1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Life Audio on today's episode of Timeless Wisdom. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 2: If there is any word that has a really bad rap, 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: it is in fact revenge, and I want to talk 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: to you about it because I want to tell you 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: that it is. It is misunderstood. So let's try to 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: explain what revenge is and then talk about when it 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 2: is it always wrong? Is having a desire for revenge 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 2: a bad a bad thing and a human and so on. 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom. But Dennis Prager. Welcome 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of hours 11 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to Dennisprager dot com. 13 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: All right, everybody, welcome to the Dennis Prager Show. And 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: the ultimate is use our every let's see every Tuesday 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 2: at this time, I take one of the great issues 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: of life and discuss it with you to bring some 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: clarity to it. And I welcome you indeed, And today 18 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: the subject is revenge. If there is any word that 19 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 2: has a really bad rap, it is in fact revenge, 20 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: and I want to talk to you about it because 21 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: I want to tell you that it is it is misunderstood. 22 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: So let's try to explain what revenge is and then 23 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 2: talk about when it is it always wrong? Is having 24 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: a desire for revenge a bad a bad thing and 25 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: a human and so on? Now, revenge is essentially doing 26 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: to another, getting back at another, as we would say, 27 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: for something bad that that person had done. So I 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 2: guess it would be if you, if you, I guess, 29 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: step on my toe and then I step on your toe. 30 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 2: That's that's revenge. Now, we say, and folks, this is 31 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: this is a really complex subject and I want to 32 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: simplify it as best as possible. But it is complex 33 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 2: because when we say that we believe in punishment or 34 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: justice but not revenge, I think we're fooling ourselves. If 35 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: you put a man in prison for his lifetime, you 36 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: are you're telling me that there's no element of revenge 37 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 2: in that. What is the difference between punishment and revenge? 38 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: Tell me, I'm serious. What is the difference? Now, there 39 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 2: can be some differences punishment, you would say, Well, the 40 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: purpose of punishment is to teach. It teaches the person 41 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: that they did wrong, and it teaches society that what 42 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: that person did is wrong. If we did not punish speeding, 43 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: then we would have no way of really saying to 44 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: society that speeding is wrong. You're right, So there is 45 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: a pedagogic or didactic, fancy words for teaching. There is 46 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: a teaching element to punishment which does not exist in revenge. 47 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: But there is a point in punishment where revenge is 48 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: a factor. Come on, you put away somebody for a lifetime. 49 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: You think that there are people who are in their 50 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: eighties in prison right now that are threats to a 51 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: murder again, of course not or in their seventies or 52 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: even their sixties, if they committed a heinous murder, which 53 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: is almost redundant, but you know what I mean, it's 54 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: beyond murder. And then in their twenties and they're now 55 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: forty years later in prison. You're telling me that this 56 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: is only punishment. There's no element of revenge in that. 57 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: So this is what I want to say to you 58 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: about revenge. That the desire to do to the bad 59 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: what the bad have done to the good, or at 60 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: least to the innocent, is not a bad thing. I repeat. 61 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: The desire to inflict upon the bad the suffering that 62 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: they have inflicted upon the innocent is not a bad thing. 63 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: In fact, I would go further. I would say that 64 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 2: having no such desire to see the bad suffer. Forget punishment. 65 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: We're not talking now punishment. The desire to see the 66 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: bad suffer is I believe put into us by God, 67 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: because God puts in us a certain basic under basic 68 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 2: love of justice. It is unjust that somebody who has 69 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: done horrific things to deliberately done horrific things to an 70 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 2: innocent is now free from having to suffer that himself. 71 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: It's the fact that I am bothered by that. I'm 72 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: not saying we should do it. I am not for 73 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: torturing torturers, But is there no part of me that 74 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: would like to see a Nazi torturer tortured, or to 75 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: see those who did what they did to our American soldiers, 76 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: the unspeakable, barbaric tortures that they inflicted upon to captured 77 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: American soldiers. Would I not like to see those people 78 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: who did that suffer? Of course I would, and I 79 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: don't make any apologies for it. You should apologize if 80 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: you don't want them to suffer. And that's my point 81 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: that there is something good in the human in the 82 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: human psyche, the human heart, and the human conscience in 83 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 2: wanting just revenge, not unjust revenge. And that's what I 84 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: that's the next part of this issue about revenge, the 85 