1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 1: joined to get my doctor Shiesh Pharma, and we're going 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: to be discussing or continuing our discussion about Biblical manhood, 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: Biblical masculinity and really the way I would phrase it 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: is the way to be a male disciple of Jesus Christ. 14 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: And today we're going to be looking at the work 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: or one work of a gentleman named Dale Partridge. Now 16 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: I don't know that Dale Partridge is overly influential in 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: this whole conversation, but the reason I wanted to address 18 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: his work is because I think it illustrates a trend 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: that I've seen in a lot of different work on 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: masculinity and maybe multiple trends, but the one that I 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: noticed when I first read his work was he's trying 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: to frame Jesus as the ultimate male, and in doing so, 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: he's reading back masculine character categories onto Jesus and I 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: think creating a problem that he maybe doesn't even realize 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: he's creating, which is, if male and female Christians are 26 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: all to conform to the image of Christ and Christ 27 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: is uber masculine, it seems to me that you have 28 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: to do one of two things. You either have to 29 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: be able to distinguish between what is faithful, humanly faithful 30 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: in Jesus and what is masculine, so that women emulate 31 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: the faithfully human part of Jesus but not necessarily the 32 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: masculine aspects of Jesus. Or you have to shoot for androgyny, 33 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: meaning that as women conform to the image of Christ, 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: they are going to become more and more masculine. Now, 35 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: in the context of his work, it's clear that he 36 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: does not want the latter. It's also clear that he 37 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: can't do the former, that there's no chance that you're 38 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: ever going to get the separation between. Okay, this is 39 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: where Jesus is being manly or masculine, and this is 40 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: where he's being faithful, and so to me, these alternatives 41 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: are there's a through line of those two problems in 42 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: almost every book on masculinity that tries to do this 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: with Jesus, tries to do it with other biblical characters. 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: And we'll see some of that as we go through 45 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: his work. So I'm just going to read a passage 46 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: and then Ashishua will kind of dive in and start 47 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: talking about this. I know there's a lot of points 48 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: to raise here, so we'll just jump right into it. 49 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: Here's a passage from one of his articles. Will link 50 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: this in the show description. I'd encourage you to take 51 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: a look at it. This is what he says. Quote, 52 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: Jesus was a man conceived by a virgin, born, biologically male, 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: raised by a carpenter, a boy wise beyond his years, 54 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: fully divine, and potently masculine. In fact, if you hate masculinity, 55 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: you will despise the biblical Jesus. He wasn't interested in 56 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: getting to know his feminine side, nor was he the 57 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: macho and chauvinistic domineer that some failing men have become 58 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: Jesus was the epitome of manhood, a stalwart in mission, bold, 59 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: obedient to the point of death, fearless in his proclamation 60 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: of truth, sacrificial in his acts of love, and resolved 61 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: to do his father's will. Jesus had forced authority and 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,119 Speaker 1: control in a way that marked him as virile and robust. 63 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: So I'll just start out and say a couple of 64 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: things about this Number One. When I read this, I 65 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: thought to myself, how is it that being stalwart and 66 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: mission bold, obedient to point of death, fearless in his 67 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: proclamation of the truth, sacrificial in his acts of love, 68 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: and resolved to do his father's will. How are any 69 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: of those related to simply being a man? Because when 70 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: I read that list, I would want my daughters, for instance, 71 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 1: my wife, women in the church to exhibit those exact 72 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: same characteristics, Like we don't want our we don't want 73 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: female Christians not to be stalwart and mission bold, obedient 74 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: to the point of death, fearless in the proclamation of 75 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: the truth, sacrificial, an actor at acts of love, and 76 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: unresolved to be to do the father's will. Right. So, 77 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: I think there's a real dichotomy here that he's setting up. 78 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: He's highlighting these things that and labeling them as characteristics 79 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: of manhood when they're really probably not that associated with 80 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: Jesus's maleness, right with Jesus's sex. 81 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, to be clear, none of those things that he 82 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: mentions are things I want to argue against, right, yeah, 83 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 2: men should be those things. Now what he means by 84 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 2: those I don't follow that train. Yeah, but I also 85 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 2: with you want to say, just people should be those things. 86 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: This is the life of receiving oneself from another. Yes, 87 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: nothing about that is this is an undefined phrase, but 88 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: probably my favorite undefined phrase just because of how cartoonish 89 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 2: it sounds. Potently masculine. Yes, I'm not sure what potently 90 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 2: masculine is as opposed to just masculine, but none of 91 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: them seem definitively potent other than maybe you want to 92 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: say potently human. To your point, yeah, And as he 93 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: begins to impact those and we can get into some 94 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: of the details of it, it's it's like he makes 95 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: the mistake of because Jesus came in the form of 96 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: a man, therefore what he does is a is a 97 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: model for being distinctly a man. Yes, and to a 98 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: point that you've made repeatedly, if he has done that, 99 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 2: and if that's what Jesus is doing, right, we think 100 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: of Paul saying imitate me as I imitate Christ. Okay, 101 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 2: Paul was a man as well, So is he talking 102 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: only to men as well? What does that mean for 103 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: women in the church? What is what's being commended to 104 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 2: not just necessarily the church, but women in general. Nothing 105 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: is being commended to. 106 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: Them, apparently. 