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Speaker 1: Life audio pastor Kyle, thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 2: So good to be with you. Michael, thanks for having

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Speaker 2: me on.

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Speaker 1: Kyle Idelman, Senior pastor of Southeastpriit Church in Louisville, Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: and co author of the your book The Missing Messiah,

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Speaker 1: The Jesus We Can No Longer Ignore. Tindell is the

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Speaker 1: publisher pastor. This book immediately hooked me because you include

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Speaker 1: a Michael Jordan illustration. I love that you say we

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Speaker 1: have turned Jesus into a product. What do you mean

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Speaker 1: and what led you guys to want to write this book?

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Speaker 2: You know, understanding how we kind of contextualize our faith

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Speaker 2: based on where and when we live in history. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's not new how we've done this, but where we

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Speaker 2: take Jesus and put him in that kind of culture box.

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Speaker 2: And so maybe that is a Jesus as a political

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Speaker 2: mascot where he kind of supports our agenda and it's

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Speaker 2: on our side when it comes to political or social issues.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe it's Jesus as a you know, life therapist

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Speaker 2: who focuses on self actualization and makes us feel better

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Speaker 2: about ourselves. And you know, mix Jesus in with a

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Speaker 2: you know, a cold plunge and got salvation. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's it's how we attach things to him that

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Speaker 2: may not be bad but aren't complete. And then the book,

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Speaker 2: I hope, just challenges people to think outside that Jesus

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Speaker 2: box that maybe they've built their faith around, and taking

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Speaker 2: a fresh look at Okay, this is what it means

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Speaker 2: to follow the Jesus of the Gospel. So I think

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Speaker 2: the word Messiah helps us with this a lot. Like

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Speaker 2: Christ is the New Testament version of Messiah, and so

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Speaker 2: like when you say Jesus Christ, Christ is not his

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Speaker 2: last name, Christ is a is a way of saying

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Speaker 2: Messiah anointed one, that he's king. And so helping people

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Speaker 2: while continuing to embrace Jesus's savior, also recognizes that Jesus's

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Speaker 2: Lord absolutely.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're kind of in a cultural moment right

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Speaker 1: now where Jesus seems to be more cool than ever.

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Speaker 1: You have people of all walks of life for claiming Christ,

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Speaker 1: and that's wonderful. But I mean, I'm just curious, is

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Speaker 1: that one of the reasons maybe you feel lad to

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Speaker 1: write this book that Jesus is super cool right now,

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Speaker 1: but not everybody calls him lord.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And helping people understand that, you know, to use

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Speaker 2: your language of calling Jesus cool, I would say that

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Speaker 2: that would be maybe in the past, thought of as belief, like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I believe in Jesus. Yeah, of course, yeah, it sounds good.

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Speaker 2: But understanding that in scripture like belief and following go together,

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Speaker 2: and following Jesus has implications that may not always feel cool,

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Speaker 2: right Like there implications that are challenging and uncomfortable. And

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Speaker 2: you know, if your faith in Jesus, if your belief

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Speaker 2: in Jesus isn't isn't challenging you in some ways, then

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Speaker 2: that doesn't reflect the invitation to follow Jesus, which is

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Speaker 2: to take up your cross daily and follow him. So

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Speaker 2: how do we follow him as Messiah? How do we

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Speaker 2: follow him as king? How do we follow him in

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Speaker 2: a way that costs us something and requires something of us?

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Speaker 1: What are some common misunderstandings about Jesus in the culture today.

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Speaker 2: You know, if I had to put one word on it,

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Speaker 2: I think I would put the word comfortable on it.

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Speaker 2: That that we have let me use an illustration. We

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Speaker 2: have kind of this netflixification of our faith where we

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Speaker 2: have our you know, viewing preferences are kind of our

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Speaker 2: algorithms that match up with our lives, and then we

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Speaker 2: want a relationship with Jesus to work the same way.

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Speaker 2: And so whatever doesn't fit that doesn't seem to make

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Speaker 2: the cut. An example of this would be, you know

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Speaker 2: a guy in our church who not long ago said, Hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm not coming back anymore. I'm done. And in his

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Speaker 2: email to me kind of laying that out, he said,

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Speaker 2: how do you say? He said that when I come

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Speaker 2: to church, I feel like it interferes with my life, right,

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's the way it's supposed

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Speaker 2: to work. But I think culturally it seemed to him

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Speaker 2: like that was something must be wrong if I if

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Speaker 2: I'm coming to church and it's interfering with my life.