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: desire to have that's why we have eye for an eye, 86 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 2: the desire to have just revenge. If I deliberately take 87 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 2: out your eye, I deserve to lose my eye. Now, 88 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 2: it was never done, and it can't be done. You 89 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: can never have an exact replica of the of the 90 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: crime done to the person. So eye for an eye 91 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: never meant that literally. But why is it there? Is 92 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 2: it just primitive? That's the way a lot of people 93 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: look at it. Ah and eye for an eye, and 94 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: they quote Gandhi. If we followed eye for an eye, 95 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: we'd all be blind. No, it is a statement that 96 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: that is what perfect justice. This would be. What you 97 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: have inflicted improperly on others unjustly on others, will be 98 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: justly inflicted upon you. And I suspect that there are 99 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: those listening who find this problematic, morally problematic. You shouldn't 100 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: want others to suffer. Okay, what should I want them 101 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: to do? Should I want them to repent? I would 102 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: love them to repent, But I also have a belief 103 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 2: that people who don't repent should have to should have 104 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: to feel some of the pain that they have inflicted 105 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 2: upon others. And you have to tell me why is 106 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: that bad? Don't cite to me scripture. We're not debating theology. 107 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: This is not a theology hour this hour. There are 108 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: times when I have a theology hour, absolutely, but I 109 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: want to know from you. I want you to be 110 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: able to explain to me why is it bad? If 111 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: I would like to see the bad suffer in some 112 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 2: way because of the suffering that they inflicted upon the innocent, 113 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: that's what I would like to know. See, there is 114 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: a movement against any notion like this in our society, 115 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: and you're primitive. This is base, this is animalistic, this is 116 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: whatever it is. I don't see it that way. That 117 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: is why it's one of the reasons, one of the 118 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 2: basic reasons that I am for capital punishment. You take 119 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: a person's life deliberately, you don't deserve to keep your own. 120 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: There's an element of revenge there, but it's just revenge. 121 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 2: What is unjust revenge? Unjust revenge is you kill, you 122 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: murder so and so and then so and So's family 123 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: murders your family. No, No, that's that's when revenge gets 124 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 2: correctly a bad name. But I don't even know if 125 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: revenge should even be the term for what was done. 126 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 2: Then that's just barbarity because what you have not it's 127 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: not a matter of revenge alone. You have done the 128 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: same exact injustice. You have murdered the innocent. So what 129 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: kind of nonsense is that that we have? That humanity 130 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: has had a great deal. That is why, by the way, 131 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth was such 132 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: a moral was a fact of moral progress because it 133 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: said one eye is only worth one eye, not the 134 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: two eyes, not a whole body, not a whole clan. 135 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,359 Speaker 2: It was, in fact, one of the great moral advances 136 00:09:55,400 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: of history. What's called in Latin lex talionis the the 137 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: law of eye for an eye. One eye is worth 138 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: one eye. The eye of a nobleman is worth the 139 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: eye of a poor person. It was a spectacular movement forward. 140 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: One A Praguer seven seven six, and we go to 141 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 2: Christina in Tucson, Arizona. Christina, Dennis Prager, Hi, good. 142 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 3: Morning, Dennis. I apologize if I found out of breath. 143 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: I'm getting ready to have baby number seven in a 144 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 3: few weeks. 145 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: Oh, it sounded like a few minutes. 146 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 3: So I just got off the treadmill. But I had 147 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 3: to call you to say, I deal with this issue 148 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 3: with my children, and let me tell you how I 149 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 3: approach it. Part of this issue is consequence for action. 150 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 3: The problem is when a peer acts the revenge or whatever, 151 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 3: when they tried to take care of it themselves, it 152 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 3: becomes an active revenge. But when a proper authority takes 153 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: care of the injustice or whatever, then it becomes not 154 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 3: an issue of revenge but an issue of court. 155 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: Ah, that's so interesting, such an intelligent point, but I 156 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: don't agree. All you have done is deferred who was 157 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: the vengeance taker from the individual to the state. We'll 158 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: be back in a moment. 159 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 160 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 161 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to the Dennis Prager Show, 162 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: The Ultimate Issues Hour. This is the hour each week 163 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: I devote to some ultimate issue of life, some great question. 164 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: Revenge is the subject today, and I am arguing that 165 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: the desire for revenge is a good one, the desire 166 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 2: that if you do not and how do I define it? 167 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 2: A desire to get back at somebody who did something bad, 168 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: deliberately bad. Now, there are many forms of revenge that 169 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: are evil, for example, if somebody didn't do it intentionally. 