1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hy Everyone, Welcome to this 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: joined again by doctor Gary Edward Schnitger, and we're going 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: to be talking about his book Old Testament Use of 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: Old Testament in Parallel Layout that's coming out later this year. 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: It's going to be a multi volume work. The first 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: one is on tour and the profits and these are 15 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: coming out of Zondervan Academic. But what we really are 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: going to start discussing today on a more basic level 17 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: is when we talk about the Old Testament use of 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: the Old Testament, a lot of our minds might just 19 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: go to straight quotes of previous Old Testament texts, but 20 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: that's not quite all there. 21 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: Is. 22 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: And so what we want to start by talking through 23 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: is what's the role of things like illusions in the 24 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: use of the Old Testament and how does that even work? 25 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: How do we identify them, how should we think about them, 26 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: and how should we think through them. So with all 27 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: that said, Gary, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks so 28 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: much for being here, and thanks for your work on this. 29 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: I really appreciated reading through it. 30 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: H James, I'm thrilled to be here on this. This 31 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: is my favorite thing to talk about, so thanks for 32 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: having me on. 33 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 3: Amazing. Well, let's dive in a little bit. 34 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: You know, like I said, I think most of the 35 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,639 Speaker 1: time when I talk to people or when I'm teaching 36 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: students and we talk about the Old Testament use of 37 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: the Old Testament, they automatically go to quotations, which isn't crazy, 38 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: It's just. 39 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: Sort of the tip of the iceberg. 40 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: So would how would you explain some of the other 41 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: things that we should be looking for in the Old Testament, 42 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: How do identify them, how to define them? 43 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: Like? 44 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want that did you study with Richard Schultz? 45 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 3: I did? Yeah, I had him at Wheaton. 46 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean he one of the important things that 47 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: he did in his research is he got it the 48 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 2: idea of purposeful or intentionality. And so that's the watershed 49 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: is between an illusion and I'm going to use the 50 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: word illusion as an umbrella. It includes quotation, it includes paraphrase, 51 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: and it includes lesser evoking of the text, but it's 52 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: purposeful and there's it's not just purposeful, but there's evidence 53 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: that it's purposeful. And so the dividing line, then an 54 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 2: echo means there's something similar. It might be a just 55 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 2: a stock phrase or a figure of speech, but there's 56 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: not evidence. We're not sure if it's intentional or not intentional. 57 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: So an illusion, inclusive of power, phrase and quotation, it's 58 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: on purpose and we can we can tell that, and 59 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 2: I think that maybe one of the things that it's 60 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: good to get out of the way right away. I 61 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: work on interpretive illusions, and again that's inclusive of quotation 62 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 2: and paraphrase. Interpretive illusions have to have three things. There 63 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: has to be an identifiable donor text that's the one 64 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: that is the older cited text that donates the idea, 65 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: and then an identifiable receptor text that is a text 66 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: a later biblical text that's citing the earlier text. And 67 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: then there needs to be some kind of identifiable interpretive outcome, 68 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: and that's where we know that there's an intentionality, and 69 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: so right away then you can see if there's an 70 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: interpretive outcome that means it's more than just quoting. And 71 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: I think that well, in the New Testament, there's plenty 72 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: of quotations. In the Old Testament, there's less quotations. And 73 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: what a lot of Bible readers get troubled by is 74 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: when they don't use the exact words. But when a 75 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 2: later biblical author is alluding to an earlier biblical writing, 76 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: they're probably not going to use the same exact words. 77 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: The whole point of alluding to it is to move 78 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: things forward, what I would call advancement of revelation at 79 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: that point. 80 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you don't have to use the exact same words. 81 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: No, And I think that that's kind of a modern 82 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: expectation that we bring to the text that kind of 83 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: messes us up. In our hermaeneutics, we wound up arguing 84 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: about the wrong thing most of the time when we're 85 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 2: worried about why did the words change? In the ancient world, 86 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 2: you know, they know what the original authoritative text said. 87 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: The whole point of working with it is to they're 88 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: trying to the bib of authors are trying to say 89 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: something new, but they want to say it through this traditional, 90 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: authoritative discourse that God has given previously. 91 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: When you think about identifying these interpretive illusions, and I 92 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: appreciate your sort of threefold framework, I think about something 93 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: like I had a discussion here recently about the early 94 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: chapters of Genesis, Genesis one through let's call it five, 95 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: And you have the use of the image of God 96 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: language in. 97 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 3: Genesis one, and then you also have the use of. 98 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: That language, very similar use of that language when it's 99 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: talking about Seth and the genealogy, and he's made in 100 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: the image of Adam, who was in turn made in 101 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: the image of God. And the discussion I was having 102 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: was whether that has interpretive significance, how that might relate 103 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 1: to things like the firstborn sort of gard I'm within 104 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: the narrative of Genesis itself. You know, what does this 105 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: do for the line of Cain. And is this at 106 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: all suggesting sort of that weird historical argument of only 107 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: this line was made in the image of God and 108 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: no other line. Now I have a very particular understanding 109 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: of that, but one of the things I argued. 