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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: But it's so important to be filled with the spirit

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Speaker 2: of God, to be humble Amen, broken time with the

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Speaker 2: Lord in his word, and then from that reservoir of

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Speaker 2: intimacy with him, you're going to know how to handle

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Speaker 2: these issues.

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Speaker 1: What just struck me is like a humility and a

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Speaker 1: willingness to speak about your brokenness.

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Speaker 2: Right before God uses a man greatly, he often hurts

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Speaker 2: him deeply, and so it's just a series of God

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Speaker 2: just continuing to break and break, and it's going to

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Speaker 2: be a process till the day I die. And actually

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Speaker 2: the more I broke, the more He used me.

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Speaker 1: After the death of Charlie Kirk, there seems to be

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Speaker 1: two general responses. One, now is the time to go

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Speaker 1: on the offensive. The time for charity and kindness is over. Two,

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Speaker 1: we need to talk with one another more than ever,

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Speaker 1: and we need to calm down some of the rhetoric.

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Speaker 1: Bill Bridges, I know that's a simplification, but tell me

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Speaker 1: where you land on that and why.

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Speaker 2: I think you know and you might hear me say

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Speaker 2: this a few times as we talk. But it's so

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Speaker 2: important to be filled with the spirit of God, to

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Speaker 2: be humble, Amen, broken time with the Lord in his word,

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Speaker 2: and then from that reservoir of intimate intimacy with him,

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Speaker 2: you're going to know how to handle these issues because

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Speaker 2: both cowardliness not saying anything and arrogantly beating people up

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Speaker 2: with your words both come from a fleshly desire. It's

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Speaker 2: it's a flesh taking over. So I think, on one hand,

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Speaker 2: we need to speak the truth and love a lot more.

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Speaker 2: But on the other hand, we've got to make sure

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Speaker 2: it's the right tone, the right the rhetoric and the anger.

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Speaker 2: I mean, America right now is extremely angry. But are

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Speaker 2: we broken? You know, we're upset, but are we humble?

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Speaker 2: And so I know some people won't to hear that,

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Speaker 2: but it needs to come from that type of heart

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Speaker 2: because it's hard to say here's how you need to act.

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Speaker 2: When what about if my actions require silence and just

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Speaker 2: loving the person listening to them, what about my actions

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Speaker 2: it is at a different point required me. You know

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Speaker 2: what I've had You're going to say something school board

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Speaker 2: meetings or whatever's going on, I know, and so being

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Speaker 2: sensitive to the leading of the spirit, because I don't

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Speaker 2: think we can just throw a blanket statement on everything.

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Speaker 2: You know, For example, if I said, yeah, speak the

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Speaker 2: truth and love and fight back, and that's going to

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Speaker 2: send the wrong message. But at the same time, don't

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Speaker 2: say anything, just turn the other cheek. It's funny. Jesus

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Speaker 2: didn't turn the other cheek when he was.

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Speaker 1: Slabbed, That's true.

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Speaker 2: He said why, why? What evil have I done? Why

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Speaker 2: have you slapped me? And so I think there's no

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Speaker 2: blanket approach. If that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: It does. So your person is not going to be

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Speaker 1: lack of a better I guess, dictated by the cultural

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Speaker 1: moment whatever that is. No, not at all, and even

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Speaker 1: one bit. It's more like I get my life right

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Speaker 1: before the Lord filled with the spirit. There's a time

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Speaker 1: for grace, there's a time for truth, and that's the

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Speaker 1: way it's always been since the beginning, the way it

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Speaker 1: always will. Is that a fair synopsis, I think it is.

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Speaker 2: But of course we have to be sense of where

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Speaker 2: the culture is, you know, because there is a time

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Speaker 2: and a place to put on the big boy pants

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Speaker 2: and say something you know or do? I mean you

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Speaker 2: look at where the state of our nation is. I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of it has to do with the

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Speaker 2: silence and the pulpits. The pulpits are not to proclaim

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Speaker 2: you look at the top ten pastors right now and

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Speaker 2: watch their messages. You're not going to hear repentance, the

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Speaker 2: Blood of Christ, judgment, the cross, all these foundational things.

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Speaker 2: So looking at the state of the church and the culture,

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Speaker 2: I think it will require action. But also it has

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Speaker 2: to come from the reservoir that time spent with God.

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Speaker 2: And I've noticed, maybe you have to The more time

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Speaker 2: I spend with God, the bolder I become interesting. Right now,

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Speaker 2: boldness doesn't always mean loud and in your face. It

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Speaker 2: sometimes means that gentle unwavering or that gentle pushback. And

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Speaker 2: I've just noticed, over seasons of fasting and spending time

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Speaker 2: with God, the word of lie word of God come alive.

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Speaker 2: Like just last week when God told Jeremiah, don't diminish

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Speaker 2: one word, don't diminish one word. Preach what I've called

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Speaker 2: you to preach. And you look at Jeremiah twenty three.

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Speaker 2: The false prophets, actually a sure sign of a false

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Speaker 2: prophet is saying peace, Peace, God's happy with our life.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry man. God's not upset. He's a doting grandfather,

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Speaker 2: He's a cosmic ball of love. Peace man. And God said,

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Speaker 2: I've not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I've not spoken,

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Speaker 2: but they spoke. But had they truly stood in my

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Speaker 2: counsel the word of God, they could have turned this

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Speaker 2: nation back to me. My words like a hammer. It's

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Speaker 2: like a fire that devours.

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Speaker 1: So that's part of the tension, right. We are called

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Speaker 1: to be peacemakers, yes, but not false peace that avoids

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Speaker 1: the truth of the Gospel and sin before for the Lord,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. How we balance those two is kind of

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Speaker 1: the constant tension. And I want to come back, not

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Speaker 1: right now, but I don't come back to a few

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Speaker 1: things you said about the purpose of the pulpit, which

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Speaker 1: is really important today.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how being in scripture it gives you more boldness.

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Speaker 1: But for me, I was thinking about this conversation. Some

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Speaker 1: of the hardest issues that I deal with as an

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Speaker 1: apologist are not violenced in the Old Testament, and those

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Speaker 1: are legitimate tough questions. Are not like the morality of say, hell,

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Speaker 1: how God could be justifiled out, or claims that the

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Speaker 1: Gospels contradict or scientific challenges to God. Those are not

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Speaker 1: the toughest ones. The hardest questions I tend to deal

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Speaker 1: with are more personal for people and for myself. How

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Speaker 1: do I balance grace and how do I balance truth?

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Speaker 1: And our culture where there's such competing different world views.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm like, I don't know which voice is the

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Speaker 1: best for right now, so help me. And I have

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Speaker 1: my response to that in some ways, but I want

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Speaker 1: to know how you think about balancing grace and truth,

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Speaker 1: and I would just frame it. You're right that there

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Speaker 1: should be eternal principles, but we live in such an angry,

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Speaker 1: divided culture, angry divided church that rewards people for responding

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Speaker 1: in a certain way, which some ways militates against what

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Speaker 1: should be a biblical approach. So what's your thinking through

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Speaker 1: and how you balance grace and truth in your life

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Speaker 1: and maybe with people in your church.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know what, right at the beginning, what you

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Speaker 2: just said is so important for people to realize the

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Speaker 2: reason it's easier for us to answer, you know, how

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Speaker 2: could a loving God allow this in the Old Testament?

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Speaker 2: All right? Wipe out the city? Or how do you

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Speaker 2: how do you know the Pauline epistles, or how do

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Speaker 2: you know the gospels are accurate? Or how do you

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Speaker 2: you know? Because there's there's a standard answer that's very

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Speaker 2: no matter who. I mean, your Dad's book really helped

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Speaker 2: me when I came back to the Lord on evidence

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Speaker 2: that demands a verge. Absolutely, I couldn't put that thing down.

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Speaker 2: I highlighted it and it really internalized it.

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Speaker 1: My goodness.

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Speaker 2: But when it comes to these issues, it's like, where

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Speaker 2: do you offer you know, as one example, the pronoun idea,

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Speaker 2: if I'm in Starbucks and I say, hey, thanks, grace,

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Speaker 2: he goes, I'm he him, probably not gonna you know, okay,

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Speaker 2: thanks and have a good day. But if it's a constant,

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Speaker 2: like I'm working with him or I'm seeing him every day,

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Speaker 2: at some point maybe maybe I'm Lordy, what do you

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Speaker 2: want me to do? I want to just have grace

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Speaker 2: and love. But at the same time, this is I

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Speaker 2: can't personally do that, and so maybe the boldness to say, hey,

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Speaker 2: why do you say and open that conversation. So it

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Speaker 2: depends on the situation. It depends on Sometimes you need

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Speaker 2: to speak up, you know, but other times we need

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Speaker 2: to offer that that love and grace. So how do

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Speaker 2: I find the balance? Well, number one, I know we're

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Speaker 2: not Jesus right he equally balanced truth and grace. But

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Speaker 2: I also look at I love context, which I know

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Speaker 2: you do as well. Context and you actually challenge me.

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Speaker 2: You probably don't remember this. About ten years ago, we

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Speaker 2: spoke together humulate and I used, if my people are

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Speaker 2: called by my name, humble themselves. You said, that's really

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Speaker 2: for Israel. I'm like, oh, that's a good point, and

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Speaker 2: so it is.

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Speaker 1: I say that you. I don't even remember I was

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Speaker 1: going to go to you, and I just said, like,

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Speaker 1: I just challenged.

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Speaker 2: You, but that was it, and I didn't push back

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Speaker 2: because it's like, because you're right, because you know, God

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Speaker 2: said when I bring pestilent, famin drought, if my people

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Speaker 2: are called by my name, so you can have Okay,

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Speaker 2: that context is Israel. But I think the principle still applies.

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Speaker 2: For example, if America humbled her self, but God judged

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Speaker 2: judges people differently nation, I mean, that's a whole another yea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So my point is I look at context of speak

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Speaker 2: the truth in love. Right, well, if you look at

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Speaker 2: the beginning, in the end, it's about maturing and growing

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Speaker 2: up in the faith. So it's like we must speak

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Speaker 2: the truth and love in order that people mature and

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Speaker 2: grow up in the faith. Ironically, I'm driving here this

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Speaker 2: morning and I had this perfect example. A friend of

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Speaker 2: mine spoke for me last night and Wednesday night because

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Speaker 2: name's Chris, and I challenged him over a decade ago

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Speaker 2: because he was involved with what I say, hyper charismatic,

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Speaker 2: you know kind of and and I just lovingly times

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Speaker 2: I would say, man, you got to just be careful

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Speaker 2: because and then now he thanks me, but back then

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Speaker 2: it was a little well and you know, you're not overly,

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Speaker 2: you know, pushy, but like, hey, have you thought about this?