170 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: For example, if you do far more or anything more 171 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: to the person than that what was done to you, 172 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: or to done to somebody else. We cannot kill a 173 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: murderer's family, no matter how many people the murderer has murdered. 174 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: That's wrong. You don't take revenge on a person. In 175 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: other words, if somebody murders your child, you don't murder 176 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: his child. That's unjust. But there is just revenge, and 177 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: there is also a desire for it. And the desire 178 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: is to see that people who deliberately inflict harm have 179 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: harm inflicted on them. That now we can't act it out, 180 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 2: we have to have a form of government and so on. 181 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: But the desire for it is a noble one. And 182 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: I am afraid of people who do not have any 183 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: or who have well, everybody has it. The people who 184 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: have done whatever they can to remove, to dig out 185 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 2: like some cavity, to drill out of themselves. This desire. Now, 186 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: Christina in Tucson, who's about to give birth. Christina said, 187 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 2: the difference is that revenge is when the individual does it, 188 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 2: and punishment and justice is when an authority does it. 189 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 3: Right, Christina, Yes, that would be where I'm coming. 190 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: Right now, what you're really see here is and I 191 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 2: gave you my answer, but I'll say it again. What 192 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: you are doing, in my view is you are simply 193 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 2: removing revenge from the individual and giving it to the 194 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: state or to the authority figure in the case of. 195 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 4: The school, right. 196 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 3: And I think in that case, what you do is 197 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 3: you are preserving order. 198 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: I agree with you. I don't want people going around 199 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: doing it. We agree, Christina. Okay, but but but don't 200 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: deny that there's an element of revenge when the state 201 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: or the authority does it. 202 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 3: I would I would agree that there is an element 203 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: of revenge in that. Like if one of my kids 204 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 3: shoots someone else with a rubber bandy, I may turn 205 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 3: around to the same thing, back. 206 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 5: To that that's right, so that they. 207 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: Understand that's exactly right. 208 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 3: It feels like. 209 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 2: That that's right. You won't you won't merely take away 210 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: their allowance, right. 211 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 3: I do that it preserves the order in my family 212 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 3: because I am the one exacting it and not kidd right. 213 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: Okay, But the question arises, and here's the toughie. What 214 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: if there is no authority to do it? 215 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 3: That would be a tough question, okay. 216 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: But that is frequently the case. Christina. That's the problem 217 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: because the what if? What if the parent in that 218 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: that case or the teacher wouldn't do it. What if 219 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: the parent or teacher says, I don't care who started, 220 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: just stop. That's a very common thing for people to say. 221 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: So I thank you very much and good luck with 222 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: the baby. Appreciate your calling. One eighth Praeger seven seven 223 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 2: six is eight seven seven two four three triple seven six. 224 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: I want people who have inflicted terrible suffering to suffer. 225 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: And I wonder if you think that that's a bad 226 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: sign or a good sign about me. Jay in Saint Paul, Minnesota, 227 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: Jay female. Yes, how'd you get your name? JJ? 228 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 6: It's short for Jasonlin. 229 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: Oh. Okay, fair enough, Okay. 230 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 6: I had a situation where my boyfriend was murdered at nineteen. 231 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 5: Oh it's terrible. 232 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 6: I grew up with a mother that suffered a lot 233 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 6: of disappointments in her life and never got over them. 234 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 6: And I just really said out at the time that 235 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 6: it was not my responsibility and that if I didn't 236 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 6: let the situation go, I would be just like my mom. 237 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 6: So I think it harms kind of like with the 238 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 6: last cause that it harmed you because if you have 239 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 6: an emotional spin on the revenge, you know it affects 240 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 6: your heart. 241 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: So therefore, what you should give up any desire to 242 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: have that person suffer? 243 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 6: You know, I did. I mean, I just didn't even 244 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 6: it was It wasn't going to bring the person back. 245 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 6: It wasn't. I felt like it wasn't my responsibility. Yes, 246 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 6: it was someone else, It wasn't. 247 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: Wait wait wait, wait, wait wait, it wasn't your responsibility 248 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: to do what. 249 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 6: Even to even care whatever happened to him, even it wasn't, 250 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 6: it wasn't. 251 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: I don't agree with that. I don't want you to 252 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: ruin your life, but I don't want you to have 253 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: a b attitude toward the murderer of your boyfriend. 