107 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of that, right, 108 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: I think his leap is unjustified. There's nothing in the 109 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: text that justifies reading it in such a narrow gendered way. 110 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: There's nothing in the text that leads me to believe 111 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: that because the person in question is in fact a male, 112 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: therefore what follows is distinctly applicable only to males. Right, 113 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: that's a leap, But the implication is even worse, and 114 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: that then there is therefore no. 115 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: Model for women. 116 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm not sure that you know, just to 117 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: extend what Paul saying that when he says imitate me 118 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: is immitate Christ. It's not clear to me at all 119 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: that that's it. That's an admonition towards men only. 120 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: No one, I mean you could walk through, you could 121 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: walk through the Book of a Philippians. Right, A paphroditis 122 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: set up as a model, you know, gesturing toward this 123 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: sort of self sacrifice that Christ does that we see 124 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: in the in the Philippians two one through eleven, Right, 125 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: Paphrodite is Timothy Paul himself. These are all models of 126 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: the sort of self sacrifice that Jesus is demonstrating in Philippians, 127 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: and Paul is giving these examples almost building up to 128 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: that they're all men. I don't think that's on purpose. 129 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: I think it's coincidental. I think what Paul is saying is, 130 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: look at this sort of self sacrifice, and this is 131 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: where I've seen this thus far, and they happen to 132 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: be men. I don't think it's limited to males. And 133 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: what I would say, just to make clear sort of 134 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: my position on this, I don't have a problem with 135 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: someone saying there are many things that male Christians could 136 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: learn from the life of Jesus that would be specifically 137 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: applicable to male disciples. I think because men and women 138 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: embody the world differently, because we interact with social structures differently, 139 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: because they're a whole slew of things that you know, 140 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: our existence as men differ from the existence of women. 141 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: I think there are unique things that we can learn 142 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 1: different ways of our embodying, things like being stalwart and 143 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: mission or obeying the father's will or what have you. 144 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: There is a differentiation there. My problem is that he 145 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: isn't exactly doing that. He's saying that because Jesus is male, 146 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: he is now the picture of manhood, and all of 147 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: these things, these good things that Jesus does, are affiliated 148 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 1: with manhood. And I want to reverse that and say, no, 149 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: Jesus does a lot of good things as a human 150 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: and as males and females. We now need to learn 151 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: from those as we seek to sit under the authority 152 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: of Christ as his disciples. And so that may end 153 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: up looking a little different for men and women, but 154 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: it isn't because Jesus was male. 155 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 2: Right to your point of the list that Paul gave 156 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: that happened to include just a group of men, Yeah, 157 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 2: I mean that there's more to be said there. I think, right, 158 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: we're talking about a culture that it's been pretty well researched. 159 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: Did happen to have a distinct understanding of what kind 160 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: of mobility was possible? 161 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 1: Right? 162 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: Like physical geographic mobility, and generally speaking, men had that 163 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 2: opportunity in a way that women didn't. But nothing within 164 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: what Paul said is assuming that Paul affirms that kind 165 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: of organization, no right. In fact, as we've talked about before, 166 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 2: if Paul exists as someone with no ability whatsoever to 167 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: change the social order, and no ability whatsoever to exercise 168 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 2: any sort of political instrumentality for a new kind of society, 169 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: then all he has is his disposal is to take 170 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: what is already existent, which is a world in which 171 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: there is a greater geographic mobility possible for men, and 172 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 2: then employee loosely speaking, right more in a disciple forum, 173 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: not in an employer employees sort of sort of a way, 174 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: but to employ these men that have the opportunity to 175 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: continue in the sort of ministry that he's talking about. Right, 176 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that in other places, think for instance, 177 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: the Book of Colossians, that he's not also commending women 178 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: who are deeply important within the functioning and establishment of 179 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: a church. Additionally, I think it's worth noting an important 180 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: feminist critique of that sort of thinking that Partridge is giving. 181 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: And I realize that for some people the moment you 182 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: hear the adjective feminist, to the critique, it's liberal, throw 183 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: it away, and I'd like to encourage holding off on 184 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: those sorts of prior judgments and to hear it through. 