1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,120
Speaker 1: In mid hand motion.

2
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,360
Speaker 2: The phone rings, She picks it up, talks for a minute.

3
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,600
Speaker 2: She says, it's for you. I get on the phone

4
00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,080
Speaker 2: and he says, how you doing, Arman? I said, I'm horrible.

5
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,680
Speaker 2: I told him what was going on. He said, well,

6
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,960
Speaker 2: a strange thing happened to me last night. I said,

7
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,000
Speaker 2: what happened? He said, God woke me up out of

8
00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:17,880
Speaker 2: a dead sleep and told me he wants you to

9
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,200
Speaker 2: come back to this place.

10
00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:23,239
Speaker 3: Life Audio.

11
00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 4: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

12
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,200
Speaker 4: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel, and I

13
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 4: am a Christian who became.

14
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,240
Speaker 3: An alcoholic, not the other way around.

15
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,159
Speaker 4: Here we get radically vulnerable about an addiction, recovery, messy sanctification,

16
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,000
Speaker 4: and all the things we turn to instead of Jesus

17
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,479
Speaker 4: because we're all addicted to something. You'll hear raw, honest

18
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,479
Speaker 4: conversations from those who have struggled, those who help those

19
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,080
Speaker 4: who struggle, and why aiming for Jesus and getting sobriety

20
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,360
Speaker 4: thrown in is actually the best goal. So let's get

21
00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,640
Speaker 4: right into this week's episode. I had someone reach out

22
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,319
Speaker 4: to me the other day on substack and say, hey,

23
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,480
Speaker 4: I've been listening to your podcast, and you know, you

24
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,160
Speaker 4: seem to go out of your way, which is fine,

25
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,120
Speaker 4: to point out that you don't have to have a

26
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:19,959
Speaker 4: rock bottom moment in order to reevaluate your relationship with drugs, alcohol, food,

27
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 4: substance whatever. And they said, but I really need some

28
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,280
Speaker 4: stories of rock bottom moments because that's where I'm at.

29
00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,880
Speaker 4: And so I said, oh, don't you fear, And I

30
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 4: went through and I listed all the stories of rock

31
00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,600
Speaker 4: bottom moments that we've had on this podcast. But it

32
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 4: was a good reminder, right that I never want to

33
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 4: get stuck in a rut and I want to have variety.

34
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 4: And so today we are back with another rock bottom

35
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 4: story and it is unfortunately starts, like so many stories

36
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:03,280
Speaker 4: start with sexual abuse as a youngster. And so today

37
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:09,440
Speaker 4: we are talking to armand Kaimacchin and I hopefully I

38
00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,560
Speaker 4: did not butcher that because I was practicing it probably

39
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,799
Speaker 4: three or four or five times before I started doing

40
00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,799
Speaker 4: this this intro, because he explained to me how to

41
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,920
Speaker 4: say it because his last name is Armenian. He's got

42
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,360
Speaker 4: an Armenian father and an Italian mother, And as we

43
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,600
Speaker 4: joke about in the episode, you know, that led to

44
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:34,839
Speaker 4: just very calm discussions among the family joking, but he's

45
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,240
Speaker 4: going to tell his story of abuse that started when

46
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,200
Speaker 4: he was ten, how that led to abuse of substances,

47
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,880
Speaker 4: and how that led him to a rock bottom moment

48
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 4: where he was in a psych word and just wanting

49
00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,520
Speaker 4: to die, and how the Lord met him through the

50
00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,440
Speaker 4: beauty of Psalm eighty eight. And I'm actually really because

51
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,800
Speaker 4: we're going to read this psalm a little bit, not

52
00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,919
Speaker 4: the whole thing, but a little later in the episode.

53
00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,400
Speaker 4: And I think I love what Armand points out that

54
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,639
Speaker 4: this is a psalm of lament that doesn't actually end

55
00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 4: or turn back in a sense to the Lord. A

56
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:22,200
Speaker 4: lot of laments and a lot of psalms that may

57
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,639
Speaker 4: start dark then end light. And what we see in

58
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,359
Speaker 4: this psalm, which is eighteen verses long, it ends with this,

59
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,400
Speaker 4: you have taken away my companions and loved ones. Darkness

60
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,840
Speaker 4: is my closest friend. And if you're listening to this

61
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,480
Speaker 4: and darkness seems like your closest friend, boy, I think

62
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 4: you are going to really enjoy and get life from

63
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 4: this episode and conversation with Armand. He is a regular dude,

64
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,320
Speaker 4: like a regular joe, like he works construction in New Jersey,

65
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 4: he's written a book which we'll talk about and which

66
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,040
Speaker 4: I'm holding up now if you're watching this called he

67
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 4: calls Me Redeemed, which is a reminder that you can

68
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,240
Speaker 4: go to the Veritas Daily and paying subscribers can watch

69
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,520
Speaker 4: every single one of these episodes, and I think this

70
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 4: might be a good one to watch. You can sign

71
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:16,720
Speaker 4: up for a fourteen day trial if you just want

72
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,120
Speaker 4: to try it out. Oh that's fine, but you can

73
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,760
Speaker 4: go to the Veritas Daily and watch this episode. But

74
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,400
Speaker 4: Arman is just a regular guy and he's written a

75
00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 4: book about his experience. And I love the way that

76
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:34,160
Speaker 4: this book unfolds because instead of chapters, he talks about rooms.

77
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,919
Speaker 4: He grew up where his dad owned a hotel, and

78
00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 4: so he talks about the different rooms of his life.

79
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 4: And I think it's a beautiful way to describe and

80
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,159
Speaker 4: talk about what happened to him and how God met

81
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 4: him in the depths of his own Psalm eighty eight,

82
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 4: where darkness was his closest friend. Before we get there,

83
00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,880
Speaker 4: just a reminder that we have started a ministry called

84
00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,599
Speaker 4: Veritas Recovery. And so I say, especially, but not exclusively,

85
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,159
Speaker 4: for those people who know Jesus love Jesus, profess Jesus,

86
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,840
Speaker 4: want Jesus, and yet struggle with doing the things they

87
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,039
Speaker 4: don't want to do. And so what we do, among

88
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,560
Speaker 4: other things, is create top level resources for people who

89
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,239
Speaker 4: want an element of gospel centered recovery in their life

90
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,640
Speaker 4: and either they don't have access to it or they're

91
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 4: too a shame to even go to the church and

92
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 4: start asking for help. And I know that shame all

93
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,560
Speaker 4: too well, and so I would love for you if

94
00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,919
Speaker 4: you are struggling, to go to Veritasrecovery dot org and

95
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 4: there you can find resources which we are continuing to

96
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,599
Speaker 4: build out like we are in our infancy, and so

97
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,960
Speaker 4: you know you will find some resources there, but know

98
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,359
Speaker 4: that it's just only growing. And if you feel it

99
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,640
Speaker 4: to help us reach even more people like you and me,

100
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 4: please consider giving donation. Literally five dollars helps, it really does,

101
00:05:54,560 --> 00:06:00,679
Speaker 4: so check it out Veritasrecovery dot org. So with all said,

102
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:06,279
Speaker 4: let's talk to Armand Kaimacchin about his story. He says,

103
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,920
Speaker 4: it's a memoir of childhood sex abuse, heroin addiction, hope

104
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:17,440
Speaker 4: and redemption. Armand thank you so much for joining the

105
00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,599
Speaker 4: Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast. I didn't you know,

106
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 4: and I say this, I like to point this out

107
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,960
Speaker 4: when this happens. But you are someone who, you know,

108
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,960
Speaker 4: I think started following me on Instagram or saw some stuff,

109
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,359
Speaker 4: and you reached out to me and said, hey, I

110
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 4: have a story, and here we are talking. And so

111
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 4: I always encourage people to do that because you know,

112
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,480
Speaker 4: I think there's so many of me and you out

113
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,800
Speaker 4: there who have been radically changed by Jesus.

114
00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,120
Speaker 3: And so thank you for doing that. And I'm so

115
00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 3: glad to be talking with you.

116
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Bud the Well, it's my pleasure to be on

117
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,800
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for the opportunity. And yeah, I think

118
00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,479
Speaker 2: the first time I heard you, I was I was

119
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 2: listening to Billy Hollowell. Maybe he spoke about you, or

120
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 2: maybe he shared the book, whatever it was, I think

121
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,960
Speaker 2: I saw your book through him in some way. And

122
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,680
Speaker 2: then UH thought, man, I got to reach out to

123
00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,440
Speaker 2: this guy because it's such an awesome testimony. And so

124
00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:14,200
Speaker 2: here we are.

125
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 4: And and and by the way, and I think you

126
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,760
Speaker 4: were in a good way. I think like it took

127
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,160
Speaker 4: like one or two times. I think I was like okay, yeah,

128
00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 4: and then you reminded me, and so please do that

129
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 4: people if you you know, you know, there's so much

130
00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,520
Speaker 4: going on, especially was now starting this nonprofit ministry that

131
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:34,800
Speaker 4: you know, if I, if I don't get back to

132
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 4: you right away, bug me, you have you have permission

133
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:37,440
Speaker 4: to bug me.

134
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:38,040
Speaker 1: And Billy.

135
00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was interesting because then Billy I saw Billy

136
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,320
Speaker 4: talking about you, and I was like, I was like,

137
00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 4: you know, normally you would say, oh, if Billy is

138
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 4: cool with him, well then he's really cool. But you know,

139
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,280
Speaker 4: knowing that you were Billy approved, man, that was a

140
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,840
Speaker 4: that was against you.

141
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:53,240
Speaker 2: Almost.

142
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, Billy and I have great friends. Billy. People might

143
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,080
Speaker 4: know from the CB and Christian Broadcasting Network. Kim and

144
00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,320
Speaker 4: I go back years and years and years and so

145
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,560
Speaker 4: love that. So arman, tell us a little bit about

146
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 4: yourself before we get into this into your story. You know,

147
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:14,960
Speaker 4: don't get into the story yet. But what do you

148
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:16,080
Speaker 4: do now?

149
00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:16,920
Speaker 3: Where do you live?

150
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:18,800
Speaker 1: That kind of sure? Yeah?

151
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,120
Speaker 2: So born and raised in New Jersey, Asbury Park, New Jersey,

152
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,000
Speaker 2: Long Branch, New Jersey, which are towns that are pretty

153
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,600
Speaker 2: close to each other here shore towns. I'm forty two.

154
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 2: I have I've been married for ten years to my

155
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,480
Speaker 2: beautiful wife Nicole. I have three children, nine seven and

156
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,720
Speaker 2: three or two. Excuse me, all boys. So it's wild

157
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,560
Speaker 2: over here. We've got a lot of action going on.

158
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,160
Speaker 2: But it's awesome, man. And yeah, I for my day job,

159
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 2: I work heavy construction with the Laborers Union here in Jersey,

160
00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,079
Speaker 2: so we do underground gas lines and that's been a

161
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,160
Speaker 2: gig I've been doing for about thirteen fourteen years.

162
00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,319
Speaker 1: And you know, passionate writer.

163
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 2: Storyteller, author, speaker, poet, you know, so wearing a few

164
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: different hats, but I'm enjoying every one of them.

165
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,680
Speaker 3: Awesome. I love that. I love that.

166
00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:17,199
Speaker 4: And so you have written a book called and I'll

167
00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 4: hold this up if you're watching this just a reminder

168
00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,400
Speaker 4: you can watch every single one of these podcasts at

169
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,840
Speaker 4: the Veritasdaily dot com. And so you have this book

170
00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,320
Speaker 4: called he Calls Me Redeemed. I'm holding it up there,

171
00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 4: and it says a memoir of childhood sex abuse, heroin, addiction,

172
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,520
Speaker 4: hope and redemption. And so I mean even that subtitle, man,

173
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,600
Speaker 4: that's heavy stuff, right, And so you have that story

174
00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,040
Speaker 4: to tell and so like I like, I like I say,

175
00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:46,120
Speaker 4: and like listeners know.

