Speaker 1: On today's episode of Timeless Wisdom.
Speaker 2: If you speak to secular people, they'll always challenge religious people, Hey,
Speaker 2: how can you be religious? Look at all this evil?
Speaker 2: How can you believe in God? There are kids with cancer,
Speaker 2: and they're right. Those are legitimate questions which religious people
Speaker 2: should struggle with you. But what if you turn it
Speaker 2: around and say, Okay, I have to struggle with kids
Speaker 2: with cancer, But do you have to struggle with kids
Speaker 2: with no cancer?
Speaker 3: You have to struggle with the fact that there are
Speaker 3: a kids period.
Speaker 1: That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Denis Prager. Welcome
Speaker 1: to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of hours
Speaker 1: of Dennis's lectures, courses in classic radio programs, and to
Speaker 1: purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to Denisprager dot com.
Speaker 2: We are up to Genesis thirty two, isn't it huh?
Speaker 3: Whizzing right along? That's correct?
Speaker 2: Well, listen, there are fifty chapters in Genesis, and what's
Speaker 2: been our rate about a chapter and a half a time?
Speaker 2: About so there are after today, hopefully there are thirty.
Speaker 2: There were sixteen chapters left at a chapter and a half,
Speaker 2: that is twelve sessions now, so we will finish Genesis,
Speaker 2: god willing this year and within the coming semesters.
Speaker 3: That's dramatic. Now I will be I tell you this.
Speaker 2: Anybody who will have gone through the entire Tora with me,
Speaker 2: I will present a personal I tell you what, I
Speaker 2: will take you to lunch. Okay, I will take anybody
Speaker 2: who lasts through the end of Deuteronomy. Of course, I
Speaker 2: may end up bringing your great grandchildren to lunch. You
Speaker 2: may end up coming in a walker. Hey, I may
Speaker 2: end up coming with a walker, you know. But yes, Jerusalem, Cairo,
Speaker 2: where Shahem Bethel, right wherever it will be. But that's
Speaker 2: a promise, okay.
Speaker 3: Chapter thirty two, All right, yeah, pretty good? Hello, all right,
Speaker 3: everybody's getting up early again. Here we go. Chapter thirty two.
Speaker 2: Early in the morning, Laban kissed his sons and daughters
Speaker 2: and bad them goodbye. Then lave On or Laban left
Speaker 2: on his journey homeward. And we're done with lave On
Speaker 2: here in this tremendous amount of problems that Jacob has had,
Speaker 2: and God spares him.
Speaker 3: And all the sheep.
Speaker 2: And you recall all of that from last time. By
Speaker 2: the way, who are the sons of Laban whom he kissed.
Speaker 2: We thought he only had daughters, right Ley and Rachel,
Speaker 2: so it means sons in law. His son in law
Speaker 2: is Jacob, so it's not sons in law's.
Speaker 3: It refers to grandchildren as well. That's who it refers to.
Speaker 2: Just want to keep you on your toes when you
Speaker 2: look at the stuffs. Verse two thirty two. Jacob went
Speaker 2: on his way, and angels of God encountered him. When
Speaker 2: he saw them, Jacob said, this is God's camp camp
Speaker 2: and hebrews mahnette, and he named it mahanaim, which is
Speaker 2: like plural of mahanette.
Speaker 3: Very interesting.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk a little today about angels of
Speaker 2: God and what that means and who they are, because
Speaker 2: it's a real issue. Who are malachim In Hebrew, the
Speaker 2: word is mauach Any of you Jews who have sung
Speaker 2: a very famous song Shalom Alehem on Shabbai night shah
Speaker 2: loo male then it's mala hey hashaha eight shallo malehm
Speaker 2: peace unto you Malachy hashareh, the the angels of service
Speaker 2: Malachy eleone, the angels of above. It's a very famous
Speaker 2: melody that almost all of you who are Jewish, I
Speaker 2: suspective heard at least once where you welcome in the
Speaker 2: Sabbath angels.
Speaker 3: The trouble is that angel.
Speaker 2: Is an English word with very specific connotations. In Hebrew,
Speaker 2: the word malach means something else, and it means more
Speaker 2: so messenger.
Speaker 3: It will become very relevant later when we come.
Speaker 2: To one of the most famous portions in the Torah
Speaker 2: of Jacob's wrestling.
Speaker 3: And whom does he wrestle with? Will work on that,
Speaker 3: But I just want you to be aware of the
Speaker 3: term here, that this can be translated as messengers of
Speaker 3: God just as much as it can angels, at least
Speaker 3: even more so.
Speaker 2: Verse four, Jacob sent messengers ahead to his brother Esau
Speaker 2: in the land of say Ere, in the country the
Speaker 2: country of edme where is this, those of you who
Speaker 2: are looking, when you'll get the map, please look for
Speaker 2: say here. It'll be down south today it would be Jordan,
Speaker 2: southern or southwestern Jordan.
Speaker 3: That's where he's living.
Speaker 2: And this is also an ancient enemy of Israel, Adome.
Speaker 2: So this meant a great deal to ancient Jews later
Speaker 2: than the Bible. But to ancient Jews what it meant Adome.
Speaker 2: There's also a play on words here say, here is
Speaker 2: the name of the place. In Hebrews sayar means hair.
Speaker 2: So we're back to good old Esau again. Remember, you
Speaker 2: can almost have forgotten him with all the travails of
Speaker 2: twenty years with Laban that Jacob had.
Speaker 3: And here we have the.
Speaker 2: Eddon also means read, so we have all the characteristics
Speaker 2: of Esau mentioned in where he lived. That's the help
Speaker 2: of knowing the Hebrew. There play a lot of plays
Speaker 2: on words. So we're back with Esau. Esau has had
Speaker 2: twenty years to nurse his grudge against his brother, and
Speaker 2: his brother Jacob is well aware of the fact that
Speaker 2: Esau does not have a picture of him hanging in
Speaker 2: his home, probably and instructed them this.
Speaker 3: Is a go.
Speaker 2: By the way, here's a good example of what I said,
Speaker 2: the Hebrew for messengers. You all have this as messengers
Speaker 2: right now. Here's the problem of Hebrew and translation. As
Speaker 2: little you can do about it, but I'm here to
Speaker 2: tell you about it.
Speaker 3: Notice that the verse two it says that Jacob went
Speaker 3: on his way in angels of God encountered him. Right,
Speaker 3: the word for angels.
Speaker 2: Is the exact same word as the word for messengers
Speaker 2: in verse four, So you can either have U and
Speaker 2: Jacob went on his way and messengers of God encountered him,
Speaker 2: or you can have Jacob sent angels ahead to his brother. Now,
Speaker 2: obviously Jacob doesn't have angels working for him, at least
Speaker 2: not in this sense. But you must understand therefore that
Speaker 2: messenger of God is the better term than angel.
Speaker 3: Okay, by the way.
Speaker 2: There's another good example of that. I may have mentioned
Speaker 2: this to you, and that is profit. Prophet is a
Speaker 2: bad term for the Hebrew Novi, you know the prophets
Speaker 2: profit to any of you imply someone who tells the future.
Speaker 2: That's not what a prophet's task was. A prophet's task
Speaker 2: was to be a spokesman for God. Nave means spokesman.
Speaker 3: And if we had better translations, it would be better.
Speaker 3: We would be more, we would have a more accurate
Speaker 3: understanding of what's going on. If we spoke of.
Speaker 2: Jeremiah and Ezekiel and Hoseiah as as spokesman, you'd have
Speaker 2: a much better idea of what they are than prophets.
Speaker 2: And likewise, messengers, God has messengers. Angels too is too
Speaker 2: disneylandish in a certain sense. So please note that the
Speaker 2: same word in Hebrew from messenger and angel.
Speaker 3: And here is just two sentences away.
Speaker 2: It's Jacob sending messengers to Asov to Esau, his.
Speaker 3: Brother in the land of Seherant.
Speaker 2: He instructed them as follows, this is what you will
Speaker 2: say to my lord Esau. Thus says you're a servant, Jacob.
Speaker 2: Is this not cracking you up? You cannot get more
Speaker 2: obsequious language if you tried, don't, for these are the
Speaker 2: words you better use when you meet my brother, to
Speaker 2: my lord Esau and your servant, Jacob. Now, I meant
Speaker 2: to tell you something more.
Speaker 3: I'm going to come back. Well, let me tell you
Speaker 3: about lord and servant, And.
Speaker 2: Used clearly to ingratiate himself with Esau. He is very
Speaker 2: worried about what Asov is going to do to him,
Speaker 2: and the Ramban Nachmanides, medieval Jewish commentator, says he treats
Speaker 2: Esau as if Eso.
Speaker 3: Were the oldest brother.
Speaker 2: And apparently from what the records that we have in
Speaker 2: the old world, in the ancient world, that is how
Speaker 2: younger siblings did defer to older siblings.
Speaker 3: They would This was the language of the time. So
Speaker 3: what is he doing now?
Speaker 2: He is stating publicly for Esau's benefit. Hey, I acknowledge
Speaker 2: that you're the eldest. Now that he got the bruhof
Speaker 2: from Isaac, big deal, What does it cost him to.
Speaker 3: Reacknowledge his firstborn status? You get it.
Speaker 2: But that is why these words are important to reason
Speaker 2: again one two in order to ingratiate himself with Esau.
Speaker 2: Two to re establish that I acknowledge that you're the firstborn.
Speaker 2: Because this is the language that the younger sibling uses
Speaker 2: for the older sibling. Okay, that's why this is very important.
Speaker 2: I just I want to tell you something I have,
Speaker 2: thanks to technology, a CD ram A compact this with
Speaker 2: the entire Tanah, the entire Hebrew Bible on it. So
Speaker 2: all I do is type in a word in Hebrew,
Speaker 2: and it shows me every place in the Tanas that
Speaker 2: it appears. I mean, it's just absolutely incredible instantaneously. So
Speaker 2: I looked up malach and malachim angel or messenger in
Speaker 2: singular and plural. Found the following, which I think is interesting.