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Speaker 2: So to answer the question more directly, each situation requires

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Speaker 2: probably and I have to watch it because if I'm

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Speaker 2: if I'm moody, if I'm gonna I mean type a personality.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you talked about this, which we agree on.

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Speaker 2: There are different callings. Yeah, you know your calling is

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Speaker 2: going to be maybe more gentler and more just love,

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Speaker 2: you know, John, John the Beloved where God's wired me

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Speaker 2: as John the Baptist. Right, So I'm gonna be I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna be a little bit more in your face with

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Speaker 2: the sermons. And and but I see the fruit, I

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Speaker 2: see the change lies. I see that, and so knowing

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Speaker 2: I can't equally balance that tension, right, I don't think. Man,

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Speaker 2: I've lived perfectly this week. I perfectly balance grace and

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Speaker 2: love and grace and truth. So speaking the truth and

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Speaker 2: love when it needs to be said, spending that time

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Speaker 2: with God. I think the New Testaments clear you err

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Speaker 2: on the side of grace. I you know, I think

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Speaker 2: we could agree. If you're gonna air, you're probably gonna

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Speaker 2: air on the side of grace. But there comes a

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Speaker 2: time and a place where you've got to speak the

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Speaker 2: truth and love. And what does grace look like? It

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean sweeping sin underneath the carpet. It means to me,

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Speaker 2: grace means, hey, you know what. I know you fell.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about that before. You know where I stand.

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Speaker 2: But you know what, you got to get back up

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Speaker 2: and keep fighting. And so you were able to lovingly rebuke.

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Speaker 2: And so that's what I do at my church. It

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Speaker 2: depends what a person's going through. If I've got a

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Speaker 2: dad who's unrepentant, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot

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Speaker 2: him pretty straight. And look what you're doing to your family,

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Speaker 2: Look what's costing your kids, and I'll put on this,

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Speaker 2: you know. But if there's another guy just came in

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Speaker 2: and he's he's struggling with alcohol and he fell again. Man,

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Speaker 2: just get back up, get to that altar. So it

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Speaker 2: depends on unreally where the where the spirit's leading me.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's not a cop out, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's you know, and being and being careful because our

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Speaker 2: emotions play a role in that too.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's a cop out. I think we

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Speaker 1: all want a line of exactly what we're supposed to do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's natural, but life is messy.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Part of my answer I get when I get asked

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Speaker 1: this question is I say, we're gonna have to live

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Speaker 1: in the tension of grace and truth. And if you're

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Speaker 1: not living in that tension, either you're probably speaking too

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Speaker 1: much truth or showing too much grace in the sense

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Speaker 1: of not speaking truth true. So there's kind of a

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Speaker 1: natural push and pull because I hear new circumstances, I

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Speaker 1: hear new issues. I'm in the moment, So I think

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Speaker 1: all of us are gonna have to live in a

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Speaker 1: certain tension. But the other piece I also think is

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Speaker 1: you said we were an event, I don't know, six

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Speaker 1: or eight weeks ago Pastor's conference for KKLA, and you

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Speaker 1: also said something that's been in the back of my mind,

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Speaker 1: you said to me, you said, you said, I'm more

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Speaker 1: like referring to yourself a John the Baptist, you might

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Speaker 1: be more like a John the Beloved right, And that

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Speaker 1: like really hit me. I've been thinking about that because

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Speaker 1: I remember a spiritually pivotal moment for me is I

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Speaker 1: was sitting here at Biola in the Eagle's Nest and

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Speaker 1: I was reading a book by Brennan Manning and he

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Speaker 1: made a point. This scene so obvious now, but at

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Speaker 1: the point was game changing. He said, spiritual maturity for

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Speaker 1: different people will look different based on their giftings, and

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Speaker 1: for me, at that point, spiritual maturity was my father right,

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Speaker 1: And so I thought, if I'm not as bold as

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Speaker 1: he is, and I had certain characteristics that define him,

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Speaker 1: then I'm not spiritually mature. And I remember reading that going,

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Speaker 1: oh my goodness, there are certain spirits of the fruit

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Speaker 1: in his life I want. But I'm also wired differently,

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Speaker 1: so it might look a little bit differently. Do you

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Speaker 1: agree that that when we talk about like the tension

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Speaker 1: between grace and truth, we have different wirings and it's

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Speaker 1: not gonna look the same for you as it does

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Speaker 1: for me. And should we celebrate that, and maybe we

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Speaker 1: go wrong when we think I'm a true teller and

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Speaker 1: if everybody's not like me, then they're airing. That's what

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Speaker 1: I think concerns me. Or on the flip side, someone's like,

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Speaker 1: I just I show grace. Everybody needs to show grace.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, but I do have a prophetic voice

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Speaker 1: and this person needs to repent. That's kind of what

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Speaker 1: I see your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's exactly you summed up well, because how

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Speaker 2: God has wired us and I've I think what this

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Speaker 2: conversation started with you. I don't remember how it came up,

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Speaker 2: but why and even why I started thinking I think

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Speaker 2: that many years ago. Is I've got pastor friends and

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Speaker 2: they are just incredible. I mean I've listened to sermons.

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Speaker 2: I don't think they ever get what's a good word,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Fired up, animated, animated.

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Speaker 2: Right, It's just they're just man, good teachers and solid

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Speaker 2: And you know Chuck Smith's example, you know Dan hear

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Speaker 2: Cover Chapels or uh, I mean we can list a

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Speaker 2: lot of good, good teachers. Even John MacArthur's kind of

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Speaker 2: just just just straight, but he was bold. So you

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Speaker 2: compare him with Chuck say or you know, like when

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Speaker 2: I was studying theology, I would read Jack K. Fred

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Speaker 2: and John MacArthur, you know, try to find that ballance interesting.

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Speaker 2: So I think there is a wiring like God, you know,

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Speaker 2: let's say, God, I've given you this burden in your

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Speaker 2: heart to call the nation to repentance, and and you're

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Speaker 2: going to be bold and repentance and and just press

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Speaker 2: in and animated like a Whitfield or Wesley. And you

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Speaker 2: read their journals compared to Jonathan Edwards who is very

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Speaker 2: just reading his manuscript, where other people preach their whole

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Speaker 2: body and their messages were different. And so that's what

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Speaker 2: I mean. It's kind of a compliment people, because I

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Speaker 2: would get a lot of people. I wish my pastor

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Speaker 2: was like you, well, no, you don't, you're just you're

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Speaker 2: just you're just glad I'm bold and you're not. You know,

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Speaker 2: six months from now you'll have issues with me too, right,

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Speaker 2: or or other church a man Shamey's a calm down

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Speaker 2: a little bit right, he's just too like, you know,

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Speaker 2: and so you realize, you know, I'm just gonna be

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Speaker 2: comfortable in how God designed me. And there are I believe,

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Speaker 2: there are different callings and we talked about before, even

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Speaker 2: with political arena. Thank God for the Tony Perkins Ordopsin's

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Speaker 2: or those, even though that might not be somebody else's wheelhouse,

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Speaker 2: Like why are they so involved? We should think them

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Speaker 2: that they are, and why are you so involved? I'm

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Speaker 2: not And okay, glad you're not because your main calling

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Speaker 2: is a homeless in your ministry and you know you

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Speaker 2: don't say what happens is we've become wrongly judgmental is

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Speaker 2: where I'm trying to get to. I see a lot

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Speaker 2: of people wrongly judgmental, Like I I'm bold. I'm this

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Speaker 2: bold pastor. I've got one hundred thousand Instagram followers and

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Speaker 2: I call it out and these other pastors are weak

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Speaker 2: and they're woke and not necessarily it could be different callings,

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Speaker 2: you know, different the way God has wired us differently,

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Speaker 2: and thank God for that. So it just was a

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Speaker 2: real I went through a Pharisee season. Can all that.

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Speaker 1: I want to come back to that this is actually

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Speaker 1: really important. But when you said to your comfort, I

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Speaker 1: think you use the word I'm comfortable in my calling. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I want to clarify what you mean by that, because

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Speaker 1: I'm comfortable in the sense of I know who God

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Speaker 1: has called me to be, and I'm an apologist. I

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Speaker 1: speak truth, but I consider myself a relational apologist. I

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Speaker 1: like to have conversations. I'm not threatened by people who

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Speaker 1: see the world differently. I've had some debates, and I

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Speaker 1: enjoy it as much as the next person. I have

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Speaker 1: a competitive edge about me. I'm just drawn to like

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Speaker 1: sit down and connect with people's That's my lane. So

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Speaker 1: I'm comfortable in that. But I also don't want to

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Speaker 1: be too comfortable. I do like just two weeks ago, oh,

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Speaker 1: I have a professor here and he goes Sean. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you say things like you know this gives me pause. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you go sometimes just tell people what you think. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, You're probably right about that.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I might nuance things too much because I want

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Speaker 1: to think about it, like that's a fair challenge to me.

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Speaker 1: So I'm comfortable in my arena, but I also want

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Speaker 1: to be made uncomfortable so I can grow and get better.

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Speaker 1: So tell me what that means for you to be

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Speaker 1: comfortable on God's design but uncomfortable at the same time

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Speaker 1: when someone pushes you.

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Speaker 2: You actually just reveal the gold mine here. I hope

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Speaker 2: people realize because some people can be comfortable and not offending,

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Speaker 2: like that's my goal, or maybe a bolden creatures pastors

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Speaker 2: can be they man they want to offend, and that's

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Speaker 2: not good either.

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Speaker 1: They've got to they got the sake of offending.

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Speaker 2: They got to put on the brakes or somebody else

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Speaker 2: might need to put on the gas. So what I

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Speaker 2: mean is, and I don't know who you used to like,

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Speaker 2: who do you gravitate towards as you when you're younger?

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Speaker 2: I mean what type of books and speakers for me?

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Speaker 2: I loved books on revival American church history, first grade Awakening,

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Speaker 2: second grade Awakening. I mean I devoured those new Hebridge revivals.

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Speaker 2: Duncan Campbell, d Martin, Lloyd Jones recommended. De Martin Lloyd

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Speaker 2: Jones recommended a series of books men like Hal Harris, Griffin, Jones,

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Speaker 2: Daniel Rowlands in Welsh and Scotland. I don't know why,

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Speaker 2: but God, because that's how I'm wired. And then so

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Speaker 2: I like the Wilkerson raven Hilltosers, okay, because that's how

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Speaker 2: I'm wired. But that that's a hard calling because you

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Speaker 2: do convict, you do upset more than most. You say

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Speaker 2: it like it is, and I finally just got comfortable

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Speaker 2: with that, like, Okay, this is how I'm wired, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I came out of the fitness industry as a

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Speaker 2: district manager running fitness centers, and so I was a

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Speaker 2: motivational speaker, right, so.

