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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Tell me why this is controversial.

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Speaker 1: A man I deeply respect, not going to mention his name,

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Speaker 1: who definitively says there are no animals in heaven. None.

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Speaker 1: Which to me just struck me as so strange because

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Speaker 1: what about Isaiah 11? The knowledge of the Lord will

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Speaker 1: be everywhere. Animals will be at peace with each other.

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Speaker 1: Predators with prey. The wolf will live with the lamb.

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Speaker 1: Job is supposed to learn... from the animals how great

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Speaker 1: he is. Now, I think we've gone a long ways away.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of us have just lost touch

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Speaker 1: with the animal world and God's greatness as displayed in animals.

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Speaker 2: Will our pets be in heaven? Do animals have souls?

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Speaker 2: Will there be hunting, fishing, and meat eating on the

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Speaker 2: new earth? Might some animals talk on the new earth?

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Speaker 2: These are a few of the questions we're going to

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Speaker 2: explore with our guest today, Randy Alcorn, who's author of

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Speaker 2: the mega best-selling book, Heaven, but has a new book

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Speaker 2: coming out. It's called All God's Creatures, What the Bible

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Speaker 2: Says About Animals, Heaven, and the New Earth. Randy, thanks

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Speaker 2: for coming down to Biola Talbot School of Theology to

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Speaker 2: talk with me in person.

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Speaker 1: Great to be with you, Sean.

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Speaker 2: So my question right away, you emailed me and you

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Speaker 2: kindly asked me to endorse it, read it, happy to

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Speaker 2: do so, endorse it enthusiastically. But in the back of

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Speaker 2: my mind was like, why is Randy Alcorn writing a

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Speaker 2: book on animals in heaven? Connect those dots for us.

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Speaker 1: Well, having written the big book on heaven and having

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Speaker 1: a lot of people read it and ask questions, I mean,

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Speaker 1: constantly emails, texts, phone calls. Whenever I speak somewhere, they're

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Speaker 1: asking questions about heaven. But the question most asked is

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Speaker 1: about animals. It's about animals in the Bible. And will

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Speaker 1: there be animals on the new earth? And if there

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Speaker 1: are animals on the new earth, might our pets be

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Speaker 1: among them? And this question just comes up all the time.

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Speaker 2: That's so interesting. I was just on a college campus

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Speaker 2: two days ago and I get questions a lot and

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Speaker 2: animals come up sometimes. But is it like by far

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Speaker 2: questions on heaven, like animals in a category of its own?

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Speaker 2: That's what troubles people?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And I would say in some cases, the reason

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Speaker 1: they're troubled is they have heard some pretty definitive dogmatic

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Speaker 1: statement that there will be no animals in heaven. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things I say to people is you

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Speaker 1: have to define what you mean by heaven. If heaven

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Speaker 1: is a disembodied state, if you're talking about the pre-resurrection state,

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Speaker 1: then for animals, that would be like purgatory to not

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Speaker 1: have bodies, you know, to be disembodied. I mean, because

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Speaker 1: animals love to sniff things and scratch things and run

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Speaker 1: on the ground. Yes. And we won't get into all

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Speaker 1: the things they do. But the point is, it's like

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Speaker 1: that's their nature. That's what they are. We are more

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Speaker 1: physical than we would like to believe. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure that it makes any sense to think in

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Speaker 1: terms of people Long term in a disembodied state because

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Speaker 1: God made us human beings created in his image. And

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Speaker 1: part of that was he took that body that was

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Speaker 1: on the ground and he breathed the breath of life

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Speaker 1: into it. And he became a soul, a living being.

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Speaker 1: And I think we're that two part nature. Animals are

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Speaker 1: that two part nature, especially sentient animals. You know, those

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Speaker 1: that are self-aware can feel pain and all that. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a question that's on a

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Speaker 1: lot of people's minds, but I think if you're thinking

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Speaker 1: of a disembodied state, it makes no sense for animals.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make that much sense for people either. But

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Speaker 1: the Bible promises resurrection for people, but it promises a

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Speaker 1: resurrected earth, a brand new earth. Now when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about a new earth and God bringing heaven down to

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Speaker 1: that new earth so that It is heaven on earth, literally.

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Speaker 1: You read that in Revelation 21 and 22, the throne

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Speaker 1: of God. God will dwell there on the new earth

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Speaker 1: with his people. Well, what's heaven? Heaven is where God

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Speaker 1: dwells with his people. Heaven is where the throne of

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Speaker 1: God is. Well, that's where we're going to live forever,

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Speaker 1: and that's called the new earth. Well, what does earth

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Speaker 1: consist of? Well, it consists of people, but that's not

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Speaker 1: all it consists of. It consists of physical things, you know, trees, flowers, lakes, rivers,

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Speaker 1: and it consists of animals. So then it would be

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Speaker 1: weird to have animals in a disembodied state. It would

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Speaker 1: be weird to not have animals on a new earth. Hmm. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I love this.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, your passion coming through is fun.

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Speaker 2: We were talking before about how you've had a ton

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Speaker 2: of animals in your life, fascinated by animals, but it

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Speaker 2: really was your book, Heaven, and we're going to get

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Speaker 2: into this, that made me for the first time realize

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Speaker 2: how animals are quite literally in the Bible from beginning

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Speaker 2: to end and like a thread that goes through all

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Speaker 2: of scripture. I don't know how I had missed that. Now,

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Speaker 2: before we get into some of this, You did kindly

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Speaker 2: email and you said, Sean, if you don't have time

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Speaker 2: or the inclination to endorse this, I understand it's kind

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Speaker 2: of a controversial book. Tell me why this is controversial.

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Speaker 1: Well, one reason is there are– I actually start in

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Speaker 1: the first chapter and talk about a man I deeply respect,

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Speaker 1: not going to mention his name, but who definitively numbers

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Speaker 1: of times in questions and answers at his church– Bible

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Speaker 1: teaching church definitely says there are no animals in heaven, none.