254 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 6: Well, I had to, I had to move on. I 255 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 6: had to. 256 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: Someone else would Why is that noble? I'm not I'm trying. 257 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 2: I know I'm giving you a hard time, and you 258 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: know that's not what I intend to do. But I'm 259 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 2: challenging you why. I understand psychologically why you did that, 260 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 2: but why is that? I'm asking what the noble thing revenge? Properly, 261 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: the desire for revenge is noble, That's what I'm arguing. 262 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 2: The desire to move on is understandable, but not necessarily noble. 263 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 6: You know, I think that the person you know needs 264 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 6: to get off the streets would be for other people 265 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 6: you know. 266 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: But so that's all you cared was that? 267 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 7: So? 268 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 2: So you're saying that all you cared about the murderer 269 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: of your boyfriend was that he'd be incapable of murdering again. 270 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 2: You had no desire that he suffering. 271 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 6: It wouldn't be in any difference. It would not have 272 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 6: brought him. 273 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: No, I didn't know. I never claim it'll bring anybody back. 274 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 2: It does bring some justice on too worth, but it 275 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 2: doesn't bring the person. I agree with that, Jay, Thank 276 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 2: you so much for calling. It's very important because I 277 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: hear that all the time. Well, look, it's not going 278 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 2: to bring the person back. Of course, not nothing brings 279 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: the person back, so therefore walk. But it's a non sequitor. 280 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: It's not related to my point, since I'm not arguing 281 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: it brings the person back telling me it doesn't is 282 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: no refutation of anything I'm saying. I'm saying that there 283 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: is a nobility in the desire to have the deliberate 284 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: inflictors of harm have harm inflicted on them. Okay, that's 285 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: what I am arguing. And let's go to a JD. 286 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 2: In West Covina, California. JD. Dennis Prager. 287 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 7: Ah, Yes, Dennis, I'm Muslim, and I think, first of all, 288 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 7: it is the motivation, because we learn in Islam that 289 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 7: deeds are by intention. What have you inten is what 290 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,239 Speaker 7: you get for that deed. If you're doing it for 291 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 7: the sake of justice, you're punishing someone, yes, then then 292 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 7: there's a nobility in it. If you're doing it just 293 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 7: for the sake of punishing because you want to see 294 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 7: them suffering as someone else's suffered, this is not correct. 295 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: Because why is it not correct? 296 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 7: Because this is the purview of a law, This is 297 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 7: the purview of God that no one can punish like God. 298 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 2: You're right, nobody can punish like God. But we have 299 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 2: to punish in order to have civilization. But you and 300 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: I both agree for just for just purposes. So I 301 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: said just revenge, I said, I don't want unjust revenge. 302 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 2: But I want to know what about the desire. I'm 303 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: not talking about the act, the desire to have those 304 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: who inflict deliberate suffering taste of the suffering. Is that 305 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: a bad thing? 306 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 7: It's a human thing? 307 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: I know. Is it bad or good? 308 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 5: I don't. 309 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 7: I think it's whatever the intention is makes it bad 310 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 7: or good? 311 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, the intention is that the person feels some of 312 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 2: the suffering that he inflicted. I know my intention totally here, 313 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: clear as a bell. May be wrong, but clear. We'll 314 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: be back in a moment. I'm Dennis Prager. 315 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right now, back 316 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 317 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: You are listening to the Dennis Prager Show, specifically the 318 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: Ultimate Issues Hour, an hour each week at this time 319 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: devoted to the questions of Ultimate Issues, the great questions 320 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: of life. I'm talking to you this hour about revenge, 321 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 2: and I am arguing that the desire and that's what 322 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: revenge is about. I give you here the from Wikipedia, 323 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 2: the free encyclopedia on the Internet. Let's see here. The 324 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 2: vengeful wish consists of forcing the perceived wrongdoer to suffer 325 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: the same pain that they inflicted in the first place. Exactly, 326 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: I have a vengeful wish, and it's got a bad 327 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 2: name to have a vengeful wish. I want to give 328 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: it a good name. I admit it. If you don't 329 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: wish to see people who deliberately make others suffer suffer 330 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: any of what they have inflicted, I find that, frankly, 331 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 2: a bit scary. I I'm sure that there are those 332 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: of you who find what I'm saying scary. That's okay. 333 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 2: You know the old motto on this show, we prefer clarity, 334 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 2: new agreement. I'm just being clear with you. I don't 335 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 2: want to get rid of my primal instinct, which I 336 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 2: admit it is. It's a primal human instinct put in, 337 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 2: in my opinion, by God. It's one of the better ones. 338 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: It is. It's one of our better instincts. That we 339 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: would like to see those who inflict deliberate suffering feel 340 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: some of the suffering that they have inflicted. Fine with me, 341 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: and believe, and let's be honest, that they're many punishments. 