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Speaker 1: From the birthplace of radio's greatest era. Now from New

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Speaker 1: York It's Radio Night Live with Kevin McCullough. Unlike anything

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Speaker 1: else on radio today, it's a front row seat for

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Speaker 1: great information with today's leading experts. Travel with a third

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Speaker 1: generation travel icon Linda Purillo, The Fox News Medical All

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Speaker 1: Stars featuring doctor Mark Siegel, Doctor Martin McCarey, doctor Jennet Nischwatt,

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Speaker 1: the Og doctor Nicole Sapphire, Legal analysis from former prosecutor

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Speaker 1: and court journalism superstar Imran I'm Sorry, and Christine Nicholas,

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Speaker 1: the quintessential heartbeat to New York hospitality, all joining a

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Speaker 1: legendary broadcast pro Kevin McCullough on a mission unlike any other,

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Speaker 1: united to bring back New York Now Live from Studio

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Speaker 1: one to eleven. Hears Kevin McCullough.

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Speaker 2: Well, don't look now, it's Radio Night Live and glad

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Speaker 2: to have you with us. Kevin McCollough is my name,

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Speaker 2: And when I say we, I mean that guy right there, Imron,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, who's had a combination of factors that has

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Speaker 2: occupied his time, not the least of which is a

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Speaker 2: newborn baby and a lot of stuff at work. But

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Speaker 2: he is back and Imron, it's good to see you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Kevin, it's good to be back.

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Speaker 4: I'm excited to chat about the law with you. It's

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Speaker 4: been a few weeks now.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've gone legal stupid since you've been gone.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's like if I have a little bit

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Speaker 2: of like a little Imron hit each week, then I

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Speaker 2: feel like I'm smarter. But anyway, it's good to have

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Speaker 2: you back. So lots of things going on since the

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Speaker 2: last time we spoke that we weren't at war with Iran,

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Speaker 2: and there was questions about you know, War Powers Act

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Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff that we could have

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Speaker 2: gotten into. But today's let's do the breaking stuff because

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Speaker 2: there is this big jury verdict against Big Tech that

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court has said is you know they're gonna

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Speaker 2: they're going to decide here on this, and you've been

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Speaker 2: all over media talking about it.

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Speaker 4: Tell us what happened, right, sure, So, so this is

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Speaker 4: actually a trial verdict that's coming out of Los Angeles,

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Speaker 4: and it's a a.

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Speaker 2: Means Supreme Court. I just meant there was a verdict.

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Speaker 4: Guess yeah no, but but you may have some foreshadowing there, Kevin,

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Speaker 4: because you know, who knows if this percolates even out

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Speaker 4: of the state realm and up to the Scotus at

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Speaker 4: the end of the day through the appeal process. But first,

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Speaker 4: on the trial level in state court in LA a

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Speaker 4: jury rendered a verdict for an aggregate of six million

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Speaker 4: dollars for an individual plaintiff. They were calling her Kaylee.

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Speaker 4: She was going by Kailee during the lawsuit. And it

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Speaker 4: was against the big behemoths of social media, Facebook and

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Speaker 4: Instagram under the umbrella of Meta. And you know, Mark

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Speaker 4: Zuckerberg's testified during this trial. So this was a historic

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Speaker 4: trial mainly not only because of the fact that Zuckerberg's

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Speaker 4: in court. They're testifying along with We're.

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Speaker 2: Going to have to think that a lot all the

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Speaker 2: stuff that Meta does, I doubt Zuckerberg, like you know,

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Speaker 2: ninety nine ms out of one hundred even shows up

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Speaker 2: in court. So the fact that he had to testify,

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Speaker 2: that's a big deal.

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Speaker 4: Right right, Yes, And you know this is sort of

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Speaker 4: being called a landmark case, a bell Weather case, perhaps

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Speaker 4: social media's big Tobacco, Big Pharma moment, in terms of

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Speaker 4: being held accountable as to certain practices and business practices

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Speaker 4: and in a nutshell.

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Speaker 3: What it was was that.

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Speaker 4: This plaintiff brought a lawsuit against Meta saying that she,

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Speaker 4: as a youth, was targeted by their algorithms by the

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Speaker 4: way they designed the social media platform, and was sort of.

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Speaker 3: You know, there was a constant stream of.

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Speaker 4: Content for her that she became addicted to social media

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Speaker 4: and that caused her psychological harm and damages.

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Speaker 3: And why this case was unique.

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Speaker 4: Was because it got over the hurdle of US Code

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Speaker 4: Section two thirty, which insulated social media platforms for so

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Speaker 4: many years from liability, saying they can't be held accountable

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Speaker 4: or libel in the court of law for content on

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Speaker 4: their platform, especially that which is posted by third parties

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Speaker 4: and users.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: But this got over that because it was retooled in

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Speaker 4: essence as a products liability lawsuit saying that there was

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Speaker 4: a defective design here that targeted youth and caused these problems.

