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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dr.

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Speaker 1: James Spencer. I'm joined by my co-host, Dr. Ashish Varma.

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Speaker 3: And today we're going to be talking about the discussion

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Speaker 3: that we had with William Cavanaugh. William Cavanaugh is a theologian.

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Speaker 3: He's at DePaul University. He's written a number of different books.

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Speaker 3: As I mentioned on the episode, my favorite is sort

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Speaker 3: of Torture and Eucharist, but I like a lot of

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Speaker 3: his other stuff. And it was an interesting conversation about

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Speaker 3: politics and how Christians might think about recapitulating politics. And

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Speaker 3: so today we're going to just debrief on that conversation.

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Speaker 3: And I think probably the first thing that comes to

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Speaker 3: my mind when I talk to him was, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's always hard, I think, when you talk to an

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Speaker 3: author because their writing is so in-depth and thoughtful and clear.

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Speaker 3: And when you talk to him, you know, it can

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Speaker 3: feel a little bit more scattered. And I felt like

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Speaker 3: some of the comments that he made regarding things like,

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Speaker 3: you know, the church is not always in opposition to the.

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Speaker 1: World or appropriate.

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Speaker 3: But then when you read his work, it seems very

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Speaker 3: clear that part of what he's arguing for is that

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Speaker 3: the church actually resists the tendencies of the economic world,

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Speaker 3: the political world, the um, you know, the various operations

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Speaker 3: that the world sort of tries to pull us into.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think that's an exclusive act, you know,

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Speaker 3: like he's just telling us to resist, just telling us

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Speaker 3: to reject everything, but it certainly felt like a theme

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Speaker 3: that carried through his work. And it felt a little

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Speaker 3: bit softer when he talked about it. Did you get

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Speaker 3: that sense as well? Or is that just me?

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Speaker 2: I did. I got that sense. And I wonder if

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Speaker 2: a little bit of that is, um, that we were

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Speaker 2: working off of different ideas of world and different ideas

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Speaker 2: of what it means to live within it. Because I

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Speaker 2: think what we get, I mean, the very cover of his,

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Speaker 2: I love the cover of his Migrations of the Holy,

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Speaker 2: where you get this very strong sense that there are

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Speaker 2: different programs at play. So he has, as I recall,

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Speaker 2: the cross in the center of one and the American

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Speaker 2: flag in the center of the other one. And I

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Speaker 2: think the point he's trying to make in that book

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Speaker 2: is that there are certain places that the state is going, right?

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Speaker 2: The very idea of a nation state, it rules this

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Speaker 2: whole first chapter. He's trying to say, we take for

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Speaker 2: granted the idea of a nation state. A nation state

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Speaker 2: is an ideological idea is an ideological thing is what

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Speaker 2: he wants to say. It's not some neutral organization. And

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Speaker 2: we talked a little bit with him. He didn't delve

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Speaker 2: too much into it in our podcast, but we had

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Speaker 2: asked him about, um, what does it look like to be,

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Speaker 2: to be taking the idea of the nation state and

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Speaker 2: to work off of it in a way in which

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Speaker 2: you're not, you're obviously not going to be opposed to

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Speaker 2: everything that it does, but you recognize it didn't have

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Speaker 2: to be this way.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And I think in the book he does, he pushes

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Speaker 2: stronger to say, The reason we want to say that

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Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be this way is that the

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Speaker 2: nation state has certain ideals, goals, purposes. It has a

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Speaker 2: way of being in the world that is meant to

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Speaker 2: organize people as an exclusionary event, right? It creates an

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Speaker 2: in and an out. And we see this in the

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Speaker 2: frequent rhetoric. It honestly drives me nuts when I turn

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Speaker 2: on the news and I hear, there was this attack

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Speaker 2: at such and such a place and there were 42 casualties,

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Speaker 2: three Americans died. And my immediate reaction is, let's dwell

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Speaker 2: on the fact that there were 42 casualties. Why is

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Speaker 2: there a special notation for three Americans dying? Well, it's

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Speaker 2: because the news services know full well that the ways

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Speaker 2: in which we've been formed in the ideology of nation-state

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Speaker 2: is an in-out, us-them mentality, where there's something more significant

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Speaker 2: about us. And I think that is what I really

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Speaker 2: get a sense in the texts, that in his texts

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Speaker 2: that he's trying to push against to say the church

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Speaker 2: can't live in that space. And that to me is

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Speaker 2: where it kind of the intersection is where his comments

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Speaker 2: and in the conversation with us makes sense, right? Because

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Speaker 2: I don't hear him saying overall, every moment is a battle.

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Speaker 2: I think it'd be a mistake to read them that way,

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Speaker 2: but I think his larger point in the book is

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Speaker 2: ideologically there's a difference and to be subsumed under the

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Speaker 2: one is, is to actually miss the goals of what

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Speaker 2: the church is supposed to be.

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Speaker 3: And it does seem like that's why he drifts into idolatry.

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Speaker 3: You do get a lot of Christian political writers who

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Speaker 3: don't drift into idolatry.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's.

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Speaker 3: An interesting sort of distinctive of some of his writing.

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Speaker 3: He does tend to name that idolatry, that as we

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Speaker 3: as you're saying, the ideology of the nation state, we

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Speaker 3: are in essence embracing an idol. There is a glorification

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Speaker 3: of something other than God that is happening in the

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Speaker 3: ideology of a nation state that drives us toward different

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Speaker 3: aims than glorifying God. It drives us toward a different pre-reflective,

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Speaker 3: instinctual way of living in the world than conformity to Christ.

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Speaker 3: And so these things are idolatrous. They are dehumanizing sort

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Speaker 3: of at their very core, even though, as he mentioned

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Speaker 3: on the podcast, it's not as if the nation state

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Speaker 3: only ever does bad things.

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Speaker 1: I think biblically, we can't really say that.

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Speaker 3: You that the political authorities are set up to do

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Speaker 3: the good thing, to pursue justice. It doesn't mean they

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Speaker 3: always do that, but it assumes that they're capable of it.

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Speaker 3: And so we can't just deny the fact that the

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Speaker 3: nation state does good things. I think, honestly, and I

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Speaker 3: appreciate your take on this, because I, you know, again,

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Speaker 3: as sort of a fan of torture and Eucharist, you

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Speaker 3: do see a much more resistance-oriented sort of take on

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Speaker 3: what the church does in that book than maybe you

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Speaker 3: see in theopolitical imagination or migrations of the holy. I

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Speaker 3: would say the two I'm most familiar with, and I've

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Speaker 3: read theopolitical imagination, migrations of the holy, but torture and

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Speaker 3: Eucharist and being consumed really do seem like there is

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Speaker 3: a an explicit call to the church for the church

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Speaker 3: to resist these sort of mechanisms, these inconspicuous patterns, as

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Speaker 3: I usually refer to them that are forming us into

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Speaker 3: something different than we actually are.

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Speaker 2: So, so I haven't read those ones, so I just

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Speaker 2: have to lean on your expertise on them. The key

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Speaker 2: word that I hear from you is formation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that we've talked in various contexts about

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Speaker 2: on this podcast that, formation, I think, is the distinguishing marker.

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Speaker 2: What are you formed into? And within that, then, is

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Speaker 2: a gloss on identity, because your formation says something about

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Speaker 2: who you are. Who do you see yourself as? Why

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Speaker 2: do you see yourself in this way? So my guess,

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Speaker 2: just trying to read into it from his other works,

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Speaker 2: and even the way that you and I talked about off-air,

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Speaker 2: the way that he organizes and populates as Erdmann's reader

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Speaker 2: for political theology, What was really refreshing to me in that,

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Speaker 2: and I think it dovetails into this conversation, is that

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Speaker 2: he recognizes that there are voices that are formed outside

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Speaker 2: of our sense of normalcy. Yeah. against a kind of

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Speaker 2: regime that had a different effect on them than it

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Speaker 2: might have had here in the Western world, North America,

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Speaker 2: especially in the United States, where in a real sense,

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Speaker 2: we can speak of ourselves if we think of a

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Speaker 2: global economic empire. We are in the middle of it. Now,

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Speaker 2: there's certainly a battle in the middle for what's the middle,

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Speaker 2: and that's its own conversation. But these other voices that

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Speaker 2: he brings in are people who are decidedly not in

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Speaker 2: the middle. They're the periphery. They're the ones who are

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Speaker 2: on the outside. And what is it that they're contending for?

