1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer, 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged, 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with 7 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert, 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened, 11 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour. 15 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio, 16 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history, 18 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and 19 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more 20 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German 22 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard, 23 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series, 24 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places, 25 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping 26 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. 27 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: So let's get started. 28 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome back to this episode of Thinking Christian. 29 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: We're continuing our series on the German Reformation, and we 30 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: are now moving to the Diet of Verms or toward 31 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: the Diet of Verms, and ultimately on de Vortburg. But 32 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: before we get there, we're going to stick around in 33 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: Wittenburg a little longer and talk to the ninety five Theces. 34 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: So we reference to the end of the last episode 35 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: that Luther had written these ninety five thess. Everybody kind 36 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: of knows about the ninety five Theces. If you know 37 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: anything about Martin Luther, that's kind of what you know. 38 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: Justification by Faith ninety five Theces. Ninety five Theces are 39 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: really interesting. They have a really interesting sort of backstory 40 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: and it's an actually pretty important to understand what Luther's 41 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: trying to do and what Luther ends up actually doing. So, Greg, 42 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: why don't we start with He's going to nail these 43 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: ninety five feces to the door of the church in 44 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: the town. What's Luther trying to stir up here when 45 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: he's doing that? 46 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the backstory is the selling of indulgences. So 47 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 3: you know we've gone over indulgences before, but the backstory 48 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 3: for this one is interesting and I always used to 49 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 3: explain it to my students at Moody this way. Sometimes 50 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 3: churches go wacky when they get into building programs. So 51 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 3: you may be familiar with this insignificant little church building 52 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 3: enrollm It's called Saint Peter's, small little place in the 53 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: Vatican City. 54 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: Don't know nothing ornate about it at all. 55 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: That's right. 56 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 4: It's a multi purpose building. 57 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 3: You know, they have a wan of clubs in there 58 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: and then they set up chairs for Sunday. 59 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 60 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: Well, so you know, if you're going to hire Michelangelo 61 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 3: and sons and et cetera, this is gonna cost a 62 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 3: lot of money. So they want to build this church 63 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 3: and they need money. And there's the archbishop who wants 64 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: to buy who wants to be the archbishop of Mines. 65 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: And he's not supposed to be able to be the 66 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 3: archbishop of two places at once. 67 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: But he. 68 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 3: Goes to the Pope, and the Pope says, all right, 69 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: I'll cut you a deal if you will give me 70 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 3: this amount of money because I needed to pay to 71 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 3: get this church built. I'll let you be the archbishop 72 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: of I believe it's Mines. Okay, fair enough. So he 73 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 3: comes back and he says, well, I don't have the money, okay, 74 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: well you can borrow it from the fuguer bankers. Okay, Well, 75 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: how am I going to pay him back? I got 76 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 3: this great idea. I'll let you sell indulgence okay, And 77 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: I got a very good salesman. His name is Johan Tetzel. 78 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 3: He's a Dominican. 79 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: Here we go. 80 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: They're a teaching order he's got, and he's selling these things, 81 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 3: and he's even got a jingle. As soon as the 82 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: wrong a coin in the coffer do ring another soul 83 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: from purgatory doest spring. So he starts going around selling 84 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: these things to make money so they can pay off 85 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 3: this loan. That you see how the story goes, Okay, 86 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 3: So he's going around and he ends up in a 87 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 3: not in Wittenberg, but a town close to Wittenberg selling 88 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: these things. So some of Luther's parishioners go there and 89 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: buy them. They come back and show them to it. Well, 90 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: Luther is just he thinks this is ridiculous. He thinks 91 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: the Pope doesn't know this is happening. 92 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 4: So he. 93 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 3: Does what academics do, and they you know, we need 94 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 3: to debate these things, and we need to have a 95 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 3: conversation about them in yad, YadA YadA. So he writes 96 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: out ninety five points of debate, ninety five assertions, ninety 97 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: five thesises that I believe you. 98 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: Know ding ding ding ding ding, And these. 99 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 3: Are points that he is asserting that he's willing to debate. 100 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 4: Is the way this works. 