176
00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:48,600
Speaker 3: I'd like you to just tell your story.

177
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 4: And we Chase Rabbits on on where it goes, and

178
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,880
Speaker 4: so arman, tell us about your story of child, childhood,

179
00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 4: sex abuse, heroin, addiction, hope and redemption.

180
00:09:59,080 --> 00:09:59,839
Speaker 3: Where does it start?

181
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, So well, I'll start by telling you how

182
00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:05,920
Speaker 2: the book came about, and then I'll go back in

183
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 2: time and I'll tell you a little bit about how

184
00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,960
Speaker 2: it all came to be. So I'm sitting on a

185
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 2: train coming back from Brooklyn and I read in your

186
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 2: story you lived in Brooklyn for a while. I was

187
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,800
Speaker 2: in downtown Clinton Hill Salvation Army, so I was. I

188
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 2: was being asked by my probation officer to come back

189
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:25,040
Speaker 2: to Jersey.

190
00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,400
Speaker 1: I had been ducking her for a while.

191
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,200
Speaker 2: And I'm on this train back to Jersey and you know,

192
00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,680
Speaker 2: I had no money, no prospects. I owed every township money.

193
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,280
Speaker 2: I had open core cases everywhere, problems in the street,

194
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,960
Speaker 2: problems with law enforcement, no stable place to live. So

195
00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,120
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there on the train and I'm sober, and

196
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 2: you know, I've been saved by grace through faith in

197
00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,560
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. He had, you know, delivered me from this

198
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 2: some insane heroin addiction. But I'm on this train and

199
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 2: I'm like, what am I gonna do? Now with my life,

200
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,320
Speaker 2: you know, coming back to Jersey. So I wrote this

201
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,000
Speaker 2: list down and the list was like very simple. It

202
00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 2: was like, get a job, find a place to live,

203
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 2: you know, get a car, close my open core cases,

204
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 2: finish probation. I wrote, meet a wife, and have children.

205
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,360
Speaker 2: I put that all in one line, which I would

206
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:15,640
Speaker 2: have split it up if I would have known.

207
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 1: You know, it was a lit yeah yeah right.

208
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,440
Speaker 2: So but at the very bottom of this list, and

209
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 2: it was like, again, it's a simple list. I it's

210
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,720
Speaker 2: like God spoke to me and I wrote, write a

211
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,079
Speaker 2: book about how Jesus Christ saved my life.

212
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 1: And at that time it seems such an impossibility.

213
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,679
Speaker 2: I almost didn't want to write it because it seems

214
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,880
Speaker 2: so stupid, like look where I'm at, Like what are

215
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 2: you even talking about? But I wrote it down and

216
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,240
Speaker 2: I sat with that I and I prayed and waited

217
00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:42,680
Speaker 2: on the Lord.

218
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 1: And fifteen years later it finally came to fruition.

219
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,720
Speaker 2: And you know, the reason that I that I knew

220
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 2: I needed to write the book was I'll go back

221
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,440
Speaker 2: now and tell you how it all started.

222
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 1: And I knew that my story had the uh the

223
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 1: ability to to really.

224
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,280
Speaker 2: To radically transform other people's lives as well, and so

225
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 2: I wanted to I wanted to share it.

226
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 1: I felt like it was almost my responsibility to share it.

227
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 2: Yes, but you know, I grew up, like I said,

228
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,440
Speaker 2: between Asbury Park and Long Branch. My parents were split

229
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,199
Speaker 2: up when I was very young. So my dad's side

230
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,840
Speaker 2: is Armenian and my mother's side is Italian. It's a

231
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,400
Speaker 2: cool combination. A lot of good food on both sides

232
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:26,640
Speaker 2: and really passionate people.

233
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,080
Speaker 4: I was gonna say, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure

234
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 4: disagreements are very calm, very oh.

235
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and very few and far between two. I mean,

236
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, very rare, you know.

237
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,840
Speaker 2: But well, so my father's side, they owned an Armenian

238
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,679
Speaker 2: restaurant and hotel in Asbury Park which was called the

239
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,720
Speaker 2: Armenian Royal Hotel and it was like full dining room

240
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 2: with belly dancers and the whole thing. It was a

241
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,559
Speaker 2: really cool place to grow up. It was a very

242
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,560
Speaker 2: interesting place to grow up. Summers were crazy there. It

243
00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,400
Speaker 2: was just it was awesome. Everybody was there, my grandfather,

244
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 2: this huge family. It was like my big fact Greek

245
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,200
Speaker 2: wedding but you know, Armenian style. Yeah, and this very

246
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 2: interesting place. As a matter of fact, in the book,

247
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,320
Speaker 2: I structured the book into rooms rather than chapters, with

248
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 2: the idea of walking the reader through these rooms of

249
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,840
Speaker 2: my memory, and that comes from the hotel. So the

250
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,439
Speaker 2: idea is, you know, it's played off of these rooms

251
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,600
Speaker 2: at the hotel. So, you know, I had a pretty

252
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,200
Speaker 2: normal childhood aside from you know, some of what I said,

253
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,080
Speaker 2: interesting place to grow up, but you know, besides that,

254
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,479
Speaker 2: it was it was a pretty normal childhood.

255
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:33,120
Speaker 1: You know.

256
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,199
Speaker 2: I remember so many great memories of being on the shore,

257
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,960
Speaker 2: Jersey shore summertime, you know, going to the beach and

258
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,320
Speaker 2: you know, going for pizza and going to all these

259
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,000
Speaker 2: different events and festivals and things that were going on.

260
00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,359
Speaker 2: And just had a great childhood, you know, ten years old,

261
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,840
Speaker 2: the sexual abuse started. When the sexual abuse began, it

262
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,680
Speaker 2: just completely derailed my entire life.

263
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,800
Speaker 1: Is it was very abrupt.

264
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 2: There was no warning, There was no there was no

265
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 2: real grooming process that I can remember.

266
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:08,280
Speaker 1: Uh.

267
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 2: The person responsible just saw an opportunity, took it, and

268
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,080
Speaker 2: then from there it extended out a few years.

269
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,240
Speaker 1: But I could talk a little bit more, you know.

270
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,000
Speaker 4: Which by the way, you know, I was I was

271
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,000
Speaker 4: talking with our recovery pastor at church.

272
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,080
Speaker 3: I don't know. I guess this was just last week.

273
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,240
Speaker 4: And I think what people don't realize and and and

274
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,040
Speaker 4: maybe you know, we talk a lot about it on

275
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,320
Speaker 4: this podcast because it is a through line, right I

276
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,400
Speaker 4: I was molested as a as a.

277
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 3: As a boy.

278
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,320
Speaker 4: Is that is that a lot of people don't realize

279
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 4: how prevalent that sexual abuse and molestation of boys and

280
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 4: young men is, right, I mean, it seems in a

281
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 4: sense it we're able to make sense of it, not

282
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,640
Speaker 4: in a good way, but for younger for young girls,

283
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 4: but but for young boys. It's a it's just harder

284
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 4: for us to wrap our minds around. And yet it

285
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 4: is so prevalent. And I mean, I can't tell you

286
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,640
Speaker 4: how many people that have been on this podcast that

287
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 4: are men. We're almost almost universally Armand it goes, there

288
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,560
Speaker 4: is a child sexual abuse that happened, and so that's

289
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 4: your storage It was it a friend, a loved one

290
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:14,120
Speaker 4: of family?

291
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll just be honest. I changed names and

292
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,920
Speaker 2: things in the book for a lot of reasons. But

293
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you know, if you

294
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 2: read the book, I talk about a really a best

295
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,920
Speaker 2: friend of my mother and her husband. At the time.

296
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 2: I think it was. I don't think they were married

297
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 2: at this time. They got married later on, because I

298
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 2: remember being at the wedding and whatnot. But uh, you

299
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,800
Speaker 2: know it was it was this guy and very close

300
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 2: to the family, most trust, you know, mostly trusted, I

301
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 2: would say, And you know, ten years old. I remember

302
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 2: it was my tenth birthday. I believe he gave me.

303
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 2: He got me tickets to go see a concert. It

304
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 2: was Marilyn Manson, it was Corn and it was Danzig

305
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,160
Speaker 2: and they were all playing at count Basi Theater and

306
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 2: Red Bank, which is not far from where I live here.

307
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,920
Speaker 2: And there's a first concert I had ever been to.

308
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 2: I guess it was kind of like a you know,

309
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 2: birthday gift, and we went to. I wasn't really even

310
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 2: into that kind of music necessarily, just you know, it

311
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 2: was like, okay, you're ten, I got you, got you

312
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,720
Speaker 2: these tickets. And he was very much into heavy metal

313
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,480
Speaker 2: and and kind of goth and all those those types

314
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,680
Speaker 2: of things. So I went to the concert, young guy,

315
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,720
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm looking at all these things I

316
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,600
Speaker 2: never seen before, and people are dressed crazy, and you

317
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 2: got piercings everywhere, and people are smoking pot and there's light,

318
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,680
Speaker 2: you know, lights and all the the action going on,

319
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,640
Speaker 2: and it was it was experience I never I never

320
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 2: had before, you know. So, uh, it was a late night,

321
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,800
Speaker 2: so I ended up going back to their place to

322
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 2: stay for the night, and my mother's friend had left

323
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 2: in the morning, I think, to get eggs or milk

324
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 2: or whatever, and during that time he was alone with

325
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 2: me there, and you know, I.

326
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 1: I in the book.

327
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 2: It's it's interesting, John, because as a Christian, I wanted

328
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 2: this book to to be able to be on church

329
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 2: bookstore shelves, and I wanted it to be able to

330
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,639
Speaker 2: bless like, you know, teenagers and people that may be

331
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 2: blessed by it. But I needed to be very tactful

332
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 2: in the way that I did this because of the

333
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,520
Speaker 2: subject matter. You know, there's no profanity in the book purposefully,

334
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:21,880
Speaker 2: and that was a very you know, I think it's

335
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 2: creatively a difficult thing to do because probably sixty seventy

336
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 2: percent of the vocabulary was profanity. So for me to

337
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,280
Speaker 2: you know, try to figure out a way to convey

338
00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 2: this whole story without you know, using a curse word

339
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 2: was interesting. But I think, I think, I think I

340
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,160
Speaker 2: did it a good job. Hopefully but this subject matter,

341
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 2: the sexual abuse part, I'm thinking to myself, like, how

342
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,159
Speaker 2: do you convey this without getting too graphic and without

343
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:49,640
Speaker 2: you know, being distasteful.

344
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,320
Speaker 1: So what I did was, I said.

345
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,359
Speaker 2: You know what, I'm just gonna I'm just going to

346
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,760
Speaker 2: vividly write about the first encounter, and then I'm going

347
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 2: to tell you how many years this happened after and

348
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,240
Speaker 2: people could draw their own conclusions.

349
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 1: So that's what I did.

350
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 2: But you know, we were in the same bed, and

351
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,159
Speaker 2: you know, the abuse just just started very abruptly, like

352
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,000
Speaker 2: I said, and I was I was totally frozen, couldn't

353
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 2: literally quite literally physically couldn't move.

354
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,439
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do, where to go, what

355
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 1: to say.

356
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 2: I just stayed still, and I stayed quiet and just

357
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 2: closed my eyes and just you know, wished and with

358
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 2: everything I had, that I would be out of that situation.

359
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

360
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 2: When she came back, it was like a hostage situation almost.