110 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 3: Was, look, it didn't have to be said. 111 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: Like this was included, and it's included as an obvious 112 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: callback to Genesis one. Didn't actually have to be There 113 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: was no reason to make this particular point at this 114 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: particular moment if it doesn't mean something else. Is that 115 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: part of Does that line of logic, that way of 116 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,239 Speaker 1: seeing it, Does that conform to sort of those three 117 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: points that you've provided there. 118 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a good example. And I actually 119 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: call that an interpretive blend because in Genesis five and 120 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: let's there's an intry on that in my book, there's 121 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: a blending together of a passage from what we call 122 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: Genesis one with a passage from what we call Genesis two. 123 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: So it's an interpretive blend. There's a little quotations or illusions, 124 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: and we can identify specifically what words in the donor 125 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: text and how it's been morphed by laying them out 126 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: side by side. And so one of the interpretive outcomes 127 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: there just in the immediate is you've alluded to it. 128 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: But the idea that we ask a question a lot 129 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: of times, what does it mean to be created in 130 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: the image of God? Right? What is that all about? 131 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: And we have all these discussions, and most of the 132 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: answers have been horrible, and the history of this discussion agreed. 133 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: Genesis by answer is right. If Seth is in the 134 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: image and likeness of Adam, and Adam is in the 135 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: image and likeness of God, then Adam is a son 136 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: of God. So I mean, whether we get into the 137 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: firstborn or whether we worry about the other line or not, 138 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: we can at least begin to nail down to be 139 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: created in the image of God is to be a 140 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: son of God. And you know, Genesis one, of course 141 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: pulls up some things about that dominion and so forth. 142 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 2: But so that's in the illusion that the biblical author 143 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: makes in the Book of Genesis to earlier authoritative passages 144 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 2: in the Book of Genesis. So the donor text are 145 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: Genesis one and two, receptor textas Genesis five, and interpretive 146 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: outcomes at least include sort of spinning out what it 147 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: means to be created in the image of God. 148 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: I like that a lot at least includes because I 149 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: think that we can we argue about the rest, we 150 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: argue about the rest, But I also think that that 151 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: it does set a constraint and limit and a recognition 152 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: that hey, look, this text is actually doing something. It 153 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: really is doing something, and it's at least doing this something. 154 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: Now what else it might be doing. That's where all 155 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: these other factors that we would see in the narrative 156 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: have to come into play. And that's where some of 157 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: the more interpretive, maybe creative interpretive work could begin. But 158 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: that isn't necessarily entailed in this specific illusion in and 159 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: of itself. 160 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 3: But there is a kernel that is there no matter what, right, 161 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 3: And I. 162 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 2: Think that that's kind of an important point that what 163 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: maybe hasn't been done well enough is I think we 164 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 2: want to jump off into the exe Jesus and the 165 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: theology so quickly, yeah, and the thematic But what we 166 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: maybe need to pause and do just a little bit 167 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: more is actually get our hands dirty in comparing you know, 168 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 2: why is the tense this word different? Why are these 169 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: two things blended? Why is the prepositional phrase? And start 170 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: with the mechanics of what the biblical authors themselves are doing, 171 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: and then we can run there's nothing wrong with us 172 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: making modern interpretations, but I guess my work has been 173 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 2: pained on. Now let's pause and listen to the Biblical 174 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: authors first, let them be our teachers and guides, and 175 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: then we can do some of our extrapolations. You know. 176 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: I know we're going to move into the New Testament 177 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: next time in a future episode, so we're not dealing 178 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: with the New Testament here, but just for comparison's sake, 179 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: you know, I, like you probably took Greek and Hebrew 180 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: coming through seminary and through my PhD studies. What I 181 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: found the difference was, and I think the reason I 182 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: gravitated towards Hebrew was that it has more of an 183 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: openness to it. There isn't a strict logic in the 184 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: same way that you find in Greek. That there's a 185 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: much more rigid is probably too harsh a word, but 186 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: a much more structured, you know, sort of grammatical connections 187 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: between various things in a Greek text versus Hebrew, which 188 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: has a fluidity to it that isn't as tied to 189 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: tense and aspect and syntax, you know, all those different 190 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: kind of pieces that you'd find in grammar. 191 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 3: It almost opens itself. 192 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: Up more to an illusion based sort of textuality across 193 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: the Old Testament. I guess I'm wondering if that insight 194 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: rings true to you or how you correct that or 195 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: you know is that you've worked in both, and so 196 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: I'm just interested to understand your take on the difference. 197 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 2: Well, I think you're certainly right that the nature of 198 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: Hebrew is so much different in the grammar and syntax 199 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 2: that it opens itself to a different kind of illusions. 200 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: But I would think, probably James, that the whole idea 201 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 2: of alluding and making these connections, it's probably just natural 202 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 2: and literary. So I don't think that that part's necessarily different. 