101 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 3: There's some debate about whether or not he actually nailed 102 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 3: them on the door of the castle church. I personally 103 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 3: think he probably did. But he puts these on a 104 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,799 Speaker 3: door on this church. It's kind of like a forum 105 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 3: board and be like Facebook today, except it's obviously in 106 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 3: the town of Wittenberg, which is a very small little town. 107 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,559 Speaker 3: He's going to have this debate. Well, two things happen. 108 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 3: Number one, there's this new technology called printing press. Number two, 109 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 3: he has students. Students like to popularize their professor. So 110 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 3: somehow these things get printed and translated and sent all 111 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 3: over the place, to the point that one of them 112 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 3: ends up a copy of them ends up literally on 113 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 3: the Pope's desk in Rome. This does not go well, 114 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: and so Luther is called to defend himself. 115 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 4: Thus the ball starts rolling. 116 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: So what he has done is he's written these things 117 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 3: saying this selling adulgence in dulgs is. 118 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 4: Not a good thing. People. 119 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 3: Should you know he's saying, among other things, who can 120 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 3: say whether the pope has power over purgatory? And if 121 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: he does, you should empty the place for free rough paraphrase, 122 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 3: among other things, which, of course you know that cuts 123 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 3: the fundraising off. 124 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 2: It goes over like a blood balloon, like a lead balloon. 125 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: And then there's all kinds of other stuff, and you know, 126 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 3: it's technical stuff that you have to read in multiple 127 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: encyclopedia is to understand the details of all this kind 128 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: of stuff. 129 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: But and I mentioned. 130 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 3: Before in the previous broadcast about it starts off with 131 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 3: Pennance when our Lord and Savior said repent. He didn't 132 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: mean two penance. He meant the entire life of the 133 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 3: Christian is to be one of repentance, et cetera, et cetera. 134 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: And he goes through a variety of these things, ninety 135 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: five of these things. 136 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: And they all do tend to swirl around that penance, indulgences, 137 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: purgatory like that sort of arenas. We're all ninety five 138 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: of them. Some are more granular, some of them are 139 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: more more top level, but they all tend to hover 140 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: around those major topics. 141 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: Right, So there's not like the Joshua lived by faith 142 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: alone or. 143 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: Anything like that. 144 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 3: It's mostly around purgatory, questions of authority, et cetera, et cetera, 145 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: et cetera. So this thing becomes what was supposed to 146 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: be a nice little bait debate in a little town. 147 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 4: And if it Burgh is a it's. 148 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 3: A spit town in the middle of nowhere, it's still 149 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 3: a spit town in the middle of well, the old city. 150 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 3: It's really about three streets and each one's about a mile. 151 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: Long, right, I mean it's extended a little more modern day, 152 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: but it's still not a booming metropolis. 153 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. 154 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 3: So this was when if you've ever been to Rome 155 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: and then you go to Wittenberg, You're like, you got 156 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 3: to be kidding. 157 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: Me, so uh. 158 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: You know, it'd be like Peoria, Illinois turning New York 159 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 3: City upside down. So this is this is what happens. Actually, 160 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 3: Peru Illinois would. 161 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: Be better there you go, yeah, yeah. 162 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: Or Sycamore, Illinois or you know Booger Hollow, Arkansas turning 163 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: New York City on its head. 164 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 4: So so it. 165 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 3: And it just explodes and and Luther becomes a major 166 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 3: figure because he's gonna upset the apple cart and people 167 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 3: understand he's gonna upset the apple cart. Was that his intent? No, 168 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 3: but that's functionally what's gonna happen. 169 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting, Like when you hear that story, 170 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: it it's so much different than I think what I 171 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: had on my head before a visited Wittenberg and be 172 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: really understood the history of it because you think, like 173 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: this is the only thing on these doors, Like nobody 174 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: does this, right. He went up just in defiance and 175 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: nails this thing to and it's like no, it's sort 176 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: of like you're putting a little ad on a bulletin 177 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: board and it's like here you go i'd like to 178 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: I'd like to think about these things, you know. And 179 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: while Luther probably does give off an air of defiance 180 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: and a lot of his writings and I'm guessing he 181 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: was a pretty powerful figure in person, this situation almost 182 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: gets blown out of proportion by the technology. 183 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 4: Of the day. 184 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: Yes, because his students can copy this thing easily and quickly, 185 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: it spreads faster than it probably ever would have, if 186 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: it even would have ever spread prior to having the 187 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: printing press and having you know, the students sort of 188 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: copy it and send it exactly completely different animal than 189 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: what would have happened any other time before. You know, 190 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: he might have ended up in a debate with the 191 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: guy who's you know, two towns over selling indulgences, and 192 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: then it kind of fizzles out and you move on. 193 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 2: That's right. 