361
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 2: I you know, somebody asked me recently I did another

362
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 2: podcast and he said, did he do anything to keep

363
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,600
Speaker 2: you quiet? Or And I said, to be honest with you,

364
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 2: young you know, I was ten years old and came

365
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,239
Speaker 2: from a family where you wouldn't have had to do

366
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,240
Speaker 2: anything to keep that quiet in me. I was never

367
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,919
Speaker 2: telling anybody that that that took place, so that I was,

368
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,880
Speaker 2: you know, in any way a part of anything like that.

369
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 2: So you know, yeah, that's that's how it went down.

370
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 3: And so okay, so ten years old, you know, was

371
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 3: it an ongoing thing for you?

372
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that went on about two two and a half

373
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 2: years of two or two and a half years. You

374
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 2: don't have an exact time, but about that, about that timeline.

375
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 4: And so first of all, I'm so sorry. I mean,

376
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 4: you know, it's just this this broken, fallen, sinful world.

377
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,200
Speaker 4: Like I said, it's it's it's the story of too

378
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 4: many of us, and you know we can't then you know,

379
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 4: our literally our brains were not fully formed.

380
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 3: So how do you make sense and meaning out of this?

381
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: Oh?

382
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And so I'm curious. Then you know, you

383
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,639
Speaker 3: take that and then how does that play into the

384
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 3: rest of your story? And where do you go from there?

385
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this, sure. Yeah.

386
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 2: So well, I think the umber one thing you do

387
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 2: in that type of situation when you are ten and

388
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 2: you can't make sense of it and you're not going

389
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 2: to tell anybody and you're going to internalize this thing,

390
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 2: is that you bury it as far down as you

391
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 2: can bury it. You try to just pretend like it's

392
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 2: not happening, you know, then it becomes normal. If the

393
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 2: abuse goes on for quite a long time, then you

394
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,719
Speaker 2: normalize it for those times that you're in it, and

395
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 2: then you just try to run from it, you know,

396
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 2: the rest of the time. But I think, you know,

397
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,919
Speaker 2: what happened with me first was I started to eat

398
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,439
Speaker 2: a lot, you know, I started to I started to

399
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,920
Speaker 2: binge eat to comfort myself from what was going on

400
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 2: because at that age ten years old, I didn't have

401
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 2: access to drugs yet or you know, didn't didn't even

402
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 2: think about taking drugs. So, you know, for a couple

403
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,959
Speaker 2: of years, I gained a lot of weight very quickly.

404
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,679
Speaker 2: And I think people understood that, like there's a reason

405
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 2: why he's gaining so much weight and he's eating so much.

406
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,399
Speaker 2: But I don't think they obviously they didn't know what

407
00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 2: it was. When I was about I would say, twelve

408
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 2: and a half thirteen years, I mean, somewhere around there,

409
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 2: this person responsible for the abuse, you know, used a

410
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 2: lot of drugs and gave me pot for the first time.

411
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 2: So I started smoking pot at twelve years old or so,

412
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, instantly fell in love with that.

413
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 1: And as I'm going into my high school years.

414
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 4: Are you by the way, when you say you instantly

415
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 4: fell in love with it? Did you fall and fall

416
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 4: in love with it for what reasons? In the sense

417
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,479
Speaker 4: of like did it help you escape? Was it just hey,

418
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 4: I like this feeling. What was it for you, U

419
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 4: that made you instantly fall in love?

420
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: I think that I was so anxious at that age

421
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 2: because of what was going on that I think it

422
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 2: just immediately put me at ease, you know, like, Okay,

423
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 2: this is a you know, kind of a tranquil calm,

424
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 2: you know what it is?

425
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 1: John?

426
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 2: And I think this is a lot of addicts. I

427
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 2: think we're all looking for the peace of Christ, but

428
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 2: we don't realize it, you know what I'm saying.

429
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,120
Speaker 1: So people are people are.

430
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: Getting little doses of counterfeit piece here and there. And

431
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 2: I think a lot of heroin aduts, for example, that

432
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 2: I've talked to, their life is just utter chaos and

433
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: they just want peace. You know.

434
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 1: As I talked to him, I realized, like that's what

435
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: it is.

436
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 2: It's like you're just longing for peace and not finding

437
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 2: it except for this short little intervals of peace that

438
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 2: you get with with using. So you know, so yeah,

439
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 2: I just uh, I started smoking pod and you know,

440
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: high school years chip on my shoulder, you know, in

441
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: my mind, I'm a tough guy. Now I want to

442
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 2: be I want to be a street guy, you know,

443
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 2: I want to be a drug dealer.

444
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 1: I want to run around and hustle, and so.

445
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 4: I start getting in is some of that is some

446
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 4: of that a reaction reaction to, like, I don't I

447
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 4: need to become the person that can't be taken advantage of.

448
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,400
Speaker 2: Five thousand percent, I think so, I mean, looking back

449
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,479
Speaker 2: back now in retrospect, I think part of it too was,

450
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 2: you know, the neighborhood I was, you know in at

451
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 2: that time my father, like I said, the hotel and

452
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 2: and where he lived in Asbury Park. It was a

453
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 2: very drug you know, flooded community. There's drugs everywhere, low

454
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 2: income housing and whatever. And so a lot of the

455
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 2: people that I got close with, you know, they're either

456
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: back and forth to New York, you know, bringing drugs

457
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 2: back and forth, and they're they're selling narcotics and they're

458
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: making money, and you know, and I see this and

459
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 2: I'm I'm this, you know, younger white guy. My mother

460
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 2: lives in a middle class town. My father lives in

461
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: in you know, a little bit more of a rough

462
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 2: neighborhood and very rough at that time. And so I

463
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 2: was a perfect conduit, you know what I mean, because

464
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 2: I could take the drugs from the hood and bring

465
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 2: them into a more middle class community. So it was

466
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 2: like the perfect the perfect storm, you know. And the

467
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 2: more enveloped I got in that life. It went from

468
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,959
Speaker 2: pot to cocaine and crack and angel dust and you know,

469
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 2: PCP and other words and LSD and basically anything that

470
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: I could sell I was selling on the street and

471
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: getting more averse to that, you know, more accustomed to

472
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: that life.

473
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 3: So that's all throughout kind of high school.

474
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 4: And so you are now, you know at the point

475
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 4: where I mean, are you you're using Is it recreational?

476
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 4: Like when does the switch kind of flip where you

477
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 4: feel like it becomes more than just recreational.

478
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So you know, I'm thinking freshman year, sophomore year,

479
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 2: I'm just dappling parties. I'm selling a pot and I'm

480
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 2: selling some you know, some narcotics. But I'm not full

481
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: in yet because I'm still in high school. So it

482
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 2: really wasn't until I moved out of my mother's house,

483
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: dropped out of high school, got my own place that

484
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: I'm like, full on, this is what I do, so

485
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: I am completely. So high school was more like probably

486
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: a lot of high school kids experience, you know, parties

487
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: and drinking and smoking pod and you know.

488
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: Where I'm from, Asbury Park.

489
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of the people that I was

490
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: dealing with there if they would have known that there.

491
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: I'll say it this way.

492
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: If there's certain drugs that you do that are okay

493
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: to do, and then there's certain drugs that you do

494
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: that are off limits, and if you do them, nobody's

495
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: going to do business with you. So cocaine would be one,

496
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: crack will be another one, Heroin will be one because

497
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 2: people know they can't trust you at that point, you know.

498
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: So all those things I pretty much stayed away from

499
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 2: for the most part. I can remember we used to

500
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: sprinkle some crack in pot and smoke it, you know,

501
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: in high school, maybe we did some things like that LSD.

502
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: I know we did quite a few times. Mushrooms.

503
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 2: We used to do all that kind of stuff, but

504
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 2: as far as narcotics, we're concerned like heroin, cocaine, and

505
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: like a really regular use of those things.

506
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: I stayed away from until late a little bit later on.

507
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 3: Okay, and so what does later on? When does later

508
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 3: on come?

509
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: And what does Yeah, so I dropped out of high

510
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 2: school the end of my junior year. I'm dating this

511
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: girl at the time. We go through high school together.

512
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: She dropped out. I dropped out, and we get this

513
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: apartment in Neptune, which is right next to Asbury Park,

514
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: where I'm talking about rough neighborhood. Perfect opportunity for me

515
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: to do what I'm doing. And I set up shop

516
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 2: and I, you know, I I'm selling drugs for a

517
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: few years, from say eighteen to twenty twenty one. I'm

518
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: the only guy that you know that age with my

519
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: own apartment.

520
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: So I'm you know, there's parties and there's things like

521
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: that going on there.

522
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: But at that time is when I really said, Okay,

523
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 2: I'm selling narcotics to live.

524
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: This is what I do for a living. This is

525
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 1: how I pay my bills.

526
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 2: I'm out of my parents as I'm you know, I'm

527
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: on my own kind of thing. And now I start

528
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: dabbling a little bit more. You know, ecstasy became a

529
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: huge problem back then. It was extremely popular. It was

530
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: everybody was taking ecstasy in the you know, early two thousands,

531
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: and there was a huge market for it. And I

532
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 2: had a lot of ecstasy all the time. And I

533
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: was taking sometimes six eight pills a day. You know,

534
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: I can remember, Oh yeah, I was. I was waking

535
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 2: up in the morning. I'll never forget this. Some of

536
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 2: my buddies were you know, in high school, you got

537
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: like four or five friends. They're like brothers, you know,

538
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: you guys are always together, and they would come there.

539
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: One morning, they came to pick me up to go

540
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: to home depot for something. I don't remember what it was.

541
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: And I said, okay, give me a minute. I rolled

542
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 2: the blunt and I popped two E pills and they're like, bro,

543
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: it's like nine o'clock in the morning, you know what

544
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: I mean, Like, what are you doing? And I just,

545
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I just assumed like they're not living my

546
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 2: you know, they weren't doing the things I was doing

547
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: as far as dealing and things like you guys just

548
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: don't get it, you know what I mean, not realizing

549
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: like no, this is a major problem. This is beyond

550
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: recreation like you're talking about John, This is something else.

551
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: And from the ecstasy, you know, cocaine, and then from

552
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: the cocaine became heroin. And then when when I got

553
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: a hold of heroin, I you know, for the most

554
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: part of my twenties, I stayed away from heroin because

555
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: I saw what it did to people in the street,

556
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: and I was always petrified by I mean, you know,

557
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 2: the begging and the crying that I saw in that,

558
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: you know, the dope sickness. And because I'm in you know,

559
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: I mean, we're going into crackhouses and shooting galleries and

560
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: in the hood and I'm seeing I'm seeing stuff that

561
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 2: just you know, would keep anybody away from it. So

562
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 2: I stayed away from it for the for the most

563
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: part of my twenties. When I first started to sniffle

564
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: a little bit of dope, I immediately fell like that

565
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: that was the drug that was I don't want to

566
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: you know, this is it, This is it for me.

567
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 2: This is like everything you know that I'd ever been

568
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: looking for. It's that kind of thing, you know. And

569
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: then I went from snorting heroin to smoking heroin, which

570
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: ups in an ante because it's it's more direct, and

571
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: it's it's a quicker high, and it's a more intense high.

572
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 2: And then a girl that I was seeing at that

573
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: time introduced me to shooting Heroin and when I started

574
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: shooting Heroin. By the way, I just say this John

575
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: before continue, just so people understand and the listeners know.

576
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: I'm not proud of any of the things that I'm

577
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: that I'm saying here on this podcast. I look back

578
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: at it in retrospect and it was, I mean totally

579
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: tannic and demonic the things that were going on in

580
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: my life and that whole world. And the only reason

581
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: I share all of it is number one, Like your

582
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: book talks about radical vulnerability, I think is very important.