203 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: But the mechanics of how the New Testament within the 204 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: context of the Second Temple situation and all the complications 205 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: of describle cultures that are going on that time, that's 206 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: going to set it apart from the more in house 207 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: Hebrew Torah and Hebrew prophets and Hebrew poetry and Hebrew narratives. 208 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 2: That's a little bit more all on the same page 209 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: as far as the literary elements go. So there's a 210 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: different dynamic maybe to the kind of illusions we're going 211 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: to sit in the Old Testament, and there's an easy 212 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 2: move between those. That is, there's there's not a real 213 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 2: sense that when we read the prophets they talk about 214 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: Torah and you talk about God's covenant. But they're not 215 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: hung up on kind of explaining and getting down and 216 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: dirty into the details of Tora. They take it for 217 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: granted that they're that's not the problem. Their readers don't 218 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 2: not know what tour is. They don't obey what Tora is. 219 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: That that's the deeper issue. So they're pushing literarily against 220 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: the will of the readers so that the prophet even 221 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: might so let's say, weaponize Torah. So a really good 222 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: example of this is Amos where he talks about, you know, 223 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 2: he makes a playoff of you know, once people get 224 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: into the land, they're in Deuteronomy fourteen, Deuteronomy twenty six, 225 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 2: they only have to bring their tithes and offerings once 226 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: every three years because it's inconvenient, if you will, and 227 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: so they can kind of boil it down to silver 228 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: and then bring it back to sacrifices when they get there. Well, 229 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: Amos taunts his temple going northern constituents and says, go ahead, 230 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: bring your sacrifices and your tithes every three days, and 231 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: so you have this sort of mocking play. So there's 232 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: an illusion to Torah, but he's not like trying to 233 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: explain the mechanics of it. All right, he thinks that 234 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: the problem lies elsewhere with these conngregants who have you know, 235 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: they're interested in religion for their own purposes, not for gods. 236 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, interesting, that's helpful, And I think it sort 237 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: of leads us into some of your comments related to 238 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: maybe progressive revelation. You've already kind of alluded to this 239 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: in your earlier comments, like how these illusions actually work 240 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: and why they wouldn't necesscessarily have to be or even 241 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: why quoting wouldn't necessarily serve this aspect of an expanded 242 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: an expansion of Torah, a faithful expansion of Torah within 243 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: a given scenario that a later author may be writing about. 244 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that in this field now, since 245 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 2: I've been talking about it for these past number of years, 246 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: more and more people are warming up to progressive revelation. 247 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: But this is not the way we used to look 248 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: at it, if you will. So this is more of 249 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: a newer and especially something that I've been pushing is 250 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: that we do look at the advancement of revelation, and 251 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: so there is actually and I actually prefer the word 252 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: advancement better because it's more directed towards the Gospel of Christ. 253 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 2: Like this is all going for. There's a direction. It's 254 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: not just progressive in all sorts of directions. Yeah, but 255 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: I think that what we're what we need to get 256 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: out here then is there's uh maybe one way I said, 257 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: if we look at the genre of say laws, we 258 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: tend to think of them as sometimes wrongly, as as 259 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: though they're static, as though they are these inert things. 260 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: But the Lord doesn't say when people complain about these 261 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: things to him, he doesn't say I spoke, don't don't, 262 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: don't talk to me about that. Just read the Bible. 263 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: We find the Lord making adjustments with uh Torah. And 264 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: even the whole idea of a prophet like Moses is 265 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: one who is going to teach and preach in accord 266 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: with Torah. And so there's there's room. As Israel's messy 267 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 2: history goes from this to that to the next situation, 268 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 2: from rights slaves to wanderers to settlers to kingdom builders 269 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 2: to exile to people that return that are part of 270 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 2: the empire and a really small province. All those changes 271 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: require adjustments to how the teachings function, and so there's 272 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: there's lots of room for the prophets to follow in 273 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 2: the footsteps of Moses, who follows in the footsteps of 274 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: the Lord who tweaks Torah, and the Lord not even 275 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: shy about tweaking his own tweaks. When we think about it, 276 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 2: for us that that takes a moment, and it takes 277 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 2: our breath away, because we're like, well, wait, wait, wait, 278 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 2: the Word of God stands forever. Wait, it's authoritati if 279 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: you can't just change it, well, yeah, but there is 280 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 2: a a progressive revelation, a forward motion, a redemptive direction, 281 00:17:54,480 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 2: if you will. And we see that there's this Bible's 282 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: interpretation of the Bible is moving in this redemptive direction. 283 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 2: It's not just change for change's sake, so to speak. 284 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 3: It's interesting. 285 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: There's a and I'm blanking on the gentleman's name, but 286 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: there's a scientific theory that deals with something akin to this, 287 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: but in the scientific field. 288 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 3: And what he. 289 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: Posits is that there's a hardcore of truth that doesn't change. 290 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: That this is the underlying I think he uses the 291 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: word principle, which I'm not real wild on, but it 292 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: gets at the idea it's this unchanging kernel that it's 293 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: not going to move. And then what he calls a 294 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: protective belt around that. And this protective belt is a 295 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: set of hypotheses and theories and operations and you know. 296 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 3: Situations right that are sort of malleable. 297 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: But what never changes is this hardcore truth in the middle. 