Speaker 2: First of all, this is the first time when Jacob
Speaker 2: sends Malachim.
Speaker 3: It's the first time in the.
Speaker 2: Torah that malachim are sent by man. Until now, all
Speaker 2: malachem were sent by God. Number two, no time better.
Speaker 2: Every time in the Torah that malach is used in
Speaker 2: the singular God sent it. Man only sends messengers. God
Speaker 2: sends sometimes a messenger. I don't know if it's significant.
Speaker 2: I can't believe it's purely coincidental that there was never
Speaker 2: a singular messenger sent by Man.
Speaker 3: It's always messengers. Maybe that's when it becomes an angel
Speaker 3: when it's in the singular. Who knows.
Speaker 2: Anyway, This is what you are to tell Esaul when
Speaker 2: you meet him, thus says your servant Jacob. I stayed
Speaker 2: with Laban and remained until now. Why is he saying that?
Speaker 2: What is the importance of that message? Can anybody figure
Speaker 2: out what is he trying to say to Asov here? Well,
Speaker 2: obviously he's coming home, but that that's right. This was
Speaker 2: his way of saying, Hey, if I could have i'd
Speaker 2: have met you much sooner.
Speaker 3: But I was stuck with Laban all these twenty.
Speaker 2: Years, like he was dying to see Asov the entire time.
Speaker 2: Just couldn't give him a call, right, I mean, it's
Speaker 2: really that you have to please understand the humor involved here,
Speaker 2: not that he means, of course to be funny, but
Speaker 2: it is humorous. He's using a Bologney line with this
Speaker 2: whole thing. Hey, you know, if I only could have
Speaker 2: ace up, Jesus, I'd have been in touch. But I
Speaker 2: was stuck with Laban the whole time.
Speaker 3: So notice how rich this one sentence is with the
Speaker 3: entire plan of Jacob. One.
Speaker 2: I will treat you like the eldest all over again. Two,
Speaker 2: I will be your humble servant. You are my lord.
Speaker 3: Three Please no, I've been dying to be in touch
Speaker 3: with you, but I've been detained for twenty years. Okay,
Speaker 3: now that you see the richness of the sentence. So
Speaker 3: now he says, and now, and there's a tactic in
Speaker 3: the next verse. And I a quiet cattle and asses
Speaker 3: and sheep and male and female slaves or servants, if
Speaker 3: you will, and I send this message to my lord
Speaker 3: in the hope of gaining your favor.
Speaker 2: Now, why does he tell him how rich he is? Well,
Speaker 2: this is also part of his tactic. Hey, listen, I
Speaker 2: recognize who you are. You're my lord, you're my elder brother.
Speaker 3: I've been detained, and I'm very rich, always very rich.
Speaker 3: Then that means he thinks Esau will think, oh, I
Speaker 3: can get something from him, it is clear, and you
Speaker 3: will see how clear it becomes that Yakov thinks that
Speaker 3: Asov has one overwhelming desire in life, material welfare, and
Speaker 3: generally speaking, he was probably right. That doesn't make Esau bad.
Speaker 2: We have no basis on which to claim that Esau
Speaker 2: is an evil man. Nothing in the biblical text suggests
Speaker 2: that is that clear. He's a simple man. He's a
Speaker 2: hunting man, which the Bible is not enthralled with. He's
Speaker 2: a wild man. He doesn't care about birthrights. He cares
Speaker 2: about eating well and hunting well and material welfare. But
Speaker 2: he is not a bad man. He's just not the
Speaker 2: person you want is your patriarch. Okay, that's very important
Speaker 2: to understand what's going on.
Speaker 4: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.
Speaker 4: Now back to more of Dennis Fragger's timeless Wisdom.
Speaker 3: So he tells him how Richie is.
Speaker 2: Sarna points out, though, that he doesn't mention a certain
Speaker 2: animal that he does have. He mentions cattle, asks his sheep,
Speaker 2: and then servants what animal does he have that he
Speaker 2: doesn't mention, and this is two very intentional camels. He
Speaker 2: doesn't mention that he owns camels.
Speaker 3: Sarna says. The reason is.
Speaker 2: Because that's the most valuable livestock. He just doesn't want
Speaker 2: to give it up. It's very simple as that. I mean,
Speaker 2: all of this is so human, right. If you knew
Speaker 2: you were going to give up stuff, maybe your very
Speaker 2: most valuable thing, you might not mention. Oh I'm really loaded.
Speaker 2: I have a Cadillac and I have a Pontiac.
Speaker 3: But you don't mention your roles, Okay, I mean, if.
Speaker 2: You're that wealthy, just to put it in common parlance,
Speaker 2: comparing a camel and a rolls.
Speaker 3: Verse verse seven.
Speaker 2: The messengers returned to Jacob, saying, we came to your
Speaker 2: brother Esau. This is already somewhat bad language for Jacob's ears.
Speaker 3: He's still your brother, see you.
Speaker 2: Please remember we're back to the original problem that you
Speaker 2: had with your brother. So the language, it's don't give
Speaker 2: me first born and stuff. This is your brother, Esaw,
Speaker 2: and he's more or less just like you left him
Speaker 2: twenty years ago. We came to your brother Aesa. He
Speaker 2: himself is coming to meet you. Now, how is that possible?
Speaker 2: Clearly he has had his own spies out to find
Speaker 2: out what's happened with my brother. He never felt that
Speaker 2: things had been reconciled. So he found out, and he's
Speaker 2: coming to meet you, to which, of course, we're sure
Speaker 2: that Jacob was delighted, especially with the following data.
Speaker 3: And he's not alone. Four hundred men are with him.
Speaker 3: Isn't now wonderful? You could only imagine Jacob's reaction. Jeez,
Speaker 3: that's great news. Four hundred men in the Bible is
Speaker 3: a regiment. This is not a well.
Speaker 2: We counted and we noticed one more than three hundred
Speaker 2: and ninety nine.
Speaker 3: And he's coming with a regiment. This is not good
Speaker 3: for Jacob.
Speaker 2: Jacob, Jacob has a ceaselessly truble He's it started in
Speaker 2: the womb, right.
Speaker 3: There are some people like that, isn't it true?
Speaker 2: There are some people who just seen that that problems
Speaker 2: find them. They have an innate tropism for problems. Jacob
Speaker 2: is one of them. It started in the womb. He
Speaker 2: started fighting with his twin brother and it has never stopped.
Speaker 2: He finally gets out of Laban's clutches. What is the
Speaker 2: first news, Esaus showing up with a regiment. You gotta
Speaker 2: start feeling for the guy. I mean, he hasn't done
Speaker 2: terrible things either. When you think about it, that he
Speaker 2: has deserved all these problems, all right, So he himself
Speaker 2: is coming to meet you.
Speaker 3: There four hundred men with him, to.
Speaker 2: Which the reaction in verse eight is rather understandable. Jacob
Speaker 2: was greatly frightened, and in his anxiety, one.
Speaker 3: Second, let's just see, yes, yes, yes, yes. If I
Speaker 3: had any notes, they used them, okay.
Speaker 2: And in his anxiety he divided the people with him,
Speaker 2: and the flocks and herds and camels into two camps, thinking,
Speaker 2: if Asuv comes to the one camp and attacks it.
Speaker 3: The other camp may yet escape. I mean, that is
Speaker 3: how bad he envisioned the meeting.
Speaker 2: It also shows how plagued he was with guilt this
Speaker 2: whole time, because I think it's both guilt and a
Speaker 2: sense of my brother is very angry, and twenty years
Speaker 2: has not assuaged that anger.
Speaker 3: That's obviously the way he is feeling here, that.
Speaker 2: He would divide up his camp and say, look, one
Speaker 2: of you may get obliterated, but at least i'll have
Speaker 2: the other half that can run away while he's obliterating
Speaker 2: the first half.
Speaker 3: It's a sad time, obviously. Then Jacob said verse ten,
Speaker 3: this is a prayer.
Speaker 2: Notice that it's a somewhat different prayer than the one
Speaker 2: he gave originally when he made that deal as it
Speaker 2: were with God. Remember that this time he says, Oh,
Speaker 2: God of my father Abraham and God of my father Isaac,
Speaker 2: Oh Lord who said to me, return to your.
Speaker 3: Native land, and I will deal bountifully with you.
Speaker 2: I'm laughing because once again, while it is not as
Speaker 2: obvious a deal as the first time he has a
Speaker 2: prayer to God, it is a very unsubtle reminder to God. Hey, alisten,
Speaker 2: there is a deal working here. You made a promise.
Speaker 2: You notice that, Oh Lord, who promised the following, And
Speaker 2: then he gets very specific, said that I will deal
Speaker 2: very you will return to your native land, and I
Speaker 2: will deal bountifully with you. Hey, listen, I'm on my
Speaker 2: way to my native land, and I like you to
Speaker 2: deal boundifully with me.
Speaker 3: You made the promise, so says.
Speaker 2: I am unworthy of all the kindness that you have
Speaker 2: so steadfastly shown your servant. With my staff alone, I
Speaker 2: crossed as Jordan, and now I have become two camps.
Speaker 3: You get the point. I just came. All I had
Speaker 3: was a miserable staff, right like Rod.
Speaker 2: And now I'm gonna have too camps worth of people
Speaker 2: and possessions.
Speaker 3: Deliver me.
Speaker 2: I pray from the hand of my brother, from the
Speaker 2: hand of Aceov. Else I fear he may come and
Speaker 2: strike me down, mothers and children alike.
Speaker 3: I mean he's quaking. He thinks his brother's an animal.
Speaker 2: Yet you have said, I will deal bountifully with you,
Speaker 2: and make your offspring as the sands of the.
Speaker 3: Sea, which are too new porus to count. Twice he
Speaker 3: reminds God of what God brothers. So this is uh.
Speaker 3: It's a man of faith. But who still feels that
Speaker 3: God might need a little prompting. What can we say?
Speaker 3: It's all too human?
