50.719
<v Speaker 1>at ourselves rather than asking what's the loving response to

0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:54.319
<v Speaker 1>somebody else. So I've had different people call me out

0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:56.319
<v Speaker 1>in different ways, and I always think, you know what

0:56:56.920 --> 0:57:01.000
<v Speaker 1>you're thinking about yourself, rather than if I really want

0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:04.440
<v Speaker 1>to persuade Sean to change or anybody change, this is

0:57:04.480 --> 0:57:07.479
<v Speaker 1>it about me? How do I speak in a way

0:57:07.520 --> 0:57:11.600
<v Speaker 1>that this is best received? And so like, like I

0:57:11.640 --> 0:57:15.120
<v Speaker 1>was a calm major here, and communication very simply put,

0:57:15.160 --> 0:57:17.840
<v Speaker 1>it would be like a sender and it would be

0:57:18.480 --> 0:57:22.160
<v Speaker 1>a message, and it would be a receiver, right, and

0:57:22.200 --> 0:57:26.640
<v Speaker 1>the message is the communication. Well, most people have their

0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:29.720
<v Speaker 1>idea and the message they want to send. This is

0:57:29.800 --> 0:57:33.320
<v Speaker 1>the truth I want to convey, but they're not thinking

0:57:33.360 --> 0:57:37.680
<v Speaker 1>about the receiver and whether or not the receiver will

0:57:37.760 --> 0:57:42.640
<v Speaker 1>at least hear them. And the question is what makes

0:57:42.680 --> 0:57:47.560
<v Speaker 1>somebody more likely to hear them. Sometimes it's somebody getting

0:57:47.600 --> 0:57:50.200
<v Speaker 1>in their face and yelling at them and correct like

0:57:50.720 --> 0:57:54.040
<v Speaker 1>sometimes that's the time. But that seems to me to

0:57:54.120 --> 0:57:57.520
<v Speaker 1>be more the exception of the time, and there's often

0:57:57.560 --> 0:58:00.520
<v Speaker 1>more of a relationship behind that that makes it happened.

0:58:01.160 --> 0:58:02.800
<v Speaker 1>I try to ask myself, if I have something I

0:58:02.840 --> 0:58:04.920
<v Speaker 1>think is true and I want somebody to hear it,

0:58:05.440 --> 0:58:10.640
<v Speaker 1>how do I speak it in love? Because A that's

0:58:10.680 --> 0:58:14.640
<v Speaker 1>actually loving somebody, whether they respond or not, I'm called

0:58:14.640 --> 0:58:19.280
<v Speaker 1>to love somebody. But b it sure seems walls come

0:58:19.360 --> 0:58:22.760
<v Speaker 1>down and they're more likely to hear it if I

0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:26.840
<v Speaker 1>speak the truth in love. So I just I'm going

0:58:26.880 --> 0:58:29.360
<v Speaker 1>to look at the church, I look at pastors today,

0:58:29.400 --> 0:58:32.120
<v Speaker 1>I look at myself and I ask myself how much

0:58:32.160 --> 0:58:36.400
<v Speaker 1>am I speaking out of fear, which is selfish versus

0:58:36.440 --> 0:58:39.439
<v Speaker 1>saying am I speaking out of love? And that's why

0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:41.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean last point in this I'm rambling a little bit,

0:58:41.280 --> 0:58:44.040
<v Speaker 1>but when people get nervous for speaking, part of my

0:58:44.120 --> 0:58:47.640
<v Speaker 1>response is stop thinking about yourself. Just ask yourself, how

0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:48.560
<v Speaker 1>can I love my.

0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:50.240
<v Speaker 2>Audience about opinions?

0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:52.080
<v Speaker 1>Because we're worried about opinions? And I go, well, how

0:58:52.080 --> 0:58:54.080
<v Speaker 1>can I tell stories that help them? How can I

0:58:54.120 --> 0:58:56.360
<v Speaker 1>make a PowerPoint that helps them? How can I actually

0:58:56.400 --> 0:59:00.400
<v Speaker 1>help them? Then the focus shifts from me to others,

0:59:01.080 --> 0:59:03.480
<v Speaker 1>and I think if we Christians would just stop focusing

0:59:03.600 --> 0:59:06.720
<v Speaker 1>on ourselves and our fear inwardly and just say, how

0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:11.400
<v Speaker 1>will people most likely hear the true man or Christ.

0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:14.920
<v Speaker 1>I think we'd communicate very differently, and.

0:59:14.880 --> 0:59:16.760
<v Speaker 2>This one might be helpful. That was a great point

0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:18.680
<v Speaker 2>and it made me think of this for your listeners.

0:59:18.720 --> 0:59:21.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, you'll have probably a pastor's listening, lay leaders,

0:59:22.200 --> 0:59:29.560
<v Speaker 2>Christians of art. How I preach to a mass audience

0:59:29.640 --> 0:59:31.439
<v Speaker 2>or whatever is a lot different than how I talk

0:59:31.480 --> 0:59:35.920
<v Speaker 2>to an individual. Amen to that, so there's different dynamics people.

0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:37.840
<v Speaker 2>I just need to be like, no, no, I'm don't

0:59:37.840 --> 0:59:40.280
<v Speaker 2>be like I'm preaching, don't talk to an individual that way.

