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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: You talk about how the supernatural reality of the Jesus

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Speaker 2: story has been normalized. What if we took off our

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Speaker 2: kind of naturalistic Western lens and looked at this within

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Speaker 2: the culture in which it existed and actually understood it.

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Speaker 1: There's not an ounce of it that is not cosmic.

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Speaker 1: There are some ideas in terminology and frameworks to how

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Speaker 1: we read and understand the story of Jesus that have

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Speaker 1: become normalized that we just kind of gloss over it

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Speaker 1: and we lose the significance of the impact of Like

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Speaker 1: this is the cosmic Christ. If that is so true

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Speaker 1: and that is so crucial to what we believe, why

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Speaker 1: would we want to intentionally or unintentionally strip the spiritual reality,

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Speaker 1: the cosmic reality of the rest of the scriptures?

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Speaker 2: Joel Mudumali, you've written a provocative new book called The

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Speaker 2: Unseen Battle, which builds on Michael Heiser's enormously influential and

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Speaker 2: best selling book The Unseen Realm.

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Speaker 3: We're going to get into the book.

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Speaker 2: I found it fascinating, I found it eye opening, It

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Speaker 2: was enjoyable. I want listeners and viewers to mark their

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Speaker 2: calendars because you're coming back live with me March twenty fourth,

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Speaker 2: four thirty pm Pacific Standard time to take questions, challenges,

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Speaker 2: clarifications on your book and also on the work of

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Speaker 2: Michael Heiser.

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Speaker 3: So mark your calendars.

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Speaker 2: If you're a Heiser fan, or if this is the

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Speaker 2: first time, join us, because I get a ton of

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Speaker 2: questions about this and I don't always know how to

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Speaker 2: answer it. Not that you have all the answers, but

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Speaker 2: you knew Michael personally, and so let's just jump in.

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Speaker 2: Who was Michael Heiser and why has he had such

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Speaker 2: a massive and lasting impact on the church?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's so much to say, Sean about Mike.

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Speaker 1: Michael Heiser was a PhD in Hebrew Semitics, Languages, and scholarship,

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Speaker 1: and he was a Hebrew Bible nerd. He truly loved

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Speaker 1: the scriptures. He was a husband, a dad, a granddad.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things about Mike that you need

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Speaker 1: to know or off the bat is he was one

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Speaker 1: of the most obnoxious Green Bay Packers fans that you

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Speaker 1: could have ever you could have ever met. And in

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Speaker 1: all of that, Mike cared deeply about reading the Bible

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Speaker 1: on its own terms and its own contexts, and being

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Speaker 1: a Hebrew Bible guy. He really wanted us to understand

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Speaker 1: the Bible in the context of the engineer Eastern world,

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Speaker 1: and so that's what he dedicated his life to. He

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Speaker 1: wrote many books. The Unseen Realm, which he just referenced,

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Speaker 1: is probably his most prolific book in terms of reach

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Speaker 1: and influence. But he also wrote books on the anachic tradition,

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Speaker 1: a book called Reversing Hermann. He wrote a book simply

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Speaker 1: called Angels, all about angelic figures and demons, and I

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Speaker 1: mean his footnotes could be a book in and of themselves,

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Speaker 1: and so he made a pretty big impact on me

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Speaker 1: in that way.

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Speaker 2: So I've done two shows on Heiser and they're two

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Speaker 2: of the most viewed and engage shows that I've done. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he really was a revolutionary thinker. I don't think it's

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Speaker 2: an overstatement to say that even people not convinced by

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Speaker 2: his arguments have to pause and say, maybe he got

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Speaker 2: something right, or a lot of things right, And maybe

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Speaker 2: I'm underplaying the supernatural element in the scriptures and are

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Speaker 2: our present, which is what's important in your book. Now,

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Speaker 2: how did you first come across his writings, Because I

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Speaker 2: remember the first moment somebody told me about him, I

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Speaker 2: could come back to that. So tell me when you

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Speaker 2: were introduced to it and how his writings influenced you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think what's so interesting about what you just

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Speaker 1: said actually is I was one of those individuals that

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Speaker 1: actually was pretty skeptical, if not straight up disagreed with

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Speaker 1: Mike on his worldview and his biblical kind of take,

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Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to SALMYD two. And so I

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Speaker 1: came across Mike. Actually we both worked for a Bible

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Speaker 1: software company called Logos Bible Software. I know you're very

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Speaker 1: familiar with them.

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Speaker 3: I use it.

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Speaker 2: I literally promote their stuff almost every day. I literally

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Speaker 2: use their software, same fans the same.

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Speaker 1: They launched a product called Faithlife dot Com and faith

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Speaker 1: Life Study Bible, and so they brought me on to

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Speaker 1: kind of be a product manager for that. And so

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Speaker 1: with the faith Luf Study Bible, one of my jobs

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Speaker 1: was to read through all of the essays and the articles. Well,

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Speaker 1: Mike was scholar in residence at Logus Bible Software, and

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Speaker 1: he wrote a majority of those articles. Here were a

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Speaker 1: lot of those footnotes and study notes. And I came

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Speaker 1: across Psalm eighty two because I'm thinking, Hey, what what

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Speaker 1: should we promote as we're going to ready to do this,

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Speaker 1: and I read Psalm eighty two, and to be frank Sean,

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Speaker 1: I was like offended. Offended. I'm like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: is this guy actually suggesting that the sons of God

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Speaker 1: and Psalm eighty two are divine beings? And then I

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Speaker 1: was like, if he says that about so many two,

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Speaker 1: what did he say about Genesis six? And so I

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Speaker 1: flipped over to Genesis six and then I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: he thinks the sons of God in Genesis six are

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Speaker 1: angelic angels can't have sex with human women like they can't.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, my level of panic had really kind

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Speaker 1: of increased, and so I actually said I can't believe

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Speaker 1: it did this. I'm kind of young as well, kind

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Speaker 1: of knew my career, I said, email to the CEO,

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Speaker 1: Bob Pritchett. I sent an email to the editor, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I've got some concern, you know, just very

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Speaker 1: just I was a punk kid, to be honest on

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Speaker 1: And then I got up Mike's office. Was if you've

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Speaker 1: been to Logus Mob Software, there's a flat iron building

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Speaker 1: and there's this cool spot where there's like all these

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Speaker 1: games and books and food and everything. Well, Mike's office

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Speaker 1: was right there, and so I'm up one day and

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Speaker 1: I see Mike's doors open, and I was like, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I'm just gonna ask him about this. And

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Speaker 1: I kind of walked in bra I had just gone

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Speaker 1: down with my seminary degree from NOx Theological Seminary, some

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Speaker 1: kind of newly minted.

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Speaker 3: Your master's or your PhD, my masters.

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Speaker 1: I just got done, yep, Masters of Theological Studies. So

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of thinking I'm walking with my broad shoulders,

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Speaker 1: you know, walking in, and right behind him this is

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Speaker 1: very important. Right behind him is a sign that said

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Speaker 1: reserved parking for Hebrew scholars. So here I am, you know,

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Speaker 1: freshly minted with my MAT's degree, walking in, And I

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Speaker 1: was just like, Mike, I've got some real concerns with

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Speaker 1: your take on Salt Maiti too, you know, And I

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Speaker 1: don't think we can promote this. I think that the

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Speaker 1: biblical world, the evangelical world, is going to cause his heretics,

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Speaker 1: and I think we got to protect the brand all

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Speaker 1: this stuff. Mike smiled and he looked at me and

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Speaker 1: he said, huh, so, what do you think the sons

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Speaker 1: of God are in Psalt Mati two? He said come

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Speaker 1: and sit down, and I was like, you know, and that,

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Speaker 1: I would say, Sean was one of the most significant

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Speaker 1: interactions I ever had with Mike, because he confronted, I

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Speaker 1: would say, my pride and arrogance with a posture of humility,

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Speaker 1: and that humility has been like the mark for me

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Speaker 1: as I've thought about theology, as I've gone on to

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Speaker 1: do PhD studies, and all of that has been gosh,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to trust theologians and scholars and pastors

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Speaker 1: who do not walk with the limp. And Mike really

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Speaker 1: just was like, hey, let's walk through this, and we

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Speaker 1: walked through the text, and I was confronted with my

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Speaker 1: own kind of idiosyncratic kind of ideas about the text

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Speaker 1: that we're told to me that I had kind of

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Speaker 1: ingested and just believed about it, versus trying to identify

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Speaker 1: where does the text itself say that on its own terms.

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Speaker 1: And so that was kind of the first thing. And

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Speaker 1: so then Mike and I work together for years. I

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Speaker 1: was kind of convinced of the dude Army thirty two

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Speaker 1: worldview and his angelic view.

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Speaker 2: I was confronted, which we'll get to by the way,

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Speaker 2: people are like, what are you talking about we'll get there, we'll.

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Speaker 1: Get there, We'll get there, and then we parted ways.

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Speaker 1: I went to go work for a gal named Lisa Turkhurst.

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Speaker 1: She is an incredible Bible teacher and an author, and

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Speaker 1: she is the president of the ministry called Proverbs thirty

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Speaker 1: one Ministries, And yeah, I went to work for them

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Speaker 1: to bring oversight to theological development and research. One of

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Speaker 1: the kind of deals though, was I needed to get

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Speaker 1: a PhD along the way, and so I started a

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Speaker 1: PhD program at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. So I'm really

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Speaker 1: a theological mutt if you've clut onto this by now.

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Speaker 1: An undergrad attorney life Bible College, which was charismatic kind

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Speaker 1: of assemblies of God, a master's degree at NX Theological Seminary,

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Speaker 1: which is Presbyterian, and then a PhD at Midwestern Baptist

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Speaker 1: Theological Seminer. The only thing I haven't done is Sean

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Speaker 1: is Anglican, which i'll probably hit postdoc workers or at

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Speaker 1: some point i'll do that. But I get to my

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Speaker 1: program and then I'm thinking deeply about kind of the

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Speaker 1: chaos that's happening in our world as we're working through

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Speaker 1: different seminars, particularly the Image of God upon Humanity. I'm Indian.

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Speaker 1: You know, my parents are immigrants from India here, so

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Speaker 1: I'm the child of immigrant parents and grew up in

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Speaker 1: a kind of confused situation in the streets of Chicago,

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out my own identity and kind of thinking,

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Speaker 1: there's so much more to the chaos that's happening in

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Speaker 1: this world, not just outside of the household of God,

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Speaker 1: but even within the household of God. And then I

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Speaker 1: came across Paul and his letter to the Church in

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Speaker 1: Ephesus and his kind of household terminology, which is what

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Speaker 1: got me to thinking, I think Paul has in mind

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Speaker 1: much more than what weave or I've traditionally thought when

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Speaker 1: he's referring to the household of God. And I had

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Speaker 1: to start thinking about advisors. And so my first reader

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Speaker 1: this guy named doctor Patrick Shiner, brilliant New Testament scholar,

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Speaker 1: great work on the ascension. And also you'll love this

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Speaker 1: about Pat. I knew that I wanted to ask him

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Speaker 1: to be my first reader when he walked into one

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Speaker 1: of our seminars with a pair of Jordan Once he

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Speaker 1: had a pair, he had like the suit cut on

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Speaker 1: the whole LANs, but he had a pair Organs. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: that's my guy. And then I was like, I think

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask Mike. But Mike didn't really take

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Speaker 1: any PhD students at that time. He was onst had

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Speaker 1: done really well, so I was like, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: shoot my shot. Let's see what's the worst that can happen,

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Speaker 1: you know, sent him an email kind of a brief thesis.

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Speaker 1: I think that the Greek phrase oil cost how theo,

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Speaker 1: I think it means more than just human family. I

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Speaker 1: think Paul has in mind a cosmic family. And Mike responded,

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Speaker 1: He's like, you're absolutely onto something. Let's do this. And

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Speaker 1: so that is how he became my second reader. And

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Speaker 1: I built my dissertation really off of kind of the

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Speaker 1: dude Army thirty two worldview. And then sadly, we can

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Speaker 1: get into this as much as you want as little.

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Speaker 1: I had submitted chapter three of my dissertation when he

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Speaker 1: was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and I have the text

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Speaker 1: message because I'm thinking, hey, he's going to have to

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Speaker 1: bounce out. He's fighting for his life. And he messaged

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Speaker 1: me and said, don't even think about getting another second reader,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to see you through this, and that's what happened.

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Speaker 1: He we figured out a rotation. I submitted my chapters

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Speaker 1: when he was in chemo because he was bored and

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Speaker 1: that was the perfect time. The week after chemo was

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Speaker 1: hard for him because that was when his body was

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Speaker 1: kind of taking a toll. So he would send me

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Speaker 1: off in pictures of just him sitting, you know, in

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Speaker 1: his chemo chair, working through just and when I say

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Speaker 1: working through, my incredible, incredible, and but honestly, he wasn't

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Speaker 1: nice to me. He just really ripped me apart too,

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Speaker 1: so that you know, that didn't help me at all.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I think that he had more time to

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Speaker 1: look with detail on my argumentation, and so I defended.