298 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: And it just strikes me that what you're explaining is 299 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: very similar to that so much as the underlying core 300 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: of Israelite faith, of our faith doesn't change. 301 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: But there's a whole lot outside there. 302 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: You know, in the protective belt sort of area of it, 303 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: that can move around. Because the world is changing, time 304 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: is going by, we have to adapt to these new situations, 305 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: and and there's an adaptivity to being in that protective 306 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: belt so long as it's still reflecting the hardcore commitment 307 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: in the center. 308 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so an example might help since we're I don't 309 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 2: know the name of that scientists either, but the these 310 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 2: things can be ethereal if you think all the way 311 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: at the maybe the end of the story here, and 312 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,479 Speaker 2: you have Nehemiah who's the governor of Jerusalem, and one 313 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: of the big problems he runs into is the Sabbath breakers. 314 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 2: Well he's he's like the governor, he has power he's 315 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: the one who's friends with the king of Persia, but 316 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: he's not bringing capital charges against the Sabbath breakers. He's 317 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: trying to persuade them. So in other wards, the truth 318 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 2: of the holiness of God and setting aside holy worship 319 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: to God, that hasn't changed. That's still one of the 320 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: covenantal elements of their relationship with God. But what has 321 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 2: changed is it's no longer a capital crime, it's no 322 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: longer a criminal law, and so kind of we can say, wow, well, 323 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: this is an innovation, this is a contradiction. Well, it's 324 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: probably not a contradiction when we look at sort of 325 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: Neemiah's allusions back to Amos in chapter eight there, I 326 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: think it is where he's talking kind of making fun 327 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 2: of them, you're excited for Sabbath to be over so 328 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 2: you can go merchandise again. Or the more specific illusion 329 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 2: that we see in chapter thirteen of Nehemiah is from 330 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: Jeremiah chapter seventeen, where Jeremiah says, if you keep bringing 331 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: your burdens through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, 332 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: the Lord's going to bring his wrath against you. So 333 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: then we could say, well, wait, where did Amos, where 334 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 2: did Jeremiah have the audacity to tweak the Ten Commandments? 335 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 2: This is one of the top ten. Excuse me, I'll 336 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: get in trouble from my school if I say, oh, 337 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: I need a cigarette right now. It sounds we are 338 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 2: up in the north. But I mean, I know you 339 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: did your dissertation on the ten Commandments, and so it's 340 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: not that Amos and Jeremiah doing something that's completely outside 341 00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: the box. The Sabbath command is tweaked inside the Ten 342 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: Commandments in Deuteronomy five. Yeah, and so there's there is that. 343 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: I guess you would say that something that doesn't change, 344 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 2: like we're not gonna you know, adult tooth is wrong 345 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 2: all the way. You know, you don't need any tweaking 346 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: of that. But the circumstances of Israel changed dramatically, and 347 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: so even one of the top ten commandments winds up 348 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: being repeatedly tweaked as we go across time, from the 349 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: time that it's given on Mount Sinai, throughout the history 350 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: of Israel and the Old Testament. 351 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 3: And I would even I think that's a really helpful example. 352 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: As I was reading through your work, I was thinking 353 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: to myself, this gets even more complex and narratives, you know, 354 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: with the one that came to mind was am Non 355 00:22:54,640 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: and when he rapes absolom sister and David nothing about it, 356 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, Absolom is sort of 357 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: jockeying for David's position after he kills Amnon. And this 358 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: is not framed as a cautionary tale against David. What 359 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: it really seems like it's a cautionary tale against the 360 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: way Absolum responds to this situation, you know. 361 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 3: And so even within the narrative, you have this thing. 362 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: Where it's like, well, the king is really in a 363 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: very deep way withholding justice, but that is in no way, 364 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: shape or form the focus of that narrative. And the 365 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: very best I would argue, it's sort of background. Right, 366 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: David may not have made the right choice there, but 367 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: it's not the one that's highlighted as the problem. And 368 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: so you have all these sort of narratives that obviously 369 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 1: use the law as a background, even though it's not explicit, 370 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: they're there. It's part of that sort of narrative context. 371 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: But ultimately you see these different scenarios playing themselves out 372 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: and within that narrative situation, And so I don't know 373 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: whether i'd count that it necessarily as illusion, but I 374 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: find it fascinating to think through as we just think 375 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: about how that works from you know, Old Testament use 376 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: of the Old Testament. These things are in the ether, 377 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: and those are probably less intentional than some of the 378 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: the case of Sabbath that you just named, But I 379 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: do think it's interesting to think through, like as we're 380 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: considering how that law gets adapted, the stories themselves suggest 381 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: the adaptations. 382 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and there you have. You know, it's boy, 383 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: it's complicent. I want to make sure I don't say 384 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: the wrong thing, but you have in Deuteronomy twenty two, 385 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 2: you have these series of rape laws. 386 00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, but what. 387 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: The Aminen's story at least shows, and it's not an 388 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 2: exegesus of the rape lause, but it does show how 389 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: distorted and perverse someone's perspective can be. Because he's the 390 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 2: narrative us the word he seizes her. So that's the 391 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: very language that is used in Deudonomy twenty two that 392 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 2: we would say that's rape and it can never be justified. 