0:59:40.760 --> 0:59:43.360
<v Speaker 2>When it's a mass, you have the advantage of not

0:59:43.440 --> 0:59:45.400
<v Speaker 2>knowing what God's doing in their hearts, and people don't

0:59:45.400 --> 0:59:49.040
<v Speaker 2>take it personally because there's a group of people. But

0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:51.840
<v Speaker 2>when I'm talking to an individual, it's going to be

0:59:52.000 --> 0:59:54.240
<v Speaker 2>obviously a little bit different. However, like you said earlier,

0:59:54.280 --> 0:59:56.640
<v Speaker 2>there are times to really shoot people straight, when they're

0:59:56.720 --> 0:59:58.680
<v Speaker 2>destroying their family, when they need to wake up. There's

0:59:58.720 --> 1:00:01.280
<v Speaker 2>other times where you need to come up alongside and

1:00:01.480 --> 1:00:05.480
<v Speaker 2>just listen to them speak the truth and love. But also,

1:00:05.800 --> 1:00:07.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, yeah, I would say airing on the side

1:00:08.080 --> 1:00:11.640
<v Speaker 2>of grace. But also when I was younger, I did.

1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:15.840
<v Speaker 2>I really was into just I just love like football coaches,

1:00:16.200 --> 1:00:18.960
<v Speaker 2>like good teams. You know, Cowboys, I think it's Tom Laundry,

1:00:19.120 --> 1:00:24.160
<v Speaker 2>laundry writer, and and Green Bay was Vince Lombardi. And

1:00:24.400 --> 1:00:26.400
<v Speaker 2>just studying all these guys, I think I did it.

1:00:26.720 --> 1:00:29.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why I did actually, but I realize

1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:35.240
<v Speaker 2>all these great coaches weren't too nice all the time,

1:00:36.520 --> 1:00:40.320
<v Speaker 2>were they. I mean, most most good coaches basketball down

1:00:40.320 --> 1:00:47.160
<v Speaker 2>here at USC or UCLA basketball coaches, even football, you know,

1:00:47.200 --> 1:00:50.520
<v Speaker 2>they pull out of you. It's inside of you. So

1:00:50.560 --> 1:00:53.160
<v Speaker 2>they're really they're not like, hey, no problem, They're like,

1:00:53.200 --> 1:00:55.600
<v Speaker 2>get back up. You don't do that. And so there

1:00:55.680 --> 1:00:59.320
<v Speaker 2>is a different dynamic that takes place there. So again,

1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:01.160
<v Speaker 2>as a past or what type of past or the

1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:03.680
<v Speaker 2>calling that maybe I have or others habits that that

1:01:03.800 --> 1:01:07.360
<v Speaker 2>coach to really challenge them and to really have them

1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:11.800
<v Speaker 2>dig deep. Also like like Navy Seal podcasts, watching those guys,

1:01:12.200 --> 1:01:15.160
<v Speaker 2>it's not it's uh, it's just how I'm bent. And

1:01:15.200 --> 1:01:17.479
<v Speaker 2>so my point was that there's not a one size

1:01:17.520 --> 1:01:20.520
<v Speaker 2>fits all approach. It really depends on who the person is,

1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:23.480
<v Speaker 2>your relationship with them. What is God wanting you to say?

1:01:23.680 --> 1:01:25.640
<v Speaker 2>Going back to what I said earlier, the most important

1:01:25.640 --> 1:01:28.720
<v Speaker 2>takeaway here, even to a cardinal home, a Lukewarmholm, a

1:01:28.800 --> 1:01:32.240
<v Speaker 2>legalistic home, is to get time with the Lord. Spend

1:01:32.280 --> 1:01:36.280
<v Speaker 2>time with him, open his word, praying, fasting, broken by him.

1:01:36.960 --> 1:01:41.040
<v Speaker 2>Because because the problem we're the problem that many people

1:01:41.040 --> 1:01:43.640
<v Speaker 2>are having because the fruit the spirit is not present,

1:01:43.760 --> 1:01:46.280
<v Speaker 2>is because they're not filled with the spirit. So the

1:01:46.320 --> 1:01:48.560
<v Speaker 2>more filled you are, the more fruit's going to come out.

1:01:49.000 --> 1:01:52.120
<v Speaker 2>That's just that's a biblical truth, right, The love, the joy,

1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:55.680
<v Speaker 2>the peace and contentment, but also the boldness that's all

1:01:55.720 --> 1:01:57.680
<v Speaker 2>going to come out from the from the fullness of

1:01:57.720 --> 1:02:00.360
<v Speaker 2>the spirit. And we're all leaky vessels, deal Mood said,

1:02:00.840 --> 1:02:03.000
<v Speaker 2>So we have to stay underneath the fountain of living

1:02:03.040 --> 1:02:05.800
<v Speaker 2>water every day. That's I hate to keep saying that,

1:02:05.840 --> 1:02:08.320
<v Speaker 2>but that's where all of this. Or should I say

1:02:08.360 --> 1:02:09.919
<v Speaker 2>this to this person? When should I talk to the truth,

1:02:09.960 --> 1:02:11.720
<v Speaker 2>speak the truth and love? What should I confront that

1:02:12.240 --> 1:02:14.400
<v Speaker 2>when you're when you're with the intimacy with the Lord

1:02:14.400 --> 1:02:17.520
<v Speaker 2>in that relationship is going to going to navigate these

1:02:17.560 --> 1:02:18.840
<v Speaker 2>waters much more effectively.