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Speaker 4: And it's piggybacking Kevin on another verdict that came out

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Speaker 4: of New Mexico that was brought by the New Mexico

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Speaker 4: State Attorney General against Meta, and in that case, a

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Speaker 4: three hundred and seventy five million dollar verdict was rendered

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Speaker 4: by a jury and that was just on Tuesday of

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Speaker 4: this week also again for similar conducts. You know, it

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Speaker 4: was a consumer safety and rights lawsuit and they got

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Speaker 4: hit with that verdict. Now this is these are you know,

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Speaker 4: they're large numbers, but really in the grand scheme of

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Speaker 4: things there, it's somewhat pennies for.

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Speaker 3: Massive uh, you know, a massive company like Meta, which

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Speaker 3: is you know, in the billions of network.

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Speaker 4: But it's it's it's important from a legal aspect because

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Speaker 4: there has not been any sort of actions or accountability

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Speaker 4: from a legal standpoint for these social media platforms. Uh.

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Speaker 4: And now this is sort of a landmark case and

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Speaker 4: there's other litigation out there in the ether, Kevin, both

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Speaker 4: federal and state across the country where they'll be looking

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Speaker 4: at this case as precedent. And I don't want to

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Speaker 4: get you know, you know, too far ahead, but you

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Speaker 4: can be short. And the attorney through Meta have stated

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Speaker 4: that they intend to appeal.

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Speaker 3: They disagree with the verdict, and.

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Speaker 4: The appellate decision will have ramifications too once those decisions

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Speaker 4: come out.

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Speaker 2: Well, and it's the precedent issue is really big because

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Speaker 2: if that turned into a class action suit of Facebook users,

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Speaker 2: you're looking at billions and billions and settlements eventually, because

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Speaker 2: you've got millions, you have hundreds of millions of users.

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Speaker 2: So I mean it would be one of those things

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Speaker 2: where if pretty much and you know that, there will

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Speaker 2: be a slip and fall firm somewhere out there signing

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Speaker 2: people up saying hey, let us get you a piece

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Speaker 2: of the of the METAPI. Do you think you were?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 2: And who knows where all of that would lead. But

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Speaker 2: let me let me go back for some clarifications. Section

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Speaker 2: two thirty is that the debate over whether or not

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Speaker 2: social media is a content provider versus a neutral plantm.

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Speaker 4: Right right in that's this right, that's the and it

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Speaker 4: has shielded these providers because it.

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Speaker 2: Was shielding the providers when we didn't really know much

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Speaker 2: about algorithm and how algorithm interacted with content. See I

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Speaker 2: think I think that changes the equation a little bit

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Speaker 2: because if the algorithm is now selecting for you, feeding

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Speaker 2: you things based on the content itself, they're not just

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Speaker 2: a neutral platform anymore.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, and right now, Section two thirty has been around

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Speaker 4: for a while, Kevin right, at least in technology years,

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Speaker 4: right where technology evolves so fast. Look what we're dealing

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Speaker 4: with with AI and the way that's rapidly progressing, and

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Speaker 4: the law is not keeping up with the technology. Which

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Speaker 4: is why Section two thirty of the nineteen ninety six

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Speaker 4: Communications Decency Act right where it did shield the providers

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Speaker 4: from third party actions or content that was posted outside

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Speaker 4: of the control of the social media platform or company.

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Speaker 4: H that was at a time when we didn't have

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Speaker 4: all this content being spewed out at you. If you

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Speaker 4: remember social media from an earlier sort of standpoint or phase,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about MySpace, we're talking about friends. Like early

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Speaker 4: era social media, it was it was more so content

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Speaker 4: driven by the user versus now all these targeted ads

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Speaker 4: and algorithms that you deal with and pop ups where

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Speaker 4: you know, you're you're scrolling on Instagram or you're on Facebook,

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Speaker 4: and you are inundated with this content based on whatever information,

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Speaker 4: uh they are extracting as to your search so you know,

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Speaker 4: search terms on Google or you know, there's that sort

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Speaker 4: of theory that oh, you're talking with a friend or

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Speaker 4: a loved one about something and of all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: you see for it right exactly. So it's a different era,

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Speaker 4: it's a different age. Section two didn't necessarily keep up

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Speaker 4: with that. But that's why you have sort of the

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Speaker 4: laws a living, breathing thing where it's deriving not only

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Speaker 4: from the statute or the written word in our laws,

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Speaker 4: but also the way they are interpreted and handed down

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Speaker 4: by judges and juries.