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Speaker 1: And a couple of years later he past because of

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Speaker 1: the pancrewdic cancer. But in an interesting way, my theological

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Speaker 1: kind of career has bookended these two incredible scholars. I

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Speaker 1: was Mike's very last PhD student that he saw all

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Speaker 1: the way through. And I was actually Patrick's very first

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Speaker 1: PhD student interest that he minted with the PhD.

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Speaker 3: That's fascinating. There's really these things.

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Speaker 2: Just his response, I gotta highlight this student comes in

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Speaker 2: and he goes, let's talk. That shows confidence, shows humility,

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Speaker 2: it shows a commitment to the scriptures above all, that's

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Speaker 2: just a model that literally convicts me right here going.

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Speaker 2: How many times does it Paul just get defensive and

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Speaker 2: not just invite that conversation?

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Speaker 3: Beautiful?

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Speaker 2: I interviewed him on demons and I reached out and

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Speaker 2: I said, hey, can we do an interview on angels?

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Speaker 2: Email me back? And he said, he goes, I'd love

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Speaker 2: to do it. I'm going in for an appointment to

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Speaker 2: check on the cancer. And it turns out it was

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Speaker 2: the one in which he found out it was basically fatal.

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Speaker 2: One of my regrets is, like White, I just reach

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Speaker 2: out sooner he would have done it.

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Speaker 3: Just wanted to give him space. But what an.

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Speaker 2: Incredible one, incredible example that you have to interact with

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Speaker 2: him in that way.

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Speaker 3: I love it. Let's get in the book and in

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Speaker 3: the book you.

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Speaker 2: Frame this, you talk about how the supernatural reality of

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Speaker 2: the Jesus story has been normalized. Yeah, and you kind

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Speaker 2: of asked the question, what if we took off our

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Speaker 2: kind of naturalistic Western lens and looked at this within

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Speaker 2: the culture in which it existed and actually understood it,

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Speaker 2: what would take place and how does unseen battle approach this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I would kind of ask a question, and

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Speaker 1: this is what really convicted me. So I'll ask it

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Speaker 1: to everybody who's watching listening in on this, and you

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Speaker 1: can kind of play this out with me. I want

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Speaker 1: to make a statement and then Sean tell me, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of fact check me on this that the core

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Speaker 1: of what you and I believe as followers of Jesus Christians,

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Speaker 1: you know, followers of the way, that we would say

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Speaker 1: that this is foundational for a belief system that we

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Speaker 1: believe that Jesus is the son of God, that he

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Speaker 1: is one hundred percent God, didn't lose an ounce of

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Speaker 1: his divinity, took one humanity upon himself through the incarnation,

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Speaker 1: was born of immaculate conception through literal virgin birth, lived

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Speaker 1: an actual, perfect literal life that he defeated hidden death

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Speaker 1: through death itself. Died on a little Roman cross, went

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Speaker 1: into a literal grave, came out of the grave three

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Speaker 1: days later, and then just for the fun of bit,

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Speaker 1: I think hung out for forty days, you know, to

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Speaker 1: prove the point to a whole bunch of people as eyewitnesses.

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Speaker 1: And then ascends to the right hand of the Father,

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Speaker 1: which is where he sits right now, reigning and ruling.

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Speaker 1: Like what part of that, Sean is not cosmic in nature?

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Speaker 2: See I love this because you asked that question in

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Speaker 2: the introduction, and I paused before I read for further

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Speaker 2: because I'm like, I know he's setting me up for something,

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Speaker 2: but what is he setting me up for? Obviously I

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Speaker 2: don't want to steal your thunder, but you just basically

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Speaker 2: explain the gospel, the root of who Jesus is, what

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Speaker 2: he accomplished, And.

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Speaker 3: So I want you to land this planet.

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Speaker 2: I want to steal your thunder because this is a

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Speaker 2: really important point that sets up your book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's not an ounce of it that is not

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Speaker 1: cosmic in nature. And so what I think has happened

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Speaker 1: is there are some ideas and terminology and frameworks to

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Speaker 1: how we read and understand the story of Jesus that

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Speaker 1: have become normalized in such a way that we just

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Speaker 1: kind of gloss over it and we lose the significance

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Speaker 1: of the impact of Like this is the cosmic Christ.

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Speaker 1: This is all of what Ephesians and Cautions is talking about,

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Speaker 1: the reigning and ruling cosmic reality of the King of

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Speaker 1: Heaven and Earth. And then my question is, if that

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Speaker 1: is so true, and that is so crucial to what

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Speaker 1: we believe, why would we want to intentionally or unintentionally

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Speaker 1: strip the spiritual reality the cosmic reality of the rest

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Speaker 1: of the scriptures. Because it's almost like we act like

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Speaker 1: we just needed right here in the story of Jesus

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Speaker 1: and then everything else we can allow our twenty first

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Speaker 1: century kind of modern Industrial revolution mind post Enlightenment worldview

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Speaker 1: to kind of just answer all of the questions that

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Speaker 1: we have everywhere else because in a way they're a

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Speaker 1: threat to us or we're uncomfortable with the cosmic impact

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Speaker 1: of that, But don't mess with the Jesus part of it,

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Speaker 1: Like we got.

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Speaker 2: To get maybe Moses because the exceptions maybe acts when

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Speaker 2: the church started, but it's not the norm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're getting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the real big part of it is that

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Speaker 1: this was the norm. This was the worldview of the

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Speaker 1: Engineerings world and the Greco Roman world of the New Testament.

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Speaker 1: And God is sovereign, and in his sovereignty he chose

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Speaker 1: to give us the written word, the canon of scripture

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Speaker 1: today within human space and time, through human authors that

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Speaker 1: he divinely is inspiring and guiding and leading, and we

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Speaker 1: get personality from the human authors, right, Like we get

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Speaker 1: a little bit of I think the sarcas of Paul

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Speaker 1: as he's writing, and I think Paul's a little bit

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Speaker 1: passive aggressive in his writing, which makes me really happy,

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Speaker 1: you know, because it gives me a little bit of encouragement.

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Speaker 1: You know. You get John, and every time I read John,

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Speaker 1: I just kind of think, like, man, he'd be one

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Speaker 1: of those friends that I really love. But it's always

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Speaker 1: annoying me because he's always pointing out, like how much

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Speaker 1: he's like the pat Like you know, he's like the

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Speaker 1: best friend of and like, but you get the personality

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Speaker 1: and that is so important to us, And why would

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Speaker 1: we want to miss that when it comes to the Bible,

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Speaker 1: particularly the first five books of the Old Testament Genesis, Exis, Libticus, Numbers,

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Speaker 1: and Deuteronomy that Moses, we believe, traditionally penned the Torah.

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Speaker 1: And it's like, hey, in these books lies the cosmic

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Speaker 1: storyline of scripture and this is actually the battlefield that

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Speaker 1: we enter into within our worldview today. Why would we

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Speaker 1: want to be disconnected from the story that we have

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Speaker 1: stepped into.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: So I want to tie together what you're doing with

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Speaker 2: what we do here. So you kind of have to

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Speaker 2: fly from the East coast sit down with me. At

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Speaker 2: Tabvischool Theology, we have an apologetic program, yep. And so

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Speaker 2: we've noticed naturalism coming with a critique of miracles, a

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Speaker 2: critique of the soul, a critique.

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Speaker 3: Of the existence of God. We spend a.

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Speaker 2: Decent amount of time critiquing those who critique the worldview outside.

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Speaker 2: In part you're saying, we do it to ourselves by

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Speaker 2: not letting the supernatural, cosmic element of the Bible that's

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Speaker 2: right there if we just see it speak for itself.

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Speaker 2: So in some ways naturalism encroaches in the church through

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Speaker 2: non believers and skeptics and atheists, and through Christians who

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Speaker 2: unwittingly adopt a normalized naturalistic worldview. Let's go to the text, yep,

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Speaker 2: and take a look at Now one more question. You've

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Speaker 2: said a lot of things that if people are still

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Speaker 2: with us, probably have that thought you had originally, like,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, the family of God? What are you

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Speaker 2: talking about the household of God? Are we talking about

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Speaker 2: gods that exist? Now we're going to get there. The

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Speaker 2: Doud on thirty two worldview. What on earth is that?

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Speaker 2: But I want to read something that you said that

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Speaker 2: I think is intentionally provocative.

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Speaker 3: It gets the heart of your worldview.

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Speaker 2: You write this early on something that may be surprising

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Speaker 2: to us, that humanity was not alone in the garden

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Speaker 2: of Eden. Now you don't mean the snake, you don't

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Speaker 2: mean the animals. Yep, there were other family members of

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Speaker 2: God also resent. What do you mean and how does

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Speaker 2: that line up with kind of the ancient Near East

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Speaker 2: worldview at that time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a couple of things that's happening here.

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Speaker 1: One of them, Sean is often we take imagery that's

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Speaker 1: present in the biblical context and we again either intentionally

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Speaker 1: unintentionally impose our modern twenty first century worldview. So, for instance,

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Speaker 1: the idea of a mountain. I don't know about you.

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Speaker 1: I think of a mount and I'm like, oh, cool,

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Speaker 1: that might be a great Instagram spot we can go

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Speaker 1: on a hike. You know, it's like, oh that's fun.

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Speaker 1: You know, the mountains and the engineer Resian worldview were

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Speaker 1: it was understood as the meeting place of God and humanity.

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Speaker 1: Think about all the Greek myths, right, You've got Mount Olympus,

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Speaker 1: You've got this idea of the council of the Gods

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Speaker 1: that take place on these peaks. And one of my

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Speaker 1: basic fundamental thesis kind of ideas is the best narrative

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Speaker 1: has always and will always be the biblical narrative. It

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Speaker 1: really is. This is what gives the fuel and the

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Speaker 1: steam to the midst of the nations is they realize, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: why would we recreate the wheel. Let's just plagiarize the

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Speaker 1: one true story, but then spin it out in a

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Speaker 1: way that's actually deceptive. And so right off the bat

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Speaker 1: with Eden, you find that Eden is actually on a mountain,

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Speaker 1: and Eden on a mountain, You've got these rivers that

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Speaker 1: come down. You've got Isaiah fourteen and is equal twenty

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Speaker 1: eight that explicitly give us the sense that of the

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Speaker 1: holy Garden of God that is on top of a

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Speaker 1: mountain mount Eden, And so like, why is that important?

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Speaker 1: Because in the ancient Near Eastern worldview, the mountain tops

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Speaker 1: were the place where God would plant a garden, and

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Speaker 1: the garden would be the place where he would reside

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Speaker 1: with his family, with his loved ones. This is true

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Speaker 1: not just for the deities of the Near Eastern world.

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Speaker 1: It's also true for the human kings of the Mesopotamian

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Speaker 1: time period the Babylonian time period, and so it would

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Speaker 1: be common for them to plant gardens and to have

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Speaker 1: their families together and to enjoy it. One of the

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Speaker 1: details of the Edenic story that I think is so

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Speaker 1: fascinating is that it was routine. Genesis three tells us

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Speaker 1: it was routine for Yahweh to walk in the garden

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Speaker 1: of Eden with Adam and Eve. And then the detail

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Speaker 1: is in the cool of the evening breeze. Well, why

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Speaker 1: in the cool of the evening breeze, because it was

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Speaker 1: after the day's work had been done, and so now

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Speaker 1: you're coming. And then the Hebrew word I won't get

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Speaker 1: too into the details on this, but the Hebrew word

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Speaker 1: for walk there does not have a destination in mind, right.

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Speaker 1: I confession, Sean, I hate going on walks, Like honestly,

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Speaker 1: it's like I'm a hooper. So I love hooping because

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Speaker 1: there's like a goal. I know, I was talking your son, Scottie,

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Speaker 1: like I've got the itch right now. But like my wife,

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Speaker 1: we've been here for sixteen years. That girl loves to walk.

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Speaker 1: She loves to walk for no reason. My wife, I

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Speaker 1: mean they And so after sixteen years, I have learned

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Speaker 1: the way to love show my love for my wife

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Speaker 1: is when she says, hey, babe, you want to go

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Speaker 1: on a walk, I'm like this. The flesh is saying no,

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Speaker 1: but the Holy Spirit is tell me you better get

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Speaker 1: out there on that walk, And so I like, go

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Speaker 1: on a walk. And for me it's a destination, go

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Speaker 1: do a cull to sack, be done. For her it's not.

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Speaker 1: So when we are done, I'm done, I look at

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Speaker 1: him like, hey, babe, are we done? And she'll be

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Speaker 1: like no, well why, I'm like I don't know, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like all disappointed. The aim and ambition of that

432
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 1: walk for the two of us is very different. For

433
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 1: my wife, the aim and ambition is about the intimacy

434
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 1: of conversation from the starting point to the end point.