1:02:19.760 --> 1:02:21.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so I'm kind of end with this point. I

1:02:21.640 --> 1:02:24.000
<v Speaker 1>think this is really helpful that you've identified kind of

1:02:24.040 --> 1:02:28.200
<v Speaker 1>your lane, and you're drawn towards coach football, you're drawn

1:02:28.240 --> 1:02:33.160
<v Speaker 1>towards Navy seals, which just fits your personality, your competitive nature,

1:02:33.360 --> 1:02:37.040
<v Speaker 1>your a personality, your drive. But you also recognize that

1:02:37.120 --> 1:02:39.000
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of people that go, you know what

1:02:39.240 --> 1:02:42.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm not the coach, I'm not the pastor coach.

1:02:42.720 --> 1:02:47.360
<v Speaker 1>Maybe I'm the pastor counselor exactly. Maybe I'm the pastor philosopher.

1:02:47.400 --> 1:02:51.560
<v Speaker 1>Maybe I'm the pastor business man. Your message, I guess

1:02:51.560 --> 1:02:54.720
<v Speaker 1>two part question A. How do you balance out not

1:02:54.880 --> 1:02:58.120
<v Speaker 1>just listening to the voices like I would imagine seal

1:02:58.320 --> 1:03:01.760
<v Speaker 1>and football coaches would make you go, yeah, Shane, be tough, Yeah,

1:03:01.800 --> 1:03:04.240
<v Speaker 1>she's speak truth. It's like, wait a minute, I'm filling

1:03:04.280 --> 1:03:07.760
<v Speaker 1>myself with the voices I'm naturally inclined towards. I don't

1:03:07.920 --> 1:03:11.040
<v Speaker 1>want to do that too much. And then what would

1:03:11.080 --> 1:03:13.440
<v Speaker 1>you say to other pastors who are like, yeah, I

1:03:13.480 --> 1:03:15.640
<v Speaker 1>don't want to listen to seals, I don't want to

1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:18.000
<v Speaker 1>play football. That's not me. But I want to be

1:03:18.040 --> 1:03:18.640
<v Speaker 1>a good pastor.

1:03:19.280 --> 1:03:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, that's it. Goes back to your DNA.

1:03:21.520 --> 1:03:23.400
<v Speaker 2>You're wiring how God has called you, and I don't

1:03:23.440 --> 1:03:26.240
<v Speaker 2>listen to those all the time. I balance it off.

1:03:26.480 --> 1:03:28.400
<v Speaker 2>You do balance it out, Oh for sure, I like

1:03:29.480 --> 1:03:31.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, I like the I don't know what a

1:03:31.560 --> 1:03:34.640
<v Speaker 2>good example would be, but softer podcasts, right, just learning,

1:03:34.720 --> 1:03:36.960
<v Speaker 2>growing in your faith and things like that, plus that

1:03:37.040 --> 1:03:39.080
<v Speaker 2>time with the Lord. I've been getting up for twenty

1:03:39.120 --> 1:03:41.360
<v Speaker 2>five years really early, you know, three to three thirty

1:03:41.360 --> 1:03:44.280
<v Speaker 2>in the morning, and so I've got I've got three

1:03:44.280 --> 1:03:48.800
<v Speaker 2>hours from here on out. Usually you know that I'll

1:03:48.800 --> 1:03:52.120
<v Speaker 2>spend worship in the word prayer. It's dark out, nobody's up,

1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:56.960
<v Speaker 2>and that's the time to really get refueled and reinspired

1:03:57.400 --> 1:04:02.120
<v Speaker 2>and back into into into God's Word. And so also

1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:04.920
<v Speaker 2>though I remember you said counseling, as some of my

1:04:05.000 --> 1:04:09.360
<v Speaker 2>pastor friends like they love counseling and they don't like

1:04:09.440 --> 1:04:12.080
<v Speaker 2>preaching or sermon prep. That's like, oh, that's the hardest

1:04:12.080 --> 1:04:15.080
<v Speaker 2>thing for me. I love sermon prep and preaching. It's

1:04:15.120 --> 1:04:16.800
<v Speaker 2>like that that's what fills me up. So you have

1:04:16.840 --> 1:04:19.400
<v Speaker 2>to find out what fills up that tank and what

1:04:19.520 --> 1:04:21.479
<v Speaker 2>drained you. I think I got that from a book

1:04:21.600 --> 1:04:25.919
<v Speaker 2>leading on empty. It's about when pastors get burned out,

1:04:26.760 --> 1:04:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and it said, find what fills you up, and find

1:04:29.200 --> 1:04:31.800
<v Speaker 2>what drains you and try to minimize you know it

1:04:31.880 --> 1:04:33.720
<v Speaker 2>drains you, and focus on what fills you up. So

1:04:34.160 --> 1:04:37.600
<v Speaker 2>trying to find you know, exercise, of course, I mean

1:04:37.680 --> 1:04:39.520
<v Speaker 2>just I think the physical how we take care of

1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:43.840
<v Speaker 2>our body, affects the spiritual. Right. If I'm not disciplined physically,

1:04:44.200 --> 1:04:46.040
<v Speaker 2>if I'm not disciplined physically, I'm not going to be

1:04:46.040 --> 1:04:49.479
<v Speaker 2>disciplined spiritually. So I think finding that balance of taking

1:04:49.480 --> 1:04:52.320
<v Speaker 2>care of my body physically, especially as I get older,

1:04:52.640 --> 1:04:56.720
<v Speaker 2>and then you know, balancing out what you listen to,

1:04:56.760 --> 1:05:01.120
<v Speaker 2>the podcast who influences you? Be very careful social media nowadays?