393 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 2: But then Amin's trying to kind of romance his sister, 394 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: and so you have this then insight that we might 395 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 2: not get in Deuteronomy twenty two, but we get that 396 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 2: there are perverse thoughts that a rapist has, and the 397 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: rapists might not be thinking I'm going to rape this person. 398 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: The rapist might actually between a wu in this case, 399 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 2: it's not really quite like a modern date rape. But yeah, 400 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: so the larger story, though, you're right, is this is 401 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 2: all just the bigger story where they're moving between when 402 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: David is top Jerusalem looking at someone else's wife and 403 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 2: where the story's going is one of the most iconic 404 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: moments in all of the Book of Samuel, where out 405 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: in exile David's high top a different city crying out 406 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: absolute my son, my son, absolum oh that I would 407 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 2: have died, but you would have lived, Absolute my son. 408 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 2: So you have this very literary presentation which is not 409 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 2: at all It's a good example because it's not at 410 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: all stopping and saying, well, let's think through the mechanics 411 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: of rape. Well, yeah, there is a rape here, and 412 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 2: it's very serious, but it's part of a much more 413 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: complex story with these terrible moving parts that maybe all 414 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 2: started when David is raping someone else's wife it turns 415 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: out to be his friend. 416 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: And I actually think that's crucial to the word you 417 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: use complexity. Complex The Bible isn't working in simple paradigms, 418 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: and so as it's narrating, as it's prophesying into these situations, 419 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: these are not simple cause and effect usually problems, there 420 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: is some complexity to them, and I think that's part 421 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: of why you see these adaptations. They're almost like, as 422 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: you put it, they're advancing towards something, but they're also 423 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: applying these laws within a context, and so they are 424 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: doing really I think deep interpretive work of the Torah 425 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: to give it sufficient teeth within the setting that they're 426 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:00,239 Speaker 1: using it in. 427 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 3: If that makes sense. 428 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. And I think that you know, you 429 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: and I when we gather with church folks in a 430 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 2: Bible study or in a Sunday morning discussion, a lot 431 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: of times we take things what's right and what's wrong? 432 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: Is this character good or is this character bad? But 433 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: that doesn't have much to do with real life. And 434 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 2: so if we like take a short story like Ruth, 435 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 2: all of the sort of the Torah illusions in that 436 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: book are complicated, and they're very embedded in this story, 437 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: so much embedded that many many readers just read it 438 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: as a type of Christ or something like this, and 439 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: don't even bother with getting their hands messy with the Covenant. 440 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 2: But you find a really complex situation is there at 441 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: the city gate when Bolas talks of this unnamed financially 442 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 2: responsible relation. Yeah, and they talk about, you know, keeping 443 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 2: his name alive. Are they going to keep the name 444 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 2: of the dead alive? Well, that is going to bring 445 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 2: in both the love inheritance from numbers twenty seven, but 446 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,239 Speaker 2: it also brings up from Deuteronomy twenty five the law 447 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,239 Speaker 2: of lever a marriage yep. And it's more complex than 448 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: that because there's also the redemption of Naomi's field, and 449 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 2: so that's now we're in Leviticus twenty five. But then 450 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 2: one of the key things that comes up in the chapter, 451 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 2: besides all of this going on between these different laws 452 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: that they're navigating simultaneously, is it's when bo As mentions, oh, yeah, 453 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: by the way, she's a moa Bidas. It's like, right, 454 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: then if more Bible well like, And we don't know 455 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 2: if the unnamed financially responsible near relation knew his Bible well, 456 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: but if he did, he would be thinking, oh, well, 457 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: you don't one on me twenty three says, thou shalt not 458 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: be kind to Mobites. Yeah, and he knows that's illegal, 459 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: and so all of a sudden he's like, well, I 460 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: don't want to jeopardize my inheritance, is what he says? 461 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: What does he mean by that? Does he mean like, 462 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: because Mobites are not welcome into the assembly of yahweh? 463 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: So is that what he means, which then is pushing 464 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: us really towards the big finish of the book. Right, 465 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: he did his maternal one of his the matriarchs of 466 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: David fourth generation is a Mobiite. So then we're left 467 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: as readers of the book saying, wait, if Mobiites are 468 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 2: excluded forever, then what about the dividic covenant? 469 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 3: Right? 470 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 2: What's happening? Right, all of a sudden, this this fun 471 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: story about this romance between this older gentleman and his uh, 472 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: you know, this woman from foreign land. All of a 473 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 2: sudden it takes on all these covenantal dimensions because the 474 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: dividic Covenant is in jeopardy, the Gospel is in jeopardy 475 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: because of Torah. That's complicated. 476 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think the impetus is to allow 477 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: that story to degenerate and to say nope, it can't 478 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: mean that because this dudonimistic law precludes us being nice 479 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: to Moabites. The better way to read it is to say, huh, 480 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: there must be something underneath this law and Deuteronomy that 481 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm missing. Yeah, there must be something deeper there that 482 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: I'm just not quite getting in that context. And now 483 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: I need to go back and understand that a little 484 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: differently and exactly right, right, because as. 485 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 3: This advance is, what it's showing us is. 486 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: That God's loyalty is covenant love extends well beyond Israelites, 487 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: even to those who were previously precluded. 