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Speaker 1: This is before you're even a Christian.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a transitionary period. God use that to bring

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Speaker 2: me back the prodigal son come home. But I would

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Speaker 2: go in like, okay, fill out surveys. You know what

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Speaker 2: was the speaker's appearance, How did they And so it's

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Speaker 2: all based on men's approval. A motivational speaker motivation. Now

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Speaker 2: it's like spending time with God, the words coming alive

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Speaker 2: in my heart and just preach it. And it's when

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Speaker 2: you do that, you know, it's not always popular. And

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Speaker 2: so I had to become comfortable in the calling that

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Speaker 2: God has given me to say the hard things. And

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Speaker 2: I believe the more God has called a person to

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Speaker 2: be that that voice of truth and that, like you said,

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Speaker 2: that prophetic voice, I believe there are different you. Actually,

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Speaker 2: the more humble you have to be because pride is

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Speaker 2: self exaltation and I'm always right and that's how you

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Speaker 2: fall in ministry is because of pride. So you have

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Speaker 2: pride on the sense of us who are bold, but

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Speaker 2: you also have pride on the other hand what we

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Speaker 2: call the woke or whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 2: the cowardly, that they don't want to offend anybody. They

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Speaker 2: don't upset anybody. And in the Gospel, Oswald Chambers actually

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Speaker 2: says the message of the Gospel hurts and offense until

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Speaker 2: there's nothing left to hurting to offend. And he's true.

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Speaker 2: And so so that side, I'm not saying you that

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Speaker 2: the other side has. They have to. They have to.

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Speaker 2: They have to spend time with God and get that

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Speaker 2: boldness back, get that fire the spirit back, and then

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Speaker 2: others of us have to spend that time with God

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Speaker 2: to stay humble and to be broken, impliable and usable

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Speaker 2: by Him. So that's I have to get comfortable, because

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Speaker 2: it's a hard calling to to. I mean, you look

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Speaker 2: at Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Mica

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Speaker 2: and Nahem, you know, the minor, the major, the voices

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Speaker 2: that really spoke God's word faithfully and even difficult to

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Speaker 2: a nation that didn't want to hear it. It's it

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Speaker 2: is hard. So that's why Matt became comfortable with I'm

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Speaker 2: going to ruffle feathers.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: But the testimonies that come in are are just amazing,

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Speaker 2: and so you have to look at that fruit as well.

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Speaker 1: So let's go to your backstory. Well, he said at

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Speaker 1: the beginning, it was something effective being bold, like America.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a truth in boldness, but as America broken.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You and I were speaking event a few weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and you texted me on my way out as I'm

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Speaker 1: driving home, like right, and I got in my card,

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Speaker 1: hit traffic for like two hours, perfect time, and it

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Speaker 1: was a message that you shared and Shane, I was

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Speaker 1: in tears as I was driving down I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it was the five or whatever freeway it was,

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Speaker 1: and just thinking, oh my goodness, here's somebody from the

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Speaker 1: outside is like a bold truth speaker. We've done a

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Speaker 1: few events together, that's my sense. But whoa like this

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Speaker 1: story and what just struck me as like a humility

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Speaker 1: and a willingness to speak about your brokenness, talk about

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Speaker 1: that season and what happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that was at a pastor's conference in Ohio,

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Speaker 2: Salem web networkers, and I was a keynote speaker, and

429
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,199
Speaker 2: you know, before before God uses the man greatly, he

430
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 2: often hurts him deeply. Aw Towser would say. So it's

431
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 2: been a process of I don't know how much open

432
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 2: up with, but in my twenties walking away from God.

433
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 2: You know, it costs a lot and a lot of pain.

434
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 2: And then finally when the prodigal son came home and

435
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 2: just the tears and the fullness of the spirit, you know,

436
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: it was it was incredible. And then when the work

437
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 2: comes alive, you know, the Bible talks about knowledge puffs up,

438
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 2: so you know, five years into it, I'm quote Spurgeon

439
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 2: and the Puritans and Tulip and and all these things,

440
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 2: and I'm just, you know, I'm just grudom Systemacteology I

441
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 2: devoured in June July August one summer and Hodge's System

442
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 2: Acteology and lectures to my students Spurgeon and Lloyd Joan.

443
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 2: Just like, man, I'm just man, I'm just telling people off,

444
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 2: and I'm just putting my people, you know, just like

445
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,199
Speaker 2: kind of like here's what you gotta do. And my

446
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: mom finally came to me. She says, hey, nobody wants

447
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 2: to be around you. By the way, by then I

448
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: am twenty nine.

449
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 1: Twenty nine, thirty fired up theologically truth teller.

450
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 2: Oh no, but then five years later, so thirty thirty four,

451
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 2: thirty five.

452
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 1: So you're thirty four. It was your mom, of all

453
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 1: people that came to you, Okay, paint that picture what happen.

454
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she said, uh, Shane, nobody wants to be

455
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: around you anymore. And I said, well, they're just convicted, right,

456
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 2: because you know, alcoholism or this, and they're just convicted.

457
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 2: They don't like what I have to say. It's like, no,

458
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 2: it's not what you say, it's it's how you say it.

459
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 2: You're And so that that Phariseeism had to be broken

460
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 2: out of me. And it's a process and many many,

461
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 2: I'm sure listening to this will will need to spend

462
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: some time with the Lord to get broken before him

463
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,959
Speaker 2: because they're bold, but they're arrogant, and that's you know,

464
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 2: that's that's you gotta have boldness, but you've got to

465
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: like Whitfield wouldn't preach without about hell without tears in

466
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: his eyes, you know, and having So that that's what

467
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: happened at that Ohio event. It was just just that

468
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 2: breaking process. And there are other times I shared with you.

469
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 2: I am twenty seventeen. Maybe I had a young girl

470
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 2: come in sixteen seventeen. She said, you just made me

471
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: feel so bad. Today I'm struggling the same sex attraction.

472
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 2: And I preach, because I preach, here's the difficult of

473
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 2: the person, right, and you want to help them and

474
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: share God, but you the agendas killing me. Right. It's

475
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: like the schools like how.

476
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: Do you how do you balance that?

477
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 2: How do you love the one? But call out the agenda?

478
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 2: And so I cried with her and I learned a

479
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: valuable lesson that day. I've had other you know, just

480
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 2: that breaking process where because when you're strong and bold,

481
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 2: you know, you'll steamroll people if you're not careful. And

482
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: so it's just a series of God just continuing to

483
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 2: break and break, and it's going to be a process

484
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: till the day I die. But and so I think,

485
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: and actually the more I broke, the more He used me,

486
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 2: you know, So so opportunities would open, God would would

487
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: open more doors, and it was just it was it

488
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 2: was incredible. So that's kind of my framework of where

489
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 2: I come from.

490
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: So I want to pro I want to probe it

491
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 1: out a little bit, and I don't want to frame

492
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 1: from people like boldness can turn into arrogance very easily.

493
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: Meekness can turn into cowardice. Yeah, So the key is

494
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: how we balance the two of these without and maybe again,

495
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: I think because of our wiring or our experience, some

496
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: of us are naturally grace givers. Some of us are

497
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: naturally truthtelligent. I think some of that is just wired

498
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: into our DNA. Yeah, it's not going to change, but

499
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: take us like, paint that picture a little bit more.

500
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: Your mom comes to you, you're about thirty four, how

501
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: you responded, and then kind of the steps of working

502
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: through that brokenness, because there's probably a lot of people

503
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: watching this that I do want to be challenged a

504
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 1: little bit to maybe think, you know what, I need

505
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: to do some of this similar work in my own

506
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: life and for the record, not just for them, for

507
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: me too, write I need to keep working do this well.

508
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 2: I think I shared this in one of my books

509
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 2: and articles and different things. Another point after this time,

510
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 2: I think my wife down purpose but I don't think

511
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,719
Speaker 2: we even had kids yet, just married. She left her

512
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 2: journal open, you know, and it said, I married a

513
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: man who is you know, heart domineering or controlling in this.

514
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: You know, I can't do much about it. I wouldn't

515
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 2: want to have, you know, affect the kids. I'm like, what,

516
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 2: I took it a drive. I was so angry and upset,

517
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: but what I was doing. I was like, no, you

518
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 2: can't start a makeup business, or you can't do this.

519
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 2: We're saving money, We're saving So it wasn't controlling it

520
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: psych a It was just like, no, we're not going

521
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 2: to spend money doing that. We're not, you know, just

522
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 2: kind of not respecting the wife's thoughts that you show

523
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: become one. And so we talked it through and that

524
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: really got me to another spot of brokenness as well.

525
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 2: And then I mentioned actually this Sunday that we we

526
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: our church began to visit hospital homes. Do you know

527
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 2: what those are? Their hospitals inside neighborhoods where people will

528
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: investors will buy a house and then they'll turn it

529
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: into four bedroom you know, and they get they get

530
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: income and they put patients there with nurses. So our

531
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: church was given like five of these to go and

532
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: minister too. And the stuff I saw there, I would

533
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 2: leave just crying, you know, I remember one suicide fell,

534
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: suicide attempt, half of her skulls missing. She's blind and

535
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: she's depressed and suicidal. I'm there to minister to her.

536
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: She can't see, but I'm crying my tears on the

537
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: floor and I'm praying for her about when she was

538
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: abused as a four year old. And just and I

539
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 2: go to another guy's a paraplegic, and these things that

540
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 2: are just breaking and breaking. But God, that's how he

541
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: keeps your heart tender and pliable because you can have

542
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 2: you can be straight as a gun barrel theologically, but

543
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 2: just as empty, you know, dead inside. Uh, just arrogant

544
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: and we see that that Bible thumping in your face,

545
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: you know, certain and just that they're just you can

546
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 2: tell those people there's just too much arrogance. They don't

547
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: there's not enough. And again that's that's something I'm working

548
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: on till the day I die. So don't look at

549
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: me and go, oh, that's of course, that's a great example.

550
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: Now I struggle with it often, you know, but so yeah,

551
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: my mom's thing, my wife's journal, just other things that

552
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: just God keeps breaking and breaking and uh, and it

553
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 2: just gets to a point where and now worship, you know,

554
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 2: during worship, you know, just praying, preparing for that message

555
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: you you heard. Actually what broke me there is before

556
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: they told this lady she became a Christian because of

557
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: the Samaritans purse those shoe boxes. Oh yeah, And so

558
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 2: she's talking about how they were delivered to her and

559
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: I ran or Iraq or something like that and became believers.

560
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: Her father was actually threatened for his, like her life,

561
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 2: like we're going to kill you and your family, and

562
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: like just she only had like okay, you got five minutes,

563
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 2: you got six minutes, right, And and I'm naxt I'm

564
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: thinking that's that's the keynote speaker. She needed to be

565
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: the keynote speaker. God help. And I just went up

566
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: there already already kind of just in tears because like

567
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,959
Speaker 2: we can't rush her through this, like this is, this

568
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: is so important. This is and Pastor Shane our guest speaker,

569
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: and like like those things just break you and you

570
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 2: have to be you have to not think so highly

571
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 2: of yourself and you have to be broken before God

572
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: and through that brokenness, you know, the more when the

573
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: more we the more we do that, the lower we

574
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: go the more he'll elevate too. And of course we

575
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 2: get into my background dyslexia, graduate high school at the

576
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: one point eight, re reading and learn new disabilities. Came

577
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: from a hard working construction family, was destined to be nothing, really,

578
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: and then once I committed to myself to the Lord

579
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: and that everything just shifted. You know.