1:05:01.160 --> 1:05:03.480
<v Speaker 2>You know that, man. I mean some people they get

1:05:03.480 --> 1:05:05.520
<v Speaker 2>caught up in all these conspiracy theories and yeah on

1:05:05.560 --> 1:05:07.160
<v Speaker 2>this and they just get they.

1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:09.520
<v Speaker 1>Just get lots drama of it and drama.

1:05:09.560 --> 1:05:12.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. We were not designed to be hit with all

1:05:12.560 --> 1:05:14.840
<v Speaker 2>this information. And I don't think and.

1:05:14.840 --> 1:05:17.680
<v Speaker 1>I think your point about you know, being filled up

1:05:17.680 --> 1:05:20.280
<v Speaker 1>when you're empty. I only have so much emotional capacity,

1:05:20.680 --> 1:05:22.960
<v Speaker 1>and when I spend it getting ticked on Twitter, I

1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:25.200
<v Speaker 1>have less for my wife and less for my son,

1:05:25.360 --> 1:05:27.240
<v Speaker 1>and it's just I've learned that, like you said, the

1:05:27.320 --> 1:05:29.800
<v Speaker 1>older that I get. So let's kind of let's bring

1:05:29.840 --> 1:05:30.120
<v Speaker 1>this back.

1:05:30.200 --> 1:05:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Let me add this too. Yeah, I want to say

1:05:32.520 --> 1:05:34.880
<v Speaker 2>it earlier, but one of the biggest things that has

1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:36.959
<v Speaker 2>really helped me. Now, let me clarify it because people

1:05:36.960 --> 1:05:39.000
<v Speaker 2>are going to take it wrong, say you're not open

1:05:39.040 --> 1:05:41.480
<v Speaker 2>for feedback, you're not teachable. But I don't really look

1:05:41.520 --> 1:05:43.320
<v Speaker 2>at it. I don't good comments, and I don't look

1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:46.280
<v Speaker 2>at YouTube comments or Facebook. I don't. I mean maybe

1:05:46.360 --> 1:05:51.040
<v Speaker 2>one percent. But I have elders and deacons and a

1:05:51.080 --> 1:05:53.880
<v Speaker 2>core group around me of a lot of people that

1:05:53.960 --> 1:05:56.440
<v Speaker 2>will speak into my life. And so I don't know

1:05:56.480 --> 1:05:59.480
<v Speaker 2>if this person is in Iowa in the basement of

1:05:59.520 --> 1:06:03.160
<v Speaker 2>their mom trying to, you know, go off on me

1:06:03.240 --> 1:06:06.440
<v Speaker 2>because they don't agree with some non essential or this,

1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:08.560
<v Speaker 2>or my attitude or you're prideful? How do you? How

1:06:08.600 --> 1:06:10.760
<v Speaker 2>do you know who I am? So I think we

1:06:10.920 --> 1:06:15.840
<v Speaker 2>put too much into comments and likes and followers. You know,

1:06:15.840 --> 1:06:17.400
<v Speaker 2>we get up. We have to look at Instagram to

1:06:17.480 --> 1:06:20.160
<v Speaker 2>have followers, and even that can affect That's what's affecting

1:06:20.160 --> 1:06:23.600
<v Speaker 2>our teenagers right now in our country, is is this

1:06:23.600 --> 1:06:27.760
<v Speaker 2>this people pleasing and bullying get off social media. Doesn't

1:06:27.760 --> 1:06:30.240
<v Speaker 2>matter what they say, they don't know you. Well, just

1:06:30.600 --> 1:06:32.840
<v Speaker 2>surround yourself by those people who truly know you and

1:06:32.880 --> 1:06:35.400
<v Speaker 2>love you. I won't listen to constructive criticism either, much

1:06:35.400 --> 1:06:37.880
<v Speaker 2>from critical hearts. I want to make sure it's somebody

1:06:37.920 --> 1:06:40.480
<v Speaker 2>who truly loves me, because there's enough criticism coming in

1:06:40.520 --> 1:06:42.840
<v Speaker 2>from those who you know, truly Hey in that sermon,

1:06:43.280 --> 1:06:45.000
<v Speaker 2>had that sermon you kind of you know you really,

1:06:45.400 --> 1:06:48.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, overstep, you know, and so the elders will

1:06:48.720 --> 1:06:50.280
<v Speaker 2>speak truth into my life as well. So we do

1:06:50.280 --> 1:06:52.640
<v Speaker 2>have those people. But I think just that social media

1:06:52.640 --> 1:06:56.520
<v Speaker 2>constantly feeding that, you know, on Mondays, I turn it

1:06:56.560 --> 1:06:58.280
<v Speaker 2>off and it's like I'm looking at my pocket like

1:06:58.440 --> 1:06:59.520
<v Speaker 2>four or five times.

