1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Love Offering Podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Adams, 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 2: author of Everyday Prayers for Love, Learning to Love God, others, 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: and even yourself. Each week we dive into meaningful conversations 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: about how to live out the greatest commandment, loving God 6 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 2: with all our heart's soul, mind and strength, and loving 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: our neighbors as ourselves, Whether through inspiring stories, practical wisdom, 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: or biblical truth. My hope is to encourage you to 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: love boldly, live faithfully, and reflect God's love in your 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 2: everyday life. Today, I'm honored to welcome back my friend 11 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 2: Shannon Popkin to the show. Shannon is the author of 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 2: kinda Judge, Finding Mercy for Myself and others in six 13 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 2: Stories of the Bible. In a world where judgment seems 14 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: to come from every direction, and sometimes from within our 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 2: own hearts, Shannon offers a thoughtful and grace filled perspective 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: on what Scripture really says about judgment and mercy. Through 17 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: six powerful Biblical stories, she gently helps us recognize our 18 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: tendency towards criticism and invites us to replace it with 19 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: compassion rooted in Christ's mercy. Well, Hello Janeen, and welcome 20 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 2: back to the Love Offering Podcast. I'm so happy to 21 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: have you again. Oh, Rachel, it's so good to be back. 22 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: Thank you. 23 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: So I was just telling you before we hit record. 24 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: Just yesterday, I had a friend that I had given 25 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 2: your book Control Girl Too, and she was singing your 26 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: praises like this is so good. I need to pass 27 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: it on to my daughter. And I'm just a fan 28 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 2: of you and all of your work. You really are 29 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 2: so gifted and I cannot wait for the release of 30 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: this new one kind of Judgy. 31 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: It's so good. Thank you, Rachel. Yeah, I think the 32 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: first time I was on your show, didn't we talk 33 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: about Control Girl? I remember. I think it was one 34 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: of my very first interviews actually, and I remember I 35 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: didn't even have a microphone yet. I think I was 36 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: just talking into my phone. I was so nervous and 37 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: then you too made me feel so at home. And 38 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: so that was probably about, I don't know, eight or 39 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: nine years ago, I imagine, is when that book came. 40 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's great to be back, and I'm just 41 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: thankful that the Lord has allowed these opportunities, you know, 42 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: for us to just talk about him and left him 43 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: high and make him central in our lives. Yeah, me too. 44 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 2: But I'm just gonna be honest. I'm not super excited 45 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: I want to talk to you. 46 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: I'm not super excited about you know. 47 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm going to be convicted today talking 48 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: about judgment. But I think it's good. In all eight years, 49 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: all eight seasons, we've never talked about this topic. Channel. 50 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: Oh really interesting, you know what. Honestly that doesn't surprise 51 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: me too much because it is something that we just 52 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: don't talk very much about, or if we do, it's 53 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: with the person that we feel like we can just 54 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: completely you know, we can judge together with them without 55 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: any without anyone criticizing or or oholdness, you know, accountable, 56 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: and so we don't really I don't know that we 57 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: want to embrace the message. But oh there's so much freedom. 58 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: And I think when we when we hold up our 59 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: tendency to judge against our civil judge, those two are 60 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: not matching. And we want to be like him, don't we. 61 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: That's that's the love offering, Like, that's really what we're 62 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: after here, And so we got to talk about it, 63 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: and hopefully you're gonna be encouraged, not just convicted. That's right. 64 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: We are going to talk about it, and it's gonna 65 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: be good. Wait to continue our conversation, but we're going 66 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: to take a brief break to hear a word from 67 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: our sponsor, and when we come back, we'll talk about 68 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: how judgment shows up in our everyday lives and what 69 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: scripture says about it. Welcome back. I'm talking with she 70 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: and I'm talking about her book kind of Judgy, And 71 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: so you mention that judgment isn't just something we experience 72 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: from others, it's something we often carry within ourselves. So 73 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: where do you see this showing up most in everyday life? 74 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean we just we feel judged by 75 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: It could be the neighbor who glances sideways. It could 76 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: be our spouse, our kids, our adult kids, we feel 77 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: judged by them, and internally, like we're so critical of ourselves, 78 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: and we like picture that whatever this other person is thinking. 79 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: I think maybe it starts with our own judgment, our 80 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: own self critical judgment of ourselves, and then we kind 81 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: of picture them echoing what we're feeling in our own hearts. 82 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: I was just talking with a friend the other day 83 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: and she said her son was like heard her say 84 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: something and assumed she meant this whole other thing, and 85 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: she's like, I think that started with him. I think 86 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: it originated with his own insecurities and his own critique 87 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: of himself. And then he thought I was piling on 88 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: and saying that same thing, and I meant nothing what 89 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: I had said, It didn't even compare to what he 90 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: the ways he was criticizing himself, That's not what I 91 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: was saying. But yeah, I think we judge ourselves, were 92 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: super critical of ourselves, and then when others seem to 93 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: be critical, it just man, it's just really hard for 94 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: us to receive, and so we feel judged and then 95 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: our natural response is to just judge right back, isn't it. Yes, 96 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: we feel judged and become judge. 