194 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: But now it's basically like he's you know, social media 195 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: took over, and now he's he's in danger of being 196 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: canceled by the Roman Empire. 197 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 4: That's exactly exactly right. 198 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: He's going to end up being excommunicated by the pope 199 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 3: and then before the emperor and declared an outlaw, and 200 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 3: on and on and on and on and on. 201 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, because the people Bull comes prior to his the 202 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: diet of Firms? Am I correct about that? 203 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 2: Okay? 204 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 3: He has a debate at Leipzig in fifteen nineteen, and 205 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: that's important. There is one of the places where he 206 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: talks about the authority of scripture over popes. And there's 207 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 3: also a guy named Martin Bousser, who very few people 208 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 3: have heard of but is very important, who's going to 209 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 3: be converted there. Booster is later going to be a colleague, 210 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 3: almost a pastor for John Calvin. Booster is also going 211 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 3: to be involved with Michael Satler, who is going to 212 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: be one of the early Anabaptists, kind of the forerunners 213 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 3: of the Mennonites. Booster is also going to be involved 214 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 3: with Thomas Cranmer, who wrote the thirty nine articles for 215 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 3: the Church of England. So Booster is a connector guy 216 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 3: that most people have never heard of, but he's connecting 217 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 3: these people anyway. So fifteen twenty papabull exerge dominie arise o, 218 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 3: Lord and strike. There's a wild boar at loose in 219 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 3: your vineyard in Germany, you know, and on and on 220 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 3: and on, and Luther gets this thing. It turns out 221 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 3: a bunch of his students had gathered and they were 222 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: burning copies of canon law. And you know, you and 223 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 3: I have been there just outside of actually the Augustinian 224 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 3: monastery that he was in in Wittenberg turned into his house, ye, 225 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: and they there's an oak tree out from there, not 226 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 3: the original, but they gathered around this oak tree and 227 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 3: they take all these books of canon law and they're 228 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 3: burning them, and down with the pope and YadA YadA, 229 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: and Luther comes out and he's got the papal bull 230 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: and kind of like, okay, he threw it in too, 231 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: so he burns this thing. So okay, now it's you know, 232 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 3: the fast in the fire. In this case, the bull's 233 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 3: in the fire. And so his elector, Frederick the Wise, 234 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 3: for reasons known only to the Lord, keeps on protecting 235 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 3: it because remember he is Frederick the Wise. 236 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: Frederick the Wise is who we're talking about. So Frederick 237 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: Wwise isn't going to protect Martin. 238 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: Luther go ahead, and. 239 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 3: Frederick the Wise has all these relics that are getting 240 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: time off purgatory, and Luther's undercutting all this stuff, but 241 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 3: for whatever reason, he protects him. So Luther, you know, 242 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: it's being protected and the Emperor is demanding that Frederick 243 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,359 Speaker 3: the Wise turn. 244 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 4: Luther over to him so we can give him to 245 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 4: the Pope Frankly to kill him. 246 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 247 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 3: So finally Frederick the Wise says, look, he's entitled to 248 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 3: hearing before you. So they go to a place in Germany, 249 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 3: the city of Forms spelled worms worms, and there's an 250 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 3: imperial diet, an imperial council there. The Emperor is there 251 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 3: with a representative from the Pope, and Luther is guaranteed 252 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 3: safe passage there. The Emperor says, okay, I'll guarantee you 253 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 3: safe passage there. Now, Luther's not stupid. There had been 254 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 3: a guy named John huss a check guy who you know, 255 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: about one hundred years before, had been guaranteed safe passage 256 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 3: by an emperor and showed up and once he got there, 257 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: they said, oh, sorry, we forgot about that and burned 258 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 3: him at the stake. Nonetheless, he says, I'm going to go, 259 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: you know, and so he goes. He has this meeting. 260 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: He thinks he's going to get a chance to defend 261 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: his ideas. 262 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: The Emperor. 263 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 3: Has him there for one reason, and that is for 264 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 3: him to recant to say I was wrong. So they 265 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 3: are very different expectations going into this. So they meet 266 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: Luther's all prepared to have this debate, and the debater 267 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 3: for the Roman Church says, Luther, do you repent of 268 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 3: your ideas well? First he says, are these your books? 