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Speaker 2: How is it that they see things? And honestly, their

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Speaker 2: locations are in some ways closer to the biblical milieu

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Speaker 2: than ours, right? When you think about Jesus is on

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Speaker 2: the periphery of empire as well. Paul's on the periphery

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Speaker 2: of empire as well. And even to the degree that

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Speaker 2: Paul has citizenship in that empire, apart from using it,

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Speaker 2: occasionally for his purposes. He's not living in that space,

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Speaker 2: making rules, dictating terms. He's reactive. And that's how some

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Speaker 2: of these other voices are. They're reactive. So it becomes

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Speaker 2: really interesting in our environment to think about that, that

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Speaker 2: perhaps one of the big differences is audience. So if

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Speaker 2: he's writing about the reactive posture in places where you're

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Speaker 2: on the periphery, maybe he's trying to kind of knock

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Speaker 2: on the head people who are in the center of

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Speaker 2: global economic empire and say, hey, you know what? There's

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Speaker 2: another way to view yourself and your formation is what's

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Speaker 2: at stake here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting take. I think that... I agree

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Speaker 1: with it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think that, you know, the liberation theologians

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Speaker 3: among us do have a pretty unique perspective that they're

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Speaker 3: trying to bring to the world and help everybody else understand.

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Speaker 3: And it sort of connects into a statement that he

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Speaker 3: made on the podcast. He mentioned something about, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'd asked him about clear, what practical steps would you

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Speaker 3: give to people as they're going into the midterms to vote? And,

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Speaker 3: you know, he said something like, I'm not sure I

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Speaker 3: can answer that without sounding partisan.

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Speaker 1: And I actually think he really meant that. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now, and here's how I think he meant that. Just

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Speaker 3: having read his work and even just the tone of

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Speaker 3: the conversation yesterday, he is not the sort of person

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Speaker 3: who's saying the Republican Party is wrong and the Democratic

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Speaker 3: Party is right or vice versa.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: He's the sort of person that's saying, I don't even

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Speaker 3: think he's saying there's a third rail. What I think

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Speaker 3: he's saying is almost what he led off saying, is

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Speaker 3: that the gospel is inherently political. That the kingdom of

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Speaker 3: God is a political entity that exists within the world.

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Speaker 3: And that the way that we operate in the world

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Speaker 3: speaks to and embodies Christ within public life. And so

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Speaker 3: we can't just think in terms of the polarities. that

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Speaker 3: we may be presented in political debate.

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Speaker 1: We've got to be thinking theologically about what our activities are.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes those theological activities are going to align with

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Speaker 3: one side or the other.

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Speaker 1: We need to understand that not as partisan politics.

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Speaker 3: We need to understand that as a working out of

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Speaker 3: our theological imagination within the world.

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Speaker 1: There's always going to be this sort of bleed over.

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Speaker 3: Where it can get confusing whether or not we're working

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Speaker 3: as a particular political entity and political party, because we're

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Speaker 3: going to be working alongside people who.

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Speaker 1: Maybe incidentally share this value with us.

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Speaker 3: But the reality is that a Christian who goes down

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Speaker 3: to help, you know, do humanitarian work for a hurricane

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Speaker 3: is doing something fundamentally different than just random, you know,

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Speaker 3: Joe Public who goes down and does the same thing.

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Speaker 1: And it's often hard to understand that difference.

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Speaker 3: But that's what I heard him saying when he was saying, look,

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Speaker 3: it's going to be hard for me to answer that

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Speaker 3: without sounding partisan.

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Speaker 1: What I heard him.

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Speaker 3: Saying was a lot of this theology is going to

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Speaker 3: overlap with one political party or the other. And that

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Speaker 3: makes it sound partisan. Right. But the reality is that

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Speaker 3: these are things that Christians should be thinking about, should

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Speaker 3: be acting upon, and should be reflecting about beyond the

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Speaker 3: political sphere and the political discourse that we have in

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Speaker 3: society today.

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Speaker 1: Was that how you sort of took him or am

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Speaker 1: I over-interpreting that?

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Speaker 2: No, that was how I took him as well. I

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Speaker 2: think the key word you used is incidental.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That it's not him approaching the situation saying, I am

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Speaker 2: fill-in-the-blank political party member. And therefore, I affirm the values

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Speaker 2: of those political parties, this political party. Rather incidentally, it was,

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Speaker 2: I am someone who's being attentive to what we should

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Speaker 2: recognize as holy if we say that we are followers

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Speaker 2: of Jesus.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: And insofar as Jesus actually says stuff and his followers

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Speaker 2: say stuff, and we collectively have understood what they say

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Speaker 2: recorded as scripture— I want to take these things seriously.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was important that he said, you know,

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Speaker 2: he sort of tongue in cheek said, of course, the

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Speaker 2: Catholic church has never had problems in the past, which

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Speaker 2: he knew full well that it did. And he was,

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Speaker 2: you know, he certainly didn't mean that it hasn't. And

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Speaker 2: for him, that was sort of, it was a tacit

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Speaker 2: recognition of where the Catholic church and posture to it

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Speaker 2: is now versus maybe when Luther was reacting to it,

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Speaker 2: that he has the ability to, in the current climate

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Speaker 2: to be able to say that the church was, has

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Speaker 2: been wrong and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And then we could start to lay, we could, we

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Speaker 2: could start to line up all these issues in which

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Speaker 2: no one in their right mind would want to say

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Speaker 2: the church is right about this.

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Speaker 3: Right. Right.

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Speaker 2: But the honesty there was able for, for him to

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Speaker 2: be able to say, the reason I can say that

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Speaker 2: it's wrong is because we have these recordings that What

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Speaker 2: it is that shows closeness to the heart of Jesus.

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Speaker 2: Or I think about when we were talking to Allison Barr,

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Speaker 2: where she had mentioned that, look, at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, what do we look for? We look for

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Speaker 2: fruit of the Spirit that tells you something about the truth.

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Speaker 2: And that's sort of how I heard him. The fruit

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Speaker 2: of the Spirit of those who are wanting to draw

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Speaker 2: close to Jesus to recognize what is in fact the Holy.

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Speaker 2: entails these different things, right? These postures that in our

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Speaker 2: current world work themselves out to the way that he

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Speaker 2: wanted to say, you know, like I've got solar panels

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Speaker 2: because I think being attentive to energy is important and

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Speaker 2: how we get it and whether it's helpful to the

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Speaker 2: earth or not, you know, where I buy from matters,

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Speaker 2: you know, what, where I have my investments for retirement

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Speaker 2: are matter. These are material things. And incidentally, those happen

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Speaker 2: to draw him closer to one political party. But to

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Speaker 2: your point, I didn't hear him as saying, I am

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Speaker 2: that political party member and I'm going to advocate for it.

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Speaker 2: I heard him saying, I'm advocating for the things that

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Speaker 2: I see Jesus and the apostles advocating for. And the

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Speaker 2: way that works itself out today where I am means

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Speaker 2: that I have a clear path for voting. Which I

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Speaker 2: think it's worth saying, it's enriching to hear. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: one issue. It was a conglomeration of issues, which isn't

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Speaker 2: to say that there might be other things on the

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Speaker 2: other side of the aisle that he doesn't agree with. Invariably,

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Speaker 2: he probably does. But it was the overwhelming preponderance of

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Speaker 2: this party more than the other one is accomplishing, or

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Speaker 2: at least seeking to accomplish those tasks, is what I

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Speaker 2: heard from him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and what I found interesting about that is I

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Speaker 3: didn't get the sense that he was saying.

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Speaker 1: Vote for one party over another. Right.

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Speaker 3: What I got the impression of saying was these things

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Speaker 3: are important regardless of which party advocates for them and

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Speaker 3: regardless of whether either party advocates for them. I think

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Speaker 3: it's a stretch to look at, you know, Politicians from

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Speaker 3: either Democratic or the Republican Party and suggest that any

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Speaker 3: of them consistently would advocate and live out, you know,

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Speaker 3: the sort of things that he's suggesting.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that gets to that sort of

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Speaker 1: incidental nature.