488 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: And this is something that when we go back to 489 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 2: chapter two of Ruth to the Fields, where Boas is 490 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 2: reasoning this out right, he can't give Ruth the rights 491 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 2: of gleaning because that's for residing foreigners and it's. 492 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 3: Not for Mobites, right. 493 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: It's absolutely now, And like his his his guy that's 494 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 2: working for him says, the word mobite is you seven 495 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: times in the book, and the word mobitis is you 496 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 2: seven times? All right, so yeah, twice it's used in 497 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 2: one verse. So Boa shows up says, who is that? 498 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: His worker says, that's the Mobiitis from mo app It's like, oh, 499 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: rely that mobid it's one from mo app good to know, 500 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: and so it's over the top. But then as Ruth 501 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 2: is calling herself, I'm a foreigner, she uses that there's 502 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 2: different words for foreigner, but she uses the excluded language. 503 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 2: But then Boa says, wait, wait, wait, I've heard about 504 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: what you've done, and when you've done it, you've placed 505 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 2: yourselves under the wings of yahweh, And so bo As 506 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: grants her the rights of gleaning. He treats her like 507 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: a somebody who can assimilate, like a gear, a residing 508 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: foreigner that can assimilate. And then we learn even more 509 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: when your works top in the middle of the night, 510 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 2: you know, a few weeks later, and it's like who 511 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: are you? And Ruth says, oh, put your wing over me, right, 512 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 2: And so his prayer of using that language, he ends 513 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: up answering his own prayer in a sense when she 514 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 2: proposes marriage to him. And all that pushes us back 515 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: to when she said to Naomi, your God is my god, 516 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 2: your people are my people. We realize, okay, not all 517 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: Mobites are Mobites, right, So it's easy for us, as 518 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: you said, to say, thou shalt not be kind to Moabites. 519 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 2: But in the Bible, all the different interpretations of that law, 520 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: it's never interpreted as an ethnic or a rarail law. 521 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 2: It's always interpreted symbolically, and so it doesn't even apply 522 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: to mobites in many cases as its right. So the 523 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: narrative that the law plays off of, right, going back 524 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 2: to the nasty mobites in the wilderness who mistreated Israel, 525 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 2: that's a symbolic narrative that shows the kind of people 526 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 2: that are always excluded, the enemies of Israel. 527 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a It's an entire book that I think 528 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: illustrates the point that there is an advancing revelation here 529 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: and how whatever confusion we may have about something like 530 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: God desires mercy, not sacrifice, right, and it's like, well, 531 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: why did he give us all these sacrificial laws? Then, 532 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, like Ruth encapsulates this entire tension within it 533 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: because it's not supposed to happen if we read the 534 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: law as precluding into perpetuity, if we understand it as 535 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: the actual exclusion of a people group, not something deeper 536 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: there that in the context is being warned against. But 537 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,399 Speaker 1: now as this woman Ruth, you know, pledges herself to this, 538 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: her mother in law, takes on her gods as her 539 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: own god. Now you are in a very different context, 540 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: and Boaz is the one who recognizes this. He sees 541 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: it and acts on it, even despite it almost encapsulates. 542 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,959 Speaker 1: We might say, what it means to have mercy rather 543 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: than sacrifice? 544 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And I think that you know what 545 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 2: what I try to do with my students, and I'm 546 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: about to probably annoy your readers, is I don't let 547 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 2: my students when we studied Ruth use the word kinsman redeemer. 548 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 2: You've heard me a couple of times use the word 549 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 2: financially responsible near relative, because that's what it means. And 550 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 2: so we use the term kinsman redeemer, and we load 551 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 2: it with all this typological sense that comes from us. 552 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: But it's not a sexy term. It's it's not this 553 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 2: theologically loaded term. It's just a financially responsible next of kin. 554 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:40,919 Speaker 3: Yeah. 555 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 2: And so when I when I the reason I do 556 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 2: that to my students is so they stop and live 557 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 2: in the moment that they don't when they don't know 558 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 2: what to do, they just oh, well, this is kind 559 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 2: of a story about this romance. So well, we need 560 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 2: to we need to find the gospel here No, I 561 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 2: don't need to find the gospel. The gospel right here. 562 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 2: We're on the way in this gospel story. But we 563 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 2: need to see what's going on here in this moment 564 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: of progressive revelation. I don't need to jump to the future. 565 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 2: We can live here. And so I think that kind 566 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 2: of our discomfort in dealing with all this is part 567 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: of the part of the issue. And we don't often 568 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 2: like complications and messiness when we have our discussions. We 569 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 2: want to settle everything right. 570 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: Well, let me pivot a little bit, because you've got 571 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: this new book coming out and it's really helpful. You know, 572 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: you and I have been at this for a long time. 573 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: You know, I got my doctorate in twenty twelve ish 574 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: somewhere in there, and so it's been a good decade 575 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: plus that I've been studying the Old Testament. You're the same, 576 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: probably even longer than I have. There's a a tendency. 577 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: I think that as we read and reread these texts, 578 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: we start to have enough packed into our brains that 579 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: we start to recognize some of these illusions that we 580 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: start to connect these dots in a text, and so 581 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: that even if we're reading Ruth, we go back automatically 582 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: to some of these laws. Where someone who's more of 583 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: a casual Bible reader, who's just in the church in 584 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: the pews, they may read Ruth and go that was 585 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: a fantastic story. They'll catch some of the themes that 586 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: they don't always get, the illusions and the depth. How 587 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: do you help someone develop that depth aside from you know, 588 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: an expensive PhD in years of study? 