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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 2: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 2: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 2: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 3: But it's also a place of hope and healing.

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Speaker 2: I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became

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Speaker 2: an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today I've found

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Speaker 2: sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety,

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Speaker 2: I found Jesus.

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Speaker 3: My prayer is.

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Speaker 2: That as I interview people just like you and just

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Speaker 2: like me, along with professionals in the fields of trauma,

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Speaker 2: faith and addiction recovery, you will find the piece that

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Speaker 2: is available to you through Christ on the other side

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Speaker 2: of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction that might be.

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Speaker 2: Because let's face it, we're all addicted to something so welcome,

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Speaker 2: let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks

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Speaker 2: like to be on this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll

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Speaker 2: be right back after this. So what do you do

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Speaker 2: when your faith tells you one thing and says one thing,

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Speaker 2: but your actions tell you and say another. And when

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Speaker 2: the coping mechanisms you've built to survive end up controlling you.

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Speaker 2: Those are two of the questions that we are going

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Speaker 2: to talk with today's guest about. And this is someone

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Speaker 2: I am so encouraged to introduce you to, and maybe

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Speaker 2: some of you already know her. Her name is doctor

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Speaker 2: Allison Cook. And when I say she was integl in

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Speaker 2: my addiction recovery and still is, I don't say that lightly.

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Speaker 2: Her two books, Boundaries for your Soul and I Shouldn't

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Speaker 2: Feel this way, are incredible. And if you order my book,

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Speaker 2: Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic and you sign up and

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Speaker 2: get the free bonuses that you get for buying the book,

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Speaker 2: I have a resource guide and I think it's about

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Speaker 2: twenty seven or so other books that I've read that

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Speaker 2: have been.

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Speaker 3: Helpful for me.

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Speaker 2: And both of those books are on the resource guide

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Speaker 2: because they definitely have been helpful. And I think if

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Speaker 2: you want to read them first and then read my book,

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Speaker 2: if you want to read my book and then read

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Speaker 2: like it's just it's really important. And I think what

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Speaker 2: I've learned from her is well, it can't really completely

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Speaker 2: just be summed up in one podcast, But some of

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Speaker 2: the most important things I've learned from her, I should say,

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Speaker 2: are what it looks like to have parts of ourselves

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Speaker 2: that are unhealed and unhealthy and also simultaneously have healthy

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Speaker 2: parts of ourselves that can do amazing things and get by.

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Speaker 2: And then what it's like to engage in cognitive dissonance

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Speaker 2: where you can know one thing and want to do

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Speaker 2: one thing and yet not do it or do something else.

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Speaker 2: And so in our conversation today, we're going to really

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Speaker 2: dig deep into the messy space where faith and psychology meet.

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Speaker 2: She's gonna explain why naming our struggles is so important

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Speaker 2: and also something that she calls a holy reframe, and

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Speaker 2: my goodness, a holy reframe is so important. And so

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Speaker 2: I'm really I'm honored that she decided to join me

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Speaker 2: for this podcast, and I really hope that it encourages

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Speaker 2: you to the extent that all of her writing has

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Speaker 2: encouraged me.

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Speaker 3: So if you.

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Speaker 2: Like, maybe you want to pause at certain points and

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Speaker 2: just digest it, if you need to take notes, like

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Speaker 2: do that, whatever it is, whatever you need to do

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Speaker 2: to really make sure that you are engaged or in

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Speaker 2: a space to hear this I think is important. But

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Speaker 2: before we get to that, let me just say we

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Speaker 2: are getting really close to the launch of Confessions of

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Speaker 2: a Christian Alcoholic. We are just about just over a

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Speaker 2: month away. And so if you listen to this and

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Speaker 2: haven't bought the book yet, if you're hearing this for

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Speaker 2: the first time, please go to Christian Alcoholic dot com.

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Speaker 2: Christian Alcoholic dot com. You can pre order the book there.

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Speaker 2: It's still available up until launch. Through the publisher. You

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Speaker 2: can get for forty percent off in free shipping, which

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Speaker 2: is better than you can do on Amazon. And you know,

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Speaker 2: like I've said before, it technically behooves me better to

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Speaker 2: point you to Amazon because you can climb the charts

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Speaker 2: and all the great stuff. But I want this. This

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Speaker 2: is not about making money. It's not about charts. It's

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Speaker 2: about getting a resource into your hands or someone you

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Speaker 2: love's hands. So go to Christian Alcoholic dot com and

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Speaker 2: you can grab the book. You can get the free

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Speaker 2: resources as well. So now, without further ado, doctor Alison Cook,

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Speaker 2: Doctor Cook, thank you so much for joining the Confessions

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Speaker 2: of a Christian Alcoholic podcast. I think I covered this

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Speaker 2: a little bit in the intro. But this is such

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Speaker 2: a treat for me because you were in goal in

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Speaker 2: my recovery process, and I talk about that in the book.

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Speaker 2: And so to now get to talk to you in

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Speaker 2: person and hopefully others get to see and hear what

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Speaker 2: I've experienced, I just really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. John. I'm super grateful for

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Speaker 1: what you're doing and what you're speaking to and I'm

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Speaker 1: glad to have been a part of it, and I'm

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Speaker 1: glad to have this conversation with you.

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Speaker 2: So for people, like I said, I gave a little

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Speaker 2: bit in the intro, but what is what is the

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Speaker 2: work that you're really focused on? I know you kind

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Speaker 2: of seesaw between Boston and Wyoming, which are just told

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Speaker 2: to as someone who lived in New York City for

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Speaker 2: seven years. There's just totally different worlds. So what is

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Speaker 2: the work that you're really focused on?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 1: My main goal is to just kind of become a

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Speaker 1: hub not only have my own work, but the other

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Speaker 1: folks who are doing great work out there, Christian mental

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Speaker 1: health resources. There's just such a need for that integration

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Speaker 1: right between what science is telling us and what our

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Speaker 1: Christian spirituality and faith tradition tells us, and so everything

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to do is trying to bring together those

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Speaker 1: two worlds. So I do mostly educational resources right now

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Speaker 1: through my podcast and my books. I do a very

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Speaker 1: little bit of consultation and private coaching, but primarily now

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to create these resources and places where people

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Speaker 1: confind these resources.

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Speaker 2: And of those resources, obviously you have the books. The

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Speaker 2: two especially that have been integral for me are boundaries

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Speaker 2: for your soul and I shouldn't feel this way. And

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Speaker 2: you also have this great podcast, the Best of You Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: which I have just really loved. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: I talk about radical vulnerability in my book, and you've

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Speaker 2: been vulnerable and open, I mean even to the point

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Speaker 2: I just love the other day. The other day, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was one of the episodes where you're talking about, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, you struggle with the idea of speaking, and

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Speaker 2: you struggle with the idea of like what does it

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Speaker 2: take in order to be even an author in this

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Speaker 2: world where you're talking to Caitlin Beatty where you have

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Speaker 2: to promote yourself, And I just love hearing how honest

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Speaker 2: you are about that.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, I don't know how else to do it right.