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Speaker 3: And so to me, what he's doing, which is a

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Speaker 3: distinction we made early on in the podcast, is this

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Speaker 3: distinction between the strictly political. which is the policy debates

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Speaker 3: between our various representatives and senators and politicians and all

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Speaker 3: that kind of stuff, that sort of political realm versus

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Speaker 3: our public life, which is even a distinction that we

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Speaker 3: talked to Michael Rhodes and he makes this distinction. I

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Speaker 3: think it's actually a really helpful distinction. How we live

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Speaker 3: life publicly matters. And all of those things he's talking

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Speaker 3: about are ways that we can live life publicly. ways

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Speaker 3: that we can allow our theology to sort of unwind

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Speaker 3: itself into very practical, tangible moves in our lives that

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Speaker 3: do not exhaust our theology in any way, shape, or form,

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Speaker 3: but certainly express it in some at least minor ways

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Speaker 3: as we're sort of on the path looking for additional

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Speaker 3: alternatives to live as the Bible tells us to live.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's a real important sort of distinction.

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Speaker 3: I read him and listen to him as saying, look,

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Speaker 3: this is the public life of Christians. When you start voting,

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Speaker 3: it gets real complicated.

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Speaker 1: He didn't say that.

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Speaker 3: I'm putting those words in his mouth, but it would

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Speaker 3: get real complicated because you're looking at two sides of Generally,

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Speaker 3: at two sides, I suppose we could count independents or whatever,

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Speaker 3: libertarians in the voting parties.

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Speaker 2: At least on the national level.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: When you get to the local level, it's more than

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Speaker 2: two sides, and that's significant.

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Speaker 3: But at the national level, what we normally see on

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Speaker 3: the news and what we hear about, these feel to

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Speaker 3: me like politicians who have various shades of difference that

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Speaker 3: really don't make a whole lot of sense. they really

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Speaker 3: don't distinguish them from one another that much. I think

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Speaker 3: we're seeing that hard difference between like a Biden and

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Speaker 3: a Trump because the things that they differ on have

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Speaker 3: become much more visible publicly and they've been keyed on.

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Speaker 1: By the news media.

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Speaker 3: But it's hard to envision really hard distinctions between some

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Speaker 3: of the other politicians between Democratic and Republican senators, for instance,

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Speaker 3: or what have you, except on very peculiar issues. They

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Speaker 3: seem to all be operating within a very clear system, right,

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Speaker 3: that is part lobby, right, part sort of virtue signaling,

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Speaker 3: part maintaining your voting public, and part doing some really

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Speaker 3: good stuff. And so, you know, you've got that sort

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Speaker 3: of intermingling, but I didn't, when I was listening to him,

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Speaker 3: I was hearing him say, look, these are the things

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Speaker 3: that we could do theologically in public. These are some

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Speaker 3: of the things we could do theologically in public, as

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Speaker 3: opposed to this is the way politically we should move.

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Speaker 1: Agreed.

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Speaker 2: And he didn't come out and advocate for a political group, right?

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Speaker 2: So again, it was his recognition that what he was

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Speaker 2: going to say is going to tip his hat towards

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Speaker 2: a certain group. that has certain priorities in the present

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Speaker 2: that the other doesn't. But I think that's important that

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Speaker 2: he didn't tip his hat because I think his larger

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Speaker 2: point regarding the political, and we've made this point before,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's worth bearing forth again, we've tended

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Speaker 2: in our moment to conflate the idea of the political

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Speaker 2: with the very specific machinations of how we see, especially

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Speaker 2: the federal, but also to a certain degree the state,

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Speaker 2: branches of government working and we see them in terms

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Speaker 2: of cycles right the two-year cycles the four-year cycles the

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Speaker 2: six-year cycles and i that's not how he was talking

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Speaker 2: about political no it's not and it's not the older

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Speaker 2: usage of the term right the older uses the term

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Speaker 2: political has as its base polis from the greek word

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Speaker 2: for city and And in that particular ancient setting, the

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Speaker 2: city was the basic unit of administrative ordering of peoples.

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Speaker 2: So we think of Greece, but there wasn't Greece. There

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Speaker 2: were these different, what we think of now as Greek city-states.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Rome was Rome. Rome wasn't Italy. Rome was Rome. And

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Speaker 2: then it had conquered beyond those boundaries.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 2: And we could say the same for all these other empires.

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Speaker 2: But the idea here at play was that the whole

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Speaker 2: reality of the city was itself an administrative district of

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Speaker 2: public life. So it's people who are joined together and

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Speaker 2: the political life was the public life of what it

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Speaker 2: means to live together within these confines, right? This is

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Speaker 2: what distinguishes people of this city versus that political unit

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Speaker 2: over there. And with that huge caveat, I think if

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Speaker 2: we bring that forth into the present and that broader

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Speaker 2: sense that Kavanaugh was speaking out of and that we've

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Speaker 2: tried to speak out of, The political life is bigger

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Speaker 2: than two- and four- and six-year election cycles. It's bigger

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Speaker 2: than legislative and executive and judicial processes. It entails the

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Speaker 2: basic things that are involved in communal living. And by

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Speaker 2: communal living, I mean here in Chicagoland, where I am,

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Speaker 2: we have issues. And I don't mean that in a

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Speaker 2: negative way. I just mean we have people here. And

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Speaker 2: the people here are of the demographic distributions that they

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Speaker 2: are and the economic distributions that they are. And that

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Speaker 2: presents us with the challenges that what we want is

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Speaker 2: our local governments to attend to those. But by no

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Speaker 2: means does that mean that we're expecting the local government

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Speaker 2: to do everything. The idea is that the local government

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Speaker 2: makes it possible for us within our communities to do

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Speaker 2: what we need to do.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: And I think the way that Kavanaugh was talking about

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Speaker 2: was taking for granted that notion of the political. And

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Speaker 2: that notion then led to him to be able to say,

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Speaker 2: here are the things that my church does. Not perfectly,

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Speaker 2: but it's been really important. Here are the things that

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Speaker 2: I try to do, right? So there are these different circles,

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Speaker 2: if you think of concentric circles, of spheres of influence.

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Speaker 2: Here's what I can do, me and my family. Here's

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Speaker 2: what me and my church community can do. And as

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Speaker 2: you broaden that out, on a local level, here's what

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Speaker 2: we can expect now of those that we seek to

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Speaker 2: elect to represent us to do things that are beyond

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Speaker 2: our scope. And in that sense, he could say, these

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Speaker 2: are priorities that we see as theologically derived. And in

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Speaker 2: that sense, again, the incidental. Once you telescope out, it

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Speaker 2: became apparent where he would vote. But that wasn't the focus.

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Speaker 3: That wasn't at all his focus. And I think it's

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Speaker 3: important just to drive home your point I think about

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Speaker 3: how I feel when I watch somebody throw trash on

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Speaker 3: the ground. There's something really annoying about that and almost disrespectful.

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Speaker 3: You see somebody just litter, just intentionally litter, not something

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Speaker 3: flying out of their car because they're going fast and

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Speaker 3: it just happens to fly out the window, but just

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Speaker 3: throwing their trash on the ground. That is in some

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Speaker 3: sense a political act in that old sense of the term.

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Speaker 3: It's a pretty minor political act. But if you think

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Speaker 3: about what that's doing, it's a way of interacting publicly

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Speaker 3: and with your neighbors that basically says, my trash can

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Speaker 3: go here and I don't really care what you think

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Speaker 3: about it. It suggests a breach of decorum, a breach

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Speaker 3: of almost collegiality between neighbors that is a very small,

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Speaker 3: not insignificant act that says, here's what I think about

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Speaker 3: this polis. And I think to your point, we want our,

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Speaker 3: you know, maybe we want our local government to say, hey,

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Speaker 3: we're going to have littering laws and we're going to

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Speaker 3: find people who litter and we're going to try to

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Speaker 3: use this as a deterrent. But if we look beyond

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Speaker 3: that littering law, why is that done? It's because individuals

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Speaker 3: aren't honoring the polis. And I think that's the sort

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Speaker 3: of tension that we have to live in as Christians is, yes,

439
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,020
Speaker 3: there's going to be these moments where we want our local, state,

440
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,649
Speaker 3: federal governments to do things, right? Speed limits are probably

441
00:26:42,690 --> 00:26:46,369
Speaker 3: a good idea. You know, the analogy I often use is,

442
00:26:46,750 --> 00:26:49,109
Speaker 3: you know, defining which side of the road to drive on,

443
00:26:49,490 --> 00:26:52,010
Speaker 3: probably a good idea. That should not be left up

444
00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:54,510
Speaker 3: to my arbitrary judgment. Today, I'd like to drive on

445
00:26:54,530 --> 00:26:57,730
Speaker 3: the left side of the road no matter what anybody.

