1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm Doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody, welcome to this 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: joined today by one of our recurring guests and friends, 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: doctor Greg Quiggle. I'm really excited to have him on 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: the program today to talk about a new book that 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: he has written with Pastor Irwin Lutzer, Marx and Moody, 14 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones, One Choice, and that 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: just actually released yesterday. But from what Greg and I 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: talked about in the pre show recording, even in pre 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: it was tracking really well on Amazon, and so excited 18 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: for you, man, this is great. 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice to write something that somebody might actually 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: read for a change. 21 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: That's normally the goal I just haven't had it happen yet. 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's being of academic existence. 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: Well, this book's really interesting because I'm not exactly sure 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: that people would immediately put Marx and Moody together. So 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: why don't we start there? What was the conception of 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: Marx and Moody in this comparison? 27 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: Well, first off, most people probably don't know that their 28 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: lives overlapped by a little over forty years. So they 29 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: are contemporaries. These are not people that lived in radically 30 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: different places and times. Now it is true, they come 31 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: from quite different backgrounds. Karl Marx's Jew German converts to 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: Lutheranism and then eventually jettisons any sort of Christianity at all. 33 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: He is highly educated and is given opportunities that Dwight 34 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: Moody will never see. Moody, by comparison, is born in 35 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: rural Massachusetts, has maybe five or six years of formal education. 36 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: He grows up basically fatherless. His dad dies when he's four, 37 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: in really rank poverty. So they come from really different worlds, 38 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: but they share a common world in this sense. Both 39 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 2: of their lives will ultimately be focused on the emerging 40 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: urban center, so industrialization, immigration, all these sorts of things 41 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: that are going to pour into what we sometimes refer 42 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: to as Gilded Age with the rise of the Rockefellers 43 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: and the Vanderbilts and folks like this Carnegie and all 44 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: that happens as a part of that. Really are the 45 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: worlds in which they both inhabit. Mark spends a good 46 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 2: portion of his time in London. Moody will also be 47 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: in London. So although they are one is American and 48 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: one is European, they do have common experiences in terms 49 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: of seeing the impact of industrialization, urbanization, immigration on these 50 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: massive urban centers. 51 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that strikes me between, you know, 52 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: in the contrast between Marx and Moody is the difference 53 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: in the backgrounds. So you know, we talked we've talked 54 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: about Moody before, where Moody has you know, more of 55 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: a fifth grade level of education before he goes off 56 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: to help his family. Marx is schooled like he has 57 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: academic training. He's captured by the philosophy of Hegel, very 58 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: much involved with rethinking Hegel's dialectic. It's i would say, 59 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: one of the three big sort of influences on him. 60 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: He's also looking at sort of a theory of history, 61 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: and you know the critique of political economy, but so 62 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: much of that is grounded in Hegelian philosophy, which produces 63 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: this dialectic right of pull and push. We might say, 64 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: we don't have to go too far into Hagel, but 65 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: just to underscore the point that they are coming at 66 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: this from two very different vantage points, even though they're 67 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: intersecting in time. Marx is a much more studied person 68 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: than Moody. Moody is not ignorant by any stretch of 69 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: the imagination, but he's not interacting with the academic tomes 70 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: in the same way or that Marx is. 71 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: No if you walked up to Dwight Moody and said, 72 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: explain Hegalianism, he would probably laugh and say, let's go 73 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: for a ride in the cart or something. Moody is 74 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: a concrete, practical thinker. He's a farmer at heart to 75 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: some extent. Marx is theoretical and philosophical. So one is 76 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: looking at it from a kind of a bottom common 77 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 2: man perspective. The other one, although his work is focused 78 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 2: on the plight of the common man, is addressing it 79 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: from a theeal, theoretical, philosophical perspective. 80 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think at that time, you know, you 81 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: have Hegel, who obviously does some things with God, although 82 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: his later students really push back on that aspect of 83 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: his philosophy. They feel like it gives too much away. 84 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: And so you also have a gentleman named Feuerbach who 85 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: would have argued that religion is self alienation, human self alienation. 86 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: It's keeping us from realizing who we truly are, in 87 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: other words, and so you have these two very different philosophies. 88 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: Because Moody as uneducated, his lack of formal education does 89 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: not leave him ignorant of scripture. And so for Moody 90 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: it's going to be no, we find our true humanness, 91 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: although I doubt he'd ever say it that way, we 92 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: find our true humanness in following Jesus Christ. Whereas for 93 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: Marx it's no, religion is sort of the opiate of 94 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: the masses. It's keeping people dull and numb and keeping 95 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: them from understanding what true humanness looks like. And so 96 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: for him, religion is an obstacle. For Moody, religion really 97 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: is specif particular Christianity is the solution. 98 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. So not only that Moody believes in life after death. 