185 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 2: But the feminist critique is, oftentimes we see this sort 186 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: of language of a commendation of humility that seems to 187 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: be distinctly driven towards men, because we live in societies historically, 188 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: almost universally, where men are the ones in positions of 189 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: power or control or dominion, and women have already, by 190 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: social expectation and formation, been put into a submissive, servile mode. 191 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: So that then when we say a counterbalance to that 192 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 2: is be humble, it's not really directed at those who 193 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: don't even have the opportunity to exercise the kind of 194 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 2: individual and social power to have to be told be humble. Right, 195 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: And so what feminist scholars will often point out is 196 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: then that notions like be humble directed towards a woman 197 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: register in a very different way. In fact, probably often 198 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: aren't precisely applicable the way that we think about it 199 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: when we say men, be humble. Now, why this is important, 200 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: I think it is fairly simple, and I'll use my 201 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 2: kids as an example. You know, every so often, as 202 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: most parents have to do, you have to refresh house rules. 203 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: And one of the rules that I find myself having 204 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: to refresh is we're going to listen and obey right away. 205 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: That's an important tagline right away. And when I say that, 206 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: I'm almost always looking at my oldest son. Now I 207 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: have four kids. Yeah, it's not as though I'm not 208 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: wanting that to be applicable to the other three kids, right, 209 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: But everyone in the room knows why I'm looking at 210 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: my oldest son when I say that. The other three 211 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: just don't have the same struggle with that rite away 212 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: piece versus my oldest son, who's more inclined to say, oh, 213 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: I'm happy to listen, but these ten things first. Yeah, No, 214 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 2: it's time for dinner. Get to your seat. Anything else 215 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: you have to offer once we start eating, you can 216 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: say it right. The others seem to get that. 217 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: A little bit better. 218 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that it's a rule only for the 219 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: one right. So the parallel here is that with the 220 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: feminist critique, with the way that or against the way 221 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: that Partridge is reading, he seems to kind of miss 222 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: the ups and downs or the valleys that go with audience. 223 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: Even if we were to grant him, which I'm not 224 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: sure that we can, Even if we were to grant 225 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 2: him the sort of gender distinction and who these statements 226 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: are being made towards. There are social patterns at work 227 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: and historic familial environments at work that mean that sometimes 228 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: you do have to say listen and obey right away 229 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: and direct it more specifically at one person or one 230 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: group of people, even if you mean that for everybody. 231 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of what's at stake with 232 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: the feminist It's not that the feminist scholars saying the 233 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: kind of virtues that are at play with you. For 234 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: some feminists would say let's do away with humility as 235 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: a virtue. That's a longer conversation. But the core, I 236 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: think at players, the sorts of things we're trying to 237 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: get at are missed. If we're saying, if we're if 238 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: if we're saying that these things belong to a woman's 239 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: place already, then to direct that commendation towards a woman 240 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: misses the larger social pattern understood. Yeah, right, So I 241 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: think that's a kind of texture that Partridge would benefit from. 242 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, he would benefit from a lot of different texture. 243 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: I think it's I think one of the more is 244 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: satisfying aspects. And I did read his book. So we're 245 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: referencing an article just because it's a little easier on 246 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: the podcast. But I did read his book. There isn't 247 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: a lot more argumentation there that I would find compelling 248 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: in his book than I find in his article. I 249 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: think what we see is that there's this constant sort 250 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: of assumption of what masculinity is, and then a reading 251 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: back out of the Biblical narratives and finding masculinity in 252 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: various places, but then really missing what you would call texture. Right, 253 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: so you have I'll give it. For instance, in his article, 254 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: he talks about this idea that the newly created atom 255 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: was sexually male but intrinsically how's the qualities of man 256 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: and woman? That is nowhere in the Biblical narrative, you know. 257 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about how many lines there 258 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: are in Genesis even describing this man, right, you have 259 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: maybe three verses, none of which really deal with any 260 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: sort of characteristics of Adam. Adam is a fairly flat character, 261 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: quite frankly, the entire time he's on the scene. The 262 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: only time we actually see him respond to something is 263 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: when the woman is made. And I think that it's 264 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: those kind of assertions that he's drawing on that start 265 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: to border on their ridiculous that they are just so 266 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: far out there and evidently used to advance his particular 267 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: argument with no particular substance behind them, Right, That is 268 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: really deeply problematic of what he's doing. Now, we've said 269 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: before interpretation is difficult, and there are possibilities for interpretation. 270 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: Then there are probabilities for interpretation, and there's a range 271 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: of things that could be right, some that might be right, 272 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: and some that seem more likely than others to be right. 