342 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 2: Many are simply legal revenge, which is okay with me. 343 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: And what I am not for is unjust or immoral revenge. 344 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: X kills y son, and then why kills X's son. 345 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: That's that's immoral revenge because what he said is I 346 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 2: want you to feel what it's like to lose a child. Ah, 347 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: but it's not right to the child one eight Prager 348 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 2: seven seven six is eight seven seven two four three 349 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: triple seven six And let's go to San Diego, California 350 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 2: and John Hello, John, Dennis Prager. 351 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 8: Hi, Dennis Hi. I think that part of the problem 352 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 8: comes in the fact that there really isn't any difference 353 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 8: in the definitionments between vengeance and avenging and revenge, because 354 00:22:59,320 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 8: I think what. 355 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: You're talking, Oh, there isn't any difference, They're all the 356 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 2: same route. 357 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 8: But shouldn't there be No, isn't there a difference between 358 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 8: vengeance and avenging? 359 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: Nobody? No, Avenging is simply the verb of revenge. 360 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 8: Okay, Well, then then I have no point because I 361 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 8: was always thinking that revenge was something that was taken 362 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 8: upon a person after they had already suffered the social 363 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 8: consequences of their action, and somebody still took action against 364 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 8: them even. 365 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: Further, Yeah, yes, you're right. When it becomes an action, 366 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 2: I'm not even talking here about actions. I'm talking about 367 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 2: the human desire. That desire is a good one. I 368 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: don't want it extirpated from our conscience. That's that's my 369 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: argument here. 370 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 8: Oh, I would agree with you. 371 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: Okay, wonderful, Thank you for calling. Yeah, that's my argument 372 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: because it's gotten a bad name, and I'd like to 373 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: give it a good name. Just revenge as opposed to 374 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 2: unjust revenge. I'd like somebody to call me up who 375 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 2: believes that if that my desire to see that the 376 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 2: torturers of those American soldiers, or Nazi torture, or a 377 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: whole host of people, or someone or a child molester 378 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: not feel some of the pain that they have inflicted, 379 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: that you think that that desire of mine represents a 380 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: somewhat of low form of humanity, if you will, Apple Valley, Minnesota, Rochelle, Hello, Rochelle. 381 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 4: Dennis Prager, Hi, Dennis, thanks for taking my call. 382 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 2: Thank you. 383 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 4: This very topic has been a topic of conversation in 384 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 4: our family over the last couple of weeks because we 385 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 4: have a son who wants to join the military because 386 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 4: he's interested in that type of life and wants to 387 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 4: learn how to be a special person so that when 388 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 4: he gets out of the military, he can then inflict well, 389 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 4: bring justice to people such as an African general who 390 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 4: takes children into slavery there and uses them in the 391 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 4: sex industry, or just for his own tribe. And it 392 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 4: makes my son so angry. 393 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: I love your son, well, we do too. 394 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 4: But I won't know if this is if it's the 395 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 4: right motive to do that. He is right that if 396 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 4: he just stays in the military, he'll never get a 397 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 4: chance to wipe out these guys. 398 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, but he won't get a chance to 399 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 2: wipe out these guys if he becomes an accountant either. No, 400 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 2: he has a better chance in the military. 401 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 4: No. 402 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: Well, I agree, Okay, that's all that sounds good to me. 403 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment. 404 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: Are you enjoying timeless wisdom? We'd love to hear from you. 405 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: Call eight seven seven two four three seventy seven seventy 406 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: six and leave a review, share your thoughts, or just 407 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: even an encouraging word for Dennis. Your voicemail might just 408 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: make it on the show. That's eight seven seven two 409 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: four three seventy seven seventy six. That's eight seven seven 410 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: two four three triple seven six. Thanks for listening and 411 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: for your support. 412 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: I'm Dennis Prager. I welcome you back to the Ultimate 413 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 2: Issues Hour, the hour each week at this time on 414 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 2: Tuesdays when I talk about the great issues of life, 415 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: and I tile it the Ultimate Issues Hour. The Ultimate 416 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: issue today is revenge, and I am arguing that the 417 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: desire to see that a person who has deliberately inflicted 418 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: suffering on an innocent suffer some of that suffering endure 419 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 2: it that is a noble urge in the human being, 420 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 2: and that, in fact, a lot of punishment is a 421 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: form of just revenge. So I want to give revenge, 422 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: when it is done justly, a good name. That certainly 423 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: the desire for it, I want to give a good name. 424 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: Let's put it that way, and we go to Costa, Mesa, California. 