99 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: He believes in the eternal, so he is not interested 100 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:22,679 Speaker 2: in just addressing the current and the secular. He's also 101 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: interested in preparing people for the next life while addressing 102 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: the plights they find themselves in in this life. But 103 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: since he believes in the eternal, he prioritizes the eternal. Now. 104 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: What is unique is what Moody does is he refuses 105 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: to use the eternal as an excuse to not address 106 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 2: the temporal, or the secular, or the concrete or this life. Now. 107 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 2: He prioritizes them, but he does not in any way, 108 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: shape or form, make one important to the exclusion of 109 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 2: the other. Marx isn't interested in that. Marx's concrete materialism, 110 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: this is it, and so he's not into and so 111 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: thus his comment, it's the opiate for the masses. Oh, 112 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 2: people use the idea of the eternal as a way 113 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: to justify or make them able to oppress people. It'll 114 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 2: get fixed in the next life, don't worry about it. 115 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: That is certainly not what Moody is saying, But he's 116 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 2: also saying it it will get fixed in the next life. 117 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: But that doesn't let us off the biblical hook to 118 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: address this life as well. 119 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's an interesting dichotomy here because Marx obviously moves 120 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: more towards socialism where there's going to be I suppose 121 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: the more popular way to understand it, and I'm sure 122 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: it's more nuanced than this, but I'm just going to 123 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: say it advance our conversation. Socialism there is no real ownership. 124 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: Everybody shares everything in common, and so there's a redistribution 125 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: of wealth across society. The socialism. For Moody, he's not 126 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: advancing socialism, but he is redistributing wealth, primarily his wealth 127 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: and the wealth that is given to him. And he's 128 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: doing that as he sees needs everywhere. And so there's 129 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: a sense of odd resonance there in the sense that 130 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: both care about this sort of redistribution, both see the 131 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: inequities in society and seek to address them. Rudy from 132 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: a very much a love of God, and then you know, 133 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: sort of that emerging as love of neighbor, Mark seemingly 134 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: from more of a sense of what I would And 135 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: this may be too generous, but I would say like 136 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: a deep sense of justice that is misguided by his 137 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: unwillingness to contemplate God. 138 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, he's utterly naive about the state. His idea 139 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 2: that yes, there is no ownership. Everything is owned by 140 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 2: the state. So the state then becomes the arbitra and 141 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: the one that redistributes, and YadA, YadA, YadA. Well, you know, 142 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: name a state in the history of the world that 143 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: acted justly towards all its people. I mean, why should 144 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: I believe that the state is going to behave anymore 145 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 2: with any more charity than the capitalist All that does 146 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: is allow those who are in power in the state. 147 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: And all you have to do is look at the 148 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: communist states under the old Soviet Union. Yes, the workers 149 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: got YadA, YadA, YadA, but don't think for a minute 150 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: that the members of the High members of the polit 151 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: bureau weren't living high on a hog. They absolutely were, 152 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 2: excuse they had all kinds of fancy cars, you know, 153 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: better food, better clothing, vacation places. So what was the 154 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 2: difference between Leonie Brezhneff and Rockefeller. Frankly nothing because he 155 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,599 Speaker 2: had all this stuff because he was the head of 156 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 2: the state in that sense. So there's a kind of 157 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 2: naivete there. And the other thing that Moody would say 158 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 2: is Christians are under an obligation to act justly. If 159 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: you're a Christian and you own a business, pay your 160 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: people properly, treat your workers with respect. Now he's going 161 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: to get criticized for not saying that enough, and frankly, 162 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: that is probably fair early in his career. But you 163 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 2: talked about Moody growing and his understanding. One of the 164 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: things that we see as he gets older, as he 165 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: begins to say, this is not right the way that 166 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: people are treating workers. This is wrong, and the Bible 167 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: teaches that we're not supposed to treat people this way. 168 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: What's interesting is, and it's outside of the realm of 169 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: this book, but in the Catholic Church they are developing 170 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: Catholic social thought, and this is where we get ideas 171 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: like minimum wage et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Because 172 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: it's a matter of justice. For Moody, it's a matter 173 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: of charity. Love God loves me. I'm undeserving. I am 174 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: obligated to love my neighbor and make sure that he 175 00:13:53,240 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 2: is appropriately rewarded for his labor. And those who, through 176 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: no fault of their own, are unable to labor must 177 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 2: be taken care of. And he did that practically all 178 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: the time. 179 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: Do you see in Moody's thaw, Greg So, when he's 180 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: talking about that and we're talking about Christian charity, we're 181 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: seeing him sort of advocate for these things, particularly as 182 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: you said later in life. I remember something about the 183 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: trusts that were being set up for children, you know, 184 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: making sure that your children had you know, so much. 185 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: But his comment was, you know, don't make you know, 186 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: you're you're setting them up financially, but you're also setting 187 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: them up for spiritual ruin, like they still need to work. 188 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: This is an important aspect of society. And so there 189 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: was that ethos about him. But was he speaking more 190 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: to the broad general sort of system or is he 191 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: speaking to Christians within that system or was it just 192 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of both. I think either way, I 193 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, I'm interested to sort of think that through 194 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: in relation to marks. 195 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little of both. I think if you 196 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: I think Moody would say there is nothing wrong with 197 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: being rich as long as your gain is not done 198 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 2: in an unjust manner, and then you are obligated to 199 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: plow that back into those who are less fortunate. Now 200 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: he has no time for people who are lazy. That 201 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: that's right, That no way that ain't happening. But for 202 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: people that work hard, particularly wives and children. What he 203 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: did during the course of his entire life was raised 204 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: money from wealthy people to provide social services we would 205 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 2: call them, for these people. And he saw that as 206 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: a correct reading of the Bible. That's what the Bible teaches, 207 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: that we care for those who cannot care for themselves. 208 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: The rich must care for the poor, as long as 209 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 2: the poor are actually working. 210 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: I remember something, and we'll see if you remember this 211 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: or if I'm just totally misremembering it about dial Moody. 