Speaker 2: I would, I would, I would argue, which is of
Speaker 2: course the appeal of the whole book.
Speaker 3: Verse fourteen.
Speaker 2: After spending the night there, he selected from what was
Speaker 2: at hand these presents for his brother Aesov. One hundred
Speaker 2: she goats and twenty he goats, two hundred us.
Speaker 3: And twenty rams. Oh well, he ended up giving some
Speaker 3: type of camel, maybe a sauna.
Speaker 2: Either he couldn't avoid it or whatever. But he does
Speaker 2: end up giving camels thirty milch. It says here you
Speaker 2: have another term. What's a milch camel? Anybody know? It's
Speaker 2: an old brand. It's like certain camels come in brands.
Speaker 3: I guess it's Steve. Oh really, so why.
Speaker 2: Isn't it just milk camel all right? Thirty milch or
Speaker 2: milk camels with their colts, forty cows and ten bulls,
Speaker 2: twenty she asses and ten he asses. Notice it says
Speaker 2: he gives from what was at hand. This was a
Speaker 2: rich man. These were just what was around him. The
Speaker 2: total thanks to sauna.
Speaker 3: He gave him five one hundred and fifty easts. That's
Speaker 3: a nice present.
Speaker 2: But of course, if it works, it's a bargain, right
Speaker 2: If you were thought you'd be killed, five hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty animals is a good deal. These he put in
Speaker 2: the charge of his servants, drove by drove. Why did
Speaker 2: he put him in drove by drove so that it
Speaker 2: would be a very slow process, whereby Esau could see
Speaker 2: all the riches that.
Speaker 3: He was getting.
Speaker 2: Even this is a tactic, and he told his servants
Speaker 2: this is part of the tactic. Go on ahead and
Speaker 2: keep a distance between droves. I mean, after all, what
Speaker 2: is the most dramatic way to get a present? Slowly
Speaker 2: but steadily, right, not all at once? Here it all is,
Speaker 2: It's not as exciting. But if you show all here
Speaker 2: are the ewes, and here are the rams, and here
Speaker 2: are the camels, and each one just, oh, my god,
Speaker 2: another thing from my darling brother Jacob.
Speaker 3: You can get overwhelmed.
Speaker 2: He instructed the one in front as follows. When my
Speaker 2: brother Aesov meets you and asks you, who's man are you?
Speaker 3: Where are you going? And whose animals are these ahead
Speaker 3: of you?
Speaker 2: You'll answer your servant Jacob's They are a gift sent
Speaker 2: to my lord Esau, and Jacob himself is right behind us.
Speaker 3: Let me read to you on seventeen Oh I did
Speaker 3: already on this? Okay, on that good again.
Speaker 2: Jacob's assumption is just as at the incident with the porridge,
Speaker 2: that Esau will be mollified by immediate gratification and material gratification.
Speaker 2: That is the way he reads his brother, and he's right.
Speaker 2: My brother wants immediate stuff in life. He will give
Speaker 2: up his anger for animals. He will give up his
Speaker 2: birthright for porridge. That is the way in which Jacob
Speaker 2: reads his brother. And we have no reason to think
Speaker 2: he's wrong, because indeed it works in both cases. Nineteen Wait,
Speaker 2: I just want to tell you one nineteen You shall
Speaker 2: answer again. You see the word he uses, your servant Jacob,
Speaker 2: You see that constantly use of this language. Of you
Speaker 2: are ahead, you are above me. I defer to you,
Speaker 2: you are great. He gave similar instructions to the second one,
Speaker 2: and the third, and all the others who followed the droves, namely, thus,
Speaker 2: and so shall you say to acelf when you reach him,
Speaker 2: and you shall add what is the word? And you're
Speaker 2: a servant, you see servant again. Servant Jacob himself is
Speaker 2: right behind us. For he reasoned, if I propitiate him
Speaker 2: with presents in advance and then face him, perhaps he
Speaker 2: will show me favor. Okay, which was obvious. But the
Speaker 2: reasoning is spelled out in the Torah verse twenty two.
Speaker 2: And so so the gift went on ahead while he
Speaker 2: remained in camp.
Speaker 3: That night.
Speaker 2: That same night he arose and taking his two wives,
Speaker 2: his two maid servants, and his eleven children. So you
Speaker 2: will know who all these people are by now, right right,
Speaker 2: he crossed the ford of the Yabuk. Now Yabuk is
Speaker 2: a river which those of you, as you're passing around
Speaker 2: that atlas, you should all be able to see that river,
Speaker 2: which apparently has.
Speaker 3: I read a description of.
Speaker 2: It at another work. It is like a mini Grand canyon.
Speaker 2: It's got very steep mountains on each side, almost coming
Speaker 2: up perpendicular from the water, and is very difficult to cross.
Speaker 3: You have to understand what is involved here.
Speaker 2: In the ancient world, crossing a river was a monumental
Speaker 2: task and is also filled with meaning. That's when they
Speaker 2: speak about crossing the rubicon, right, if you've crossed the rubicon,
Speaker 2: it's a metaphor for you've really your life has changed,
Speaker 2: You've really gone to something very different in life. Crossing
Speaker 2: a river is critical as it will be the most
Speaker 2: among the most critical moments for Jacob here in a moment.
Speaker 2: But that is the importance of this river Yabok. Also,
Speaker 2: the name itself is related to the word conflict mavac
Speaker 2: in Hebrew, which is exactly what he will have with
Speaker 2: this messenger of God coming up.
Speaker 4: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.
Speaker 4: Now back to more of Dennis Frager's timeless Wisdom.
Speaker 2: So that same night he arose and taking his two
Speaker 2: wives to mad service eleven children, he crossed the ford
Speaker 2: of the Yabok. Now, who in the world would cross
Speaker 2: a difficult river at night?
Speaker 3: Did he do it?
Speaker 2: The answer is probably because it was critical to him
Speaker 2: to get as fast as possible to Esau.
Speaker 3: After he got the gifts while Esau was still in
Speaker 3: a good mood. That is how important it was.
Speaker 2: And it shows the contempt I hate to say it,
Speaker 2: in some ways that Jacob had not for at least
Speaker 2: that aspect of his brother. That he's basically a very wild,
Speaker 2: feeling oriented human being. Who can't you got a hit
Speaker 2: when the feeling is right, which is what he has
Speaker 2: worked with Esau the whole time.
Speaker 3: Once again, if he.
Speaker 2: Has these gifts and there is a fairly a long
Speaker 2: lag time between the gifts and seeing me, he's gonna
Speaker 2: hate my guts again and he'll forget the gifts. He
Speaker 2: is moving very quickly here. He cannot wait to cross
Speaker 2: the river and get to Aesop. He's coming south and
Speaker 2: Aesob is coming north. If you saw that the Atlas map.
Speaker 2: After taking them across the stream, he sent across all
Speaker 2: his possessions, Jacob was left alone. We don't know why
Speaker 2: Jacob was left alone.
Speaker 3: Okay, it doesn't follow fully from what we just said.
Speaker 3: If he went with his family, why was he alone
Speaker 3: and he send them all across the stream and his possessions,
Speaker 3: and he was left alone.
Speaker 2: But it says that he crossed the ford after taking
Speaker 2: them across the stream, he sent across all his possessions. Well,
Speaker 2: unless he sent everybody and he stayed behind, I guess
Speaker 2: that's the implication. I don't know why he would do it, though,
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. I don't see why it would happen.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter though. What matters is that he was alone.
Speaker 2: Just wanted to say that it's not a necessary logical
Speaker 2: follow up. If he's crossed with everybody, why doesn't he
Speaker 2: continue with everybody?
Speaker 3: Be that as it may. He stayed alone. Maybe it
Speaker 3: was to contemplate.
Speaker 2: Maybe it was to prepare himself psychologically, who knows.
Speaker 3: Whatever the reason, he did stay alone. And now comes
Speaker 3: one of the most fascinating episodes in the Bible, not
Speaker 3: just in Genesis. And a man wrestled with him until
Speaker 3: the break of dawn. Notice what it says. It says
Speaker 3: a man wrestled with.
Speaker 2: Him, okay, until the break of dawn when he saw
Speaker 2: that he had not prevailed against him.
Speaker 3: That's who. When who saw the man?
Speaker 2: When the man saw that he had not prevailed I'm
Speaker 2: going to keep telling you who that he is, because
Speaker 2: it never says it and get very confusing. When he
Speaker 2: the man, this unnamed unknown man, saw that he had
Speaker 2: not prevailed again him Jacob, he wrenched Jacob's hip at
Speaker 2: the socket so that the socket of his hip was
Speaker 2: strained as he wrestled with him. He was forever somewhat
Speaker 2: crippled as a result of this fight.
Speaker 3: He will have a.
Speaker 2: Permanent physical handicap reminder a limp, if you will, as
Speaker 2: a result of this struggle at the river.
Speaker 3: Then he said, who said good? The fact that you
Speaker 3: all shouted out the man at Jacob is why it's
Speaker 3: important that I tell you who it is, because the
Speaker 3: text is not it. Should you know if I'd have
Speaker 3: written this, itomated clearer, Yes, it is the man. Then
Speaker 3: he said, that is the man. Let me go, for
Speaker 3: dawn is breaking, But he Jacob answered, I will not
Speaker 3: let you go unless you bless me.
Speaker 2: I'll read the story and then we'll have a lot
Speaker 2: of commentary on it. Are you with me thus far?
Speaker 2: I won't let you go, Jacob says to the man,
Speaker 2: unless you bless me, said the other, that is the man.
Speaker 3: What is your name? Jacob? Replied. He replied Jacob, Jacob
Speaker 3: said he the man.
Speaker 2: Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for
Speaker 2: you have striven with beings divine and human and have prevailed.
Speaker 2: Jacob asked, pray, tell me your name, but he said,
Speaker 2: you must not ask my name, and he took leave
Speaker 2: of him there. Okay, we'll continue afterwards, But there is
Speaker 2: I would like to read to you some commentaries, and
Speaker 2: then I will give you my own. First, I will
Speaker 2: read to you from Sarna about the story. Listen carefully.