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Speaker 2: And I talked about this in the books. If you

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Speaker 2: if you think of faith as like being a drawer

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Speaker 2: in the dresser of life, and you know, maybe one

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Speaker 2: drawer's money, one drawer is you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: romantic relationship, one drawer is politics, one drawer's faith. That

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Speaker 2: we don't mind people at church or faith like digging

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Speaker 2: around in that spiritual drawer, but that biblically, you know,

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Speaker 2: following Jesus as Messiah means that he's the dresser that

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Speaker 2: all the drawers of life fit into. That means that

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Speaker 2: following him is invites you to, you know, open up

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Speaker 2: the money drawer and look around and see if that

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Speaker 2: aligns with him as Messiah. To think through your marriage

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Speaker 2: and you know, as a husband, my following Jesus as Messiah,

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Speaker 2: so I then begin to look at every area of

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Speaker 2: my life through that lens of Jesus as King, not

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Speaker 2: just Jesus as Savior.

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Speaker 1: I think you included that Netflix illustration in the book,

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Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. And also this Michael Jordan illustration

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Speaker 1: in the book really struck me. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that was your illustration or or your co author, but

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Speaker 1: it struck me as how it's true because so many

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Speaker 1: people think of Jordan as a logo and Jordan was

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Speaker 1: a person, And is that not similar to what we

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Speaker 1: have today and that you're that you're talking about in

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Speaker 1: terms of Christ being kind of a logo and not

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Speaker 1: a not an actual person or you know, a savior

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Speaker 1: in someone's life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And to maybe think about this in terms

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Speaker 2: of like the Jordan idea is that you you can

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Speaker 2: feel connected to somebody like that through you know, like

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Speaker 2: through the shoes or through following the career or knowing

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Speaker 2: the stats. But that's a lot different than having a

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Speaker 2: relationship with someone. And so it can give you this

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Speaker 2: false sense of connection. And but if he said, if

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Speaker 2: you know, if he walked in, he's like, I have

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Speaker 2: no idea who you are, Like he doesn't, he doesn't

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Speaker 2: feel connected to us. We're just kind of connected to

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Speaker 2: him through kind of these cultural, you know, connections, and

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Speaker 2: so understanding Jesus as more than that for us, like it, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: do we want to know about him and be associated

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Speaker 2: with him?

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Speaker 1: I hope so.

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Speaker 2: But but knowing him is is different. And so one

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Speaker 2: of the ways I talk about this a little bit

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Speaker 2: in the book is like wanting to to not just

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Speaker 2: follow Jesus closely enough to be associated with him, to

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Speaker 2: you know, to have the name, but closely enough that

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Speaker 2: it's requiring something of me. That that's where this life is.

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Speaker 2: A follower of Jesus really begins to have meaning and

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Speaker 2: purpose and give joy. Like we we think that by

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Speaker 2: holding back and kind of following from a distance, that

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Speaker 2: will be happier, more fulfilled, or complete. But the most

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Speaker 2: miserable people I know are the people who who take

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Speaker 2: that approach where they they followed Jesus kind of from

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Speaker 2: a distance and they're associated with them and they've got

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Speaker 2: the name, but they're not they're not close enough that

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Speaker 2: it's costing them something or requiring something of them.

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Speaker 1: This might be a question maybe before a story end,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just curious, is this an American problem that's

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Speaker 1: really unique to us? Because it seems like we have

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Speaker 1: such an individualistic mindset in America that everything has to

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Speaker 1: be our way. Do you think that's driving what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about in terms of people just wanting to make

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Speaker 1: their Jesus to fit their own He's a word. That's

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Speaker 1: a great question.

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Speaker 2: What I would say is like the dynamic is not American,

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Speaker 2: meaning like if you look at Crusade, you know they

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Speaker 2: kind of marched under the banner of Jesus while slaughtering people.

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Speaker 2: Or if you look at at slave traders, you know

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Speaker 2: they would you know they or even you know Christians

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Speaker 2: and Nazi people call themselves Christians and Nazi Germany, where

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Speaker 2: they kind of have this ary in Jesus, but they

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Speaker 2: stripped him of this Jewish identity. So the idea of

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Speaker 2: taking Jesus and making him into our own image. That's

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Speaker 2: not necessarily Western culture. What is Western culture is what

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Speaker 2: that looks like me. Like, what would be an example

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Speaker 2: of this, Like the individualized approach to following Jesus, very

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Speaker 2: Western culture that, oh, it's my personal relationship with Jesus.