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Speaker 1: So I'm trying. I want to create these resources, but

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Speaker 1: there's also some of these realities as you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're getting ready to publish a book behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: of how this all kind of comes together. And I

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Speaker 1: think the more we can be transparent with what goes

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Speaker 1: on in this industry, you know, the people are you know,

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Speaker 1: the folks who are listening to you are dealing with

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Speaker 1: some of this behind the scenes stuff in a lot

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Speaker 1: of different environments. And the more we can just be

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Speaker 1: honest and name. That's my whole thing is naming things

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Speaker 1: without shame, naming things about myself that are hard, naming

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Speaker 1: things in the world that are hard, without shame. We're

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Speaker 1: just being honest. I think that's how we start to

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Speaker 1: find our way to each other and find our way

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Speaker 1: to deeper connections.

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Speaker 2: So well, that is a great segue into you kind

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Speaker 2: of one of the first questions I want to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Naming is a huge part of it.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I was finally got to the point

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Speaker 2: where I was naming you know what was going on

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Speaker 2: inside of me, that was really the gateway. And there's

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Speaker 2: a part of that where you talk in the book

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't feel this way, which I have right here,

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Speaker 2: and by the way, just to show people, here's here's.

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Speaker 3: The interesting part. I mean you can see I have

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Speaker 3: it all marked up.

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Speaker 2: But I actually listened to the book first and it

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Speaker 2: was so good. I listened to it and then I

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Speaker 2: bought a copy because I'm like, I have to, I

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Speaker 2: have to take notes, you know, So I would recommend

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Speaker 2: that for other people. But you talk about cognitive dissonance

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Speaker 2: in the book, and I know that that was a

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Speaker 2: huge That was like a breakthrough moment for me because

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Speaker 2: I think there was a for a long time. It's like,

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Speaker 2: how can I be the Christian who wrote a book

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Speaker 2: on mental health and then became an alcoholic?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And I think part of that is this idea of

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Speaker 2: cognitive dissonance. So can you explain the concepts the concept

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Speaker 2: of cognitive dissonance and then especially as it might relate

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Speaker 2: to people who are struggling with like Paul, doing things

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Speaker 2: they don't want to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean we all, on some level as

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Speaker 1: a human being, experience this phenomenon of cognitive dissonance. If

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Speaker 1: you think about that. Wor dissonance comes from the world

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Speaker 1: of music, where two notes just don't go together, you know,

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Speaker 1: they just jar. There's no harmony there, it's just dissonance.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't sound good. And so what it means inside

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Speaker 1: of us, this cognitive dissonance, you know, the boilerplay. Classic example,

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Speaker 1: you know is the person who is, you know, touting

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Speaker 1: climate change while flying around on their private jet. Now

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Speaker 1: that's an easy one for us to go, golly, what's

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Speaker 1: going How do you have that dissonance?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: You're saying one thing or you're believing one thing on

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Speaker 1: one hand, but your actions, your behaviors are directly opposed

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Speaker 1: to that belief. And that's a big, kind of funny example.

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Speaker 1: But this happens inside of us every day. You know,

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Speaker 1: I believe that these things are true, but my actions

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Speaker 1: are diametrically opposed to that. Sometimes we have conflicting beliefs.

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Speaker 1: I believe this and I believe this, and those two

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Speaker 1: things don't really go together. I think we saw a

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Speaker 1: lot of that. You know, currently in our police local climate,

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Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot of dissonance. Right, Dissonance in and

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Speaker 1: of itself is not the problem. The problem, and I

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Speaker 1: say this in the book, We're gonna have conflicting beliefs

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have conflicting beliefs and actions at times as

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Speaker 1: a parent. You know, that's it's the old trope, you know,

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Speaker 1: do what I say, not what I do. Right, That's

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Speaker 1: exactly what we're talking about in that trope. The thing

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Speaker 1: with dissonance that we have to be honest about is

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Speaker 1: when it's happening where we're not deceiving ourselves. Where we

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Speaker 1: really get into trouble with dissonance. And I go into

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Speaker 1: this in the books, when we start rationalizing, yes, the discrepancy,

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Speaker 1: when we start justifying the discrepancy, because we're really there

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Speaker 1: starting down the slippery path of self deception. We're deceiving ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We're either we're denying it, we're saying this isn't really happening,

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Speaker 1: or making up excuses for ooh. That's when we get

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Speaker 1: into a slippery slope of not good places in our soul.

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Speaker 1: When we're honest about it, where we're like, man, you know,

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Speaker 1: I will say to my kids this, I know I

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Speaker 1: shouldn't been doing this. I know I shouldn't or and

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Speaker 1: I am right, you know, and I am and I'm

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Speaker 1: not making up an excuse. You know. Again, that gets

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Speaker 1: back to that naming without shame. Now, ultimately we want

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Speaker 1: to work through dissonance so we arrive at a healthier balance,

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Speaker 1: a healthier balance between the two competing things. But the

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Speaker 1: first step is naming it honestly without shame.

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Speaker 2: And you talk you talk about also in the book

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Speaker 2: just kind of how there are cope the same thing

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Speaker 2: where you say, listen, cognitive dissonance is a normal part

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Speaker 2: of the human experience, right, it's when we try to

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Speaker 2: deny it or cover it. And you also talk about

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Speaker 2: how even coping mechanisms, right, are a normal part of

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Speaker 2: the human experience. Right, If we were just to sit

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Speaker 2: and think about just all the crud in the world

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Speaker 2: and in our lives all the time, like that wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be healthy. So you have this amazing, amazing list of

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Speaker 2: how to tell when things have become unhealthy copingisms. But

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Speaker 2: maybe if you just have you know, a couple of

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Speaker 2: ways that come to mind even from the book of

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Speaker 2: what how do we know when something has become an

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Speaker 2: unhealthy coping mechanism?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the things I say in the book,

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Speaker 1: there's a chapter on numbing, right, which is one of

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Speaker 1: the things we can all point to, right, And so

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Speaker 1: what I'll say to people, is there's a difference. We

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Speaker 1: do need to check out at times, and I am

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Speaker 1: the first to admit that right in my own life.

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Speaker 1: But there's a difference between at the end of the

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Speaker 1: day saying, man, I've had a rough day. I can't deal,

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Speaker 1: so I'm gonna just let myself watch reality television on

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Speaker 1: Netflix for a few hours because I can't. I just

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Speaker 1: can't deal with much else, and then tomorrow morning I'll

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Speaker 1: get up and face it. Right that there's a strategic

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Speaker 1: decision there that says, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: shut down tonight, I'm gonna escape healthy escape now Ideally

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Speaker 1: that that choice in that moment isn't something that's harming us.