446
00:26:57,470 --> 00:26:58,129
Speaker 1: Else is doing.

447
00:26:58,670 --> 00:27:01,230
Speaker 3: That's not a good thing for us to have in

448
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,190
Speaker 3: our society. There has to be a level of coordination

449
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:10,859
Speaker 3: and enforcement and orderliness that the government sort of applies

450
00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:15,090
Speaker 3: to that. But the government is not the only thing

451
00:27:15,130 --> 00:27:19,060
Speaker 3: that has to operate there because you can't enforce everything.

452
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 3: You know, I don't, you know, it's always the joke,

453
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,179
Speaker 3: like who gets a ticket for jaywalking?

454
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: No one. It's because.

455
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,740
Speaker 3: You can't enforce every single minutia law. What you're trying

456
00:27:33,780 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: to do is say, hey, look, it's we're going to

457
00:27:35,780 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 3: have a more orderly society if everybody just uses the crosswalks,

458
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,290
Speaker 3: even when it's inconvenient. Right. And so I think there's

459
00:27:43,330 --> 00:27:45,790
Speaker 3: this sort of notion of polis that we need to

460
00:27:45,850 --> 00:27:49,970
Speaker 3: recapture that Kavanaugh is writing about and that he gestured

461
00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:52,830
Speaker 3: to in the podcast that is that.

462
00:27:52,770 --> 00:27:54,170
Speaker 1: Broader public life.

463
00:27:54,650 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 3: What can we do individually, locally, statewide, federally that are

464
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,100
Speaker 3: going to contribute to the broad polis that is the world,

465
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,109
Speaker 3: but also care for our local polis that is maybe

466
00:28:10,250 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 3: our subdivisions, city, what have you. And it's all of

467
00:28:15,820 --> 00:28:20,419
Speaker 3: those layers that sort of come together. As Christians, we

468
00:28:20,460 --> 00:28:24,139
Speaker 3: could say we're resident aliens. I mean, that's a phrase

469
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,699
Speaker 3: that Howard Ross has used. But it also comes out

470
00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:28,950
Speaker 3: of Philippians, right?

471
00:28:29,010 --> 00:28:31,630
Speaker 1: We're a colony.

472
00:28:32,530 --> 00:28:37,050
Speaker 3: We're sitting within an empire and we're waiting for our entry.

473
00:28:37,109 --> 00:28:39,950
Speaker 3: We're actually citizens of heaven. We just have to live here.

474
00:28:41,180 --> 00:28:43,460
Speaker 3: And so as citizens of heaven, what does it mean

475
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:47,500
Speaker 3: for us to represent our true citizenship within the context

476
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,380
Speaker 3: of different poli? I guess it would be the plural

477
00:28:52,420 --> 00:28:57,860
Speaker 3: of polis, right? Within these different entities, what does.

478
00:28:58,140 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: It look like?

479
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 3: So how would we represent our citizenship in heaven as

480
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,860
Speaker 3: we live our lives within a given polis? And really

481
00:29:10,940 --> 00:29:14,780
Speaker 3: demonstrate what it looks like to have our citizenship in

482
00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: heaven worked out within tangible ways within a given environment.

483
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,140
Speaker 1: And I think that, as I reflect on what he

484
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:24,660
Speaker 1: said in the.

485
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,570
Speaker 3: Podcast and what he's written in his books, I think

486
00:29:26,610 --> 00:29:29,950
Speaker 3: that's where Kavanaugh sort of pushes us and.

487
00:29:32,150 --> 00:29:34,250
Speaker 1: Hopefully helps us to land.

488
00:29:35,870 --> 00:29:37,910
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to set another anecdote next to your

489
00:29:38,290 --> 00:29:39,930
Speaker 2: littering one. I think that was a good one because

490
00:29:40,020 --> 00:29:42,790
Speaker 2: it gets down to the nitty gritty every day.

491
00:29:43,150 --> 00:29:43,370
Speaker 1: Right.

492
00:29:43,390 --> 00:29:47,290
Speaker 2: And to your point, it's really unenforceable to have littering

493
00:29:47,370 --> 00:29:51,190
Speaker 2: laws with the kind of force that we have. Apparently

494
00:29:51,230 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: some places like Singapore managed to enforce it really well.

495
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

496
00:29:55,620 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: Um, maybe that's something worth looking into. Maybe it's not,

497
00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:04,010
Speaker 2: I don't know. But to put next to that, I mean,

498
00:30:04,050 --> 00:30:07,730
Speaker 2: I think about my own anecdote is that we're created

499
00:30:07,790 --> 00:30:12,370
Speaker 2: to be carers of the rest of creation, right? It's

500
00:30:12,410 --> 00:30:14,470
Speaker 2: clear that we don't see better. We're not faster. We

501
00:30:14,490 --> 00:30:18,390
Speaker 2: don't hear better. We're not stronger than the other creatures

502
00:30:18,430 --> 00:30:20,300
Speaker 2: of the earth. You know, we're better at some of

503
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: those things than some of them, but there's, there are

504
00:30:22,540 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: creatures that do all those things better than us. So

505
00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: it's clear that being, Being given this special status as

506
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,610
Speaker 2: image bearers in Genesis 1, carrying into what that looks

507
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,950
Speaker 2: like in Genesis 2, is not meant to mean some

508
00:30:35,030 --> 00:30:37,610
Speaker 2: sort of physical superiority.

509
00:30:37,630 --> 00:30:38,610
Speaker 1: That's right.

510
00:30:39,210 --> 00:30:41,470
Speaker 2: And you and I have worked through that quite a bit,

511
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:47,010
Speaker 2: so there's no need to rehash it. But what's significant

512
00:30:47,070 --> 00:30:50,410
Speaker 2: is that there is this distinct sense specifically of care,

513
00:30:50,890 --> 00:30:53,890
Speaker 2: to work the ground up. to care for the animals,

514
00:30:53,950 --> 00:30:56,380
Speaker 2: to name them, has a certain level of intimacy. To

515
00:30:56,420 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: even recognize the emotional gap, I think, is ultimately what's

516
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: at play in Genesis 2, between us and the animals,

517
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: in that naming. And that we need others like us,

518
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,950
Speaker 2: is to put us all on this gigantic web, right?

519
00:31:07,970 --> 00:31:14,810
Speaker 2: What Wurzba would talk about as enmeshing, entanglement. And now

520
00:31:14,850 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: let's put that in contrast to our modern lives, and

521
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,070
Speaker 2: whatever steps it took to get here, As again, something

522
00:31:22,110 --> 00:31:25,890
Speaker 2: maybe worth exploring at another time and place. Now we

523
00:31:25,910 --> 00:31:28,370
Speaker 2: can go from point A to point B without any

524
00:31:28,430 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: direct contact with the environment that we're in.

525
00:31:31,490 --> 00:31:33,190
Speaker 1: That's right. Right.

526
00:31:35,390 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: I remain forever just an embarrassment of myself of this

527
00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: day when I was a first year, just finished my

528
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,300
Speaker 2: first year of my PhD studies and we were doing

529
00:31:45,340 --> 00:31:49,020
Speaker 2: this Labor Day picnic. And it was the first time

530
00:31:49,060 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: in my life I had an attached garage to park in.

531
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,140
Speaker 2: And I managed to drive 15 miles and not realize

532
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: that it was chilly out. And I show up in

533
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,580
Speaker 2: shorts and a t-shirt. How can we do that? That

534
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,660
Speaker 2: says something about our abstraction from our environments, from our places.

535
00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:09,530
Speaker 2: But you think about the contrast between, and that's all

536
00:32:09,570 --> 00:32:12,830
Speaker 2: set up for the anecdotes. Here we are as created

537
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:15,610
Speaker 2: to be caretakers of the rest of creation. And I

538
00:32:15,650 --> 00:32:17,470
Speaker 2: want to keep saying rest of because we're part of it,

539
00:32:17,550 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: not above it, not outside it. And yet we have

540
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: the capacity to harm creation and to do so even

541
00:32:27,180 --> 00:32:29,460
Speaker 2: to the point of not knowing we're doing it, right?

542
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:31,420
Speaker 2: You drive down the road and you see dead squirrel,

543
00:32:31,460 --> 00:32:35,460
Speaker 2: dead rabbit. Of course, the dead deer, we can see that.

544
00:32:36,260 --> 00:32:38,460
Speaker 2: That one we know happens, but it's entirely plausible.