580
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 1: I went to school here in ninety four to ninety

581
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: eight at Biola and had a number of different friends,

582
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: but one friend in particular who was in some ways

583
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: my perception the way you're describing yourself when you were younger.

584
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: He was a truth teller. He would go out and

585
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: do evangelism all the time, stood up in chapel a

586
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: few times and called out a speaker and left. And

587
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: let's just say we ended on not great terms. Yeah,

588
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: maybe I shouldn't say this, but he's He's the only

589
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: person I was inches away from just punching and trying

590
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: to knock him out. I was so upset. I'm not

591
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,479
Speaker 1: proud of that. And we, you know, we were in

592
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: touch a little bit all the time, but mostly lost touch.

593
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: He left, went to another university, and it was shortly

594
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: after the death of Charlie Kirr that he sent me

595
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: an email and he apologized for the way that he

596
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: acted here. And I'm not going to pretend that I

597
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: did everything right. That's not the point here, but I

598
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: got that and I was like, first off, I didn't

599
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: expect that. Second, it was so moving that somebody three

600
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: decades later is like, you know what, God convicted my

601
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: heart and I just see a difference in his character

602
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: and he's coming out here soon. I'm heading to where

603
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: he lives and we're gonna like hang out, and it's

604
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: like literally just like I'm really looking forward to seeing

605
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: him because of this, and just an example of somebody

606
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 1: that in some ways it seems to kind of mirror

607
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: your story a little bit. What would you say to

608
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: that person? Because you and I have talked about individuals.

609
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: We don't need to name names at all, but when

610
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: you see people maybe on social media, YouTube, pastors, conferences,

611
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: in conversation wherever, and you kind of see yourself in

612
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: somebody who's younger and going, you know what, I think

613
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: you need to be humbled. You know, you can fill

614
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: in the blank. What would you say to yourself twenty

615
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: years ago?

616
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: First, my mind is going to I wonder why he

617
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: called him out, like is it something to call the personality?

618
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: You know what?

619
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: I will actually tell you he was right about it.

620
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: He was right.

621
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: Well, so that's a fair question. He stood up called

622
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: a guy a heretic, and this guy's completely left his

623
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: faith and has become a humanist. So he saw stuff

624
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: that I didn't see. So there was you know, he

625
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: was right about certain things. The timing I don't know

626
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: the answer to that. But to answer your question, I

627
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: was like, well, he was right on that one.

628
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: That sounds like I mean I would I've thought about

629
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: that before. You know, when do you call people out?

630
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: And when do you not? You know, when you say

631
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: But what was the question? I forgot again?

632
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: So the question was what you would say to your

633
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: younger self? Oh my god, by the way, before you

634
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: answer that, I think the line this person said was

635
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: something effective. You think you'll be saved without shedding some

636
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: of your own blood?

637
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah?

638
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: And he just called it out. And in my mind

639
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm still at that now, I like, see it crystal clear,

640
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: but that day, what does he mean? And trying to

641
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: figure it out. He just called it out, and I

642
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: think he was right that he's preaching a false gospel.

643
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: But my question for you is what would you say

644
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: to yourself, my younger or somebody twenty years ago.

645
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: Boy, you know what, I actually write about it and

646
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: preach it in sermons. So that's how I try to

647
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: get it out out of out there. And I do

648
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: come to younger pastors and leaders. The problem with pride

649
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: is you don't see it. And you can tell people

650
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: certain things hopefully it'll stick, but really life has got

651
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: to break them. God's got to break them. So you

652
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: can say and they're like, oh yeah, I God, I'll

653
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: be different. You know I'm not. That's what can happen

654
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: to me. I don't remember if you remember Steve Farrar's

655
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: book Finishing Strong.

656
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: I do.

657
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: I'll never forget. He interviewed or somebody did two hundred

658
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: and eighty of the top Christian men who fell in ministry,

659
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: and at the top of the list was that will

660
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: never happen to me. That will never happen to me.

661
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: And see they don't want to and other people I

662
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 2: don't want to, you know. But back in the eighty

663
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: some of these big ministries that fell, like David Wilkerson

664
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: went to some of these people or other people, and

665
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: they don't want to hear it. They don't want to,

666
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: so I would. I would probably pray for the person

667
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: for God to wake them up, and I would share, Hey,

668
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: you know, we're sensing some and usually that want to

669
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: be challenged, so they'll push back. Oh no, I'm just

670
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: I'm just convicting. You know, that's a guy. That's a

671
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: message God gave me. And I'm just I'm just a

672
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: straight shooter. I've heard that before. I'm just a straight shooter.

673
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: You know. No, you're arrogant. You're arrogant because you can tell.

674
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: You can tell when somebody's just feisty. And but then

675
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: you have that that bold prophetic voice too that we

676
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: see sometimes on Instagram. There's that he's actually exploding right

677
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: now that the guy in Georgia, black guy incredible. You know,

678
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: I sense truth and love and other people, but you

679
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: can sense that just that arrogance, wanting likes, wanting more followers,

680
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: wanting more views. And so I would try to say

681
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 2: something to my younger self, but my younger self wouldn't.

682
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: You're not even sure the person would would hear it.

683
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: That's totally that's a fair point. Yeah, yeah, I've had

684
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: conversations with people have gone both ways. I've seen people

685
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: on it, and I've said, really kindly in relationship, I

686
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: think you're head in the direction it's going to be destructive.

687
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: And just know when you get there, I love you

688
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: and I'm here for you.

689
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: Amen.

690
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: That's a good And I've said to people like this,

691
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: you're arrogant and you need to change and you need

692
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: to repent, and neither worked in the moment now that

693
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: I figure about it, Yeah, And I don't know. I mean,

694
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: maybe it's just a matter of, like you said, following

695
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: your conviction before the Lord, hope your full spirit pray

696
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: for that person.

697
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: And and I should add it's not like I wouldn't

698
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: say anything. Sure, I'm just not confident it's going to fair.

699
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: That's fair, and believe it. I mean there's times I

700
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: can't tell you how many times I'll get an email

701
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: a year or two later and say, Hey, just want

702
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: to let you know you're right, thank you for challenging me.

703
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: I really thought about it. Most people aren't going to

704
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: respond well initially because it takes humility to respond well.

705
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: And if they're prideful, they're not going to respond well.

706
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: So it's kind of like, you know, they're like I

707
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: can say Oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I

708
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: need to work on that because we all need to

709
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: work on something, you know. I mean, if people like

710
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: we see in the media, social media, that all these

711
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 2: people are accusing people that they should say, you know,

712
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: I do need to work on some of that. Thank

713
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 2: you for bringing it up and move forward. But there's

714
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: pride won't let you do that. It's guarding. It's self preservation.

715
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: That's what pride is. That's what legalism is. It's self

716
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: preservation rules versus wisdom of following God's rules. Right, you

717
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: want to you want to follow God's rules. You want

718
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: to you want to build that relationship. And I don't

719
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 2: consider them rules or guardrails through the canyons of life.

720
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: Really, how much do you think about long term with people?

721
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: Because I think about my students. And I had a

722
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: student who really was in my class and became an atheist,

723
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: and we had coffee a couple of times. It was

724
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: really good and it was just clear to me he

725
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: has made up his mind, not open. And I just

726
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: graciously at the end, I said, you know, you went

727
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: down this road without me being a part of the

728
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: conver station, became an atheist. Did it alone? If you

729
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: ever just open the door up and are considering God again,

730
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 1: will you shake my hand, look me in the eyes,

731
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: and promise me that you'll at least invite me into

732
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: the conversation. Shook my hand and said, yes, I haven't

733
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 1: heard from him yet. You know, he's twenty some years

734
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: behind me. But I think about playing the long term

735
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: with people. But then the voice in the back of

736
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: my mind sometimes is like, but you know what, they

737
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: could get hit by a car tonight. And maybe that's

738
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: the evangelist in me true that I go back to,

739
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: and I don't know how to. I just don't always

740
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: know how to balance that. And maybe it is like

741
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: you said, we're back to just like before the Lord,

742
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: just speak truth with a heart of that person as

743
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: best as I can. And maybe I didn't do it perfectly,

744
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: but that's where grace comes in, and I can just

745
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: trust God's sobeimntying that person's life.

746
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: I mean, well, you know what, you just made me

747
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: think of something I've I've not a good example of

748
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 2: this in the past, because you know what, you say

749
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 2: something lovingly confront you want to you want to follow

750
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: up a couple of weeks later, a month later and

751
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: you keep pressing where you should just left it, and

752
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: I actually push people farther away, you know, like what

753
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: you had me thinking, but now you're upsetting me and like, oh,

754
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: I like with kids that are rebellion, right, I mean,

755
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 2: your kids know where you stand. You just love them.

756
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: You don't you don't allow certain things under your roof,

757
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: but they you know, they need that grace. And I

758
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: think I've seen so many kids walk away, yes from

759
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: Luke war mccarnal Holmes, but also from the modern day

760
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 2: Pharisee homes where their dad rules at home like a

761
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: rod of iron and it's rules and they don't see

762
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: the brokenness and gentleness and love and grace of Christ.

763
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: And you that's actually I think it was. I think

764
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 2: it was your dad again. Oh my goodness, he said, uh,

765
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 2: he said. One of the most common questions he gets,

766
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: this is like thirty years ago, from young adults that

767
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: he travels the country. This is one of the number

768
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: one questions he gets from young adults is how can

769
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 2: I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ

770
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 2: my parents have? Wow, I remember reading that. I highlight

771
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: it and I just how can I live? And their

772
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: number one question all the young adults. Is how can

773
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ

774
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: my parents out? I mean that if that doesn't bring

775
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 2: you to tears, you know that that broke. And that's

776
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 2: how I believe our kids are, at least our kids

777
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: so far doing well because we show them that brokeness

778
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: and that humility. I could have handled that better, but

779
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: we stand strong on certain things. But they see that grace,

780
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: They see that that's powerful because when it breaks you,

781
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: it breaks them. But that arrogance, they'll push back on

782
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: that legalism.