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Speaker 1: So there's a difference between s and I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: have a glass of wine tonight. If I know that

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Speaker 1: I can tolerate that and it doesn't become a slippery

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Speaker 1: slope into an addiction, then you know, if there's we're

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Speaker 1: grabbing something that we can't actually exercise control over. So

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Speaker 1: that's why I use the Netflix example. But there's a

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Speaker 1: difference between that sort of self leadership, a strategic choice

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Speaker 1: of I need to decompress in this moment, maybe I'll

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Speaker 1: take a walk, maybe I'll take some deep breaths, but

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Speaker 1: also maybe I'll watch the Netflix. You know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's not always the most there's a spectrum of healthy

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Speaker 1: coping strategies that's very different category. I just described then,

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Speaker 1: a pattern of behaviors over time where every single night

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Speaker 1: I work throughout my day and then I go bury

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Speaker 1: myself in television and entertainment and social media and food,

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Speaker 1: in whatever the thing is, day after day after day

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Speaker 1: after day, and I'm never circling back to become consciously

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Speaker 1: aware of the things that are hard in my life

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Speaker 1: that I actually need to work through with intention. And

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Speaker 1: so that's where we start to let those numbing devices

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Speaker 1: just keeping ourselves constantly distracted, constantly hooked up to some

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Speaker 1: sort of kind of false dopamine hit. Maybe it's a

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Speaker 1: real dopamine hit, but we're hooked up to it in

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Speaker 1: such a way that we're never unhooking ourselves to face

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Speaker 1: that even the sometimes painful emotions, the dissonance, the challenges

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Speaker 1: that really need our conscious, mindful attention.

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Speaker 2: And so this may seem like an obvious question or

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Speaker 2: a question with an obvious answer. Tee you, but I

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Speaker 2: think I fear that maybe it's not obvious to some

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Speaker 2: people who are listening, which is, yeah, okay, I hear

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Speaker 2: what you're saying, but you don't know what I've like,

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Speaker 2: I know how tough and hard those things are to

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Speaker 2: deal with, right, I mean I ran from mind for

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Speaker 2: years and then realize through EMDR therapy there's things I

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Speaker 2: had even seen, you know, stuffed that I didn't even

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Speaker 2: know fully what I was dealing with. So yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: you guys are saying that, but you don't know how hard.

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Speaker 2: Why do I have to face those things? Why can't

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Speaker 2: I just shop it away, drink it away?

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Speaker 3: Whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, first of all, there is something we call pacing,

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Speaker 1: which you know, if you've done EMDR therapy, where you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't face all those in the If you've never done

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Speaker 1: this work, if you've never developed a practice, I see

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Speaker 1: this as a spiritual practice, right, As part of our

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Speaker 1: spiritual practices is to mind our mind, is to pay

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Speaker 1: attention to what we're thinking about, what we're feeling, what

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Speaker 1: we're noticing, even our pain points. If you've never done this,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a backlog. You are probably going

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Speaker 1: to want to do it. In a supportive community, with

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Speaker 1: a therapist, with a small group, with a group of friends.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to do all of that by yourself

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Speaker 1: because there's a backlog there and it can feel overwhelming

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Speaker 1: to folks the once you've stat And that was my

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Speaker 1: story early on, even as a therapist in training in

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Speaker 1: my late twenties early thirties, I wasn't doing this work myself,

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Speaker 1: and so when I started to, it was very overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: Now you know, in my life, I've done so much

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Speaker 1: of this work that it's actually a joy. I've made

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Speaker 1: friends with these parts of myself. I've examined the deeper

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Speaker 1: recesses of myself. It's not that there aren't places there

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Speaker 1: that I don't still go, WHOA, what is that doing there?

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Speaker 1: But is that I'm less shocked by It's that I'm

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Speaker 1: less overwhelmed by it. It's that I'm like, oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: of course there you are old friends and much more

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Speaker 1: quickly able to access the grace and goodness of God

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Speaker 1: in those moments. So it is a practice over time,

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Speaker 1: and so yes, if you're new to this work, it's

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Speaker 1: going to take a minute to wean yourself off of

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Speaker 1: the numbing and coping. Sometimes The other thing that's interesting,

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Speaker 1: especially for Christians, is sometimes folks cope with otherwise good,

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Speaker 1: healthy things. I see this particularly like I read about

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Speaker 1: this in the Best of You. We cope through our service, right.

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Speaker 1: We bury ourselves in the problems of others because we

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Speaker 1: can't we don't want to face our own that that's layered, right,

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Speaker 1: It's going to take some time and some practices to

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Speaker 1: just balance out. I like to think about it, if

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Speaker 1: you think about working out, balance out those different muscles.

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Speaker 1: It's wonderful to show up and support of others, but

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Speaker 1: you also have to develop this other muscle of showing

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Speaker 1: up for your own heartaches, your own pain. And so

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Speaker 1: it's a process.

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Speaker 2: That reminds me of I think it's in Mere Christianity

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Speaker 2: where C. S. Lewis talks about the mom who is

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Speaker 2: always busy, right, like, was always trying to, you know,

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Speaker 2: do the laundry and do the like, just like needed

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Speaker 2: to be needed, right, and how that was an unhealthy

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Speaker 2: thing for her because it was done in a sense,

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Speaker 2: it was unselfishness, or selfishness masquerading as unselfishness, right.

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Speaker 3: And that was destructive.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this, I think as I've

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Speaker 2: talked about my journey, you know, and I've talked about

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Speaker 2: and I've dealt with with with trauma that I went

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Speaker 2: through as a child. What it seems to me that

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Speaker 2: there has been a little bit of hesitance in the

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Speaker 2: in the Christian community, not necessarily the Christian mental health community,

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Speaker 2: of which you are such a leader in, but in

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Speaker 2: the in the general Christian community to talk about trauma,

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Speaker 2: to want to deal with it, even just some people

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Speaker 2: that I've talked with, is like, you know, basically, is

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Speaker 2: that kind of like, well, is that kind of like

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Speaker 2: the new age science stuff?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: What have you seen when it comes to combating that

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Speaker 2: and how have you combatd that if you've seen it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a growing awareness in Christian circles

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Speaker 1: of the reality of trauma and it's impact, lasting impact

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Speaker 1: on our lives. I think it's behind, obviously the rest

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Speaker 1: of the culture significantly. I think it's catching up. I

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Speaker 1: use this term I talked about it in the best

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Speaker 1: of you. I talk about it a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't feel this way. It's called spiritual bypassing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Whenever I post about that on social media, I always

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Speaker 1: get quite a bit of traction. Folks really relate to it.