97 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: Okay, so you've written control girl, comparison Girl, and then 98 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 2: kind of judging as far as like in this yeah 99 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: yeah thing. 100 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: I guess. 101 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, So why because you and our friends and so 102 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 2: we've had conversations outside of recordings, and so why did 103 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 2: you land on judgment of all the different attributes you 104 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 2: could have written about? 105 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: Why this one? Rachel? I feel like this is just 106 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: me laying out like, yes, and here's another one of 107 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: my heart struggles, Like here's another thing. Yeah, well, I 108 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: mean I just truly believe that the Word of God 109 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: brings life, and if we can latch onto this truth, 110 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: we can have the freedom and the security and the 111 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: comfort and the joy that God wants for us to have. 112 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: And so these are the things that are keeping us 113 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: from that. So I just want to keep going back 114 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: to the Word of God. Look at especially stories. That's 115 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: kind of my thing is I love the narratives, and 116 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: I think these stories package up such good truth about 117 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: who God is and who we are, and then like 118 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: it's just inviting us live like these things are true. 119 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: Don't be deceaved, don't fall into these traps. And particularly 120 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: with judgment and mercy, I think we tend to look 121 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: at you know, we look at these stories of the 122 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: Bible either as judgment or mercy. Sometimes we even kind 123 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: of divide the Bible up into the Old Testament that's 124 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 1: all about God's judgment, the New Testament that's all about mercy. 125 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: But what if we take a closer look, we see 126 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: judgment and mercy flowing through the entire book. And what 127 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: God most wants us to know about himself is that 128 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: He is merciful. Right, there are those verses in Exodus 129 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: where he starts out saying, the Lord, the Lord is 130 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: compassionate and gracious and kind, and he lists out like merciful. 131 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: He is so abundantly merciful. But then he gets to judgment, 132 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: he won't clear the guilty. But the thing he primarily 133 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: wants us to know, the thing he leads with the 134 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: most important thing for him to for us to know 135 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: about him, is that he is merciful. And then he 136 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: says that we should be merciful like he is. And 137 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think in all of these different ways, 138 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:06,559 Speaker 1: whether it's control or comparison or judging, I'm just like, Lord, 139 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: please show me the truth and help me to live 140 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: like your word is true. That's really what I'm after. 141 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: That's what I want for all of us. 142 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So you walk through six different Bible stories, including Noah, Rahab, Jonah, 143 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: and Simon the Pharisee. So which of these stories impacted 144 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: you most personally? 145 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: Oh, I really loved the chapter on Jonah. I don't 146 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: know if that one, And then the Thief on the Cross. 147 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: I think we're probably the most impactful, maybe in different ways. 148 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: So for Jonah, I mean I just saw myself in Jonah. 149 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: He is, So he's this prophet and there's all this 150 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: irony in that story because you just would not see 151 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: like the opening verses, like God told him to go 152 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 1: to Ninevah and he says no, God says go. Jonah 153 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: says no, Like that's just not what prophets do. And 154 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: I mean he is going like thousands of miles out 155 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: of his way to disobey God and probably sold everything. 156 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: This is a true story. I mean, in order to 157 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: go that far away, you just do that. So he 158 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: probably sold everything. He is like committed to going in 159 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: the opposite direction. And why, like what's the We don't 160 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: really find out until chapter four of the book. But 161 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: what's really behind that that you know immediate visceral response 162 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: of like no, I am not doing that is this 163 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: contempt that he has for the Ninavites. He's so filled 164 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: with judgment and condemned. And then you know what we 165 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: see in the last part of the book is God 166 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: invites him to have compassion on these people. And you know, 167 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: I don't live with that sort of evil right the 168 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: way that Jonah the Ninavites were truly evil. My Ninavites 169 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: aren't quite as evil. But I am just amazed, Rachel 170 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: at how low my threshold is for contempt, Like it 171 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: can be a really small offense. And I am just 172 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: filled with all this judgment and contempt, and I play 173 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: court in my head and I'm like, they are completely wrong, 174 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: and I see myself as the righteous one with all 175 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: this righteous indignation. I told a story in the book 176 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: about my mother in law and just how there was 177 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: just this tension in our relationship and I could not 178 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: I couldn't see it at the time, but looking back, 179 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: as I was studying the Book of Jonah, I was 180 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: so convicted about just you know, I had in my 181 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: head like she was difficult, you know she and she was, 182 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: she was a little difficult. But I just had in 183 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: my head I was going to be this perfect daughter 184 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: in law. I was going to do it all right, 185 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: you know. I was gonna when they came, I was 186 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: going to have the house clean, the kids behaving, the 187 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: meals cooked. I was going to do it all right. 