1:06:59.320 --> 1:07:02.520
<v Speaker 1>And then you realize how like why our brains.

1:07:02.120 --> 1:07:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Are so I read.

1:07:05.120 --> 1:07:08.840
<v Speaker 1>I tried to read enough criticism to just say, do

1:07:08.920 --> 1:07:10.640
<v Speaker 1>I need to pivot? It's just something I need to

1:07:10.680 --> 1:07:13.160
<v Speaker 1>learn without spending too much time and energy on it.

1:07:13.640 --> 1:07:16.520
<v Speaker 1>But I can think of a handful of YouTube videos,

1:07:17.080 --> 1:07:20.560
<v Speaker 1>some Twitter posts, emails I've gotten that are a little

1:07:20.560 --> 1:07:23.560
<v Speaker 1>bit more substantive. And I've always in every case when

1:07:23.560 --> 1:07:26.000
<v Speaker 1>I feel like there might be something here, I have

1:07:26.080 --> 1:07:27.800
<v Speaker 1>a board. I'll send it to people on my board.

1:07:28.320 --> 1:07:31.000
<v Speaker 1>I've sent it to my son professors here at Talbot

1:07:31.040 --> 1:07:33.000
<v Speaker 1>and just go. I've said a couple of times I

1:07:33.000 --> 1:07:36.080
<v Speaker 1>don't actually have the emotional energy to watch all of

1:07:36.080 --> 1:07:38.960
<v Speaker 1>this right now. I'm exhausted, But watch it. I only

1:07:39.000 --> 1:07:41.640
<v Speaker 1>tell me if there's anything I really need to learn

1:07:41.760 --> 1:07:44.840
<v Speaker 1>from on this and speak truth to me, and some

1:07:45.000 --> 1:07:48.840
<v Speaker 1>helpful conversations have come out of that. Well, maybe let's

1:07:48.880 --> 1:07:50.760
<v Speaker 1>just kind of sum up some of the key points

1:07:50.760 --> 1:07:52.840
<v Speaker 1>in this conversation. I wish I had taken notes, because

1:07:52.840 --> 1:07:54.720
<v Speaker 1>there's some principle here I want to remember. I'm going

1:07:54.760 --> 1:07:57.680
<v Speaker 1>to go back through this, but it seems so some

1:07:57.720 --> 1:08:02.480
<v Speaker 1>takeaways are. Number One, our boldness and our our energy

1:08:02.560 --> 1:08:05.640
<v Speaker 1>is going to come from being in the word, truth

1:08:05.800 --> 1:08:09.560
<v Speaker 1>and grace aside, be in the word, be filled with

1:08:09.600 --> 1:08:13.880
<v Speaker 1>the spirits. Yes, it's okay to find our own unique wirings.

1:08:13.920 --> 1:08:17.040
<v Speaker 1>Where there's John the Baptist, John the Beloved, and God

1:08:17.040 --> 1:08:20.160
<v Speaker 1>has called us uniquely, we should be comfortable in terms

1:08:20.200 --> 1:08:23.320
<v Speaker 1>of who God has called us Steward Steward Stewart, that

1:08:23.400 --> 1:08:25.519
<v Speaker 1>is a good way to put it. But open to

1:08:25.600 --> 1:08:29.240
<v Speaker 1>always growing and being challenged. Yes, What are some of

1:08:29.280 --> 1:08:32.920
<v Speaker 1>the other key takeaways from this time?

1:08:33.240 --> 1:08:36.120
<v Speaker 2>I think the word well, the word nice, like I remember,

1:08:36.120 --> 1:08:38.679
<v Speaker 2>I looked up it's it means pleasant and agreeable, and

1:08:38.760 --> 1:08:42.439
<v Speaker 2>it's not always biblical. So you know, I want to

1:08:42.479 --> 1:08:47.760
<v Speaker 2>be nice. Okay, that means I guess you'd be. It

1:08:47.760 --> 1:08:49.880
<v Speaker 2>would depend on how you define it, right, But you're

1:08:49.920 --> 1:08:51.840
<v Speaker 2>not always going to be pleasant and agreeable if you

1:08:51.880 --> 1:08:55.040
<v Speaker 2>have to lovingly challenge someone. I mean, so, I think

1:08:55.080 --> 1:08:58.240
<v Speaker 2>the idea is to err on the side of grace

1:08:58.800 --> 1:09:00.760
<v Speaker 2>and to be bold when God calls you to be bold.

1:09:00.800 --> 1:09:04.280
<v Speaker 2>And I think most people know, we know what we

1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:07.360
<v Speaker 2>need to work on, right, Like, I don't need to

1:09:07.400 --> 1:09:10.559
<v Speaker 2>work on being silent. I mean, that's not my that's

1:09:10.560 --> 1:09:15.920
<v Speaker 2>not my that's not my weakness. I need to work

1:09:15.960 --> 1:09:19.160
<v Speaker 2>on not getting the last word in and being lovingly

1:09:19.560 --> 1:09:23.120
<v Speaker 2>more gentle. And just because you, pastors also preach with

1:09:23.160 --> 1:09:26.280
<v Speaker 2>their emotions, you know, I always say I do not

1:09:26.400 --> 1:09:30.160
<v Speaker 2>preach a sixty minute perfect sermon. I guarantee my emotion

1:09:30.320 --> 1:09:34.800
<v Speaker 2>is in there, my motives are in there, my perspectives.