425 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 2: Jason Dennis Prager. Hi, Jason, Hi, Dennis. Hi. 426 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 9: First of all, let me just say that you're an 427 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 9: intellectual father of mine. But Dad, I got to disagree 428 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 9: with you. 429 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 2: Great. 430 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 9: I mean, it's just a it's an inconsistency that I 431 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 9: found in your reasoning that you're supposed to fight your 432 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,239 Speaker 9: animal urges, but in this case you're saying go with it. 433 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. There are urges that we have to fight, 434 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 2: and there were urges that we shouldn't fight or we 435 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 2: should channel correctly. Now, I mean, love is an animal urge, 436 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: and I don't want to fight it, although I mean 437 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: even that can have expressions that are not good need 438 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 2: to be fought. But that's a separate issue. But the 439 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 2: fact that it is a I said, it's a primal urge. 440 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: I think it's put in there by God. I think 441 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 2: I think we need to channel our urges so that 442 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 2: the desire for revenge be a great desire for justice. 443 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 9: But in this case, you're actually having someone else dictate 444 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 9: what you would normally do. 445 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: Who was the other? Who was the someone else? 446 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 9: Like, if someone you're revenging for or revenging against, you're 447 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 9: having them dictate who you are as opposed to. Would 448 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 9: you normally do that act anyway? 449 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, but context determines what acts I would do, 450 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 2: So yes, I mean we spoke to a woman earlier 451 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 2: whose boyfriend had been murdered when she was nineteen. She 452 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 2: said that the thing that she was most concerned with 453 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: was moving on in life, and I fully appreciate that fact, 454 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 2: but I asked what, and therefore she really didn't care 455 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: what happened to him, except she wanted to make sure 456 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 2: he didn't kill again. 457 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 9: Well, that seems to me a noble thing. 458 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: I don't think it's noble at all. It's not noble 459 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: to me. What's noble about it. 460 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 9: What's noble about it is that she will not be 461 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 9: doing it again. 462 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, that's noble, yes, but I care what 463 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: happens to him too. 464 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 9: And she didn't phone to the trap of having to 465 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 9: commit or carry this. It will around with her the 466 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 9: rest of her life. 467 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't consider it a trap. Did you ever 468 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: hear of a of a man? And I don't assume 469 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: you did. I'm not trying to catch you obviously. Did 470 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 2: you ever hear of Simon Weasenthal. No, Simon Weasenthal it 471 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: was who just passed away recently. Was spent his life 472 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: tracking down Nazi war criminals. Okay, nobody assumed that any 473 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: of these Nazi war criminals were going to, uh, we're 474 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: going to build gas chambers again, for example, or torture chambers. 475 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: And there were people who dismissed him as well, you know, 476 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 2: move on, you know, get over, get over the Holocaust. 477 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: It's over, man, Get a life. What are you spending 478 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: your life tracking down these Nazi war criminals. And yet 479 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 2: you know, he said he was he was animated by 480 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: the cries of the dead. Uh. And I believe that. 481 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: And you know, if the purpose of life is to 482 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 2: have no ill will or nothing bother you, then you're right. 483 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: But I don't think that that's the purpose of life. 484 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 9: No, I'm not talking about having I'm not talking about 485 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 9: having ill will. But are you. 486 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: Suggesting that those were your words? 487 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 9: Are you suggesting Rosenthal should or is that his name, 488 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 9: Rosenthal Weisenthal should hunt these people down and put them 489 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 9: in gas chambers eye for an eye or are you 490 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 9: saying that no justice. 491 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: Yes, but the very but something be done. Yeah, but 492 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: you the woman was not speaking about about that. She 493 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 2: was speaking about making sure he doesn't kill again. Weisenthal 494 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 2: wasn't getting these people to make sure they don't kill again. 495 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: Nobody thought they'd kill again. 496 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 9: Right, He was trying to bring a completeness. 497 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 2: That's right. Yes, And that's right and and there and 498 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: an element of it was he wanted them to suffer, it, 499 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 2: wasn't it. What does justice mean? Justice means? Part of 500 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: justice is that what X does to why it happens 501 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: to X. That's what I'm saying that that you can't 502 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: fully distinguish between separate between punishment and revenge. It you can't. 503 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: And because revenge has a bad name, punishment has gotten 504 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: a bad name. That's why the Western Europeans don't punish 505 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: people almost at all. They give terrorists a few years 506 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 2: in prison, they give murderers a few years in prison. 