435
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 1: But for me, it's just purely about the destination. That

436
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,640
Speaker 1: Hebrew word for walk in the garden of Eden has

437
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: nothing to do with a destination, and it has to

438
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,439
Speaker 1: do with the leisurely walk that one would have with

439
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: ones that they love, which you think, what is God doing?

440
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 1: He is King and Father and these two kind of

441
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 1: duality roles play itself out in Eden, and then the

442
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: question of well, who are these other family members? Have

443
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 1: you ever wondered, Sean, why does not freak out when

444
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 1: the serpent shows.

445
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 2: I totally, it's such an obvious, fair question.

446
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: It's and you're like, there's a serpent, the serpent is talking,

447
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,199
Speaker 1: like forget what the serpent says, like, let's start with

448
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: what is going on right now? And once again the

449
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: engineer Eastern worldview would help us in this moment because

450
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: in the Greek, in the actually the Hebrew myths, particularly

451
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 1: in the Mesopotamian Acadian kind of worldview, whenever animals started

452
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 1: to speak, this was an inclination that something cosmic, supernatural

453
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: was happening, right, kind of a telltale sign. The other

454
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: interesting detail is that the Hebrew word for the serpent

455
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 1: is the Hebrew word nakash, and that word has in

456
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: mind kind of three things. It hasn't mind a literal serpent.

457
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 1: It also hasn't mind a bronze or fiery image, which

458
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: actually echoes back to Isaiah fourteen. And it also means

459
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: guardian cherub, so cherub was a throne room guardian. Right.

460
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: Interesting detail. What is placed outside of Eden to protect

461
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 1: Eden after Adam and Eve fall. Guardian Cherubim right, So

462
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 1: why does Eve not freak out when she sees the serpent?

463
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,439
Speaker 1: Maybe it's because it's not about the appearance of the serpent.

464
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: It was normative for cosmic supernatural beings to come to

465
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: and fro and to be in the garden house of God.

466
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: But you know what was odd for that supernatural being

467
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 1: to cause doubt and dissension about the truth and the

468
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: identity of who God is. So this is actually spiritual warfare.

469
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: Spiritual warfare is an issue of discernment. It is discerning.

470
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: Charles Burton has this great quote, it's a discernment between

471
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: not just what is right and wrong, but between what's

472
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: right and what's almost right. And so here the serpent

473
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: kind of gives the n the cash kind of gives

474
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: just fragments of truth, but actually is aiming at despoiling

475
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: them and causing rebellion to take place. And so you've

476
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: got that once again. You can go to Isaiah fourteen.

477
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: You can go to Ezekiel twenty eight, which lets you

478
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 1: know that in the Garden of God you've got these

479
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: cosmic supernatural beings and these stories parallel other engineer Eastern

480
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: stories You've got the epic of Gilgamash, which kind of interesting.

481
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 1: There's the cedar forest that is the entrance into a mountain.

482
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: That mountain is where the god resides, the gods reside,

483
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: and there was a jewel forest that actually made that

484
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: mountain inaccessible. So just in your own time think about

485
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: that story and now read Isaiah fourteen Ezekiel twenty eight. Right,

486
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: there's another Sumerian story of Enki. Which do you find

487
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 1: this story about a gardener, the gardener of the gods.

488
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: And so some people might right now Sean be like,

489
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: wait a minute, did the did the Hebrew Bible rip

490
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 1: off the engineer Eastern stories? Like? Which one is the

491
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 1: true story?

492
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 3: I want to I want to europe apologetic question.

493
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: Okay, this is your hoops guy, right yep, Sean, who

494
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: who's the goat? M? Jerry Lebron?

495
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 2: Well, you and I are going to agree on this.

496
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 2: I read this in your book. My son would make

497
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: a case for Lebron. Yeah, but I'm going with okay,

498
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 2: And here's how I land it. Yeah, by line up

499
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: and I say I'm playing five on five. There's no

500
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: one on the planet I ever pick over Jordan. End

501
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: of story done, that's my case. But go with your point.

502
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: Okay. So I find this fascinating. Do we have any

503
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: evidence of mj Ever saying that he's the goat?

504
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: No, he's actually ironically a little bit more humble about

505
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 2: that and lets other people decide in a way, Lebron

506
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: claims to be the goats.

507
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So make your point. This is fascinating. The one

508
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: true story doesn't need to be defended.

509
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 3: I agreed, the one truth.

510
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: I mean why because the story's there, because it has

511
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: truth in and of itself. The simple fact that Lebron

512
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: has to go around all the time it feels it's

513
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: kind of nauseating honestly about like why he should be

514
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: the goat or why he has got that status. Actually

515
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: is an inclination that there is a contrary story to

516
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: that one that is being presented. And so this is

517
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: all images. Illustrations break down at some point. But I'm

518
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: using this as a way to point us back to

519
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: what's happening in the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible presumom's

520
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: the one true story. And along the way, and we're

521
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: gonna ge into this with the jude Army three or

522
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 1: two worldview, there are competing stories that are being told

523
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: that just have vestiges of the truth, right, Like they

524
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: just sound almost good, and yet there's clearly some issues

525
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: that are there. For instance, Lebron jumps ship to every

526
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: other team just to win a championship.

527
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: You know, it's just bubbles. It just it just comes.

528
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: So I'm with you on this. The key point is

529
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: just because there's similarities doesn't mean borrowing. The Bible's written

530
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 2: a certain culture in a certain language at a certain time,

531
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: and that can help shed light on what's going on

532
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 2: in the scriptures. Yeah, that's what you're doing.

533
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: Which and the and the technical term here is that

534
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: I would argue that these opening pages of Genesis are

535
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: a polemic. There are an argument against the competing narrative

536
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: myths because as these myths have come into existence, now

537
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: we've got to create a correction to it, which is

538
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: why you know, like the last dance came out.

539
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 2: But I'm gonna stop, I'm stop, So let's do this

540
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: that helps. Let's walk through four passages, yep. I'm gonna

541
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: ask you to give just the brief concise interpretation because

542
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: I want people to connect these together. And then we're

543
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: going live Tuesday four point thirty. If somebody's not convinced

544
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: by these passages, raise your objections will go into more

545
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: depth there. But tie this together, you argue Genesis one

546
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 2: twenty six when it says let us make man in

547
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: our image, what do you think that means?

548
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so I want to start this because really we're

549
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: continuing the argumentation of does God have a heavenly family? Right?

550
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: And that's right off the bat. People are gonna be like,

551
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: wait a minute, number right, So I can let me

552
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: argue from the text for why I'll hold to that.

553
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: Look at Ephesians three fourteen through sixteen. For this reason,

554
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: I kneel before the Father from whom every family. Look

555
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: at this in heaven and on earth derives its name

556
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: so explicitly inside of the text, right, you have the

557
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: context of God who is father. Not only is he father,

558
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: but he has a family. These families are present in

559
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: both heaven the heavenlies, right, and on earth. So you

560
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: just exogenically are gonna have to figure out if God

561
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: doesn't have a two family household, how do we deal

562
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: with that? Okay, but let's go to Genesis one twenty six.

563
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: So Genesis one twenty six, is this kind of phrase

564
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: let us make mat Now, I'm gonna be honest, this

565
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: is the view that I used to have. I held

566
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: for a really long time until I really got into

567
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: my dissertation work. I came from kind of a systematic

568
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: theology background, you know, and so most systematic theology books,

569
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: when you come across Genesis one twenty six, they're gonna

570
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: say the let us is an indication of the triune God, right,

571
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: is indication of the trendy. I know there's probably gonna

572
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: be a question later on that is going to be,

573
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: like some differences that I might have had with Mike,

574
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: we can kind of earmark this as one of them,

575
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: which is I am not I don't think that it's

576
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: necessary for us to create sharp distinctions and says twenty

577
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: six has nothing to do with the triune God because

578
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: God is ontologically triune.

579
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: Right like President, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are present

580
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: in the creation.

581
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 3: Question is does this verse teach that? Yeah?

582
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so the I don't want to get into too

583
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: much of the nerdy Hebrew grammar. You can go to

584
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: the footnotes of my book for this when I kind

585
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: of work through it in in Genesis one, two and three.

586
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: But the idea here is that you've got what's referred

587
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: to as a plural of majesty that's taking place that

588
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: when God makes the statement that let us, it's less

589
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: about him and his trinitarian nature and more about placing

590
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: him as king in a council in the midst of

591
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: a heavenly host and an assembly. It'd be similar sean

592
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: to I've got four kids fourteen, twelve, ten and then five,

593
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: and so I've been in the room every time that

594
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: the kids have been born. It'd be similar to my

595
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: wife when I walk in to the to the you know,

596
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: the room, she goes, let's do this thing right, and

597
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: I'm like yeah, and then guess what she does it all.

598
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: I have no part. My only part is to hold

599
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: her hand, and when I hold I have arthritis in

600
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: my right hand because she just crushed my hand throughout

601
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: the price like like but she she does the whole thing,

602
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: but she uses a plural we like, let let us do.

603
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: It's an acknowledgment of all of the people that are

604
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: inside of the room. Now, every analogy breaks down, so

605
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: don't you know, don't read too much into it. But

606
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: it's an example to say, Okay, what's happening here. And

607
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: you've got actually a church history on our side, in

608
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: the sense of you've got Philo from early as Philo onwards.

609
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: Jewish.

610
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Fio is not just Jewish. She's roughly around

611
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: the same time of Jesus. He's living, you know, absolutely,

612
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: and he's taken incredibly important work of taking Hellenistic thought

613
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: of the time and contextualizing it to the Hebraic worldview

614
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: and the thought, and so we should pay attention. One

615
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: of the you know, one of the arguments against this

616
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: is like, well, follow is not a Christian. Well, of

617
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: course he's not a Christian. But does that mean that

618
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: non Christians can't give us like really incredible important insights.

619
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: I think that helps your case. Actually, I don't think

620
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: it hurts it, Okay.

621
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: So I want to make sure people are making the

622
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: connections here. So when God says, let us make man

623
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: in our image, obviously God is the soul creator, doesn't

624
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: need angels or animals or the point you're making this

625
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: household of God who is present. Yeah, he's announcing this

626
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: to them, just like your wife says, let's go. She's

627
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: the one who does all the delivery in the hard work.

628
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: Here and the grammar. This is so important because it's

629
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: gonna be misconstrued. The grammar affirms this because you go

630
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: from a plural we of Genesis one twenty six to

631
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: a singular act, a singular verbal act of creation in

632
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: Genesis one twenty seven, and then it's extremely explicit. Then

633
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: God singularly creates Adam and Eve in his singular likeness

634
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: and image. So the grammar reinforces the idea of a

635
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: singular creator, and it maintains a creator creation distinction while

636
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: leaving room for the fact that he's not by himself.

637
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: There's an actually, there's a passage in job that we're

638
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: gonna get to that actually reaffirms this.

639
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: But can get that so far, you're saying in the

640
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: creation moment, there's animals that are there, yep, But he's

641
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: referring to this household of God other gods not yah,

642
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: always lesser kind of divine type powers, which we'll get to.

643
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: I don't know if people lose their mind, you're not teaching polytheism,

644
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: that's right.

645
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 3: So we see this in Genesis one.

646
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: Connect the dots with Genesis six and this is a

647
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: huge passage. But just make the point about how you

648
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: believe this indicates a household of God and advances your case.

649
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: And you can come back in the question answer and

650
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: unpack that crazy passage, but keep the thread going.

651
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: Okay, So this one is difficult because it require foires

652
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: us to do a little bit of biblical theology here,

653
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: particularly in the Hebrew Bible. So in areas of confusion

654
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: we want to go to passages of clarity in order

655
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: to reinforce it. Right, So where does the Hebrew phrase

656
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: sons of God most explicitly clearly show up. It actually

657
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: shows up in job right right off the bat, in

658
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: Jobe one and two, and then again later on where

659
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: the phrase sons of God is a The Hebrew phrase

660
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: is Benelohem, and it refers to angelic beings who are

661
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: in the divine throne room of God. Okay, So if

662
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: that is the indication there, then when we look at

663
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: Genesis six, we have to have continuity of our hermeneutical

664
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: method of how we study and read and interpret the scriptures.

665
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: And so what does this mean? Some have argued that

666
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: the sons of God is what's called a Sethite view,

667
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: a human ruler's view. I want to give just a

668
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: couple of reasons why this is for me here before.

669
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: We connect to the Sethite view. This is the passage

670
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: in Genesis. Oh yeah, yeah, where this of God have

671
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: sex with the dinners, ye of men. And the question

672
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: is is there a natural interpretation? Are rulers or humans

673
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: or is it supernatural? And if it's supernatural, then these

674
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 2: sons of God might be a part of the family

675
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 2: of God who have gone wrong?

676
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly the basis.