212 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: He had given a critique of what I believe or 213 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: called mission churches. And his part of his comment, and 214 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: this is going somewhere back to, you know, sort of 215 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: the comparison between Moody and Marks. But as I recall it, 216 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: his critique was that these rich churches, we're sending money 217 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: sort of across the pond, you know, across the tracks, 218 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: we might say, I guess, to these poorer churches and 219 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: these poorer individuals. And mister Moody gave this critique, and 220 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: he said, why don't you just go over there and 221 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: give them a ride in your carriage? Why aren't you 222 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: engaging more specifically with yes. And so while we talk 223 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: a lot and appropriately talk a lot about Moody sort 224 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: of taking this creating these social services through the wealthy 225 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: donations from the wealthy, I think it's also really crucial 226 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: to highlight the fact that Moody never intended to keep 227 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: the rich away from the poor or vice versa, that 228 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: he viewed this as part of this whole complex that 229 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: he's looking at is saying, no, we need to be 230 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: with each other. Yes, there isn't a rich poor aspect 231 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: of this. 232 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: That is absolutely correct, James, and thank you for bringing 233 00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: that up. Moody did not think that just giving money 234 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: away was all that God required. He required us to 235 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: be engaged practically, face to face, you know, flesh on 236 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 2: flesh kind of engagement with each other. I think that's 237 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: one of the reasons he was so moved by the YMCA, 238 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 2: because one of the things the YMCA did was it 239 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: brought business men into the why to help young men 240 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 2: who were immigrating to cities and masses, to give lectures, talks, 241 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: you know, teaching them, hey, here's how you do this, 242 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,239 Speaker 2: here's how you do that, so that it wasn't just 243 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: a matter of here's ten bucks. It was life to life. 244 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: I think that's a term, you know, life on life 245 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: evangelism or life on life discipleship, that you need to 246 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: engage with these people as people. They're not horses. You 247 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 2: don't just buy them carets. You know that, of course 248 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 2: they need carrots, but these are human beings and so 249 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 2: you need to have your hands in their lives. And 250 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: that's what the church is about. It's not one group 251 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: sits over here, another group sits over there, and they 252 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 2: send him money every once in a while. It's this 253 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 2: much more life on life engagement that is central to 254 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: what it means to be a faithful Christian. To answer 255 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: jesus question or the question, who is my neighbor, it's 256 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 2: the good Samaritan did not just give the guy money. 257 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: He actually took care of him and and gave him money. 258 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: And that's I think that's the part of this that 259 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 2: Moody has something to say to us today. It's too 260 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 2: easy to just write a check. What we need to 261 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: do is really see these people as human beings as 262 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: Jesus sees them, and pour ourselves into their lives. 263 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: And I think part of where I wanted to kind 264 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: of get to with this is you see, Moody, And 265 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: what's hindering all of that that you just discussed, this 266 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: sort of Christian obligation, the care of neighbor, the overflowing 267 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: of the love of God in material ways, not just 268 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: in giving up money, but actually in time and embody 269 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: to sort of care for one another. I think one 270 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: of the things that he would say is it's sin. 271 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: It's our unwillingness to yield to the spirit of God. 272 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: It's our unwillingness to love God with all we are 273 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: and have it's selfishness. It's these things that are creeping 274 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: in all over the place. But I think interestingly he 275 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: has a solution for that, and it's the Gospel. It's 276 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: the ongoing work of sanctification of the Holy Spirit. Like 277 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: there's a theological element to deal Moody's understanding of this 278 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: where Christians are going to be moved forward progressively, not perfectly, 279 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: but progressively toward a greater love of neighbor. I would 280 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: argue that the biggest problem in Marxist system is that 281 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: he offers no solution to the sort of overpowering nature, 282 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: the overreach of a state. So for those of you 283 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: who are unfamiliar Marx theorizes that what's going to have 284 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: to happen in order for the bourgeoisie right to be 285 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: overcome by the proletariat is a revolution some sort of 286 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: Usually it's a violent revolution. Once that vile revolution takes place, 287 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: then what you'd have as a transnational state that is 288 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: going to be managing the economic relations between people, and 289 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: that transnational state is to eventually relinquish power. Now he 290 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: gives no mechanism for that relinquishment of power. He gives 291 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: no understanding of how that's going to go. And I 292 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: think in part it's because he is lacking in his 293 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: deep understanding of how hard the human heart actually is. 294 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: How do you deal with selfishness? How do you deal 295 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: with greed? Now that is not me saying the only 296 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: solution to this is sin, right, It's like, I think 297 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: it is more complex than that. But you see it 298 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: in Marxist philosophy. As he draws this forward, he has 299 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: no solution really to maintaining these sorts of relationships between people, 300 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: because if you got rid of the government completely, he 301 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: intuitively knows that's going to be chaotic. And yet keeping 302 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: the government doesn't really solve the problem because greg as 303 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: you noted like there's excess at the top. They're not 304 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: participating in society in the same way as Marx was 305 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: sort of trying to map this out, And so Marxism 306 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: one thing you could say for this sort of socialist vision, 307 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: it is in part problematic because it has no way 308 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: to buffer against the same sort of excess is that 309 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: he's critiquing at the beginning. It just doesn't really solve 310 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: the problem. You can always have people, yeah, you can 311 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: always have people taking advantage of the system, where I 312 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: think Moody at least has this sort of the theological 313 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: understanding and obviously you and I agree with this. It's 314 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: the right and understanding. Right, we need to be changed. 