1:09:34.840 --> 1:09:37.280
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes even though we stick with truth all the principles,

1:09:37.600 --> 1:09:40.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, you and manytimes, I like bang, why did

1:09:40.240 --> 1:09:43.320
<v Speaker 2>I go off on somebody like not a name necessarily,

1:09:43.360 --> 1:09:47.280
<v Speaker 2>but just like critics or and and just realizing that

1:09:48.560 --> 1:09:50.680
<v Speaker 2>working on those areas you know you need to work on.

1:09:50.760 --> 1:09:53.080
<v Speaker 2>So some listening are quiet or silent, they don't want

1:09:53.080 --> 1:09:56.400
<v Speaker 2>to say anything, they don't upset. Maybe God's calling them to

1:09:56.200 --> 1:09:58.080
<v Speaker 2>to to be a little bit more bold, maybe sharing

1:09:58.080 --> 1:10:01.240
<v Speaker 2>scripture or lovingly challenging. For other of us, it's it's

1:10:01.560 --> 1:10:04.479
<v Speaker 2>this could be a great call to repentance, to say, God,

1:10:04.920 --> 1:10:08.080
<v Speaker 2>my heart is growing hard and callous. I've look at

1:10:08.080 --> 1:10:12.040
<v Speaker 2>what Jesus said. You have sound doctrine to the church,

1:10:12.439 --> 1:10:14.680
<v Speaker 2>and you help people in this, but you've left your

1:10:14.720 --> 1:10:18.160
<v Speaker 2>first love. I mean that was the model church right

1:10:18.200 --> 1:10:21.240
<v Speaker 2>there and then but they left their first love. And

1:10:21.280 --> 1:10:22.920
<v Speaker 2>so I think it would be a good a good

1:10:22.960 --> 1:10:26.559
<v Speaker 2>call to remind people to repentance. Don't just get if

1:10:26.600 --> 1:10:30.559
<v Speaker 2>something is triggering you in this interview, it's probably because

1:10:30.560 --> 1:10:33.280
<v Speaker 2>you need to hear it. I mean, that's that's how

1:10:33.280 --> 1:10:35.760
<v Speaker 2>it works. I don't like they said that. I don't

1:10:35.800 --> 1:10:38.080
<v Speaker 2>wish I wish or I wish Sean would be more bold. Well,

1:10:38.080 --> 1:10:40.240
<v Speaker 2>it's probably because you need to work on being more

1:10:40.280 --> 1:10:43.400
<v Speaker 2>loving or I wish Shane, it's probably because you need

1:10:43.439 --> 1:10:44.880
<v Speaker 2>to be you, don't You know the people when they

1:10:44.920 --> 1:10:46.519
<v Speaker 2>get it's like when you throw a rock into a

1:10:46.520 --> 1:10:48.680
<v Speaker 2>pile of dogs, you know the one, the one that

1:10:48.760 --> 1:10:51.680
<v Speaker 2>barks is when you hit. And so these types of

1:10:51.720 --> 1:10:54.800
<v Speaker 2>podcasts will will cause people to really think, and I

1:10:54.800 --> 1:10:57.360
<v Speaker 2>would just encourage them to repent and get their heart

1:10:57.439 --> 1:10:58.120
<v Speaker 2>right with the Lord.

1:10:58.439 --> 1:11:00.160
<v Speaker 1>This is really good is one I'm gonna go back

1:11:00.200 --> 1:11:02.479
<v Speaker 1>through and pull out some of the principles and just

1:11:02.680 --> 1:11:05.160
<v Speaker 1>think about a lot. And I think you're landing on

1:11:05.240 --> 1:11:06.760
<v Speaker 1>a point that I believe that we're going to be

1:11:06.800 --> 1:11:10.880
<v Speaker 1>living in this tension of grace and truth relationally with

1:11:10.920 --> 1:11:13.639
<v Speaker 1>people in our family. This is true with people where

1:11:13.680 --> 1:11:16.400
<v Speaker 1>we work, true with people in our church and beyond.

1:11:16.479 --> 1:11:19.040
<v Speaker 1>And if we're not living in that tension a little bit,

1:11:19.439 --> 1:11:21.840
<v Speaker 1>then we're stale and we're not growing. Whether it's more

1:11:21.920 --> 1:11:25.879
<v Speaker 1>truth or whether it's more grace. But that's the formula.

1:11:26.200 --> 1:11:29.800
<v Speaker 2>And let me add before I forget, it's so important

1:11:29.920 --> 1:11:36.160
<v Speaker 2>to be apologetic and keep relationships healthy. Like Sunday, for example,

1:11:36.360 --> 1:11:38.800
<v Speaker 2>a guy I was twelve minutes, I twelve minutes before

1:11:38.840 --> 1:11:40.960
<v Speaker 2>the service, and I'm running late to church right and

1:11:41.000 --> 1:11:43.400
<v Speaker 2>he comes in. I was kind of like, oh, and

1:11:43.439 --> 1:11:44.720
<v Speaker 2>so I went to him say, hey, sorry about that

1:11:44.800 --> 1:11:47.280
<v Speaker 2>was twelve minutes. Oh, no problem. And so you're constantly

1:11:47.360 --> 1:11:50.479
<v Speaker 2>repenting and repairing and like, hey, I came across strong

1:11:50.520 --> 1:11:52.920
<v Speaker 2>and I've apologized to my car. I said, hey, last month,

1:11:52.960 --> 1:11:55.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean I came across really strong. I was upset

1:11:55.120 --> 1:12:00.240
<v Speaker 2>at some things. And that transparency, that meekness, that uh

1:12:00.520 --> 1:12:02.800
<v Speaker 2>that that because meekness is not.