188 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: With my nose just slightly turned off, you see. And 189 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: there was always just this tension in this distance between us, 190 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: and I think looking back, it was the contempt in 191 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: my heart that I held for her, And it started 192 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: on day one they came. When I met them, we 193 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: were playing this game and I was trying to help 194 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: my soon to be father in law or we weren't 195 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: engaged yet but would be father in law, and I 196 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: helped him win. And she didn't like that, and she 197 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: got all huffy about it, and she kind of withdrew 198 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: and she was just like bristled, and I was like, 199 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: my word. On the way home, I cried because I thought, 200 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, what if this woman would become my 201 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: mother in law? And she did. And so this was 202 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: just the first of many small offenses that I just 203 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: stored up in my heart right just looking at her 204 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: with like she is awful and I am nothing like her. 205 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: And that's what I see in the story of Jonah. 206 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: He's like they are nothing, they are nothing like me. 207 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: Contempt always says two things at once. It says like 208 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: these people are awful and I'm nothing like them. It 209 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: just puts distance between the two of us. And so 210 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: as I look back, and I look at the distance 211 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: in my relationship with my mother in law. She's gone 212 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: to be with the Lord now about ten years or 213 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: maybe longer. And I think if I could go back 214 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: and just sift through and find that contempt in my 215 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: heart and deal with that. I think it could have 216 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: had a beautiful effect on that relationship. I'm happy that 217 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: I'll see her again. And you know, I'm thankful that 218 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: the Lord has shown me these things in my heart 219 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: and dealt with them. And I think, just like Jonah. 220 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the story of Jonah 221 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: from the beginning to the end, I think at the beginning, 222 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm kind of going long on this. I 223 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: love the story. I know it is good. 224 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: I'm listening, it's great. 225 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: But at the beginning of the story, what you know, 226 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: all good stories have attention, and so it looks like 227 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: the tension is there's a prophet who needs you to obey, 228 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: and then there are these people who need to repent. 229 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: And by chapter four, both of those things have happened. 230 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: You know, the prophet has obeyed and the people have repented. 231 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: But the story goes on, and so what the Lord 232 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: is singling out in this story what needs to change 233 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: is Jonah, because he has actually not changed from the 234 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: beginning we saw with him packing up and heading two 235 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: thousand miles in the wrong direction. He is filled with contempt. 236 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: That's what was driving him, then that's what's driving him 237 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: at the end. And we really don't see a change 238 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: in his heart until the book kind of closes with 239 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: a question and God's like asking are you right? Are 240 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: you right to be this way toward the Ninavites? And 241 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: we don't know how he'll respond. It kind of reminds 242 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: me of the prodigal son, where, you know, and so 243 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: the question like, how are you going to respond? And 244 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: so I felt that question deeply in my soul as 245 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: I studied that book of Jonah. I just felt like, 246 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: am I going to Am I going to stay this way? 247 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: You know? Am I going to just be filled with 248 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: contempt for other people? 249 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: Like? 250 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: Oh, I mean it was over a game. It was 251 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: over a board game, Rachel, And it just sowed these 252 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: seeds of contempt in my heart. Am I going to 253 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: continue on that path? Or am I going to listen 254 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: to the lord? You know who invites me to be compassionate? Well? 255 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: Now you're a mother in law, right. 256 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: I know? And I was writing Yes, as I was 257 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: writing it, I was preparing for my I think that's 258 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: why it hit so heavily, you know, And I was thinking, 259 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: I think becoming a mother in law. It's just kind 260 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: of stirred up all of those memories in my heart 261 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: of when I first met my mother in law and 262 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: just how I wanted so much for this relationship. And 263 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: I have such a sweet daughter in law. She literally 264 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: would do anything for us, she would know. But I 265 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: started thinking about what would it feel like to have 266 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: another woman entering my home, my family who was just 267 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, filled with contempt for me, like doing it 268 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: all nice, you know, bringing gifts and meals, but just 269 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: I just knew that she was judging me in her heart, 270 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: Like how would that feel? So yeah, turning the tables 271 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: that was hard. And I don't know if there's any 272 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: mother in law's listening or daughter in law's. I know 273 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: how hard that relationship can be. But I also know 274 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: that the Lord uses these hard relationships right to do 275 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: this beautiful work in our hearts, you know, to surface 276 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: the stuff that the draws that he wants to clear 277 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: away so that we can be more like Jesus. 