315 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: It's the people who are screwing things up. So until 316 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: we're transformed, nothing's really going to be set right one 317 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: hundred percent. 318 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a naive understanding of human nature. Now, 319 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: we can talk about humans being kind and generous, and 320 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: we can pull our anecdotes out and that's all true, 321 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: but human beings are also incredibly selfish, power hungry, cruel. 322 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 2: Anybody that's looked in the mirror and thought honestly about 323 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 2: their own life can find that they find the selfish 324 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: part of themselves, the cruel part of themselves, the power 325 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: hungry part of themselves, the egotistical part of themselves. And 326 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: simply doing away with classes doesn't fix that. I mean, 327 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 2: it's naive. If I can quote Peter Townsend from the 328 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: who you know, meet the new boss, same as the 329 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: old boss. We don't get fooled again. Well apparently we do. 330 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: This is, you know, take from the rich, give to 331 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 2: the poor till there ain't no rich no more. Now, 332 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be incentives and et cetera, 333 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: et cetera, to make things fair and to be as 334 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: just as possible, et cetera, et cetera. That's that's equally naive. 335 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: This notion that somehow the the the blind hand of 336 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 2: the market will drive all this, well, that's Bologne. We 337 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: saw that in in Rockefeller and Carnegie and the great 338 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: robber barons. The government finally had to pass antitrust laws, 339 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: we had to develop labor unions. Those were all necessary things. Why, 340 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: because of the nature of the human heart. So the 341 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: problem with Marx is exactly what you said. It is 342 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 2: utterly naive about what human beings are really like and 343 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: what the state can accomplish it. It's just incredibly naive. 344 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think there it's sort of saying, and 345 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: maybe I'll agree with this. I would say that the 346 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: and I don't mean this in the Old Testament law sense, 347 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: although it would encompass the Old Testament law. But I 348 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: would say the law and the Gospel do two different things, 349 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: you know. I go to that passage where Jesus is 350 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: challenged on divorce and the Pharisee asked him, so, why 351 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: if this was so bad, why didn't Moses tell us 352 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: to issue a certificate or divorce? And what does Jesus respond? 353 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: He says, it's because of the hardness of your heart 354 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: that Moses gave you that command. But I'm telling you 355 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: that from the beginning it was to be male and 356 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: female joined for life, one flesh. There's an ideal that 357 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: Jesus is affirming. But then there's also the reality of 358 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: the situation that the law is maintain managing right. And 359 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: so when we look at these systems, there's an important 360 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: aspect I think. I think it's actually really crucial of 361 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: this sinction. The Gospel transforms, the Gospel changes the human heart, 362 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: The Gospel regenerates us, recreates us. Law keeps us in check. Yeah, 363 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: and so law reveals certain things about God's order. It 364 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: gestures towards God's justice, It shows us, you know, sort 365 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: of where God's order draws lines, and it keeps us 366 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: in theory, in principle, it's supposed to keep us from 367 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: going across the lines that shouldn't be crossed. Right, So, 368 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: if you're going to get divorced, that's bad enough, but 369 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: then we also want you to make sure that you're 370 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: taking care of the woman that you just divorced. Largely 371 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: the purpose of a lot of those old Testament laws, 372 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: and I would argue that as we carry that forward 373 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: into national laws, we see very similar things. These are 374 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: not solutions, but they're not trivial sort of half measures either. 375 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: These are important systems and structures that we're putting in 376 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: place that need to adjust and make sure that the 377 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,239 Speaker 1: excesses of sin are being restrained. And I think that 378 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: as we're looking at something like a we know republican 379 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: democracy in the United States, and I don't mean republican 380 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: by the party, but republican by the philosophy. But we 381 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: see republican democracy in the United States, we see capitalism 382 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: in the United States, and then we compare that to 383 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: socialism with Marx. What we need to understand is they're 384 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: both doing something very similar. They're just approaching that in 385 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: very different ways, and each of them is going to 386 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: have their chinks in the armor that really have to 387 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: be dealt with. But ultimately, what Moody seems to be 388 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,239 Speaker 1: doing is saying, I'm going to look at it from 389 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: a theological reality. I'm going to be calling Christians to 390 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: the Gospel. I'm going to be calling non believers to 391 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: the Gospel, and then the Holy Spirit is going to 392 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: be working on them, and these things will adjust to 393 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: a certain degree. Arguably, I would say he's he's a 394 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: bit naive on that to a certain degree. Mood he 395 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: is he over He may over stretch or have a 396 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: greater optimism for how much can actually change simply through 397 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, Christian conversion. But at the same time he's 398 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: getting the problem rate and the solution rate. I think 399 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: he's just missing sort of more of a structural element. 400 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: We're on the Mark side. Marx is structuring, but he's 401 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: not really understanding the underlying problem and the deep solution 402 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: that needs to be there. 403 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's exactly right, James. I think I think 404 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, Marx fails to deal 405 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: with the fundamental problem. It's what Luther called the curve 406 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: of the self into the self. You know, it's this 407 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 2: human beings are fundamentally selfish, and it's just history is 408 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: replete with that. Again, just look in the mirror and 409 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: think about yourself. How much are you willing to give 410 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 2: away to somebody else? How much of what you worked 411 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: for are you willing to give to somebody else, even 412 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: if you're a believer. And you know, so, as we 413 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: talked before we were on the air, you know, a 414 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: lot of the New Testament was written as a result 415 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: of these sorts of strife, strife between Jews and Gentiles. 