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Speaker 1: And it's not even, there's not even a possibility of it,

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Speaker 1: which to me just struck me as so strange because

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Speaker 1: what about Isaiah 11 and, you know, like nine, 10

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Speaker 1: different species of animals that are said to live on

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Speaker 1: the earth at a time when the earth shall be

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Speaker 1: filled with the knowledge of Yahweh and as the waters

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Speaker 1: cover the sea. The knowledge of the Lord will be everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and animals will be at peace with each other, predators

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Speaker 1: with prey. You know, some of the ones that are mentioned,

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Speaker 1: the wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will

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Speaker 1: lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion,

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Speaker 1: the yearling together, and a little child will lead them,

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Speaker 1: a cow will feed with the bear. Well, so far

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Speaker 1: we've got the four major predators that in Israel, and

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Speaker 1: their major prey lined up together, and they're living at

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Speaker 1: peace with each other. And then the infant will play

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Speaker 1: near the cobra's den. The young child will put its

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Speaker 1: hand into the viper's nest. They will neither harm nor

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Speaker 1: destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will

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Speaker 1: be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the

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Speaker 1: waters cover the sea. Well, what do you think this

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Speaker 1: is talking about? Now, some people restricted to the millennium.

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Speaker 1: They think, well, for a thousand-year kingdom, but then you go,

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Speaker 1: but in the millennium, It's going to end in rebellion.

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Speaker 1: It's going to end in people being cast into the

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Speaker 1: lake of fire. I mean, so this is not the

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Speaker 1: earth is yet filled with the knowledge of Yahweh as

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Speaker 1: the waters cover the sea because there's still sin. There's

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Speaker 1: still rebellion in the world. But on the new earth,

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Speaker 1: which it perfectly fits with, everything's going to be restored

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Speaker 1: to the beauty and the goodness. And it will be

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Speaker 1: a glorified Eden, a global Eden. And of course, animals

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Speaker 1: would be part of it. And this passage specifically says so.

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Speaker 2: Now, one of the things, this is a great quote

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Speaker 2: in your book that jumped out to me. You said

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Speaker 2: the biggest obstacle to people believing in an animal afterlife

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Speaker 2: is that their concept of the afterlife is misguided. So

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Speaker 2: it starts with the afterlife. And then if you have

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Speaker 2: a misguided understanding there, of course, it's going to filter

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Speaker 2: down to the animal afterlife. And you have this term,

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Speaker 2: by the way, that I love called Christoplatonism. And I'm

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Speaker 2: working separately on a book on a theology of the

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Speaker 2: body in the area of sexuality. And we have– in

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Speaker 2: the evangelical Protestant church, we make things so spiritual and Gnostic.

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Speaker 2: We miss the body. You're concerned with that in a

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Speaker 2: broader sense, and that's a part of the misconception of heaven,

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Speaker 2: isn't it?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. And if you think what the resurrection means, it

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Speaker 1: means that the way God created us was not a mistake.

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Speaker 1: He's not going to abandon– his concept of what it

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Speaker 1: means to be a human being, we are told that

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Speaker 1: if there is no resurrection, we Christians of all people

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Speaker 1: are most to be pitied.

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Speaker 2: Why?

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Speaker 1: Because we've devoted ourselves to the Lord and to his

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Speaker 1: world and the way he has made us and his

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Speaker 1: plan for the ages. We act sometimes as if when

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Speaker 1: the fall takes place in Genesis 3, that the devil

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Speaker 1: ends up really having a major victory over God, one

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Speaker 1: that God's kingdom will never recover from because the God

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Speaker 1: who wanted Adam and Eve to have dominion over the earth,

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Speaker 1: the animals, and to be fruitful and multiply, but it

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Speaker 1: all went bad. And since it all went bad, the

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Speaker 1: best God can do now is to send us up

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Speaker 1: to heaven to live there forever with the angels and

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Speaker 1: And so, sorry, his plan for earth is over. No,

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Speaker 1: the Bible teaches there will be a new earth, a

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Speaker 1: redeemed earth, a reconciled earth, a restored earth, all these

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Speaker 1: re-words that are used again and again in Scripture. That

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Speaker 1: is the promise he has for us. And you can

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Speaker 1: see this, Sean, when you just look at the way

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Speaker 1: we talked about the afterlife, because look at bucket lists.

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Speaker 1: So why do people, why do Christians have bucket lists? Well,

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Speaker 1: because this life is the one chance we have to

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Speaker 1: really do this fun thing. to do this exhilarating thing,

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Speaker 1: to climb a mountain, to go diving if you've never

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Speaker 1: done that before, to go do this, to ride a

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Speaker 1: horse if you've never ridden a horse before. Because we

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Speaker 1: won't have opportunities like that.

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Speaker 2: Why?

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Speaker 1: Because we'll be disembodied spirits in an angelic realm forever.

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Speaker 1: That's not what the Bible teaches. And so what the

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Speaker 1: Bible does teach is there will be this new earth,

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Speaker 1: a restoration of what was lost in the fall will

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Speaker 1: be regained. And look at Jesus, his resurrection body, and

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Speaker 1: we're told our bodies will be like his. And what

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Speaker 1: was his body like? He eats and drinks with the

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Speaker 1: disciples repeatedly. And he says, you know, touch me, handle me,

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Speaker 1: look at the scars on my hands and feet. This

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Speaker 1: is a real body, and he ate with them, and

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Speaker 1: the food didn't fall through the ground, right? Because he

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Speaker 1: had a real body. We will have a real body.

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Speaker 1: We will eat and drink with him on the new

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Speaker 1: earth and with each other. So now if you get

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Speaker 1: that straight in your mind that we're living on an

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Speaker 1: actual redeemed earth— then it would be not, well, why

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Speaker 1: would there be animals? It would be, why would there

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Speaker 1: not be animals? Of course there would be animals, even

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Speaker 1: if the Bible didn't specifically say so. But Isaiah 11

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Speaker 1: and Isaiah 65 specifically say so.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I think you're right. At the beginning of

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Speaker 2: your book on heaven, you have a quote, I forget

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Speaker 2: the particulars, about how one of Satan's greatest strategies is

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Speaker 2: to just confuse us about heaven. and got us from

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Speaker 2: the beauty and excitement and thrill of what heaven will

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Speaker 2: be like. And of course, the folks that we're talking

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Speaker 2: about today is the question of animals and whether they

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Speaker 2: will be there or not. So before we get into

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Speaker 2: some specifics that I open this with, maybe give us

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Speaker 2: a 30,000 foot view perspective. How does God view animals?