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Speaker 1: But this is a lot of what we see in

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Speaker 1: Christian circles what's called spiritual bypassing, where you spiritualize yes problems,

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Speaker 1: and it's the kind of thing where when someone says

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Speaker 1: to you, you know, if you're hurting, like well, just

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Speaker 1: trust God more. God will take that pain away, or

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Speaker 1: why why are you sad? You know, Jesus doesn't want

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Speaker 1: you to feel sad or faith over fear, these sort

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Speaker 1: of simplistic over spiritualizations that don't honor the fullness and

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Speaker 1: the reality of our human complexity that we also see

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Speaker 1: modeled in Jesus right by the way, the fullness of

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Speaker 1: human complexity at all the emotions. And so I think

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Speaker 1: there is that still within churches based on the reactions

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Speaker 1: I get when I talk about it, Folks just really

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Speaker 1: latch onto that, like we will we sort of had

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Speaker 1: this divide. We will go to our therapist, you know,

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Speaker 1: out in the world who's kind of helping us honor

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Speaker 1: some of those painful experiences that affect our behaviors and

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Speaker 1: affect our our mental help today. But then at church

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Speaker 1: it sort of like pray those things away, right, just

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Speaker 1: trust God, and there can be this over spiritualization. So

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Speaker 1: that's what I really try to speak into. We don't

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Speaker 1: want to not account for the spiritual reality of God's

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Speaker 1: role in our lives. And also we have so many

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Speaker 1: tools available to us, just like in the field of medicine,

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Speaker 1: where we understand so much more deeply how the human mind, emotion,

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Speaker 1: the nervous system works. And so I like to think

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Speaker 1: about John. I talk about this all the time on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. But this Greek word soso that is translated salvation.

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Speaker 1: Often in the New Testament, work out your salvation, your

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Speaker 1: soso with fear and trembling. Jesus uses it often your

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Speaker 1: faith has saved you, so soo often that word is

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Speaker 1: also translated as healing. And when you think about that

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Speaker 1: word healing, we're working on our healing with God. Our

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Speaker 1: faith has healed us. It'sn't that connotation of healing as

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Speaker 1: an ongoing process. We're healing these different parts of us

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Speaker 1: that have been wounded, and it's not as zapp of

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Speaker 1: the wand it's a invitation into the ongoing work of healing.

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Speaker 1: And I think so many of us have received that

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Speaker 1: sort of one dimensional kind of one and done. You're

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Speaker 1: saved right, you've been rescued, you've been plucked out, which

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to argue theologically, but from a psychological perspective,

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Speaker 1: that is a that process of healing is an ongoing work.

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Speaker 1: That work, you can call it sanctification, you can call

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Speaker 1: it healing, is an ongoing work right of being transformed

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Speaker 1: into the image of Christ. And so I believe psychology

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Speaker 1: comes right along side of that and gives us these

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Speaker 1: tools to work out that healing in partnership with God's spirit.

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Speaker 1: It's through trauma work, through MDR, through nervous system regulation,

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Speaker 1: through emotional health, really understanding the different parts of us,

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Speaker 1: the different ways God made us. All of that is

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Speaker 1: part of this beautiful journey that we're on.

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Speaker 2: I love that you talked about working it out right

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Speaker 2: because I think a big part of what I write

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Speaker 2: about is messy sanctification, right, and that it is this

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Speaker 2: ongoing process. And I wish that sanctification only meant that,

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Speaker 2: like I used to curse and now I don't curse.

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Speaker 2: But sometimes it's you know, I was an alcoholic and

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Speaker 2: now I'm working on not being an alcoholic.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean exactly?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it doesn't always have to you know, sanctification and

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Speaker 2: working out your healing doesn't always fit into this nice,

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Speaker 2: pretty little box.

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Speaker 1: And I think sanctification is a great phrase.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly exactly, So thank you for that.

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Speaker 2: And it also reminds me too of you know, I

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Speaker 2: you know, for my mental health, I still take medication,

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Speaker 2: and I am grateful for that, right, And I don't

433
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: I know, there's a lot of people that I talked

434
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: to you that are like, Okay, if I start taking medication,

435
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 2: how soon can I get off of it? And I'm like,

436
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like I'm still on it, and I

437
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 2: thank God for that because it helps regulate me, right,

438
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 2: helps me take you know, those things in stride. And

439
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: so my goal is not to get off of it.

440
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 2: My goal is to just as long as I need

441
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: to be on it, I'm going to beyond it.

442
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: Right.

443
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 2: It's a common grace that the Lord has afforded us

444
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 2: that I'm so thankful for. You had a whole podcast

445
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: episode on this, and so we don't have to we

446
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: don't have to rehash it, but people can go listen

447
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: to it. But you talked about the role of sin

448
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: in kind of our struggles, and so, like I said,

449
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 2: I mean this is something that deserves a whole, a

450
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: whole episode. But I think, you know, there's some people

451
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 2: that I've talked to about this, even Christians, who have said,

452
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: don't talk about addiction in any way, shape or form

453
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: as it you know, results, or as it relates to sin.

454
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: That's only using moralistic terms and people will not get better.

455
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: And then there's other people who have said, you know,

456
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: you know, it's only it's only a sin and a

457
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: heart issue. And I think, just like in my mental

458
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 2: health work, I fall in between. It's like I have

459
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: a predisposition. There's alcoholism in my family. Did I have

460
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: a physic Did I have physical withdrawal? Yes, my body.

461
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 2: All those things are physical. And yet I know I

462
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 2: had a spiritual issue as well, you know, and that

463
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: I was sinning by getting drunk.

464
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 3: I knew I shouldn't and I was right.

465
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: So how do you, as a Christian mental health professional,

466
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: thread that needle between where sin comes in?

467
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that binary you just described is back to

468
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: that dissonance. I know I shouldn't, but I am. And

469
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: I think that this is where I'm gonna introduce or

470
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: bring bring into the conversation the initial the original book

471
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: that I wrote this idea of there are different parts

472
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: of us, the complexity of the human soul, so which

473
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: kind of explains some of that dissonance, I think in

474
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: a more robust way. But to your point about sin,

475
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: I tend to the word has gotten a bad rap,

476
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: you know, got it's gotten all this shaming connotation around it, right,

477
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: an overly moralistic shaming connotation if you really just parse

478
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: it out, the simplest understanding of the word sin is

479
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: missing the mark, and we don't. Sometimes we miss the

480
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,239
Speaker 1: mark out of wilful, wilful, Like you said, there's this

481
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: there's a heart issue, wilful rejection of what God wants.

482
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: Sometimes we miss the mark as a result, and so

483
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: this would bring in the framing how are we framing it?