783
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: So you're pastor and you're dealing with a lot of

784
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: families and individuals, And you've talked about families who leave

785
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: a lukewarm home, families who leave a legalistic home. My experience,

786
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: haven't done some writing and thinking a lot of conversations

787
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: on deconstruction and deconversion. Yeah, it's far more those who

788
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: have come from the legalistic home and are reacting against it. Now,

789
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: it might be that those who leave lukewarm home just

790
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: end up they're not upset about it, and then I'll

791
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: talk about it. So I don't have a number on

792
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: which one is more significant statistically, but those are the

793
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: stories that I hear more do you hear those kinds

794
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: of stories far more? And how would you counsel a

795
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: parent when you know that this element is present and

796
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: their kids are questioning these kinds of you know, they're

797
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: questioning their faith, they're concerned about them. But you see

798
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: that legalism present in the family. So I guess it's

799
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: a two part question. Do you see more reacting in

800
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: the way that I describe from that fundamentalist, legalistic, harsh family,

801
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: and how do you navigate that when it comes to you?

802
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: Well, here's a good test for your listeners. The legalist

803
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: is not going to like what you just said. And

804
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: if you don't like what I said, it's because you

805
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: need to hear what I said basically. But let me qualify.

806
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 2: Neither home is good, okay, neither home rightly, lukewarm, carnal,

807
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: any type of lukewarm would be Yeah, Concerts that maybe

808
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: aren't God honoring, movies that aren't God honoring Netflix, Okay.

809
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: So is it fair to say these other priority these

810
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: things matter at the spense of church and living out

811
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: your faith as opposed to like, you can be a

812
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 1: vibrant Christian but engage certain things and culture wisely?

813
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: Is that for Surekaya? Leave that, you leave that up

814
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: to the individual.

815
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: So your point was when I cut you off, is

816
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: that that lukewarm family is not good. Neither is the

817
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: legalistic family is not good.

818
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: Right, I'm not I'm not promoting. Just because we're harping

819
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,959
Speaker 2: on the legalistic one doesn't mean the lukewarm carnal whatever

820
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: you want to call that. Yeah, but here's what happens

821
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: in the lukewarm carnal type homes where they're not on

822
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 2: fire for the lord. It's pretty clear that they're not

823
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: on fire for the lord. So the kids are not man,

824
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: my mom, dad, aren't living it. They know they're not

825
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: living it. You know, you're not really sending a mixed

826
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: signal other unless you're trying to live it out and

827
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: you're being false and fake and a hypocrite. You know,

828
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 2: that's what hypocrite was, right. They show up the mask

829
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 2: and thing on Sunday, somebody else on Monday. But kids

830
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: with carnality and lukewarmness, it's dangerous, but you know, they

831
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: see it and they see in themselves and their parents.

832
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: But with legalism and what we call you know, I

833
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 2: don't know what term you used. Fundamentalist, Yeah, I mean

834
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: that's that term comes from nineteen oh four nineteen oh

835
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: five when our A Torri wrote his Fundamentals of the Faith.

836
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: So it's it's okay term, but what we.

837
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,439
Speaker 1: Taught here by the way, they have a Tory conference. Yeah,

838
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 1: use a violin.

839
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: That's that's pretty cool. So so that word isn't neutral.

840
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 2: The problem is when it's and I've just seen it.

841
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 2: I mean, the kids just not only do they totally rebellious,

842
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: they're just hurt, and they're the deconstructionism for people. I'm

843
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: sure people know who follow your channel, but it's deconstructing

844
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: their faith, right, working it back the opposite way. Well,

845
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 2: maybe if this and the worst thing you can do

846
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: is show God's truth without his love principles to follow

847
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: without the grace that you need to get back up

848
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: and keep fighting. So that's what it does. It Actually

849
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: I legalistic. A home sets a standard that nobody can hit.

850
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 2: But you're acting like you're hitting it because you're the

851
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: you know, not in mind, we don't go to the movies,

852
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: you know, we don't do this. We have a certain

853
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 2: translation of the Bible we use and and women have

854
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: to wear dresses and head coverings. Now get into the whole,

855
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 2: which which is fine if you want, but it's the

856
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: attitude behind it. See, it's not necessarily the rules, it's

857
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: the attitude behind it. And the kids. It pushes them

858
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: away because I need grace. I can't measure up all

859
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: these rules and and locked up in your room for

860
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: half a day and this, and you just there's no

861
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 2: there's no breathing room to grow in your faith, because

862
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: faith is following God's law, following is his commandments, but

863
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 2: also having the grace and the mercy to get back

864
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: up and to keep fighting and to have people in

865
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: your corner. Hey, you can keep doing this. This is

866
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: not allowed. You cannot come home at midnight again. But

867
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: you know, and you and you you know you have

868
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: the grace with the truth, and so that's legalistic. Homes

869
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: just don't provide the incubator of genuine faith because they

870
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 2: constantly feel they will never measure up, they're never good enough.

871
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 2: They can never please mom, never please dad, and they

872
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: just live like that and it's kind of sad.

873
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: So I'm going to ask you a somewhat difficult question.

874
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: Maybe it won't be hard for you, but I know

875
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: you can take it. This is probably fifteen years ago.

876
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: And it's not like a theological question or apologetic question.

877
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: It's a scenario because I get emails daily from people

878
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: like parents and families. How do I navigate this with

879
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: my kid? How do I navigate this in the church?

880
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: And it's always like I want them to have truth,

881
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: but I value the relationship. Where do I draw the line?

882
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: And so I'm just curious how you play this one

883
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: out again. Probably fifteen maybe twenty years ago, when there

884
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: was so much conversation about same sex marriage, a pastor

885
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: shared with me that at his church they were having

886
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: trying to remember some of the details, They're having kind

887
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: of a marriage day or kind of retreat celebration, and

888
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: they had couple stand who had been married the longest,

889
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: and the last couple standing was a same sex couple now,

890
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: and they were going to get some kind of award

891
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: from the church and recognition for this in front of

892
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: the church. Now they obviously they hadn't been legally married,

893
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: because this just goes back to twenty fifteen. But that's

894
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: the kind of situation I sit there. I'm like, oh, man,

895
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: if I'm sitting in that situation, I want to speak truth,

896
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: but I also don't want to shame this couple in

897
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: a way that's unnecessary to me in my mind. That

898
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 1: is almost so often like highlighted this tension between how

899
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: do you just show grace and kindness to people and

900
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: how do you balance truth? What goes through your mind

901
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: as a pastor if you're sitting there and this unexpected

902
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: couple stands when you're trying to celebrate God's sign for marriage,

903
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: and if you're like, I need to think about this

904
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: because I've been thinking about it for like fifteen years,

905
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: I'm totally fine with that.

906
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 2: Well, no, I mean it's I think I answered pretty

907
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 2: pretty quickly because what I do is anytime we measure

908
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 2: grace or truth, right, I look at what is the

909
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 2: greater harm. So my silence is going to be more

910
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: harm to my congregation. So yes, I might have fend.

911
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: So I probably say, hey, guys, let's talk about this

912
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: one after church, you know. But also I don't know

913
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: if they would be all are welcome right at church,

914
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 2: but we don't affirm so because of my preaching and

915
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 2: preaching them, they probably for openly same sex couple to

916
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: be coming to church. Maybe they're new, brand new, I

917
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: don't know, it could be. But if they're probably not

918
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 2: going to come and stay in sin, if that makes sense,

919
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: because it's just the convicting of the message, not targeting them,

920
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: but just the conviction of God's word. So for me me,

921
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: I would because of the congregation, my role as a leader,

922
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: my kids might be there, my wife. I probably say, okay, guys,

923
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,919
Speaker 2: and let's talk about that later. I'm gonna I'm gonna

924
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 2: do a sermon at some point on God's design for marriage.

925
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 2: But I'm looking for those who've been married according to

926
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 2: God's design. So yes, it might shame them, but they

927
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: actually created this environment. I didn't create it. I'm responding

928
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: to it. So to me, that silence would have spoke

929
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 2: volumes and it would have actually done more damage to

930
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: my testimony and to the members of my church. I

931
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 2: love that.

932
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: I think that's really whise. And you email me something

933
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: about how sometimes silence can actually cause harm and this

934
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: is example of doing so. So it sounds smack when

935
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: it came to the pronoun issue earlier. If somebody is

936
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: that call me, he him, you don't feel the need

937
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: to go out of your way and correct that person immediately.

938
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to go along with this right

939
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna look for the more opportune time to

940
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: address that wisely. In this circumstance, I'm goten away to

941
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: shame this couple, but this is public. I've already preached

942
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: on where our church stands. I'm gonna shift to the

943
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: right one, move on, and then fall up with that

944
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 1: couple as lovingly and graciously as I can.

945
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for me, I weigh what is the what's

946
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: the greater damage? That's smart, you know, And then you know,

947
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: now it depends on the person. Though. If I'm at

948
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: Starbucks and I've got my my sixteen year old and

949
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: my eighteen year old, and I've got somebody saying, like,

950
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: you know to my daughter, no, I'm hear him, and

951
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: i say, hey, hey, we're not lying here. You're not

952
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: hear him. It's a linguistically pronoun like, I don't understand

953
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 2: this whole thing because it's to me, it's lying. It's

954
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: not being honest. However, it depends on the situation. Most

955
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: of the time it's just like, okay, thanks Chris, nice

956
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: to meet You're But if it's going to be a

957
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: constant thing, and depending what the environment is where it's at,

958
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 2: I mean, if it's at church. I'm in the prayer room.

959
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: You know, it's a very different, you.

960
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: Know, And I say, hey, what's your name, Chris? Can

961
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 2: I pray with you? No it's not, it's he him

962
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 2: And I say, oh no, no, I love you, but can't.

963
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 2: Let's talk about he him word. And I use that

964
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: as opportunity. But I'm not gonna call them. I'm not

965
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 2: gonna honor what I think is dishonoring to God. You know.

966
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: Again with the wighing, the silence speaks volumes, and that's

967
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 2: what I think. Many what I consider I don't know

968
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 2: if you want to use the term. It's been used

969
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: the wrong way sometimes woke or liberal or progressive. And

970
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: I have friends and that consider, you know, they're more

971
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 2: kind of that leaning. But there it's almost an arrogance

972
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: in their silence. And I talked to him, why don't

973
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: you ever I don't mention sin much because that's God's

974
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: job to convict. I'm like, no, it's really yours from

975
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: the pulpit too. You're a watchman, you're a preacher of

976
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 2: God's truth. It's not He's gonna have you as well

977
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 2: convict them. And so there's this thought that it's not

978
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 2: my job to convict, it's my job to love. Know,

979
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: it's actually your job to do both. That's why Paul

980
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: said be ready in and out season. The time will

981
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: come when they're not going to put up with sound doctrine,

982
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: you know, exhort, encourage, long suffering, genterally. I mean, so

983
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: we have we have the scriptural man to preach all

984
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: of God's and I think the most powerful preaching of

985
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 2: God's word comes from the truth being preached in love.