677
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: Yes, that's really good. And remember this shows up as

678
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: the precursor to the flood. Now, I grew up in

679
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: a church, been in a lot of vacasion Bible schools.

680
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: The flood is like the most famous. Like, right, it's

681
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: like the Hollywood Top five, like themes to do. I

682
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: don't know about you. I never seen nobody do a

683
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: story about the nupheem ever, right, like like no, like,

684
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: but why are we ignoring Genesis six one through four?

685
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: Flood is kind of horrifying if you actually think about it.

686
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: But I keep and so how do we make sense

687
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: of gen six six one through four? So the view is, well,

688
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: this this, there's a naturalistic view to it, which is

689
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: the sons of God are the lineage of seth It's

690
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: called the Sethite view. The challenges to this. Just for

691
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: sake of clarity, the Hebrew word of dom is a

692
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: catchword categorically for humanity. And so now you have to

693
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: suggest that the first time Adam is used in Genesis six,

694
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: it's referring generally to humanity, but then the second time

695
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: that it's used, it's now being used specifically of Caine

696
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: eye women. Right, And because the idea is that it's

697
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: the holy line of Seth yep, right, that now inner

698
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: Mary with the unholy line of Cain and his daughters,

699
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: which creates chaos. But the problem is we have to

700
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: find exegetically, one, where are the line of Seth referred

701
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: to as sons of God throughout the rest of the Bible.

702
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: You won't find it. It's not there, So that's an issue.

703
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: The second issue is we're imposing the idea that the

704
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: God that the women are ungodly because they come from

705
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: the line of Cain, which once again is not found

706
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: in that verse or anywhere else that I can find. Now,

707
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: maybe somebody can do a Google search chet GPT and

708
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: find it, which you should, and you should write a

709
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: PhD dissertation on that because that would be crucial to

710
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: this conversation. The next issue is the nephiline. Who are

711
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: these nephiline and they're described as giants. That's the Greek

712
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: term for nepheline in the subtugen is gigas, and so

713
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: these massive individuals. The question is a question of coherence.

714
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: Why would human men who would marry human women produce

715
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: gigantic beings? Right Like, there's a chemistry biology question that's

716
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: over here. So the most coherent response for me would

717
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: be that we look at sons of God, we look

718
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: at other places that the phrase sons of God is

719
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: used most clearly in job, which is of angelic beings,

720
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: and then we say, oh, sons of God, they have

721
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: an unholy union with the daughters of man. The nature

722
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: of that union, we would suppose, is having sexual relations,

723
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: which produces these hybrid beings, unclean beings, which are really

724
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: I think the origin story of where you get Hercules

725
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: and where you get Achilles, and where all these other

726
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: gilga mash you know, kind of are rooted from. And

727
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: I think that that is a coherent end in Genesis

728
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: six sean. There is a worldview that has already understood

729
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: that you know, have been disconnected from that I think

730
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: the biblical author Moses doesn't feel the need to fill

731
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: in the dots for because the people of the time

732
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: already knew it. And this is where we get into

733
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: the tradition story.

734
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: We're not even given details about it, right, Like, it's

735
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 2: just placed there, like you said, as if we would

736
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 2: know what's going on in it moves on?

737
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, and we can do another illustration for that.

738
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: I said earlier, who's the greatest? MJ or Lebron? But

739
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: who did I mean by MJ?

740
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: You meant Michael Jackson? Clearly by right, see I mean

741
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 3: Magic Johnson.

742
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, So the context helps us Lebron, MJ.

743
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: You know what do you mean by goat great of

744
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: all time versus a furry animal? See, you and I

745
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: are doing this consistently. Five hundred years from now, maybe

746
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: even a thousand years from now, people are gonna have

747
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: to figure out what that statement means. And they're gonna

748
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: have to use context and clues and other writing. They're

749
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 1: gonna have to figure out so this is what And

750
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: so for us when we're thinking about this, I think

751
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: we have to remember that the Biblical authors are presuming

752
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: a narrative of a story that was already pre existent.

753
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: They just didn't feel the need to fill in those

754
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: dots because as soon as they say sons of God daughter,

755
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: they're thinking Mount Herman, the watchers, Oh, we know what

756
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: happened with the giants and the unholy union, and that's

757
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: what takes place.

758
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 3: Okay, So me connect with people of what we're talking about.

759
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: You're saying, in the beginning, in the garden of Eden,

760
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: there was not just human beings.

761
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 3: There were these gods, which we're gonna get to.

762
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: Yep. And when God says, let us make man, he's

763
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: kind of announcing this, so he's not just starting an

764
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: earthly family as a spiritual family. Get to Genesis six,

765
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: and these sons of God are these supernatural beings who

766
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 2: have rebelled against God in some fashion. We're not given

767
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 2: when or how that happened, right, but the nepheline come

768
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: from their union with human women. And so now you

769
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: have this household of God. Some of them have gone

770
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 2: bad and rebelled. Let's take it.

771
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: One more thing about Genesis six, which is very important

772
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: because once again the Bible has to interpret the Bible.

773
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: So you have both Jude and First Peter that are

774
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: actually quoting back and drawing on this Genesis sixth story

775
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: and the way that they quote the story. Once again,

776
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: they presume the anachic tradition that Second Temple of Literature

777
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: is actually playing into that storyline. So now you have

778
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: to deal with that is why would you and Peter

779
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: be thinking about these antelic beings and chains and tartarus

780
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: and then really making a direct quotation back to Genesis

781
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: six and once again presuming that we know the story

782
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: the Genesis six is already kind of embedded in. So

783
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: I just want to give the biblical Okay, so.

784
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: Get people watching, going hows Enock fit into this? Put

785
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: your questions in there. We're going live Tuesday because we

786
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: don't have time right now to go into depth, and

787
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: I know we can probably spend a we can spend

788
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 2: multiple hours any of these issues. I'm trying to draw

789
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: some threads for people. Really glad you brought that in.

790
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: You referenced Job a couple of times. How did Job

791
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: thirty eight just advance this general point about the household

792
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 2: of God?

793
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean so Job thirty eight is kind of

794
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: important for us because in Job thirty eight I can

795
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: kind of summarize it for us. Job thirty eight points

796
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: out to this moment where God asked, Job, like, yo,

797
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: where were you? That's my transaction, like you know, like

798
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: like yo, where we're so so Job, I'll just read it.

799
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: Where were you when I laid there's foundations? Tell me

800
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: if you understand who marked off its dimensions, surely you

801
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: know who stretched a measuring line across it, or what

802
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: were its footing sets, or who laid its corners done?

803
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 1: And this is the key. While the morning stars sang

804
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: together and all the angels shouted for joy. So this

805
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: is an indication that lets us know at the beginning

806
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: of creation, as God is given this his masterful brushstroke

807
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 1: by just breathing everything into you've got an audience that's

808
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: just like God is hitting homers right and left like

809
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 1: everything he does. The sun is brilliant, the moon, the sea,

810
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: and then the peak of all of creation is humanity.

811
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: And that's when these angelic beings are shouting for joy,

812
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: which for me, if we go back to Genesis one

813
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: twenty six and we go, well, the let us, it's

814
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: like it almost feels like God's like, yo, just watch

815
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: one boy to do check this. And then he goes

816
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: and he does it, and then everybody goes who you

817
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: know they should, which they should, and so once again

818
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: we're finding intertextual connection points and job. While this is

819
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: somewhat debated today, what we can know is that it

820
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: is a very early writing in terms of dating and publication,

821
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: which should tell us something.

822
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: Ok So, what's important about this is you're not just

823
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 2: saying I'm going to some passage in job tree back

824
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 2: into this. Verse four says where were you and I

825
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: laid the foundation of the earth? Joe or God is

826
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: speaking to Joe referring back to the moment of creation.

827
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: Verse seven.

828
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: This is the ESV when the morning stars saying together

829
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 2: and all the sons of.

830
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 3: God shouted for joy.

831
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: Now advances your argument to raise the question who are

832
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 2: these sons of God?

833
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 3: Are they angels? Are they deities?

834
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: We're going to get to that, but hopefully people are

835
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: making a connection. Okay, one more and the way you

836
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: connected that was great. This is a hugely important passage

837
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: is some eighty two.

838
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: Yep, we could do an entire episode on just Salmata Tu.

839
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: And this was the This was the passage that messed

840
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: up Mike, you know, when he read it for the

841
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: first time in the Hebrew Bible, and so Psalmitia two

842
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: is really important, and how we handle Psalmity two is

843
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: going to have direct impact on what you do with

844
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: GENII is six, and then what we do later with

845
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: Dearmy thirty two, eight through nine. I'll just read the text.

846
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: It's as that I'm reading from ESB. God has taken

847
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: his place in the divine council, so explicitly you have

848
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: reference to God, who's king in a council. Right in

849
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: the midst of the Hebrew word here is Elohim. I

850
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: want to be important. This precise precision matters in this, Okay.

851
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: Lohem is a categorical term for a disembodied spirit. One

852
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: of the things that Mike did really well was he

853
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: had these little catchphrases where he would say, Yahweh is Alohem,

854
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: but no other Aloheim could ever be Yahweh. So this

855
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: is not polytheism, this is not co creation, this is

856
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: not heresy. This is an idea that you have the

857
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: uncreated creator who creates different types of beings. One type

858
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: of those beings that are actually flesh on in different

859
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: ways are spiritual beings. So just the simple fact that

860
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: they're spiritual beings means that they have the categorical term Elohim.

861
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: In Biblical grammar, context determines usage. We get a little

862
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: bit for because we take an English word like god

863
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: and we create an entire definition around it, and now

864
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 1: we impose that English gloss back into a Hebrew term,

865
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: and we panic because we're like, that's not like, wait

866
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: a minute, let's go in the right trajectory. What did

867
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: the Hebrew term mean? So, Alohem, God singularly has taken

868
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: this place in the divine council in the midst of

869
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: the gods. This is plural, so you have to have

870
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: a singular god in the midst of a plural assembly.

871
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: And then this is an indictment against these Aloheim, how

872
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: long will you judge unjustly? So you've got an issue

873
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: of injustice? And then how long are you going to

874
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 1: show partiality to the wicked? So you're favoring the wicked people? Right,

875
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: And then he's like, this is what you should have done.

876
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: Give justice to the week and the fatherless, maintain the

877
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: right of the afflicted in the destitute. You were to

878
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: rescue the week and the needy, to deliver them from

879
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 1: the hand of the wicked. And then he says about

880
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: these beings, they have neither knowledge nor understanding. They walk

881
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken.

882
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: And then like if you just think about this theatrically,

883
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: can you imagine this moment or the High King of

884
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: Heaven then kind of declares upon them. I said, you

885
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: are God's Elohim. You are sons of the Most High.

886
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: That phrase sons of the most High is syntactically connected

887
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: to bene Elohim, which is sons of God. So you've

888
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: got familial language about angelic beings. I said, you are

889
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: god sons of the Most High. All of you. Nevertheless,

890
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: and this is the consequence, like men, you shall die

891
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: and fall like any prince. And I love verse eight,

892
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: and this actually advances my thesis in the book. The

893
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: last line says, arise, oh Elohim, judge the earth, for

894
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 1: you shall inherit all the nations. Sometimes I think we

895
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: think of Jesus like he's just hanging out in a

896
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: green room waiting for his grand appearance and the incarnation. Right,

897
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: It's like, nope, he's active, he's there, he's working. I

898
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: hold that the Angel of the Lord appearances, thought the

899
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: Old Testament is actually the preincarnate Christ. And right here,

900
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: who is this Alohim. It's almost like in a theatrical scenario,

901
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: you've got a figure who's standing off scene offset and

902
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: the entire time he's listening to this corruption in this chaos.

903
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: This is all played out through the minor prophets, right

904
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: Amos and Micah. And at the very end of it,

905
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: here's God the King who says, arise o Lohim, And

906
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: what is this Elohim to do to inherit all the nations,

907
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: to draw the families of the earth back into the

908
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 1: one household, which is where they were always to belong.

909
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: The big objection to this is often, well, no, this

910
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: sons of God phrase refers to human rulers. Well there,

911
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: we can go into a lot of details on this.

912
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: One of them is there's a guy named Julius Africanus

913
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: who is one of the first individuals and you know,

914
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: kind of the medieval time period earlier than Augustine, who

915
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 1: suggested set that view for Genesis six, and then also

916
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: kind of suggested, because of that view, you not have

917
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: to correlate that to Psalm eighty two to create cohesion. Right.

918
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,399
Speaker 1: Augustine was famous for the same thing Augustine suggested Psalm

919
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: eighty two was human rulers. But the problem with this

920
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: is a couple things. One, rulers, the Israelite religious rulers

921
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: were never given jurisdiction over the nations. That's a really

922
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: good point, right, So now you have an issue, and

923
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: the second one is just a question of coherence. Why

924
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: would it make any sense for human rulers to have

925
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: the consequence that they should die like men? This would

926
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: be like me Sean saying, Hey, Sean, you know the

927
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: consequence for you not eating for twenty four hours is

928
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: you're going to be hungry? Like what, of course I'm

929
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: going to be?