583
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: But I want people to understand the depth of depravity,

584
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: the place that God took me out of and where

585
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: he's placed me.

586
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah it took me, yes, yeah, yeah.

587
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 4: You can't really appreciate where God has brought someone unless

588
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 4: you realize where they were. And that's what I say too, right,

589
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 4: one hundred percent. So yeah, dude, I totally get it

590
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 4: that what you're saying is not a if. It's a boast,

591
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 4: it's a boast in your weaknesses, right, it's a look

592
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 4: at how awful I was. But anyway, so you said

593
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 4: you were introduced to shooting heroin.

594
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Once I started shooting heroin, you know again

595
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: just going, I would not be here right now telling

596
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: this story if it were not for the grace of

597
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: our Lord Jesus. I mean, it's incredible how many times

598
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: he saved my life. But I start shooting Heroin and

599
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 2: then everything falls apart very quickly. I lose everything. I'm

600
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: in and out of detoxes, rehabs, you know, locked up

601
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: a few times just for short little couple of days here,

602
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: a couple of days there, kind of thing. Like I said,

603
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: a lot of problems with people on the street because

604
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: at that time I'm desperate. You know, every second of

605
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: my day is geared toward finding a way to get high.

606
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: So if that means I got to.

607
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: Steal from a drug dealer on the street to do it,

608
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: then that's what I'm gonna do. If it means robbing

609
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: family members, if it means, you know, whatever whatever it

610
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: calls for, that's what's gonna happen in order for me

611
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 2: to get that drug. So it took me a lot

612
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: of places I wish I'd never gone it. It forced

613
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: me to do a lot of things. I shouldn't say

614
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: it forced.

615
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: Me, but it it.

616
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: It caused me to do a lot of things that

617
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: I'm not proud that I did. But at the end

618
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: of the day, it became it enveloped my entire life.

619
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: It just engulfed me. And every morning that I woke up,

620
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: I was suicidal as soon as I woke up because

621
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: I knew what the day they meant for me. I

622
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: was gonna have to find rides here or there. I

623
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: was gonna have to rob people. I was goot to

624
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: steal things. I was gonna have to, you know, maneuver

625
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: all these different things, whether it was stealing jewelry, pawning it,

626
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: you know, all these different things that people do to

627
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: get heroin. I knew I was gonna have to do

628
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: and I was just so exhausted, bro, I mean, I

629
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 2: was so exhausted of this life that I was living.

630
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: And like I said, I was, you know a lot

631
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: of suicidal ideation at that time.

632
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: I just wanted it. I just wanted it to be over.

633
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: And you know, I'd gone through so much pain for

634
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: so long, and the internalization of the childhood sexual abuse,

635
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: and like you said, there are so many I need

636
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: so many too, John that I talked to, and I'm like,

637
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: I can't believe how prevalent, Like you said, this is

638
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: a lot of men don't feel comfortable talking about it.

639
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: A lot of men definitely don't write a book about it.

640
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: And so, you know, I think that men don't like

641
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: to be vulnerable. Of course, it's you know, we don't

642
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: want to It's looked at as like a weakness. So

643
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: nobody wants to talk about these things. I think that's

644
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: why we don't hear it as much as as we

645
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: would otherwise. But anyway, I say that to say that

646
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: when you internalize something like that as a child, you

647
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: have that kind of trauma and you don't speak about

648
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: it and you don't deal with it.

649
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: It's like a perfect storm for just a life of chaos.

650
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: And I think it's you know, a lot of common

651
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: denominators that we see in all these different stories. The

652
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: drug abuse, of the alcoholism and everything else is all

653
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: very prevalent in in that kind of a story. So anyway,

654
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: I'm at this point just you know, completely miserable, at

655
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: my absolute lowest, suicidal, and.

656
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 4: What's your relationship, like at this point with your family,

657
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 4: I mean, are you strange from them? Are you still

658
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 4: engaged with them? What does that look like?

659
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: So I'm glad you asked that my people are sick

660
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: of me at this point. I mean, nobody wants me

661
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: around my father. You know, he's on the back cover.

662
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: I don't know if you noticed, but that the man

663
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: sitting with me is my father.

664
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: It is.

665
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 3: I hold it up again for people who watching.

666
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he you know, he was just my best

667
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: friend in the world. We were so close. I worked

668
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: with him, you know, but we did a lot of

669
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: drugs together. We you know, we we we lived the

670
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: crazy life together, me and my father. And it's complicated

671
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: because you know, I talk to people and they're like, man,

672
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: that's terrible. He must have been a horrible father. And

673
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, he was the best spoker ever me. He

674
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: was just there was so much good and you know,

675
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 2: obviously I didn't start getting high with him ttil later

676
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: on in life. And just when you know, I was

677
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: telling somebody recently as a writer, you know this, like

678
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: you know, we know from reading our Bible, right, If

679
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: you just take a sentence out of the Bible and

680
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: you read it, it could mean anything. Yeah, but you look,

681
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: you look backwards a paragraph, and you look forwards a

682
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: paragraph or a couple of pages, and you start to

683
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: get a full context, in a full picture. And I

684
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: think with my father, I think that's kind of hopefully.

685
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: What I did in the book was was I tried

686
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: to give people a paragraph before in a paragraph after

687
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: so that they could kind of understand why me and

688
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: him were so close and why.

689
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: Why I loved him so much still love me. So

690
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: he's gone for a couple of years now.

691
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: But anyway, even he at this time doesn't want me

692
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: around anymore. He's like, he's like, I just I'm stealing

693
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: everything from anyone. Whatever is not tied down in some

694
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: things that are are are going to be gone. I'm

695
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 2: stealing everything. So, you know, a lot of people didn't

696
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: want me around.

697
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: My mother.

698
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: You know, your mother's your mother. So she's she's the

699
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: only one who who's still.

700
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: Tried.

701
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: I think everything she could with what she had to

702
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: to try to get me into rehabs and try to

703
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: get me clean. But there was a lot of Look,

704
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: when people are uneducated, they there's a lot of enabling

705
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: and you know, all kinds of things.

706
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: And I was so manipulative that.

707
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: Just to give you an example, like I remember one

708
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: day she's telling me she brought me.

709
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: Into a funeral parlor.

710
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: We got a funeral parlor over here called Domiano's where

711
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: a lot of people in my family.

712
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 4: You know that does not sound like an Italian funeral home.

713
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 3: I have no idea. What like that seems like straight

714
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 3: out of the Sopranos.

715
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I wrote, I wrote about it in the

716
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 1: in in the book.

717
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: But she brought me in there and she wanted me

718
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: to look around and pick out my casket. So she,

719
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: you know, she thought this was a really clever thing

720
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 2: to do. I guess, you know. She said, I'm gonna look.

721
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 2: You know, my heart was dead at that time.

722
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: I'm not.

723
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 2: I'm a shell of a person. You know, my eyes

724
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: are dead, my heart is dead. So she brought me

725
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 2: in there thinking and by the way, I'm I'm around

726
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, horrible things going on. So

727
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: I was really callous at that time, and she brought

728
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: me in there. Pick out your casket. She's crying. I

729
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 2: want you to, you know, pick at least pick the

730
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 2: one you want, because I know it's not gonna be

731
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: long kind of thing, hoping that it's gonna jog some

732
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: kind of something in me. And I thought to myself,

733
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 2: and this is so crazy. I said, Man, she's she's scared.

734
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 2: I'm gonna die. How can I use that?

735
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: You know?

736
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 2: So I said, okay, Mom, there's people in the street.

737
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: They're they're threatening to shoot me. They're threatening to kill me.

738
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 2: I stole this. I stole that. I need a hundred bucks,

739
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: I need two hundred bucks. I need three hundred bucks

740
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: if I don't give it to them by monday. You

741
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: know that kind of thing. So even you know, you

742
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 2: get so manipulative as an addict. And again, I'm not

743
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: proud of any of this, but I think the radical

744
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 2: vulnerability goes a long way to try to explain to people.

745
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: You know, God took me legitimately out of the gutter

746
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: and put me on a solid ground and gave me

747
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 2: life and a purpose and a family and made me

748
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: a father, a husband, you know, a writer, an author.

749
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: And I'm just so incredibly grateful for every moment, every

750
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: breath that I have because I know that I you know,

751
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: if it were up to me, I wouldn't be here

752
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: if it wasn't for the Lord. So so one day,

753
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: I'm in Long Branch, I shoot my last couple of

754
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: bags of dope and I say, that's it. I'm not

755
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: living this life anymore. I'm going to jump in front

756
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: of a train. This is my last day on earth.

757
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: I just can't do this one more day. So I

758
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: started to go home.

759
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 3: Are you on the streets at this point?

760
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 1: No?

761
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: No, I do have a home living with my mother.

762
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 2: At that time, she was in Lomber. I was bouncing around.

763
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: I was going from my mother's house to you know,

764
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 2: this one's house to my father's house. You know, I'm

765
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 2: just kind of bouncing around. But I think at that

766
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 2: time I was at my mother's house and I'm I'm

767
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: on a curb and Long Branch shot my last couple

768
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 2: bags of dope, and I decided to go to the

769
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: train station. I'm going to jump in front of the

770
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 2: next train I see. And I'm on my way there

771
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: and I see mom with medical center. You have to

772
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: pass it to get to the train station, and I say,

773
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm going to just go in there.

774
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: And I just felt like a pole. I felt like

775
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: this divine pole into the hospital. So I told them

776
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: what was going on. They put me in the psych ward.

777
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: I had been there before, and my mother asked me,

778
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: do you need anything. I said, Mom, there's a Bible

779
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: on my nightstand. They gave it to me at that place, Keswick,

780
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: Colony of Mercy, I was at six months ago. It

781
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: was a Christian rehab. They had asked me to leave

782
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 2: because I was shooting dope in the bathroom. So six

783
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 2: months later, this is where I'm at. I'm in the

784
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: psych ward two o'clock in the morning. I got this

785
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: Bible that they gave me. I opened it up to

786
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: a random page. I said a quick prayer and it

787
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: was something like, Lord, you know God, I can't I

788
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 2: can't live like this anymore. I know that you're there,

789
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: but I need to, like, if you're who you say

790
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: you are, I need to hear something from you. You

791
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 2: know that that directly ties into my situation somehow or whatever.

792
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: So I opened it up to this random page and

793
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: it was Psalm eighty eight and I start to read

794
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: this Psalm and John, I'm telling you, if I could

795
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 2: have wrote God a letter in that moment and told

796
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: them how I felt, it would have been Psalm eighty eight.

797
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: It would have been every word, every line, and I

798
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 2: just it broke me in half. Bro I just I

799
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: put my face to the floor. I'm crying like hysterical.

800
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 2: I'm begging Jesus to save me. I felt like a

801
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: literal embrace from God in that moment, Like you know,

802
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: I mean, it felt like when you're a little kid

803
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 2: and you're crying and you can't breathe. You're crying so

804
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 2: hard and you know your dad or your mom hugs you,

805
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: and you feel like, Okay, I'm safe.

806
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: That's how I felt. And I went to sleep.

807
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: That night and woke up the next morning and they said, look,

808
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 2: you don't have insurance. We got to figure out a

809
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 2: way to check you out of here. They said, you know,

810
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: use our phone, try to get in some I actually

811
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 2: begged them because I said, I haven't had three days

812
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: clean in a long time, or two days whatever it was.

813
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: And I said, and so you think of two days

814
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: not a long time, but for a heroin out of

815
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 2: two days, it's like an eternity without heroin. So you know,

816
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: I'm begging them, please can I stay here? Is there

817
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: anything I could do? They said, look, he can't stay here,

818
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 2: Try to use our phone, try to get in somewhere.