986
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,479
Speaker 2: If you if you go, if you go any side,

987
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: if you're just, if you're all truth, and I'm meant,

988
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: if you're if you're a, if you're gay in here,

989
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: if you're you know you're and you're just beating the

990
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 2: pulpit and you're just putting down people, it's not gonna

991
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 2: it's just you just hurt a lot of people. But

992
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: if you're like, you know what, I'm not gonna not

993
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: gonna go there. I'm not gonna I mean, just look

994
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: at all the political hot buttons or whatever you want

995
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 2: to call them. They're they're biblical, they're biblical hot buttons.

996
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 2: And so if I just going to remain silent, it's

997
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: really it's really because I've struggled with this. It's cowardliness,

998
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: isn't it. I don't want to deal with this. I

999
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 2: don't want upset anybody. It's cowardliness. And that's why I

1000
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 2: said earlier. The more time I spend with God the Boulder,

1001
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 2: I become okay.

1002
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: So hold that I want to. I'll explore that. But

1003
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 1: your point about the sphere, I think is really really

1004
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: wise and helpful. I want to make sure we don't

1005
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: miss this. I was just I teach a class here

1006
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 1: at at BIOL called Gospel Kingdom Cold, and it's apologetics, evangelism,

1007
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: spiritual conversations, and the thorniest cultural issues people can talk about.

1008
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: So we talk about race, we talk about transgender we

1009
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 1: talk about poverty, we talk about artificial intelligence. And the

1010
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: board down like directed it for Thattius Williams and I

1011
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: to write this course. And we were just talking about

1012
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: pronouns this week, and I said, before we just answer this,

1013
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 1: maybe there's a differen between a Christian and a non Christian,

1014
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: an adult and a child. There's so many different settings

1015
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: that are taking place here. And you're right, like in

1016
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: Starbucks when somebody's dropping off your coffee really fast, and

1017
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: it's like abrupt versus somebody who's in the church asking

1018
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: for prayer. Yeah, even that nuance is makes a big

1019
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: difference when and how we speak truth. So I just

1020
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: want I want to make sure because I want to

1021
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: ruminate on that even more myself. I think there's a

1022
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: lot of wisdom in that. Let's go back to scripture.

1023
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 2: Well, the wisdom came from a lot of failure too,

1024
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: so that's where.

1025
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 1: Well, most wisdom does, doesn't it. I think most wisdom does.

1026
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 1: I think. I think that's right. And the wise people

1027
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: learn from other people's failures. Yes, that's true, that's for sure.

1028
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: So we're talking about scripture making us more bold. Now

1029
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: I have my thoughts about this, but I want to

1030
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: hear from you first what you mean by that and

1031
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: how that works.

1032
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 2: The boulder I become. Yeah, well, because I think by nature,

1033
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 2: and what I mean by nature is you know, if

1034
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: you jump in a river, you're just going to go

1035
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 2: to the flow, You're not gonna so by nature, most

1036
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 2: people are not confrontational, right, I just don't want to

1037
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: give a good sermon. I want people to like me.

1038
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 2: I want them to come back next Sunday, you know,

1039
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 2: And sadly, a lot of a lot of pastors. I've

1040
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: got pastor friends that are subject to deacon boards, and

1041
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 2: if they start really speaking the truth, they're going to

1042
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 2: lose some of their audience and the financial budgets. And

1043
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,439
Speaker 2: so what I mean by that is the those things

1044
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: are just put aside. Like the more time I spend

1045
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 2: in God's word, the bolder I become for cultural issues.

1046
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: And pastors pulpit like I want to make sure we're

1047
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: connecting everybody, but keep going how it relates to you.

1048
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so these things that are that are human nature,

1049
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call them, wired by default to

1050
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 2: be quiet, cowardly, timid. You know, that's kind of our

1051
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 2: Most people want to be liked by people, right, Jesus said,

1052
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 2: we'll be to you when all men speak well of you,

1053
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: or if you're trying to please men, you won't be

1054
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: a pleaser of God. And so when it comes to

1055
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: what we're talking about, speaking the truth and loved cultural issues,

1056
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: the more time I spend with God, the boulder I

1057
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: become on these issues that most of us are inclined

1058
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 2: to be silent about. That makes sense, it does, Yeah,

1059
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: So I think it is two reasons for me.

1060
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,479
Speaker 1: The more I study scripture. The more I'm confident about

1061
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: what scripture says, and so I have a certain confidence

1062
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: of life. You know what, I can take criticism from

1063
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: people if I know that I'm standing on a position

1064
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 1: that is the most reasonable, likely biblical position. It just

1065
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: gives me confidence to say, fine, I've got the Lord

1066
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 1: at my back and I've thought about this. So personally,

1067
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: I find that that happens a lot the more I

1068
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: study an issue and have conviction about it and get

1069
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: into the scriptures. But the second is I just see

1070
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: over and over again in the scriptures how much it

1071
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: says to be bold. So I've been studying Deuteronomy over

1072
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: and over again in the morning, and it's like a

1073
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: drum beat in that book. Now, of course, this is

1074
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 1: Moses's final speech before they enter the Promised Land, so

1075
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 1: he's got to tell them be bold, do not be afraid.

1076
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: I should do a quick search how many times, but

1077
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: it's probably dozens of times. So I read that, I'm like, wow,

1078
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: be bold, be bold, don't be afraid, speak truth. And

1079
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: so just being in scripture reminds me of that. The

1080
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,919
Speaker 1: other thing that jumped out is I was before dude,

1081
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: I was studying Luke and when Luke, I'm sorry. When

1082
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: Jesus stands up in the gospel route Luke and reads

1083
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: from Isaiah sixty one, I believe it is, and he's like,

1084
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,760
Speaker 1: these things have been fulfilled in your presence. It says

1085
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: twice about how everybody was praising him and everybody loved him,

1086
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: but by the end of that chapter they want to

1087
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 1: throw him off a cliff. At Nazareth, I'm like, wow,

1088
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: they shifted from loving him and caring for him to

1089
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: wanting to throw him off the cliff. I've signed up

1090
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: to follow this guy. What audience am I playing for?

1091
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: Am I playing for being pleased by men? If so,

1092
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: my life is like a roller coaster. I'm at the

1093
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: whims of what people think about me. But if I'm

1094
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: trying to please God and be on his side, it's

1095
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 1: actually freeing for me and gives me more boldness just

1096
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: by being in scripture in that fast That's more my

1097
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: experience with it.

1098
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,879
Speaker 2: And and you'll read because people have a misconception of Jesus, right,

1099
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 2: turn the other cheek, this nice guy. But man, you

1100
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 2: brew to vipers. Can you imagine looking at religious leaders

1101
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 2: and saying you're you're you look great on the outside

1102
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 2: like whitewashed tunbs, but you're dead on the inside. Woe

1103
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 2: be to you. Well, did Isaiah speak of you? You

1104
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 2: draw nye to me with your lips, with your heart,

1105
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 2: and he just, I mean, he was bold when need

1106
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 2: to be bold. And that's the hard part. It's fine

1107
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 2: because also what happens is I call it reaction, and

1108
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: you know, somebody's doing something, I want to react, And

1109
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:40,240
Speaker 2: that's arrogance, right because you're you're guarding or you're defending,

1110
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 2: and oh yeah, well let me tell you this, and

1111
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 2: you want to text back. And so it's that it's

1112
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 2: that time of not reacting but responding and waiting on God.

1113
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:50,879
Speaker 2: And for most some people they know they just need

1114
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: to just put on the brakes. For other people, they

1115
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 2: need to step on the gas and start being a

1116
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 2: little bit more bold, you know. And that's one of

1117
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 2: the things we talked about earlier with the pulpits in America.

1118
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: You know how much that has shifted from from years ago.

1119
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: Now hold that we might come back to the pulpit,

1120
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: but so why wouldn't we be bold? In the opposite

1121
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: of boldness either could be cowardice or or fear right.

1122
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 2: You don't want to deal with it right now, I

1123
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: mean right like, I don't want to say anything. I

1124
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: don't want to deal with you know, let me just

1125
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 2: it's it's easy, easy to do for sure.

1126
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: I also think, like I asked myself, how much am

1127
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: I motivated by fear in my life? And it's so

1128
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 1: easy to succumb to that absolutely, which prevents somebody from

1129
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: being bold because it could be fear for a reputation,

1130
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: fear for a job, fear for whatever the kind of

1131
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: issue is. But the biblical solution to fear is in

1132
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: First John four eighteen. Perfect love cast out fear. And

1133
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: when I think about this, you know, one of the

1134
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: leading Just yesterday I was talking to students here by

1135
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: All about this one of the leading fears. It's like

1136
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 1: death and then it's like public speaking.

1137
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:01,439
Speaker 2: Yeah that's true.

1138
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 1: It's like always top three or top five, And it's

1139
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: like why because so many people are looking at me

1140
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be embarrassed or shamed in

1141
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: front of people. So that's where fear comes from. Fear

1142
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: is selfish, Love is self lists. Fear is self focused.

1143
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: Love is other focused. So in some ways, when I

1144
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: look at the church today, when we get overly defensive,

1145
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: and we're overly angry. I sometimes think we're acting out

1146
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: of fear, and some of those concerns are not illegitimate,

1147
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: whatever those concerns may be. But our reaction is looking

1148
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: at ourselves rather than asking what's the loving response to

1149
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 1: somebody else. So I've had different people call me out

1150
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: in different ways, and I always think, you know what

1151
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: you're thinking about yourself, rather than if I really want

1152
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: to persuade Sean to change or anybody change, this is

1153
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,479
Speaker 1: it about me? How do I speak in a way

1154
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: that this is best received? And so like, like I

1155
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: was a calm major here, and communication very simply put,

1156
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: it would be like a sender and it would be

1157
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: a message, and it would be a receiver, right, and

1158
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: the message is the communication. Well, most people have their

1159
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: idea and the message they want to send. This is

1160
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: the truth I want to convey, but they're not thinking

1161
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: about the receiver and whether or not the receiver will

1162
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: at least hear them. And the question is what makes

1163
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: somebody more likely to hear them. Sometimes it's somebody getting

1164
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: in their face and yelling at them and correct like

1165
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: sometimes that's the time. But that seems to me to

1166
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: be more the exception of the time, and there's often

1167
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: more of a relationship behind that that makes it happened.

1168
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: I try to ask myself, if I have something I

1169
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: think is true and I want somebody to hear it,

1170
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 1: how do I speak it in love? Because A that's

1171
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: actually loving somebody, whether they respond or not, I'm called

1172
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: to love somebody. But b it sure seems walls come

1173
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: down and they're more likely to hear it if I

1174
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: speak the truth in love. So I just I'm going

1175
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: to look at the church, I look at pastors today,

1176
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: I look at myself and I ask myself how much

1177
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: am I speaking out of fear, which is selfish versus

1178
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,439
Speaker 1: saying am I speaking out of love? And that's why

1179
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: I mean last point in this I'm rambling a little bit,

1180
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: but when people get nervous for speaking, part of my

1181
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: response is stop thinking about yourself. Just ask yourself, how

1182
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: can I love my.