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Speaker 2: Does the Bible teach that God cares about animals?

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Speaker 1: It does. In fact, look at the life of Jesus

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Speaker 1: and he's talking about about the sparrows that fall from

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Speaker 1: the sky. And not one of those sparrows falls from

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Speaker 1: the sky without God paying attention. And he's not simply saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm omniscient. And so because I know everything, I see

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Speaker 1: those sparrows fall. No, there's a tenderness in what he's saying.

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Speaker 1: He's looking at that sparrow falling from the sky with

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Speaker 1: the heart of a God who didn't create the world

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Speaker 1: with death in mind, even though he knew it was

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Speaker 1: going to come, of course, because he knows everything. But

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Speaker 1: we need to understand that the animal kingdom fell under us.

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Speaker 1: And so the animal kingdom is under our dominion. So

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Speaker 1: on the coattails of our fall that related in our

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Speaker 1: suffering and death, likewise, the animal kingdom suffers and dies.

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Speaker 1: It's not disconnected. See the connection in the flood, which

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Speaker 1: is another example of a really critical passage that is,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Genesis 6 through 9. The amount of tension

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Speaker 1: that's given to the flood is huge. And animals are

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Speaker 1: huge in Genesis 1. And then they become huge again

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Speaker 1: in Genesis 6 through 9, where not only is Noah

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Speaker 1: and his family saved and rescued from the flood, but

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Speaker 1: animals are, but not just a few animals, animals of

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Speaker 1: every single species are brought on to the ark. And

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Speaker 1: God cares enough about them. And then the ones where

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Speaker 1: there's going to be sacrificial animals, seven pairs of them

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Speaker 1: to allow enough time to sacrifice them and then over

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Speaker 1: generations for them to multiply. And so we look at that.

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Speaker 1: And then in that same passage in Genesis 9, he

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Speaker 1: 11 times mentions all living creatures. So we have humans,

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Speaker 1: but then we have all living creatures. And then he says,

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Speaker 1: I make an eternal covenant with them. And it's the

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Speaker 1: Hebrew word olam, which is routinely used of just forever

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Speaker 1: and ever. So forever and ever for people. And then

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Speaker 1: there's an eternal covenant that he has, not just with

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Speaker 1: Noah and his family, but with all living creatures, which

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Speaker 1: makes you think now. Okay, it's nice that every time

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Speaker 1: you see a rainbow, it's a reminder that God is

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Speaker 1: not going to destroy the world by water again. But

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Speaker 1: if that's all that it means, it's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you'll be destroyed by everything else, you know, and

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Speaker 1: that's the end of it. Or is he really saying

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Speaker 1: that God has a provision in mind that doesn't only

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Speaker 1: extend to human beings— But that animals will also be

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Speaker 1: able to live on a new and redeemed earth one day.

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Speaker 1: And I think it does extend to that.

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Speaker 2: So if the question is, does God care about animals?

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Speaker 2: We go back to Genesis. We see at the beginning

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Speaker 2: in the garden pre-fall state. They're a part of just

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Speaker 2: this paradise that God makes. He saves animals through the flood,

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Speaker 2: which you described 11 times all creatures. Now, if we

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Speaker 2: jumped ahead to Revelation, we could have some very interesting

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Speaker 2: insights about the new heaven and the new earth and

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Speaker 2: just how many just nations and states are depicted through animals.

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Speaker 2: But of course, the big question is related to Jesus.

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Speaker 2: So if we were to like separate out how Jesus

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Speaker 2: viewed animals or how animals fit in the life of

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Speaker 2: Jesus and his ministry, what would you say?

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Speaker 1: Well, his birth. So his birthplace. You know, this is

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Speaker 1: a barn that has a manger. That's a feeding trough. Okay.

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Speaker 1: There were animals there. I mean, otherwise the trough would

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Speaker 1: make no sense, right? The manger would make no sense.

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Speaker 1: Fair enough. And so we don't know what animals were there,

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Speaker 1: but certainly probably, you know, cows, sheep, goats, you know,

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Speaker 1: whatever that people had. Okay. So they're there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're there to witness it before the shepherds. And certainly

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Speaker 1: long before the wise men were there, the animals were there. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't make it. What are you trying to say?

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Speaker 1: That the animals were essential to the birth of Jesus?

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Speaker 1: Of course not. They're just part of this world, this

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Speaker 1: human world and animal world that we share in together.

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Speaker 2: They're present. God didn't have to have them present. He

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Speaker 2: chose to have them present.

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Speaker 1: Then later, Jesus and the temptation. Mark is the gospel

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Speaker 1: writer who speaks about this. And interesting because that's the

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Speaker 1: shortest gospel. And yet he's the one that mentions that

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Speaker 1: in the temptation, Jesus was out there with the wild animals. Now,

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Speaker 1: we don't even— that' s not even developed. What happened? Why is

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Speaker 1: he even mentioning the wild animals? And I think it's

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Speaker 1: pretty easy to envision him out there like Daniel in

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Speaker 1: the lion's den, just with an ability to.

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Speaker 2: Be at peace with nature.

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Speaker 1: And that's speculation. Sure, that's fair. But I think it fits.

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Speaker 1: But then you have the other things he says, again,

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Speaker 1: about sparrows and all that. God does love animals. He

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Speaker 1: does care for them. And in fact, you've got Psalm 104,

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Speaker 1: this whole psalm about a lot of animals in there,

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Speaker 1: sea creatures and all that. You look in the book

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Speaker 1: of Job, and I was talking to somebody just the

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Speaker 1: other day at another conference I was at, and saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: and this is a person who knows the Bible very well,

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Speaker 1: and said, hey, what do you think in all of

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Speaker 1: the Bible, what is the longest monologue by far in

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Speaker 1: which it's just God talking. Not God talking through a prophet,

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Speaker 1: not God talking through an apostle, just God talking. And

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Speaker 1: the answer is almost four chapters in the book of Job.