819
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 2: I call like ten places, no available anything. So I

820
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 2: get frustrated. Right, I go to my room. I have

821
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,439
Speaker 2: a little mesh bag of clothes left in the world.

822
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 2: All I have left couple shirts, couple whatever. I ask

823
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: socks is that? So I head to the door and

824
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 2: I tell the woman buzz me out of here. You know,

825
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: I'm kind of angry at this point. Buzz me out

826
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 2: of here. In midhand motion, the phone rings, so she's

827
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: going to hit the buzzer to let me back out

828
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: on the street. Phone rings instead, She picks it up,

829
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 2: talks for a minute. She says, it's for you. I

830
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: get on the phone. It was the director of admittance

831
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 2: for this place, Kezick Colony of Mercy. It's Christian rehab

832
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: in South Jersey. And he says, how you doing, Arman?

833
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 2: I said, I'm horrible. I told him what was going on.

834
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 2: He said, well, a strange thing happened to me last night.

835
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: I said what happened? He said, God woke me up

836
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 2: out of a dead sleep and told me he wants

837
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 2: you to come back to this place. So I could

838
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 2: not fathom it John in that moment, But at the

839
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 2: same time I was crying out to Jesus, he was

840
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: waking this man up in another part of the state.

841
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: And this guy wakes up in the morning and says,

842
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: I have to find this guy. I got to get

843
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: him back in this rehab And by the way, the

844
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: one place I didn't call because I figured there's no

845
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: chance they would take me back. I'm not even gonna

846
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 2: bother so I didn't call them. And he found my

847
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: mother and she in turn gate, told him where I was.

848
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: He called, and I knew it was my opportunity.

849
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: Bro.

850
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: I just jumped through it. I said, there's something strange

851
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: happening here. I can't explain it. But I was dope, sick,

852
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: like crazy. But I hopped in a car. I remember

853
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: looking out the window, you know, you see the traffic lines.

854
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: I'm on this highway on the way to uh Kezi

855
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: because it's like maybe thirty five forty minutes from where

856
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 2: I was, and I was legitimately thinking about jumping out

857
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: of the car onto the road and rolling away to

858
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: say to, you know, to freedom, because I'm like, how

859
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: am I going to?

860
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: You know?

861
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: Four months it's like literally like an eternity, It felt like,

862
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: you know, in that.

863
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 1: Moment, but I went always place yeah.

864
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 4: Real quickly before before you go to this part of

865
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 4: the story. I just want to I want to read

866
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 4: a little bit of Psalm eighty eight, I think, because

867
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 4: it's so good, and if you're not watching, I'm reading

868
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 4: from the Life Recovery Bible, which I've just come to

869
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 4: really appreciate. And then i want to read you the

870
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 4: little note but psawm eighty eight. And so this is

871
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 4: this is the cry that Armand does in the middle

872
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 4: of the night. It says, Oh Lord, God of my salvation.

873
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 4: It's the new living translation. I cry out to you

874
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 4: by day, I come to you at night. Now hear

875
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 4: my prayer. Listen to my cry, for my life is

876
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 4: full of troubles and death draws near. I am as

877
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 4: good as dead, like a strong man with no strength left.

878
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 4: They have left me among the dead, and I like

879
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 4: a corpse in a grave. I am forgotten, cut off

880
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 4: from your care. You have thrown me into the lowest pit,

881
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 4: into the darkest steps. Your anger weighs me down. With

882
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 4: wave after wave. You have engulfed me. You have driven

883
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 4: my friends away by making me repulsive to them. I

884
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 4: am in a trap with no way of escape. My

885
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 4: eyes are blinded by my tears. Each day I beg

886
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 4: for your help, Oh Lord, I lift my hands to

887
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 4: you for mercy. Are your wonderful deeds of any use

888
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 4: to the dead? Do the dead rise up and praise you?

889
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 4: And so that's the first ten verses. And then I

890
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 4: want to read this little I want to read what

891
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 4: the Life Recovery Bible says in the notes here it says.

892
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 4: And if this is not you, you know, and so

893
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 4: many of us, right, all of us who have struggled

894
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 4: with addictions, know what it means to feel hopeless and

895
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 4: overwhelmed by troubles. It is comforting to know that God

896
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 4: listens to our cries. We are privileged to have the Bible,

897
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 4: which tells us about God and his power to help

898
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 4: us when we call out to him. No situation is

899
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 4: hopeless for those who call out to God. When we

900
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 4: feel helpless and abandoned, we need to look to God

901
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 4: and hope in his deliverance. Man, I mean that Psawm

902
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 4: eighty eight. I was actually reading this morning in the

903
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 4: Psalms and just very similar like Psalm sixty nine and

904
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 4: Psalm seventy. And you know, it's interesting because like I'm

905
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 4: not you know, I'm obviously you know, I'm sober, and

906
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 4: I'm not where I was right but yet, you know,

907
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 4: what I have continued to find is like the way

908
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 4: that life works and the sin and the brokenness of

909
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 4: the world that still exists works, is that there's always

910
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 4: going to be some type of hopelessness that is there,

911
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 4: right at least that's my experience. And so I am

912
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 4: just so encouraged by your crying out to God. It

913
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 4: mirrors some of my crying out to God in the

914
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 4: past and even currently. And man, so what an incredible

915
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 4: thing you're And I think, by the way, one of

916
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 4: my encouragements to those people listening, and I've heard this

917
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 4: in the past and I'm trying to do it more

918
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 4: is to pray the psalms right, yes, and really like

919
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 4: as you're reading them, like, what does that look like?

920
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 4: I think it doesn't have to be anything mysterious, but

921
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 4: it's like, Lord, this is me.

922
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 3: I'm crying out to you. I'm asking you for this.

923
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 4: I mean, there's a guy that I know right now, arman,

924
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 4: that is drinking himself to death, and I'm going to

925
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 4: send it. As soon as we get done with this,

926
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 4: I'm going to send him Palm sixty nine, Psalm seventy

927
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 4: and some eighty eight and say, brother, this like this

928
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 4: is you, I know it, you know, so thank you

929
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 4: for sharing that. I just love infusing the scripture where

930
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 4: we can. And so what what a what a gut

931
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 4: wrenching and true psalm. So so then you know that's

932
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 4: our little commercial if you will it for the Bible.

933
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: But you know what, you know what, John two, I'm

934
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 2: so glad that you read that. And maybe it's a

935
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 2: good time. I was gonna maybe talk about it later,

936
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: but I think it's a good time to talk about

937
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: really quickly.

938
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 1: And aside from I'll continue on with the story.

939
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: Is that my second book is just about finished and

940
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 2: the title is He Meets Us in the Dark. And

941
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 2: the reason that I wrote that is because I became

942
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 2: fascinated with this particular psalm. God, what was it about

943
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 2: this that you used it to break me in such

944
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: a way that I would my heart will be on

945
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: fire for you? Why did you even leave a salm

946
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: like that in the cannon? There's no hope in it?

947
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: The last line, the last line is darkness is my

948
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 2: closest friend. There's no turn toward hope or you know,

949
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: it's not like the rest of the Psalm. So I

950
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: started to ask myself, first of all, who wrote this,

951
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: Why did they write it? What were their lives like,

952
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 2: what were they going through? And I found a really

953
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: fascinating story. John.

954
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this.

955
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: So I wrote this book for people that are living

956
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 2: in some of the darkest moments of their lives. They

957
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 2: may be believers even and they're coming to church week

958
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: after week, and they're hearing all these sermons of victory,

959
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: but inside, they're dying inside, legitimately dying inside, and they

960
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: won't talk to anybody because this idea of radical vulnerability.

961
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 2: They don't want people to think of them in a

962
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 2: negative way. They don't want to They don't want to

963
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: mess up their reputation. You know, maybe people look at

964
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: them in a certain way, and I can't talk about this.

965
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: I can't talk about that.

966
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 2: I think Psalm eighty eight gives language to that kind

967
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: of pain and the I think the reason, at least

968
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 2: this is my opinion, the reason God left that in

969
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,959
Speaker 2: the canon is to give us the freedom as Christians

970
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: to pray to God in that way. There's even like

971
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: some accusatory language. God, you put me in the lowest

972
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 2: pit in the darkest depths, which is, you know, people

973
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: don't want to pray something like that, and I just

974
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: think that, you know, as Christians, we get very good

975
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: at hiding, and so I wrote this book, you know,

976
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: to meet people in the darkest moments of their lives.

977
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 2: It's a thirty day transformational journey through Psalm eighty eight,

978
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: but it's it's riddled with scripture and cross references and

979
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 2: you know, old hymns that I put and I actually

980
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 2: wrote these pieces called movements, so that the whole book

981
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: moves kind of in a musical fashion because the psalms

982
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: are set to music. It's kind of orchestral language, and

983
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 2: there's these old hymns and quotes, and I.

984
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: Think people are really going to be blessed by it.

985
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: So I'm excited about that.

986
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: And I just wanted to mention it because we're talking about.

987
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 4: I was going to ask you to talk about the

988
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 4: new book at the end, but that was a perfect

989
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 4: that was a perfect place to do it, and I think, yeah,

990
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 4: you know, listen, a few months back, I stepped in

991
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 4: it by you know, talking about some of my own

992
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 4: cries of lament that you know, have been cuss filled

993
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 4: at times, and you know, I think the language of

994
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 4: recovery sometimes is is acoustic to people who have been

995
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 4: in the church for a long time. Right, And that's

996
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 4: not to say that that means it is okay and

997
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 4: right in every instance, but I think sometimes when we

998
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 4: are lamenting and we are in grief, like to your

999
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 4: point to point out that there's some accusatory language in

1000
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 4: here that is like, God, are you serious? And I

1001
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 4: think what the psalms show us, and to your great

1002
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 4: point of why would God leave a psalm like this

1003
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 4: in the scriptures, I think because they're they're examples of

1004
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 4: like when you are literally at the end of your rope,

1005
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 4: when you are so dope sick and you are just

1006
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 4: watching the.

1007
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 3: Lines pass outside.

1008
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 4: The car as you're going to your final last chance

1009
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 4: of hope and recovery, like, yeah, this is a psalm

1010
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 4: of that, you know, And and in my Bible, you know,

1011
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 4: and you know, I went to seminary and they talk

1012
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 4: about how these you know, in the psalms, there's there's

1013
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 4: these little sections I forget there's an actual name for him,

1014
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 4: but underneath the song says, you know, for the choir

1015
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 4: director and a superscription exactly exactly, and so it's like,

1016
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 4: you know, we don't know exactly when those were added, right,

1017
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 4: but they've kept him in there because it's just they've

1018
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 4: been in there for a very long time. But I

1019
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 4: love how Psalm eighty eight it says for the choir director,

1020
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 4: a Psalm of the descendants of Korra, a song to

1021
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 4: be sung to the tune the suffering of a And

1022
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 4: I think what's so interesting, Like there was a song

1023
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 4: out there called the suffering of Affliction that the children

1024
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 4: of Israel saying, and I would love to know what

1025
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 4: that said, right I. But guess what, it probably sounds

1026
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 4: a lot like Psaum eighty eight right now, you're probably right, yeah,

1027
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 4: it really, And sing it to the tune, baby, because

1028
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 4: these words are just like it.

1029
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: Well.

1030
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:28,959
Speaker 2: So one of the things that fascinated me about it

1031
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 2: was that that superscription that you're talking about, it's written

1032
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: by it so that Tommy eight is written by a

1033
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: man named Hayman, who is one of the sons of Korra.

1034
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 2: If you remember back to number sixteen, right Coorra. The

1035
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: he rebels with two hundred and fifty others against Moses,

1036
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 2: and the ground opens up and swallows them whole right.