278 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, okay, you mentioned Jonah, but you also mentioned 279 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 2: the thief on the Cross was the other one that 280 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 2: was just really like hit home for you. So tell 281 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: us a little bit more about that. 282 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: I just see Jesus's mercy in that, you know, in 283 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: that story, because here he is, he's nailed to across, 284 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: and the people that are filing it. 285 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: You know that. 286 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: I think sometimes we think of the cross. We have 287 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: this picture. It's like this beautiful hillside, you know, with 288 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: a sunset, and it's like remote and you know, we 289 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: have this and the cross is beautiful. I'm not saying 290 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: it isn't. But he was in a public place. People 291 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: were walking passing by and wagging their heads and saying, 292 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: you know, insults at him. And the religious leaders showed 293 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: up and they're talking about him. They're not talking to him, 294 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: they're scoffing. They're talking about him and the other thieves, 295 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: the two thieves on either side of him, Matthew makes 296 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: it clear it was both of them. They start mocking him. 297 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: And the thing about judging and mocking and contempt is 298 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: always like the finger of judgment always points down from 299 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: this elevated position, right, And so these thieves are pointing down, 300 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: like with their wrists nailed to the cross, they're like 301 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: on level ground, but they are pointing. They're mocking him. 302 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: They're saying, you know, if you're really the king, if 303 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: you're really the Messiah, why don't you save yourself and 304 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: save us? 305 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 3: Do? 306 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: And so they're saying he isn't who he says he is. 307 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: And that's the religious leaders as well. And so if 308 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: anyone has ever felt judged, it's Jesus like misjudged. And 309 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: I think what often brings out these feelings of judgment 310 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: in our hearts is when we're feeling judged by somebody else, 311 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: we feel judged and become judging. That's our human nature. 312 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: But that's exactly the opposite of what we see in Jesus. 313 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: He is being judged, being wrongly judged. He is the Messiah, 314 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: he is the King. And yet you know what's keeping 315 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: him on that cross is not that he is unable 316 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: to come down. He's not. You know, he's not too 317 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: weak to come down. He's too merciful. He will not 318 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: come down because he is committed. This is why he's come. 319 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: He's committed to mercifully dying in our place. And so 320 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: from that place on the cross, he praises prayer and 321 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: he says, Father, have mercy on them, forgive them. They 322 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing. And that does not mean 323 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: that everyone in earshot will be forgiven. He prays that 324 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: they might be, and that prayer is answered with the 325 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: second thief. So he goes from mocking Jesus to see 326 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: this dramatic shift in him. He's mocking him at first, 327 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: and then he stands with Jesus and he's like, hold up, everybody, 328 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, we deserve this punishment, he says to the 329 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: other thief. But this guy, he's done nothing wrong. And 330 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: then he turns to Jesus and says, remember me when 331 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: you enter your kingdom. So he sees him as the king, 332 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: and Jesus is not looking very keenly at this point. 333 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: He has this crown of thorns. But this thief sees something, 334 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: you know, his eyes have been opened. Suddenly he sees 335 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: what nobody else does. He sees that Jesus actually is 336 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: the king, and he believes. And so there's that verse 337 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: in Romans that says, if we confess in our hearts 338 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: and believe that Jesus's Lord, we will be saved. And 339 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: that's what's happening to this man. He confesses out loud, 340 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: I'm with him, I've sinned, and then he believes, like, 341 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: can you help me? Can you when you enter your kingdom? 342 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: Remember me like, and Jesus responds, he has such mercy. 343 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: It's this beautiful display of mercy. And I mean it 344 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: is big mercy. It's like flowing from him. Is these 345 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: streams of mercy? Well one commentator puts it, this streams 346 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: of mercy. And so I see in this man what 347 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: made the difference? Like we're not told this overly, but 348 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: this is the job of a storyteller. They show us, 349 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: not just tell us. So Luke is showing us what 350 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: changed in this man. He went from mocking, from filled 351 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: with contempt to asking for mercy. Well, what happened was 352 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: he saw the mercy in Jesus. It had this I mean, 353 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: this is unexpected. This is dramatic, like that you would 354 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: be so wrongly judged and that you would respond with 355 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: mercy Like this has a dramatic effect on this man. 356 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: There's this huge change. His eyes are opened. And I 357 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: think that's the same for us, Like if we want 358 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: to change, if we want to start, like if to 359 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: the extent that we feel convicted, that we're wrongly judging, 360 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: that we're feeling judged, that our hearts are filled with 361 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: contempt for other people, to the extent that we feel 362 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: that and we want to change. Here's how we experience 363 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: the mercy of this merciful judge, Like we have to 364 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: step inside. And that's why I chose Stories Rachel for this, 365 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: because I guess just written a study on these New 366 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: Testament teaching texts that tell us, you know, here's the truth. 367 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: But I think stories we enter in and we experience 368 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: something in the story and we're shown something, not just 369 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: told something, and that really is moving. I think that 370 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: that's what moves our hearts to experience the mercy of Jesus. 371 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: And I did experience that so kind of afresh as 372 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: I wrote that chapter. Sometimes I think we get a 373 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: little too immune to the story of the Cross, right, 374 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: and I think we need to experience that afresh over 375 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: and over and over and so, and it does have 376 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: this dramatic effect on us. Yeah, stories do. 377 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: And in fact, I was watching The Faithful, it's about 378 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: the faithful. 379 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: Women of the Bible. 380 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: So before I've just done, watched Sarah Hagar and then Rebecca. 