Speaker 2: It's a very very interesting commentary. The literary artistry shows
Speaker 2: every sign of the influence of two dominant motifs common
Speaker 2: to a broad range of cultures. The river is the
Speaker 2: scene of the struggle, recalls the many tales of river
Speaker 2: spirits that fight with humans who seek to cross their abodes.
Speaker 2: A very common feature in ancient civilization is river demons
Speaker 2: who are there to be fought and conquered in order
Speaker 2: for you to successfully cross the river. Okay, So this
Speaker 2: idea of fighting some invisible spirit or demon at a
Speaker 2: river would have resonated to ancient readers totally, insofar as
Speaker 2: rivers frequently prove to be unexpectedly treacherous. They were believed
Speaker 2: to possess some malevolent power.
Speaker 3: Dangerous to human life.
Speaker 2: Travelers with take good care to propitiate the river spirit
Speaker 2: through sacrifice, libation, or other ritual before attempting to ford.
Speaker 3: Is that totally clear? They would have.
Speaker 2: Religious ceremonies which they would engage in rituals in order
Speaker 2: to propitiate the the river spirits to be successful in crossing.
Speaker 2: Equally widespread is the motif of a demonic, that is,
Speaker 2: devilish being whose power is restricted to the duration of
Speaker 2: the night, and who is unable to abide the breaking.
Speaker 3: Of the dawn.
Speaker 2: Because remember in the story how important it is, it's
Speaker 2: the sun is up, Let me go. Seems to be
Speaker 2: a non sequitor. What does one have to do with
Speaker 2: the other. But that too, was an idea common in
Speaker 2: those in those times of spirits of the night only.
Speaker 3: And they would be defeated by the dawn. Okay.
Speaker 2: An obvious corollary is the opportunity accorded a brave soul
Speaker 2: to derive profit from the situation by holding on to
Speaker 2: the demon long enough to bend it to his will.
Speaker 3: Now here is the key.
Speaker 2: Though these motifs are obviously incompatible with Israelite monotheism. Remember
Speaker 2: the theme that I kept telling you about an early Genesis,
Speaker 2: that this is an affirmation of monotheism of the One
Speaker 2: God and hostility, profound hostility to.
Speaker 3: Paganism and to polytheism.
Speaker 2: Again, you have a story that pagans would relate to,
Speaker 2: and given one way that Torah changes it, just as
Speaker 2: it changed in the beginning. God created the world. Remember,
Speaker 2: nobody created God. No sex was involved in creating the world,
Speaker 2: even though that was exactly the way all pagan stories
Speaker 2: did it. What you do is you have in Genesis
Speaker 2: an inversion of pol You have your stories. We are
Speaker 2: going to monotheize them. So with Noah, remember.
Speaker 3: I told you about Utnah pished him about the pagan stories.
Speaker 3: Everybody had stories of a.
Speaker 2: Flood, but they were all saved because they were handsome,
Speaker 2: because the gods loved them for no reason except that
Speaker 2: they were drawn to them. But Noah's chosen because he's moral,
Speaker 2: totally different. Once again, you have it here. The motifs
Speaker 2: are obviously incompatible with Israelite monotheism. They have consequently been
Speaker 2: transformed in our biblical narrative. Nothing in the text connects
Speaker 2: the mysterious assailant.
Speaker 3: With a river spirit. Get it. There are no river spirits,
Speaker 3: there are no demons. God controls the world. It is
Speaker 3: the basic, basic, basic Jewish view.
Speaker 2: There are no competing forces on earth. That is why
Speaker 2: witchcraft is not acceptable in Judaism or magic, because they
Speaker 2: imply other powers than God to manipulate life. You have
Speaker 2: free choice, and therefore you are in God's image. You're
Speaker 2: the only other free choice creature in the universe. That's
Speaker 2: why the human is so distinct. But there are no
Speaker 2: other powers. There is divine power, and there is human power. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: there is human power. But there are no other powers
Speaker 2: in the world, not river demons.
Speaker 3: In this particular instance.
Speaker 2: So the reader of ancient Israel would have been shocked
Speaker 2: by this story. You're not, But that reader would have
Speaker 2: been where's the river demon. It's just a It's just
Speaker 2: a man or a messenger of God. We'll talk about
Speaker 2: that later. The stranger does not interfere with the passage
Speaker 2: of personnel, livestock, and baggage.
Speaker 3: Right. They all went across effortlessly.
Speaker 2: Then came the person It is only after these have
Speaker 2: already crossed the river that he becomes active. It is
Speaker 2: Jacob alone who is the object of his aggression. Jacob
Speaker 2: clearly knows nothing of any river spirit, for the attack
Speaker 2: is wholly unexpected and no propitiatory ceremony takes place.
Speaker 3: Right, Jacob didn't.
Speaker 2: Make any special libation or ritual against river demons. The
Speaker 2: contrast with the folk tale genre is further accentuated through
Speaker 2: the absence of any description of the adversary.
Speaker 3: All it said was man. And then it didn't even
Speaker 3: say man again. Remember that's why the text is so
Speaker 3: a little difficult.
Speaker 2: It just kept saying and he said, and he said,
Speaker 2: and he said, and he said, and he said.
Speaker 3: We know nothing about this thing.
Speaker 2: Just once it said man ish.
Speaker 3: I just want to make sure it's the word used.
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, twenty five Okay, So nothing is told about it.
Speaker 2: The usual pattern requires the spirit to assume the form
Speaker 2: of animals, serpents, and monsters in a constant shift from
Speaker 2: one guise to another in the course of the struggle.
Speaker 2: You have none of that, even hinted at here correct again,
Speaker 2: in a complete reversal of roles. It is the mysterious
Speaker 2: being who injures Jacob. Traditionally, the spirit is the one
Speaker 2: who is punished and wounded by the human defender. It's
Speaker 2: entirely inverted. Do you see that from what pagan stories
Speaker 2: would be. It is one of the key motifs of
Speaker 2: Genesis is the destruction of the Torah. Forget if Genesis
Speaker 2: of all five books, and that will be if you
Speaker 2: last with me, one of the constant repeated, if not
Speaker 2: the most constantly repeated theme. Destroy polytheism, knock alternate ideas
Speaker 2: of other powers in the world. The fact that the
Speaker 2: assailant blesses Jacob proves that it cannot.
Speaker 3: Be a demon.
Speaker 2: If it were a demon, who's going to ask a
Speaker 2: blessing from a demon?
Speaker 3: That's another inversion of it all.
Speaker 4: This episode of timeless wisdom will continue right after this.
Speaker 4: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless.
Speaker 2: Wisdom, for the notion of eliciting and receiving a blessing
Speaker 2: from a demon is unexampled and inconceivable in a biblical context.
Speaker 2: In short, the occurrence of this incident by a river
Speaker 2: and the sudden attack by a mysterious assailant indicate that
Speaker 2: popular folk tales provided the literary model for this biblical narrative,
Speaker 2: but a careful and radical pursing of all elements offensive
Speaker 2: to the monotheism of Israel has taken place pagan bottles,
Speaker 2: monotheism wine. Okay, very very important. Continuing now, now we
Speaker 2: raise the question of the identity of the assailant. Who
Speaker 2: but Aesav Esau would have had such an obstructionist interest.
Speaker 2: But the wrestler is definitely not Esau himself. Hence he
Speaker 2: must stand for Esau in some manner. He is, as
Speaker 2: it were, Esau's alter ego. The vocabulary employed in the
Speaker 2: narrative to identify the strange personage a man and afterwards Elohim,
Speaker 2: a divine being, is that used elsewhere of angels.
Speaker 3: Indeed, the prophet Hosea.
Speaker 2: Explicitly describes him as such as an angel in Hosea
Speaker 2: twelve four.
Speaker 3: I checked it. It's true.
Speaker 2: The most plausible solution, therefore, is to see in this
Speaker 2: mysterious being the celestial patron of Esau. This, indeed is
Speaker 2: the interpretation given in amid Rush, which is a Rabbinic fable.
Speaker 2: As it were, throughout the ancient world, the idea was
Speaker 2: current that each city, state, each people had its divine protector.
Speaker 2: In monotheistic Israel, such a notion was intolerable. It therefore
Speaker 2: became transmuted into a belief in the existence of subordinate.
Speaker 3: Spirits who were part of the celestial host. Finally, in summation,
Speaker 3: the mysterious creature who assails Jacob as he is about
Speaker 3: to cross the future border of Israel. That's another reason
Speaker 3: for this important river is none other than the celestial
Speaker 3: patron of Esau, Edome, who was the inveterate enemy of
Speaker 3: the people Israel. Again, an ancient Israelite reading this would
Speaker 3: have seen a metaphorical battle of Israel and Edome. The
Speaker 3: entire episode foreshadows the impending confrontation with Esau, whom Jacob
Speaker 3: can now meet with confidence if he wrestled with this
Speaker 3: being now he could certainly wrestle with Esau.
Speaker 2: It is also emblematic of subsequent historical relations between the
Speaker 2: people of Israel and a Dome.
Speaker 3: Now, let me read to you.
Speaker 2: What Cloud says just one paragraph. Since ancient days, crossing
Speaker 2: a river has.
Speaker 3: Been all its old ones.
Speaker 2: Make sure you, Since ancient days, crossing a river has
Speaker 2: been symbolic of overcoming hazard and going forward to new experience,
Speaker 2: which is what.
Speaker 3: I was talking about.
Speaker 2: In this sense, Jacob passing over the a book to
Speaker 2: meet Esau crosses the watershed of his life. Everything that
Speaker 2: has happened to him since he obtained both birthright and
Speaker 2: parental blessing by doubtful means, has been tanked. Did with
Speaker 2: his own guilt and his brother's enmity. Jacob can fully
Speaker 2: face his own past only as he seeks reconciliation with Esau,
Speaker 2: and this he can do only as he becomes a
Speaker 2: different man. When Jacob becomes Israel, he can achieve reconciliation
Speaker 2: with his brother.