484
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: Sometimes we miss the mark because of our our capacity

485
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: has been exceeded, and and you know, we miss the

486
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: mark because we lash out at our family member, at

487
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: a kid or whatever, because we've just been completely bombarded

488
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: with too much in that day. And it's not this willful,

489
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: you know it now, Listen neither you know, anytime we're

490
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: naming sin in our lives, it's only constructive insofar as

491
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: we name it with that shame, even to your point

492
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: where we're able to go, oh my gosh, God, I

493
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: do not want to follow you on this thing you're

494
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: asking me to do, and I might not, But again,

495
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 1: and I'm naming that honestly, right to the degree that

496
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: we are able to bring that before God honestly, or

497
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: after the fact that I missed that one and I

498
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: genuinely didn't even see it coming. I didn't even know

499
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: so much of those sins in the rear view mirror,

500
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: you know, we hindsight is twenty We look back and

501
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: over and go, oh, my goodness, what in the world

502
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: was I thinking. In so far as we can name

503
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 1: those missteps without shame, we can just more and more

504
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: and more receive the love and grace of God into

505
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: our whole hearts and souls and minds, and we reduce

506
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: that dissonance because we're not hiding from ourselves and we're

507
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: not shaming ourselves. So again, I think that word sin.

508
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: I love what you said. Sometimes it is a posture

509
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: of the heart. Sometimes our missteps. Sometimes our missteps are

510
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: lack of knowledge. Sometimes our missteps are rooted in our trauma.

511
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: Does that mean or not still accountable for where we

512
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: step over the line or miss the marks, of course,

513
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: but there's just so much more room for compassion when

514
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: we understand some of those different routes of why we

515
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: do what we do.

516
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: That actually brings me to a great question. It's a

517
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: question I got that I want to post to you.

518
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: And it was someone I was talking about in the

519
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,239
Speaker 2: process of writing the manuscript, and someone who saw an

520
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: early copy and and they said, here's what I don't understand, John,

521
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: I don't understand why you're talking about this trauma that

522
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: happened as a child.

523
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 3: You know.

524
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: How did how did that lead to you getting drunk

525
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: and drinking, you know, thirty years later?

526
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 3: Like, I don't.

527
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: I just don't understand that. And I think sometimes it

528
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: took me aback because I'm because, as you've used the term,

529
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: I have been doing the work. But yet I wonder

530
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: if it's something I take for granted, and so I

531
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: put I want to pose it how How how does

532
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: something like a childhood trauma, whether that's the emotional abuse,

533
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, whatever, verbal abuse, how does that lead to addictions?

534
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 3: You know? And how would you explain that to someone?

535
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's a lot of ways to look at it.

536
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: So the best way that I understand it is is

537
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: this idea that we are comprised of many parts, and

538
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: that language is it's just a way of understanding the

539
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: multifaceted nature of the human soul. It's the language that's

540
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: the language of best vent cult but it's also the

541
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: language of scripture. It's also the language of Paul. You know,

542
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: I do what I do not want to do. And

543
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: and the idea that young parts of us, the five

544
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: year old you, that was hurt, that was neglected, that

545
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: was abused in one way or another, that part of

546
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: your carries memories, and those memories live inside you. They

547
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: don't go away. And when we think about trauma, we

548
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: think about what Gibora Matta says, another trauma expert says,

549
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: it's unwitnessed pain. And so when you're a child and

550
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: something really awful happens to you, you, if you don't

551
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: have the chance to reconnect to a loving adult to

552
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: help you understand what happened, you internalize that pain. You

553
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: make meaning out of that pain, and children almost always

554
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: make meaning that is self blaming and self shaming. And so,

555
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: five year old you do, something awful happens to you,

556
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: and no one either it's at the hands of an

557
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: adult who was supposed to care for you and didn't,

558
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: or was at the hands of a stranger and no

559
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: one talked you through what happened. The meaning that children

560
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: make tends to be I did something wrong. I deserved that. Yeah,

561
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: something that I did when I came home from school

562
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: and my parent yelled at me, I did something that

563
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: cost that. They don't understand their level of cognitive complexity.

564
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: A child doesn't understand, Oh, my parent is drunk, or

565
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: my parent was going through a bad time themselves and

566
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: took it out. I mean, they don't understand that they

567
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: internalized that. Those internalized beliefs, internalized feelings, internalized experiences live

568
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: on in our psyche, these in our souls. So you're

569
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: right at adult it So in parts of parts framework,

570
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: these are parts of us that exile that pain. Right,

571
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: and so we have this birth, this pain. Something's happened.

572
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: We don't know what to make sense of it. So

573
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: another part of us is developed, a meaning making part

574
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: of it that says it's your fault. You are not

575
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: worth someone's love, You weren't worth someone showing up for you.

576
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: As a well intent part of you. It's helping you cope.

577
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: But it's how you're dealing with that pain that you

578
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: don't know what to do with because no one is

579
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: there helping you understand the pain of that moment. Right,

580
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: So you exile a pain and you create a narrative

581
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: about it. This is what we do. So you arrive

582
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: at adulthood with all of these different You've still got

583
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: the pain there that no one ever helped you walk through.

584
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: Now you've got the narrative. A lot of this is

585
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: happening under the at the subconscious level, right, and then

586
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: there's this third part of us that comes out. And

587
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: guess what that part does, because sometimes that pain flares up.

588
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: It's like suddenly you're an adult and someone your wife

589
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: or a friend, trips over that same trigger. That pain

590
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: of that starts to surface, that goes all the way

591
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: back to five years old. It's too much, and so

592
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: another part of you comes out that says, I know

593
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: how to make that go way. I'll reach for the

594
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: booze mm hmm.

595
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: Right.

596
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: And so we walk into adulthood with this these parts

597
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: of us that have kind of figured out how to

598
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: cope and figured out how to survive, and not necessarily

599
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: the best of ways, but that's that's the best we

600
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: could do. Yes, And so a lot of adult is

601
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: beginning to unpack what was happening under the surface, which

602
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: means we have to get to the root of that pain,

603
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: to that childhood wound.

604
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you, that was such.

605
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 2: That was such a great explanation, because I think what

606
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: I tried to tell the person was, I'm not you know,

607
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: as a thirty you know, late thirties, man, I'm not

608
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: drinking away my you know, the sexual trauma every day.

609
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 2: That's not what I'm doing. What I'm drinking. What I'm

610
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: drinking away is how I've learned, how that led to this,

611
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: That led to this, which is how you cope. And

612
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 2: then you lies that you believe that's what I'm drinking away,

613
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 2: But it started.

614
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: In many ways, you're drinking away our thirty year old

615
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,959
Speaker 1: self is drinking away the pain of that narrative. Yes,

616
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: that I'm a piece of crap that didn't love, that

617
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: is rooted in that memory that's way below conscious awareness.

618
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: You know. Oftentimes we're drinking away our current narratives about

619
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: ourselves rooted in those childhood pain. And so it is

620
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: it's it's we bring into adulthood. All of these ways

621
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 1: of coping that we developed before we were ready, before

622
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: we do so helps you rethink parenting right. Our as parents,

623
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: our job isn't to be perfect. It's to make sure

624
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: that our hope as best we can to help our

625
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: children not take on the shame based narratives about themselves.

626
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: That's what's at the root that shame.