273 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,479 Speaker 1: And then there's fantasy. Then there's just total conjecture. And 274 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: I think this is total conjecture. This notion that the 275 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: man prior to the creation of woman housed all the 276 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: qualities of male and female makes absolutely no sense for 277 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: one and it has no biblical basis for it. I mean, 278 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: the whole reason for creating moment is because it wasn't 279 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: good for man to be alone. 280 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 2: Right, That's a key point to bring up here. Right, 281 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 2: if all of the qualities of male and female are 282 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 2: within atom, arguably, what we're putting into the text is 283 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: this notion of self sufficiency. But the whole thrust of 284 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 2: Genesis two that leads us to that kind of climax 285 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: of God putting out him to sleep and drawing forth 286 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 2: the woman. Yeah, is a move against self sufficiency. It's 287 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: not good for him to be alone, that's right, and 288 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 2: for him to see that. One of the things he 289 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 2: does is he names animals and notices by the way 290 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: that the animals are not alone. It's showing a sort 291 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: of neediness. It's showing something that's missing from him, not 292 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: in a sinful way, but in a sense of what 293 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 2: truly is full and complete is the being in and 294 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,959 Speaker 2: with and for another, but also receiving oneself from another. 295 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 2: And that I think just the logic of that passage. 296 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 2: Again talking about probabilities of interpretation, but the logic of 297 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: that passage flies in the face of all of these 298 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: things are present in atom No. Actually, that's the opposite 299 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: of the implication and the fall. In Genesis three, it's 300 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: worth noting that we've talked about in another series is 301 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: a movement towards self sufficiency. Wrongly so right, Neither one 302 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: of these people, Adam or Eve, is to is to 303 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 2: see themselves in a godlike manner, as self sufficient, but 304 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 2: both of them ultimately move in such a way as 305 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: to do that. 306 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: I will say I also find, in addition to that 307 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: particular passage where he's making this assertion, I also find 308 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: all of his biblical evidence related to why Christ is 309 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: particularly exhibiting the boldness, fearlessness, courage, you know, those kind 310 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: of things that he lists. He goes through and tries 311 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: to sort of lay these out, citing various biblical passages 312 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: for different things to demonstrate Christ's masculinity in these, but 313 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: there is no reference to masculinity in any of them 314 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: other than Jesus being male, which again I think there's 315 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: a collapsing here that we should just name that being 316 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: male doesn't automatically mean masculine. And that's a real tension here, 317 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: I think in this piece as well, is that there's 318 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: a tendency to think that if you're male, you're going 319 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: to be masculine. That's obviously not the case, given that 320 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: he talks about the effeminate church, and you know, like 321 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: there's a way for men to be effeminine, and so 322 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: you have to import these other categories back in on this, 323 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: and again we're back at that sort of problem of 324 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: can you really distinguish when Christ is being faithful as 325 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: a human that male and female should both emulate in 326 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: their own unique ways, or is Christ being masculine? In 327 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: which case, what do you do when you're telling women, hey, 328 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: emulate Christ? He never deals with that dynamic. And like 329 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: I said, even the passages that he cites, I don't 330 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: disagree that they demonstrate Christ's fearlessness or his boldness or 331 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: his what have you. The tension for me is that 332 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: they don't point to his masculinity. So I don't know, 333 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: and any thoughts on. 334 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: That, Yeah, agreed, He's importing this notion of masculine. And 335 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 2: it's important to distinguish here what we're trying to say 336 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 2: when we say, quote masculine, masculine is a is a 337 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 2: social gender term, right, It has a content of what 338 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: does it mean to fulfill this? So you can be 339 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 2: male but not masculine in so far as whatever it 340 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: is that entails big masculine, you just don't fulfill. Right. 341 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 2: So that's the real question at play here. And not 342 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: only do we not get a content of what that 343 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: masculine is and the text, we also don't get any 344 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 2: indication that that's even in the framework of the authors 345 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 2: of the text. I think it's an important point that 346 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: you just raised as well, that the New Testament and 347 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 2: really the Old Testament both depict the covenant communities that 348 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 2: are at play in the position of bride. Yeah, and 349 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 2: bride in this case in terms of the church. With 350 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 2: the Old Testament, Biblical Israel is made up of men 351 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: and women. It's made up of old and young, it's 352 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: made up of middle aged, right, It's a whole spectrum 353 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: of people. And this is a point that I've tried 354 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 2: to make to students, and I find it it really 355 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: actually gets them to pause and maybe hurts their brain 356 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 2: a little bit to think about it. But if we're 357 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: going to play the game of masculine feminine, if we're 358 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: going to play that, then we have to consider the 359 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: strangeness of the call for a body, a covenental body 360 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 2: that is made up of men and women, to be 361 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: identified in the whole as feminine. Yeah right, Yeah, Now, 362 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 2: I don't think we should be playing the masculine feminine 363 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: game and game in quite this way, right, But we 364 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 2: should pay attention if we're going. 