930
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: Can I challenge you on this because I was reading

931
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 2: your book YEP, and I thought, if it's speaking to

932
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: sons of gods that have authority like kings, they would

933
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: kind of assume that they're not like men. Right, So

934
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 2: I says you're going to die like men. It's basically

935
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: saying you're ordinary. Your power in your throne doesn't give

936
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: you any power against death. You're going to die like

937
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: all other men. How would you respond to that?

938
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: I would respond to I think that's a good pushback.

939
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a great pushback. I would just say,

940
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: but what does it mean to die like men? And

941
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: how is that phrase used elsewhere throughout scripture? Especially in

942
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: Isa fourteen and Ezekiel twenty eight it talks about the

943
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: consequence for this angelic being being sent down to shield

944
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: to haites. So there is a literal, there's a literality

945
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: to it of a spiritual being who changes status from

946
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: being you know, unlimited or having some kind of immortality,

947
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: whether it's conditional or nonconditional. But there's consequence to it,

948
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: and there's a literality of death to it. And I

949
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: think there's other passages of scripture that suggest, you know this,

950
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: this is what you're waiting for. Revelation four, you're waiting

951
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: these uh, these angelic beings and tartarists are waiting to

952
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: be transferred into the Lake of Hell into Gehenna, right, Ghina,

953
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: Like the lake of Fire was prepared for who angelic beings?

954
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: You know? So yeah, exactly. So I would just say

955
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: that's a that's a good, good pushback. But I just

956
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: think that when we're reading it through the rest of scripture,

957
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: it just it feels like this isn't just a gloss

958
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,760
Speaker 1: term of saying, hey, like men, you're gonna lose power.

959
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: It's like, no, no, no, like men, you're gonna die

960
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: like they die, like there's a literality to their death.

961
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 2: Which I think is totally fair because even I mean,

962
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 2: every king that's ever lived before Jesus died like every

963
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: other man. So do they really need to be reminded

964
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: of that? In the context is God has taken his

965
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: place in the divine council. That's the way Psalm eighty

966
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: two starts, so suggesting more here about the sons of God.

967
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: And there's a connection back to Job one and two.

968
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: In Job one and two, the sons of God are

969
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,919
Speaker 1: present in a divine council scene before the Hastan shows up.

970
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: And so once again you've got this same idea. This

971
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: is similar to Mikeia where you've got Mikeya having this

972
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 1: vision in the one Kings twenty two where he sees

973
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: a host of heaven. They're sitting to the right and

974
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,240
Speaker 1: to the left of God. You find this in Isaiah

975
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: six with the seraphim Daniel seventh nine through ten, where

976
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 1: the Ancient of Days takes a seat on a throne

977
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,439
Speaker 1: and there's holy ones that are attending him. So once

978
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: again the context seems to be a context of a

979
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: divine council cosmic scene, and we would have to make

980
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: some kind of shift where we'd say the first half

981
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: is that the second half is human rulers.

982
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is helpful. Let's go back to Genesis.

983
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 2: Okay, because if you ask somebody tell me about the

984
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,399
Speaker 2: rebellion in Genesis, it would always be Genesis chapter one.

985
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: You talked about this, Yep, we're at the rebellion would

986
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 2: be of course, geniis chapter three with the fall talked

987
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: about Genesis six. Now where we have we had the

988
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: human family maybe rebellion in Genesis three, and then the

989
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: divine family rebell These sons of God in Genesis chapter

990
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: six create the Nephilum, which is their offspring. Ye say,

991
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 2: there's a third rebellion in Babel, and these three rebellions

992
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: tie together this broader story.

993
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 3: That in the New Testament when we look.

994
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 2: At spiritual warfare, they're tying these threads back together.

995
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 3: So one more rebellion.

996
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 2: Tell us what's important in genis chapter eleven, of course,

997
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 2: the Tower of babyl and how this kind of fits

998
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 2: in the larger story you're taking.

999
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Genesis three is household rebellion. Internally, Genesis six

1000
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,439
Speaker 1: is about a transgression of domains. You've got these sons

1001
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: of God who are allotted. This is what's happening in

1002
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 1: the Nachic literature, and they transgress, they transgress their domain.

1003
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: Genesis eleven is going to be an issue of allotment rebellion.

1004
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: They were given a task to do, and yet they

1005
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: are devous about it. So in Genesis and you're like, wait,

1006
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: a minchel, we're in the world to even get and

1007
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: angels from Genesis eleven. So Genesis eleven is a story

1008
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: about the Tower of Babel, kind of one of those

1009
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: famous stories. Genesis ten darkly that precedes it gives you

1010
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: the Table of Nations. There's a scholarly debate on how

1011
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: to read Genesis ten and eleven, whether ten actually chronologically

1012
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 1: happens after eleven, or and then it's just placed before.

1013
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a prelude. I actually don't think

1014
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: that's the case. I actually think that Genesis ten should

1015
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: chronologically be placed before it because of the one lip

1016
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: of Genesis eleven, verse one. The anthropological kind of idea

1017
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: here is this concept called the lingua franca, which is

1018
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: the one lip it's like the one ring to rule

1019
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: them all kind of thing, right now, English is kind

1020
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,720
Speaker 1: of that. I was in India Sean like in August

1021
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: of last year with my family. Did everybody spoke English?

1022
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: It was wild like it was like in the main

1023
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: city everybody spoke English. You know, so you have the

1024
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: one language. What happens here is the people go into

1025
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: rebellion because they have an aim, an ambition that is

1026
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: not in connection with the task and the vocation that

1027
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: was given to them. They were told to go out

1028
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: and into the world, right, to expand the goodness of

1029
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: God out and into the world, not to build a

1030
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: monastic society. They get to a plane, Well, a plane

1031
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: has a problem. What is the problem? There are no

1032
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: mountains on planes. But we talked about earlier that mountains

1033
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: mattered because mountains is the place where God and humanity met.

1034
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: So where do the people do. They attempt to build

1035
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 1: what's called a ziggurut temple tower. In archaeological digs today

1036
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: you find them all over the place, and the ziggurut

1037
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: was actually a house of the deity. That's really important

1038
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: once we get into Ephesians. At the very top of

1039
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: the construction was a home the deity would come down to,

1040
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: and at the base would be the place where the

1041
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: priests would be, and there would be a staircase that

1042
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: would go all the way to the top. So what

1043
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: are the people trying to do. It's actually a little

1044
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: bit twofold one. They're trying to force God's hand, to

1045
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: force him to come down simultaneously in their own aim

1046
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 1: and their own ambition. Instead of making a name for God,

1047
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: they say, I want to make a name for myself

1048
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: for ourselves huge, right, So whose fame are we about?

1049
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: And so they go up to try to force God

1050
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: to come down. Really fascinating, the exact same phrase and

1051
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: Hebrew of let us in Genesis love and God says,

1052
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 1: let us come down, right, It's a copy and paste

1053
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: from the Hebrew of Genesis one twenty six. So right

1054
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: there we have a plural of majesty. We write, you

1055
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: have the host of heaven that are connected not based

1056
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: off of Genesis one through twenty six, and then you

1057
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: have the diversification of the tongues of Genesis eleven. Well,

1058
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: what happens the one language that knit them altogether is

1059
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: taken away. So imagine if Sean, you speak German, I

1060
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: speak Delugu. The people who are listening in they all

1061
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: speak I don't know French, but we all speak Hebrew together, right,

1062
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: But Hebrew is taken away who We're going to hang

1063
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: out with the people that speak our own distinct languages

1064
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: and will probably spread out and into the world. Right,

1065
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: That's exactly what happens Genesis eleven. The rebellion is a

1066
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 1: rebellion of pride and selfish ambition. God deals with a

1067
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 1: rebellion and still institutes his mission, which is ultimately the

1068
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 1: expansion of his image out and into the world. So

1069
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 1: even in the midst of rebellion, God is going to

1070
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: have his way in and through it. Right now, we

1071
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: get to this odd thing. You have a Marvel shirt

1072
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: on which I love.

1073
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:58,240
Speaker 2: I wore it intentionally because there's different gods or superheroes.

1074
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: It was a little of the backdrop, you know.

1075
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 3: I love it.

1076
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: In fact, I kind of think it's hilarious. We watched

1077
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: my family watch the Eternals, you know, and the Eternals

1078
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: it's horrible. But you know what's even more horrible is

1079
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: there's no creativity. They're just ripping off the Mesopotamian myth

1080
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: like they don't even change the name. They just call Tiomet,

1081
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, which is like the sea dragon of the

1082
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: Babylonian Epic creation story in the New Malish Anyway. Side note,

1083
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: So I loved iron Man. I loved the early movies,

1084
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 1: and I remember being in the theater and I remember

1085
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: after I can't remember which iron Man it was, but

1086
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,399
Speaker 1: it was when they found Thor's hammer in the end scene, right,

1087
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: the whole theater like lost its mind's like, oh my gosh,

1088
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: look what they're doing. I kind of read Dieter Army

1089
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: thirty two eight to nine as the post credit scene

1090
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: of Genesis eleven.

1091
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,800
Speaker 3: Okay, now let me cut in before we get de

1092
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 3: groonomy too.

1093
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna keep narrating this because I don't want people

1094
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 2: listening to get.

1095
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 3: Lost in some of the details here.

1096
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 2: So God creates and he announces in Genesis to his

1097
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 2: divine council and to you know, arguably to Aim as well.

1098
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 2: But it's not just a human family. There's a divine family.

1099
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 2: And then there's the rebellion in Genesis chapter three. Get

1100
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: to chapter and that's a human rebellion against God. Get

1101
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 2: to Genis chapter six. Now we have these divine beings,

1102
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 2: whatever they are, these sons of God having sex with

1103
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 2: the daughters of men. This nepheline you evil lineage comes

1104
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 2: out of this. There's a third rebellion in Genesis chapter eleven,

1105
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 2: where they're trying to force God's hand to make a

1106
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: name for themselves. He splits up their languages, so they

1107
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:39,720
Speaker 2: spread out according to their language, and people tie together,

1108
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 2: which in some ways when he said multiply and fill

1109
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 2: the earth in Genesis one, through their evil, he's accomplishing

1110
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 2: their means. Then Deuteronomy A thirty two eight nine, let

1111
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 2: me read it, and you can tell us what you

1112
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 2: think is happening. Here says when the Most High gave

1113
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 2: to the nations their inheritance, when he divine I did mankind,

1114
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 2: which is Genesis is eleven. He fixed the borders of

1115
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 2: the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

1116
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 2: But the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

1117
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 2: So he seems to divide the peoples according to the

1118
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 2: sons of God. But the Lord has his people, which

1119
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 2: of course comes next in Genesis twelve with Abraham.

1120
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 3: We'll get to that.

1121
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: Yep, what is going on dur army thirty two, and

1122
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:27,919
Speaker 2: how does this advance your case.

1123
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: Okay, So why is there so much chaos in the

1124
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: Old Testament? What is going on with what's going on

1125
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 1: with the conquest issues and Joshua? Why is David dealing

1126
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: with Goliath? Like what? Why is it so important throughout

1127
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: the Libticus? I just reading my Bible, reading Lybticus in

1128
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: nineteen and twenty of like, have nothing to do with molek,

1129
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: you know, and child's sacrifice And if you even this

1130
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: is a wild h I don't know. I'm listening to

1131
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: the Bible this year for the first time, and I

1132
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't catch this. Even to those that

1133
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: observe child sacrifice and say nothing about it are condemned,

1134
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: Okay that like that'll preach you see evil, you do

1135
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 1: nothing about it. You are held accountable, like you have responsibility.

1136
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: So where does all of this come from? What is

1137
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: the origin story of this? Dude Army thirty two eight

1138
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: and nine is the origin story for it. In my

1139
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: book Done in Battle, I refer to this, and I'm

1140
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: drawing from Heiser's work The Dude Army thirty two Worldview,

1141
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: which actually I think puts in perspective the nuances and

1142
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: the cosmic conflict that's taking place in the Old Testament

1143
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: that Jesus comes to deal with in the New Testament.

1144
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: So what happens here in Jeremy three two eight to

1145
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: nine is you've got the origin story of the rebellion

1146
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: of Babel, and you've got the nations that are dispersed.

1147
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: But what do arm three two eight nine let's us

1148
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: know is that God is still loving God. You actually

1149
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: find this, and all through rebellions, all the way through,

1150
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: is in the midst of human chaos and rebellion is

1151
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: a kind and compassion of God who remains just and

1152
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 1: shows compassion and mercy in the midst of that justice. Right. Two,

1153
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: these things are working together. Well, the same thing happens here.