627
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

628
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so you've you've kind of paved the way

629
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: for this, and you've you've talked about it a little bit,

630
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: but I want to just give you the floor to

631
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: talk about internal family systems and so that's that's this

632
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: kind of parts work you've talked about. And I will

633
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: say doctor Cook, when my trauma therapist, she's certified in

634
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: EMDR as well as IFS internal family systems and parts work.

635
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: We got through the EMDR and she says, Okay, I

636
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: think you're a great candidate for parts work and basically

637
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 2: then goes on to describe how I'm going to talk

638
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 2: to other parts of myself. And I'm like, I feel

639
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: like that's kind of crazy. Like I feel like if

640
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: I wasn't considered crazy before, now I'm gonna imagine myself

641
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: and talk about like what and yet that combination of

642
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: the E MDR and then moving on to the parts work,

643
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: which is which is now what we do.

644
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: Like we've kind of the E MDR.

645
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: We're kind of done with that, and then we just

646
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: kind of continue on in the parts work as I

647
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: need it. Can you what you haven't done already? Can

648
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: you describe what internal family systems is, what parts work is,

649
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: and why it is so helpful?

650
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we started off talking about dissonance right where

651
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: and parts it's just a way of kind of putting

652
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: giving yourself handles to understand that a part of me,

653
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: it almost personifies the impulse because it's so abstract what's

654
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: happening inside of us. A part of me just I

655
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,919
Speaker 1: know I shouldn't reach for the booze man, A part

656
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: of me just wants to. Yeah, it just wants to.

657
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: And so this work kind of it brings us out

658
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: of our cognitive self and just into a whole embodied

659
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: kind of experience of and most people really resonate to it. Yeah. No,

660
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: A part of me is, you know, yelling at my

661
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: kids even while I deeply love them and never would

662
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: want to harm them. How is that possible? And it

663
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: just helps sort of provide this personification of these computing parts.

664
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: The best illustration of it in I think in modern

665
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: years is the inside out movies that are for children,

666
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: and I think that's why everybody loves them. Right, we

667
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: have these different sort of a person sonification of these

668
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: different voices in our heads because they're not just voices,

669
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: they're sort of almost like it's like you can almost

670
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: feel the energy and that part of me, and that

671
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: part of me that really just wants to do what

672
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: I want may be sort of rebellious or wilful. It

673
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: also only you will know. It also might be like

674
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: I can't get through this day without this thing, and

675
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: I need to understand that and get curious about that

676
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: because that is the only way I'm going to truly

677
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: be able to partner with God's spirit to help that

678
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: part of me transform.

679
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll be right back after this.

680
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 2: So you said a word there that has been honestly

681
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: just transformational in my life, and that word is curious.

682
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 3: And I think when I.

683
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: You know, so I've been sober, sober, you know, when

684
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: we're recording this sixteen months, and I would say that

685
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: before I would feel shame, I'd feel anger. A lot

686
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 2: of times directed at myself. And now I've gotten into

687
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: a habit of being curious if I start feeling something, Okay,

688
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: why am I feeling that? Can you talk about the

689
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 2: power of curiosity, especially with yourself.

690
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so, it's so powerful. So the two things

691
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: that I think are so transformational about this model are

692
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: number one, this idea that it's only one part of

693
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: who you are. The addicted part of you is not

694
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: all of you, It is not the depressed part of

695
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: you is not all of who you are. Can feel

696
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: like I am depressed when in fact, or I am

697
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 1: an addict, or I am anxious, when in fact, what's

698
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: really going on in your soul is a part of

699
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,959
Speaker 1: you as hijacked you. It's hijacked the system and taken

700
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: up too much space in the system. But it's not

701
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: inherently who you are as a child got but it

702
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: is a part of you. And so it allows that

703
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: both and of that there is a part of me

704
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: that is doing this thing or is feeling this way,

705
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: it's not all of who I am. So number one,

706
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 1: that differentiation is just so powerful for people to begin

707
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: to realize this is not all of who I am.

708
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: It's a part of me, it's a hurting part of me.

709
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: Then we introduce curiosity. Can I get curious about this

710
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: part of me? I don't have to hate it, because

711
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: it's not all of me. It's a part of me

712
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: that needs my help and needs my care, and needs

713
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: my guidance and might need some general boundaries, some healthy

714
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: boundaries as well. Right, That's hence the title boundaries for

715
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: your soul? Can I get curious about this part of me?

716
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: Because shame never helps? Shame never helps, and almost always,

717
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: right there at the beginning of this work, you begin

718
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: to realize there's a part of me that really wants

719
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: to keep doing this behavior, in this case maybe addiction.

720
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: There's a part of me that just can't stop anxiously

721
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: ruminating whatever the thing is. Right when you begin to

722
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: sense that, almost always, you will sense another part of you,

723
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: the part of you that hates that part. Yes, the

724
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: part of you, the critic, right, the critic, the shaming

725
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 1: part of you. And that part of you is also

726
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: trying to help, not helpful. It's not helpful, and so

727
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: so much of the work is to beginning to replace

728
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: that voice of inner criticism, of shame, and again, a

729
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: partnership with God's Spirit with a voice, a posture of curiosity.

730
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: I wonder what that's about. And right there we begin

731
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: to tap into that what we call the spirit led self,

732
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: the place inside where we can be present to these

733
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 1: different parts of us. Honestly, we can see them. We're

734
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: not denying them any longer. I am doing this thing,

735
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: and I'm also tapped into now the place where the

736
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit lives inside, the spirit led self, the place

737
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: of calm. Nervousness is another way you can look at it,

738
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: where I can actually take some deep breaths and eyes

739
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: wide open, get curious about what's really going on there,

740
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: what do I really need in this moment, what's really

741
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: going on? And then we can begin to transform ourselves,

742
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: one part at a time.

743
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 2: So there's there's a there's a name for a part.

744
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 2: I think you call them if I if I'm if

745
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong.

746
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 3: Fire is it? Firefighters? Yeah, talk talk about.

747
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 2: The firefighter parts of us, because I think that really

748
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: that was really eye opening for me.

749
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: So in the model, there are three primary categories of parts,

750
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: which I like because that's sort of trinitarian. We're made

751
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: in the image of God. We're internally relational. So the

752
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: three types of parts, there's manager parts, fire fighter parts.

753
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 1: In these exiles, I've talked a little about the axiles.

754
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: These are the parts of us a lot of times

755
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,479
Speaker 1: that go all the way back to childhood, that carry

756
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: the pain from the past, that also current pain that

757
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 1: we don't want to face. We want to push that aside.

758
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: What the other two parts, the managers and the firefighters,

759
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: are trying to help us cope without dealing with that pain.