507 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: The man who came over to was it to uh 508 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: to which was which? Monica Cellus? Remember that the tennis star. 509 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: He was a Stepfi graft fan, a German tennis fan. 510 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: So he put a big kitchen knife through the shoulder 511 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: blade of Monica Cellus, and then the guy was never 512 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 2: put in prison. Man, we have to understand and we 513 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: know when when we're not vengeful. Here in Europe, we're 514 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 2: not like Americans who believe in vengeance. We're enlightened. So 515 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: so what they do is they don't end up punishing 516 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: because they understand that punishment is a form of vengeance. 517 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: Of course it is. Let's go to thank you so much, 518 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: by the way, I appreciate your calling Jason and Philadelphia. Kevin, Hello, Kevin, 519 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: Dennis Praeger, All right to that, Okay, thank you all. 520 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 10: Right, Well, two years and four months ago, my best friend, 521 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 10: closest person, I mean, he was well, I mean, I'm 522 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 10: not gay, but he was my soulmate in a sense. 523 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 2: I totally understand that I have that with men. I 524 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 2: understand it. Go ahead. 525 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 10: Well, Easter Sunday in two thousand and four, he was 526 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 10: walking home when two guys ended up shooting at each 527 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 10: other and one of them hit him to kick you 528 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,239 Speaker 10: hit him got away through help with his mother, by 529 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 10: the love. And now since then he's run over a 530 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 10: police officer with his car, and he has done a 531 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 10: couple of other crimes as well. And for anybody to 532 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 10: believe that they should forgive him is disgusting because the 533 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 10: uncivilized do not live by the civilized rules. For they 534 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 10: can't be you know, regularly, they can't be controlled by 535 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 10: the same thing. 536 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: All right, Kevin, you're right, and my heart goes out 537 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: to you. The loss of a close friend is horrific, horrific. 538 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: But we're not talking forgiveness here. I'm trying to be 539 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: as narrowly focused as possible so that we don't stray 540 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: onto that other subject. And alan we should put down 541 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 2: forgiveness as a subject for an ultimate Issues Hour. I 542 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: thank you, Kevin. Now, the issue here is not forgiveness. 543 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 2: It is whether or not the desire to see suffer 544 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,719 Speaker 2: the bad suffer what they have done. Is that a 545 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: bad desire? 546 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 547 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 548 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 2: You're listening to the Dennis Prager Shall and I thank 549 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: you for doing so. Final segment of this edition of 550 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: the Ultimate Issues Hour, where we talk about a great 551 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: subject in life. Revenge is the one here. The desire 552 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: to see people who inflict deliberately inflict suffering, suffer themselves. 553 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 2: I think it's a good desire, and we can't act 554 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 2: on it. Most of the time. We do through legal 555 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 2: legal punishment, which is often partially revenge. Life imprisonment without 556 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: the possibility of parolas is not just, is not just punishment, 557 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 2: and is not just keeping the dangerous off the street. 558 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: It's an element of revenge, all righty Chicago, Andre, Hello Andre, 559 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 2: Denis Prager. 560 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 11: Yes, so, okay, if I'm understanding correctly, your argument is 561 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 11: that the inclination for revenge is correct, not the act 562 00:34:59,160 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 11: of right. 563 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 2: That's right, Okay, Well, the act of is also correct 564 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 2: if we understand that part of punishment really is revenge, 565 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 2: and we'd be honest with ourselves like life imprisonment without 566 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: the possibility of parole. But that's to make the murderer suffer, 567 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 2: because nobody believes that a seventy year old committed murder 568 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 2: when he was twenty five is going to commit murder again. 569 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 11: Yes, but how do you properly separate the act from 570 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 11: the inclination for what you believe? Do you not act 571 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 11: on it? 572 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 2: So if you believe if I acted on all my inclinations, 573 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 2: I would be in prison. 574 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 11: Yes, but there are people out there that act upon 575 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 11: their inclinations. I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you that 576 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 11: the thought of revenge. 577 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 2: That's why we have to teach people how to control 578 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: their behavior. But I am not going to ask people 579 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 2: to control their behavior by rooting out all of their inclinations. 580 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 2: Then we've become we're less human. I want to rebeam. 581 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 11: Sorry, you become an automaton. 582 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 2: That's right, excellent, Andre, that's exactly right. We become automatons. 583 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 11: But okay, but if you okay, if you do what 584 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 11: you're saying and you weed out, and you become Automaton's 585 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 11: society would be better per se, but the act of well. 586 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 2: It'd be better per se if we all became flowers. 