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Speaker 3: And that's what we see here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and applied to very very very real changing events

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Speaker 2: on the ground in real time. Lots more I want

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Speaker 2: to ask you about related to this story. It's fun

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Speaker 2: to have Imron back. It's Legal Night. It's Radio Night Live.

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Speaker 2: Don't go anywhere from New York. It's Radio Night Life

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Speaker 2: with Kevin McCulloch. All right, welcome back. It's Legal Night,

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Speaker 2: and that means Imron, I'm sorry, is in the Chief

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Speaker 2: Prosecution's chair here at Radio Night Live. Kevin mccallough, glad

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Speaker 2: to have you as well. Today a jury verdict being

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Speaker 2: handed down meta and YouTube major rulings over addictive design

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Speaker 2: harming minors. People are going to argue is this a

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Speaker 2: good thing? Is this a bad thing? But this case

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Speaker 2: alone was six million dollars to one user last or

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Speaker 2: this Tuesday, just this week, a New Mexico court finding

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Speaker 2: three hundred and seventy five million dollars in damages against

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Speaker 2: social media on similar grounds, and we were just discussing

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Speaker 2: the importance of this imron when we're talking about content

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Speaker 2: that is algorithmically designed. I have quite a bit more

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Speaker 2: experience with this than I did even three months ago.

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Speaker 2: We have a little music collective that we've started, and

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Speaker 2: none of us are in the same spot. So I'm

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Speaker 2: in New York, our lead vocalist is in Kentucky, are

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Speaker 2: one of our main producers in Nashville. The other one

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Speaker 2: is in la And then we've got a keyboard guy

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Speaker 2: that adds some stuff and he's in Alabama. So we're

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Speaker 2: literally across the country. But as we've put these projects

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Speaker 2: together and we've released them on Spotify, I'm learning a

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Speaker 2: lot about the Spotify algorithms and how they look at

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Speaker 2: the substance of content. They look at the esthetic of content,

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Speaker 2: and in music it's you know, sound, so you're dealing

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Speaker 2: with sound files, you're dealing with those types of things.

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Speaker 2: But the algorithm is constantly and there's so much written

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Speaker 2: about this. The constantly is the algorithm is constantly testing

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Speaker 2: content against content to see what makes a good match.

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Speaker 2: And if they find, you know, a good spot for

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Speaker 2: a song, maybe a song that leans more towards jazz,

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Speaker 2: and so it starts to push it naturally to jazz curators,

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Speaker 2: whereas the pop stuff goes to the pop and the rock.

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Speaker 2: And you see how that works in just the audio

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Speaker 2: version of what is in essence a social media network

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Speaker 2: that being Spotify on Instagram. At the same time, we

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Speaker 2: set up a page for the band or the group,

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Speaker 2: and I've got my hard news page that I try

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Speaker 2: to manage, and then I've got my personal page that

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Speaker 2: I interact with friends and relatives on. And in each

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Speaker 2: one of those, if you go to Instagram and you

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Speaker 2: go to the search page, you put in whatever you

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Speaker 2: see what they're pushing towards you in the in the

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Speaker 2: whole page that's sitting under the search bar, so just

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Speaker 2: when you pull it up for that account. So if

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Speaker 2: you go to the t Collective's search page, you see

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Speaker 2: Charlie Pooth and Taylor Swift and Katy Perry and all

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Speaker 2: these musicians that are there because it's a it's a

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Speaker 2: music group that mostly interacts with music content. And I've

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Speaker 2: never put any of this stuff into the actual system.

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Speaker 2: It's all figured it out on its own and is

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Speaker 2: serving now me those different veins and on my news page.

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Speaker 2: I get every conspiracy theory, every thing that's related to

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Speaker 2: the most controversial, you know, cataclysmic news things going on,

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Speaker 2: and in my personal space, I get a lot less

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Speaker 2: of like that kind of you know, really hardcore, divided,

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Speaker 2: clearly defined algorithmics type stuff. And it's much more related

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Speaker 2: to stuff I've talked with someone about or we've you know,

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Speaker 2: done those other things. So it's you can really see

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Speaker 2: it with just bare eyes that what's happening here is

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Speaker 2: totally conceivable. But in the likelihood of this case, it

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Speaker 2: could be very damaging, depending on you know, what the

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Speaker 2: algorithm is deciding about you and who you are.

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Speaker 4: Right certainly, and also in the particular context of this litigation,

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Speaker 4: when is dealing with minors right where the mind is

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Speaker 4: so malleable, and you know, if a minor somehow finds,

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Speaker 4: you know, in their algorithm or the content something disturbing

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Speaker 4: or or you know, which is inappropriate, but now it

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Speaker 4: starts multiplying itself.

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Speaker 2: Every time you look on it, you get four more

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Speaker 2: things fed.

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Speaker 3: Your way exactly exactly, So that's what you know.