545
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

546
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:40,740
Speaker 2: We didn't know that. And I remember this day I

547
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 2: was walking home from the train after work and there

548
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,420
Speaker 2: was a squirrel and the squirrels get confused by the cars, right?

549
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,140
Speaker 2: They dart back and forth as soon as they see

550
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,290
Speaker 2: a car coming and they're quick, but because they're darting

551
00:32:51,330 --> 00:32:54,770
Speaker 2: back and forth confusion, sometimes they'll get hit. And I

552
00:32:54,810 --> 00:32:58,830
Speaker 2: watched one where the car clipped the squirrel's leg and

553
00:32:58,850 --> 00:33:01,350
Speaker 2: I'm walking down the sidewalk and my hands immediately go

554
00:33:01,430 --> 00:33:03,030
Speaker 2: up and I just, my mouth agape.

555
00:33:03,050 --> 00:33:03,950
Speaker 3: Whoa.

556
00:33:03,970 --> 00:33:04,210
Speaker 1: Whoa.

557
00:33:06,490 --> 00:33:08,930
Speaker 2: And the squirrel's not dead. It's one leg clearly broken,

558
00:33:08,970 --> 00:33:11,700
Speaker 2: and now it's gimping in the road. And here comes

559
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 2: the next car because of where that squirrel is and

560
00:33:13,540 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: can't move, and it finishes the job, puts it out

561
00:33:15,620 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: of its misery. And I'm just... To me, I wouldn't

562
00:33:20,060 --> 00:33:22,390
Speaker 2: call it traumatizing in the sense that it stayed with

563
00:33:22,430 --> 00:33:24,950
Speaker 2: me in this deep emotional way, but it was upsetting, right?

564
00:33:25,930 --> 00:33:27,290
Speaker 2: And I have no reason to think that the car

565
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:32,610
Speaker 2: is meant to do it. But they did it. And

566
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:35,310
Speaker 2: the fact that they could do it ignorantly... is a

567
00:33:35,330 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: great travesty of what has happened to us as opposed

568
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,380
Speaker 2: to what we were made to be. But what was

569
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,220
Speaker 2: especially upsetting was the third car that came. And in

570
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,140
Speaker 2: that third car was someone that I knew. You know

571
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,180
Speaker 2: him too, but we'll leave names away. And that person

572
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 2: realized what was happening because he saw me from a distance,

573
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,340
Speaker 2: saw my reaction differently. looked on the road, saw the squirrel,

574
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,660
Speaker 2: and then saw it finished off. And his reaction was,

575
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,540
Speaker 2: this is hilarious. And he starts dying laughing. And the

576
00:34:06,580 --> 00:34:10,540
Speaker 2: next day at work, he brings it up, thinking it's hilarious, laughing.

577
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,820
Speaker 2: And that to me is the contrast, right?

578
00:34:14,030 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

579
00:34:15,250 --> 00:34:19,009
Speaker 2: To be political creatures is to be cognizant of and

580
00:34:19,070 --> 00:34:20,930
Speaker 2: caring of your space and your place.

581
00:34:21,670 --> 00:34:21,870
Speaker 3: Yeah.

582
00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:24,710
Speaker 2: And all that is entailed within that. And that means

583
00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:28,190
Speaker 2: don't just throw the littering stuff on the ground. Be

584
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: attentive to what we're doing to the environment with emissions.

585
00:34:32,460 --> 00:34:35,819
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean there's simple answers. These lithium batteries are

586
00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: pretty damaging in their production processes to the environment. It's

587
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: not clear that that's the ultimate solution. But be attentive

588
00:34:43,140 --> 00:34:46,820
Speaker 2: to it. Be attentive to these machines that get us

589
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,569
Speaker 2: from point A to point B faster than humanity has

590
00:34:49,710 --> 00:34:53,489
Speaker 2: ever before been able to do that abstract you from

591
00:34:53,530 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: your place and make it so that you're accidentally killing

592
00:34:58,020 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 2: the creatures we were supposed to take care of. Think

593
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,140
Speaker 2: about it in the way that we care for our lawns.

594
00:35:03,660 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: These are the things that telescope out from the way

595
00:35:06,140 --> 00:35:11,330
Speaker 2: that I'm hearing Kavanaugh that was really refreshing to larger

596
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:14,810
Speaker 2: political acts that we generally tend to think of. It's

597
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:18,010
Speaker 2: the micro-political acts of the polis that he was concerned

598
00:35:18,050 --> 00:35:20,950
Speaker 2: about that generated the bigger. For him, that came from

599
00:35:21,170 --> 00:35:22,210
Speaker 2: theological conviction.

600
00:35:23,730 --> 00:35:25,770
Speaker 3: I keep going back to the conversation we had with

601
00:35:26,450 --> 00:35:31,370
Speaker 3: Norman Worspa, which will be after this podcast. So people

602
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:34,020
Speaker 3: won't be able to listen to it unless they've got

603
00:35:34,060 --> 00:35:36,460
Speaker 3: the membership that allows them to listen to all of

604
00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:36,940
Speaker 3: our stuff.

605
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: We're time traveling.

606
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,820
Speaker 1: That's right. We're talking about the future. Yes.

607
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 3: But one of the things he brought up was this

608
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,910
Speaker 3: notion of like source, right? Looking beyond, like if you're

609
00:35:50,930 --> 00:35:53,570
Speaker 3: sitting down to eat, think about all that went into

610
00:35:53,630 --> 00:35:54,950
Speaker 3: getting that food on your plate.

611
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:02,510
Speaker 1: Like recognize the effort. And I think more frequently what I've.

612
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:05,310
Speaker 3: Been finding is that I do that with the technology

613
00:36:05,330 --> 00:36:09,790
Speaker 3: that I'm using, right? Technology can feel very distant, like

614
00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:14,850
Speaker 3: you're just interacting with, you know, zeros and ones or whatever,

615
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:20,100
Speaker 3: you know, circuitry and digital mind you're trying to engage.

616
00:36:20,660 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 3: But the reality is there are embodied and fleshed humans

617
00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:30,330
Speaker 3: that are coding these things in. There are natural resources

618
00:36:30,390 --> 00:36:33,750
Speaker 3: being used to do something as mundane as cooling a

619
00:36:33,790 --> 00:36:40,020
Speaker 3: data center. There are actual processes and resources going into

620
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 3: everything that seems so easy for us to use. I

621
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,819
Speaker 3: don't think that should mean that we stop using it,

622
00:36:49,180 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: but I do think that it needs to become a

623
00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: bigger part of our conversations. It's something that we need

624
00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: to be cognizant of and understanding how much is actually

625
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,420
Speaker 3: going into this before we buy in a hundred percent.

626
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 3: You know, he, um, Kavanaugh talked a lot about, you know, Amazon.

627
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,859
Speaker 3: He mentioned Amazon. He doesn't buy off Amazon and those

628
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,580
Speaker 3: kinds of things. I do buy off Amazon.

629
00:37:11,180 --> 00:37:13,899
Speaker 1: Right. Um, and so I will freely admit that.

630
00:37:14,780 --> 00:37:20,090
Speaker 3: Um, but I get why he doesn't, I understand it. Uh,

631
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,430
Speaker 3: I just don't know that, um, I can remember when

632
00:37:24,450 --> 00:37:27,230
Speaker 3: the whole target kerfuffle came up a few years ago

633
00:37:28,469 --> 00:37:32,830
Speaker 3: and there were these podcasters that were calling for target.

634
00:37:32,530 --> 00:37:35,180
Speaker 1: To be sort of banned. I think it was around

635
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: LGBTQ issues or something like that. Right. And my big

636
00:37:39,860 --> 00:37:42,660
Speaker 1: question when I was listening to it was, so where

637
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:44,739
Speaker 1: do you shop? Right.

638
00:37:44,780 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: You can't get away from it. There is a problem

639
00:37:48,219 --> 00:37:52,229
Speaker 2: with every corporate company. That's what we're going to do. Right.

640
00:37:52,810 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 3: And so there's, There's a sense in which I think we,

641
00:37:56,460 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: and I don't say this flippantly, I think we have

642
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,980
Speaker 3: to move from our convictions and sort of pick our poison.

643
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:03,460
Speaker 1: Right.