Speaker 3: Now, prager at Sarna and plot hold on one sec. Okay, Now,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you a little story. What does it mean?
Speaker 3: It means strive or struggle with God.
Speaker 2: Right, let's look again at why he got that name
Speaker 2: verse twenty nine, twenty nine.
Speaker 3: And he said, that is the the man.
Speaker 2: Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for
Speaker 2: you have striven with beings divine and human, and have prevailed. Okay, first,
Speaker 2: just the I can't the shot the literal explanation. He
Speaker 2: has struggled with human beings, right, Esau and Laban. He
Speaker 2: has really struggled, and he has prevailed. But he has
Speaker 2: now also struggled with God, or at least with divine
Speaker 2: beings and therefore you get the name struggle with God.
Speaker 3: My little story is a very simple one.
Speaker 2: It's about a phone call I got from a Muslim
Speaker 2: woman many years ago on one of my talk shows. Said, Dennis,
Speaker 2: you say we can ask you anything. He said, of course,
Speaker 2: said I'd like to ask you.
Speaker 3: I'm a Muslim woman. I like to know why you're
Speaker 3: not a Muslim. And I thank her for asking me
Speaker 3: because I took it as a as a compliment that
Speaker 3: she even cared that she would like me to be one.
Speaker 3: Was I felt complimentary at any rate, I.
Speaker 2: Said to her, it's obviously worthy of huge responses and dialogues.
Speaker 3: And I cannot deny that having been born Jewish is
Speaker 3: a big part of the reason.
Speaker 2: But having said that, I can give you a philosophical reason.
Speaker 2: The names of each of our religions in their native
Speaker 2: language gives you the answer. Islam means something in Arabic,
Speaker 2: and Israel means something in Hebrew. Islam means surrender to God.
Speaker 2: Israel means struggle with God. I rather struggle with God
Speaker 2: than surrender to God. And she said, thank you. That's
Speaker 2: a good answer because she was true to her Islam.
Speaker 2: Because you are to to God, not In Judaism, you
Speaker 2: are to obey God, but not surrender.
Speaker 3: There's a big difference struggle and obey.
Speaker 2: A lot of Jews take the struggle very seriously and
Speaker 2: end up disobeying, and a lot of Jews don't even struggle.
Speaker 3: As Eli Weisel put it once, I think very.
Speaker 2: Well said, a Jew can love God, a Jew can
Speaker 2: fight with God, but a Jew cannot ignore God. And
Speaker 2: a lot of Jews ignore God, which is to me
Speaker 2: the greatest contemporary Jewish problem. But putting that aside for
Speaker 2: a moment, struggling with God and struggling with Man is
Speaker 2: what life is about. And this is why, aside from
Speaker 2: the obvious Jewish reason I just gave you why.
Speaker 3: I think this is so important when I lectured a
Speaker 3: great deal on he happiness and writing a book on it,
Speaker 3: which will come out sometime at my great grandchild's broh mitzvah.
Speaker 3: But the uh, I make the point in it that
Speaker 3: tension is a good thing. Those of you took the
Speaker 3: course with me will undoubtedly recall this because I made
Speaker 3: such a big deal about it.
Speaker 2: Animals have no tension or a desire no tension. Certainly,
Speaker 2: you look at a cow grazing and you have seen
Speaker 2: the epitome of non tension.
Speaker 3: Right then they look up at you with that.
Speaker 2: Untense look, and you know that you have seen the
Speaker 2: face of relaxation. And as I put it when I
Speaker 2: teach the course, a lot of people actually want to
Speaker 2: emulate cows. There is a desire to live as tension
Speaker 2: free as possible. Hence, for example, people will do things
Speaker 2: that are the antithesis of breeding any tension, as for example,
Speaker 2: watch television a great deal, watching sports a great deal.
Speaker 2: I have no problem with some TV, with some sports
Speaker 2: with some no.
Speaker 3: Tension, not at all. There's a place for that in life.
Speaker 2: That I'm not extreme on this, I am only saying
Speaker 2: that a life that seeks no tension is.
Speaker 3: Not a human life.
Speaker 2: You have not fully developed your humanity if you seek
Speaker 2: no tension. This goes true, by the way, for both
Speaker 2: secular and religious people. Secular people who never challenge their
Speaker 2: secularism and religious people who never challenge their religiosity are
Speaker 2: to me in the same human boat, lazy, ungrowing as
Speaker 2: human beings now. And the interesting thing is neither one
Speaker 2: sees it very.
Speaker 3: Often as a problem in their own life.
Speaker 2: If you speak to secular people, they'll always challenge religion people, Hey,
Speaker 2: how can you be religious? Look at all this evil?
Speaker 2: How can you believe in God? There are kids with cancer,
Speaker 2: and they're right, those are legitimate questions which religious people
Speaker 2: should struggle with.
Speaker 3: But what if you turn it around and say, Okay,
Speaker 3: I have to struggle with kids with cancer, but do
Speaker 3: you have to struggle with kids with no cancer? You
Speaker 3: have to struggle with the fact that there are kids period.
Speaker 3: Do you struggle with that? You and your secularism?
Speaker 2: You, in your non religiosity, do you ever struggle with it?
Speaker 2: You are the absence of God and religion in your life. Yes,
Speaker 2: I fully acknowledge I as a religious person have many
Speaker 2: things to account for and struggle with. But do you
Speaker 2: not realize in your secular life the absence of God
Speaker 2: and religion that you have also struggles you have to
Speaker 2: deal with. And this is revelatory, absolutely revelatory. They have
Speaker 2: never thought of it in that way. Likewise, there are
Speaker 2: many religious people who say, you see, look the secular
Speaker 2: They close their minds to the obvious fact that there
Speaker 2: is a God and there was a creator in the world.
Speaker 2: But you can ask many religious people, h really, well,
Speaker 2: did you ever challenge your religiosity. You were born in
Speaker 2: the exact same religion you're in. You haven't grown one
Speaker 2: in since you're a child. Religiously, you are doing exactly
Speaker 2: what your parents did religiously, why are you intellectually and humanly?
Speaker 3: One went more advanced.
Speaker 2: Than the secularist who never challenged his or her secularism,
Speaker 2: and they never thought of it that way. How many
Speaker 2: religious people challenge their religiosity. They come to some peace
Speaker 2: with some beliefs at a certain point, and then they
Speaker 2: just sail on till death, just as secularists sail on till.
Speaker 3: Death with their non challenge. And neither is the dream,
Speaker 3: that not.
Speaker 2: The Jewish dream, at any rate, at any rate, of
Speaker 2: what the human should be.
Speaker 3: And that is why, by the way, it is so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Jacob has to struggle with man and struggle with God,
Speaker 2: and so do you. If you don't struggle with man
Speaker 2: or with God, then you don't grow. That doesn't mean
Speaker 2: go around fighting and bullying. It means struggling. It's a
Speaker 2: struggle to make a better world. It is if everybody
Speaker 2: in the world likes you, you've done something wrong.
Speaker 3: It's the truth.
Speaker 2: By the way, if everybody in the world hates you.
Speaker 2: You've also done something wrong. Both are true. Now, the
Speaker 2: point is not to make enemies. The point is to struggle.
Speaker 2: Do you struggle with human beings and you struggle with God?
Speaker 2: And that is what it is to be human. That's
Speaker 2: why the story has such resonance. After all, it has
Speaker 2: to what is the big deal? There has to be
Speaker 2: a big deal because this is the name of the
Speaker 2: people of the Bible, So it's got to have it's
Speaker 2: got from the biblical perspective, it has to have a
Speaker 2: staggering amount of importance. And frankly, what could be more
Speaker 2: important than the nature of humanity. It's not just the
Speaker 2: nature of the jew it's the Jewish understanding of what
Speaker 2: it is to be a human. This struggle, this is
Speaker 2: how you grow through tension, not aggravation. Incidentally, one of
Speaker 2: the things that I make a distinction in my book
Speaker 2: is between tension and aggravation. Aggravation is gratuitous, tension unnecessary
Speaker 2: because nudnix are in your life. Okay, that's a very
Speaker 2: different thing.
Speaker 3: Or you get too easily aggravated over things that you shouldn't.
Speaker 3: That's bad, that just kills you. But tension is good.
Speaker 2: My best example of how good tension is is we
Speaker 2: use it, for example, in one sphere of life as
Speaker 2: totally positive sexual tension.
Speaker 3: It's a good thing.
Speaker 2: If you don't have any sexual tension with your partner, it's.
Speaker 3: Not a good thing. It's precisely what you do want
Speaker 3: to have. But it's not the only area where tension
Speaker 3: is a good thing. You want tension in a lot
Speaker 3: of You want intellectual tendon if you're not challenging yourself.
Speaker 2: It happened on the radio last night. Guy called up.
Speaker 2: He wanted the recommendations because he's conservative. He's a dentist.
Speaker 2: Give me good magazines to read so I can bolster
Speaker 2: my conservatism.
Speaker 3: And I gave him half and half.
Speaker 2: I gave him half conservative, half liberal, and one centrist.
Speaker 2: Because if all he reads is conservative journals that he
Speaker 2: agrees with, how's he going to grow? Even as a conservative,
Speaker 2: he won't grow, let alone, as a human, He'll just deteriorate.
Speaker 2: I'll become a parrot of the conservative articles that he's read,
Speaker 2: as liberals do with liberal articles that they read and
Speaker 2: don't read the opposition. Now, it makes life tougher, but
Speaker 2: it makes it infinitely richer to have this tension to
Speaker 2: struggle with people, to struggle with God.
Speaker 3: And that's what it is about.
Speaker 2: That is why if you have questions about God in Judaism,
Speaker 2: that is totally par for the course.
Speaker 3: That is why you will now.
Speaker 2: Understand the concept in Judaism that how you behave is
Speaker 2: more important than how you believe. Now the behavior includes
Speaker 2: ritual religious behavior, though it is more important in Judaism
Speaker 2: that you observe the Shabbah, the Sabbath than that you
Speaker 2: affirm God's existence. That is true for Reform, for Conservative,
Speaker 2: for Orthodox, for Hasidic. There is no exception in Jewish
Speaker 2: historical thinking.