381 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 2: And as I was watching Rebecca this morning, I was 382 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: watching it as I was walking on the treadmill. I 383 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: actually thought of you, Shannon and the control Girl, about 384 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 2: how she took control over the children and the blessing 385 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: and all that, and I was just like, Lord, this 386 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: is still a message. But you're right, so right about 387 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: stories when we really enter in and can see it 388 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 2: from a different perspective, so impactful. And as you were talking, 389 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: I was just thinking, so you gave us the solution, 390 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 2: which is so good and so true, But I'm just 391 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 2: thinking about going back to the root. And I think 392 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 2: you kind of alluded to this in the beginning. This 393 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: judgment attitude can come from a source of pride, but 394 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 2: it seems to me, like you mentioned, it also comes 395 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 2: from a place of insecurity of when we're feeling so 396 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 2: maybe inadequate on in our own we then are looking 397 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: to others to make them, to bring them down to 398 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 2: What would you say about the root of the judgment. 399 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do see pride. Like I said, the finger 400 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: of judgment always points down from this elevated like we're 401 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: lifting ourselves up. But I think you're right. We get 402 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: these like little judge boosts of pride when we judge 403 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: somebody else. Right, My daughter, when she's about four, would 404 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: come down halfway down the stairs and she'd stand there 405 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: and say, oh, he got out of bed again. Talking 406 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: about her two year old brother, and I'd go, oh, 407 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: and what about you, dearie, because here she is, she 408 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: is out of her bed, but yet she feels the 409 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: need to come and tell us that he's out of 410 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: his bed because we feel this like, you know, even 411 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: she's halfway up the stairs, she's looking down on us 412 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: to tell you know, she feels elevated, right, And that's 413 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: I think that is at the heart of judgment. When 414 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: we judge other people, it does help us deal with 415 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: our own insecurities. So I'm not as bad as them. 416 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: You know, they're doing this over here, and I see 417 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: it particularly in church people, right, because church people are 418 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: a little more aware, as we should be, of God's 419 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: lines between right and wrong. You know, the world just 420 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: wants to erase the lines and say, let's just embrace. 421 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: Let's just embrace, you know, link arms and stop judging 422 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: and create this judge free utopia. And in the church, 423 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: we know we don't have the authority to do that. 424 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: We're not the ones who drew the lines. We can't 425 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: erase the lines. But I think that we have our 426 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: eye on the line, and we're watching people step over 427 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: those lines, and we're just tisk you know, we're we're 428 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: filled with like just all of this ugly, ugly emotions 429 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: about people like oh, you know, aghast and we're just 430 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: filled with contempt or just looking down on people. And 431 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: the world feels that. And I think, you know, I 432 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: grew up in church. I grew up in a pretty 433 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: fundamentalist denomination. I can't I have this moment. I remember 434 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: at about fifteen years old today on the bus, and 435 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: my girlfriends and I are talking about we couldn't believe it, 436 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: this all this righteous indignation burning in our hearts because 437 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: a boy from our youth group had asked a girl 438 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 1: from our school to a movie Horrors, which you know, 439 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: maybe you were like what, I don't get it, And 440 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: that's probably because you didn't grow up in a shirts 441 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: like fine, it couldn't have told you why it was 442 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: wrong to go to movies. We just knew that this 443 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: boy had blown his testimony, never mind that the girl 444 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: he asked out was also believers, just to different denomination. 445 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I just think back on how like, 446 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: look at us sitting there on the bus, we felt 447 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: so like we see the pride in our hearts, see 448 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: how we're like boosting ourselves where a lift, he has 449 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: done something horrible. We would never, That's what judgment says. 450 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: I have never. I would never, I could never. There's 451 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: this pride in our contempt. But what the Lord continually 452 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: calls us back to is like, well, wait, you know, 453 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: have you never truly right? I mean, is there any 454 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: sin that we could truly say We've never done anything 455 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: like that? I think maybe not to the extent that 456 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: somebody else has. But we have all fallen, all have 457 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: sinned and fallen short of the glory. All of us 458 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: have sinned, and so as the church, as we you know, 459 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: clutch our pearls and gasped in disgust, we're losing sight 460 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: of that, right, We're losing sight that we too are sinners, 461 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: and that the only difference between us and somebody else. 462 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: I think that's what God is getting at with that 463 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: story of Jonah, as he points out, like, what's the 464 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: difference between you and them? Jonah? Like you grew up 465 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: in a community, Like your advantage was you knew about me, 466 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: you knew me. You know, this community of people who 467 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: you had my laws, you had me, and these people 468 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: that don't have me at all, they don't even know me. 469 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: And so I am the difference, not you, not your 470 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: superior morality or righteousness. You wouldn't even know to be 471 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 1: moral if you didn't have me. And that's true of 472 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: any of us. Like if we're looking down with disgust 473 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: at somebody else, it's like that. It's just unfounded, because 474 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: the only difference between us and them is the Lord, 475 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: and he's the one because he died for us, he 476 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: poured out his mercy on us. That's the only reason 477 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: that because he rose to new life, we can rise 478 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: to a new life too. And the only power that 479 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: we have to do so is this power living in us. 480 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I think the response to this pride 481 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: and contempt, this self elevating superior morality, that the response 482 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: to that is seeing myself among these other sinners, like 483 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: I really am just like them, and that's what breeds 484 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: this compassion that we need. 485 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I can't wait to continue today's conversation, but 486 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 2: we're going to take another brief break to hear a 487 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 2: word from today's sponsor, and when we come back, we'll 488 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,479 Speaker 2: talk more about how we can lay down judgment and 489 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 2: grow in mercy. 