1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hey Dot, thanks for joining me. Thanks for 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: having me. 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 2: Todd Nelton. Of course you are with Voice of the Martyrs, 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 2: where you serve as a vice president. You're the host 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 2: of Voice of the Martyrs Radio Todd On June twenty ninth, 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 2: upcoming here as we record this, Christians worldwide will mark 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 2: the Day of the Christian Martyr. It's a global day 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 2: of remembrance and this year Voice of the Martyrs is 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: spotlighting Perpetua, a young woman and I read about in 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 2: My Whole life. She died for her faith back in 11 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 2: two three AD. Her story is really inspiring and I 12 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: want to get you in here to talk about it. 13 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: Tell us about who Perpetual was and why do you 14 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: think her story still resonates today. 15 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: Great question. Perpetua's a pretty amazing example of faithfulness. She 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: was twenty two years old. She was killed in a 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: Roman colisseum in the ancient city of Carthage, which was 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: a Roman outpost in North Africa. The arena is actually 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: still there, it is in modern day Tunisia. And she 20 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: was from a well educated from a noble family, a 21 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: high ranking family in the culture, and she met Jesus 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: and the Roman authorities were demanding everybody has to offer 23 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: sacrifices to the Roman gods. You have to offer sacrifices 24 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: on behalf of the emperor, and perpetuous that I can't 25 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: do that. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ. And because 26 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: of that, she was arrested, she was locked in jail 27 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: and ultimately killed in the arena. The thing that's so 28 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: amazing about her story, and frankly, the reason we know 29 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: so much about her, is she kept a journal while 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: she was in prison, talking about what was going on, 31 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: talking about her own father bringing her baby to the 32 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: prison and saying, listen, Perpetua, light the candle, say whatever 33 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: they want you to say, just come home and raise 34 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: your baby, and her literally telling her father father, I'm 35 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: a Christian, I can't do that. The reason we know 36 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: her story is because that journal has survived. In fact, 37 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: as I looked into this ahead of day the Christian Martyr, 38 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: it is one of the earliest examples, maybe the earliest 39 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: example we have of a woman's writing that still survives today. 40 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: So that's part of why this story is so significant. 41 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: But it's also significant just because she was faithful. 42 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and this is two hundred and three eighty so 43 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: this is about one hundred and eighty or so years 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: after the ascension of Christ. You might have had great 45 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: great grandchildren of people who knew Jesus. I don't know 46 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: how that carries out in terms of the great grates, 47 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: but it's surely after the time of Christ. And another 48 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: part of the story that I want to mention here 49 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: as well, as her father used her nursing infant son 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: as kind of an emotional temptation for her to deny Christ, 51 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: pleading have pity on your baby. I think those were 52 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: the words. And of course many persecuted Christians today are 53 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: ridiculed and shunned and ostracized by their faith family and 54 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: intended to deny Christ as well. You've spend more than 55 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: two decades, I believe, Todd, supporting the persecuted church nationwide 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: or worldwide. When you read stories like Perpetua, what parallels 57 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: do you see about her experience and maybe the stories 58 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: you're hearing from Christians today. You know, it's interesting because 59 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 2: as I mentioned, this was modern day Tunisia. Well, they're 60 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 2: still Christian persecution in Tudition. It happens right right around 61 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: that same arena. 62 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: Now. Typically today the first line of persecution. There is 63 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: your family members. If you leave Islam and choose to 64 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: follow Jesus Christ, typically the first person who's going to 65 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: ask you about that is your dad, or your big 66 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: brother or your uncle. Somebody's going to come along and say, listen, 67 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: we're a Muslim family. And now you say you're a Christian, 68 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 1: So you're not part of our family anymore. We don't 69 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: have a place for you anymore. And you know that 70 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: sounds harsh and hard for us as Americans, but in 71 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: that culture, you're family connections are the key to your 72 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: whole future. It's the key to your education, it's the 73 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: key to your job prospects, it's the key to finding 74 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: a spouse. All of that happens through family connections. And 75 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: so when your family says we have no place for you, 76 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: you do not belong among us, your future evaporates. In 77 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: that moment, your future is gone. And so people are 78 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: still willing to make that sacrifice. And you know, one 79 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: of the conversations I had when I was in Tunition 80 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: was with a pastor and he said, you know, we 81 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: as the church, we have to be ready to be 82 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: the family for these new believers because they are likely 83 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: to lose their family here on earth. They're losing their 84 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: birth family, so we need to be ready to step 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: in and say, hey, you still have a family. It's 86 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: the family of God. Wow, that's that's that's powerful. 87 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 2: Of course, we're talking about June twenty ninth, which is 88 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: the Day of the Christian Martyr or Global Day of Remembrance. 89 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: You kind of answered some of my questions. My next 90 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: question there, Todd, but I'm going to ask it anyway. 