760
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: And so the manager parts of us are the parts

761
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: of us that show up in the world. They want

762
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: to perfect, they want to produce, they want to please,

763
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 1: they want to perform, they want to control, they want

764
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: to analyze. They're trying to prevent pain. And those are

765
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 1: the typical strategies that those parts of us use. Right,

766
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: if I could be perfect enough, I want to have

767
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: to feel this pain. If I can be controlling enough,

768
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: I won't have to feel this pain. If I can

769
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: analyze enough, I won't have to feel this pain. Right,

770
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: they have all these different strategies. The firefighter parts of us,

771
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: to their name, are the second category of part that

772
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: come out when the pain starts to surface. The manager's

773
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: been working really hard, but it's not working. Shoot, I'm

774
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: starting to notice that pain has coming to the surface.

775
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: The firefighter comes in and to put out the flames

776
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: of pain. So they're trying to numb the pain, to

777
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: escape from the pain. And those are the parts of

778
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: us that reach for the booze, that reach for the food,

779
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: that reach for the netflix, that reach for the gambling,

780
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: you know, all of the ways that we check out

781
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: and distract ourselves. They're responding to inner chaos to enter pain,

782
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: to try to doss it out. And a lot of

783
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 1: folks that starts early on, early on, especially with addictions.

784
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: You know, there's that strategy of I can't tolerate what's happening.

785
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: I've got to find something to cope with it. There

786
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: are parts of us trying to survive. And so as

787
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: you become more aware of those different parts inside of

788
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: you and you get curious about them instead of shaming them,

789
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: you can start to realign and the healthy system. Each

790
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: of those parts plays a really a valid rule. But

791
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: we haven't exiled the pain, and so we're aware of it.

792
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: We're like, oh, man, you know, I think about grief, John,

793
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: I think about the parts of us that carry sadness.

794
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: It doesn't Sadness doesn't have to overwhelm us. An Lemki

795
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: in our book Dopamineation talks about how when we tend

796
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: to the right amount of pain over time, that pain

797
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: no longer becomes intolerable. We actually need to able to go. Man,

798
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit sad today. I've got to go

799
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 1: to work. So my manager part's going to come out,

800
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: going to get me to work, and I'm going to

801
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: show up, but I'm going to carry with me this

802
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: little bit of sadness. Yeah, both of those things can coexist.

803
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: And when we do that, then that firefighter comes in

804
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: later in the dances. Man, you worked really hard today,

805
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: you were sad, you went to work, you did the things.

806
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: Let's just something really nice, nice for ourselves. What would

807
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: that be that would feel really good in a healthy way, Right,

808
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: So those parts can be constructed when we bring the

809
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 1: system into alignment.

810
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 2: I think that's it is such a perfect analogy for

811
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 2: what I experienced, Right, I had this trauma, I had

812
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 2: these these coping mechanisms that developed. You know, I published

813
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 2: my first book, and my drinking actually got better.

814
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: Right because the success the manager part of.

815
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: Me like great, Yeah, great, but then you know, as

816
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: you know, you publish a book, the press dies down,

817
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: it never does as well as you think it should

818
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: absolutely do, right, and then the lies really start right.

819
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: And then that's where for me, the alcohol firefighter came

820
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: in and was like, let's douse this right. So it

821
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: is such a perfect, perfect analogy.

822
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: And and yeah, and I would say to that example, John,

823
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: after the surge of the book dies down, right, the

824
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: pain that you feel isn't just about that. It's the

825
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: whole backlog. I call it the long tail pain that

826
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: goes all the way back to the messages from when

827
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: you're five year old, I'm not good enough, I'm worthless,

828
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: whatever those messages are that haven't been healed all the

829
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 1: way back, right. So it's a lot that comes in

830
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: that those firefighters have to deal with, which is so.

831
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 3: Interesting you talk about that.

832
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I re member, and I think I talked

833
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 2: about this either in my workbook or the first book.

834
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: But where I remember the first time I started feeling

835
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 2: those feelings. They seemingly came out of nowhere. I mean

836
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 2: I was maybe twelve and and my mom we lived,

837
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: we lived in rural Wisconsin. Our mailbox was at the

838
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 2: end of a gravel road. We pull up, we get

839
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: the mail, I go, I go out to get the mail.

840
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: I get the mail and I look through and there's

841
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: nothing for me. I'm twelve, of course there's nothing for me,

842
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 2: but this lie, and I remember it just gripped me

843
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: for the rest of the day. And I remember telling

844
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: you I'm not important, no one cares about me. And

845
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: she's like, where is this coming from? And and I

846
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 2: get it. She was confused, right, I didn't know where

847
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: it was coming from. But for whatever reason, it was

848
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: like like that triggering moment of like, yeah, that's the backlog, right,

849
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: that's part.

850
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: Of the lie that I then it wasn't only about

851
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: the mail, no, exactly, no, exactly, yes, yes, yes.

852
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: So you talk about now, going back to a part

853
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: of the naming conversation, there is a part of I

854
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: shouldn't feel this way that I think is just absolutely beautiful,

855
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 2: and it's where you talk I mean, there's plenty of

856
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 2: parts I think are absolutely beautiful, but where you talk

857
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: about Jacob and you know he's wrestling, and and you

858
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: know his name means receiver or excuse me, deceiver, and

859
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: you talk about the idea of a holy reframe and

860
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: I think it is such beautiful language. I quoted it

861
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: in Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic. But can you talk

862
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 2: about this idea of a holy reframe?

863
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have in psychology a lot of language around

864
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: reframing our thoughts. So I believe that I'm a bad person, Well,

865
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: what's a free How do I reframe that? Well, I'm

866
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: someone who's doing my best right. But what I find

867
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: when you magnify that with the power of God's spirit,

868
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: right where you get a whole new narrative, a whole

869
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: new story, a whole new name. And in Jacob's case,

870
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: it's just so powerful. And in that story in particular,

871
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: if you think about his story, he he's done some

872
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: kind of crummy things. You know, we don't talk about that,

873
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 1: but you know, swindled his brother and did some crummy things,

874
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: and there's a reason his brother is pretty mad at him,

875
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: you know. But then you also when you follow his story,

876
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: he's grown. He's actually also been heard himself. He's really

877
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: worked to become a man of integrity, He's paid some

878
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 1: of his debts, he's you know, you have this sense

879
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: that he's a different person now. That doesn't erase the

880
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: things that he's done in the past, but he is

881
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:40,919
Speaker 1: a different person now and now he's got to face

882
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: his brother right in this moment when he has the

883
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: dream he's got who you know, this was back in

884
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: the day before social media, so for all he knows,

885
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 1: you know, his brother's so you know, carrying that same

886
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: grice however many years ago, right, and so we'll forget

887
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: about social media in the days before newspapers. And so it's

888
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,439
Speaker 1: like he's wrestling with God. And this is my kind

889
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: of take on it, but he's wrestling with God and

890
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: there is this wrestling of you know, I'm still I

891
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: am still that guy I was that that guy's in me.