1037
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 2: But there's one single line in there of redemption that

1038
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people miss, which is God

1039
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: spared the sons of Cora. They did not die. I'm

1040
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: paraphrasing that. But what happens is is from that line

1041
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: become this line of singers and poets and worship leaders,

1042
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: temple worship leaders and Hayman. He was a man known

1043
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: for his wisdom, and he was a leader in in

1044
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 2: worship and and in the in the uh in the

1045
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,439
Speaker 2: body of believers you know, of of the Jewish people

1046
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: at that time. So you know, he is a man

1047
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: who is steeped in faith and surrounded by all of

1048
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 2: this pomp and circumstance when it comes to when it

1049
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,479
Speaker 2: comes to God and temple worship. How does he find

1050
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: himself in this place where he writes this this song.

1051
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 2: You know it's but there's this redemptive arc in you know,

1052
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: that's that story of Cora and how He spared the

1053
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: sons of Korra. And then from that you get this

1054
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 2: guy Hayman. And when they talk about Haman's wisdom, they

1055
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 2: can when they talk about Solomon's wisdom, excuse me, they

1056
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: compare it to the wisdom of Hayman and a few others.

1057
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: So he was known for his wisdom. It just it

1058
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 2: was fascinating to me.

1059
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,240
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, okay.

1060
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: We had that little.

1061
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 4: Interlude which is a great interlude, great scripture interlude talking

1062
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 4: about the new book coming out, which I do want

1063
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 4: to let have you let us know when when people

1064
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 4: can pick that up at the end there. But okay,

1065
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 4: so you're on your way to this, you know, gospel

1066
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 4: centered recovery place.

1067
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 3: Pick up the story there.

1068
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: So Kezick Colony of Mercy is one of the oldest.

1069
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 2: I think it is the oldest living rehabilitation center in

1070
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: the country if I'm not mistaken. It was started by Okay,

1071
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 2: there you go. It was started by a man named

1072
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 2: William Raws, and he he had a vision and he

1073
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: built this little place back in the late eighteen hundreds.

1074
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 2: And there have been you know, hundreds for sure, maybe

1075
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 2: even with thousands of men who have come through this

1076
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 2: program for alcohol and drugs and you know, and have

1077
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 2: just had these life transforming situations happen and where they

1078
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: put their trust and faith in Jesus. So anyway, I

1079
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 2: give my heart to Christ, I go to this place.

1080
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: I fall in love with the Lord. But it wasn't

1081
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 2: It wasn't easy, man. It was two weeks of absolute

1082
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: hell on earth. I'm talking this place.

1083
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: There's no.

1084
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 2: When you get clean here, there's no there's no subox,

1085
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 2: and there's no things to kind of wean you off

1086
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 2: of the heroine. It's a work program. There's no TVs.

1087
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: It's you know, you're in the middle of the woods.

1088
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 2: It's the pine barrens. It's basically and you're just there

1089
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: and it's just you, your Bible, the Lord and then the

1090
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 2: other forty men that you're there with going through with you.

1091
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 2: And then you know, all of the the leaders that

1092
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 2: are there, you know, the the chaplains and people that

1093
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 2: are your counselors and others.

1094
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: But we were just when I tell you, Bible from

1095
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: the tour, from the.

1096
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,399
Speaker 2: Time you woke up in the morning to the time

1097
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: you went to sleep, you were getting Bible, you were

1098
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 2: getting sermons, you were getting worship, you were you know,

1099
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: while while you were working, you were worshiping and learning.

1100
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 2: And you know, I just fell in love with the Lord,

1101
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 2: and you know, just my my life completely transformed.

1102
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: It was night and day.

1103
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:09,479
Speaker 2: So how long are you there? So it's a four

1104
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 2: month program. The first three weeks, like I said, I mean,

1105
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 2: I was what I tell you, I didn't sleep. I

1106
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: don't think more than you know, seven eight hours within

1107
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 2: that two weeks.

1108
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: It was just it was horrific.

1109
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 2: Man. I was hallucinating and seeing things having these demonic

1110
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 2: kind of attacks in the middle of the night, and

1111
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 2: I just remember being the worst moments ever. And they

1112
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 2: had a little fireplace room in there. It was down

1113
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 2: the hall. You know, it was a small it's a

1114
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 2: small place where all these forty guys are living. There's

1115
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 2: these hallways and they all kind of lead to there's

1116
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 2: a fireplace room, and then there's a recreation room. And

1117
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 2: I can remember I was so dope sick, and I

1118
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: was my body hurt so bad, and I was so

1119
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 2: miserable that I would sneak out in the middle of

1120
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 2: the night and I would go to They had like

1121
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 2: a you know, vending machine with like snacks and stuff.

1122
00:53:58,360 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 2: I'd put some money in there and get a couple

1123
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 2: Entiman's cakes or whatever, I you know, kind of things,

1124
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 2: because I was like kinda I think a lot of

1125
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 2: heroin aouts when they come off, they go to sugar,

1126
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 2: you know, as like a kind of a replacement or

1127
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 2: a comfort. So you know, it's not that it's a

1128
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 2: good thing, but that's what I was doing. I was

1129
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 2: going into the fireplace room and there would be like

1130
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 2: embers in the fire left over from you know, a

1131
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: couple hours earlier, and I would go outside and I'd

1132
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:27,959
Speaker 2: get some fire wood and come back in and build

1133
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 2: the fire slowly, and then I would just sit in

1134
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 2: front of the fire man and I did that night

1135
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: after night, and I would just pray and ask God

1136
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: to please just like get me out of the just

1137
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 2: how I can't feel this anymore, you know, And I

1138
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 2: wanted to run. I wanted to leave the program. But

1139
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 2: night after night I went and he was faithful and

1140
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,439
Speaker 2: he kept me there, and you know, i'd be I said,

1141
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 2: you know what, if I'm going to be awake, I

1142
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: might as well read this Bible.

1143
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 1: So I opened it up and just I'm page after

1144
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 1: page and I'm just reading. And the more I read,

1145
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: the more my.

1146
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 2: Heart was just you know, my heart was changing, my

1147
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: mind was changing. And eventually I did sleep. Eventually I

1148
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 2: got through that proverbial night, and you know, the Lord

1149
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: was just so faithful and so patient with me, and

1150
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: then my whole everything chap, My mind started to come

1151
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 2: back to me. You could even read you know, my brother,

1152
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: my younger brother, he's ten years younger than me. He

1153
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,959
Speaker 2: sent me some letters last year that he had from

1154
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 2: the time that I was in there, and he's like, Bro,

1155
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 2: you can see from the time you went in because

1156
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 2: you couldn't write a letter for the first two weeks,

1157
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 2: but the first two weeks, you know, when I first

1158
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 2: could write a letter, you could look at that first

1159
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 2: letter versus the letter a month later, two months later,

1160
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 2: three months later, you could see my mind coming back

1161
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 2: and me becoming like a person again, you know. And yeah, man,

1162
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 2: it just and it wasn't just me, he was. That

1163
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 2: place is miraculous. There's so much going on, There's so

1164
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 2: much God is doing in that place on a regular

1165
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 2: basis that I was watching families be restored, I was

1166
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 2: watching prayers get answered, I was you know, I was

1167
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 2: watching these these times of worship where I mean, it

1168
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 2: was just incredible.

1169
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: It was absolutely incredible.

1170
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 4: You said something that I want to kind of press

1171
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 4: into a little bit because I think, on one hand,

1172
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 4: you know what I try to do and what I'm

1173
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 4: trying to do with my ministry of veritas recovery is

1174
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 4: it's kind of marry the spiritual with the practical, right.

1175
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 4: But I think sometimes and and I can even be

1176
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 4: fall into this trap is is to is to juxtapose

1177
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,879
Speaker 4: those two and say that the spiritual isn't practical right.

1178
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 4: And and yet I think, you know, you talked about

1179
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 4: how in your first you know, little bit of recovery

1180
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 4: there at the center where you're like, you know, I'm

1181
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 4: I'm literally just having to go to the word. I'm

1182
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 4: literally just having to cry out and pray to God.

1183
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 4: And I think sometimes, you know, people will ask me,

1184
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 4: what do I you know, Okay, I'm gonna stop drinking

1185
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 4: or I have to stop drinking.

1186
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 3: What do I What do I do?

1187
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 4: I'm pacing and blah blah blah, And I'm like, I

1188
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,359
Speaker 4: can tell you that what I did is I didn't.

1189
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 4: I didn't necessarilys you know, I didn't sign up for

1190
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 4: seventy five hard and you know, try to.

1191
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 3: You know, run it away.

1192
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying that you can't do that right

1193
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 4: like some like you know, I eventually did start a

1194
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 4: running regiment, and.

1195
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 3: That was good and healthy.

1196
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 4: But even in that very immediate I mean I am

1197
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 4: just literally just like crying out, like Lord, I can't sleep.

1198
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 4: I didn't how to sleep anymore like you. But you know,

1199
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 4: I didn't know how to sleep without at least being

1200
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 4: buzzed right right, And so so it's like sometimes like

1201
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 4: the quote unquote practical advice I give people, it's like

1202
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 4: you just need to sit with it, and you just

1203
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 4: need to sit with God. But I'm curious your kind

1204
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 4: of advice or what you say to those people who

1205
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 4: are like, Okay, I hear you, and I'm really scared

1206
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 4: of what it's going to look like in the very

1207
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 4: immediate What do I do?

1208
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this.

1209
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the thing about it is is the

1210
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: beginning is always very difficult. I'm not going to lie

1211
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 2: and pretend like it's not. You've been living a certain

1212
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 2: way for a long time, and now you know it's

1213
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: not just it's psychological, but it's also you know, physiology,

1214
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: and you know your body's going through things, your mind,

1215
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 2: your heart, you know, everything is connected and it's all

1216
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 2: going through like you know, I mean, it's just it's

1217
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 2: a heroin. I remember being in rehabs where I saw

1218
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 2: people come in with alcohol and I was like what's

1219
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 2: that person on, because it looked even worse than the heroine,

1220
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 2: and it's like, you know, the shaking, convulsions and things

1221
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 2: that they were going through. But so's it's it is

1222
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 2: very difficult in the beginning, but I could tell you

1223
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 2: the pain that you're going to go through is going

1224
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 2: to pale in comparison. It's much like the Gospel message.

1225
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: You know, this life has tribulation, and we have difficulty,

1226
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 2: But the tribulation and difficulty that we're going to have

1227
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 2: here pales in comparison to an eternity with Christ. It's

1228
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 2: gonna pale in comparison to being with our loved ones

1229
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 2: and our fellows and brothers and sisters in Christ for

1230
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 2: all of eternity. Right in the same way, the first

1231
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 2: two three weeks, a month, whatever where you're going through

1232
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 2: this thing, it's gonna be like hell on earth, you know,

1233
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 2: so to speak. But then afterwards that pales in comparison

1234
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 2: to I've been you know, since fifteen years, since since

1235
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 2: this all went on in my life, and since then,

1236
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 2: I've traveled to multiple countries with my wife, We've had

1237
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: three children, we've had the right of our lives. We've

1238
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 2: just had an incredible time, and I've been so blessed.