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Speaker 4: The concept in this lawsuit was that the design and

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Speaker 4: the sort of the technology behind the algorithm and the

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Speaker 4: targeted content and also the ability and tendency of you know,

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Speaker 4: placing repetitively certain content right when you're scrolling or whatnot

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Speaker 4: before minors is something that lends itself to harm. And

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Speaker 4: this particular plaintiff was able to convince this jury that

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Speaker 4: she was harmed due to.

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Speaker 3: That the aspect of that content.

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Speaker 2: That was the harms that she claimed in her in

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Speaker 2: eating disorders, per pressure suicide, what was it?

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Speaker 4: So it was a slew of emotional distress damages, right,

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Speaker 4: psychological harm right, And I believe you hit on some

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Speaker 4: of those right now, Kevin.

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Speaker 3: So you know that she was alleging, and that was.

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Speaker 4: Of course put before the jury in the form of

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Speaker 4: medical evidence, but then substantially was the expert testimony about

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Speaker 4: the technology itself. So I expect, as you noted before,

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Speaker 4: that this will now spurn on potentially the floodgates of litigation,

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Speaker 4: with people now seeing that they can make a claim

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Speaker 4: that could be either grasped by the jury and get there,

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Speaker 4: meaning that it survived muster and motions to likely dismiss

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Speaker 4: or summary judgment, and a judge allowed it to go forward,

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Speaker 4: and a jury heard that evidence found it compelling enough

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Speaker 4: to award an individual plaintiff claiming these claims and claiming

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Speaker 4: these damages, you know, six million dollars in damage in

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Speaker 4: an aggregate.

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Speaker 2: So I'm curious about this. How long has this case

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Speaker 2: been alive? When did they first file? And how long

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Speaker 2: did it take to get to the verdict?

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Speaker 3: Kevin, I'm not sure the final date.

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Speaker 2: Would it be unusual for it to take more than

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Speaker 2: a year or two years?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, so I was going to tell you base on.

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Speaker 3: Let me just I don't.

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Speaker 4: Practice in LA, but I could tell you that in

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Speaker 4: New York. I would imagine the dockets are you know,

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Speaker 4: have the same sort of hef to them. And when

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Speaker 4: you have a hefty docket, meaning the amount of cases

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Speaker 4: pending in court is going to be backed up. So

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Speaker 4: this could have been and I'll try to find the answer.

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Speaker 4: We could maybe come back in a later segment and

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Speaker 4: just you know, let our listeners know.

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Speaker 3: But I would imagine it's been a few years in

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Speaker 3: the making, Okay.

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Speaker 2: The reason I ask is because if you noticed within

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Speaker 2: the I would guess probably six to nine months. I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing this everywhere now, I'm seeing it on the social media.

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing it on the commercials, like during the Super Bowl.

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Speaker 2: For the social media, I'm seeing it on TV ads,

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing it on streaming ads, on like Hulu and

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Speaker 2: those kinds of places. But it seems like all of

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Speaker 2: them have gone very very hard into now setting up

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Speaker 2: child safe accounts. Yes, as though they kind of anticipated

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Speaker 2: that something like this was going to was going to

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Speaker 2: come their way. Now, right on what level will they

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Speaker 2: have to have because it seems to me like there's

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Speaker 2: also going to be some intellectual property stuff that's going

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Speaker 2: to come into play on this, and they're not going

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Speaker 2: to want to give up their super secret, you know,

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Speaker 2: technology for all of the social media to share. And

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Speaker 2: yet if we're going to make something that's safe for

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Speaker 2: kids everywhere, it's like they're all going to there's going

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Speaker 2: to have to be some sort of uniform to how

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Speaker 2: this works. But what do you do for minor accounts?

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Speaker 2: Do you just like not let the algorithm work on

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Speaker 2: accounts that are under the age of you know, eighteen.

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Speaker 4: I think, and I do have the answer now, well,

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Speaker 4: you know, I looked it up, so it was filed

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Speaker 4: October around October twenty twenty two, so you know, it

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Speaker 4: took that long for it to get to Core and

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Speaker 4: you hit a great point. So first, how how do

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Speaker 4: you answer? You know, I'm not a I'm not a

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Speaker 4: computer programmer, but I would imagine if they have the

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Speaker 4: ability to make so many of these target ads and algorithms,

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Speaker 4: they have.

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Speaker 3: The ability to dial it back, Yeah, turn them off, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, turn them off, dial it back or someone you know,

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Speaker 4: when it deals with an account logged in as a minor.

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Speaker 4: And one of the you know, aspects of the defense

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Speaker 4: during this litigation by Meta was just that I think

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Speaker 4: Mark Zuckerberg testified as to some of the child safety

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Speaker 4: controls or parental controls for minor accounts that Meta had implemented,

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Speaker 4: you know, on their platform.