365 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: To write, right. 366 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 2: But it's worth pointing even if we set aside the 367 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: masculine feminine game, and we just point out the church 368 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 2: is called the bride of Christ even independently of that 369 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: masculine feminine social sort of circumscribing of roles and formation, 370 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 2: men are in fact called to the kind of submissiveness 371 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 2: that's often placed socially upon women. From reading the text, right, 372 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: the larger thrust, so I'll draw from the Theologiannandre Bloche here, 373 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 2: the larger thrust of for instance, Ephesians five, which Partridge 374 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 2: appeals to where it says, men love your wives as 375 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 2: Christ love the Church. Is also to point out that 376 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: the larger image here is that covenant community of church, 377 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: because that covenant community of church now places you. Most importantly. 378 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: He uses the word theodramatically, which just means within the 379 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: larger forming of the story of God as the bride 380 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 2: of Christ. So everything that's given there for the man 381 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 2: in that particular setting is meant to be an image 382 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 2: of what the man himself is supposed to do before Christ. Yeah, 383 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 2: and that's before we even talk about the larger setting 384 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 2: of Ephesians five, where Paul first speaks of each of 385 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: these people, male and female, submitting to one another, right 386 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 2: and that's before we consider that in some ways the 387 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 2: ask upon men was actually greater than the supposed ask 388 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 2: upon women, as submit to your husband's right. Yeah, men 389 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 2: are now put in this position of a kind of 390 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 2: obedience all the way to the point of the cross. 391 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: Yes. 392 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: And by the way, remember ultimately you're part of the bride, 393 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 2: which means really this is a picture just of getting 394 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 2: to the real issue, which is submit to Christ, who 395 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 2: was the one who, as the male already was the 396 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: one who submitted. Right, He's submitted to the will the Father. Yeah. 397 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, not my will, but yours be done. 398 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 2: So through and through on so many levels, this idea 399 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,959 Speaker 2: of submission and obedience actually doesn't give you a picture 400 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 2: of masculine or feminine. It just gives you, as you've said, 401 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 2: as we've said, being a human being and actually even 402 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: giving you an image of the inner life of God's self. Right, 403 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: the son submits to the will of the Father. The 404 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: spirit submits as the voice or the breath of God 405 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: going forth, and even in that moment the Father gives 406 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: all that the Father has to the sun. Right, Like, 407 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 2: there's mutual acts of submission all the place. So to 408 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 2: be human and to imitate to imitate policy, imitates Christ. 409 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 2: It's just a giant list of whether you're male or female. 410 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 2: It's to live for the other and to receive oneself 411 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 2: and fullness from the other. 412 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think we've just as you say that, 413 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: there's something about what does it look like for us 414 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: to be in union with one another, serving one another, 415 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: mutually submitting to one another. And this is the context 416 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: of Ephesians five as well, five fifteen through twenty one 417 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: talk a lot about these things. Somehow we've gotten caught 418 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: up in the whole who should lead kind of conversation, 419 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: who's ultimately in charge at this moment? And how do 420 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: women fit within the overall structures of the church. And 421 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,959 Speaker 1: I just think that's a It's not an unimportant conversation, 422 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: right I wouldn't, I wouldn't trivialize it. But what I 423 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: would say is, I think we've detached it, to coupled 424 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: it in many ways from this conversation that we're having 425 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: right now, which is we're all supposed to be a 426 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: mutual submission to one another. I said this to one 427 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: of the guests we were talking about. It was Kristo mccurlan. 428 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: She wrote a book on authority, and we were talking 429 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: a little bit about it. She was going through First 430 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: Timothy two and just talking about some of the interpretive 431 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: challenges there, and she talked about, you know, the why, 432 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: you know, why wouldn't we follow the clear teaching subscripture 433 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: kind of thing, And my comment was, you know, it's 434 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: not unclear, right, A clear passage is Romans twelve ten, 435 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: outdo one another and showing honor. Right, if we want 436 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: a clear passage to follow Romans twelve ten is just 437 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: for me, it's hard to be we are to outdo 438 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: one another and showing honor. If we start there in 439 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: our conversations, a lot of these things they may not 440 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: go away. I don't think the interpretive questions go away, 441 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: but they're dealt with in a much different manner. If 442 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: we're trying to out do one another and showing honor, 443 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: that is not And I honestly I think some people 444 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: would hear that and they'd be like, oh, that's just 445 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, that's a feminine idea of some sort. Right, 446 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: you're just trying to cultivate empathy and compassion and just 447 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: let people do whatever they want to do. No out 448 