Speaker 3: And that's not often you can say that.
Speaker 2: Because you may have doubts on a Wednesday, but Friday night,
Speaker 2: when the sun sets, it's time for you to make
Speaker 2: the Sabbath, even if you have doubts or you're angry
Speaker 2: at God that week. Now you understand where this all
Speaker 2: comes from. That is why you are free as a
Speaker 2: Jew to have a great deal of tension, to have
Speaker 2: a great deal of.
Speaker 3: Even anger at God. How can you let a Holocaust happen?
Speaker 2: So when Jews yell they can't believe in God after
Speaker 2: the holocaus, they're doing that, they're reacting to me in
Speaker 2: an Unjewish way and in the logical way. The logical
Speaker 2: and Jewish ways not to say there's no God because
Speaker 2: there's a Holocaust. The logical and Jewish ways say I'm
Speaker 2: angry at God because there was a Holocaust. The Holocaust
Speaker 2: doesn't disprove God's existence anymore than then an unfortunately, a
Speaker 2: tragic gang bang shooting in La tonight will. For that
Speaker 2: person murdered, it's no different if they're one of six
Speaker 2: million or one of one. That's the end of their whole,
Speaker 2: all their hopes and their and everything else of their life.
Speaker 3: The issue is feeling about God. Anger with God. That's permitted.
Speaker 2: Indeed, there is a certain desirability if your reaction to
Speaker 2: God is identical, no matter what happens to you, You're
Speaker 2: not human. If you never struggle with God, it doesn't
Speaker 2: make sense. You struggle with your wife, with your husband,
Speaker 2: with your kids, with your parents, but not with God.
Speaker 2: Is God less intimate to you? How could you be
Speaker 2: intimate with anybody and not struggle. It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2: Then there's nothing going on. That's the beauty of this story.
Speaker 2: That's what I have always gotten out of it. This
Speaker 2: is when he goes from Jacob, which is the grabber,
Speaker 2: that's what Remember what it meant. It was just grabbed
Speaker 2: on the heel of his brother. And now he becomes
Speaker 2: a struggler. The highest term that the Torah can give
Speaker 2: a human being is struggler. That's what I want to
Speaker 2: be said when you're dead, when I'm dead, he struggled.
Speaker 2: He worked hard in this life. He grappled with it
Speaker 2: and sometimes prevailed. Sometimes we don't, but that's not The
Speaker 2: purpose in life is to prevail, because none of you,
Speaker 2: none of us, no one will ever fully prevail. That's
Speaker 2: why there's a great rabbinic statement it is not up
Speaker 2: to you to finish the task, but you're also not
Speaker 2: free to desist from trying.
Speaker 3: None of you will make the world perfect. None of
Speaker 3: us will.
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean you can sit back and not
Speaker 2: try to make it better. But no one dies with
Speaker 2: all of his dreams, and that'll come out very dreams fulfilled.
Speaker 2: The only one, remember who said it died satisfied was Abraham.
Speaker 2: I told you is the one time in the Torah
Speaker 2: that had happened, And it's quite amazing that it happened
Speaker 2: in the one time. So fellow strugglers that that.
Speaker 3: Is the ideal.
Speaker 2: The highest appellation of the Torah is one who struggles
Speaker 2: with God one, not one who ignores God, and not
Speaker 2: one who sits back with comfort, comforting and comfortable belief.
Speaker 2: As a Protestant one said, it's the task of religion.
Speaker 2: The task of religion is not to comfort the afflicted
Speaker 2: nearly as much as it is to afflict the comfortable.
Speaker 2: It's very important because a lot of people look to
Speaker 2: religion as a source of comfort, look to God as
Speaker 2: a source of comfort.
Speaker 3: That's okay, there is nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2: If that's all you are looking for in God and religion,
Speaker 2: then they become merely little valiance and they are not real.
Speaker 2: The task is to challenge you, and you challenge with standards.
Speaker 3: One of the things that troubles me today.
Speaker 2: Is the argument that compassion must always win out against standards.
Speaker 2: I'll give you a very difficult issue where it's an example,
Speaker 2: and with this I will move on. And whether you
Speaker 2: agree with me or not is not the point. Nor
Speaker 2: am I here to convince you that I'm right. I'm
Speaker 2: here to convince you that this is a good example
Speaker 2: of the tension between comfort and religious standards. Homosexuality comfort
Speaker 2: says live and let live whatever people do, so long
Speaker 2: as it's non coercive, there is no judgment to be made,
Speaker 2: and that is a far more comforting thing.
Speaker 3: You live with far more tension if you argue that
Speaker 3: there is a better way to lead a life, that
Speaker 3: heterosexual monogamous marriage is the best. It makes people tense.
Speaker 2: It makes adulterers tense, It makes single people who are
Speaker 2: single out of volition tense. It is it's not fully
Speaker 2: compassionate because the purpose of religion is not only to
Speaker 2: be compassionate. It is to provide a guideline, a thing
Speaker 2: to aspire to. If you can't, you can't. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to sit here and dump on people who can't.
Speaker 2: If you can't be heterosexual, I have no argument with you.
Speaker 2: I only have an argument with you if you ask
Speaker 2: me to say that Judaism my religion says it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter if you're hetero or all.
Speaker 3: That's where my argument comes in. It is not personal.
Speaker 2: It is over whether or not standards which cause tension
Speaker 2: should be removed just because they cause tension.
Speaker 3: But that's the purpose of religion.
Speaker 2: It is to cause tension, not anger, not hostility, not evil,
Speaker 2: but tension. It means you're alive and struggling with it
Speaker 2: is a big part of the issue.
Speaker 3: That's what happened at Yabok.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, it's longer than Plout's and Sarna's commentary,
Speaker 2: but it's mine.
Speaker 3: I'll come to a moment. Let me just finish chapter
Speaker 3: thirty two.
Speaker 2: Jacob ass tell me your name, and he said, you
Speaker 2: must not ask my name, and he took leave of
Speaker 2: him there.
Speaker 3: Now, why what happens here? When else?
Speaker 2: Even though I very rarely make references to other places
Speaker 2: in the Torah, because I want to read the tore
Speaker 2: as if we're coming the first time, but there is
Speaker 2: another place worthy of mentioning here where again there is
Speaker 2: this question to the divine being, what's your name?
Speaker 3: Anybody know?
Speaker 2: Moses at the burning Bush asks what's your name? And
Speaker 2: it's exactly what Jacob is asking this presumably divine being
Speaker 2: here at Yabok, at the river Yebogue, what's your name?
Speaker 3: Did he wrestle with God? Did he wrestle with man?
Speaker 3: Did he wrestle with an angel?
Speaker 2: It's silent on this, but it was so obviously divine
Speaker 2: even to Jacob, because he asked for a blessing.
Speaker 3: That's how we know that. That was the case with Jacob.
Speaker 3: And no name once please, and no name is given.
Speaker 2: He says, you can't know my name because the divinity God.
Speaker 3: Is not knowable.
Speaker 2: There's a great medieval Hebrews saying Lujah dativ haithiv. If
Speaker 2: I knew him, I'd be him.
Speaker 3: If I knew God, I'd be God. You can't Man
Speaker 3: can't know God. You can wrestle with God. You can
Speaker 3: know God's will in certain areas, but you cannot know
Speaker 3: God cannot tell you.
Speaker 2: Take it in one second, just finished chapter thirty two,
Speaker 2: and he took leave of them there.
Speaker 3: So Jacob named the place penny Lanim penni l literally
Speaker 3: means face of God.
Speaker 2: That's what he named it, face of God, meaning I
Speaker 2: have seen the Divine Being face to face, yet my
Speaker 2: life has been preserved.
Speaker 3: It is a basic Torah principle. You can't see God
Speaker 3: and live.
Speaker 2: God himself says that later on in the Torah, the
Speaker 2: sun rose upon him as he passed Penuel, limping.
Speaker 3: On his hip. He now has a limp as indeed,
Speaker 3: Moses had had a speech impediment. That is why the
Speaker 3: children of Israel to this day did.
Speaker 2: Not eat the thigh muscle that is on the socket
Speaker 2: of the hip, since jacob hip sock Jacob's hip socket
Speaker 2: was wrenched.
Speaker 3: At the thigh muscle.
Speaker 2: Did you know that the psiatic nerve has to be
Speaker 2: removed from meat for it to be kosher. They do
Speaker 2: that in Israel, so you can have I guess it
Speaker 2: would mean kosher sirloin.
Speaker 3: But here you can't because they don't bother doing it.
Speaker 3: It's just that's part of that part of the animal.
Speaker 2: They just give to the non kosher butcher a butchery,
Speaker 2: I guess, and it is not used because it's two painstaking.
Speaker 2: But in Israel it actually is done, and you can
Speaker 2: eat that part of the.
Speaker 3: Animal and have it kosher. But this too is a
Speaker 3: very important.
Speaker 2: Jewish symbol of making the physical, making the metaphysical physical
Speaker 2: is a very big part of Judaism. A Jew is
Speaker 2: not told, remember that you were slave in Egypt.
Speaker 3: Every year.
Speaker 2: A Jew is told the following, eat matza, so that
Speaker 2: you will remember exactly what they ate. Eat bitter herbs,
Speaker 2: so you'll have a little pain, physical pain, to give
Speaker 2: you an idea of what it was like to be
Speaker 2: a slave. Eat hero sat Because this certain mixture of
Speaker 2: nuts and so on and fruits to give you an
Speaker 2: idea of what mortar looked like, and.
Speaker 3: On and on.
Speaker 2: Every year, I want you to live in an impermanent
Speaker 2: booth on the holiday of Booths Sukkote, so that you
Speaker 2: know what it is to live with impermanence.
Speaker 3: Judaism doesn't trust you.