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Speaker 2: And trying to say, we're trying to be good here,

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Speaker 2: We're trying to work.

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Speaker 3: Right right, you know. And I think though, you know,

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Speaker 3: when you had a jewelry listing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, hold this thought, because we got to take our break,

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Speaker 2: and when we come back, we're going to get into this.

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Speaker 2: He's iron I'm Kevin, fascinating discussion state yere.

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Speaker 3: Jeffy Joy.

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Speaker 2: And now I'm back to Radio Night Live Yours a color.

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Speaker 2: Literally one of the fastest hours of radio I do

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Speaker 2: each week because it is just so fascinating when Imron

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Speaker 2: and I are able to be together for legal night. Imron,

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Speaker 2: thank you again for all that you've been doing for

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Speaker 2: the last few months, getting your newborn taken care of

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Speaker 2: and all your important cases, but sparing time for us

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Speaker 2: is very special. So thank you. And on what a

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Speaker 2: momentous day, because this verdict out of LA against big

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Speaker 2: tech could actually be very very historic and crack the shield,

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Speaker 2: if you will. On this thing called section two thirty,

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Speaker 2: we'll get into a little bit more of all that.

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Speaker 2: But before we were going to the break, Imron, you

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Speaker 2: were about to make an additional point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think you know the jewelry looking at this,

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Speaker 4: you know, I would imagine I don't know the sort

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Speaker 4: of the makeup of that jewelry, but I would imagine

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Speaker 4: there were parents on that jewelry, because I know I

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Speaker 4: would want to be it. As an attorney for the

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Speaker 4: plane tip, I'd be looking for parents, you know, who

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Speaker 4: have children who may be engaging with social media. And

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Speaker 4: I can tell you from I have a ten year old.

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Speaker 4: Aside from the infant the baby, I have a ten

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Speaker 4: year old and a six year old, and I certainly

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Speaker 4: even the six year old, but the ten year old.

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Speaker 4: You know, she's now interested in you know, tablets, even

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Speaker 4: like a child phone, which has access to YouTube and

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Speaker 4: things like that. Certainly she doesn't have a social media

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Speaker 4: account or anything like that, but still, you know, YouTube

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Speaker 4: kids and all this stuff which has all that content

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Speaker 4: is all, you know, is something that kids are watching

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Speaker 4: these days. And I can tell you I'm constantly concerned

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Speaker 4: that the content that either you know, my daughter and

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Speaker 4: my son are watching is not appropriate or you know,

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Speaker 4: just mindless sort of dribble that is being in sort

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Speaker 4: of you know, two minutes or less increments and it

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Speaker 4: just moves on to the next sort of.

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Speaker 2: You're a good dad, that's why you worry about it,

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Speaker 2: because you actually do care about your kids. Sadly, there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of household where parents are not there

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Speaker 2: and so the kids just have access to the stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know what the situation was in this

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Speaker 2: case in LA, but you know, parents, you've got to

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Speaker 2: own some of the responsibility on this. I would say

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Speaker 2: from a moral standpoint. I'm not talking about financial but

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Speaker 2: I'm saying from a moral standpoint, it's way more the parents'

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Speaker 2: responsibility than it is the platforms. To know that your

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Speaker 2: kids are on the platform. But from a standpoint of

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Speaker 2: I also have three kids that are a little bit

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Speaker 2: ahead of yours. There are eleven, thirteen, and fifteen, and they,

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Speaker 2: you know, they all have access to online on some level.

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Speaker 2: None of them have a single social media account, but

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Speaker 2: they are dabbling with YouTube a little bit. On my

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Speaker 2: middle is he's a movie maker. He wants to make movies,

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Speaker 2: so YouTube is how he can show him to his friends.

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Speaker 2: But he's got a kid's account. The other two, my

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Speaker 2: sixteen year old, is not on social media yet. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if he'll ever be. I don't think he

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Speaker 2: wants to be. I'm afraid he's going to become the

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Speaker 2: unibomber or something like. He's so math and science and

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Speaker 2: private and quiet all the time. But I'm glad that

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Speaker 2: he's not, you know, that interested in it. But my daughter,

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Speaker 2: who is the youngest, that's the one I'm concerned that.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's there's going to be dangers out there,

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Speaker 2: and I think that the digital frontier is a more

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Speaker 2: dangerous place in some ways than the physical world that

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Speaker 2: they live in because of the easy access that people

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Speaker 2: have to them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, absolutely, you know, And the comment I'm sure

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Speaker 4: the defense. You know, I don't know every argument that

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Speaker 4: was made in court by meta, but I would have

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Speaker 4: imagined there were to be a defense that there's a

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Speaker 4: certain responsibility of this plaintiffs her parents right to have

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Speaker 4: you know, been a buffer to all that content and

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Speaker 4: being responsible and making sure she wasn't accessing all that content. Right.