269 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: And he has all these tables out with Luther's books 270 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: and he says, yeah, these are mine. I've written more 271 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: than these two, okay. 272 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: And then the question is are you going to repent 273 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 3: of the errors in your books? And Luther's like, wait 274 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: a minute, I want to have a chance to defend myself. No, no, no, no, 275 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 3: simple question. Are you gonna recant or not? And Luther says, well, now, 276 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 3: wait a minute. This is a matter of eternal salvation 277 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 3: and this is really important, So give me twenty four hours. 278 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 2: Okay. So they say see in the morning. 279 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 3: He goes into his place where he's staying, and we 280 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 3: have a copy of the prayer that he wrote. I 281 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 3: don't have it on me, but it's it's basically I'm 282 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 3: paraphrasing Lord. I don't want to be here. I'd rather 283 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: be back in Wittenberg, you know, doing my work. But 284 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 3: you called me to this task. You know you have 285 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: to stand by me. Please help me and then he 286 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 3: adds a PS send help. Scared gets up early in 287 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 3: the next morning and he says, Okay, here's the deal. 288 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 3: You want an answer. I'm going to answer without horns 289 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 3: and without teeth, which is, I won't make any tricks. 290 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 3: I won't this. I'm going to give it these straight 291 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 3: popes and councils have rid in past. Unless I'm convinced 292 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 3: by scripture and plain reason, I cannot and will not recant. 293 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: My conscience has helped held captives of the Word of God, 294 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 3: and then here I stand. 295 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 2: I can do no other God help me. Amen. 296 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 3: Whether or not he said here I stand is debated, 297 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 3: but the basic premise of this is unless you can 298 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 3: show me that what I have written is wrong based 299 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 3: on the Bible, I will not repent. Place goes up 300 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 3: for grabs. Luther leaves, he's been guaranteed safe passage. It 301 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 3: starts to go home, gets kidnapped, but he's not kidnapped. 302 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: These are agents of Frederick the Wise, and they kidnap him. 303 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 3: To what extent Luther knew what was going on, we 304 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 3: don't know. But they took him and put him in 305 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 3: a kind of a quasi abandoned castle in the city 306 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 3: of Eisenach. It was called the Vartberg Castle, and he 307 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 3: is hidden in this castle. He grows a beard, calls 308 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 3: himself Sir George Knight, George, Yunker George. And while he's there, 309 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 3: he's translating the Bible or the New Testament into German, 310 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 3: which he does in a remarkably short period of time, 311 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 3: something like a couple months or some ridiculous thing. It's 312 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 3: an extraordinary work. But he does the New Testament into 313 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 3: German in a short period of time. Will all these 314 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 3: hiding out in this castle? 315 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: So when we think about that act, so you've got, 316 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, this guy who's sort of challenging the pope's 317 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: authority to maybe we could say, like sit above the scriptures. 318 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: That's essentially how this is functioning is that the Bible 319 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: can be ignored if the pope says it. It doesn't really 320 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: matter what the Bible says. These two things don't really 321 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 1: have to be in that strong a conversation, might be 322 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: the most generous way to put it. Luther's saying, no, 323 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: they really have to be in pretty strong conversation. The 324 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: Bible should be the final authority for life and faith, 325 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: which is the way I would phrase it, you know, 326 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: sort of in today's vernacular. And so we now have 327 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: to start thinking about how does that happen. In other words, 328 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: we're sitting in a time where the Bible is primarily 329 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: contained in Latin and Greek manuscripts that aren't going to 330 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: be particularly accessible to everyday folk. And if you don't 331 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: get them the Bible, a Bible that they can read 332 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: and understand to some degree, even if they need to 333 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: have help interpreting it, they're always going to be subject 334 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: to the ruling class who are reading out of the 335 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: Latin vulgate and just telling them what to do and 336 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: how to do it. 337 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 4: You can't. 338 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: You have to bridge the gap somehow between you know, 339 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: Luther's conviction that my consciousness has held captive to the 340 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: word of God and the idea that no one has 341 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: access to the Word of God. Yes, and so this 342 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: is where translation really starts to ramp up in importance. 343 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a couple of things going on. Your dreams 344 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 3: are important, number one is, and this is where it's 345 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 3: easy to shove modern thought into the process. Does Luther 346 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 3: believe in the right of private interpretation? That is, does 347 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 3: he believe that every person has the right to determine 348 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 3: for themselves what the Bible means. No, he does not, 349 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 3: which is why he writes a catechism. Right, so he says, 350 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 3: before he dies, you know, pretty much everything I wrote 351 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 3: you can burn. It doesn't matter. The only thing that 352 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 3: matters is shorter catechism. And here's how I explain how 353 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 3: a catechism works. Does Luther want people to read the Bible? 