Speaker 2: It doesn't believe that you can empathize non physically. If
Speaker 2: you want to know what it is like to live impermanently,
Speaker 2: live impermanently. If you want to know what it is
Speaker 2: like not to be able to have the time to.
Speaker 3: Bake bread, don't bake bread. Judaism is filled with that.
Speaker 2: And in this regard it is very, very different from Christianity.
Speaker 2: Christianity is a religion of the heart, much more than Judaism,
Speaker 2: which is a religion of the law. That doesn't mean
Speaker 2: there's no law on Christianity, and it doesn't mean it's
Speaker 2: no heart in Judaism, but it does mean that one
Speaker 2: tends to stress one more than the other stresses it.
Speaker 2: After all, they stressed everything equally, they'd be the same religion.
Speaker 2: This is not an inferior, superior statement. It's a statement
Speaker 2: of difference. Judaism holds. If you want to feel it,
Speaker 2: you must do it. You cannot just feel it. Same
Speaker 2: with the Sabbath. These are the things you do in
Speaker 2: order to emulate God's ceasing of creativity on the Sabbath.
Speaker 3: These are the things you do. These are the things
Speaker 3: you don't do. Whereas to most Christians today the Sabbath
Speaker 3: is felt internally to an observing Jew, the idea that.
Speaker 2: You could go to a ballgame, drive to a ballgame
Speaker 2: on the Sabbath, it'll keep it in your heart is
Speaker 2: totally foreign, as foreign as it is to a Christian
Speaker 2: the idea that you shouldn't go to a ballgame on
Speaker 2: the Sabbath because you are violating God's will.
Speaker 3: Yet those are two very separate ways.
Speaker 2: When I asked Christian clergy for ten years on religion
Speaker 2: on the line on my radio station, I would ask them,
Speaker 2: you know, if I came to your home on a
Speaker 2: Sunday after church, how would I know it's a Sunday
Speaker 2: and not a Monday.
Speaker 3: And I said, you wouldn't because it's.
Speaker 2: Internal my feeling of the Lord's Day, which is literally
Speaker 2: what Sunday is for a Christian more than specifically the Sabbath.
Speaker 2: But if you came to an observant Jews home on
Speaker 2: the Sabbath, you would know in ten seconds it was
Speaker 2: the Sabbath. Everything about it would be different, everything about
Speaker 2: the behavior. So too, you don't remember when Jacob became Israel.
Speaker 3: You eat it. You see every time, you can't have
Speaker 3: that part of an animal. You remember the battle that
Speaker 3: made Jacob into Israel. That's a very big difference, and
Speaker 3: that is what is.
Speaker 2: Going on in this particular verse. Okay, there were a
Speaker 2: couple of questions here.
Speaker 5: Yes, I was really struck by the part that you
Speaker 5: passed over.
Speaker 3: He pointed out the anomaly.
Speaker 5: Of Jacob's standing there alone on the bank, and then
Speaker 5: you passed over it. It seems to me that the
Speaker 5: implication here is very strong that he was waiting, and
Speaker 5: the text.
Speaker 3: Goes very quickly into the struggle.
Speaker 5: He's standing there alone, and all of a sudden he's
Speaker 5: struggling with the messengers.
Speaker 3: So he stood there intentionally. You're saying as if.
Speaker 2: He knew he had to, right, it's very possible, or
Speaker 2: simply that or not as an or as if it's
Speaker 2: a different explanation. But in addition that he knew that
Speaker 2: this was a major moment, than he needed to be
Speaker 2: alone for whatever reason, even if he didn't know exactly
Speaker 2: what was going to happened, which is why he sent
Speaker 2: everybody ahead.
Speaker 6: Yes, atthastics for the messager whoever's.
Speaker 3: Name and the name is not given, he said it,
Speaker 3: and he took leave and he blessed him then, okay,
Speaker 3: versus that Yes, okay, No, it's thirty Okay, I look
Speaker 3: at the Hebrew. Yes, it's a very good point. See.
Speaker 2: I debated whether I should do every sentence in Hebrew,
Speaker 2: but it took too long. I used to do it.
Speaker 2: But you are absolutely right. She is she says it.
Speaker 2: Her reading says, and he blessed him not he took
Speaker 2: leaves with yes, and that is exactly what it says
Speaker 2: in the Hebrew.
Speaker 3: That's correct. It's a very interest. Well, I don't know
Speaker 3: why this this translation amidst that fact.
Speaker 2: It's a very it's a very relevant point in thirty.
Speaker 2: In verse thirty, the messenger, remember, he says bless me.
Speaker 3: Okay. My translation says at.
Speaker 2: The end of verse thirty, and he took leave of
Speaker 2: him there, But the Hebrew is.
Speaker 3: And he blessed him there.
Speaker 2: Yes, let me just think, yes, I mean, it's what
Speaker 2: it says I would have to know why it why
Speaker 2: they gave this translation. Yes, thank you for making that point.
Speaker 3: Yes, please, is there any explanation on verse twenty three?
Speaker 3: Why why?
Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't born yet the twelfth. Ah, you're right, Well,
Speaker 2: let's hold on Dina. That's right, because Dina is the twelfth.
Speaker 3: Hold on two women. Yes, however, they're wrong. Whoever said
Speaker 3: sons because it's not Banave, it's Kila Dave was his children.
Speaker 3: Well that shows how much girls counted for. I mean,
Speaker 3: that's another example I gave it last time. Uh, that
Speaker 3: is that is extraordinary point. I'm gonna have to really
Speaker 3: call up some of my friends. That's a sad little
Speaker 3: little point.
Speaker 2: Let's see, hold on, and so who is only Joseph
Speaker 2: was not yet born? Oh, then hold on if Joseph
Speaker 2: and Benjamin are not born.
Speaker 3: That's why I said only Joseph was not born. Oh,
Speaker 3: Joseph was born.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, ben Jackson Benjamin is not born. Therefore that
Speaker 2: would make it thirteen.
Speaker 3: Therefore this would be and it says eleven man's right.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I do, but he doesn't say anything about
Speaker 3: it loves Oh, excuse me, he does. That's right. I
Speaker 3: don't know how I missed it.
Speaker 2: Only the principal actors and the evolution of the nation
Speaker 2: are specified. Because Jacob is about to become Israel, the
Speaker 2: personification of the tribal confederation. That is why Dina and
Speaker 2: the rest of his household are not mentioned. Okay, but
Speaker 2: in other words, they didn't count. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just how many children do you have? And then
Speaker 2: you gave the number of sons.
Speaker 3: Very funny though, if a man had six daughters, how
Speaker 3: many children you have none? That's a little disconcerting. Yes,
Speaker 3: I was thinking a lot about the students of tension
Speaker 3: and struggling with the mind and just being you're the
Speaker 3: only one, and so many.
Speaker 6: People just don't want to think.
Speaker 3: They just be apt and they get back and forth
Speaker 3: like a pendulum, and it seems possible. I mean you,
Speaker 3: I think maybe you're a product. And to relate that
Speaker 3: to yeshiva.
Speaker 2: Which is a way of encouraging this kind of you.
Speaker 6: Know, mental exercise.
Speaker 3: Yeah, question, you don't. Yeah.
Speaker 2: She's saying that, by and large, people don't wanna struggle
Speaker 2: and people don't wanna think, And.
Speaker 3: It is true, it's almost right. It's almost a cliche.
Speaker 3: Us and I don't wanna sound uh, condescending, which which
Speaker 3: is how I guess it could come off.
Speaker 2: But but but you're right, I'm most people. I I mean,
Speaker 2: I said that in passing, Although how do you account
Speaker 2: for six hours is average home television watching? Whatever you
Speaker 2: can say in d induction of thought and struggle is
Speaker 2: not one of television's primary criteria. And the people watching
Speaker 2: six hours are not watching you know, Meet the Press reruns,
Speaker 2: all right, obviously they're they're they're watching you know, sitcoms
Speaker 2: and movies and so on. Now, and as I said,
Speaker 2: it has a place entertainment. But yes, look, I'll give
Speaker 2: you another example. I'll never forget. I've been to seventy countries,
Speaker 2: and most of them alone. But I've had a lot
Speaker 2: of traveling and a lot of looking at people.
Speaker 3: Is what I would do, especially if you're alone. What
Speaker 3: else are you gonna do? And I remember major, major,
Speaker 3: large parts of the world.
Speaker 2: One of the things I noticed was the amount of
Speaker 2: time people spend killing time just sitting just staring out,
Speaker 2: playing cards, sitting with water pipes and schmoozing, which.
Speaker 3: Is nice, all of it. Again, I'm not I'm.
Speaker 2: Not on this, but these are these are things that
Speaker 2: I do. I mean, you know, I sit and stare.
Speaker 2: I sit and I play cards every so often. Of so,
Speaker 2: I have my stereo magazines, I have my nonsense, and
Speaker 2: it's a.
Speaker 3: Place for it.
Speaker 2: But the amount of time that is done, and that's
Speaker 2: why we have why do we have a phrase killing time?
Speaker 2: If people didn't do it so much? However, I can
Speaker 2: tell you this because she made a very important point.
Speaker 3: You made it. You might not have heard. If you
Speaker 3: don't struggle with life and don't constantly think things through,
Speaker 3: you will be far less in control of life. You
Speaker 3: will just react at that moment, having not prepared yourself
Speaker 3: in terms of thought. I have said this. That's one
Speaker 3: of the big themes that I that I have talked
Speaker 3: about on my show is the need for people to
Speaker 3: develop what the Germans call a velt unshown, which in
Speaker 3: English is a worldview.
Speaker 2: You need to develop a worldview prior to tragedy, because
Speaker 2: if you don't have a philosophy of life prior to tragedy,
Speaker 2: you won't know how to deal with it. People very often,
Speaker 2: for example, are bereft by not having worked through religious questions.
Speaker 2: When a tragedy hits their life, they are ill prepared
Speaker 2: they go, how.
Speaker 3: Come religion doesn't help me? Now? How come God is irrelevant? Now?