589 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that's it's always tempting to take 590 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 2: a PhD. Yeah, But I think that I think that 591 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 2: we've we kind of have a phobia against the laws. 592 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 2: So when we read the old test that we're in 593 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 2: a narrative like Ruth, and we somehow can just ignore 594 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 2: that this is a very legal heavy narrative and we're 595 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 2: able to basically ignore all of that and just read 596 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: it as a nice harlequin romance, right, Hallmark romance. That's 597 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 2: a better way. I said, Well, sorry, like a Hallmark 598 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 2: romance that somebody would watch on TV and say, oh, 599 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 2: isn't that quaint? Well, yes, it's quaint, but there's something 600 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 2: more at stake, and people are trying to live according 601 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 2: to God's covenantal will, and so I think part of 602 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 2: it is maybe the mechanical issue of you know, reading 603 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 2: the cross references in our Bible. But I think the 604 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 2: bigger problem that we're up against at the moment is 605 00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 2: there's sort of a repulsion towards Torah and towards especially 606 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 2: the teachings of Torah. And so that that repulsion that 607 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: a lot of Christians have, they think, oh, I don't 608 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 2: want to I'm interested in grace. Well, you know, we 609 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 2: have news for people. Torah is God's gift to his people, 610 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 2: his covenantal will is the Gospel I mean moving forward. 611 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: And so I think that we have to both get 612 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,879 Speaker 2: the mechanics of actually making the connections that are made 613 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 2: in the Bible and thinking through the complexities of what 614 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 2: are there not to be complex for complexity's sake, but 615 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 2: life is messy. And on the other side, to recognize 616 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 2: that the Gospel starts way earlier in the Bible, and 617 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 2: we don't have to put it in there. We don't 618 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 2: have to like find some Kinsman Deemer trick to like 619 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 2: push the Gospel into the Bible. It's already there. And 620 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 2: so we just have to study the Bible and we 621 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 2: have to trust the Lord. And so this progressive revelation 622 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 2: then is maybe as much coming out of a value 623 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 2: of how we would treat scripture and begin to see 624 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 2: the connections that are native to it, not just try 625 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 2: to put the message onto it that we want to find. 626 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 2: That's a little bit too simplistic, but there's so many 627 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 2: you know, I'm just talking about in our day. I'm 628 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 2: kind of addressing the Biblical illiteracy which is rampant, and 629 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 2: then also some of the related reasons to that, and 630 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 2: what we do. We don't bother to undo the biblical illiteracy, 631 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 2: We kind of find a way to work in it 632 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,479 Speaker 2: and accept people's prejudice against God's word. 633 00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. 634 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: I mean, the first time you were on the show show, 635 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,800 Speaker 1: we talked actually about the immoral Torah and your article 636 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: and jets on this issue, and basically for those of 637 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: you who haven't listened to that episode, you can go 638 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: back and find it. But the gist of it was 639 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: that there's a movement in amongst some Old Testament scholars 640 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: to mark out a not remove, but. 641 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 3: Cross out. 642 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: Laws in the Torah that we would deem immoral. And 643 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,439 Speaker 1: I think that's an extreme case of what you're really 644 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,879 Speaker 1: talking about here, because the more mundane way of doing 645 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: is just to say, yes, I know that they're all there. Yes, 646 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: I know that they're all God's word. It's almost completely 647 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: irrelevant for anything that I am interested in doing, and 648 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: so I'm just going to stick somewhere else in the 649 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: canon and ignore most of that. It's functionally, you know, 650 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: you're not actually physically crossing anything out, and so it 651 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 1: conveys a certain reverence for scripture that maybe the other 652 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: maybe crossing out versus doesn't, But it's functionally doing the 653 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: same thing. It's ignoring an aspect of the counsel of 654 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: God's word that we should not be ignoring. And so, 655 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: and you're right, I think that is related to a 656 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: skill level. People tend to get more comfortable. You know, 657 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: there's a reason I don't read Song of Solomon every day. 658 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: That's some weird stuff, and I'm just not as good 659 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,800 Speaker 1: at interpreting that. And so you're going to gravitate to 660 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: your areas of competence. I think that's a normal thing. 661 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's not like I would say, yeah, 662 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: I've never read the Song of Solomon before, and I 663 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: would never read it again, right, And so I think 664 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: we have to sort of balance somewhere in there, do 665 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: you think as you wrote your book, and it's got 666 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: a lot of really helpful charts and layouts and really 667 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: giving examples of how these things interconnect. Is part of 668 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: your hope to sort of get people thinking in this 669 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,240 Speaker 1: way about the Old Testament and helping them to understand 670 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: how they actually can. 671 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 3: Think this way about the Old Testament. 672 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this book is the one I really 673 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 2: wanted to write. It's and my editor really wanted this too. 674 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 2: She's got her PhD In Old Testament, So this is 675 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 2: the one that really was driving the others. But I 676 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,280 Speaker 2: have a book called Old Testament Use of Old Testament, 677 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 2: which is a handbook that kind of explains through each 678 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 2: book of the Old Testament and sort of the hermeneutical 679 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 2: profile of each Biblical author and examples of how they 680 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,399 Speaker 2: use scripture. I have another book, a co authored book 681 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 2: called How to Study the Bible's Use of the Bible, 682 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 2: which is really there's seven choices that we need to 683 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,840 Speaker 2: make in order to interpret the Bible's use of the 684 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 2: Bible well, which is one of the hardest things to interpret. 