644
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: I mean, much respect to the people who are going

645
00:38:06,460 --> 00:38:08,589
Speaker 3: to go out in their backyards and grow their gardens

646
00:38:08,660 --> 00:38:14,469
Speaker 3: and raise their chickens and live a fairly sustainable lifestyle

647
00:38:14,530 --> 00:38:17,350
Speaker 3: apart from having to go to a big chain grocery

648
00:38:17,370 --> 00:38:21,910
Speaker 3: store or something like that. I don't live like that.

649
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 3: You know, my sense is that you don't live like that.

650
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,610
Speaker 3: A lot of people don't live like that. And I

651
00:38:27,650 --> 00:38:34,370
Speaker 3: think that cultivating a cognizance of the implications of how

652
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:38,490
Speaker 3: we're living and allowing that to sort of sink into

653
00:38:38,610 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: us so that we begin to change our behavior is

654
00:38:41,660 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 3: probably the more reasonable reaction than living off the grid.

655
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,810
Speaker 3: And I think that was... part of his point, like

656
00:38:52,850 --> 00:38:55,210
Speaker 3: you don't have to live in a tent. I remember

657
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:58,629
Speaker 3: him saying that at one point or live in a mansion, right?

658
00:38:58,670 --> 00:38:59,649
Speaker 1: Tree house. That's right.

659
00:39:00,390 --> 00:39:04,339
Speaker 3: And, and I think that was really helpful, you know, um,

660
00:39:04,610 --> 00:39:08,100
Speaker 3: because we're, we have to sort of realize that all

661
00:39:08,140 --> 00:39:09,980
Speaker 3: of these things that are happening around us in the

662
00:39:10,020 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 3: world are in some ways going to be problematic. And

663
00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:18,330
Speaker 3: even if we pulled completely off the grid, We're never

664
00:39:18,370 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 3: going to get to a point where we are living

665
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,860
Speaker 3: with the land as we used to live with it

666
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 3: in the Garden of Eden.

667
00:39:26,110 --> 00:39:31,510
Speaker 1: We don't get there. And so it. just isn't possible.

668
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 1: That's what fallenness is, right? And so....

669
00:39:37,130 --> 00:39:39,509
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's just part of me that really appreciated his

670
00:39:39,550 --> 00:39:42,250
Speaker 3: comments on that. And I think that we need to

671
00:39:42,370 --> 00:39:45,950
Speaker 3: leave that up to individual discernment for Christians. And when

672
00:39:45,989 --> 00:39:48,620
Speaker 3: I say that, I really do mean that we need

673
00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:52,300
Speaker 3: individual discernment on it. It shouldn't just be our default.

674
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: It should be something we come to. It should be

675
00:39:56,219 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 3: something we question. It should be something we think about.

676
00:39:59,860 --> 00:40:03,150
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be our obsession necessarily. But it

677
00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:06,110
Speaker 3: does need to be something that we are truly, deeply

678
00:40:06,210 --> 00:40:10,370
Speaker 3: cognizant about and, on some level, thankful for.

679
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 2: Tell me what you think about this. I don't want

680
00:40:15,380 --> 00:40:17,940
Speaker 2: to put words in Kavanaugh's mouth, so I'm not at

681
00:40:17,980 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: all saying that he was saying what I'm about to say.

682
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: But this was the sense that I got. Okay, background

683
00:40:24,739 --> 00:40:27,050
Speaker 2: to the sense that I got. We have a tendency

684
00:40:27,140 --> 00:40:31,930
Speaker 2: in our modern world— and again, by modern, I mean— epoch

685
00:40:31,950 --> 00:40:34,690
Speaker 2: of way of the ways in which we envision shaping

686
00:40:34,730 --> 00:40:40,420
Speaker 2: reality right um in our modern world we're very much

687
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: geared towards helping us have some level of control how

688
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,540
Speaker 2: do i know that i know controlling knowledge having objectivity

689
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,969
Speaker 2: being able to separate the things that are subjective from

690
00:40:53,989 --> 00:40:57,450
Speaker 2: the things that are objective gather things that are universal

691
00:40:58,110 --> 00:41:03,050
Speaker 2: that are neutral ostensibly I have my doubts about that project.

692
00:41:03,890 --> 00:41:04,069
Speaker 1: Yeah.

693
00:41:04,830 --> 00:41:06,770
Speaker 2: But that's at least the ways in which we tend

694
00:41:06,810 --> 00:41:10,450
Speaker 2: to default. I'll never forget the day that I, in

695
00:41:10,469 --> 00:41:13,270
Speaker 2: the morning, I was listening to the news radio, and

696
00:41:13,350 --> 00:41:17,069
Speaker 2: every morning it would be, here's the latest study. And

697
00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: one of them was, researchers have discerned that kids who

698
00:41:21,540 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: go to bed earlier tend to be more energetic the

699
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: next day. Exactly my reaction.

700
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:29,780
Speaker 1: Shocker.

701
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,580
Speaker 2: We needed to spend how much money on that one?

702
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: I think every parent in the history of humanity has

703
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,300
Speaker 2: been saying that.

704
00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:42,089
Speaker 1: Hey, guess what? The parents are more energetic than the

705
00:41:42,790 --> 00:41:44,590
Speaker 1: next D2. Amazing, right?

706
00:41:47,150 --> 00:41:51,190
Speaker 2: It makes sense. If we get full rest, then we

707
00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:52,250
Speaker 2: are more energetic.

708
00:41:52,610 --> 00:41:53,030
Speaker 1: Great.

709
00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:56,089
Speaker 2: But why do we need that kind of study is

710
00:41:56,110 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 2: the real question. Because of the ways in which we've

711
00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 2: got a stranglehold on the production of knowledge, the bases

712
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,540
Speaker 2: from which we determine knowledge counts as knowledge, and then

713
00:42:07,580 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 2: how we can then use that to create a fuller society,

714
00:42:11,260 --> 00:42:17,870
Speaker 2: a polis. What I heard Kavanaugh saying, and it at

715
00:42:17,930 --> 00:42:19,410
Speaker 2: the very least is the way that I want to

716
00:42:19,450 --> 00:42:26,170
Speaker 2: think of things like the theological enterprise, is that We

717
00:42:26,190 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: need to spend less time thinking about public life, political life,

718
00:42:32,420 --> 00:42:36,219
Speaker 2: theological life, church life as a science, and more time

719
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: thinking of it as an art.

720
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

721
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,150
Speaker 2: Now, art is hard to control, and art will have interpretations,

722
00:42:42,210 --> 00:42:45,850
Speaker 2: and art will have more obvious disagreements, though it's worth

723
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:48,650
Speaker 2: noting scientific discourses have tons of disagreements.

724
00:42:49,110 --> 00:42:49,390
Speaker 3: Right.

725
00:42:49,469 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 2: That's where we get these monographs and these peer-reviewed journals.

726
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: There's no settling of issues.

727
00:42:56,180 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 3: Right.

728
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: Or if there is a settling, it creates new issues.

729
00:43:01,660 --> 00:43:05,740
Speaker 2: But in the artistic realm, there is an attentiveness to

730
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:14,430
Speaker 2: recognizing what is beautiful. But what is beautiful, ostensibly, right?

731
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:16,649
Speaker 2: I realize that in the arts, people would say, we're

732
00:43:16,670 --> 00:43:18,790
Speaker 2: not trying to make what's beautiful. But ostensibly, what is

733
00:43:18,870 --> 00:43:21,810
Speaker 2: beautiful is related to what is good and what is

734
00:43:21,870 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 2: related to what is true. Mm-hmm. And if we spend

735
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,980
Speaker 2: less time thinking about the political as a science to

736
00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: control with our studies and with our carefully formulated ecosystems

737
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,870
Speaker 2: in which we have our news channel that tells us

738
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:39,970
Speaker 2: what we want to hear and reports on our issues

739
00:43:40,050 --> 00:43:43,609
Speaker 2: from our angle, and we think of more as life

740
00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:47,250
Speaker 2: together as an art that's imprecise, that can be beautiful,

741
00:43:48,969 --> 00:43:50,890
Speaker 2: then we can start to arrive at the sorts of

742
00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:57,339
Speaker 2: things that I think we're driving Kavanaugh's conclusions uh the

743
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: ways that he sought to to live out the political

744
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,260
Speaker 2: life on on these telescopic or concentric ways right moving

745
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: from the personal to the communal and the ecclesial and

746
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,739
Speaker 2: ultimately the way that he saw his involvement in the

747
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,210
Speaker 2: state without the control mechanisms what do you think about.

748
00:44:15,090 --> 00:44:16,820
Speaker 1: That I agree.