1154
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: God doesn't want the peoples to be left alone unattended, right,

1155
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: and so he says, hey, and my language is very important.

1156
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: He allots to them, these sons of God as stewards

1157
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: or guardians of the people. Okay, they it is a

1158
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: delegated responsibility, delegated responsibility, and they're part of the Divine council.

1159
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: They have vocation and responsibility. This is an important role. Now,

1160
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: some of you when you're reading your Bible, depending on

1161
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 1: which your translation like CSB. I think even NIB you

1162
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: might be like Joel, my Bible doesn't say sons of God, right,

1163
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: which you're right. So this is important and I kind

1164
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: of get into the scholarship part of it. In the

1165
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: ESV translation, which Sean you and I read from, you'll

1166
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: notice there's a little footnote right next to sons of

1167
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: God and it says compare dead Sea scroll or Subtuagen

1168
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 1: says Masterotic texts say sons of Israel. So a very

1169
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: quick study on this, because I don't want people to

1170
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: be like, is this dude, like you know, lying or

1171
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: is he like making up stuff? And now can we

1172
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 1: not trust the Bible? No, that's not it at all.

1173
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: What actually happened is you have the Masoretic Text, the

1174
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: Hebrew text of the Bible, and in the Masterretic Text

1175
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 1: you have a textual emendation, a variant, and in it

1176
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: says sons of Israel. Lots of scholarship on why that

1177
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: phrase was used. I tend to think it has to

1178
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: do with the good ambition, the good desire to preserve monotheism.

1179
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: Later inscribal history. Okay, the challenge that we have is

1180
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: the Septuagint, the Hebrew Bible transcendent to Greek, which actually

1181
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: dates earlier than the Masoretic text. The Septuagen actually has

1182
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 1: the angels of God. Here. There's a brilliant New Testament

1183
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:38,919
Speaker 1: scholar named GB Cared, who reading the Septuagen goes, wait

1184
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: a minute, something happened here in the Hebrew Bible. There's

1185
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 1: probably an alternative reading, and the most accurate reading should

1186
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: be sons of God. What's fascinating is Cared made this

1187
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 1: note in his New Testament Theology book prior to the

1188
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. When the Dead Sea

1189
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: Scrolls were found, it affirmed Caard's hypothesis based off of

1190
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: the Subtuagen and a firm the Septugan reading because of

1191
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: the Dead Sea scrolls are dated much earlier than the

1192
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: heat way the Masoretic texts. And I mean, then you go, oh,

1193
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: the overwhelming weight of evidence is that the accurate reading

1194
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: here is sons of God.

1195
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 2: The textual earlier evidence set Tuagint and.

1196
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 3: Scrolls weighs the sons of God. Yes, okay, important?

1197
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 2: So did I miss anything on Deuteronomy thirty two? That's key, because.

1198
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: Yes, the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

1199
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: So he gives the nations over to stewardship, but he

1200
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 1: keeps the people in and unto himself. This is why

1201
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,919
Speaker 1: Genesis twelve matters. My Hebrew scholar friends, I always argue

1202
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: with them. One of them is doing named Hakim Bradley.

1203
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: He used to work for the Bible Project. Hakim. Shout

1204
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,439
Speaker 1: out to Hakim. He's brilliant. Hawkim's a Hebrew Bible scholar guy,

1205
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: and he and I debate this all the time because

1206
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: he's always like Genesis. Hebrew scholars love Genesis one through eleven.

1207
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: They're like Genesis one through eleven recapitulates entire story of

1208
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 1: the Bible.

1209
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 3: You got it right, because it's so tough.

1210
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the I kind of pushed back, I'm like, yo,

1211
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: why do you always ignore Abraham? Well, I actually think

1212
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: it should be Genesis one through twelve because twelve book

1213
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: ends and gives the solution to the issue of the

1214
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: rebellion of Genesis eleven and Genesis twelve. I know you

1215
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: want to get here is the promise that God makes

1216
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: to Abram out of irv the Chaldeans by way of Haran.

1217
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 2: But okay, So that's that's important because you said in

1218
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 2: the rebellion of Genesis eleven, they're making a name for themselves,

1219
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 2: and God is like, nope, I'm going to divide your language,

1220
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 2: divide you up into allotted portions according to the sons

1221
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 2: of God, which you suggest. And again we'll get to this,

1222
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 2: that there's a certain gods of these realms. So this

1223
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 2: changes the way we think about spiritual warfare. And again

1224
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 2: we'll get back to that they rebel against God.

1225
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 3: So now there's God's nation of Israel, and.

1226
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: Part of the spiritual warfare is what makes them distinct

1227
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 2: and right and true in contrast with these other nations

1228
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 2: and people groups ruled by other gods. But what God

1229
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 2: says to Abraham, it's the reverse of Genesis eleven. I

1230
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 2: will make your name great. Yes, make that connection. And

1231
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 2: why where he's from is so important.

1232
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you've got the gods of the nations. There's

1233
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 1: a great scholar named doctor Block who wrote a book

1234
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: called Gods of the Nations. And if we're in like

1235
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: a seminary class right now, I'm kind of trying to

1236
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: draw this out for you in a triangle that you've

1237
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: got this idea in the engineer Eastern world, where you

1238
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: have the god or the deity, you've got the people,

1239
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 1: and you've got the land. So what Jomy third two

1240
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 1: eight to nine lets us know is that the allotment

1241
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 1: is gods the deities that are connected to land. Who

1242
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: is connected to people, which is what is creating chaos

1243
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: all the way throughout? You know, It's like God has

1244
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: a plan for Israel to give them the promise on

1245
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: the problems it's occupied by other people, and now that

1246
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: they're gonna have to do war. This is the whole

1247
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 1: Egyptian right, God is not just dealing with the Egyptians

1248
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: explicitly throught Exodus. It's like, and I'm gonna deal with

1249
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: their gods as well. Each of the ten plagus is

1250
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 1: aimed at one of the gods of the Egyptian pantheon.

1251
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 1: It's kind of fascinating. Now, why is this all important?

1252
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: For Genesis twelve? In Genesis twelve we about the story

1253
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 1: of Abram. Abram is said to be called from her

1254
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: of the Chaldeans, and then he makes a pit stop

1255
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 1: in a place called heron right, why is all this important?

1256
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 1: Genesis eleven is the story about the Tower of Babel

1257
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: that project falters and fails, but a civilization still comes

1258
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: up in that area. And what is that civilization? It's Babylon.

1259
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 1: It's Babel, right, fascinating r of the Chaldeans, if you

1260
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: plot it on a geographical map, is roughly the vicinity

1261
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: of Babel. So what does God do I think this

1262
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 1: is like? So genius Yahweh says, oh, out of the

1263
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: epicenter of rebellion, I'm going to call one family to

1264
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 1: be my family as a missional witness to redeem and

1265
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: restore and to rescue all the families of the world. Right.

1266
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 1: And this is where you get the Abraham m Covenant

1267
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 1: of Genesis twelve, Genesis fifteen, seventeen twenty two. That's restated.

1268
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 1: Why are irv the Kaldeans and Haran so important? Here's

1269
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: why Abram goes out of herv of the Kaldians. But

1270
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: he makes a pit stop in Haran. When Abram goes

1271
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 1: out of her of the Kaldeans, He's got two people

1272
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 1: with him, his family members. He's got his father, Tara,

1273
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: and he's got his brother with him as well, right Nehor.

1274
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 1: What's really interesting is in Heran he pitstops Tara and

1275
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: his brother Dip They're like, we're not going with you.

1276
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: And Abram has to follow the called the Lord by himself.

1277
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: Why do they dip I make the argument in the

1278
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 1: Unseen Battle that the gods of the nations are still active.

1279
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 1: And in both Irv the Chaldeans and in Heron there

1280
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 1: was a massive temple to the moon goddess sin And

1281
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 1: there is this idea that if you leave the land

1282
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 1: that is protect by the deity, you leave the protection

1283
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 1: of the deity. And if you leave the protection of

1284
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 1: the deity, now you're vulnerable to the other gods, the

1285
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 1: other spiritual beings that are out there. And so for

1286
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 1: Abram to follow the call of Yahweh was so this

1287
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: is why he's called a man of faith, because he

1288
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 1: is turning his back literally, and this is what spiritual

1289
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: warfare is, turning your back literally on the spiritual beings,

1290
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 1: the God's the nations that want tolicit your worship, that

1291
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: wants you to put your trust in them. And it

1292
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: said says, no, I'm going to follow Yahweh. The Hebrew

1293
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 1: word shuv, which is the word that we have for repentance.

1294
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: It means turning away from evil and turning towards God.

1295
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: The problem with the Israelites consistently is they love to

1296
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 1: turn away from one evil. They just turned toward another exactly.

1297
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: And so what Abram models for us is no. And

1298
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 1: then the Abraham Covenant is so vital because now through

1299
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: the people of Israel, which come out of Abram, there

1300
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 1: is a plan and a path for the nations of

1301
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: the world to be subsumed back into the family of God.

1302
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: Right quins for rebellion, but a path for restitution and restoration.

1303
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 3: I love it, amen.

1304
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 2: So God's rescue plan through the person of Abraham is

1305
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 2: to become a nation that will bless the nations, because

1306
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 2: God loves all nations and wants to restore all nations.

1307
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 3: Okay.

1308
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 2: So like in some ways, fast forward to the time

1309
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 2: of Jesus and you've got and of course the generation too. Afterwards,

1310
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 2: you have Christians called atheists because they will not worship

1311
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 2: these other gods. They weren't atheists like materialists or naturalists.

1312
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 2: They worshiped God and they were called atheist because they

1313
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:42,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't worship the lobo gods. Okay, So that really plays

1314
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 2: into the kind of idea that you're talking about. But

1315
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:49,160
Speaker 2: the pushback is okay, wait a minute, are these gods

1316
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 2: actually real? So fe Corinthians eight four through six, And

1317
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 2: I know you deal with this in the Unseen Battle.

1318
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 2: While I'm reading it, i read Hides. This went through

1319
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 2: my mind a bunch of times. It's as this Paul writes.

1320
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 2: He says, therefore is the eating of food offer to idols?

1321
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 2: We know that an idol has no real existence, and

1322
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:11,120
Speaker 2: there's no god but one, although there may be so

1323
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 2: called gods in heaven and on earth, as indeed there

1324
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 2: are many gods and many lords. Yeah, for us, there's

1325
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 2: one God, the Father, from all things and for whom

1326
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:22,639
Speaker 2: we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, room all things

1327
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 2: and through all whom exists. Seems like he's saying, these

1328
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:28,680
Speaker 2: gods or idols have no existence. We talk about them,

1329
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 2: but really there's one true God.

1330
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 1: How would you respond, Yeah, I would say that's a

1331
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 1: good observation, And I think that we need to read

1332
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 1: the text for what it says and do our best

1333
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: not to impose something that the text itself is not saying.

1334
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 1: So agreed in the ancient once again worldview, I think

1335
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 1: this is why that context actually really matters. There's a

1336
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: sense that there's a distinction between the idol which is

1337
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 1: representative of the deity and the actual presence or the

1338
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 1: ontological truth of that actual deity. And so what Paul

1339
01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:59,639
Speaker 1: is getting at here in First Corinthians eight four through

1340
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 1: six is the absurdity of the presence of an idol

1341
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: of like. And this is actually echoing back to Isaiah

1342
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 1: and Jeremiah and other places where it's like, you know,

1343
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: you fashion out of a piece of wood an idol,

1344
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:15,120
Speaker 1: You sit by a fire, you do all this work, right,

1345
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 1: you you you worship and bow to it, and then

1346
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 1: you throw the same piece of wood back into a

1347
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 1: fire and it burns to keep you warmer, to cook

1348
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 1: your bread, or to like. It's mocking it. Right. So

1349
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:29,479
Speaker 1: there's a difference between a claim of non existence versus

1350
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 1: the claim of non superiority or or or non comparability.

1351
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 1: And so what's happening here in Firs Criinton's eight four

1352
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: through six is a claim that says the idol itself,

1353
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: which in that worldview was the house of the deity,

1354
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 1: that idol itself has no power, that that's a thing

1355
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 1: that can be tossed. This is so unlike yahweh, right,

1356
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 1: which I actually think is one of the reasons why

1357
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: God early on is like I don't need a house.

1358
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 1: Don't build me a house. I don't like all of

1359
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 1: the gods of the nations, they all need houses. And

1360
01:09:57,920 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 1: that's not like I don't need And even when the

1361
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,840
Speaker 1: temple is tre the temple is not a technically a house.