91 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: Why are for those it's easy for Americans to realize 92 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 2: that it's easy for Americans to forget the fact that 93 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: many people of faith the worldwide are just persecuted for 94 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: just what we take for granted, which is just to 95 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: read your Bible, to go to church. So for those 96 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: who you know are kind of just catching up here, 97 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: what are the reasons for persecution worldwide? What are the 98 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: most common reasons that governments and communities and families oppose them? 99 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 2: In other words, what's the big deal? Why can't people 100 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: worship freely worldwide? 101 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: That's kind of the question, you know, why do you 102 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: care as the government, as the leader of the local mosque, 103 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: Why do you care if I follow Jesus and then 104 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: don't follow what you're doing honestly, if you boil it down, 105 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: Oftentimes it comes down to power. I think of you 106 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: know Communist China, why do they persecute Christians? Well, the 107 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: Communist Party of China wants you to wake up every 108 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: morning and think, how do I be a good Communist today? 109 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: How can I honor the Communist Party today? I'm a 110 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: follower of Jesus. Hopefully I wake up every morning and say, 111 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: how can I bring glory to Jesus today? How can 112 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: I follow him? Well, the Communist Party doesn't want competition. 113 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: They don't want you thinking about following Jesus. They want 114 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: you thinking about the party in an Islamic context like Tunisia, 115 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: like North Africa. There is a religious element to that, like, hey, 116 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: we're Muslims. We think now if you leave Islam, you're 117 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: an apostate. But often again it comes down to power. 118 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: We don't want you to do something different. We're going 119 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: to enforce our will on you and make you do 120 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: what we do, what our family does, what our culture does. 121 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: And so like say, there's different ideologies that sort of 122 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: drive it or animate it, but oftentimes it comes down 123 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: to just power. We want to be in charge, we 124 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: want you to do what you're told, and now you say, 125 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm not doing what I'm told, I'm following Jesus. Yeah. 126 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: Oftentimes it's a misunderstanding of what Christians are, which which 127 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 2: are the best citizens at at least we should be. 128 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 2: In China, they're todd The government of China, of course, 129 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: claims that Christians can worship freely. They have a church 130 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: that's supported by the government, but it seems like on 131 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: the ground it's a different story that the Christians there say, no, 132 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: that's not a free church. What is the truth there 133 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,559 Speaker 2: in China? Can you worship freely? 134 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: In China? You cannot worship freely? The yes, there is 135 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: a state sponsored church. In fact, there's a state sponsored 136 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: Protestant church. There's a state sponsored Catholic church. There are 137 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: I understand state sponsored mosques if you're a Muslim and 138 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: you but at the end of the day, those institutions 139 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: answer to the Communist Party. They answer to the Chinese government, 140 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: and we should never forget the Communist Party teaching is 141 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: there is no God, so yes, you can worship God 142 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: who doesn't exist according to our rules. So obviously many 143 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: Christians say, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm 144 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: not going to subjugate my religious expression, my religious experience 145 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: to a government that denies the existence of God. And 146 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: so you have what's called the unregistered church. And to 147 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: be in a registered church is to go to a 148 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: state of proof building, to be led in a service 149 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: by a state of proof pastor, and not to take 150 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: anybody under eighteen years old, because the state does not 151 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,679 Speaker 1: want the children to be indoctrinated. So if you're wanting 152 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: to do any of those things, you don't have a 153 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: pastor who can preach the whole Bible without checking in 154 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: with anybody. If you want to take your children with 155 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,119 Speaker 1: you to church, you need to go to an unregistered church. 156 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: Every time those unregistered churches meet, that's an illegal act. 157 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: They are breaking the law. Just by gathering together. They're 158 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: breaking the law, and so they are subject to being 159 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: raided by the police. Oftentimes the leaders are arrested and 160 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: carted off to jail, but everyone is harassed, everyone is 161 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: photo id, their documents are taken. Oftentimes they will go 162 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: to work the next day and hear from their boss, oh, hey, 163 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: I heard you were caught at an unregistered religious gathering. 164 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: That doesn't look good for your employment. Prospects, or you 165 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: go to rent an apartment and they say, oh, well 166 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: you have this on your record. Sorry, we can't rent 167 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: an apartment to you. So there are lots of penalties, 168 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: lots of ways that they pay a price just for 169 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: gathering together to worship, to pray together, to study God's 170 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: word together. That is a crime in China. 171 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you mentioned not able to take your children 172 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: to church. I think that's one thing that would shock 173 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: many Americans. But also you also reference this as well, 174 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: that the sermons there are checked by communist authorities and 175 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: sometimes stuff's taken out. Sometimes oftentimes stuff is put in. 176 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 2: They want the sermons to be Chinese centric to Communist centric. 