749
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that we didn't talk a ton

750
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 3: about the true, the good, and the beautiful, but I

751
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:24,299
Speaker 3: think that that factors in a good bit to what

752
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,450
Speaker 3: we need to be thinking about. You know, for Christians

753
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:31,790
Speaker 3: to recognize what God has already set forth as good, true,

754
00:44:31,850 --> 00:44:35,410
Speaker 3: and beautiful is important. We need to recognize that aspect

755
00:44:35,450 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 3: of reality wherever it's found. And then we need to

756
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 3: lean into it, play into it. Our posture needs to

757
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,469
Speaker 3: be toward it, not against it. And I think that

758
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:52,110
Speaker 3: sometimes we get a little too analytical, to your point,

759
00:44:52,330 --> 00:44:56,370
Speaker 3: a little too, there's a great line in one of the,

760
00:44:57,230 --> 00:45:02,180
Speaker 3: it's a book on the matter with things. It's written by, boy,

761
00:45:02,190 --> 00:45:07,190
Speaker 3: I'm going to blank on the guy's name, but the

762
00:45:07,230 --> 00:45:11,610
Speaker 3: matter with things is the book title. And the author

763
00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:14,989
Speaker 3: writes something like, we tend to think that we can

764
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 3: control the world by pulling levers and pushing buttons. But

765
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 3: every time we try to control the world, we end

766
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:29,420
Speaker 3: up messing more things up because we don't really understand

767
00:45:29,460 --> 00:45:33,510
Speaker 3: the world. In other words, our manipulations of the world

768
00:45:33,610 --> 00:45:37,090
Speaker 3: tend to create more problems because as we try to

769
00:45:37,130 --> 00:45:40,330
Speaker 3: manipulate it, we're doing so from such a deficit in

770
00:45:40,390 --> 00:45:45,330
Speaker 3: understanding that that we can't see how pulling this lever

771
00:45:45,370 --> 00:45:48,310
Speaker 3: and pushing this button only solves some sort of a

772
00:45:48,330 --> 00:45:51,610
Speaker 3: near-term problem for us, but they create these long-term problems

773
00:45:51,650 --> 00:45:57,860
Speaker 3: for us. And I think that there's something to that, right?

774
00:45:58,890 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 3: And so this understanding of the world, I don't think

775
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 3: can be encapsulated in the sort of analytics that science

776
00:46:06,660 --> 00:46:10,180
Speaker 3: tends to focus on. It can include it, but it

777
00:46:10,219 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: can't encompass it. it has to also include these sort

778
00:46:15,260 --> 00:46:18,380
Speaker 3: of art forms that you're talking about. This notion of

779
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,609
Speaker 3: when I look out and I look at a beautiful

780
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:24,410
Speaker 3: blue sky, I can legitimately call it beautiful and recognize

781
00:46:24,430 --> 00:46:29,310
Speaker 3: it as such. And I don't need any other sort of,

782
00:46:29,310 --> 00:46:31,130
Speaker 3: I don't need to know why the sky is blue.

783
00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:34,529
Speaker 3: I don't need to understand the science behind clouds. I

784
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:39,450
Speaker 3: don't need to understand how the physics work. I don't

785
00:46:39,469 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 3: need to know any of those other things. I can

786
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,580
Speaker 3: just simply recognize that the world that God has given

787
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,990
Speaker 3: us is beautiful, that there is an order to it,

788
00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 3: and that I need to live into that order. And

789
00:46:52,020 --> 00:46:54,580
Speaker 3: so I think that there is definitely something to that.

790
00:46:54,739 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 3: And when I hear Kavanaugh talk, I don't think he's

791
00:46:57,820 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 3: trying to, and maybe this is an aspect of the

792
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: point that you're not emphasizing as much, but it's one

793
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:05,700
Speaker 3: that I've thought about a good bit, so I'll throw

794
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,230
Speaker 3: it in there. I don't think he was saying, look, everybody,

795
00:47:10,290 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 3: here's how we fix the world. I think what he's

796
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:20,580
Speaker 3: saying is aligned with something more like our responsibility is

797
00:47:20,620 --> 00:47:22,660
Speaker 3: not to fix the world. It's to live faithfully in

798
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,219
Speaker 3: a world so broken only God can fix it. And

799
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,830
Speaker 3: so when we try to manipulate to fix, when we

800
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:34,529
Speaker 3: try to manipulate to make our situation better, when we

801
00:47:34,570 --> 00:47:39,750
Speaker 3: try to manipulate to assert our self-sufficiency or feel more

802
00:47:39,790 --> 00:47:45,049
Speaker 3: secure or We're inevitably doing something to the world that

803
00:47:45,090 --> 00:47:48,430
Speaker 3: may not actually be helping the world. It's only helping us.

804
00:47:50,070 --> 00:47:57,220
Speaker 3: And we are not particularly good at long suffering within

805
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 3: the broken relationship that is our fallen condition and saying,

806
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 3: these are the consequences that we must live with because

807
00:48:04,860 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 3: of our sins. We're more inclined to say, I don't

808
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,860
Speaker 3: see why I should live with these consequences if I

809
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,940
Speaker 3: could overcome them technologically.

810
00:48:15,940 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, he mentioned, to your point, that pretty provocative tagline

811
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,469
Speaker 2: of the fall is a hopeful or a … It's optimistic.

812
00:48:25,489 --> 00:48:28,890
Speaker 2: I can't remember the exact word, but it was an optimistic.

813
00:48:28,930 --> 00:48:31,630
Speaker 2: That's what it was, an optimistic doctrine, which on the

814
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:35,190
Speaker 2: face of it seems utterly bizarre.

815
00:48:35,230 --> 00:48:35,690
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

816
00:48:36,810 --> 00:48:39,970
Speaker 2: But his point, his defense of it was, I thought,

817
00:48:40,370 --> 00:48:43,790
Speaker 2: quite compelling. And that's to say that the reality of

818
00:48:43,830 --> 00:48:46,700
Speaker 2: fallenness and the reality of the fall actually points to

819
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 2: the possibility of something better. And to your point, the

820
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: question is, what is that better? Is it something that

821
00:48:52,420 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: we create that better, or is it something that we

822
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 2: witness to?

823
00:48:55,860 --> 00:48:57,010
Speaker 1: That's right.

824
00:48:57,730 --> 00:48:59,390
Speaker 2: And I think that larger point is it's something we

825
00:48:59,430 --> 00:49:01,850
Speaker 2: witness to, such that, here we go, ready for this?

826
00:49:02,130 --> 00:49:05,189
Speaker 2: As Gandalf says, we have a fool's hope.

827
00:49:05,210 --> 00:49:05,470
Speaker 3: Okay.

828
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,140
Speaker 2: There's a fool's hope, right? And what I think he

829
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: means by the fool's hope is that it's not our

830
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,910
Speaker 2: strivings that accomplish this new thing, but that doesn't mean

831
00:49:17,950 --> 00:49:18,730
Speaker 2: don't strive.

832
00:49:18,750 --> 00:49:19,969
Speaker 1: That's right.

833
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: Because what our strivings do is they testify to the

834
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 2: hope of something that can't be fulfilled from within our

835
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,430
Speaker 2: structures and systems that can only come from the outside

836
00:49:29,450 --> 00:49:33,330
Speaker 2: that's right right so to me personally i was doing

837
00:49:33,350 --> 00:49:35,530
Speaker 2: this the other day when i was playing some basketball

838
00:49:35,550 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 2: in the park at night I looked up and I

839
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,820
Speaker 2: realized Venus was shining bright in the sky and utterly glorious.

840
00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 2: And the way that Tolkien tries to draw this out,

841
00:49:44,380 --> 00:49:47,259
Speaker 2: this fool's hope is to remind us, he, he, he

842
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:54,110
Speaker 2: says more academically, he says without Thor lightning and thunder

843
00:49:54,170 --> 00:49:55,350
Speaker 2: are just lightning and thunder.

844
00:49:56,410 --> 00:49:56,649
Speaker 3: Yeah.