1362
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:05,680
Speaker 1: It's the footstool of God, which I actually think is

1363
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 1: a fun like little passive regressive jab. But all the

1364
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 1: other god sapt the nations, you know, So this is

1365
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 1: the one thing. And again we need to read First

1366
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:18,679
Speaker 1: Corinthians eight four through six in light of one Corinthians

1367
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 1: ten twenty. So what this First Corinthians ten twenty says,

1368
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: no I implied that what pagans sacrifice they offers to

1369
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 1: they offered a demons. So, just a couple chapters later,

1370
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 1: Paul says, but hey, demons are real, right, So the

1371
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 1: idol itself is useless, meaningless as makes no sense. But

1372
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: don't forget this. No I implied that what pagan sacrificed

1373
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 1: they offered to demons, and not to God, not to yahweh.

1374
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: I do not want you to be participants with demons.

1375
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 1: You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the

1376
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 1: cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of

1377
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 1: the Lord and the table of demons. So why would

1378
01:10:55,560 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 1: Paul talk about an object that you know, or spiritual

1379
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 1: beings that have nonexistence, but then say, actually, know, what

1380
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: you're doing is a question of allegiance, because now you're

1381
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: showing your allegiance if you've been baptized, if you've been

1382
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 1: you know, you take communion, like if you're showing these

1383
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 1: symbols of allegiance to Yahweh, but then you participate in

1384
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 1: in offering food offer to demons. This is an issue

1385
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 1: and so there's actually a sense here where yeah, the

1386
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 1: idol itself is meaningless, it's nothing. It comes to ruin,

1387
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: but that doesn't reject the ontological reality of the spiritual

1388
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 1: beings speaking case.

1389
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 2: So when it says there may be so called gods

1390
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 2: in heaven on earth, he's not saying they're so called

1391
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 2: because they don't exist.

1392
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 3: You're arguing it's almost like an insult to these gods.

1393
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 3: They are just not the real God.

1394
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 2: They pale in comparison to the One God, the Father

1395
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 2: whom all things come. So it's not a claim about

1396
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 2: non existence, it's more of a claim about comparison. Nonability

1397
01:11:57,080 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 2: called gods because they got nothing on the once you're.

1398
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 1: Gout, yeah, one hundred percent. I mean you've got language

1399
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 1: through dinonomy, like did Army four thirty five in Dinarmy

1400
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 1: sixty four that talks about the phrase that there are

1401
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:11,560
Speaker 1: no gods beside me. This is usually an objection to

1402
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 1: this whole idea of gods, but we have to use

1403
01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 1: this terminology how it's used exogetically throughout the rest of

1404
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 1: those passages. So you have a saying in Isaiah forty

1405
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 1: seven eight, which has the same literary and immediate context

1406
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 1: of Isaiah forty three of there are no other gods

1407
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:32,560
Speaker 1: beside me, But in this one it's a statement of

1408
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 1: Babylon saying there's no one beside me the city of Babylon, like, oh,

1409
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 1: there's no one beside me. But clearly this doesn't mean

1410
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 1: that that's a statement that there are no other cities exist.

1411
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:45,560
Speaker 1: It's an issue of comparability. The same is done in

1412
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:48,719
Speaker 1: Zephania two fifteen, which makes the exact same claim about

1413
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,839
Speaker 1: the city of Ninevah. And so this is exaggerative language.

1414
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:55,120
Speaker 1: This is intentional to point at the creator and the

1415
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:57,960
Speaker 1: creation distinction and say that there are no other gods

1416
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 1: beside me is to say they're none that can compete, compare,

1417
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 1: or even be in my same sphere of existence. There

1418
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 1: are created things. I'm the uncreated creator, and.

1419
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 2: All these other gods lowercase g are created things and

1420
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 2: belong in that category.

1421
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:13,679
Speaker 3: That's a important distinction.

1422
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 2: By the way, have you done a deep dive on

1423
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,719
Speaker 2: like First Corinthians eight and ten? If most scholars agree

1424
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:21,720
Speaker 2: with you on this is this I'm not saying it's

1425
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 2: determined by numbers, but is this a fringe view or

1426
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 2: is this a pretty accepted view amongst scholars for First

1427
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 2: Corinthians eight or you'rec Sean, I haven't done a deep dive.

1428
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 1: No, I mean it's been a while since I've worked

1429
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 1: on this, but for the most part, this is a

1430
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:38,640
Speaker 1: pretty popular view on that. So there are definitely some

1431
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 1: scholars would disagree with it. But I think if you

1432
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 1: look at a whole list of New Testament commentaries on Corinthians,

1433
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:46,599
Speaker 1: then you're gonna see this as a very.

1434
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 3: Viable precedent for it. And people debate.

1435
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 2: Okay, enough, all right, at this point, I know some

1436
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:55,400
Speaker 2: people should be tracking with us and probably have more

1437
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 2: questions than when they started with put him in the comments.

1438
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 2: You can email me questions at Sean mcdaldott org. We're

1439
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 2: gonna go live at four thirty. We can go back

1440
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,840
Speaker 2: to Genesis six, we can go to Deuronomy eleven, we

1441
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 2: can go to Job thirty eight, the Deuteronomy thirty two worldview.

1442
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 2: But right now, let's kind of shift to what this means.

1443
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 2: If you're right about this, what this means? So like,

1444
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:23,280
Speaker 2: how should we think differently about spiritual warfare? If there

1445
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 2: are these gods that exist in different realms of different peoples.

1446
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:30,000
Speaker 2: How does that change our approach?

1447
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:32,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think one we have to ask, well,

1448
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 1: what does this mean about the cross? Like what does

1449
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 1: this mean about what Jesus came to do? And I

1450
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: would just read Ephesians two eighteen through twenty two, which

1451
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: is the thesis of my book for through Christ. Through Him,

1452
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 1: we both have access in one spirit to the father

1453
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,640
Speaker 1: paternal language. So then you're no longer strangers and aliens,

1454
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,680
Speaker 1: but you're fellow citizens with the saints. The Greek word

1455
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 1: they're saying, sahagas, I think often we just think of humanity.

1456
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 1: That same word is used of angelic beings. I actually

1457
01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:00,880
Speaker 1: think Paul's playing a little bit of a play on

1458
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,839
Speaker 1: words here of saying, hey, you're members of the household

1459
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:07,760
Speaker 1: of God built on the foundation of apostles and the prophets, Christ,

1460
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 1: Jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole structure

1461
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:14,160
Speaker 1: being joined together grows into Holy Temple and the Lord

1462
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:17,400
Speaker 1: in him. You're also being built together into the dwelling

1463
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:20,400
Speaker 1: place for God by the Spirit. Why is all this

1464
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 1: so important? Because what happens to the powers? So there's

1465
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 1: a lot that we haven't even gone into, which is

1466
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: Paul's language of powers, principalities, and authorities in the New Testament.

1467
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: They are categorically similar beings to the sons of God

1468
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 1: of the Old Testament. And the reason why we can

1469
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 1: draw that conclusion is a grammar connection to Daniel chapter ten,

1470
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:45,040
Speaker 1: which is the Prince of Persia, the Prince of Greece.

1471
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:47,840
Speaker 1: You've got geopolitical warfare, which is what puts through Army

1472
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:50,799
Speaker 1: thirty two eight to nine on our map on display

1473
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 1: for us of these gods of the nations working behind

1474
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 1: the scenes. And then the language of Prince, the Sebtuagint

1475
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 1: and even more consists lead that Theodosian text uses Arkhan

1476
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 1: for Prince Prince of Persia, Prince of Greece. Well, that's

1477
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:09,080
Speaker 1: the same word that Paul is using when he's talking

1478
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 1: about the powers and principalities and right, So in Paul's mind,

1479
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: I think he's actually a good Jewish boy, and he's

1480
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:19,600
Speaker 1: drawing back on his Hebrew roots in that context. And

1481
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:22,640
Speaker 1: so why does this matter? Because at the Cross, the

1482
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:28,040
Speaker 1: dark powers are stripped their legal kind of allotment to

1483
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:31,200
Speaker 1: the nations. Their ability to blind the nations has now

1484
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 1: been stripped away from them. They can no longer keep

1485
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 1: the people in bondage and to keep them away from Yahweh.

1486
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:43,240
Speaker 1: Every battle Sean has a prize, Every battle has a prize.

1487
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 1: So what is the prize for the cosmic battle that

1488
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 1: you and I are in. It's always the people. It's

1489
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:50,680
Speaker 1: been about the people. It is about the people. It

1490
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 1: will be about the people tomorrow. If you just open

1491
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,640
Speaker 1: up your social media today and you look at the

1492
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:59,800
Speaker 1: amount of chaos that's taking place in our world, from politics,

1493
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 1: to social justice issues to even the chaos inside of

1494
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:08,080
Speaker 1: the local church. This is all a fight for people

1495
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:11,800
Speaker 1: and their love and their ambitions. And and so, like

1496
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:15,480
Speaker 1: what happens at the Cross, at the Cross, Jesus disarms

1497
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:18,760
Speaker 1: the dark powers and he takes away their ability to

1498
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 1: blind the nation. So how does this impact our spiritual warfare?

1499
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 1: This is where I probably differ from some out there

1500
01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: that are very passionate about like demon exorcisms and power

1501
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:33,920
Speaker 1: encounters and deliverance ministries. Now, I think there's a place

1502
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:35,639
Speaker 1: for that, but I think we need to think about

1503
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:38,560
Speaker 1: this normative and non normative, and what is normative. What

1504
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 1: is normative is the Gospel. This is why in Ephesian six,

1505
01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 1: Paul gives us language of defense to stand that we're

1506
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:49,280
Speaker 1: equipped with these tools so that we can take on

1507
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: the onslaught of the fiery darts of the enemy. Nowhere

1508
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 1: in the scriptures, particularly through the through the pastorals, do

1509
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 1: we find like this command for believers to be demon hunters, right,

1510
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 1: like to be exorcists hunters like we just And I

1511
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:07,080
Speaker 1: think there's a reason why the command given to us

1512
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:10,320
Speaker 1: is the great commission, go and make disciples. It is

1513
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 1: the very rebellion of Babel and Genesis eleven. They were

1514
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 1: not doing taking the name of God and the image

1515
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 1: of God and spreading it out into the world. It

1516
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:21,400
Speaker 1: is an affirmation of Acts Chapter two and Pentecost right,

1517
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:24,639
Speaker 1: which funny thing if you look the list of nations

1518
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,960
Speaker 1: in Acts chapter two, that mirrors the list of nations

1519
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:28,960
Speaker 1: in Genesis chapter ten.

1520
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 3: It's amazing parallel verse yeah, babble.

1521
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's reinstituting the Aman ambition always for the people.

1522
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,280
Speaker 1: And so I would say, how this reframes how we

1523
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 1: think about spiritual warfare is that it puts us back

1524
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:48,920
Speaker 1: into our into our goal, and into that momentum of

1525
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 1: gospel proclamation that we ought to proclaim. This is claus

1526
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 1: since one thirteen. Every time somebody goes from death to life,

1527
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 1: they're transferred from the domain of darkness into the Kingdom

1528
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:01,599
Speaker 1: of God. And this is what Ephesians two eighteen through

1529
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,480
Speaker 1: twenty two is saying. The Temple of God is constructing

1530
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 1: at the tier of Babbel. It was bricks and mortar,

1531
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:09,120
Speaker 1: and they're trying to force God to come down. But

1532
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:11,680
Speaker 1: Imphuesians two eighteen through twenty two, it's fascinating. It's a

1533
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: temple structure. But this time you don't have bricks and mortar.

1534
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,000
Speaker 1: You've got the nations of the world. And now we're

1535
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:20,680
Speaker 1: not forcing God to come down. God lovingly desires to

1536
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 1: in dwell the people of God as this holy dwelling place,

1537
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 1: and now we're a royal priesthood. And so I think

1538
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:30,879
Speaker 1: it caused us to faithfulness and proclaiming and preaching the Gospel,

1539
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 1: to live it with our life and to speak it

1540
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 1: with our words in all the places of the influence

1541
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 1: that we have, from the car line waiting to pick

1542
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:42,800
Speaker 1: up your kids, to your vocation in your office, to

1543
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:44,880
Speaker 1: your And I think this is a big one today, Sean,

1544
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 1: through your actions on social media, your comments and your

1545
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 1: lack of comments, how you position yourself, that posture of

1546
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 1: humility of you know, trying to point people to the

1547
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,320
Speaker 1: goodness of Jesus. And so I think all of these

1548
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:01,800
Speaker 1: things are heart of spiritual warfare. But it would be

1549
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 1: a miss for us to bypass gospel proclamation so we

1550
01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 1: can deal with demons. In fact, when we do gospel proclamation,

1551
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 1: you're gonna deal with demonic things anyways.

1552
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:16,600
Speaker 2: You know. Interesting, So some people go, oh, I'm disappointed

1553
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:20,240
Speaker 2: because like these videos if I do something like talking

1554
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 2: with an exorcist or somebody who had a demon this side,

1555
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:25,000
Speaker 2: and like we are drawn to this and it's fascinating.