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Speaker 2: I can follow Jesus. I don't need to with any

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Speaker 2: I don't need to do that with other people. I

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Speaker 2: just do it on my own. Like that approach to

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Speaker 2: following Jesus is a very dangerous Western culture or the

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Speaker 2: consumerism side of it, where Jesus is kind of this

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Speaker 2: product who exists for you know, for my benefit. That

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Speaker 2: is Western culture. But but the idea of looking at

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Speaker 2: him and kind of making him in our own image,

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Speaker 2: I think that's I think it'd be fair to say

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Speaker 2: that's been around since Jesus, you know, since he walked

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Speaker 2: the earth. But the way we do it, some of

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Speaker 2: that is I think maybe uniquely Western.

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Speaker 1: For someone who reads this book and or watches this

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Speaker 1: interview to realizes they've been following the wrong Jesus. They've

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Speaker 1: been following their own you know, Jesus, they defined themselves.

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Speaker 1: What what's the first step toward embracing the real Messiah?

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Speaker 1: What do you want them to take away from this book,

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Speaker 1: But I think.

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Speaker 2: You know so much of this is a humility to

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Speaker 2: look in the mirror and ask yourself some questions, you know,

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Speaker 2: like it like when's the last time following Jesus costs

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Speaker 2: me something? Or you know, you do I get more

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Speaker 2: upset about political outcomes that I do about you know,

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Speaker 2: people not knowing Jesus. Do my bank statements reflect my

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Speaker 2: stated beliefs? You know? It's it's being able to look

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Speaker 2: at that and and and align your life with His

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Speaker 2: messiah ship. And I I would just say that no

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Speaker 2: matter where you're at on your faith journey, there's a

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Speaker 2: room for that. Like I personally feel very convicted around

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Speaker 2: these things when I stop and reflect on my life

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Speaker 2: and think through them and break through them. So my

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Speaker 2: hope is, let me go back to my dresser illustration.

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Speaker 2: My hope is that this book will help people open

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Speaker 2: up every drawer of their life with this idea of

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Speaker 2: aligning my life with His lordship.

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Speaker 1: Maybe my final question way pastor we're seeing what many

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Speaker 1: are calling a spiritual awakening, some I'm calling a revival

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Speaker 1: across America right now, with college campuses filling arenas with students,

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Speaker 1: you know, worshiping baptisms, Bible sales are up, so and

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Speaker 1: so on and so forth. I'm just curious, what are

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Speaker 1: you seeing you in your city right now? Do you

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Speaker 1: see the evidence of that at all?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? We do, And like this really is is written

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Speaker 2: with that in mind, that where there's a spiritual awakening,

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Speaker 2: but that it's an opportunity then to take that awakening

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Speaker 2: and align that with life. Meaning that if if Bible

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Speaker 2: sales are up, but our Christian worldview doesn't match Bible sales,

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Speaker 2: or if our implementation of gospel doesn't reflect Bible sales,

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Speaker 2: then you know we're going to miss a moment. So

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Speaker 2: so with this spiritual awakening needs to come spiritual alignment.

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Speaker 2: And what I see is maybe a generation of believers

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Speaker 2: and I'm excited about this that have a spiritual interest

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Speaker 2: in awakening. But now's our opportunity to say, you know,

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Speaker 2: just as Jesus did in the gospels, okay, now come

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Speaker 2: follow me, and here's what that looks like.

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Speaker 1: Here's what that means. Would you say, this is sort

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Speaker 1: of in the realm of synctification and discipleship. That's that's

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Speaker 1: kind of what your book is referencing. H yeah for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's an invitation to say, Okay, this is a journey

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Speaker 2: that I'm going to be on. I'm not just I'm

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Speaker 2: not just going to step over a line of ye know,

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Speaker 2: saying here's what I believe, but I'm recognizing that following

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Speaker 2: Jesus is a journey of recognizing him as king.

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Speaker 3: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe

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Speaker 3: and share the episode.

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Speaker 1: With a friend.

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Speaker 3: A big thanks to the team at life Audio for

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Speaker 3: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go

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Speaker 3: to lifeaudio dot com, you will find dozens of other

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Speaker 3: faith centered podcasts in their network.

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Speaker 1: See you next time.