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Speaker 1: What are those chapters about? Well, the first 20% of

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Speaker 1: those chapters, and it would be, what, 38, 39, 40, 41,

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Speaker 1: maybe slightly into 42. Okay, so you got... he's talking

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Speaker 1: at first just about the wonders of his creation, but

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Speaker 1: then 80% of what he says in those four chapters

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Speaker 1: is about animals. He's talking about eagles.

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Speaker 2: I never noticed that.

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Speaker 1: He's talking about ostriches. And some of them are kind

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Speaker 1: of bizarre, funny animals. And then he goes on about

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Speaker 1: the horse. And he goes on in, what is it,

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Speaker 1: chapter 39, about the horse and talking about the magnificence

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Speaker 1: of the horse. And if you've ever seen the movie Secretariat,

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Speaker 1: The beginning of Secretariat and the end of Secretariat are

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Speaker 1: quotations from Job. And one time I met the director

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Speaker 1: of that movie, who's a believer. And he says, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I put that in there because I went, it just

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Speaker 1: captures it. God is proud of the horse. You read

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Speaker 1: that and you go, he, I mean, he just eats

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Speaker 1: up the ground is one of the translations. He eats

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Speaker 1: up the ground. his speed and his pride and his

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Speaker 1: going into battle and all that. God is kind of

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Speaker 1: boasting about the horse that he's made. Then you got

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Speaker 1: Behemoth and you've got Leviathan. And again, in the book,

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Speaker 1: I get into what those might be. But the point is,

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Speaker 1: Job's questions are about why has God allowed him to

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Speaker 1: suffer so much? At the end, of it, Job goes,

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Speaker 1: I repent, dustcloth and ashes. And I'm, you know, God,

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Speaker 1: you were right. And I was wrong. And God says, no,

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Speaker 1: you've been righteous, Job. And now God is defending him.

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Speaker 1: It's your friends that, you know, now I want you

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Speaker 1: to pray for them, you know, and all that. But

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Speaker 1: the remarkable thing is that God has talked to him

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Speaker 1: about animals. And his magnificence as displayed in the animals.

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Speaker 1: Job is supposed to learn from the animals how great

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Speaker 1: he is. Now, I think we've gone a long ways

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Speaker 1: away from that. I think because we're so detached from

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Speaker 1: the animal, most of us. I mean, anybody who lives

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Speaker 1: in the city, other than seeing people walk a dog

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Speaker 1: or whatever, and there might be a cat or something,

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Speaker 1: but you don't even see horses very much in cities anymore.

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Speaker 1: It used to be. But, I mean, if you're out

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Speaker 1: in the country, maybe you're seeing animals a lot. I

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Speaker 1: was raised in the country, but I wasn't raised on

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Speaker 1: a farm. And I think a lot of us have

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Speaker 1: just lost touch with the animal world and God's greatness

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Speaker 1: as displayed in animals.

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Speaker 2: That's such a good point. And I love where you

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Speaker 2: started with the person of Jesus. You think about his birth,

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Speaker 2: his baptism. Of course, the Holy Spirit comes down like

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Speaker 2: a dove. His temptation. the teachings that Jesus gave. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's everywhere through all four gospels, like a drumbeat about

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Speaker 2: his animals. I had on Peter Singer, maybe, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe six, eight months ago.

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Speaker 1: Did you?

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Speaker 2: It was a great conversation. One of the leading philosophical

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Speaker 2: atheists for the half century.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know him well and I love your program,

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Speaker 1: but I missed that one.

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Speaker 2: Well, of course, he's really led some of the animal

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Speaker 2: liberation movement. And it was pretty cool to be able

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Speaker 2: to say, you know, you go back to the Old

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Speaker 2: Testament and And it's like a Sabbath is required for animals.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's passages. I think maybe it's a proverb

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Speaker 2: that talks about you can judge a man's character by

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Speaker 2: how he cares for his animals. Christians always haven't done this,

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Speaker 2: but it's a part of God's good creation. And it's

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Speaker 2: in there if we'd follow it.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: So let's get to some of the controversial questions. And

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Speaker 2: in fact, I told my co-host, Scott Ray, who you know,

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Speaker 2: he was hoping to be here today, could not be here.

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Speaker 2: I said, I have Randy Alcorn on to talk about animals.

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Speaker 2: He goes, make sure you ask him this question.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Because Scott Ray has written a book with J.P. Moreland

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Speaker 2: on the soul. Yeah. So he goes, ask Randy, what

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Speaker 2: does he think about do animals have souls?

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Speaker 1: I think the definite answer is yes. Now, at least

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Speaker 1: some animals, at least sentient, higher animals, self-aware, feel pain,

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Speaker 1: all of that. And here's how we know this. The

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Speaker 1: Hebrew word nefesh is a word that is translated soul

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Speaker 1: when it's used of human beings early in Genesis. So

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Speaker 1: he became a soul, a living soul of Adam and Eve.

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Speaker 1: They're called souls, nefesh. Now, Exactly the same word in

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Speaker 1: exactly the same context when it's used of animals is

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Speaker 1: usually translated, they became living creatures. Now, the old translations

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Speaker 1: say souls. So like Wycliffe, Tyndale, they said souls back

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Speaker 1: then because it's the same word, right?

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Speaker 2: That's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: But in the modern era, it seemed to sound a

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Speaker 1: little weird to people to say souls because it would imply...

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Speaker 1: that animals and people were equals. Well, they're not equals,

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Speaker 1: but there are animal souls and there are people souls.

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Speaker 1: And so somebody will say, well, of course animals don't

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Speaker 1: have souls. They're not made in the image of God. Well,

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Speaker 1: angels aren't made in the image of God, but that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they aren't valuable. It doesn't mean they

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Speaker 1: can't be in heaven. You know, yes, they have souls.