1:12:02.800 --> 1:12:04.360
<v Speaker 1>Weakness, Amen, I agree.

1:12:05.000 --> 1:12:09.280
<v Speaker 2>Weak meekness is strength under control. You have the strength,

1:12:09.280 --> 1:12:13.200
<v Speaker 2>but you're controlling it. That's meekness. Weakness is a complete opposite.

1:12:13.360 --> 1:12:16.880
<v Speaker 2>So apologizing to people. I just apologize to my my

1:12:17.160 --> 1:12:19.760
<v Speaker 2>uh my son a couple of days ago because I

1:12:19.800 --> 1:12:21.160
<v Speaker 2>was on and about, hey, you need to start coming

1:12:21.160 --> 1:12:24.720
<v Speaker 2>to church more. Why and and you know, and it's okay,

1:12:24.760 --> 1:12:26.880
<v Speaker 2>I can see that understand always but not always trying

1:12:26.880 --> 1:12:28.720
<v Speaker 2>to be the right one. You know, you're always the

1:12:28.760 --> 1:12:30.320
<v Speaker 2>right one. You're always you Never you want to listen

1:12:30.360 --> 1:12:32.000
<v Speaker 2>to them. You don't want to hear them having the

1:12:32.080 --> 1:12:35.760
<v Speaker 2>attitude of of of repentance and humility and say okay,

1:12:35.800 --> 1:12:37.479
<v Speaker 2>I could own that we need to work on that.

1:12:37.600 --> 1:12:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Let's you know, I apologize for that that keeps that

1:12:39.960 --> 1:12:43.479
<v Speaker 2>keeps you very tender, and and you'll become more careful

1:12:43.479 --> 1:12:44.479
<v Speaker 2>what you say, because you.

1:12:44.520 --> 1:12:48.639
<v Speaker 1>Know it's not fun to have to know, not at all,

1:12:48.760 --> 1:12:50.360
<v Speaker 1>not at all. And in some ways this brings us

1:12:50.400 --> 1:12:53.839
<v Speaker 1>full circle that we need to speak truth more boldly

1:12:53.920 --> 1:12:57.040
<v Speaker 1>than ever, because it's the truth that sets people free.

1:12:57.240 --> 1:12:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Right.

1:12:57.760 --> 1:12:59.920
<v Speaker 1>But my first question was tied to the death of

1:13:00.120 --> 1:13:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Charlie Kirk. What we need and in some ways I

1:13:03.479 --> 1:13:07.280
<v Speaker 1>just I can't shake it what Erica Kirk said offering

1:13:07.560 --> 1:13:11.639
<v Speaker 1>forgiveness within days. What is eleven days to the man

1:13:12.080 --> 1:13:18.680
<v Speaker 1>who murdered her husband, father of her kids. That's supernatural?

1:13:18.720 --> 1:13:21.160
<v Speaker 1>In my book, it was there's a whole lot of

1:13:21.200 --> 1:13:24.000
<v Speaker 1>people that shocked them and were like some people were

1:13:24.000 --> 1:13:26.880
<v Speaker 1>offended by it. Well, okay, at least you saw the

1:13:27.000 --> 1:13:29.360
<v Speaker 1>power of the Gospel of what that looks like. You

1:13:29.400 --> 1:13:33.400
<v Speaker 1>saw it demonstrated clearly. So it's not either or. I

1:13:33.400 --> 1:13:36.360
<v Speaker 1>think we need to be more gracious and more kind,

1:13:36.479 --> 1:13:41.759
<v Speaker 1>not nice, but kind and me than ever speaking truth boldly.

1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:45.679
<v Speaker 1>And may everybody who's watched this be challenged in one

1:13:45.720 --> 1:13:49.639
<v Speaker 1>fashion or another, because I think that's what Christ wants

1:13:49.680 --> 1:13:50.280
<v Speaker 1>us to do.

1:13:50.280 --> 1:13:52.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, and just to maybe on that point for

1:13:52.320 --> 1:13:56.400
<v Speaker 2>a minute, getting getting the full story on something. Like

1:13:56.800 --> 1:13:58.799
<v Speaker 2>many of us, I've done this before. I just comment

1:13:58.840 --> 1:14:01.200
<v Speaker 2>on what I think I know and you learn later.

1:14:01.560 --> 1:14:03.200
<v Speaker 2>So even trying to Kurk, a lot of people that

1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:05.920
<v Speaker 2>had issues didn't really understand what he said in context.