416 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: Why was the office of deacon created in the Book 417 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 2: of Acts. Well, you know, the more Palestinian Jews are 418 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: getting more than the Greek oriented Jews, so we have 419 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 2: to it's the same old stuff. And I just don't 420 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: think that the solution that Marx proposes works. It just doesn't. 421 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you've heard the old joke about the college 422 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 2: professor who gave out the exams to everybody, and when 423 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: they come back, everybody has the same grade, and they're 424 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: you know, hey, I you know this guy didn't even study. 425 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, you know, and he said, well, it's socialism. 426 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: Everybody gets the same and the you know, the class 427 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: goes up for But wait a minute, that's not right. 428 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: I worked more, I studied more. Sorry, that's just there's 429 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 2: a all. All these ideas are great on paper till 430 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 2: it's till it's hitting you. Yeah, you know, to abolish 431 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: private property, Okay, it's great, but you know it's not 432 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: just for the guy in the big house down the road. 433 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: It's for you and your little house. 434 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: That's right. 435 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: And what sounds great initially when you start to think 436 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 2: about it carefully, are you willing to work hard for 437 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: somebody else who is not willing to work hard. I 438 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 2: don't think human beings think that way. 439 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like we think that way. And I 440 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: think that is sort of an underlying problem with marks 441 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: we see it. You know, we shouldn't treat these systems 442 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: as that they're clean, like as as they're totally separate, right, 443 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: and so, you know, there are elements of socialism already 444 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: baked into our democracy. As capitalists as we are, we 445 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: have things like welfare to help people out. We have 446 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: things like unemployment to help people out, and those are 447 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: appropriate social programs that are you to be used to 448 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: help those who are down in their luck. They're having problems, 449 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, they can't get work, et cetera, et cetera. 450 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: And yet you know, we talk a lot about the 451 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: abuses of those programs, and the abuses we talk about 452 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: are really more related to things like all these people 453 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: just don't want to work, they're lazy, or they're what 454 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: have you. Now we talk about misappropriation funds and all 455 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: that other kind of fun stuff too, But the point 456 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: is we identify that basic aspect of what you're talking about. 457 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: There are some people who are who are giving welfare 458 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: two who could be working and they're not. That is 459 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: one of the basic fundamental arguments that it's always made. And 460 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: so even in our system, we are identifying that as 461 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: a problem. And it's a problem that you it's very 462 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: difficult to get around because even when you tell the 463 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: story about the teacher who gives all the students the 464 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: same grade, Right, maybe if he gives everybody an A, 465 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: that's all right, But I'm guys, seeing he doesn't. You 466 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: almost have to assume that everybody gets a C. Yep, 467 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: because when you're averaging these things out right, if somebody 468 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: else gets an F and you're borrowing from the A 469 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: to pull that up, you're going to hit a C. 470 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: And so now the person with the A gets to C, 471 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: the person with the F gets to CE, and the 472 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: person with the A is like, WHOA. I put way 473 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: more effort into this than a C effort. Hey, that's 474 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 1: just the way it is. And I think we're fundamentally 475 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: really opposed to that, in part because we're looking for 476 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: individual achievement. 477 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,959 Speaker 2: Yes, and I want to be quick to say it's 478 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 2: not fair to say that poverty is a result of laziness, 479 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 2: or even that most poverty is the result of laziness. Correct, 480 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 2: there certainly is, that is part of it. But there 481 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: are injustices in the system, and the system can be improved. 482 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 2: The question is is the improvement that Marx is providing 483 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 2: really an improvement. I think it's it just doesn't work. 484 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 2: It hasn't worked successfully anywhere in the world. Now. There 485 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 2: are a few people that will still do well. Christian 486 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 2: the early church was socialists. Look at acts, they had 487 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 2: all things in common. No, that's not what the text 488 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 2: says the Church did not come in and take all 489 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 2: their goods away from them. They chose to give their 490 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: goods and share them among each other. That's entirely different 491 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: than the state saying I'm going to take the vast 492 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: majority of the money you make, and I'm going to 493 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: equally distribute it to everybody. Moody would say the early 494 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 2: Church was behaving according to scripture because they were choosing 495 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 2: of their own will to love their neighbor and giving 496 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 2: it to support each other. That's not socialism. That's community charity. 497 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: That's what amish do. I mean, build a barn. Everybody, 498 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: go help build the barn. 499 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: That's right. And I think you see that distinction even 500 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: more clearly when you read Paul. You know Paul a 501 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: couple times and his letters talks about not muzzling the 502 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: oxen while it's treading grain. And yet Paul, in order 503 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: that the church would not be hindered by his request 504 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: for funds, foregoes the reception of those funds and works 505 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: a different job. And I think that that sort of 506 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: ethos is what the Christian community in early acts is 507 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: actually doing. It's saying like this, these things that we 508 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: have are not our own all. In some ways, they're 509 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: following Deuteronomy sixty five, right, love the Lord your God, 510 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: with all you are, with all you with with all 511 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength. Well, 512 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: that last word strength is ode and Hebrew it's the 513 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: same word that's translated very in the phrase very good 514 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: at the end of Genesis one. And so what you 515 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: have is this interesting like adverbial reference in Deuteronomy sixty five. 516 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: It probably refers to something like your muchness, like all 517 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: of your resources, that you have, all of your excess. 