177 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: Am I correct there? 178 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: You are correct about that. And we have been told 179 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: pastors are not allowed to preach in registered churches about 180 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: the Second Coming. Uh. The Chinese government calls that the 181 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: doomsday theory. We're not going to have you spouting off 182 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: about the doomsday theory from our pulpit. And so you know, obviously, 183 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: as you think as a Christian, as someone who reads 184 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: the Bible, well wait, if you can't talk about the 185 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: Second Coming, you know that leaves out a big part 186 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: of the story. How are we going to how are 187 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: we going to get the whole gospel out there if 188 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: we don't talk about that. But that is not allowed 189 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: in Chinese registered church. 190 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: Let's talk about Nigeria and Nigeria as a as a 191 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: country that is often mentioned in mainstream media as a 192 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: place where there is persecution, and there's often a debate 193 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 2: over what is happening there because Nigerian I think the 194 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: government of Nigeria or the authorities there claim that it's 195 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: it's a competition for land, that it's it's an age 196 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 2: ode I guess, a competition for competition for land, and 197 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: that it's not religious in nature. But of course I 198 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: think Voice of the Martyrs and others say that no 199 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 2: Christians are being persecuted there. What is going on? That's 200 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: my first question. And secondly, is there any nuance here 201 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 2: in terms of what is happening in Nigeria? 202 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: So what is happening is primarily happening in the northern 203 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: part of the country, and you see, yes, there is 204 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: competition for land that is a part of it. And 205 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: yes there is some tribal or ethnic animosity that sometimes 206 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: factors into some of the violence. But what our staff 207 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: in Nigeria have seen is when you go to a 208 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: village that has just been attacked and the Christian home 209 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: was burned down and the Muslim's house right next door 210 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: was left alone, and you're like, well, wait a minute, 211 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: that doesn't seem to be about you know, farmers versus 212 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: herders or about land. It seems like the Christians houses 213 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: all got lit on fire and the Muslim houses didn't. Well, 214 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: that was Christian persecution. That was targeting of Christians. And 215 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: we actually I just recorded an interview last week for 216 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: Voice of the Mars radio. We haven't even aired it yet, 217 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: with a guy who met some Fulani Christians. Now Fulani 218 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: Christians had been persecutors of Christians, and they talked about 219 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: targeting Christians like when they are looking for a place 220 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: to take their cattle, they are specifically looking for a 221 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: Christian guarden, a Christian farm. That's where they're going to 222 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: go and eat up all the crops, and so it 223 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: is targeted persecution. So you have that going on, and 224 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: then you also have terrorist groups like Boko Haram. There 225 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: is an Isis branch that is active in northern Nigeria. 226 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: They also are threatening and targeting Christians and churches, especially pastors. 227 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: That's one of the things we've seen, especially in the 228 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: last couple of years, the targeting of pastors and Christian leaders. 229 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: They want to take away the shepherd so that the 230 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: sheep will scatter, as the Bible says, and so we've 231 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: seen the targeting of pastors, especially in northern Nigeria. And 232 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: one of the amazing things is there are pastors who 233 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: are choosing to stay. I know one of the pastors 234 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: we work with has actually sent his wife and children 235 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: further south to a safer place, but he says, no, 236 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: God has called me here. This is where my flock is. 237 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to stay in ministry. You guys go someplace safe. 238 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: I'm going to stay here. That's the courage of our 239 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: Nigerian brothers and sisters. Yes, I know persecution is here. 240 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: Yes i know I'm in danger, but God has called 241 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: me here, so I'm going to do what He's called 242 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: me to do. 243 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: Are there any places in the world where persecution it 244 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 2: is decreasing, where the actions on the ground are getting 245 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 2: better for Christians or is it mostly just getting worse. 246 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, it's mostly getting worse. There are some places where 247 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: you look and you think, oh, is it even yes, 248 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: it's not worse than it was a year ago or 249 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: five years ago. There are very few places you could 250 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: point to where you would even could make a case 251 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: that things were better than they were five years ago 252 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: or ten years ago. 253 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: Why do you think persecuted Christians? Why do you think 254 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: the persecutor Christians sometimes leads to growth of the church, 255 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: Because we saw that, of course mentioned Perpetua earlier, church grew, 256 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: and it seems like that happens in modern day times 257 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: as well. 258 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: Why I wish I knew. I wish I had an 259 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: answer for that. You know, one of the things that 260 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: happens is the reality of the Gospel is proven in 261 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: crisis and in suffering. And I think of I think 262 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: of somebody, a lady named Pauline Iod that I met 263 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: in the Middle East. Her husband was the leader of 264 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: the Bible bookstore in Gaza. This was, you know, fifteen 265 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: years ago. He was kidnapped and murdered. And she said 266 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: she struggled to forgive the people who kidnapped and killed 267 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: her husband like she was angry at them. In fact, 268 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: she said the Muslim called a prayer five times a day. 269 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: Every time she heard that, anger would rise up in 270 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: her like, those are the people that killed my husband. 