490 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: Welcome back. 491 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: I'm talking with Shane and Popkin about her book kind 492 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: of judge. Before the break, you were talking about we've 493 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 2: all sinned, and I just started thinking about the woman 494 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 2: that was caught in adultery, and everybody had their stones, 495 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: and Jesus says, you without send cast the first stone, 496 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: and everybody had to lay them. 497 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: Down, and he did. 498 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: He is the judge, and he could have judged her 499 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 2: in that moment, and he just said go and sin 500 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: no more. And I think that too, is just such 501 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 2: a beautiful picture of the mercy that he extends. But 502 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 2: yet he is a judge. I mean, that's the end 503 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: of the story. We talk about revelation, I mean, can 504 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 2: we go there? 505 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: No, of course. Yeah, well, let's first talk about what 506 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: is mercy and then talk about the mercy that we're 507 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: given by this judge. So what is mercy Like, mercy 508 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: is not getting what you do deserve. Yeah, grace is 509 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: getting what you don't deserve. But mercy is not getting 510 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: the judgment that you do deserve. And so implied in 511 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: mercy in us asking for mercy is our guilt, like 512 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: is that we do deserve judgments. And so I think 513 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: we have to start there. We have to recognize all 514 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: have sinned, and from the beginning from the story of 515 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. They 516 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: were reaching out for that tree. And what's so interesting 517 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: because what they wanted was good judgment apart from God. Right, 518 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: That's what was wrapped up in that tree is good judgment. 519 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: And now we all have flawed judgment. And then and we, 520 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, we start judging everybody with our flawed judgment. 521 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: But God gave us mercy the response to our sin 522 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: and the impending judgments. You know, God said, if you 523 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: eat from this fruit, you will die. You will surely die. 524 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: And this is where corruption entered. It's like our distortion. 525 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: Everything went badly at that tree, that good judgment tree 526 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: is what I called it in this book. But everything 527 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: went badly, and everything that we have experienced and every 528 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: wrong that we have imposed on others, it all begins 529 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: with us looking at something that God says is bad, 530 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: is evil, and we think it looks good, and so 531 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: we all deserve his judgment for that. Death is the 532 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: primary judgment. Every time you go to a funeral, you 533 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: can just go in with, okay, well, here's the evidence 534 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: that this is a sinner. You know, like our funerals 535 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: will say the same thing. Death is makes it evident 536 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: that we deserve judgment, and this is part of that judgment. 537 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: Death is our judgment for sin. But God is merciful. 538 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: He has been so so merciful, and so yeah, I 539 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: think it's really important that we think about that final judge. 540 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: There is a judge and he will judge so and 541 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: we see glimpses of that throughout the Bible, like the 542 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: story of the flood. I started the book with that 543 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: story because I think we have to get it established. 544 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: There is a judge and he does judge people. I 545 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: think the world right now wants to say just focus 546 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: on like the mercy of Christ. But then there is 547 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: mercy in that story of the flood, Like don't just 548 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: look at the flood, also look at the arc and 549 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: that's God's mercy is rising above his judgment. He wants 550 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: us to know about his mercy. And yet there is 551 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: a judge, and there will be a judgment, and all 552 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: will stand before that judge one day. I put an 553 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: appendix in the back of this book, a kind of judge, 554 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: because I want to it's all about like judgment. I 555 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: can't remember the title of it, but it's like, what 556 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: does the Bible say about this final judgment. We need 557 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: to have that, you know, at the ready, so we 558 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: are fully aware there is a judgment. There is a judge, 559 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: and he does judge, and I mean think about, like 560 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: just for a moment, think about if he didn't judge, 561 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: you know, if there was no judgment. I saw this 562 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: show about this really good judge. He's a good, kind, 563 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: merciful judge. Everybody loved him. He's like this beautiful character. 564 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: And then his son commits a crime, and out of 565 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: his love for his son, he doesn't judge his son. 566 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: He covers it up, and it just like leads to 567 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: this cascading effects of you know, this man, he totally 568 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: loses his bearings. It's like one sin is to cover another, 569 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: all this deception and lies and everything, and so he 570 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: just falls. This judge falls into the Really it got 571 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: so dark. I couldn't even finish watching. It was bad. 572 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: And that's I mean, that's what would happen if our 573 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,239 Speaker 1: judge didn't judge. He is righteous, he is good, and 574 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: he is not like that judge in the show. He 575 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: will judge because of it. He's a god of justice, 576 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: so it would not be right for him to not judge. 