587 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 2: You know, nobody would hurt anybody. You're good, Andre, very good. 588 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 2: I appreciate that call a lot. Kathy and Minnesota says, 589 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 2: when our son was in fifth grade, a bully kept 590 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 2: hitting him. School wouldn't do anything, so I told my 591 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 2: son to hit the bully back, and that ended the bullying. Kathy, 592 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 2: I would hug you if your husband allowed it. That's 593 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 2: exactly right. You see, we've gone to the other extreme. 594 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: That's what's happened. Because we so hate crazy vengeance. We 595 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 2: have acted like, oh, you can't do anything. Everything is 596 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 2: just you know, we go to the authorities and let 597 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: them handle it, and so on. Jack Kevin again, Jim did, 598 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 2: Andrea and Kathy Rick. Sorry I didn't get to your calls. 599 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 2: I hope you'll think about this and the whole issue 600 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 2: of our instincts. There's a nobility to many of our instincts. 601 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 2: Doesn't mean we can always act on them. This is 602 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: Dennis Prager. This is the Ultimate Issues. 603 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: Hour tomorrow on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. 604 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 2: Folks, when you were dating the person that you married. 605 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: Did you do everything possible if you wanted that person? Obviously? 606 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 2: Did you do everything possible to win their love? It's 607 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 2: a rhetorical question. The answer is yes, you acted nicely, 608 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 2: you were kind, you looked your best, just to give 609 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 2: three examples. Why, because you knew if you didn't work 610 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 2: on all those things plus more, then you wouldn't win 611 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 2: that person whom you wanted to be your husband or 612 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: your wife. Question number two, rhetorical question number two for 613 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 2: that matter, why did you stop doing that once you 614 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 2: were married? Leving you think about it, that's the reason 615 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 2: for the silence. Why do people stop trying to win 616 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 2: over the affection of the person they married. 617 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 12: I listened to your show quite regularly, and I don't 618 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 12: always agree with you. Today, you're spot on with a 619 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 12: lot of things you're saying. 620 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 2: Good. 621 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 12: I'm speaking from someone who is approaching a divorce at 622 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 12: this point in time. 623 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. 624 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 12: A couple of the things that I think you left 625 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 12: that that are very important, and the adherence the fact 626 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 12: that you were mentioning there is really really very important. 627 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 12: I don't know if it's as important to females as 628 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 12: it is to males, as you kind of alluded to, 629 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 12: and for some reason or other, I think females find 630 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 12: it difficult to understand. I think that their theory is 631 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 12: not only that they've caught the man, but that if 632 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 12: the man truly loved them, he'll accept them for whoever 633 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 12: they are, even though they did their best, as you said, 634 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 12: to attract them by looking their best. 635 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 5: Initially my comments, I think it's unrealistic to expect a 636 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,800 Speaker 5: couple to maintain the level of intensity that they have 637 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 5: while dating, mostly because during dating it's really fueled by 638 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 5: a less fell excitement to discover the unknown. And then 639 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 5: I think in any case, being an athlete bit and 640 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 5: it's unrealistic to expect somebody to maintain a level of 641 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 5: it that level of intensity all the time. 642 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 13: Well, I think the answer is I think most people 643 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 13: are lazy and selfish, and you know, people just want 644 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 13: to do what they want to do. Marriage is extremely 645 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 13: hard work. When my wife and I first were married, 646 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 13: we were both extremely selfish, spoiled people, and we went 647 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 13: to marriage counseling on and off for eight years, uh 648 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 13: sometimes twice a month, sometimes once a month, and then 649 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 13: it became more of like a maintenance thing. After five 650 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 13: or six years. But we've we've learned how to resolve 651 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 13: conflict in a respectful way, and we've become great partners 652 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 13: out of it and great friends out of it. We 653 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 13: both take care of ourselves and we do. We know, 654 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 13: we keep their romance up there, and it's you know, 655 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 13: if you're just going to be lazy and just that's right, 656 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 13: you're going to be divorced. 657 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: Join us tomorrow to hear more on Timeless Wisdom with 658 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: Dennis Prigger. Visit Dennisprigger dot com for thousands of hours 659 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: if Dennis's lectures, courses in classic radio programs, and to 660 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles. We want to take just 661 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for 662 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: their partnership with us on the podcast. Go to lifeaudio 663 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: dot com to find dozens of other faith centered podcasts 664 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: and their network, including shows about prayer, Bible study, parting, 665 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: and more.