1:14:05.960 --> 1:14:08.840
<v Speaker 2>They would hear just little snippets of things, so they

1:14:08.880 --> 1:14:11.439
<v Speaker 2>built an opinion. And now you see, you know, that

1:14:11.520 --> 1:14:14.080
<v Speaker 2>whole thing is being attacked right now from conspiracy theorists

1:14:14.080 --> 1:14:16.200
<v Speaker 2>and all this thing that breaks my heart. It's all

1:14:16.200 --> 1:14:19.920
<v Speaker 2>over the unbelievable, and those people are not most of

1:14:19.920 --> 1:14:22.760
<v Speaker 2>the people. There's no humility. You're not going to see

1:14:22.840 --> 1:14:26.320
<v Speaker 2>humility in a lot of what they're they're saying and doing.

1:14:26.360 --> 1:14:29.000
<v Speaker 2>It's all about likes and followers and get in. It's

1:14:29.080 --> 1:14:32.680
<v Speaker 2>it's I don't know if it can be demonic to

1:14:32.760 --> 1:14:36.200
<v Speaker 2>some degree because that the enemy is planting those fiery

1:14:36.280 --> 1:14:39.240
<v Speaker 2>darts and it's feeding ego. That's what he does. It

1:14:39.240 --> 1:14:42.880
<v Speaker 2>feeds ego, pride comings before a fall, and so you're

1:14:42.920 --> 1:14:46.200
<v Speaker 2>not seeing a lot of humility, and that's what's happening.

1:14:46.520 --> 1:14:46.960
<v Speaker 2>It's sad.

1:14:47.040 --> 1:14:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Really appreciate you coming on and talking about this. This

1:14:50.040 --> 1:14:53.799
<v Speaker 1>is a great conversation. With time, we'll definitely do it again.

1:14:53.720 --> 1:14:54.559
<v Speaker 2>And think biblically.

1:14:56.240 --> 1:14:59.920
<v Speaker 1>How people follow all listen your sermons, follow your writing.

1:15:00.680 --> 1:15:03.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I forgot. Actually all of my books are available

1:15:03.520 --> 1:15:06.320
<v Speaker 2>as free downloads nice at the church website. Yeah, Westside

1:15:06.360 --> 1:15:10.080
<v Speaker 2>Christianfellowship dot org. Westside Christianfellowship dot org. All I think

1:15:10.080 --> 1:15:12.240
<v Speaker 2>there's thirteen books there. I just wrote one. I was

1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:15.880
<v Speaker 2>on Jack Hibbs's podcast about quitting. I almost quit the ministry. Yeah,

1:15:16.120 --> 1:15:18.800
<v Speaker 2>so I worked through that discouragement fear and things like that.

1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:22.960
<v Speaker 2>But mainly they're Westside Christianfellowship dot org or Shaneidelman you

1:15:23.040 --> 1:15:26.360
<v Speaker 2>know on Instagram and Shane s A H, A and E.

1:15:27.280 --> 1:15:29.600
<v Speaker 2>And then I was named after Alan Ladd who was

1:15:29.640 --> 1:15:31.800
<v Speaker 2>in the movie Shane. My parents told me when I

1:15:31.880 --> 1:15:34.680
<v Speaker 2>was younger, and then Idleman I D L E M

1:15:34.680 --> 1:15:36.559
<v Speaker 2>an Shane Idelman. But yeah, I would love to hear

1:15:36.600 --> 1:15:39.280
<v Speaker 2>from people. I'll read these comments from.

1:15:39.280 --> 1:15:41.519
<v Speaker 1>From Oh you committed yourself.

1:15:41.760 --> 1:15:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I once in a while, But you

1:15:43.720 --> 1:15:45.320
<v Speaker 2>can't live off those things because.

1:15:45.040 --> 1:15:47.040
<v Speaker 1>You're you're you're I get it.

1:15:47.360 --> 1:15:49.280
<v Speaker 2>You're too bold, you're too quiet too. It's like you're

1:15:49.280 --> 1:15:52.400
<v Speaker 2>too political. You're not political enough. It's like you're tossed

1:15:52.439 --> 1:15:55.680
<v Speaker 2>to and fro by the opinions of people. So just

1:15:55.680 --> 1:15:57.000
<v Speaker 2>being careful who influences you.

1:15:57.280 --> 1:15:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, good word. Enjoy the conversation.

1:15:59.520 --> 1:16:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Thanks, yeah, thank you.

1:16:00.840 --> 1:16:04.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, give you a shake man way to end it. Hey, friends,

1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:07.439
<v Speaker 1>if you enjoyed this show, please hit that fall button

1:16:07.520 --> 1:16:10.400
<v Speaker 1>on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't

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<v Speaker 1>done this yet, and it makes a huge difference in

1:16:12.760 --> 1:16:15.760
<v Speaker 1>helping us reach and equip more people and build community.

1:16:15.840 --> 1:16:20.559
<v Speaker 1>And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps.

1:16:20.720 --> 1:16:23.200
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to

1:16:23.240 --> 1:16:26.880
<v Speaker 1>you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where

1:16:26.880 --> 1:16:30.880
<v Speaker 1>we have on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual formation,

1:16:31.080 --> 1:16:33.719
<v Speaker 1>marriage and family, Bible and so much more. We would

1:16:33.720 --> 1:16:36.600
<v Speaker 1>love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

1:16:36.720 --> 1:16:39.479
<v Speaker 1>defend the Christian faith today and we will see you

1:16:39.560 --> 1:16:41.200
<v Speaker 1>when the next episode drops.