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: doing one another and showing honor doesn't mean that people 449 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: get to do whatever it is that they want to do. 450 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: It means that we bear with one another in ways 451 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: that are leading each other to become more conformed at 452 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: the image of Christ. And so to me, it's like, 453 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: if we could focus in on some of those clearer passages, 454 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: we'd have much less trouble dealing with some of these 455 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: interpretive issues. Then it seems like we really do. People 456 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: tend to get mad, they tend to get anxiety about 457 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: these things. They tend to have frustrations. I mean again 458 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: sort of at the end of his article here he 459 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: goes back into the effeminate infiltration of the church as 460 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: as seemingly the underlying problem for which the masculinity of 461 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: Jesus is the solution. And I sit back and I 462 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: say to myself, is the effeminate infiltration of the church 463 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: really the church's biggest problem? Like it is what we 464 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: need or manly are men in the church, And then 465 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: the church's problems would really be solved. You know, I 466 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: don't have any problems saying, sure, I wish there were 467 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: more men in the church. I wish there were more 468 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: godly men in the church. But it's not so that 469 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: we could solve an effeminate problem, right, don't you just 470 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: want more folk in the church. On some level, it 471 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: just feels like we're this has gotten so goofy. And 472 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: there's one point in this. I'll just read this letter, 473 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: this little section, because if you just read this part, 474 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: I think people would actually agree, right like I would 475 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: agree outside the context of this article, I would agree 476 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 1: with this statement. He says, coffee shop and bookstore Christianity 477 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: is no match for prison cell and angry mob Christianity. 478 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: The truth is Church history is saturated with Christians being tortured, dismembered, 479 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: eate and shot, hung racked, box buried, and burned. For 480 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: Christ might be a little overkilled. The timidity of the 481 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: current church, which submits to government overreach and complies with 482 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: laws enforcing unbiblical supportive sexual sin, will be costly. Now 483 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: I wouldn't phrase it that way, but I get the 484 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: point right that even if we read through something like 485 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: the Book of Revelation, the Letters to the Seven Churches, 486 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,719 Speaker 1: what's being pushed on there is, Hey, Church, don't compromise 487 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: your faith in the midst of worldly pressures. It's something 488 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: around them. And so do we need a resilient church 489 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: that is willing to suffer the consequences of not compromising 490 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: our faith. Of course we do, right. I think that's 491 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: an of course. But what I think he's trying to 492 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: do is say that, of course, yes, we need an 493 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: uncompromising faith, and to have that, we need more men. 494 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: That's where I sort of jump off the train. You know, 495 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: to have an uncompromising faith, we need to be more masculine. Again, 496 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: That's where I jump off the train. I don't buy 497 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: that next leap, because I don't see that that is 498 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: what the Bible is really encouraging us to do and be. 499 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: The Bible is really encouraging us to be like Christ, 500 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: not in the manliness sense that he's arguing, but in 501 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: the faithfulness sense that we see in Christ, that we 502 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: see in Paul, that we see in the you know, 503 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: the Hall of Faith in Hebrews eleven, right, all these 504 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: different places right where these pictures of faithfulness are held 505 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: out for us, regardless of male and female. That's what 506 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: is necessary. But I think he's trying to sort of 507 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: solve a problem it's not actually there. And maybe the 508 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: better way to say that he's trying to solve a 509 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: problem that he's uncomfortable with as opposed to solving the 510 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: problem that we really need to address. 511 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: Is it fair to say that the problem he sees 512 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 2: is really a political issue, and let me set up 513 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 2: why I'm asking it that way. Yeah, he sets it 514 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 2: up as an issue of masculinity. I can think back 515 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 2: twenty five years ago as as a teenager going to church, 516 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 2: not from a church tome, but having gone to church 517 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 2: and it was Father's Day and hearing basically the same 518 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: message about the need for men to be men, and 519 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: books being passed out that I think I still have 520 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: somewhere buried that was on a very cringeable book. To me, 521 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: I won't mention the name, not worth it. 522 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: But it's a. 523 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: Call that I've been hearing for a long time. As 524 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 2: I've studied, I've seen this call really dates back to 525 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 2: well before my lifetime. It's a pretty common call with 526 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 2: an American Christianity for men to be men in the church, 527 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: to be church the church. That the world is being 528 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 2: effeminized and the church is being effeminized with it. I 529 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: look around and I don't see that, to be honest. 