577 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: Sin and so that's the kind of God he is. 578 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: And yet one day, those of us who are in 579 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: Christ right, who have respond to the story of great mercy, 580 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: we will not get that judge. That's I mean, imagine 581 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: that day when others will be cast out into that 582 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: outer darkness, and yet you will be welcomed in. He 583 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: will look at you and say, oh, she belongs. Come, 584 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: you know, come to the marriage supper of the Lamb. 585 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: Come and enjoy this fellowship, and come to my kingdom, 586 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: Come enter in. I mean, we don't deserve that, Rachel. 587 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 1: And yet that's what we will receive. That's this beautiful mercy, 588 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: and that should change the way that we see ourselves 589 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: and see other people. Even when we're self judging, you know, 590 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: even when we're casting judgment on ourselves, we have to remember, 591 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 1: like God is too just to judge someone. Twice, our 592 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: judgment has already been dealt with on the Cross. It 593 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: was horrific. Jesus took care of that. And so for 594 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: God to like, I think sometimes we feel like he's 595 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: just I'm just that girl, I can't you know, she's 596 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: just awful, just waiting for the other, you know, waiting 597 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: for me to sin. Feeling like this distance. I think 598 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: that's how we see God. Right, he just feels that 599 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: way about me. It's like, no, he already he already 600 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: dealt with my sin on the cross, and his arms 601 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: are wide open. Picture the arms of Jesus wide open 602 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: on that cross. That is his mercy for you. And 603 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: he's not waffling between the two. He loves us, He 604 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: welcomes us, He did everything possible to welcome us back 605 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: after we fell into sin. And so that that is 606 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: the great mercy of our good God and the great love. 607 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: So asking all of my guess, is there a biblical 608 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,479 Speaker 2: concept of love that you think applies to this topic? 609 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: And it's been all over today's episode, But what would 610 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: you say an answer to that? 611 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: Wow, that he first loved us, right, that's not that 612 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: we first loved him. I think some of us think, well, 613 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be good and you know, catch God's attention. No, 614 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: he first loved us. We were fallen, We were born 615 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,479 Speaker 1: into this fallenness. We had no chance right of making 616 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: anything right on our own. Jesus did that for us. 617 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, the great love and mercy gushing from 618 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: Jesus on that Christ's that is this story, and I 619 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: just love that you and me and our listeners that 620 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: we get to be part of it. You know that 621 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: He's opened our eyes to himself and his love. Otherwise 622 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: we would be so lost, right and so, like, think 623 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: of someone that you know who is facing God's judgment 624 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: and doesn't that fill your heart with compassion for them? 625 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: And don't you want them too to experience the great 626 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: love and mercy of Jesus. Yeah? 627 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, well tell us something you are loving? 628 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: Right now? What am I loving? Okay? I have it 629 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: beside me. I have this new thing called a remarkable. 630 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if you can know. It's like a 631 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: digital tablet and it's it doesn't have all the bells 632 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: and whistles of like a like I do have an iPad, 633 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,959 Speaker 1: but this is it's like I love to handwrite things, 634 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: and so it feels most like paper, and it's less 635 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: distracting because it doesn't have pop up things or whatever, 636 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: and so it's just got all of my so like 637 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: I take it to church with me and take my 638 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: sermon notes and then I can it's all in one place. 639 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: I used to have like dozens of notebooks all over 640 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: the house. I couldn't find to ever find anything. So 641 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: I can search my handwriting on this and find, you know, 642 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: So it's my journal, it's my sermon notes. I can 643 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: send my like if I'm doing a Bible study and 644 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: I want to like double space a passage of scripture, 645 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: I can send it there through a word document and 646 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: then mark it up and I just have it all 647 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: in one place. I really like interesting. 648 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so is it like them an app or like 649 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: I'm trying to understand it, because so if you want 650 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: to like go and search for it later, like on 651 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: your computer on your phone, how do you access like 652 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 2: your notes. 653 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you can search it on the actual device 654 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: and then you can send it. You can send the 655 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: document to your Google app or to your email or 656 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: somebody else's email. 657 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: So yeah, as you've written your all those notes, you 658 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: can pass them on to if you can. 659 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: And you can turn your handwriting into text too, and 660 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: so yeah, it'll do that for you. And you can 661 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: like take like a lot of times I'm drawing era 662 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: and moving, you know, so you can circle a section 663 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: of texts that you've written and then move it, you know, 664 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: to another make it bigger, smaller, move it around. It's 665 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: pretty amazing what it can do. So, like for my 666 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: speaking notes, I'll use I'll start on here and I 667 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: just mark up like and I'm drawing arrows and things like, 668 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: because that's just how I mark my notes. But then 669 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: I can just send those to my iPad. It makes 670 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: a little bit cleaner of a PDF to send it 671 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: to my iPad. So anyway, and there is an app 672 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: too that you can upload things to the app or 673 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: download from the app. 674 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: So I've never heard of this. It's called remarkable. 