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Speaker 1: They have animal souls. It doesn't equate them, but it

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Speaker 1: does say nothing else has souls. You know, so in

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Speaker 1: other words, People, animals, even if you consider it a

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Speaker 1: lesser level of soul. The word soul, nefesh, and then

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Speaker 1: in the New Testament, suke, or neumai, for spirit, and

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Speaker 1: the Old Testament, ruach, for spirit, and animals in Ecclesiastes

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Speaker 1: are said to have spirits, and so are people. the

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Speaker 1: spirits of the one go up and the spirits of

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Speaker 1: the one, you know, that whole, that whole thing. So

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Speaker 1: all's that saying is that there is something more to

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Speaker 1: an animal, at least higher animals than a body. And

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Speaker 1: everyone knows that that's around animals. They have, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you call them personalities. They're not persons, but yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what we call them. Sure. We see the difference. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've had in my life, I've had seven dogs and,

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Speaker 1: Every single one of them distinctly different from the time

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Speaker 1: I was a kid and up to the one that

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Speaker 1: I have now, the one that Nancy and I, before

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Speaker 1: she went home to the Lord four years ago, picked

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Speaker 1: out together. We had a golden retriever named Maggie, who

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Speaker 1: I talk about in the book. And it's just, but

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Speaker 1: there is something about, there is something that is intangible,

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Speaker 1: but very real. And everyone who's been around animals knows

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Speaker 1: especially a pet that gets really close to you and

429
00:25:24,670 --> 00:25:27,750
Speaker 1: you see God use that pet in your life to

430
00:25:27,810 --> 00:25:31,790
Speaker 1: console you, to help you through grief. And that is

431
00:25:31,890 --> 00:25:35,229
Speaker 1: exactly what is happening. And therapy dogs, I mean, it's everywhere.

432
00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:39,780
Speaker 1: The whole, the secular world knows it. And what's very

433
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: interesting is the secular world knows it, but the Christian

434
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,459
Speaker 1: world sometimes tends, no, we don't want to do that

435
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: because we associate animals with evolution and Charles Darwin. No,

436
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:53,510
Speaker 1: God made them. Darwin did not make that. I love it.

437
00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:57,410
Speaker 2: So for clarification, by a soul, you kind of mean

438
00:25:57,430 --> 00:26:00,730
Speaker 2: an immaterial part of the self.

439
00:26:01,050 --> 00:26:01,250
Speaker 1: Right.

440
00:26:01,390 --> 00:26:05,130
Speaker 2: And of course, human souls are different from animal souls.

441
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:09,980
Speaker 2: We have faculties, things like creativity that animals don't have.

442
00:26:10,340 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: We have a moral conscience, higher level thinking. We can

443
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: solve problems. So animals don't have the equivalent kind of

444
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,950
Speaker 2: soul that we have. But clearly, when an animal– dies

445
00:26:22,210 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 2: there's it's now it's just a body and the personality

446
00:26:27,060 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: and the soul itself is now gone right so that's

447
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,939
Speaker 2: all you're saying that humans are body and soul and

448
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,740
Speaker 2: animals are body and soul so is the main difference

449
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,139
Speaker 2: that our souls are more complex and we're able to

450
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,139
Speaker 2: relate to god in a way that animals don't what

451
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,350
Speaker 2: would you say is the difference between a human soul

452
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: and an animal soul.

453
00:26:47,650 --> 00:26:52,090
Speaker 1: Well, I think that there's a lot of similarities and

454
00:26:52,190 --> 00:26:55,230
Speaker 1: the fact the same word is used of them is huge. Okay.

455
00:26:55,670 --> 00:26:58,340
Speaker 1: But the difference would be we are creating the image

456
00:26:58,380 --> 00:27:03,260
Speaker 1: of God. We have certain aspects of the divine personhood,

457
00:27:03,780 --> 00:27:07,300
Speaker 1: you know, that a lot of people say, well, the

458
00:27:07,340 --> 00:27:11,380
Speaker 1: big difference is we're intended to live forever and animals aren't.

459
00:27:11,980 --> 00:27:15,149
Speaker 1: And so we've gotten so accustomed to the idea of

460
00:27:15,210 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: annihilation for animals that that we've kind of lost the

461
00:27:18,940 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: sense of, well, Romans 8 is a perfect example of it.

462
00:27:23,020 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: In Romans 8, you've got the whole creation distinguished from

463
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,300
Speaker 1: we ourselves. Paul says, we ourselves suffer, but the whole

464
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: creation is groaning in suffering. And we ourselves groan in

465
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,300
Speaker 1: our suffering. What's he doing? He's distinguishing between us as

466
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,980
Speaker 1: human beings and another part of creation that suffers. Well,

467
00:27:47,390 --> 00:27:49,810
Speaker 1: who else in the world, what else in the world

468
00:27:50,450 --> 00:27:56,570
Speaker 1: literally suffers besides human beings? I think the answer is obvious, animals. Okay,

469
00:27:56,950 --> 00:28:00,609
Speaker 1: so then he says, and so the whole creation is

470
00:28:00,730 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: looking forward to the redemption of our bodies. Why is

471
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,420
Speaker 1: the rest of creation looking forward to the redemption of

472
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,980
Speaker 1: our bodies? Is it the resurrection, right? We know that. Okay,

473
00:28:15,020 --> 00:28:19,629
Speaker 1: so In what sense is the animal world looking forward

474
00:28:19,650 --> 00:28:21,690
Speaker 1: to it? Well, the only sense in which they look

475
00:28:21,730 --> 00:28:26,350
Speaker 1: forward to it would be the idea that they, too,

476
00:28:26,790 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: could be liberated from the curse. They, too, could be

477
00:28:29,670 --> 00:28:33,810
Speaker 1: liberated from the bondage, as Paul puts it in Romans 8.

478
00:28:33,810 --> 00:28:37,690
Speaker 1: And then that would fit perfectly with Isaiah 11 and 65.

479
00:28:37,690 --> 00:28:39,660
Speaker 1: Why would there be animals on New Earth? Because they

480
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,500
Speaker 1: too fell under our sin. They didn't sin, but they

481
00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: fell under our sin. And just as they fell on

482
00:28:46,460 --> 00:28:50,580
Speaker 1: our coattails, it appears they will rise on our coattails.