1183
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: Audience about opinions?

1184
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: Because we're worried about opinions? And I go, well, how

1185
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: can I tell stories that help them? How can I

1186
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 1: make a PowerPoint that helps them? How can I actually

1187
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: help them? Then the focus shifts from me to others,

1188
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: and I think if we Christians would just stop focusing

1189
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: on ourselves and our fear inwardly and just say, how

1190
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: will people most likely hear the true man or Christ.

1191
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: I think we'd communicate very differently, and.

1192
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 2: This one might be helpful. That was a great point

1193
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 2: and it made me think of this for your listeners.

1194
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 2: You know, you'll have probably a pastor's listening, lay leaders,

1195
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 2: Christians of art. How I preach to a mass audience

1196
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 2: or whatever is a lot different than how I talk

1197
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: to an individual. Amen to that, so there's different dynamics people.

1198
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 2: I just need to be like, no, no, I'm don't

1199
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 2: be like I'm preaching, don't talk to an individual that way.

1200
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 2: When it's a mass, you have the advantage of not

1201
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 2: knowing what God's doing in their hearts, and people don't

1202
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: take it personally because there's a group of people. But

1203
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 2: when I'm talking to an individual, it's going to be

1204
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 2: obviously a little bit different. However, like you said earlier,

1205
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: there are times to really shoot people straight, when they're

1206
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 2: destroying their family, when they need to wake up. There's

1207
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 2: other times where you need to come up alongside and

1208
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 2: just listen to them speak the truth and love. But also,

1209
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, I would say airing on the side

1210
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 2: of grace. But also when I was younger, I did.

1211
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 2: I really was into just I just love like football coaches,

1212
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 2: like good teams. You know, Cowboys, I think it's Tom Laundry,

1213
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: laundry writer, and and Green Bay was Vince Lombardi. And

1214
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 2: just studying all these guys, I think I did it.

1215
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 2: I don't know why I did actually, but I realize

1216
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 2: all these great coaches weren't too nice all the time,

1217
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 2: were they. I mean, most most good coaches basketball down

1218
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 2: here at USC or UCLA basketball coaches, even football, you know,

1219
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 2: they pull out of you. It's inside of you. So

1220
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 2: they're really they're not like, hey, no problem, They're like,

1221
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 2: get back up. You don't do that. And so there

1222
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 2: is a different dynamic that takes place there. So again,

1223
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 2: as a past or what type of past or the

1224
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 2: calling that maybe I have or others habits that that

1225
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 2: coach to really challenge them and to really have them

1226
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 2: dig deep. Also like like Navy Seal podcasts, watching those guys,

1227
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 2: it's not it's uh, it's just how I'm bent. And

1228
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,479
Speaker 2: so my point was that there's not a one size

1229
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 2: fits all approach. It really depends on who the person is,

1230
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 2: your relationship with them. What is God wanting you to say?

1231
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 2: Going back to what I said earlier, the most important

1232
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 2: takeaway here, even to a cardinal home, a Lukewarmholm, a

1233
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 2: legalistic home, is to get time with the Lord. Spend

1234
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: time with him, open his word, praying, fasting, broken by him.

1235
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 2: Because because the problem we're the problem that many people

1236
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 2: are having because the fruit the spirit is not present,

1237
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 2: is because they're not filled with the spirit. So the

1238
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 2: more filled you are, the more fruit's going to come out.

1239
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 2: That's just that's a biblical truth, right, The love, the joy,

1240
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 2: the peace and contentment, but also the boldness that's all

1241
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 2: going to come out from the from the fullness of

1242
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 2: the spirit. And we're all leaky vessels, deal Mood said,

1243
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 2: So we have to stay underneath the fountain of living

1244
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: water every day. That's I hate to keep saying that,

1245
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 2: but that's where all of this. Or should I say

1246
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:09,919
Speaker 2: this to this person? When should I talk to the truth,

1247
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 2: speak the truth and love? What should I confront that

1248
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 2: when you're when you're with the intimacy with the Lord

1249
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 2: in that relationship is going to going to navigate these

1250
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 2: waters much more effectively.

1251
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm kind of end with this point. I

1252
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: think this is really helpful that you've identified kind of

1253
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: your lane, and you're drawn towards coach football, you're drawn

1254
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: towards Navy seals, which just fits your personality, your competitive nature,

1255
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: your a personality, your drive. But you also recognize that

1256
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that go, you know what

1257
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not the coach, I'm not the pastor coach.

1258
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm the pastor counselor exactly. Maybe I'm the pastor philosopher.

1259
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm the pastor business man. Your message, I guess

1260
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: two part question A. How do you balance out not

1261
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 1: just listening to the voices like I would imagine seal

1262
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: and football coaches would make you go, yeah, Shane, be tough, Yeah,

1263
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: she's speak truth. It's like, wait a minute, I'm filling

1264
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: myself with the voices I'm naturally inclined towards. I don't

1265
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 1: want to do that too much. And then what would

1266
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 1: you say to other pastors who are like, yeah, I

1267
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: don't want to listen to seals, I don't want to

1268
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 1: play football. That's not me. But I want to be

1269
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: a good pastor.

1270
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's it. Goes back to your DNA.

1271
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 2: You're wiring how God has called you, and I don't

1272
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 2: listen to those all the time. I balance it off.

1273
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 2: You do balance it out, Oh for sure, I like

1274
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 2: you know, I like the I don't know what a

1275
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 2: good example would be, but softer podcasts, right, just learning,

1276
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 2: growing in your faith and things like that, plus that

1277
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 2: time with the Lord. I've been getting up for twenty

1278
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 2: five years really early, you know, three to three thirty

1279
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 2: in the morning, and so I've got I've got three

1280
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 2: hours from here on out. Usually you know that I'll

1281
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 2: spend worship in the word prayer. It's dark out, nobody's up,

1282
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 2: and that's the time to really get refueled and reinspired

1283
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 2: and back into into into God's Word. And so also

1284
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 2: though I remember you said counseling, as some of my

1285
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 2: pastor friends like they love counseling and they don't like

1286
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 2: preaching or sermon prep. That's like, oh, that's the hardest

1287
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 2: thing for me. I love sermon prep and preaching. It's

1288
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 2: like that that's what fills me up. So you have

1289
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 2: to find out what fills up that tank and what

1290
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,479
Speaker 2: drained you. I think I got that from a book

1291
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,919
Speaker 2: leading on empty. It's about when pastors get burned out,

1292
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 2: and it said, find what fills you up, and find

1293
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 2: what drains you and try to minimize you know it

1294
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 2: drains you, and focus on what fills you up. So

1295
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 2: trying to find you know, exercise, of course, I mean

1296
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 2: just I think the physical how we take care of

1297
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: our body, affects the spiritual. Right. If I'm not disciplined physically,

1298
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 2: if I'm not disciplined physically, I'm not going to be

1299
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:49,479
Speaker 2: disciplined spiritually. So I think finding that balance of taking

1300
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 2: care of my body physically, especially as I get older,

1301
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 2: and then you know, balancing out what you listen to,

1302
01:04:56,760 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 2: the podcast who influences you? Be very careful social media nowadays?

1303
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 2: You know that, man. I mean some people they get

1304
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 2: caught up in all these conspiracy theories and yeah on

1305
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 2: this and they just get they.

1306
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 1: Just get lots drama of it and drama.

1307
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. We were not designed to be hit with all

1308
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 2: this information. And I don't think and.

1309
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 1: I think your point about you know, being filled up

1310
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 1: when you're empty. I only have so much emotional capacity,

1311
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 1: and when I spend it getting ticked on Twitter, I

1312
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: have less for my wife and less for my son,

1313
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 1: and it's just I've learned that, like you said, the

1314
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: older that I get. So let's kind of let's bring

1315
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 1: this back.

1316
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 2: Let me add this too. Yeah, I want to say

1317
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 2: it earlier, but one of the biggest things that has

1318
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:36,959
Speaker 2: really helped me. Now, let me clarify it because people

1319
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: are going to take it wrong, say you're not open

1320
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 2: for feedback, you're not teachable. But I don't really look

1321
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 2: at it. I don't good comments, and I don't look

1322
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 2: at YouTube comments or Facebook. I don't. I mean maybe

1323
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 2: one percent. But I have elders and deacons and a

1324
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 2: core group around me of a lot of people that

1325
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 2: will speak into my life. And so I don't know

1326
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 2: if this person is in Iowa in the basement of

1327
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 2: their mom trying to, you know, go off on me

1328
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 2: because they don't agree with some non essential or this,

1329
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 2: or my attitude or you're prideful? How do you? How

1330
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 2: do you know who I am? So I think we

1331
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 2: put too much into comments and likes and followers. You know,

1332
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 2: we get up. We have to look at Instagram to

1333
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 2: have followers, and even that can affect That's what's affecting

1334
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 2: our teenagers right now in our country, is is this

1335
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 2: this people pleasing and bullying get off social media. Doesn't

1336
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 2: matter what they say, they don't know you. Well, just

1337
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 2: surround yourself by those people who truly know you and

1338
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 2: love you. I won't listen to constructive criticism either, much

1339
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 2: from critical hearts. I want to make sure it's somebody

1340
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 2: who truly loves me, because there's enough criticism coming in

1341
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 2: from those who you know, truly Hey in that sermon,

1342
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 2: had that sermon you kind of you know you really,

1343
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 2: you know, overstep, you know, and so the elders will

1344
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 2: speak truth into my life as well. So we do

1345
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:52,640
Speaker 2: have those people. But I think just that social media

1346
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 2: constantly feeding that, you know, on Mondays, I turn it

1347
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 2: off and it's like I'm looking at my pocket like

1348
01:06:58,440 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 2: four or five times.

1349
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 1: And then you realize how like why our brains.

1350
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 2: Are so I read.

1351
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 1: I tried to read enough criticism to just say, do

1352
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 1: I need to pivot? It's just something I need to

1353
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 1: learn without spending too much time and energy on it.

1354
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: But I can think of a handful of YouTube videos,

1355
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: some Twitter posts, emails I've gotten that are a little

1356
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: bit more substantive. And I've always in every case when

1357
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 1: I feel like there might be something here, I have

1358
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: a board. I'll send it to people on my board.

1359
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: I've sent it to my son professors here at Talbot

1360
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 1: and just go. I've said a couple of times I

1361
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 1: don't actually have the emotional energy to watch all of

1362
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 1: this right now. I'm exhausted, But watch it. I only

1363
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: tell me if there's anything I really need to learn

1364
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: from on this and speak truth to me, and some

1365
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: helpful conversations have come out of that. Well, maybe let's

1366
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 1: just kind of sum up some of the key points

1367
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: in this conversation. I wish I had taken notes, because

1368
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: there's some principle here I want to remember. I'm going

1369
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: to go back through this, but it seems so some

1370
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: takeaways are. Number One, our boldness and our our energy

1371
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: is going to come from being in the word, truth

1372
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 1: and grace aside, be in the word, be filled with

1373
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: the spirits. Yes, it's okay to find our own unique wirings.