1239
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 2: And I mean I think about the last fifteen years,

1240
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 2: all that's happened. The month that I went through, you know,

1241
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 2: with traual just doesn't even can compare to the joy

1242
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 2: that I've felt over the past fifteen years. So I

1243
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: would just say that it may seem in that moment

1244
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 2: like there's not like there's not gonna be light at

1245
00:59:58,200 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 2: the end of that tunnel, like you're not going to

1246
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 2: get through, like there's not purpose on the other side

1247
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: of the pain. But I promise you that God has

1248
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,439
Speaker 2: a plan and a purpose for your life. He wants

1249
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,439
Speaker 2: to do incredible things through you, things that you can't

1250
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 2: even think or imagine. I mean the testimonies I've experienced

1251
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 2: with people that the people I've been able to to

1252
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 2: pour into and help help, you know, other people, it's

1253
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 2: it's incredible what the Lord has done. So I say

1254
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 2: I say all that to say it's gonna be tough

1255
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 2: in the beginning, but really I'm telling you, if you

1256
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: look at it, you know from a thirty thousand foot view,

1257
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 2: it's nothing in comparison to what you're gonna experience on

1258
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 2: the other side. And the other thing I would say,

1259
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 2: is you know, like going back to when I was ten.

1260
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 2: One of the things that happened early on in a

1261
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 2: way that that I got wrapped up in some of

1262
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 2: this abuse was the guy was a computer programmer. He was,

1263
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 2: you know, in very adept when it came to computers.

1264
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 2: And even back then, I'm talking like the old dial

1265
01:00:56,120 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: tone ring, you know whatever that was AOA we were downloading.

1266
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 2: He was downloading I should say, image after image after

1267
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 2: image of pornography on this computer. And I'm sitting there

1268
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 2: at ten years old, with this glowing screen and you know,

1269
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 2: you could see the picture slowly start to form down

1270
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 2: the screen. You remember how that used to happen back

1271
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 2: in the day. And I'm I'm just like, I'm ten

1272
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 2: years old and I'm seeing all of these things and

1273
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 2: I just didn't even know what to do with any

1274
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 2: of them. And what that caused was many years of

1275
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 2: struggling with pornography on and off. It wasn't like I was,

1276
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 2: you know, enveloped in that every day, but I would

1277
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 2: go back and forth and I would always kind of

1278
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 2: fall into it. And after I got saved, I wanted

1279
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: to get out of it, but I didn't know how

1280
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 2: to get out of it. And I think a lot

1281
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 2: of men struggle. As a matter of fact, you made

1282
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 2: a point in your book that you said a lot

1283
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 2: of Christian men will kind of cop out and just say, yeah,

1284
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 2: I struggle with lust, you know. And it's like, I'm

1285
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 2: just going to lower this a little bit, lower the

1286
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 2: temperature so that at least I told.

1287
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 1: Them I'm not lying. I'm being you know, I'm being authentic.

1288
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm hiding the city.

1289
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 2: And for me, you know, I would pray and I

1290
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 2: would cry out to God and I would you know,

1291
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 2: get up and I would fall, and you know, I

1292
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 2: would experience sometimes spiritual victory and sometimes spiritual defeat. And

1293
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: it wasn't until I married the spiritual with the practical,

1294
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 2: like you said, where there's a part of it where

1295
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 2: you cry out to God over and over again. So

1296
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 2: keep doing that, be faithful in that. And sometimes your

1297
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 2: prayers might just sound like mind data. It's just breath

1298
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 2: and tears. That's what the prayer is, you know, And

1299
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 2: maybe that's the prayer and God, God can definitely decipher

1300
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 2: and translate that prayer. He knows exactly what you're trying

1301
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 2: to tell him. With your breath and your tears. But

1302
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 2: you know, keep crying out to God, but there may

1303
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 2: be a time where you just have to say, Okay,

1304
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 2: enough is enough. I'm committing because I'm committed to the Lord.

1305
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 2: I'm committing myself to. We don't talk as much about

1306
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 2: repentance as we need to when you know a lot

1307
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 2: of people preach half of the Gospel. We leave out

1308
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 2: the hell part, we leave out the repentance part, and

1309
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,479
Speaker 2: people are just left with just believe in Jesus, which

1310
01:02:59,520 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 2: is true.

1311
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: But you know, somebody told me a long time ago.

1312
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 2: If you got a guy and he's on vacation and

1313
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 2: he's got a drink in his hand, and he's out

1314
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 2: floating in the water on a flotation device and you

1315
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 2: see a shark coming. If you try to pull him

1316
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 2: out of the water without pointing out that there's a

1317
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 2: shark out there, he's like, bro, what are you doing?

1318
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 2: Like I'm having an insane time right now. This is awesome,

1319
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 2: it's beautiful place. You know, I got my drink in

1320
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 2: my hand, I'm out here. But if you tell him, brother,

1321
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 2: there's a shark out there, you know what I mean,

1322
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 2: then it's like, Okay, now I understand what you're trying

1323
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 2: to rescue me from. So in the same way, I

1324
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 2: think we need to just tell people like, hey, you know,

1325
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 2: hell awaits those who don't put their trust in their

1326
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 2: faith in Jesus Christ, and repentance is a very important thing.

1327
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 2: I think it's the practical thing that we need to

1328
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 2: do when we're reaching. God already showed us his love

1329
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 2: by giving us his one and only son, that he

1330
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 2: died for us so that we could have eternal life.

1331
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 2: I think the moment that we've reached back out in

1332
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 2: faith in a practical way is where all the healing begins.

1333
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 2: And I think the Lord is very practical in how

1334
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: he marries together the spiritual and the practical, because he

1335
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 2: doesn't just say, Okay, I'm gonna do this for you.

1336
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,919
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, we're gonna do this now. Okay, we're

1337
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 2: repenting of this now.

1338
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 1: You know.

1339
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 2: The first one of the first things that God had

1340
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 2: me repent of was theft, because for a long time

1341
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 2: I was so used to stealing to get high that

1342
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 2: if I saw cash in any place, I could be

1343
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm at the convenience store, somebody's buying something.

1344
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 2: If I see green money, I'm thinking about how to

1345
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 2: get it right. So I'm at Keswick. It's like the

1346
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 2: first two weeks. So I'm still insanely dope sick. And

1347
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 2: they say, Arman, we want you to manage the collection plate.

1348
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 2: So they give me the collection plate and I'm standing

1349
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 2: in the bro I'm standing in the back of this

1350
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 2: little chapel, all these people worshiping. They just got done

1351
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 2: taking the offering at Sunday. I'm standing by the back

1352
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 2: door with a giant bowl of money, you know what

1353
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 2: I mean. Yeah, And I could just run out the door,

1354
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 2: which is what I would have done in the past.

1355
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 2: And I'm looking at it, and in that moment, the

1356
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 2: Lord said, you see what this is here. You have

1357
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 2: a problem with stealing, and so we're gonna repent of stealing.

1358
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 2: This was the first sanctification that God took me through.

1359
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 2: Stealing is wrong, it's a sin. We're not gonna do

1360
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 2: that anymore. He started out real slow. Bar was very

1361
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 2: low for me.

1362
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: Just don't steal the church's money right now. That's all

1363
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 1: I'm asking you to do.

1364
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 2: It's very you know, like, let's just get past that

1365
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 2: and then we'll move on to the and then you know,

1366
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 2: and then he keeps he keeps upping the ante as

1367
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 2: you begin to walk with him because you have more responsibilities,

1368
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 2: and he starts to like, well what about this?

1369
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: Now? How about this? Over here? There's a great little

1370
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 1: book called Make your Heart His Home.

1371
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever read it, but you know,

1372
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 2: the whole concept is like, we invite Jesus into our heart,

1373
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 2: which is a home that he's supposed to come in

1374
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:47,479
Speaker 2: and take ownership of, you know. And so if he's

1375
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 2: going to own this house, he's not just a guest anymore.

1376
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 2: He's not just there to kind of hang out for

1377
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 2: a little bit. He needs access to every part of

1378
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 2: the house. I love this little book. The author I

1379
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 2: think it was written a long time. I don't remember.

1380
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 2: People can look it up, but it's a cool little

1381
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 2: book and it's an easy read, and I think it's

1382
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 2: super practical because it's like, how do we give Jesus

1383
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 2: every part of our lives? So going back to the pornography,

1384
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 2: I struggled for years and years and I kept getting

1385
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:16,960
Speaker 2: up and falling. And one day this guy comes to

1386
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 2: me a long time ago and he says, hey, man,

1387
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 2: I know you're a Christian. I'm struggling with pornography. I

1388
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 2: don't know what to do about it. My wife is

1389
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 2: a great wife, she's available to me. I don't know

1390
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 2: why I'm doing what I'm doing. I can't make sense

1391
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 2: of it. But I know that you're a Christian and

1392
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 2: you probably don't do this. So how do I write?

1393
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh gosh, you know, like, how do I?

1394
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 4: So?

1395
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 2: I just was authentic with him. I'm like, bro, I

1396
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 2: struggled with the same thing. But I really wanted to

1397
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 2: help him, So I said, why don't we do this?

1398
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:45,479
Speaker 2: I said, let's go a month together. We'll go one month,

1399
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 2: me and you. I'm not gonna leave you on the

1400
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 2: front lines fighting for your life and I'm gonna be,

1401
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 2: you know, doing whatever. So I said, we're gonna do

1402
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 2: this together. We're gonna commit to it one month from

1403
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:56,440
Speaker 2: this day to this day. If you want to go

1404
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 2: back to it, fine, If I want to go back

1405
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 2: to it, fine, But we're gonna go one month. One

1406
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 2: month turned into two, then three, then four, then five

1407
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,200
Speaker 2: and six in a year. And you know, every time

1408
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 2: I check back with its like, bro, how you doing? Awesome?

1409
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 1: Man? I'm free, you know, And I think Christ gave

1410
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 1: me freedom.

1411
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 2: But you know, it was like I had to pray

1412
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 2: and fall and get up a thousand times before the

1413
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,439
Speaker 2: deliverance came. It wasn't just like okay. And I think

1414
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 2: he allowed that. I think he allows that in our

1415
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 2: lives for a reason, because when we go through the

1416
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 2: difficult process, there's muscles being built, there's things happening in

1417
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 2: that in the struggle, in the trial.

1418
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:37,479
Speaker 1: You know. So anyway, I'm probably talking too much.

1419
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 4: Because well, I mean, I love what you said about

1420
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 4: letting Jesus into all the parts of ourselves, right, I mean,

1421
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 4: that's that's one of my mantras, right when I talk

1422
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 4: about my story, it's that I had you know, even

1423
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 4: as a Christian, Right there were parts of my heart,

1424
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 4: there were parts of myself that I had not let

1425
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 4: Jesus full into.

1426
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 3: Now a lot of.

1427
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 4: Them happened to deal with and go back to some

1428
01:07:58,080 --> 01:07:59,080
Speaker 4: of those traumas. Right.

1429
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 3: I didn't want to. I didn't.

1430
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 4: It wasn't necessarily like Jesus, I don't want you here.

1431
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 4: It was I knew that if if I had to

1432
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 4: let Jesus into those parts, that means I had to

1433
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 4: face them.

1434
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 1: I had to open the door.

1435
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 4: I had to see what was in there as well, right,

1436
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 4: And so I think it is so true that when

1437
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 4: we look at you know, whether Christians or not, when

1438
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 4: we look at how this happens, it's we don't allow

1439
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 4: Jesus into all those parts of ourselves. And here's the thing, Armon, like,

1440
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,799
Speaker 4: I'm still finding parts, you know, I had something happened

1441
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 4: to me recently that I'm like, I I actually think

1442
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,280
Speaker 4: I have a struggle with anger.

1443
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 2: You know.

1444
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 4: I never would have maybe said it quite like that,

1445
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 4: you know, And so I'm like, reading this book on anger,

1446
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 4: I'm like, I need to root this out.

1447
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 3: There's some anger.

1448
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 4: You know. I thought that i'd gotten over that I

1449
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 4: was kind of an angry kid, but then I wasn't.