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Speaker 4: But the jury in that case, I am sure you know,

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Speaker 4: came to this conclusion sort of in the similarity with

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Speaker 4: big tobacco, you know, the opioid crisis, with big pharma

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Speaker 4: that you know, these big corporations may have not been

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Speaker 4: looking out for the common good of their consumer or

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Speaker 4: you know, people out there are weighing the risks and

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Speaker 4: benefits to their actions or their product versus the potential

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Speaker 4: harm all in, you know, in.

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Speaker 3: Order to make a profit.

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Speaker 4: And I bet you that resonated with that jewelry because

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Speaker 4: we've seen that in the other corporations or industries.

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Speaker 3: I should say that were held accountable.

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Speaker 4: But you know, the victory could be kevin short lived

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Speaker 4: because if it's taken up on appeal and it's reversed,

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Speaker 4: then that's setting precedent on the contrary.

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Speaker 2: Right, then you have a target for the supremes to

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Speaker 2: weigh in eventually because you have a divided set of rulings.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting about the section two thirty thing,

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Speaker 2: and we at Salem have discussed this because this thing

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Speaker 2: keeps rearing its head like every four years. And I

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Speaker 2: want to go back to Facebook and the Obama campaigns

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Speaker 2: of his two presidential runs. They kind of figured out

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Speaker 2: the algorithm and they did a huge voter outreach via Facebook.

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Speaker 2: And when Zuckerberg was asked about an unfairness aspect of whatever,

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Speaker 2: he said section two thirty, Section two thirty, I'm just

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Speaker 2: I'm just a platform. You know this is we're We're

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Speaker 2: not a content provider. Trump turns around does the exact

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Speaker 2: same to the opposite benefit in twenty sixteen, and the

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Speaker 2: whole other side of the political landscape is starts screaming

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Speaker 2: about you know, how come he's allowed to do this

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah blah. Same thing. We're we're just

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Speaker 2: a platform. We don't have any control over it. Even

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Speaker 2: though there was they were starting to implement an algorithm

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Speaker 2: in which certain ads could be targeted to certain places

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Speaker 2: easier than they had been in the past. So fast forward,

437
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: there four more years, and you've got every social media

438
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: platform on the planet d platform Trump because they're saying,

439
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: we're content providers, we have a responsibility to only provide

440
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: responsible journalism and responsible stories, and he's irresponsible and he's

441
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 2: a danger and threat to society, and so we have

442
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 2: to take him off, which I think they all lost

443
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 2: both pr and legal credibility and making that argument because

444
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: for the last fifteen years they had just been screaming

445
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: Section two thirty the whole time, and that brings us

446
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 2: to he gets re elected, and they're all kissy, kissy,

447
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 2: you know, make nice. We don't want to make the

448
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: president mad. And it's this two thirty thing has really

449
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 2: gone back and forth in some pretty dynamic pendulum swings.

450
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: And we'll come back. I get your thoughts on that.

451
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 2: It's Legal Knight not going anymore.

452
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 3: What a little MOONLIGHTE can do.

453
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: It's radio night Life, yours Kevin mccullor, what a little moment.

454
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back, It's Legal Night. He's Imron, I'm Kevin, and

455
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: what a fascinating conversation. But Imran I just recounted the

456
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: two thirty debate, if you will, which has reared its

457
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 2: head nearly every four years in an election cycle based

458
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 2: on who wins the White House and what the other

459
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: side has to say about it. In Zuckerberg spent he's

460
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: had to spend a lot of time talking about things

461
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: that he was doing or wasn't doing to make sure

462
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: that his platform was okay. But does this section two

463
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 2: thirty things survive any further because it seems like if

464
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 2: you can manipulate the algorithm, you're losing the argument that

465
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: you're not a content at least manipulator. And so maybe

466
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 2: you're not an originator of content, but you're manipulating who

467
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: sees it and how.

468
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I was I think section two thirty it's

469
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 4: ripe for either revision and you know, certain stats tell.

470
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: Us what it actually says so that we are or

471
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: tell us what it actually means.

472
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 4: Right, So in a nutshell, you know, let's just meta

473
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 4: or any social media provider Twitter not the same thing. Yes,

474
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 4: cannot be found libel for the content that is posted

475
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 4: by users, right.

476
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: So party users originating content in their own accounts is

477
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: not the responsibility of the corporation is basically what they're saying.

478
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 4: In a nutshell, that's what it stands for, right, And

479
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 4: it makes sense in many ways because typically under the law,

480
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 4: you can't be you aren't necessarily libel for the independent,

481
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 4: intentional acts or words of another right. Right, And that's

482
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 4: always been a way a corporation, even an employer, or.