685 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 2: But this book that is just coming out this year, 686 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 2: Old Testament Use of Old Testament in parallel a out. 687 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,800 Speaker 2: It's not making an argument, it's laying out the evidence 688 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 2: in a new way that will provide a true inductive 689 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 2: tool for users. So it's not just like laying it 690 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 2: out there in a way that there's some guardrails in 691 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 2: a sense, so that the related texture laid out side 692 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 2: by side. But there there's a system of color coding 693 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 2: so that English Bible readers or seminary students and pastors 694 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 2: who have studied Hebrew and Greek, they'll be able to 695 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 2: see exactly what is related to each other and what's different. 696 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:49,439 Speaker 2: And then also there's suggestions by using red for where 697 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 2: the interpretive I guess outcomes are that the author intended, 698 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,760 Speaker 2: and those kind of put this way in the introduction, 699 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 2: the user needs to ask every time they see red, 700 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 2: is that where the red goes? Or does it go 701 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 2: somewhere else? Right, So there's the cold text is the 702 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,480 Speaker 2: blue text, and the distinctive text is the black. So 703 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 2: the color coding makes it really just jump off the 704 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 2: page so that the reader can have real help. But 705 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 2: what I've blocked out it doesn't like just talk at 706 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,359 Speaker 2: the reader and tell the reader here's the answer, here's 707 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 2: the answer that's in the other books. So I'm not 708 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 2: shy about my views. But this is the inductive study 709 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,200 Speaker 2: to get the reader's chance to wrestle with the scriptures themselves, 710 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 2: but with helps of the reader says, but I don't 711 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 2: know what to do. Well, here's the Bible, and it's 712 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 2: color coded, it's laid out. You can do something with us. 713 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: It reminded me when I looking through it and just 714 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: reading through various. 715 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,720 Speaker 3: Aspects of it. 716 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 1: The synopsis of the Gospels, you know where you have 717 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: it laid out in Greek and English, and you can 718 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,959 Speaker 1: compare across the gospels, what's different, what's the same. 719 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,239 Speaker 3: And so I found it really helpful as a reference work. 720 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 3: And I think you're right. 721 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: It doesn't make an argument per se, although it's definitely 722 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,960 Speaker 1: illustrating that this is important work that needs to be done. 723 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,480 Speaker 1: So very cool. I'm excited for it to come out. 724 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:31,880 Speaker 1: When does it release, Gary. 725 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 2: It comes out in November. 726 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: November, okay, so available on Amazon for pre order, maybe 727 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,800 Speaker 1: September ish, julyish, something. 728 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,240 Speaker 2: Like that, probably by the end of June. 729 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 3: By end of June. Okay, here you go. 730 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 1: Well, I know we didn't cook quite through everything today, 731 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 1: but we're going to have you back to talk a 732 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: little bit about more about Old Testament use in the 733 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:01,840 Speaker 1: New Testament, which is honestly seems like the more normal 734 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: field of study. Normal might be the wrong word, the 735 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: more popular field of study. People tend to want to 736 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 1: see how the testaments connect. But I really find this 737 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,759 Speaker 1: work Old Testament use in the Old Testament to be fascinating, 738 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 1: and so really appreciate your work, Appreciate the conversation, and 739 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: we'll do this again Old Testament use in the New 740 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:22,880 Speaker 1: Testament in the next episode. 741 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,359 Speaker 3: So thanks Gary very much for being here. 742 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 2: James, thanks for having me on. It's great to have 743 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 2: a chance to talk through these things. 744 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 1: Do me one favor and mention your substack before we 745 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:36,360 Speaker 1: leave it. 746 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,600 Speaker 3: Is please, Yeah, go ahead and do that. 747 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 2: Carpentersstudent dot Com. It's free. There's two s's in the middle, 748 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 2: Carpenter's Student dot Com, and that's a place where able 749 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,760 Speaker 2: to get into some of the behind the scenes things 750 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 2: that really can't be done anywhere else. There's no room 751 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 2: for that kind of stuff in books or in the classroom. 752 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 3: Very good. Well, we'll have that linked in the show notes. 753 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,320 Speaker 1: So if you want to check out more from Gary, 754 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,680 Speaker 1: I'd really recommend going there. I've gotten to read through 755 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: several of his articles just in preparing for these episodes 756 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,040 Speaker 1: and finding them really helpful. We'll probably reference one of 757 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,800 Speaker 1: them in the next couple episodes. Grandparent Texts was probably 758 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: one of my favorites that he did, and so we'll 759 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: dive into those. But yeah, I encourage you to check 760 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 1: out Gary's work and certainly by the book. We'll have 761 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,920 Speaker 1: links to everything in the show notes. I believe this 762 00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,719 Speaker 1: episode will have launched after the pre order window, and 763 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: so we'll probably have the pre order link in there 764 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,879 Speaker 1: for the zonom book that we've been talking a little 765 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: bit about this time, so also check that out. So 766 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: that's it for this episode. Thanks again, Gary for being here, 767 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 1: and thanks everybody for listening. We'll catch you on the 768 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian. 769 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 3: Take Care. 770 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team 771 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the 772 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,839 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 773 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcas cast in 774 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 1: their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 775 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:04,640 Speaker 1: and more.