530 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,240 Speaker 2: I look at what the biggest earners at the box 531 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: office have been over the last decade decade and a half, 532 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 2: and they're superhero movies that emphasize a particular image, specifically 533 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 2: of the men. Right for every Wonder Woman in Black 534 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: Widow that you have out there, there's at least ten 535 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 2: Superman's and Doors and Iron Men and Batman that are 536 00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 2: bulging muscles. I think back to the late eighties when 537 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 2: when the modern superhero genre in film form was when 538 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 2: it began, and it began with that Michael Keaton Batman 539 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: movie and the great, the great criticism was, I don't 540 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 2: think Michael Keaton can be Batman. He's too small. He 541 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:18,439 Speaker 2: does he's he's short, and he's not muscular, right, Yeah, 542 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 2: I look at the comic book world that that that 543 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 2: came out of, I mean, unrealistic muscles bulging out of 544 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 2: these very manly men. I look about look at the 545 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: film industry that preceded the rise of the comic book 546 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 2: movie as the as the Supreme, and it's the Arnold 547 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: Schwarzenegger Sylvester Stallone archetype. 548 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 549 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 2: Before that, it was the the Western and the spaghetti 550 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 2: Western with Clint Eastwood. If anything, the image of the 551 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: man has become more ripped and more exaggeratedly masculine. You 552 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 2: look around at you know, clothing and cologne and shaving commercials, 553 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 2: and like, yeah, that's an image of men. 554 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: That it's very muscular, right, right, right. 555 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 2: And then when I look within the church and I 556 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 2: see that this, this phenomenon of men be men predates 557 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 2: my lifetime, it's not clear to me what it is 558 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 2: that he sees going on that he's harping against, until 559 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 2: I say, oh, I think this is politically motivated. I 560 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 2: think there's a particular desire to have a particular ordering 561 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 2: or control or center of locus for the country or 562 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 2: for culture or civilization or however he wants to put it. 563 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: And that image seems to be driving him. Because the 564 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 2: sorts of markers he's pointing to culturally and within the church, 565 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 2: I just don't see that as existing. 566 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's interesting that he referenced is 567 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 1: the government overreach and complies with laws enforcing unbiblical support 568 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: of sexual sin. Now the government overreach. He's writing this 569 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, so sort of post COVID and 570 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: a closeure church. You can't gather those kind of things right, 571 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: which I know is contentious in the Christian community. I 572 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: went to a church that didn't meet physically and we 573 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: did just fine. I think that there needed to be 574 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: much more grace and sort of a Romans fourteen fifteen 575 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: attitude about how church is dealt with that. But it 576 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: turned into a point of machismo. And so I can 577 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: totally see your point here where there are these political 578 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: arrangements that I think are difficult. The only place I 579 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: would expand that sort of political notion is that I 580 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: would say it's not political necessarily on the American stage, 581 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: but I think it's also political within the church. And 582 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: maybe that's what you mean too, in the sense that 583 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: you know there you know, I, yeah, maybe there are 584 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: more women in the church than men. That's a point 585 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: that he raises in the article, and I didn't look 586 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: at that research. I didn't I didn't check that out. 587 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: My recollection of the last time I looked at it 588 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: is that there are more women than men in the church. 589 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: But if you look at the leadership of churches, I'm 590 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: going to go ahead and bet that there are more 591 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,760 Speaker 1: men involved in leadership at churches than there are women. 592 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: That the number of women lead pastors is a fraction. 593 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: It's almost like the superhero movies. Right, You've got Black 594 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: Widow and Wonder Women, and then the rest are males, 595 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: you know. And so I think that what we have 596 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,479 Speaker 1: is largely that in churches, and that would extend down 597 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: into more of the invisible leadership structures of the elder boards, right, 598 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 1: and a lot of that's driven by the complementaryan perspectives 599 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: and those kind of things. And so it's just difficult 600 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: for me to understand why he thinks this is such 601 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: a problem, given that if you look across the last 602 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: fifty one hundred years, probably the entire history of America, 603 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: you've had men leading churches the entire time. You've had 604 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: men leading denominations the entire time. Like, I'm not sure 605 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: this is a woman problem and a feminization problem so 606 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 1: much as it is a the church does not have 607 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: I would say a masculine feminine problem, Like we don't 608 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: have a bad mix of that. What we have is 609 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: we have compromise, we have disagreement, we have lack of formation. However, 610 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: you want to say that we have a discipleship problem, 611 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:55,399 Speaker 1: and we don't. We have a compromise problem. That's sort 612 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: of the way I would diagnose it. And so all 613 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: of this that he's frustrated with. With regard to, you know, 614 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: the effeminization of the church, I tend to agree with you. 615 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: I don't see it. What I think I resonate with 616 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: is the notion of timidity. I can get my head 617 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: around that one, right, that the church may be too timid, 618 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: may be too willing to compromise in order to be 619 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: more comfortable. I could see that one. But I don't 620 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: see that as an effeminate characteristic. I just see it 621 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: as unfaithfulness. 