483
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,340
Speaker 1: I say in the book, I don't like to use

484
00:28:53,460 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: the term redemption or resurrection of animals because the Bible

485
00:28:57,820 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: doesn't use those terms. But it does use the term

486
00:29:00,830 --> 00:29:06,460
Speaker 1: restored life. Reconciled, you see in Colossians. You see this

487
00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:11,330
Speaker 1: in Colossians 1, 19. God was pleased to have all

488
00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:14,650
Speaker 1: of his fullness dwell in him, Christ, and through him

489
00:29:15,010 --> 00:29:19,970
Speaker 1: to reconcile everything to himself. And in the original Greek,

490
00:29:20,050 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: everything means everything. Whether things on earth or things in heaven. Well,

491
00:29:27,540 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: do animals qualify as things on earth?

492
00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: No.

493
00:29:31,030 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, pretty obviously. Whether things on earth or

494
00:29:34,420 --> 00:29:39,140
Speaker 1: things in heaven, in making by making peace through his

495
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,580
Speaker 1: blood shed on the cross. Now, I do not believe

496
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,660
Speaker 1: that God died for animals, but very clearly it's saying

497
00:29:47,980 --> 00:29:52,100
Speaker 1: the shed blood of Jesus died. will result in more

498
00:29:52,260 --> 00:29:56,180
Speaker 1: eternal good than only the salvation of human beings. And

499
00:29:56,270 --> 00:30:01,730
Speaker 1: so call it restoration, as other passages do, Ephesians 1,

500
00:30:01,730 --> 00:30:08,290
Speaker 1: Acts 2, Matthew 19. There's a number of passages that

501
00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:12,100
Speaker 1: speak of restoration in the world to come, and they'll

502
00:30:12,180 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: often use things, all things is used. I've got a

503
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,060
Speaker 1: whole chapter on all things in the Bible, and then

504
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,510
Speaker 1: at the end of it saying, Do you really believe

505
00:30:20,950 --> 00:30:23,410
Speaker 1: when God says all things that he means all things

506
00:30:23,470 --> 00:30:25,709
Speaker 1: but animals? I really don't think so.

507
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: But let's jump into some of the more common questions

508
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: that you get. And I'm really eager for your take

509
00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:34,540
Speaker 2: on this one. So here we go. You said there'll

510
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: be animals in the new heavens and the new earth,

511
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: and they ride our coattails, so to speak. What about

512
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,900
Speaker 2: pets on the new heavens and the new earth?

513
00:30:44,420 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: Well, here's the interesting thing. If you are convinced that

514
00:30:49,210 --> 00:30:51,740
Speaker 1: That the animals that are said to be on the

515
00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:53,900
Speaker 1: New Earth, to me, I don't even know why people

516
00:30:53,940 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: debate this because it's clear. Okay. But if you believe

517
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:04,250
Speaker 1: those will be brand new, never having existed animals in

518
00:31:04,290 --> 00:31:07,750
Speaker 1: the past, never alive in the world under the curse,

519
00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: created ex nihilo for the New Earth, if that's your belief,

520
00:31:13,340 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: then you'd go, okay, well, then I guess our pets

521
00:31:15,620 --> 00:31:17,420
Speaker 1: won't be there because they lived on the Old Earth.

522
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,910
Speaker 1: Makes sense. But what if, just like all the human

523
00:31:21,950 --> 00:31:24,710
Speaker 1: beings on the new earth, will be human beings who

524
00:31:24,750 --> 00:31:29,020
Speaker 1: lived on the old earth? Right? Well, what if all,

525
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,820
Speaker 1: or many, you know, not even necessarily all, but what

526
00:31:32,860 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: if many of the animals who lived on the older

527
00:31:34,980 --> 00:31:37,460
Speaker 1: earth are the ones who will live, that we know

528
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,260
Speaker 1: will live on the new earth? Wouldn't that fit Romans 8?

529
00:31:41,260 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: The same animals who suffered and groaned and cried out

530
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:48,910
Speaker 1: in their suffering. And I'll tell you, I've got a

531
00:31:48,930 --> 00:31:52,170
Speaker 1: chapter in the book. It's not super fun, but about

532
00:31:52,570 --> 00:31:54,950
Speaker 1: a part of it, not the whole thing, but deals

533
00:31:55,030 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: with the extent of suffering in the animal world. There

534
00:31:58,980 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: are ethicists who just say, look, the biggest problem actually

535
00:32:05,180 --> 00:32:09,380
Speaker 1: is not human suffering because at least humans... the suffering

536
00:32:09,420 --> 00:32:12,060
Speaker 1: could be compensated for in the life to come in heaven.

537
00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:15,610
Speaker 1: But if animals don't have a new world in which

538
00:32:15,650 --> 00:32:22,090
Speaker 1: to live, new bodies where they will not suffer, then animals, God,

539
00:32:22,270 --> 00:32:26,690
Speaker 1: I mean, annihilation is not deliverance. They're ceasing to exist.

540
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,660
Speaker 1: If that's all it means, that they will be relieved

541
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,220
Speaker 1: of suffering, that isn't much of a consolation because it

542
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,310
Speaker 1: means they won't be there to experience suffering. what it

543
00:32:36,370 --> 00:32:38,430
Speaker 1: means to be at peace with the world like those

544
00:32:38,570 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: animals are described in Isaiah 11.

545
00:32:40,830 --> 00:32:45,150
Speaker 2: So there's no chapter and verse saying there'll be specific pets,

546
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:48,290
Speaker 2: but you've reasoned together and you'd say you're more confident

547
00:32:48,330 --> 00:32:52,340
Speaker 2: than not because of God's character, because of animal suffering,

548
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: the recreation, that it is probable that our pets would

549
00:32:56,180 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: be there. Is that fair?