1556
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:28,280
Speaker 2: It's like, here's evidence of the supernatural, and in some

1557
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:32,800
Speaker 2: fashion it is clear evidence of the supernatural. You're saying,

1558
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 2: there's a place for that, and we need that. But

1559
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 2: sharing the Gospel itself is a part of the unseen

1560
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:44,800
Speaker 2: battle and proclaiming the authority of what Christ has accomplished

1561
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,680
Speaker 2: on the Cross and the resurrection and engaging in this

1562
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 2: cosmic battle. So it's almost like we think, well, demonic experience,

1563
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 2: that's supernatural. What comes to sharing the gospel and loving

1564
01:20:56,080 --> 01:20:59,080
Speaker 2: our neighbors. We don't view that as being supernatural.

1565
01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 3: You are like, I'm out.

1566
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,280
Speaker 2: If we knew what was going on not visibly, we

1567
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:08,879
Speaker 2: would see that that is a spiritual, supernatural, cosmic encounter.

1568
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 3: That's a radical shift.

1569
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 2: Your inviting is just to see differently, ye obsol that

1570
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:17,639
Speaker 2: said one this is this is one of my favorite

1571
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:19,719
Speaker 2: takeaways from your book. I always like it when people

1572
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 2: tell me that, whether I intended that or not. But

1573
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:26,760
Speaker 2: you're talking about how going back to these rebellions, what

1574
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:29,640
Speaker 2: the rebellions do is they divide us in God and

1575
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 2: they divide people. And so when we fast forward to

1576
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:39,920
Speaker 2: the New Testament, Paul's multi ethnic church now is the

1577
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 2: reverse of that. And of course we see it in Ephesians.

1578
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 2: And the theme of Ephesians is about unity. So why

1579
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 2: would the unity within the church amidst our differences be

1580
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,040
Speaker 2: such a part of the cosmic battle we need to

1581
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 2: engage in today.

1582
01:21:57,720 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is Ephesians Chap.

1583
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 2: Three.

1584
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:03,560
Speaker 1: It talks about the mystery of Christ. You know, so

1585
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 1: in verse six, the mysteries that the Gentiles are fellow heirs,

1586
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:09,719
Speaker 1: members of the same body and partakers of the promise

1587
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 1: of Christ in Christ Jesus through the Gospel. And then

1588
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 1: if you go down to verse ten and says so

1589
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:18,960
Speaker 1: that through the church this is wild So that I

1590
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:21,160
Speaker 1: think the most important proposition in the Bible is the

1591
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 1: proposition through you know, it's necessary for the Israelites to

1592
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 1: go through the Red Sea. They experience the power of God.

1593
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:28,160
Speaker 1: They got to go through the wilderness to meet the

1594
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:31,400
Speaker 1: provision of God. Yeah, exactly, so I think, so look

1595
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 1: at this, so that through the church, the manifold, the

1596
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 1: Greek word they're probably poculacid is the same word in

1597
01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:41,679
Speaker 1: the subsitutionion that's used of Joseph's color code of many colors.

1598
01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:45,280
Speaker 1: It has in mind a beautiful array of flowers. Right,

1599
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,360
Speaker 1: So that through the church the manifold wisdom of God

1600
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:52,400
Speaker 1: might now be made this is wild, may now be

1601
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:55,680
Speaker 1: made known to the rulers and the authorities. Who are

1602
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 1: the rulers and authorities. These are the fallen sons of

1603
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:02,240
Speaker 1: God of the Old Testament in the heavenly places. This

1604
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 1: was according to the eternal purpose that He realized in Christ,

1605
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:09,680
Speaker 1: Jesus our Lord. And so as you and I are

1606
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 1: faithful in proclaiming the Gospel, as we embody the Abrahamic

1607
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:17,479
Speaker 1: Covenant of Genesis twelve, fifteen, seventeen, and twenty two, as

1608
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 1: the church continues to grow in a multi ethnic, multicultural,

1609
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:26,400
Speaker 1: multi generational reality, as is as applicable in the context

1610
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:29,759
Speaker 1: and the location that you're at. This is a winsome

1611
01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 1: witness to the dark powers. It is a reminder to

1612
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:35,880
Speaker 1: them every day of their failure at the cross. One

1613
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:38,640
Speaker 1: of my favorite pastors is in First Corinthians, where Paul's like, Yo,

1614
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 1: if the rulers and authorities knew what they were doing,

1615
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:45,559
Speaker 1: they would have never sent Jesus to the cross, right,

1616
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:48,960
Speaker 1: And I love that. And it's almost like I think

1617
01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:50,760
Speaker 1: of it. I'm a biblical theology. I love to think

1618
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 1: of like reversals. I think of it of Haman and Mordecai,

1619
01:23:54,439 --> 01:23:56,560
Speaker 1: Like it's almost like a throwback to that. You know.

1620
01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:59,559
Speaker 1: Haman's like, I'm gonna get Mordecai and I'm gonna build

1621
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:01,439
Speaker 1: a gallow. So he's going to die on those things.

1622
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,240
Speaker 1: And in the end he gets hung on the very

1623
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 1: gallows that he created. And I just think about the

1624
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:10,240
Speaker 1: dark powers, like all the way back from Assyria and Persia,

1625
01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:12,479
Speaker 1: and like the Romans don't invent the cross, they just

1626
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:15,680
Speaker 1: perfect the death of the cross. But there's this thing

1627
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:18,639
Speaker 1: called the cross that has been almost implanted in human

1628
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 1: history to be the ultimate sign of defeat and of

1629
01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:26,040
Speaker 1: disaster and devastation, and all the wild Jesus is marched

1630
01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 1: across the dark powers working through human systems and structures,

1631
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:32,599
Speaker 1: the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Roman government, like it's

1632
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:35,479
Speaker 1: like we got him. And in the end, the dark

1633
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:38,400
Speaker 1: powers were hung themselves in the very cross that they

1634
01:24:38,479 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 1: tried to hang Jesus on. And so why does the

1635
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:44,960
Speaker 1: multi ethnic church matter? Why does unity matter in the

1636
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 1: church today? Because it puts on display the victory of Jesus.

1637
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:52,000
Speaker 1: And I would, just as a word of pastoral caution,

1638
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:59,160
Speaker 1: suggest when we intentionally are unintentionally participate in activity that

1639
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:01,799
Speaker 1: is unbecoming of the people of God that creates division

1640
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 1: and dissension. We are in a way hindering the proclamation

1641
01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:11,800
Speaker 1: of the Gospel because I think there is a world

1642
01:25:11,880 --> 01:25:14,519
Speaker 1: that is desperate to know could the story of Jesus

1643
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:17,479
Speaker 1: actually be true? And the First Entry Church the church,

1644
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 1: and Corn the Church, and Glacia the Church in emphasis.

1645
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:22,400
Speaker 1: The wildest thing about that church was you had people

1646
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 1: who hated each other, are different ethnic, cultural and social backgrounds,

1647
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:28,120
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, because of their love for Jesus,

1648
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 1: came together in Acts chapter two, had everything in common

1649
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:33,599
Speaker 1: and gave to all the believers as they had in need.

1650
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:38,640
Speaker 1: It's like man like that is like spiritual warfare, and

1651
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:40,720
Speaker 1: then a very real, tangible way that breaks into our

1652
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 1: world that I don't think we should overlook.

1653
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 2: I love that that is a sober warning because actually

1654
01:25:47,640 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 2: mourn how divided we are as a church. And everyone's

1655
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 2: going to agree that there's some issues we should divide

1656
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 2: on and some issues we shouldn't divide on. But the

1657
01:25:57,040 --> 01:25:59,920
Speaker 2: way we divide and the failure to divide on as

1658
01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:03,800
Speaker 2: essential issues is where I think Paul would pull his

1659
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:07,519
Speaker 2: hair out and would just mourn this. You know you

1660
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 2: mentioned Marvel movies earlier. Avengers Chapter one, the bad guy

1661
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 2: is Loki, who's the Satan type figure. He possesses people,

1662
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 2: wants Earthlings to worship him, and of course his strategies

1663
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:21,880
Speaker 2: to turn the Hulk against the Avengers, because if they're

1664
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:25,080
Speaker 2: fighting each other, they can't fight him. I don't know

1665
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:27,040
Speaker 2: if they did that intentionally or not, but I'm watching

1666
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:28,280
Speaker 2: this going whoa.

1667
01:26:28,160 --> 01:26:28,639
Speaker 3: Wait a minute.

1668
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,799
Speaker 2: Even at the end of that one iron man's willing

1669
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:35,040
Speaker 2: to lay down his life. He doesn't, but it's foreshadowing what,

1670
01:26:35,160 --> 01:26:40,600
Speaker 2: of course happens in endgames exactly. That's that reality is

1671
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 2: right there in the scriptures, and that is a cosmic

1672
01:26:43,520 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 2: battle we're involved in. I have two more questions for you,

1673
01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:48,680
Speaker 2: but here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna wait on

1674
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 2: these two questions until Tuesday. I want to ask you about,

1675
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:56,200
Speaker 2: if there's this divine council, how should we think differently

1676
01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:01,200
Speaker 2: about Heaven. Don't answer right now about that. I also

1677
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 2: want to know where do you disagree with Heiser. If

1678
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,240
Speaker 2: you do, why, But I want you to bring that

1679
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 2: back Tuesday. Folks watching listening to this, write down your

1680
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:12,920
Speaker 2: questions if you have challenges about Heiser, if something we've

1681
01:27:12,960 --> 01:27:14,920
Speaker 2: said today you have objections to it. By the way,

1682
01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:17,160
Speaker 2: I was just doing a little search while we were talking.

1683
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:20,439
Speaker 2: If you search like Deuteronomy third thirty two worldview critique,

1684
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:23,479
Speaker 2: all these articles come up critiquing it. So I'd invite

1685
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 2: people to watch this, pick up a copy of your book,

1686
01:27:26,479 --> 01:27:28,760
Speaker 2: bring your tough questions and your objections. We might not

1687
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:31,240
Speaker 2: settle at all, but we will try to clarify and

1688
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:34,519
Speaker 2: bring some understanding to this. And if this, of course

1689
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:37,439
Speaker 2: is after Tuesday, you can go and find that Q

1690
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:39,840
Speaker 2: and A and hopefully it would be helpful to you.

1691
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 2: Make sure you subscribe to the podcast or make sure

1692
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:44,800
Speaker 2: you subscribed to YouTube. We got a lot of shows

1693
01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:48,400
Speaker 2: coming up like this. Joel, your book The Unseen Battle

1694
01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:51,040
Speaker 2: is fantastic. How else can people follow you and your work?

1695
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah? I do the majority of my stuff on Instagram,

1696
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 1: So it's just my last name at MUDDA m A

1697
01:27:56,880 --> 01:28:00,839
Speaker 1: Lle and my friends from a podcast called Lurry Creatures.

1698
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:03,439
Speaker 1: I know it's wild. We started a new project on

1699
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:07,240
Speaker 1: subsett called Stranger Theology. And so if you're interested in

1700
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:10,080
Speaker 1: this and you want to have like an Orthodox evangelical

1701
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:13,400
Speaker 1: kind of foothold for the odd, weird things that are

1702
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:16,880
Speaker 1: happening in our in our world. Strangertheology dot com would

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01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:18,240
Speaker 1: be a great place to kind of learn more.

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01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:19,599
Speaker 3: About Stranger Theology dot com.

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01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,679
Speaker 2: And by the way, Heiser did work on Stranger Things,

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01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:24,800
Speaker 2: so you could bring some of your questions about that.

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01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:27,200
Speaker 2: I have opinions about stranger Things. Maybe we'll get into

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01:28:27,240 --> 01:28:30,120
Speaker 2: that a little bit Tuesday. But really appreciate you coming

1709
01:28:30,160 --> 01:28:33,120
Speaker 2: all the way out. You rock it on Instagram. It's interesting,

1710
01:28:33,240 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 2: it's educational, it's fun. You're doing great work that I

1711
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 2: hope people will pick up the Unseen Battle. Thanks for

1712
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:42,120
Speaker 2: the conversation. Thanks ro Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show,

1713
01:28:42,439 --> 01:28:45,599
Speaker 2: please hit that fall button on your podcast app. Most

1714
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:47,840
Speaker 2: of you tuning in haven't done this yet and it

1715
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:50,719
Speaker 2: makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip

1716
01:28:50,800 --> 01:28:53,880
Speaker 2: more people and build community. And please consider leaving a

1717
01:28:54,080 --> 01:28:58,080
Speaker 2: podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to The

1718
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:01,000
Speaker 2: Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of

1719
01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:04,439
Speaker 2: Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and

1720
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:08,759
Speaker 2: online programs and apologetic Spiritual Formation, marriage and Family, Bible

1721
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:10,960
Speaker 2: and so much more, we would love to train you

1722
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 2: to more effectively, live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today,

1723
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:17,679
Speaker 2: and we will see you when the next episode drops