271 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: And over a course of five years, God brought her 272 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: to the point of truly forgiving the people who had 273 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: killed romy her husband. And she didn't just be quiet 274 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: about that. She actually posted on social media, you know, 275 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: I forgive them a prayer for blessing for them, a 276 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: prayer that they would know Christ. And millions of people 277 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: across the Middle East have read that social media post 278 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: and been impacted by that. So part of the way 279 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: the church grows is because you can't explain that from 280 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: a human perspective, like you can't forgive and wish blessing 281 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: for the people who killed your spouse out of our 282 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: own human power. That just doesn't that. There's no way. 283 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: The Holy Spirit must be real. God must be real 284 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: if He has empowered her to do that. And so 285 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: that's part of how the church is spreading is the 286 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: example and the witness and the forgiveness of persecuted Christians. 287 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: Even in their suffering, even in their loss, even in 288 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: their grief, even in their pain, they are willing to 289 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: love their persecutors to show Christ's love. That's part of 290 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: the reason the church is spreading in the midst of persecution. 291 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: Final question for you, possibly Todd. You've talked to many 292 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: persecuted Christian, percuted Christians nationwide and worldwide. I should say, 293 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: how does that impact you personally? Does it inspire you? 294 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: Does it motivate you to become more devoted to God? 295 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: Yes? I have been so impacted by by my time 296 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: meeting persecuted Christians and hearing their stories. And one of 297 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: my coworkers here often says, you know, when I'm with 298 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: persecuted Christians, I feel like the least spiritual person in 299 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: the room. And that is often true, and I often 300 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: pray as as I leave their presence, Lord, make me 301 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: more like that person, Make me more like them, give 302 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: me the faith that they have. I think a couple 303 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: of really practical things that I have learned from them. 304 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: One is to be a person of God's Word. I 305 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: have made a commitment to read through the Bible every year. 306 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: I have done that probably eight or nine years now. 307 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: My wife and I are now reading it together every day. 308 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: We're reading through the Bible. We want to be people 309 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: of God's Word because we've been inspired by our brothers 310 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: and sisters who memorize the scriptures. They study the scriptures 311 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes I've met Christians who prayed for five years that 312 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: they might someday own a copy of the Bible, and 313 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: I pull out my phone and I have like six 314 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: Bible apps on it, and it's like, well, what's the 315 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: good of having them in your pocket if you don't 316 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: actually read them? So that is one thing. The other 317 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: really practical thing that I have learned from persecuted Christians 318 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: or that God has taught me through their stories. My 319 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: church box or denominational box has been completely blown up 320 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: by my encounters with persecuted Christians. And I don't care 321 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: what the name on the door of your churches. If 322 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: you stand with Jesus, I want to stand by you. 323 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: And we are truly the family of God. We are 324 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: truly brothers and sisters. And that's true regardless of what 325 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: name is above the door of your church. And so 326 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: that has been a great blessing to me to be 327 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: able to draw on and be inspired by Christians from 328 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: many different denominational streams and traditions, but to know that 329 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: they are serving Jesus, and if I'm serving Jesus too, 330 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: then we're part of the same family. 331 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: Briefly tell me about Voice of the Martyrs. And what 332 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 2: it does. 333 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: Voice of the Martyrs is a ministry to persecute a Christians. 334 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: So we are serving alongside Christians in more than seventy 335 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: countries around the world, typically overseas. That falls into three categories. 336 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: One of those is persecution response. Your house gets burned down, 337 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: you need a place to stay tonight, that's persecution response. 338 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: The second one is Bibles. Just like it sounds, we 339 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: have delivered the last several years over a million Bibles 340 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: a year into hostelaries and restricted nations. The third is 341 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: what we call frontline ministry, and that is coming alongside 342 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: pastors and evangelists and church planters helping to advance the Gospel. 343 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: And then the fourth part of our ministry is just 344 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: what we're doing right now, just telling the stories of 345 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: persecuted Christians so that we can pray for them, so 346 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: that we can be inspired by them, and so that 347 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,959 Speaker 1: we can build unity in the body of Christ. 348 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 2: If you like today's episode, please subscribe and leave a 349 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 2: five star review. 350 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: That's how we help more people just like you find 351 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: the show. 352 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: A big thanks to the team at life Audio for 353 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go 354 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: to lifeaudio dot com you will find dozens of other 355 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: faith centered podcasts in their network. See you next time.