550
00:32:57,100 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: I think it is fair. For me, it's probable, but

551
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,100
Speaker 1: you've got to say it's possible. I mean, if you

552
00:33:02,140 --> 00:33:06,830
Speaker 1: take Romans 8 seriously— And you see this as the

553
00:33:06,930 --> 00:33:09,900
Speaker 1: crying out of creation and all that. And then you say, well,

554
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: there'll be some animals that lived on the old earth. Oh, well,

555
00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: when you get there, then you go, well, now let's

556
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,110
Speaker 1: bring the character of God to bear. Let's take his

557
00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:24,130
Speaker 1: love for his children to bear. Now, I don't agree

558
00:33:24,170 --> 00:33:26,890
Speaker 1: with the logic where people say— and I've read a number

559
00:33:26,930 --> 00:33:31,590
Speaker 1: of self-published books, especially— where people say, I know my

560
00:33:31,610 --> 00:33:33,530
Speaker 1: dog will be in heaven because it wouldn't be heaven

561
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:36,850
Speaker 1: if my dog wasn't there. There's some pretty circular reason

562
00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:42,030
Speaker 1: that happens there. But at the same time, does God

563
00:33:42,150 --> 00:33:47,300
Speaker 1: care enough about his children? Will he do above and beyond,

564
00:33:47,420 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: exceedingly beyond what we ask or think? If anyone on

565
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,500
Speaker 1: the new earth ever would say to God, you know,

566
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,980
Speaker 1: I miss that dog you gave me. And he just

567
00:33:58,140 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: meant so much to me, Lord. He was there for me.

568
00:34:00,660 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: I mean, there have been animals that have been there

569
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:07,460
Speaker 1: for children who have been abused by human beings. And

570
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,300
Speaker 1: those animals meant the world to them. There's all kinds

571
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: of examples of what, you know, you have lonely widows.

572
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: You have people who have been considering taking their lives

573
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,779
Speaker 1: and don't end up taking their lives because they're I

574
00:34:22,820 --> 00:34:24,860
Speaker 1: need to stay here and take care of this animal.

575
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,190
Speaker 1: And I can't bear the idea of, but there, and

576
00:34:29,230 --> 00:34:31,969
Speaker 1: I can tell you through my grief and the process

577
00:34:32,010 --> 00:34:35,650
Speaker 1: with Nancy, just having that dog that we picked out together, Gracie,

578
00:34:36,090 --> 00:34:39,969
Speaker 1: and she's just, she loves life. She loves the day.

579
00:34:40,290 --> 00:34:42,969
Speaker 1: She loves the walks. She gets me outside of the house,

580
00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:46,049
Speaker 1: which is healthy for me and all of this. But

581
00:34:46,570 --> 00:34:49,690
Speaker 1: if any of us ever wanted that and had good memories,

582
00:34:49,710 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: is that all we'll have? Good memories? Of course, we'll

583
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,739
Speaker 1: never experience the joy of having a pet again and

584
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,940
Speaker 1: having Maggie back or Gracie get back or whoever it is.

585
00:35:02,070 --> 00:35:05,950
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, God who loved us enough to...

586
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,259
Speaker 1: Connect us with them in this life. Wouldn't it be

587
00:35:10,340 --> 00:35:12,790
Speaker 1: just like God? Wouldn't it be in keeping with his

588
00:35:12,850 --> 00:35:15,370
Speaker 1: character to do above and beyond for the children he loves?

589
00:35:16,270 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: You know, Jesus said, we know, you know, human beings,

590
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,460
Speaker 1: God knows how to give better gifts than human beings

591
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: know how to give. And don't we know how to

592
00:35:24,940 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: give a gift of an animal to a child? So

593
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,049
Speaker 1: why wouldn't God do that? I mean, unless you've got

594
00:35:32,090 --> 00:35:36,290
Speaker 1: some clear argument from the Bible saying, of those animals

595
00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:38,509
Speaker 1: that will live again on the new earth, none of

596
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:40,950
Speaker 1: them will be our pets. And you've got some logical

597
00:35:41,010 --> 00:35:42,890
Speaker 1: reasons for that. I actually can't find any.

598
00:35:43,219 --> 00:35:43,910
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting.

599
00:35:43,930 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: You're really.

600
00:35:44,989 --> 00:35:50,470
Speaker 2: inferring reasoning from the character of God, his love for us,

601
00:35:51,219 --> 00:35:54,700
Speaker 2: how much animals mean to us. You talked about how

602
00:35:54,739 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 2: much people love their animals, but in the book, I

603
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: hadn't really thought about this. You said a lot of

604
00:35:58,980 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: kids will say when they grow up, some of their

605
00:36:01,420 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: most traumatic experiences were the loss of an animal. Would

606
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,290
Speaker 2: a good God who loves us and wants to restore

607
00:36:10,430 --> 00:36:14,790
Speaker 2: creation not do this? At least minimally, I think everybody

608
00:36:14,830 --> 00:36:18,430
Speaker 2: has to say it's possible. But it maybe flips it

609
00:36:18,450 --> 00:36:20,140
Speaker 2: a little bit and says the burden of proof is

610
00:36:20,260 --> 00:36:24,580
Speaker 2: on somebody that God doesn't do that. If people are listening,

611
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: they're like, I don't buy it. Write in your questions,

612
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,410
Speaker 2: write in your objections. We'll be back. And Randy, who's

613
00:36:30,450 --> 00:36:32,469
Speaker 2: done a serious deep dive in this, will give us

614
00:36:32,510 --> 00:36:34,150
Speaker 2: two cents. But I'm going to ask you a question.

615
00:36:34,810 --> 00:36:37,969
Speaker 2: that right now, if some atheists and skeptical guests are

616
00:36:38,010 --> 00:36:40,890
Speaker 2: still with us, they're going to literally think you and

617
00:36:40,969 --> 00:36:44,049
Speaker 2: I are crazy, which is okay, because we believe in

618
00:36:44,110 --> 00:36:47,969
Speaker 2: a supernatural world in which Jesus has risen from the

619
00:36:48,030 --> 00:36:51,489
Speaker 2: grave and miracles happen. But I've got to ask you

620
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:55,739
Speaker 2: this question. Do you think animals might talk in the

621
00:36:55,780 --> 00:36:56,660
Speaker 2: new heavens and the new earth?