518 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: This is what goes to God. And so I think 519 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: that there's an interesting way in which that's what they're following. 520 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 1: But again we see that as sort of a theological motivation, 521 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: not a motivation that is demanded by a state, right, 522 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: And I think that there's there's a clear distinction in 523 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,439 Speaker 1: scripture between what you're Yeah, you know, the socialist sort 524 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: of tendency. Right, Yes, we should all choose to be 525 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: charitable to one another and care for one another in 526 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 1: community versus the state is going to tell us exactly 527 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: how to go about doing that exactly, that's yeah. And 528 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: so the one is Christianity, the other is socialism. And 529 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: to a large extent, Marxism. 530 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: Yes, clearly, the Bible teaches people of means have an 531 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 2: obligation to be charitable to those without, particularly those who 532 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,959 Speaker 2: are without through new fault of their own. Paul also says, 533 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 2: if you don't work, you should need and I understand 534 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: in a complex economy like ours, there are people that 535 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,240 Speaker 2: are wanting to work and they can't through no fault 536 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 2: of their own. That's not what he talking about, So 537 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 2: you know it, It seems to me that that is 538 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 2: that is what Paul is talking about. That is that 539 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 2: we are obligated to take care of each other as 540 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 2: long as we are all doing what God commands of us, 541 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 2: and that is to work to the extent that we 542 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 2: are able. To Let me. 543 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: Let me shift gears a little bit here because I'm 544 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: kind of interesting. I know you and Erwin wrote this together. 545 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: I'm wondering what the impetus for this was. Did you 546 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: know when you guys got together, did did you and 547 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: Erwin sort of talk about a little bit why now 548 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: for this book? 549 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, Irwin was the driver of this. This was his idea. 550 00:39:53,160 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 2: I think he was concerned about the rise of interest 551 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 2: in socialism and flat out communism in the United States, 552 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 2: and he felt like and believed that these two men 553 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 2: that were contemporaries, and by the way, Moody was frankly, 554 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 2: far more well known than Marx was when they were alive. 555 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 2: That's clearly been flipped. But Moody was virtually everybody in 556 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 2: the English speaking world knew who Dwight Moody was. They 557 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 2: you know, Karl Marx who. But he believed that these 558 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 2: two men who were contemporaries addressing the same problem from 559 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 2: radically different perspectives. That is frankly in play again. So 560 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 2: how are we to think about the world. So, you know, 561 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 2: Irwin did the section on Marx. I am not a 562 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 2: Marx guy. I'm given a large portion of my life 563 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 2: to Dwight Moody. And he knew that I had written 564 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 2: previously on Moody's social vision, so it was kind of 565 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 2: low hanging fruit for me to just pick this up. 566 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 2: So Irwin is the author and the researcher of the 567 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 2: first half on Marx. I did the section on Moody, 568 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 2: and the contrast should be clear and sharp for the reader. 569 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:41,359 Speaker 2: And then you know, pick one. That's the point one choice. 570 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,359 Speaker 2: What are you going to invest your life in how 571 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 2: are you going to see the world and so, and 572 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 2: this is where Erwin is a pastor and I'm an academic. 573 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: You know, he wants to bang and I need that. 574 00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 2: That's the application the challenge people the So at the 575 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 2: end of the day, that was the impetus for the book. Now, 576 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 2: I think the driving impetus was the you know, the 577 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 2: political climate in the United States, particularly right now. And 578 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 2: I don't engage in significant amounts of political analysis. And again, 579 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 2: him being a pastor, in me being an academic, we 580 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 2: are interested in somewhat different things. He sees things I don't. 581 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 2: So I think it was a concern for him about 582 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 2: what pastorally he was hearing, both in the country and 583 00:42:52,200 --> 00:43:01,479 Speaker 2: in the church about Marxism generally. That's I think that's 584 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,360 Speaker 2: a fair reading of the impetus. 585 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: James, Yeah, I think that's helpful. It accords with what 586 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: I read a little bit in chapter eight Democratic Socialism 587 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:19,399 Speaker 1: Marxist Marxism Light, which I assumed was a pastor looter chapter. Yes, 588 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: and you know, because you had told me you'd written 589 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: mostly on the You've written the Moody parts, you'd written 590 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: the Marxist parts, and and so I do think that 591 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: that's a It's an interesting problem that we're facing right 592 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: now in the United States because we are seeing more 593 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: socialists communists being elected are close to elected in a 594 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:46,720 Speaker 1: variety of states. Obviously the primary one is the gentleman 595 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: who was elected mayor in New York. Yes, Mom, Donnie, 596 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: and and you know, we're starting to see some of 597 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: these programs instituted the New York markets, for instance, the 598 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: state or the city funded markets that are you know, 599 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: cutting prices by a third. These are there's a sense 600 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: in which you can look at that and go interesting 601 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,399 Speaker 1: and and also really good. You know, hey, glad he's 602 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: helping people out. I think this is a you know, 603 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: it's a nice program, this is fantastic whatever, But we 604 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: very seldom read that as a whole system. I was 605 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: listening to a news program the other day where they 606 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: were talking about the New York bodegas who just weren't 607 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: going to be able to keep up on price and 608 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: we're going to suffer from competition with these city grocers, 609 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: and the gentleman on the democratic socialist side, uh basically said, well, 610 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: if you you know, if you can't make it in 611 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,839 Speaker 1: that business, maybe you shouldn't be in that business. It's like, well, 612 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: wait a minute, this the city the city grocers have 613 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: been you know, funded by millions of dollars in taxpayer 614 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,240 Speaker 1: money that you know, that's their business model. It's almost 615 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: an unfair advantage. It is an unfair advantage. And so 616 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,960 Speaker 1: you know, you've got all of these sort of things ruling, 617 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: and we're seeing them be promoted as these very simple 618 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: solutions to extremely complex problems. And I think for people 619 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: who haven't lived, you and I are old enough to 620 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: remember Fidel Castro's sort of at his zenith in Cuba. 621 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: We're old enough to remember the you know, the Berlin 622 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: Wall coming down, and you know, the abolishment of socialism 623 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: slash communism in eastern Germany. We're you know, I've got 624 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 1: a friend who grew up in communist Romania and has 625 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: told his story a number of times to me, which 626 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,399 Speaker 1: is just fantastic. Like, you know, he'd tell me get 627 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:51,759 Speaker 1: up in the morning, and he knew what he was 628 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: going to do that day. He was going to go 629 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,439 Speaker 1: wait four hours in a line. And when I asked 630 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,320 Speaker 1: him what he was waiting four hours for, he said, 631 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 1: whatever they had. He's like, it didn't or what you 632 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,359 Speaker 1: were waiting for you needed everything right, And I think 633 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: that we don't always have that sort of historical context, 634 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: especially younger generations, to look at these things and sit 635 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,840 Speaker 1: back and say, what have these things really wrought? And 636 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,120 Speaker 1: without demonizing one or the other, without saying, you know, 637 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: republican democracy never has any problems. Obviously that's not true. 638 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: But I think what we can say is that swapping systems. 639 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,799 Speaker 1: Kim and I came up with this analogy. When we'd 640 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: look at new jobs, we'd say, the grass is never greener. 641 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: The brown patches are just in different places, yes, And 642 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: so when we're switching these systems, the brown patches are 643 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: going to be in different places. And that, I think 644 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,840 Speaker 1: is it comes out well in the book. You know, 645 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,720 Speaker 1: when we talk about democratic socialism, it doesn't really feel 646 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: like the book has a democratic emphasis to it, right, Like, Hey, 647 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: we need to stick with the same system we've got. 648 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,439 Speaker 1: What it's trying to point to and gesture to is, look, 649 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: we've got the Gospel, We've got a theological reality we 650 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,360 Speaker 1: can play into, and these things are really crucial. Having 651 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: that theological understanding is really crucial to the way we 652 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 1: live life on this planet. 653 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 2: And I also wonder if the church had done its 654 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 2: job and was doing its job, how much of this 655 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 2: would have any traction. I was talking to a friend who, 656 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 2: you know is he just retired, but he was in finance, 657 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,359 Speaker 2: and he said, the you know, the problem is the 658 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 2: top ten percent is flourishing and when everybody else is struggling, 659 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:52,240 Speaker 2: these ideas get traction. He's absolutely correct. But what if 660 00:47:53,080 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 2: what if the evangelical church had fully adopted Moody's model, 661 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 2: that is, they were actively engaged, hands on in their communities, 662 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 2: providing social services. So what if the churches had significant 663 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:25,200 Speaker 2: food depositories. What if rich suburban churches were really in 664 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 2: full fellowship with poor urban churches and we're sending not 665 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 2: just money but brain power down to help community development. 666 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:44,279 Speaker 2: What if? What if? What if? You know, if we 667 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:50,319 Speaker 2: had done more of these things, would this have as 668 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,879 Speaker 2: much traction as it does? And my guess is it would. 669 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,560 Speaker 2: In fact, Frederick Ingles at one point said the reason 670 00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 2: communism didn't catch up in England is because of Moody's 671 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:12,240 Speaker 2: revivals in the Salvation Army. Well that's pretty telling. Yeah, 672 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 2: you know, when the church does what it's supposed to do, 673 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 2: then it is sult and light and it's eleven or 674 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 2: it's uh, you know it, it's sult and light and 675 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 2: and it has a positive impact on life in the community. 676 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,879 Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that the church can do all 677 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,040 Speaker 2: that needs to be done. I'm not opposed to you know, 678 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,600 Speaker 2: social security, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But we 679 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 2: certainly could do much more, especially if we cooperated to 680 00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:02,880 Speaker 2: build social programs into the community, after school programs, programs 681 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:14,680 Speaker 2: for people with disabilities, informal education of food banks, employment services, 682 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:22,360 Speaker 2: basic skill, life skill stuff. These are things that we 683 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,320 Speaker 2: could be doing, and not many churches do them. You 684 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:32,360 Speaker 2: just don't. And I think had we been better at that, 685 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:42,720 Speaker 2: evangelicalism would be perceived differently. One and two, I think 686 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the traction for this would be undercut. 687 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon. And the example I usually 688 00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,080 Speaker 1: give is rounding up at the grocery store. You'll go 689 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:02,960 Speaker 1: to the grocery store, you'll pay your groceries and maybe 690 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,239 Speaker 1: you've got fifteen cents left on your bill and get 691 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: up to a round number, and it's like, oh, would 692 00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,840 Speaker 1: you like to round up? And what I think is 693 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 1: happening in part is as we institute these social systems 694 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:20,240 Speaker 1: on a governmental level. It feels like rounding up is enough. 695 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 1: In other words, the government now is taking care of 696 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:25,880 Speaker 1: all that, and we don't really have to think about it. 697 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 1: It just comes out of my check. I don't really 698 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,440 Speaker 1: have any skin in the game to do this, whereas 699 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:36,359 Speaker 1: had we kept some of those things. This is something 700 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,480 Speaker 1: David Fitch argues in The Great Giveaway, which I think 701 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,920 Speaker 1: is fantastic. But as the Church gives away some of 702 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:48,319 Speaker 1: these things, we weren't cognizant of the downstream effects, just 703 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,920 Speaker 1: the formative effects of what that does to the Christian mind, 704 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 1: what that does to the Christian world view, for lack 705 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: of a better term, how we imagine the world around us. 706 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: It's like, now all this stuff gets supported over to 707 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,840 Speaker 1: the government, and the church really is just where we 708 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: get together and sing a few hymns. It's not quite 709 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,920 Speaker 1: that stark, but it certainly trends that way. And I 710 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,520 Speaker 1: think that you know, the argument you're making is sound. 