845
00:49:56,810 --> 00:49:58,969
Speaker 2: But when Thor enters into the mix, we now have

846
00:49:59,010 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: a story around it that enriches our imagination, allows us

847
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,110
Speaker 2: to think that there's more at play than just, the

848
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: physics of it which by the way the physics of

849
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,549
Speaker 2: all that in the blue sky is actually a beautiful

850
00:50:07,590 --> 00:50:10,660
Speaker 2: thing so that's not a generation of that it's quite

851
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,860
Speaker 2: awe-inspiring but the larger point is it's an enchanting it's

852
00:50:13,900 --> 00:50:16,940
Speaker 2: a recognizing there's more than just this and so he

853
00:50:16,980 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 2: does this when he when we see venus he wants

854
00:50:19,540 --> 00:50:21,379
Speaker 2: us to see the light of arendelle and we won't

855
00:50:21,500 --> 00:50:23,899
Speaker 2: go into that right now but for him the light

856
00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 2: of arendelle is a point of saying there is hope

857
00:50:26,540 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 2: but that hope comes from outside the the structures that

858
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:36,009
Speaker 2: rule our enclosures of the world That's right. And for

859
00:50:36,050 --> 00:50:37,750
Speaker 2: me to be able to look up and see Venus

860
00:50:37,950 --> 00:50:42,070
Speaker 2: and to have all that rich narrative behind it is beautiful.

861
00:50:42,090 --> 00:50:43,899
Speaker 2: It's really hopeful to me. And that's the fool's hope.

862
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,060
Speaker 2: But the point again is don't stop striving. Don't seek

863
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,819
Speaker 2: to make pictures of what is to come. But it's

864
00:50:52,860 --> 00:50:54,670
Speaker 2: just that, right? Don't lose sight of the fact that

865
00:50:54,690 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 2: it's also pictures of what is to come. And what comes,

866
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:01,820
Speaker 2: comes from outside the structures. And that's the work of

867
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 2: God in Christ by his holy breath.

868
00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:05,860
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.

869
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 3: And maybe we close with this because we're getting toward

870
00:51:09,180 --> 00:51:11,630
Speaker 3: the end of time here. But I would say I've

871
00:51:11,650 --> 00:51:13,630
Speaker 3: been teaching through Hebrews. And one of the things that

872
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:17,509
Speaker 3: Hebrews emphasizes is you have these sacrifices that had to

873
00:51:17,550 --> 00:51:22,009
Speaker 3: be performed year over year over year over year, daily, weekly,

874
00:51:22,690 --> 00:51:27,490
Speaker 3: ongoing by a priest who is incapable even of forgiving

875
00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:30,700
Speaker 3: his own sins. He's got to make sacrifice even for himself.

876
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,540
Speaker 3: And then he's got to make sacrifices for the people.

877
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 3: And that these sacrifices were not bad or evil in

878
00:51:37,420 --> 00:51:43,170
Speaker 3: some way. And they could not be set aside. They

879
00:51:43,210 --> 00:51:46,430
Speaker 3: had to be practiced. But in the practice of them,

880
00:51:47,350 --> 00:51:52,210
Speaker 3: there's a gesturing forward. there's this notion that even though

881
00:51:52,230 --> 00:51:54,390
Speaker 3: you have to continue putting the effort in, and even

882
00:51:54,430 --> 00:51:57,340
Speaker 3: though you know that this effort is never ending, it

883
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 3: can actually accomplish what you're hoping it will accomplish. It

884
00:52:01,140 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 3: can't go beyond its own capabilities. We could say it

885
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,410
Speaker 3: like that. It has an efficaciousness, but it's a limited efficaciousness.

886
00:52:10,170 --> 00:52:14,290
Speaker 3: And you're always looking for something more. And so you're

887
00:52:14,310 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 3: grateful that, for the effort that you're able to put in.

888
00:52:17,060 --> 00:52:19,660
Speaker 3: You're grateful that these things have been provided to you.

889
00:52:19,739 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 3: You're grateful that you get to participate in these things

890
00:52:24,020 --> 00:52:26,460
Speaker 3: at the same time that you're lamenting the fact that

891
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 3: you have to.

892
00:52:29,020 --> 00:52:31,660
Speaker 1: And you're looking forward to a time when you don't.

893
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 3: It's sort of this weird mix of emotions that we

894
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:38,479
Speaker 3: have as we read the book of Hebrews, I think,

895
00:52:39,100 --> 00:52:44,029
Speaker 3: which is saying, you know, not everything that was pre-Christ

896
00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:48,500
Speaker 3: was horrible. But it's saying everything that was pre-Christ was

897
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 3: pointing to Jesus, and now we have him. And life

898
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,859
Speaker 3: has now changed. The things that people were looking forward to,

899
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,620
Speaker 3: part of those have come. And so we're not living

900
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 3: in this world where we have to continue doing these

901
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,729
Speaker 3: sort of actions that we were.

902
00:53:04,650 --> 00:53:05,650
Speaker 1: Doing ad nauseum.

903
00:53:05,730 --> 00:53:09,750
Speaker 3: We now have a certain degree of difference within our lives.

904
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 3: where that sort of effort doesn't need to be put in,

905
00:53:13,219 --> 00:53:16,020
Speaker 3: but other sorts of effort do, because we still haven't

906
00:53:16,060 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 3: achieved what Christ has achieved. We're now looking forward in

907
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 3: a slightly different manner to what has gone on. We

908
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 3: have a clearer picture of what these things were pointing to.

909
00:53:25,620 --> 00:53:29,410
Speaker 3: And that changes now even more how we live in this,

910
00:53:30,170 --> 00:53:33,750
Speaker 3: not a torturous world, but a world where we.

911
00:53:35,410 --> 00:53:37,650
Speaker 1: Definitely feel the effects.

912
00:53:38,730 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 3: Of the sins that we have committed. And I think

913
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:46,620
Speaker 3: that that is sort of that biblical way of saying

914
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 3: fool's hope, right? It's this notion of the effort is

915
00:53:52,850 --> 00:53:55,270
Speaker 3: put in without ever thinking the effort is going to

916
00:53:55,350 --> 00:53:58,229
Speaker 3: achieve or even maybe knowing that the effort is not

917
00:53:58,290 --> 00:54:02,610
Speaker 3: going to achieve what you're hoping for long term. But

918
00:54:02,650 --> 00:54:06,630
Speaker 3: the effort is not meaningless. It just can't be ultimate.

919
00:54:07,590 --> 00:54:12,549
Speaker 3: And those are two very different things. So, um, so yeah,

920
00:54:12,590 --> 00:54:14,610
Speaker 3: I mean, I think, and I think that's instructive for

921
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 3: the way we think about polis and politics and political engagement.

922
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 3: And I really do think that Kavanaugh is, um, especially

923
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 3: in his work, but also in the podcast has, and

924
00:54:26,860 --> 00:54:30,130
Speaker 3: was pointing towards some of those aspects. And so I

925
00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:32,549
Speaker 3: very much appreciate that about him and his work and,

926
00:54:33,130 --> 00:54:33,989
Speaker 3: and that conversation.

927
00:54:34,010 --> 00:54:35,500
Speaker 2: So, Great.

928
00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: I thought it was, it was an honor having him on.

929
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,940
Speaker 1: I was glad he agreed to come on. You know,

930
00:54:39,980 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 1: we were both a little bit.

931
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:41,939
Speaker 3: Yeah.

932
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I was fanboying out a little bit. I

933
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 1: tried not to let it show, but.

934
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 2: Oh, it should.

935
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

936
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,620
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, listen, you know, if we ever get

937
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 3: Stanley Harawas on the podcast, you'll see a little more,

938
00:54:54,140 --> 00:55:00,899
Speaker 3: it's going to be more inappropriate. So anyway, well, that's

939
00:55:00,940 --> 00:55:04,290
Speaker 3: our debrief on Kavanaugh. And so if you haven't listened

940
00:55:04,310 --> 00:55:06,970
Speaker 3: to that episode, check it out. If you have, hopefully

941
00:55:07,010 --> 00:55:10,430
Speaker 3: this was helpful to reframe some things. And keep coming back.

942
00:55:10,450 --> 00:55:14,050
Speaker 3: We're doing the series on faith and politics. So next episode,

943
00:55:14,070 --> 00:55:16,109
Speaker 3: we're going to have somebody else on talking about faith

944
00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:17,090
Speaker 3: and politics.

945
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:17,470
Speaker 1: From different angles.

946
00:55:18,370 --> 00:55:20,549
Speaker 3: We've got some great guests that have been on the

947
00:55:20,570 --> 00:55:23,779
Speaker 3: show thus far and some more good ones coming. So

948
00:55:23,900 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 3: stick around. Come back for the next episode of Thinking

949
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 3: Christian and take care until then.