Speaker 2: If God and religion are irrelevant before a tragedy, then
Speaker 2: it's too late unless you really get shaken up and
Speaker 2: make very major efforts to take them seriously. But not
Speaker 2: for comfort, but for reasons of philosophical training. In philosophical thought,
Speaker 2: my argument is that you will have a much easier
Speaker 2: life if you constantly think and constantly struggle. Then if
Speaker 2: you don't, that's the irony. Because again, if I mean,
Speaker 2: he's a biblical source, the Psalmist who said those who
Speaker 2: sow in tears will reap in joy, and there is
Speaker 2: great truth to that. If you don't put in your
Speaker 2: dues earlier, you will put in your dues later. It's
Speaker 2: like rearing children. My view is, take a massive amount
Speaker 2: of time to rear your child as best as possible,
Speaker 2: so as if for no other reason, to avoid the
Speaker 2: awfulness of when it's too late and you can't do
Speaker 2: anything with your kids. The amount of time you can
Speaker 2: really influence your children is basically very limited. So it
Speaker 2: is such a time worthy of massive parental attention, and
Speaker 2: it's very difficult to give all that attention. You give
Speaker 2: up a lot of social life, you give up certain
Speaker 2: professional perks. But I think that you pay you get repaid.
Speaker 2: Not in every case. There are people who sew in
Speaker 2: tears and reap in tears. I acknowledge that, but it's
Speaker 2: worth the struggle because the benefits are there in life
Speaker 2: for it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. How do you balance that?
Speaker 2: I think with your kabo, who's a happy man who
Speaker 2: is content with his life? Yeah, he asked the question,
Speaker 2: how do I balance that with the Talmudic statement who
Speaker 2: is the happy man?
Speaker 3: He was content with his lot?
Speaker 2: They're talking actually about wealth. It doesn't really say who
Speaker 2: is the happy man? It says who is the wealthy man?
Speaker 3: And the answer is which is literally correct, The wealthy
Speaker 3: person is the one who is content with his lot.
Speaker 2: Because if you have millions of dollars and you are
Speaker 2: anxious about money, you are.
Speaker 3: De facto poor.
Speaker 2: You are in the same state as the impoverished person.
Speaker 2: Not the same state economically, but the same state emotionally.
Speaker 2: That's why I often say the very poor and the
Speaker 2: very rich have one thing in common. They're both obsessed
Speaker 2: with money.
Speaker 3: So from an emotional standpoint, they are more or less
Speaker 3: in the same boat. They're not in the same boat
Speaker 3: obviously materially, but they're in the same boat in terms
Speaker 3: of what their circumstances.
Speaker 2: Have created in them. That's why you have to make
Speaker 2: a very clear thing. I'm content if I can do
Speaker 2: the following. I had a very early criterion in my life.
Speaker 3: I was content if I could, if I could buy
Speaker 3: all the records and books I wanted. That struck me
Speaker 3: as a millionaire's life. And that was and I really
Speaker 3: had correct you.
Speaker 2: And and there were times, very few, thank god, where
Speaker 2: I couldn't even buy records, and it was very painful.
Speaker 3: But so I knew the pain quotion.
Speaker 2: But once I got to that point, the rest is
Speaker 2: like gravy, okay, But you'll all make your own point.
Speaker 3: Obviously for others it's different things.
Speaker 2: And as you get older, they it goes beyond records
Speaker 2: and books, your mortgage.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, they's just a whole host of things.
Speaker 3: But yes, that's what the Talmud is speaking about.
Speaker 6: Yep, eighty girls, that's right, child or theirs.
Speaker 2: Yes, she's making the point that to this moment, forget
Speaker 2: the Bible, to this moment, there are countries that don't
Speaker 2: want girls, that do not value them. That's absolutely correct.
Speaker 2: I've written about it, and I've talked about it, and
Speaker 2: it is. It is one of the greatest ongoing evils
Speaker 2: on this planet. And I'm very annoyed at women's organizations
Speaker 2: for focusing on issues that I think are ten dimensions
Speaker 2: less important than two massive evils against the female plitteridectomy,
Speaker 2: which has taking place about seventy five to one hundred
Speaker 2: million living girls and women, and the massive infanticide of
Speaker 2: girls in some third world countries, particular India and.
Speaker 3: China.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: You're confused about the status of women in the Torah
Speaker 3: because on the one hand you had the power of
Speaker 3: Rebecca and Sarah, and on the other hand, you see
Speaker 3: how like a dean isn't even counted or right and
Speaker 3: so on.
Speaker 2: They're not contradictory. The woman in real life is depicted
Speaker 2: as capable as a male. But it was a very
Speaker 2: patriarchal society where what mattered.
Speaker 3: In such a society was the sons.
Speaker 2: But that didn't mean that the female from the Torah perspective,
Speaker 2: from perhaps even ancient the patriarch's perspective at that time,
Speaker 2: that didn't mean that the view of the woman was
Speaker 2: that she was any less capable.
Speaker 3: Now it might sound like a living contradiction.
Speaker 2: If women are fully as capable as men, indeed in
Speaker 2: many cases more capable, then how could you not count them?
Speaker 3: But that's not a contradictory.
Speaker 2: It's contradictory from our perspective because we believe that all
Speaker 2: people are created equal and should be regarding every way
Speaker 2: politically and socially.
Speaker 3: But this is brand new, brand new.
Speaker 2: I mean, in this century women couldn't vote in this country,
Speaker 2: which was that there was more or less the height
Speaker 2: of enlightenment on this planet. I mean, so you know
Speaker 2: what we need perspective, It is not contradictory. What is
Speaker 2: remarkable to me is not that women girls weren'tcountered like boys.
Speaker 3: I mean that you have that's all of the world
Speaker 3: until it outgrew it. What is amazing is that women
Speaker 3: are depicted as capable as they are. See.
Speaker 2: I think you have to in a sense, you have
Speaker 2: to invert the normal way of thinking. People say, how
Speaker 2: could Thomas Jefferson keep slaves? As one historian I recently
Speaker 2: read put it and I think was much more revealing question.
Speaker 2: The question is now not how kad Thomas Jefferson keeps
Speaker 2: slaves everybody kept slaves.
Speaker 3: The question was, how could a.
Speaker 2: Man who kept slaves argue that all men are created equal?
Speaker 3: You get it. That's the point. It's not how could
Speaker 3: they think that girls were less equal?
Speaker 2: Is how does this book, written at that time depict
Speaker 2: women as so equal in their capacity as men were.
Speaker 3: That's what's remarkable, and that is why.
Speaker 2: Ultimately, the traditions influenced by Judaism and Christianity are the
Speaker 2: traditions that elevated women. There is the status of women
Speaker 2: in Judeo Christian Western society, with all its problems and
Speaker 2: all its flaws, and all its sexism and all the
Speaker 2: other bad things. The fact is, compared to Earth, not
Speaker 2: compared to an ideal in one's mind, was elevated the
Speaker 2: woman's status beyond all other groups. That's just the fact.
Speaker 2: And this book started it. It's a very very very
Speaker 2: long process. Give you an example. You all know how
Speaker 2: much rape takes place in war. My God, look at
Speaker 2: Bosnia right happening tragically and awfully as I talk to you.
Speaker 2: And yet in this book, in Deuteronomy, there is a
Speaker 2: law that when Jews are in a war and they
Speaker 2: capture a woman, a soldier captures a woman and he's
Speaker 2: attracted to her.
Speaker 3: This is what he does. He has to take her.
Speaker 2: Home, let her mourn her family for thirty days, and
Speaker 2: then he can take her as a wife.
Speaker 3: I mean that is incredible, incredible. Women are part of
Speaker 3: war's booty.
Speaker 2: You get gold, you get jewelry, you get girls. That's
Speaker 2: part of what war was about. And here's a book
Speaker 2: that says, wait a minute, brilliantly, it didn't say don't
Speaker 2: rape women. If it would have said don't rape women
Speaker 2: in war, it would have mattered very little.
Speaker 3: What it says is, oh, you want.
Speaker 2: The woman, no problem, Just let her mourn her parents
Speaker 2: for thirty days.
Speaker 3: Then you can have her. Now, who the hell is
Speaker 3: going to rape her? After thirty days, she's sitting in
Speaker 3: your house crying over her mother. And then oh, okay,
Speaker 3: thirty days are up, let's go to ben. I mean,
Speaker 3: that was the genius of it. It said, oh, Jewish soul,
Speaker 3: you want the girl, no problem, after thirty days of
Speaker 3: morning her parents.
Speaker 2: You see, this is what elevated the status. It took
Speaker 2: a long time that there's a law in the Torah
Speaker 2: about you can't just say, as in much of the
Speaker 2: ancient world, you want a man wanted a divorce.
Speaker 3: Bye, so long, get out of my tent. Now, get
Speaker 3: the out of here is a form of divorce and
Speaker 3: much of the ancient world.
Speaker 2: Instead, he had to write what's called a bill of divorcement,
Speaker 2: which immediately meant that he can't do He had to
Speaker 2: go to court, which meant that he couldn't do it impetuously.
Speaker 2: It meant that society had a role in whether or
Speaker 2: not you could have dissolve your marriage. These were massive
Speaker 2: things in this book that elevated the status of women.
Speaker 2: So okay, but it lived in a certain time.
Speaker 1: And Tomorrow's Sunday fireside chat.
Speaker 3: I'd like you to ask your child if your child
Speaker 3: is five or fifty, I want you to ask this question, ready,
Speaker 3: but you got to get the wording. You have to
Speaker 3: memorize the wording. What do you think I your father
Speaker 3: or I your mother most want you to be?
Speaker 4: Not?
Speaker 3: What do you most want to be? What do you
Speaker 3: think I your parent most want you to be? Happy? Successful, smart,
Speaker 3: or good?
Speaker 1: Join us tomorrow to hear more on Timeless Wisdom with
Speaker 1: Dennis Prager. This has been Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.
Speaker 1: Visit Dennisprager dot com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures,
Speaker 1: courses in classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's
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