711 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,760 Speaker 1: It's we needed those things, We needed to do those things. 712 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,680 Speaker 1: We need to engage in those things, not because we're 713 00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,359 Speaker 1: trying to fix society primarily, but because these are constitutive 714 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,319 Speaker 1: of who we are as Christians. This is part of 715 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 1: what it means to be the church. 716 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:33,399 Speaker 2: And they are commanded activities by God. It's a simple obedience. 717 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,080 Speaker 2: That's how Moody saw it. Yeah, well, why are we 718 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,600 Speaker 2: having this conversation. You know, the guy's poor, Let's figure 719 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 2: out a way to fix it. I mean, haven't you 720 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,719 Speaker 2: read your Bible recently. That's kind of the way he 721 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,359 Speaker 2: would go at those things. Yeah. 722 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:57,040 Speaker 1: So well, it's a fascinating book. It's a fascinating contrast. 723 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,440 Speaker 1: I think, you know, again, Moody, he's sort of and 724 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: I've found this as I've studied Moody and interact with 725 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,839 Speaker 1: Moody across his life. He's got a real earthiness to him. Yes, right, 726 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,320 Speaker 1: he's sort of in the grind. He's very seldom outside 727 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: of the labor you know, everything from working in Civil 728 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,239 Speaker 1: War camps, you know, among the wounded, you know, to 729 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: rebuilding after the Chicago fire. You get this sense about 730 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: the man that he is just in the mess all 731 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: the time, yep. Versus what we see in Marx, which 732 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: he is an academic trying to think these things through, 733 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,799 Speaker 1: but very much disconnected. And I think this is some 734 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,400 Speaker 1: of the things that the pastor Lutter really helps clarify 735 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,480 Speaker 1: in the book, this is a guy who has wealthy 736 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,200 Speaker 1: patrons helping him to get through school, like he's not 737 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:50,919 Speaker 1: he's not getting his hands that dirty. You know, he's 738 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,759 Speaker 1: really pining. This guy thinking these things through and not 739 00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:59,400 Speaker 1: really getting a whole lot of insight from a practical 740 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,080 Speaker 1: standpoint of actually working with the people on the ground. 741 00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 1: And I think that is one of those real fundamental 742 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,920 Speaker 1: distinctions between Marx and Moody, is that Moody is doing 743 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: it and maybe needed to reflect a little more. Like 744 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,880 Speaker 1: we had the conversation with Mark Noll about you know, 745 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: sort of this bottom up revolution and you know, the 746 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,440 Speaker 1: grassroots sort of a lame and approach that Moody really exemplifies, 747 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,640 Speaker 1: and how that was lacking some intellectual rigor. And it's 748 00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:32,080 Speaker 1: fair enough, but at the same time, you know, you 749 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,200 Speaker 1: can't have all intellectual rigor and no connection to the ground. 750 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:37,920 Speaker 1: And I think you know what we're talking about is 751 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 1: this spectrum and Marks and Moody just really highlight that aspect. 752 00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:47,640 Speaker 1: So love the contrast. Love the book came out yesterday, 753 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,800 Speaker 1: so it's probably starting to sell like hotcakes and excited 754 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,359 Speaker 1: for you guys, and see how this goes and really 755 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,880 Speaker 1: appreciate again Greg you coming on and talking through Moody 756 00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:59,920 Speaker 1: and the church and a little bit of Marx. 757 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,800 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me go buy a book. 758 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and once again we'll put the I'll put the 759 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 1: link to the book in the show notes. But once again, 760 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,160 Speaker 1: the name of the book is Marx and Moody. It's 761 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,200 Speaker 1: written by Greg Quiggle and doctor Irwin Lutzer. And the title, 762 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,600 Speaker 1: the full title is Marx and Moody, Two Contemporaries, two Gospels, 763 00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:26,560 Speaker 1: two Tombstones, one choice. It's it's out on Amazon and 764 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,879 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are places, but we'll shoot a link 765 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,040 Speaker 1: in the show notes, so i'd encourage you to go 766 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,319 Speaker 1: get the book. Very good, Greg, you did fantastic Jawa 767 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 1: Moody as always, and should also reference your other book, 768 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,640 Speaker 1: Bread and Bibles. You know you do have two of these, Yeah. 769 00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you if you want a more detailed look 770 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:51,440 Speaker 2: at how Moody understood the relationship between evangelism and serving 771 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:56,799 Speaker 2: the poor, I did a previous book also with Moody Publishers, 772 00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,720 Speaker 2: entitled Bread and Bibles, and it's about evangelism and social 773 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,799 Speaker 2: work and how mister Moody understood that the things that 774 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:11,120 Speaker 2: influenced his thought on these subjects, and then lots of 775 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 2: things Moody did. People have no idea. They think he 776 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,719 Speaker 2: was just an evangelist. That's absolutely not true. He was 777 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:22,040 Speaker 2: an educator, He was involved in practically feeding the poor, 778 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,359 Speaker 2: getting people jobs, kind of on and on and on. 779 00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,879 Speaker 2: So yeah, give it a read. 780 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:30,919 Speaker 1: We'll link. We'll link to that one in the show 781 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,160 Speaker 1: notes as well, everybody. So I just encourage you to 782 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,920 Speaker 1: pick up both Bred and Bibles. Is great overview of 783 00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 1: really an in depth treatment of deal Moody's social vision 784 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,680 Speaker 1: and then you have Marx and Moody that won't disappoint. 785 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,440 Speaker 1: You'll enjoy reading this and it does give you a 786 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,680 Speaker 1: completely different perspective on the theological challenges that we're facing 787 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,680 Speaker 1: right now. So I always enjoy a good Quiggle Looser 788 00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,640 Speaker 1: team up, and maybe we'll see more of these in 789 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: the future, hopefully. Very good. Well, thanks again man for 790 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,440 Speaker 1: being here, and thanks everybody for listening. We'll catch you 791 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,640 Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I 792 00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:10,239 Speaker 1: just want to take a second to thank the team 793 00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,600 Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the 794 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,839 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 795 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,080 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 796 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.