1374
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 1: Where there's John the Baptist, John the Beloved, and God

1375
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: has called us uniquely, we should be comfortable in terms

1376
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: of who God has called us Steward Steward Stewart, that

1377
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: is a good way to put it. But open to

1378
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: always growing and being challenged. Yes, What are some of

1379
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: the other key takeaways from this time?

1380
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 2: I think the word well, the word nice, like I remember,

1381
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:38,679
Speaker 2: I looked up it's it means pleasant and agreeable, and

1382
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 2: it's not always biblical. So you know, I want to

1383
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 2: be nice. Okay, that means I guess you'd be. It

1384
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 2: would depend on how you define it, right, But you're

1385
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 2: not always going to be pleasant and agreeable if you

1386
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 2: have to lovingly challenge someone. I mean, so, I think

1387
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 2: the idea is to err on the side of grace

1388
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:00,760
Speaker 2: and to be bold when God calls you to be bold.

1389
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 2: And I think most people know, we know what we

1390
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 2: need to work on, right, Like, I don't need to

1391
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 2: work on being silent. I mean, that's not my that's

1392
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 2: not my that's not my weakness. I need to work

1393
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 2: on not getting the last word in and being lovingly

1394
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 2: more gentle. And just because you, pastors also preach with

1395
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 2: their emotions, you know, I always say I do not

1396
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 2: preach a sixty minute perfect sermon. I guarantee my emotion

1397
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 2: is in there, my motives are in there, my perspectives.

1398
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 2: Sometimes even though we stick with truth all the principles,

1399
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 2: you know, you and manytimes, I like bang, why did

1400
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:43,320
Speaker 2: I go off on somebody like not a name necessarily,

1401
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 2: but just like critics or and and just realizing that

1402
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 2: working on those areas you know you need to work on.

1403
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 2: So some listening are quiet or silent, they don't want

1404
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 2: to say anything, they don't upset. Maybe God's calling them to

1405
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 2: to to be a little bit more bold, maybe sharing

1406
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,240
Speaker 2: scripture or lovingly challenging. For other of us, it's it's

1407
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 2: this could be a great call to repentance, to say, God,

1408
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 2: my heart is growing hard and callous. I've look at

1409
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 2: what Jesus said. You have sound doctrine to the church,

1410
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:14,680
Speaker 2: and you help people in this, but you've left your

1411
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 2: first love. I mean that was the model church right

1412
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 2: there and then but they left their first love. And

1413
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 2: so I think it would be a good a good

1414
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 2: call to remind people to repentance. Don't just get if

1415
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 2: something is triggering you in this interview, it's probably because

1416
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 2: you need to hear it. I mean, that's that's how

1417
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:35,760
Speaker 2: it works. I don't like they said that. I don't

1418
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 2: wish I wish or I wish Sean would be more bold. Well,

1419
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 2: it's probably because you need to work on being more

1420
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 2: loving or I wish Shane, it's probably because you need

1421
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 2: to be you, don't You know the people when they

1422
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 2: get it's like when you throw a rock into a

1423
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 2: pile of dogs, you know the one, the one that

1424
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,680
Speaker 2: barks is when you hit. And so these types of

1425
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 2: podcasts will will cause people to really think, and I

1426
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 2: would just encourage them to repent and get their heart

1427
01:10:57,439 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 2: right with the Lord.

1428
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:00,160
Speaker 1: This is really good is one I'm gonna go back

1429
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 1: through and pull out some of the principles and just

1430
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 1: think about a lot. And I think you're landing on

1431
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 1: a point that I believe that we're going to be

1432
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 1: living in this tension of grace and truth relationally with

1433
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:13,639
Speaker 1: people in our family. This is true with people where

1434
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: we work, true with people in our church and beyond.

1435
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: And if we're not living in that tension a little bit,

1436
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 1: then we're stale and we're not growing. Whether it's more

1437
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:25,879
Speaker 1: truth or whether it's more grace. But that's the formula.

1438
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:29,800
Speaker 2: And let me add before I forget, it's so important

1439
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 2: to be apologetic and keep relationships healthy. Like Sunday, for example,

1440
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 2: a guy I was twelve minutes, I twelve minutes before

1441
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 2: the service, and I'm running late to church right and

1442
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 2: he comes in. I was kind of like, oh, and

1443
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 2: so I went to him say, hey, sorry about that

1444
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:47,280
Speaker 2: was twelve minutes. Oh, no problem. And so you're constantly

1445
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 2: repenting and repairing and like, hey, I came across strong

1446
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 2: and I've apologized to my car. I said, hey, last month,

1447
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 2: I mean I came across really strong. I was upset

1448
01:11:55,120 --> 01:12:00,240
Speaker 2: at some things. And that transparency, that meekness, that uh

1449
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 2: that that because meekness is not.

1450
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 1: Weakness, Amen, I agree.

1451
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 2: Weak meekness is strength under control. You have the strength,

1452
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 2: but you're controlling it. That's meekness. Weakness is a complete opposite.

1453
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 2: So apologizing to people. I just apologize to my my

1454
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 2: uh my son a couple of days ago because I

1455
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 2: was on and about, hey, you need to start coming

1456
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:24,720
Speaker 2: to church more. Why and and you know, and it's okay,

1457
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:26,880
Speaker 2: I can see that understand always but not always trying

1458
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 2: to be the right one. You know, you're always the

1459
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 2: right one. You're always you Never you want to listen

1460
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 2: to them. You don't want to hear them having the

1461
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:35,760
Speaker 2: attitude of of of repentance and humility and say okay,

1462
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 2: I could own that we need to work on that.

1463
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 2: Let's you know, I apologize for that that keeps that

1464
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 2: keeps you very tender, and and you'll become more careful

1465
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 2: what you say, because you.

1466
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:48,639
Speaker 1: Know it's not fun to have to know, not at all,

1467
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 1: not at all. And in some ways this brings us

1468
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,839
Speaker 1: full circle that we need to speak truth more boldly

1469
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 1: than ever, because it's the truth that sets people free.

1470
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 2: Right.

1471
01:12:57,760 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 1: But my first question was tied to the death of

1472
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk. What we need and in some ways I

1473
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 1: just I can't shake it what Erica Kirk said offering

1474
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:11,639
Speaker 1: forgiveness within days. What is eleven days to the man

1475
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:18,680
Speaker 1: who murdered her husband, father of her kids. That's supernatural?

1476
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 1: In my book, it was there's a whole lot of

1477
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 1: people that shocked them and were like some people were

1478
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 1: offended by it. Well, okay, at least you saw the

1479
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 1: power of the Gospel of what that looks like. You

1480
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 1: saw it demonstrated clearly. So it's not either or. I

1481
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: think we need to be more gracious and more kind,

1482
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:41,759
Speaker 1: not nice, but kind and me than ever speaking truth boldly.

1483
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,679
Speaker 1: And may everybody who's watched this be challenged in one

1484
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 1: fashion or another, because I think that's what Christ wants

1485
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 1: us to do.

1486
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:52,280
Speaker 2: You know, and just to maybe on that point for

1487
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:56,400
Speaker 2: a minute, getting getting the full story on something. Like

1488
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:58,799
Speaker 2: many of us, I've done this before. I just comment

1489
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 2: on what I think I know and you learn later.

1490
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 2: So even trying to Kurk, a lot of people that

1491
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 2: had issues didn't really understand what he said in context.

1492
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 2: They would hear just little snippets of things, so they

1493
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 2: built an opinion. And now you see, you know, that

1494
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 2: whole thing is being attacked right now from conspiracy theorists

1495
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 2: and all this thing that breaks my heart. It's all

1496
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 2: over the unbelievable, and those people are not most of

1497
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 2: the people. There's no humility. You're not going to see

1498
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 2: humility in a lot of what they're they're saying and doing.

1499
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 2: It's all about likes and followers and get in. It's

1500
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 2: it's I don't know if it can be demonic to

1501
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 2: some degree because that the enemy is planting those fiery

1502
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 2: darts and it's feeding ego. That's what he does. It

1503
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 2: feeds ego, pride comings before a fall, and so you're

1504
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 2: not seeing a lot of humility, and that's what's happening.

1505
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 2: It's sad.

1506
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 1: Really appreciate you coming on and talking about this. This

1507
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:53,799
Speaker 1: is a great conversation. With time, we'll definitely do it again.

1508
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 2: And think biblically.

1509
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: How people follow all listen your sermons, follow your writing.

1510
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forgot. Actually all of my books are available

1511
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 2: as free downloads nice at the church website. Yeah, Westside

1512
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 2: Christianfellowship dot org. Westside Christianfellowship dot org. All I think

1513
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 2: there's thirteen books there. I just wrote one. I was

1514
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 2: on Jack Hibbs's podcast about quitting. I almost quit the ministry. Yeah,

1515
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 2: so I worked through that discouragement fear and things like that.

1516
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 2: But mainly they're Westside Christianfellowship dot org or Shaneidelman you

1517
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:26,360
Speaker 2: know on Instagram and Shane s A H, A and E.

1518
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:29,600
Speaker 2: And then I was named after Alan Ladd who was

1519
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 2: in the movie Shane. My parents told me when I

1520
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,680
Speaker 2: was younger, and then Idleman I D L E M

1521
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 2: an Shane Idelman. But yeah, I would love to hear

1522
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 2: from people. I'll read these comments from.

1523
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:41,519
Speaker 1: From Oh you committed yourself.

1524
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I once in a while, But you

1525
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 2: can't live off those things because.

1526
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 1: You're you're you're I get it.

1527
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:49,280
Speaker 2: You're too bold, you're too quiet too. It's like you're

1528
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 2: too political. You're not political enough. It's like you're tossed

1529
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:55,680
Speaker 2: to and fro by the opinions of people. So just

1530
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 2: being careful who influences you.

1531
01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:59,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, good word. Enjoy the conversation.

1532
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:00,640
Speaker 2: Thanks, yeah, thank you.

1533
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, give you a shake man way to end it. Hey, friends,

1534
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,439
Speaker 1: if you enjoyed this show, please hit that fall button

1535
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't

1536
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:12,720
Speaker 1: done this yet, and it makes a huge difference in

1537
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 1: helping us reach and equip more people and build community.

1538
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:20,559
Speaker 1: And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps.

1539
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to

1540
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 1: you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where

1541
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 1: we have on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual formation,

1542
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:33,719
Speaker 1: marriage and family, Bible and so much more. We would

1543
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:36,600
Speaker 1: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

1544
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 1: defend the Christian faith today and we will see you

1545
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:41,200
Speaker 1: when the next episode drops.