1450
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 4: And I'm like, and the Lord just revealed, like, no,

1451
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,640
Speaker 4: there's parts of yourself that you haven't fully let me

1452
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 4: into and you need to do that, right, And so

1453
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 4: I think I love hearing that from you. What would

1454
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 4: you say as we kind of wrap up here, what

1455
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,680
Speaker 4: would you say? You know, you're someone that tried a

1456
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,040
Speaker 4: lot of different types of rehabs, you know, programs, whatnot.

1457
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 4: What would you say is different about the Christ's centered,

1458
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 4: the gospel centered approach to recovery versus some of the others.

1459
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 2: Oh Man, I mean, it's well, it's night and day

1460
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:32,879
Speaker 2: because Jesus talks about building a house on a solid foundation.

1461
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:36,520
Speaker 2: If you don't build a structure on a solid foundation,

1462
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 2: right when the storms come, and they're going to come,

1463
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 2: people are going to pass away. You might have sickness

1464
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 2: in your you know, somebody close to you, or you

1465
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 2: may go through a health scare, or.

1466
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 1: You know a million other things that could happen in

1467
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 1: your life.

1468
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of addicts tend to look

1469
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 2: every time we went through something, we turned to whatever

1470
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:56,720
Speaker 2: the thing was that we went to for comfort, you know.

1471
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:00,719
Speaker 2: And I think what separates a Christian rec have from

1472
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,519
Speaker 2: from a secular rehab is.

1473
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:10,520
Speaker 1: That foundation in Christ that you're building.

1474
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 2: You're building your house on a solid foundation that you

1475
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 2: can always no matter what's gone on in my life

1476
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:17,799
Speaker 2: fifteen years, a lot of things have happened.

1477
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 1: We've had debts in the family.

1478
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 2: We've had you know, spina bifit, a diagnosis with my

1479
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 2: middle son Nicos, which I talk about all in the book. Well,

1480
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 2: we've had a ton of things happen, and you know,

1481
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:31,880
Speaker 2: rather than turning to anything else, it's been okay, I

1482
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 2: know exactly where to go. I'm going to Jesus. He

1483
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 2: is the answer. He's always the answer, He's always the

1484
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 2: right answer. And I think that that foundation was built

1485
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:43,599
Speaker 2: at Keswick. You know that to be in this place,

1486
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 2: that I was surrounded with these godly men that were

1487
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 2: doing life in a different way than I had ever

1488
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 2: seen or experienced, you know, number one, and then you know,

1489
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 2: being rooted in the Bible, understanding the scriptures. It was

1490
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 2: the first time I had ever read through the book

1491
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:03,640
Speaker 2: well and understood who Jesus actually was. I have a

1492
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 2: great friend of mine. His name is Josh Katchaduti, and

1493
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 2: he wrote a book called The Standard, and it's a

1494
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 2: phenomenal book. He the whole premise is that Jesus is

1495
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 2: the standard for masculinity, and he does it in a

1496
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 2: really masterful way.

1497
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 1: I love the book.

1498
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 2: But he you know, when I first read through that,

1499
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, you know, there's so many young guys

1500
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 2: they don't even know who Jesus is because I just

1501
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 2: thought he was like the feminized picture that I saw

1502
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:31,360
Speaker 2: on the wall. I didn't realize that he was the

1503
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 2: standard that I needed as a young man to look to.

1504
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 2: And you know the example that I that I didn't

1505
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 2: have in many ways. So anyway to answer your question

1506
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 2: very simply, what would the difference be is I think

1507
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 2: that would be the answer.

1508
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:46,280
Speaker 1: Is the foundation in Christ?

1509
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 4: You know, so you talked about you're working on a

1510
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:52,000
Speaker 4: new book, new book coming out. Where should people go

1511
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 4: if they want to learn more about you? If they

1512
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 4: want to find the the first book he calls me Readeem,

1513
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 4: which I'm holding up here in and then get the

1514
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 4: second book as well, and to you know, get in

1515
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 4: touch with you.

1516
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:05,000
Speaker 3: Where can they go?

1517
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, well you could follow me on Instagram. You

1518
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 2: just the thing about it is my last name is

1519
01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 2: very long, so it's kind of tough for people. I'm

1520
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:17,560
Speaker 2: trying to work out an easier way because my website

1521
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 2: is www dot armand Kaimaccheon dot com. So if you

1522
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:25,840
Speaker 2: just look up he calls me redeemed, you'll see a

1523
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,640
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff come up and you could spell out

1524
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 2: my full name. Hopefully, maybe there'll be some links in

1525
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 2: this video here that people could go to. So we'll

1526
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 2: we'll put links so that people could go to the website,

1527
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 2: go to my instagram. But for the new book, because

1528
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 2: I don't have an actual release day yet. It is

1529
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 2: in the final stages. I was hoping to have it

1530
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 2: out by Easter. It looks like maybe it might be

1531
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,280
Speaker 2: a little bit after because we're getting closer and closer.

1532
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 2: But that being said, they could follow my Instagram and

1533
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 2: they'll know exactly when the new book is coming out.

1534
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 2: I'm putting updates and stuff all the time, and the

1535
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 2: website has everything on there as well links to, you know,

1536
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:00,559
Speaker 2: my first book.

1537
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 1: He calls me redeemed, and.

1538
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,320
Speaker 2: I think people will really be blessed by both the

1539
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:10,200
Speaker 2: first and the second book. But since the first book

1540
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 2: is available right now, I'm just going to tell you

1541
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 2: that I've had so many people come to me since

1542
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 2: I wrote and published a book that said, hey, I

1543
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:21,120
Speaker 2: know you wrote this story. My son is suffering with addiction,

1544
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,599
Speaker 2: my daughter is going through this, my nephew's going through that.

1545
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,120
Speaker 2: We all know somebody who's dealing with some type of

1546
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,479
Speaker 2: an addiction. There's so many cool testimonies, John of people

1547
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 2: who've picked up the book, people that I never even

1548
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:34,760
Speaker 2: thought would want to read the book, that have read

1549
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 2: it and came back to me and said, this thing

1550
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 2: actually completely transformed the way I'm thinking about my life

1551
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 2: and about my relationship with Jesus. And it's been such

1552
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 2: a blessing to hear those testimonies. So if I could

1553
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 2: just ask a favor of the audience, if you are

1554
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:50,680
Speaker 2: willing to pick up a copy, you'd be awesome, And

1555
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 2: if you're willing to maybe give it to somebody who

1556
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:57,040
Speaker 2: you really think needs it. And honestly, if you're out

1557
01:13:57,080 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 2: there and you're like, I can't afford a book right now,

1558
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 2: give me a shoh out, tell me I'll give you

1559
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:01,559
Speaker 2: a copy.

1560
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:03,719
Speaker 1: Give it to somebody that you know that you love.

1561
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 2: And you know, I just hope that this book leads

1562
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 2: as many people to the Lord as possible. That's my

1563
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:14,000
Speaker 2: heart behind it, and you know, so humbly asking you

1564
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 2: guys to pick up a copy and try to help

1565
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 2: support what I'm doing. I'm going to rehab, speaking pretty

1566
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:21,160
Speaker 2: regularly and just trying to witness the.

1567
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:22,360
Speaker 1: People in every way that I can.

1568
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 4: Well, absolutely, and I hope that this this podcast helps

1569
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:29,200
Speaker 4: get that word out. And I thank you so much

1570
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 4: for your radical vulnerability. I can't wait to read the

1571
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 4: second book. You sent me an early copy that I

1572
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:38,320
Speaker 4: haven't had a chance to get through yet. But man,

1573
01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:41,799
Speaker 4: I know that what you're doing is important work and

1574
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:45,679
Speaker 4: you know, for the Gospel Sentator recovery movement, and can't

1575
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:48,479
Speaker 4: wait to even potentially partner with you on something. So

1576
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 4: thank you, thank you so much, appreciate you and we'll

1577
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:55,800
Speaker 4: be uh maybe we'll get you on again as we

1578
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:59,360
Speaker 4: talk more about Gospel senator recovery and what it looks like.

1579
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 2: So thanks, awesome man, all glory to God. Brother, thank

1580
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:03,799
Speaker 2: you so much for having me. It's been my pleasure.

1581
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:05,559
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1582
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:07,720
Speaker 4: You know, here's just one of the many things I

1583
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 4: love about what the Lord is doing right now is

1584
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:15,280
Speaker 4: that you know, I can I can talk about gospel

1585
01:15:15,320 --> 01:15:17,200
Speaker 4: centered recovery, right. And I talked a little bit about

1586
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:22,440
Speaker 4: Veritas Recovery and the ministry that my wife and I

1587
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 4: have started, and but like this concept of gospel centered recovery,

1588
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 4: it's not my concept, right, I mean, this is this

1589
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 4: is the concept I think of the Bible.

1590
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 3: Right, And yet it's so been so.

1591
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 4: Encouraging as I've interviewed people, as I've gotten to know people,

1592
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:41,719
Speaker 4: just to see how the Lord is orchestrating in a sense,

1593
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:45,160
Speaker 4: this movement, right, And that's really if you go to

1594
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,519
Speaker 4: Veritasrecovery dot org. And look at our mission and vision.

1595
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:52,960
Speaker 4: The vision is we are hoping for a movement of

1596
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 4: gospel centered recovery that doesn't minimum minimize the practical steps

1597
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 4: that are needed, doesn't minimize medication, and doesn't minimize twelve

1598
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 4: steps if that is a tool that you want to use.

1599
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 4: But it's saying, hey, listen, there is way more to

1600
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 4: life than just sobriety. And I think what ARMM was

1601
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 4: talking about there, especially at the end, is so important.

1602
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 3: Right.

1603
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 4: It's like, if your foundation of recovery is only in sobriety,

1604
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 4: only in not doing something, I just you're gonna face

1605
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 4: something that is going to really threaten that. And what

1606
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 4: I can say is I guess I've still faced stuff

1607
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:40,640
Speaker 4: that has threatened my sobriety, but the fact that I

1608
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:44,519
Speaker 4: have been rooted in Jesus has kept me man. I

1609
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 4: you know, as we recorded this, I had just gone

1610
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:50,679
Speaker 4: through what I would say is one of the hardest

1611
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 4: weeks of my life in recent memory, where I was

1612
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 4: did and said something stupid and you know, you know,

1613
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 4: was corrected and that is not fun. And it led

1614
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 4: to some dark places and some dark thoughts, and I

1615
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 4: can only imagine how I would have dealt with that,

1616
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:11,800
Speaker 4: and in some ways it would have been easier to

1617
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:12,880
Speaker 4: deal with with alcohol.

1618
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:18,839
Speaker 3: And yet the Lord met me there in those moments.

1619
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 4: And I love you, know Arman talking about how the

1620
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 4: Lord met him in his desperation. And so go read

1621
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 4: Psalm eighty eight, like, read the whole thing. I think

1622
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,040
Speaker 4: it's important. And then I'd also encourage you to read

1623
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 4: Psalm sixty nine and Psalm seventy. They've just been so

1624
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 4: helpful for me in this last week. Once again, if

1625
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:43,120
Speaker 4: you want to, you know, listen to or review this

1626
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:45,639
Speaker 4: podcast at free, you can go to the Veritas Daily

1627
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:48,800
Speaker 4: dot com and sign up for a PAN subscriber. That's

1628
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 4: different than the ministry that I've started, and I like

1629
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:54,640
Speaker 4: to be clear about that, but you know, if you

1630
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:58,639
Speaker 4: want to help, you know, kind of broadcast the message

1631
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 4: of gospel centered recovery, I'd be honored for just even

1632
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:05,720
Speaker 4: five dollars at Veritas Recovery dot org. Love you all,

1633
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:10,479
Speaker 4: Thank you to our partner Life Audio for making this possible.

1634
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:12,840
Speaker 3: We will see you here next week