483
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: Well, if you think about it in the like the

484
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: real world, like you have all these businesses on a block,

485
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: and a satan worshiper wants to buy the middle shop

486
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: of the shopping strip, you know, the I guess the

487
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: landlord could have some say over what it is or

488
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 2: what it isn't, but he's not really. I don't care

489
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: if your shoe salesman or a deli owner or whatever. Like,

490
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 2: you just want my property and I don't have. I'm

491
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 2: not responsible for you know, your what you sell or

492
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 2: how you go about it in that sense, and this

493
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: is that sense in like the digital space, every user

494
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: is kind of like its own little shop.

495
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, in many ways, but right, And that's where

496
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 4: there's a there's a struggle from a legal standpoint of

497
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 4: how to handle this because you're weighing so many different factors, right,

498
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 4: just traditional theories of liability for acts of another right.

499
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 4: Then also First Amendment considerations are largely at play here

500
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 4: and going forward now because it's an evolving technology in

501
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 4: so many ways.

502
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 3: Right even with AI, right now, AI.

503
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 4: The fact that you can manipulate one's image or likeness

504
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 4: or words to create content what seemingly could be a

505
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 4: tribute it to someone when it's completely false, or the

506
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 4: likeness of another that is also expanding this sort of

507
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 4: great area of how the law treats.

508
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 3: Technology and evolving technology. So who knows.

509
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 4: Section two thirty may be repealed, it may be amended

510
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 4: or supplemented in a manner to sort of address these issues,

511
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 4: but they're also you know, maybe increased accountability for the

512
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 4: social media platforms as to the harm that can be recognized.

513
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: It's obviously starting to come to fruition with these two

514
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: rulings this week. Right here's the thing that I here's

515
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: the thing that I struggle with because I don't know

516
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: how I feel about this issue, Like I really I'm

517
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: torn about it, don't There's not a clear benefit or

518
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: winner one way or the other. Because I do think

519
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: that it is unfair to hold someone else for a

520
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: third party's actions. But in the pursuit of making money,

521
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: if you choose to start uffling the deck, so to speak,

522
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: which is what an algorithm basically is it's like it's

523
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: like a card shuffler. You've got all these different things

524
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: and it's like we're putting it through and then we're

525
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: dealing out to you know, whoever's there. It's you start

526
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: to even if it's just technological and you're not even

527
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: you're not even overseeing. I think a lot of algorithm

528
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: just takes place because the system is fed with the

529
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: search terms and then it delivers to where those search

530
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: terms are tied into, so you don't you may not

531
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 2: even have human oversight of what the algorithm's actually doing,

532
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 2: which is a could be a problem, But I still

533
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: don't think that necessarily Mark Zuckerberg is responsible for a

534
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: certain outcome if he if he did not have you know,

535
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: anything directly involved in making the decision for it. The

536
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,239
Speaker 2: decision seems to me to be the the kind of

537
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: moral quantifier. And if you if you have an auto

538
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: made its system making all of the decisions, man, you

539
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: could be really up a bad place, really easily, because

540
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: you know that that automated system may not have a

541
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: moral code, may not have the ability to have a

542
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: moral code.

543
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 4: No, absolutely, And I think that's where subscrutiny into the

544
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 4: technology itself may be necessary and the you know, social

545
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 4: media platforms. They want to do that now independently because

546
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 4: let's just say, with this case, it may you know,

547
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 4: signal that there could be liability there and then you

548
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 4: know they're not going to want to be constantly facing litigation,

549
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 4: you know, down the road.

550
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: What does your gut tell you? Does this go anywhere

551
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: on appeal or well, do you think it'll be? First

552
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: of all, do we know what circuit it would be

553
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: appealed to? Do we know anything about the makeup of

554
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: that court? And would that have do you think any

555
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 2: kind of impact on how they would look at this?

556
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, so it's a staatecase, right, so it would

557
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 4: actually be appealed up to the highest appella court of California.

558
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 4: But that would you know, on a federal equivalent, that

559
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 4: would be with the Ninth Circuit.

560
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, and which you know, But.

561
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 4: How would it be handled on appeal? It's it's it's

562
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 4: hard to say. It's really the strength of the arguments

563
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 4: to get over the Uh, what was a prevailing and

564
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 4: winning argument here that the design of these platforms were

565
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 4: is sort of designed in a way to target miners

566
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 4: and then just you know, shoveth of.

567
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: This case is the fact that it that it cracked

568
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: through that barrier.

569
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the reason why I cracked through that barrier

570
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 4: because it was a it was a different sort of

571
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 4: theory of liability, right, which is the way they design, uh,

572
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 4: and that like really the algorithm. So it's it put

573
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 4: a spotlight on that and how it can affect.