354 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 3: Of course he does. 355 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 356 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 3: In fact, he says, if a father doesn't teach his 357 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: son a trade, he's a bad father. Now listen, if 358 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 3: he doesn't teach his children, gender inclusive, how to read, 359 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: he ought to be damned. Why because of the scriptures? 360 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 2: Yeah? 361 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 3: Having that, does he think that people should sit down 362 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 3: by themselves and determine what the Bible means? No, what 363 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: does a catechism do? A catechism, by definition limits interpretation, 364 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 3: a catechism is like reading the Bible with having your 365 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 3: pastor sitting in your ear helping you understand what it means. 366 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 3: He believes that the Bible teaches that there is such 367 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 3: a thing as a teaching office. I mean it seems 368 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 3: to be that's pretty obvious. The Bible says everybody isn't 369 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: given the gift of teaching. Well, if everybody can equally 370 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 3: interpret the text, then why do we need teachers. So 371 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 3: this is an extension of the teaching office. Should everyone 372 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 3: know the text? Of course they should know the text. 373 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 3: Should they meditate on the text? Yes? 374 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 4: Yes, Is the Holy Spirit involved in this? Of course 375 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 4: he is. 376 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 3: But he doesn't want everybody deciding for themselves what the 377 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 3: Bible means, because then we end up with millions of 378 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 3: types of Christianity. Everybody is making up their own Christianity 379 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 3: on the fly, which is precisely what we've ended up with. 380 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 3: Now here's Luther's problem. The minute he says my conscience 381 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 3: is held captive to the word of God, next year 382 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 3: somebody looks at him and says, well, mine is too. 383 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: Right. 384 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 3: So this is the protest and irony that we've talked 385 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 3: about in other broadcast. The thing that unites us is 386 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 3: the thing that divides us. 387 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like, you know, you have to have 388 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: There's some really great work done in complexity theory on 389 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: constraint and how constraint helps us us to enables us to. 390 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: Do certain things. 391 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: And so if we just think about language, right, if 392 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: we're not obeying the basic rules of syntax and grammar 393 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: and using words that each of us know we're not 394 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: going to communicate. And so these are all constraints that 395 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: need to be there in order for us to be 396 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: able to do something. And I think that's a helpful 397 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: way of understanding the catechism is that it is it's 398 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: a constraint that enables in not allowing us to go 399 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: so far out of the box that you know, what 400 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: we're saying no longer makes any sense anymore. What a 401 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: catechism does is it narrows where we can go. It 402 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: gives us the appropriate rules that we need to follow 403 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: in order to articulate what the Bible says and how 404 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: it says it. And that is an aspect the catechy 405 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: sistem becomes almost like a prosthetic for a teaching. 406 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: Office, right. 407 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: It's something that can be passed down and you say, 408 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: here are the things you have to know, Here are 409 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: the things you need to know. Yeah, it's it's amazing 410 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: how that translation could open a lot of these things up. 411 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: And I think that's where I want to turn in 412 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: this next episode is what happens after the you know, 413 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: his German Bible is released, and how does he deal 414 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: with the what we might call the crumbling of the 415 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: structure of everything that he knew after the break with 416 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. 417 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 3: Yes, because it again we use terms without thinking about them. 418 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 3: We're talking about the German Reformation, right, what does the 419 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 3: word mean. It means a changing of an existing thing, 420 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 3: not creating a new thing. Yeah, Luther never intended to 421 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 3: start a new church. He simply wanted to reform the 422 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 3: existing church. Yeah, that's a hugely different thing. So you 423 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: could say that the formation of the Lutheran Church or 424 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 3: the Evangelical Church as it was known initially, was accidental. 425 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 3: That was not the intent. That was never the intent, 426 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 3: but it was. 427 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 4: It became a necessary evil and. 428 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: It has these huge implications down the road for how 429 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: we operate within Protestant and so we'll dig into some 430 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: of those. 431 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: In the next episode. 432 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: But this has been great. Thanks for going through the 433 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: ninety five thecs Greg and thanks everybody for joining us. 434 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: Come back on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take 435 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: care everybody. I just want to take a second to 436 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with 437 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to 438 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered 439 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 440 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: and more.