622 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 2: Agreed. Yeah, that's a being formed into the image of 623 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 2: Christ issue issue. It's a eating from the tree of 624 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 2: self sufficiency, the knowledge of good and evil issue. Right. 625 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 2: It's which is, by the way, not a male female issue. 626 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 2: Both did it, It's not. It's not clear to me 627 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 2: that it's a masculine feminine issue, and it's worth noting 628 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 2: as a footnote anyway that I think far more men 629 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 2: have left the church because they don't live into these 630 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 2: masculine ideals and they don't find a place for themselves 631 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 2: in the church then have left the church because the 632 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 2: church has mauve walls whatever mav is. As Driscoll said, yeah, yeah, yeah, 633 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 2: forgive me everyone out there. I don't know what MAV is. 634 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: I will just say sort of as we close this up, 635 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: I think the diagnosis is really an issue, right, I mean, 636 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: we've made sort of a big deal about this and 637 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: the mischaracterization I think of faithfulness for masculinity, this sort 638 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: of merger of Jesus being male. So then Jesus is 639 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: ultimately the ultimately masculine and we have lessons that we 640 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: can learn as men from Jesus being masculine that will 641 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: help us retake and reclaim a church that has become feminized. 642 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: I think that entire diagnosis and the entire narrative is 643 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: distorting because, in part if you really take a second 644 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: and think about it, what's on top of all of that, 645 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: what's really driving this whole project forward? It isn't Christ, 646 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:20,919 Speaker 1: It's masculinity. And it's a particular notion of masculinity. Right. Yes, 647 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,839 Speaker 1: they've merged that with Jesus be masculine, like Christ was masculine. 648 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: Well what did it mean to be that Christ is masculine? Well, 649 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: let me show you. And then it goes into this 650 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: sort of spiral of well he was this, and he 651 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: was this, and he was this. I mean, even the 652 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: reference of Jesus was a carpenter. Okay, but I'm going 653 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: to go ahead and bet that the women of that 654 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: day and age were pretty hands on, rougher and tougher 655 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: women than what any of us are today. Right, unless 656 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: you're sort of a blue collar worker who works with 657 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: his hands, works with her hands every day, if you're 658 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 1: an office worker or white collar kind of person, it's 659 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: almost a guarantee that these people had a rougher life 660 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: than you have, right, And so even that reference, you 661 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:12,439 Speaker 1: kind of sit back and you're like, well, of course 662 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: Jesus would have worked with his hands probably. I mean, 663 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: we have reference to him being a tecton, and so 664 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: he was a builder of some sort that wasn't manly, 665 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: right in a masculine sense. It was probably a male 666 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: dominated procession, But that didn't make it masculine, just meant 667 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: that that's what men did in that day. And so 668 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: I think we've got to leave room for I guess 669 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: my bigger point is when we start applying this layer 670 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: of masculinity over the top of Jesus, that's really what 671 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: we're doing. We're putting it over the top of Jesus, 672 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,720 Speaker 1: and as Christians, we should be really uncomfortable with that 673 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, some other standard other than 674 00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,720 Speaker 1: Christ is driving the way we think about Jesus. That's 675 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,919 Speaker 1: that to me, is the biggest problem with this sort 676 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: of line of thought is that it sets up masculinity 677 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 1: as a standard outside of and separate from discipleship for 678 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: men in the church to live up to. And so 679 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,760 Speaker 1: I think his diagnosis of the problem and the solution 680 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: he suggests is only going to lead the church down 681 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: darker roads, not necessarily better roads. Agreed, All right, Well 682 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: let's leave it there. This was a discussion. Like I 683 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: said of Dale Partridge's article, Again, we're not trying to 684 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 1: pick on these folks, but they do offer helpful examples 685 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: of the way that these things can be misread. And 686 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: so we'll link the article in the show notes, encourage 687 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: you to take a look at it, and as you do, 688 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:59,479 Speaker 1: just really read it with a critical I saying, does 689 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: anything he's saying necessarily relate to masculinity? And if you 690 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,720 Speaker 1: had to after you read the article, could you actually 691 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 1: describe what masculinity is? And I think you'll you know, 692 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: people who read this honestly will have to say no 693 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 1: to both like they won't be able to construct masculinity. 694 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,799 Speaker 1: They won't know exactly what masculinity is. And most of 695 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 1: the passages he addresses certainly could be applied to women 696 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: or men, they aren't specifically masculine. And so he's one 697 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 1: of the gentlemen that does this. I think there are others, 698 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: and so this is something I would say we need 699 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: to watch out for, not only in masculinity feminine conversations, 700 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: but probably in a whole host of other areas as well. Anyway, 701 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: thanks Ashish for being here, thanks for this conversation, and 702 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: thanks everybody for listening. We'll catch on the next episode 703 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,719 Speaker 1: of thinky Christian. I just want to take a second 704 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: to think the team at Life Audio for their partnership 705 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go 706 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith 707 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,800 Speaker 1: centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, 708 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,839 Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.