574
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 3: Miners and children and and also adults.

575
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: Also.

576
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 4: I'm sure there'll be cases, you know, and there may

577
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 4: be cases already out there that doesn't even don't even

578
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 4: necessarily deal with mine.

579
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: Is she gone into technology law at this point? Because

580
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: this is going to be this is going to be

581
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: such a fruitful practice, I think for.

582
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 3: People, I'll just say, I'll just say.

583
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: This, brush it up on your tech terms.

584
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 4: I have a colleague who is in this realm, and

585
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,959
Speaker 4: let's just say we're talking.

586
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, there you go. When we come back, it's

587
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: Esquire etiquette. Yeah, we've got some of that. IM runs

588
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: back with us.

589
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 5: Don't go on once again from New York Here's Radio

590
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 5: night Life and Kevin McCulla.

591
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: Well, welcome back, glad you're with us. Hey, by the way,

592
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: programming note for AM nine seventy the answer tomorrow night,

593
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: You're not Arthur Idolla is out gallivanting doing things that

594
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 2: you know, very smart rich lawyers do. I don't know

595
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: what he's doing, to be honest, I think he's I

596
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: think he's in the country, but I think he's going somewhere.

597
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: So it's gonna be he's off, and he's so graciously

598
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: invited Christina and I to take over his hour tomorrow

599
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 2: and that just happens to coincide with the fifth anniversary

600
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 2: of the launch of Radio Night Live. So we're going

601
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 2: to have a party on the air. You're invited join

602
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: us from six to eight tomorrow night. And I think

603
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: every guest that we've ever had on the Fun Friday

604
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 2: Show has been invited to return. Many many of them can't,

605
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: but many of them will be listening or joining us

606
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: via zoom or whatever, and we're gonna be We're going

607
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: to be having a great time. I hope you'll check

608
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: it out tomorrow night at six to eight. All right,

609
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: Imron Esquire Etiquette, what do we take away from this case?

610
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 3: Sure?

611
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 4: So, you know, relating our Esquire Etiquette of the week

612
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 4: to the topic.

613
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: You know, I'm gonna I'm going to talk about a

614
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 3: case that I had.

615
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 4: Which dealt with a social media platform and a client

616
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 4: who was being consistently harasz asked by a user with

617
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 4: you know, images of her being posted, you know, which

618
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 4: were not appropriate for the public, and that she never

619
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 4: intended because this.

620
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: Was an ex boyfriend.

621
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: Yes, so you know, when you find yourself in that situation,

622
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 4: god forbid, there's legal remedies for you, right, you, You

623
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 4: certainly should contact a social media provider to alert them

624
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 4: of the content and flag it for them. Sometimes that's

625
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 4: a long process, right, And that's it takes longer than

626
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 4: you would you would hope and you may not get

627
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 4: the results or response that you would hope for from

628
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 4: a social.

629
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: Media content provider.

630
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 4: However, you can consult with an attorney, and an attorney

631
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 4: corresponding with their legal department would get you results a

632
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 4: hell of a lot faster than you going it alone.

633
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: Yes, And there's also another aspect to that.

634
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 4: It's also alerting authorities and law enforcement that this is

635
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 4: going on. That implicates sometimes questions about jurisdiction and if

636
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 4: the individual is in a different state or you know,

637
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 4: is this a federal question, and things like that and

638
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 4: those sort of issues that may percolate up are best

639
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 4: navigated with the assistance of an attorney. But you don't

640
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 4: need to feel helpless, right if you have someone advocating

641
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 4: for you. If you are not, you know, if you

642
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 4: feel like you're not getting the response from the social

643
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 4: media platforms that you want, you really should consult with

644
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 4: an attorney about this quote unquote revenge porn aspect of

645
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 4: the law. And there's legal protections for you out there

646
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 4: because this could be traumatic, it could be sort of

647
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 4: life altering, it could shatter careers or personal relationships. But

648
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 4: there's real legal consequences for the individual who's putting that

649
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 4: out there, and you should certainly consult with an attorney

650
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 4: to help guide you through the process.

651
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a good word and friend, I

652
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 2: hope that you will take it to heart. And of course,

653
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: if you'd ever like to have who I think is

654
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: the best civil litigator in the country, take a look

655
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: at your case, call im Ron's firm. In fact, I

656
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 2: am Ron give out the phone number for Idala, Bertuna

657
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: and Camons so people can reach you if they have

658
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 2: a case.

659
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 4: Sure, so it's two one, two four eight six zero

660
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 4: zero one one two one two four eighty six zero

661
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 4: zero one one.

662
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: All right, that's all we have until tomorrow night's big

663
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: fifth anniversary party. We'll see you at six pm tomorrow

664
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: night on AM ninety seventy. The Answer