892
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: You know, he remembers that he's not again. This kind

893
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: of gets us out of the gas lighting up. I'm

894
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,479
Speaker 1: not that person anymore. Well, you know, that guy's still

895
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 1: there too, But I'm also more than that guy. I'm

896
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 1: I've grown, I've changed.

897
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: You know.

898
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: And there's that wrestling with God and he's in there.

899
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: It's a really powerful moment where he's given a new

900
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 1: name and a new story by God that transcends all

901
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: of these things. And so that's that holy reframe. I

902
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: think so many of us can relate to. You know,

903
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: I can't necessarily erase the sins, for lack of a

904
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: better word, of my past, and I kin'd erase what

905
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: I've done. But there's something transcendent in those moments when

906
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 1: we really wrestle with all of that with God, where

907
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: God doesn't you know, even the fact that Jacob comes

908
00:50:58,280 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: out of that with the limp, I think there is

909
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: there's a real thing of like, yeah, there's a real

910
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes there are wounds that don't fully get healed, wounds

911
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: maybe to other people, wounds for ourself. I think we

912
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: yearn for that kind of honesty in this day and age,

913
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: right and instead of the quick fix where and also

914
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: I've wrestled with God and I'm okay, and I'm a

915
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 1: new person, and I'm coming out of this and I'm

916
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: going into a whole new life and and a whole

917
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: new calling, with a whole new name and a whole

918
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: new narrative. And that's the holy reframe. I think the

919
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: holy reframe that we're holy whole accounts for the whole

920
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: of the story, but it also transcends that story when

921
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: we bring it into partnership with God.

922
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 2: Well, that has been in a sense the story of

923
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 2: the last you know, over a year and a half. Yeah,

924
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 2: And so when I read that, it just resonated with me,

925
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 2: and I hope that it resonates with people who are listening,

926
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: because I think my message to them, I think what

927
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: your message to them is to is is is that

928
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: you know you can't you can be Jacob that has

929
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: a limp that there are consequence right, there are things,

930
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: yeah that you may have to live with for the

931
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: rest of your life, but it doesn't that part of

932
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 2: Jacob doesn't have to be all of Jacob. Right, my

933
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 2: alcoholic self, the things I did and said, those are

934
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 2: a part of me, and I'm owning them, and I'm

935
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: you know, in a sense, they're I'm in a sense

936
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 2: maybe proud is the wrong word, but they're a part

937
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: of me, and they've shaped who I am today and

938
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 2: now I can own that. Right. I joke with people that, like,

939
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 2: my goal is to be uncancellable, and what I mean

940
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 2: is like, I'm just going to own it. Like if

941
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 2: you have a story about me, you know, in the past,

942
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 2: like I'd be like, yep, exactly, that was the whole

943
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 2: part of me, you know, exactly.

944
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: We yearn for that kind of honesty. I love that

945
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: you're bringing that to the surface.

946
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, doctor Cook, thank you so much for joining us.

947
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 2: This has been such a treat I cannot encourage everyone

948
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: enough to get I shouldn't feel this way, to get

949
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,919
Speaker 2: boundaries for your soul, and to listen to the Best

950
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: of You podcast. I am a regular listener. I really

951
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 2: appreciate the work you're doing.

952
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 3: Thank you.

953
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,720
Speaker 2: The Christian mental health space is one that needs people

954
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 2: like you, and I would say even the addiction Christian

955
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: addiction space because your stuff is so transferable. So if

956
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 2: people want to learn more about you, if they want

957
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: to get in touch with what you're doing, where should

958
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 2: they go?

959
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. John. Doctor Alisoncook dot com

960
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: is my website kind of the hub of everything. You

961
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: can find all the links there. I'm doctor Allison Cook

962
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: on Instagram, at Facebook. I show up there sporadically. And

963
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: then the Best of You podcast is anywhere podcasts are found.

964
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 2: What is by the way, And you don't have to

965
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: answer this, but I'm springing this on you because I

966
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 2: don't think. I don't think your world is done with

967
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 2: just I shouldn't feel this way. Is there anything you're

968
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 2: working on or is there anything that's kind of noodling

969
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 2: in that brain of yours that we might expect to

970
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 2: see something.

971
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: Else on I do. I am working on other projects.

972
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: Nothing I can can really formally announce, yes I know,

973
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: but yes, yes, you're right, always always working on on

974
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 1: other projects. Really just trying to think about what's going

975
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: to serve serve folks that are you know, engaged with

976
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 1: my work.

977
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 2: So I appreciate that. Yeah, well, thank you, thanks again,

978
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 2: and and maybe as we kind of progress on this,

979
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 2: we'll get have an excuse to have you found to

980
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 2: talk more.

981
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:25,439
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

982
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: Thank you.

983
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 3: What a gift? Right was that?

984
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 2: Was that as encouraging to you as it was to

985
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 2: me even just listening to it back again?

986
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 1: Uh?

987
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 2: You know, I just think that the idea that healing

988
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 2: is possible, that that our trauma doesn't have to have

989
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 2: the final word, and that you know, naming our struggles

990
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 2: without shame can really be a doorway to transformation. All

991
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 2: of those things I think are just so important, and

992
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 2: especially like I said in the info, the the idea

993
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 2: of a holy reframe that story of Jacob and how

994
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,760
Speaker 2: the Lord can rewrite the narrative of our lives even

995
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 2: though we walk away with a limp, and I can

996
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,879
Speaker 2: be honest, I walk with a limp, right, Like, there

997
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 2: are still some things that pop up that, yeah, I

998
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 2: walk with a limp, And so I think the goal

999
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 2: is not necessarily to walk without a limp, but I

1000
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 2: think it's to give glory to the Lord for how

1001
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 2: he has changed the narrative of our stories, given us

1002
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 2: a new name like he did with Jacob.

1003
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: Again.

1004
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 2: If you appreciated any of that, please pick up her

1005
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 2: books Boundaries for your Soul and I shouldn't feel this way.

1006
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 2: You can also give her podcast to listen, the Best

1007
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 2: of You really great podcast, some great some great people

1008
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 2: that she has on there as well. Thank you for

1009
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 2: joining me. If you've enjoyed this, please rate, subscribe. And

1010
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: one thing I guess I really haven't asked you to

1011
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: do is share, Like, is there one person, one person

1012
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: that you can think of that there was something said

1013
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: in this episode that you're like, you know what they

1014
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 2: need to hear this?

1015
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 3: Could you do this?

1016
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 2: Just just send it to them, just like hit the

1017
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 2: share button and text it to them. I think that's

1018
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 2: that's really it's really important, Like I want the message

1019
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: of what is being said on this podcast to get

1020
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 2: to the people who need it most. And you, you listener,

1021
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 2: person listening right now, know who needs it the most.

1022
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: So there's one person that you can think of, please

1023
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:34,720
Speaker 2: share it with them. As always, check out life audio

1024
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 2: dot com or podcast partner that makes this show possible

1025
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 2: for some other great podcasts. We'll see you here next week.