675 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: It's pretty remarkable, isn't it. Yeah. 676 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: I mean it's I've already had my birthday and Christmas 677 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 2: is far away, but I'm thinking like a mother's day. 678 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: There you go, there you go. Yeah, there's different sizes 679 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: you can get. I got the one too that has color, 680 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: so you can. Some of them are just black and white, 681 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: but it's a little sized digicular. I got the biggest one. 682 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's like a sheet of paper, 683 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: but there's a little I can thinking about the little 684 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: one that I could keep in my purse because it's 685 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: a little bit big for my person. Anyway, it's pretty special. 686 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: They're kind of expensive, but I think you know, if 687 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: you save up. It's kind of worth it. For me, 688 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: it was worth it. Yeah I was a writer, Yeah, yes, 689 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: especially yeah, well. 690 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: Awesome, Okay, Well, I know I want to stay connected 691 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 2: with you. I'm sure listeners are going to want to, 692 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 2: So tell us how we can do that and grab 693 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 2: a copy of your new book kind of Judge. 694 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Well, if you want to take the kind of 695 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: Judge quiz, we can give you a link for that. 696 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: If that's okay, we'll add it to your show notes. 697 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: But also you can come to my site Shannon Papkin 698 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: dot com forward slash Judge and we've got lots of 699 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: different resources and stuff for you there. And yeah, I 700 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: mean I love to hang out on Instagram to Rachel, 701 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm an Instagram girl. I'm a little bit on Facebook too, 702 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, I would love to connect with your listeners 703 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: and share this, share this new book. I'm so thankful 704 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: for movie publishers and the opportunity to write it and 705 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: put it in your hands. 706 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 2: Okay, I have to ask why kind of. 707 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: What was that? 708 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: It was like we're like we are a little bit 709 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 2: or not a lot, or like what was the thought 710 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 2: process there? 711 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: I think it takes the edge off, doesn't it. 712 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 3: Yeah? 713 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 1: It does, right, I don't want to be like judgmental. 714 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 3: Right, yes they are a judging, right, and so I 715 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 3: think it helps to sound kind of judging. It's just 716 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 3: something that we say, don't you mean kind of judging there, right, 717 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 3: We don't want to we don't want to post that 718 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 3: on an NBA else, and we don't want to really 719 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 3: impost on us. And so I do think it takes 720 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 3: a little bit of the edge off, but it gets 721 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 3: at the problem too in a kind of a teasing 722 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 3: sort of way, which that's sort of what I was 723 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 3: trying to accomplish with control Girl. You know, my first, 724 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 3: my first when I was getting that first contract, there 725 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 3: was one publisher who wanted to call. 726 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: It, what is that thing? People say, Oh my goodness, 727 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: I forget control freak, control freak. Oh yeah, and I'm like, 728 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, No, nobody wants to control. Like it's 729 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: already such a bad thing. Though, you know, let's make 730 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: it easy to pick up. So that was kind of 731 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: the idea behind kind of judging too, like let's just 732 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: make it as easy as possible to pick us up 733 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: and just so let's just talk about it, no judgments, 734 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, like you're not gonna hear judgment from me. 735 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: You're gonna hear me say like, yeah, me too, and 736 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: let's go to the one who's filled with mercy. Amen. 737 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, would you pray for us as we closed it? 738 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: I would love to. Lord, we're so grateful for Jesus, 739 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: thank you for sending him to die in our place 740 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: on that cross, and as we just talked about that 741 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: story where he felt he was so judged, wrongly judged, 742 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: misjudged by everyone in that scene, and yet he responded 743 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: with mercy. And I pray that you would help us 744 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: to be that way. Lord. You've said to be merciful 745 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: as our father is merciful, and I just pray that 746 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: you would cultivate that in our hearts, that these stories 747 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 1: of your great mercy would affect us, that we would 748 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: be moved by what matters to you and Jesus precious name. 749 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: I pray and Amen. 750 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: Shannon, thank you for encouraging us to not be as 751 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 2: judge and to rely on the mercy and love of 752 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 2: the Lord. Thank you so much for today my pleasure. 753 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 2: Thanks Rachel, thank you so much for listening to the 754 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 2: Love Offering podcast. I hope today's conversation reminded you that 755 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 2: you don't have to carry the weight of judgment yours 756 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 2: or anyone else's. There's a better way, a way marked 757 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,720 Speaker 2: by mercy, humility, and grace. If you enjoyed this episode, 758 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 2: please share with a friend andly review. It helps others 759 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 2: find the show and spreads the message of love even further. 760 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 2: To connect with me, visit me on my website at 761 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 2: Rachelcadams dot com, where you can download the Love Always Devotional, 762 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 2: a free resource to help you realize how beloved you 763 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 2: already are. Be sure to check out kind of Judge 764 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 2: Finding Mercy for myself and others in Six Stories of 765 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: the Bible by Shannon Popkin. A special thank you to 766 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: Life Audio for supporting this podcast and making it possible 767 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 2: to find more great podcasts visit lifeaudio dot com. Until 768 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 2: next time, let's make our lives an offering of love.