622
00:36:57,530 --> 00:36:59,549
Speaker 1: Well, of course, you know, we know if you just

623
00:36:59,610 --> 00:37:03,730
Speaker 1: go by Beatrix Potter, C.S. Lewis, Narnia, you know, all that,

624
00:37:04,290 --> 00:37:06,779
Speaker 1: and you say, well, yeah, but those are just stories. Yeah,

625
00:37:06,820 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: they are just stories. However, in the Bible, you have

626
00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:15,299
Speaker 1: a serpent who talks, and he's not called Satan. Of course,

627
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,030
Speaker 1: we know it's, you know, the evil one is in

628
00:37:19,230 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 1: that serpent, and yet... There's no response from Eve like, well,

629
00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 1: what is that serpent doing talking? This is weird. This

630
00:37:27,410 --> 00:37:30,790
Speaker 1: has never happened. Could there have been other talking animals?

631
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:33,029
Speaker 1: There could have been. Maybe there weren't. We don't know.

632
00:37:33,050 --> 00:37:35,250
Speaker 2: We got the donkey in numbers, of course.

633
00:37:35,370 --> 00:37:38,669
Speaker 1: That's where we're going next. No, that's all right. No,

634
00:37:38,690 --> 00:37:43,690
Speaker 1: Balaam's donkey. But here's the thing. We can look at

635
00:37:43,710 --> 00:37:46,589
Speaker 1: that and we say, of course, God is supernaturally doing this.

636
00:37:47,010 --> 00:37:49,989
Speaker 1: But when you read the actual text, I think what's

637
00:37:50,070 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: supernatural is he's giving the donkey a voice, human words

638
00:37:56,739 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: by which he can be understood. But what he says is,

639
00:38:01,219 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: when you were beating me, you know, I mean, it

640
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,530
Speaker 1: was like I was trying to do the right thing.

641
00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:09,630
Speaker 1: I was trying to protect you from all this kind

642
00:38:09,650 --> 00:38:14,130
Speaker 1: of stuff. And then the angel of God, who's probably

643
00:38:14,210 --> 00:38:16,540
Speaker 1: the son of God himself, Jesus, but you know, at

644
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:22,930
Speaker 1: the very least an angel, is saying, I was going

645
00:38:22,969 --> 00:38:25,830
Speaker 1: to kill you, Balaam, and I would have if not

646
00:38:25,870 --> 00:38:31,150
Speaker 1: for the donkey. So it's like the donkey's righteous and Balaam's,

647
00:38:31,250 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, this fool. But the donkey is given a

648
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: supernatural ability, yes, to speak, but he has thoughts, and

649
00:38:41,020 --> 00:38:46,089
Speaker 1: those thoughts are I think, are expressed now in his words. Now,

650
00:38:47,630 --> 00:38:50,630
Speaker 1: in his mind, were they as articulate as they finally

651
00:38:50,670 --> 00:38:54,210
Speaker 1: came out? You know, probably not. But John Wesley argues,

652
00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:56,549
Speaker 1: I've got a whole chapter on Wesley and animals, and

653
00:38:56,570 --> 00:38:59,910
Speaker 1: he spent a huge portion of his life on horseback.

654
00:39:00,030 --> 00:39:03,510
Speaker 1: I mean, it's phenomenal how much time he spent on horses,

655
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: and they were among his closest friends. And anyway, so,

656
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: but the things he said, he had a whole sermon

657
00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 1: on the general deliverance about how all creation is going

658
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: to experience the benefits of the resurrection of human beings.

659
00:39:17,219 --> 00:39:20,339
Speaker 1: Exactly Romans 8, exactly what I'm talking about. And he

660
00:39:20,450 --> 00:39:23,250
Speaker 1: preached it to people, and he talked about it, and

661
00:39:23,290 --> 00:39:26,069
Speaker 1: he said, I think just as we will be much

662
00:39:26,170 --> 00:39:29,670
Speaker 1: smarter than we are now, and our intellect will be restored,

663
00:39:29,710 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: what was lost in the fall will be restored, so animals,

664
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:34,739
Speaker 1: what they lost in the fall, and we will be

665
00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:39,170
Speaker 1: amazed at their intelligence, at their wonder and their beauty.

666
00:39:40,420 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 2: That's fascinating. I'm going to be honest with you, Randy.

667
00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: I don't know what I think about this one. I've

668
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,700
Speaker 2: got to process it a little bit, but I did

669
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,420
Speaker 2: a quick search just for movies with animals that talk.

670
00:39:51,739 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: So this is AI. If I miss one, experts on this,

671
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: forgive me. But the list goes on and on. Paddington, Babe,

672
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,860
Speaker 2: Stuart Little, Zootopia, The Lion King, Finding Nemo, Doolittle, Fantastic Mr. Fox,

673
00:40:03,260 --> 00:40:06,670
Speaker 2: on and on and on. And it makes you wonder, like,

674
00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:10,259
Speaker 2: there's something that we are fascinated by this. We're drawn

675
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: to this. Is that a good instinct that we have to,

676
00:40:14,060 --> 00:40:17,299
Speaker 2: I guess you could say, humanize animals in this way?

677
00:40:17,380 --> 00:40:19,980
Speaker 2: And will it be that way in heaven? If I'm

678
00:40:20,020 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: an atheist watching this right now, I would literally think

679
00:40:23,180 --> 00:40:26,340
Speaker 2: you and I have lost our minds. But with that said,

680
00:40:27,020 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 2: if God exists and he created the world, something from nothing,

681
00:40:31,940 --> 00:40:37,969
Speaker 2: made life from non-life, created the animals, And God is good. Minimally,

682
00:40:38,050 --> 00:40:43,460
Speaker 2: it is certainly within his powers to do so. That's undoubtable.

683
00:40:43,860 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: This is one that's going to be brewing in my

684
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 2: mind for a little bit on this one.

685
00:40:47,260 --> 00:40:48,500
Speaker 1: Okay.

686
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,060
Speaker 2: What about– here's an interesting question. Will there be oceans

687
00:40:53,260 --> 00:40:57,100
Speaker 2: and sea creatures on the new earth? Because Revelation seems

688
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,870
Speaker 2: to strongly suggest that there won't. Should we take that literally?

689
00:41:01,570 --> 00:41:02,390
Speaker 2: What's your take on that?

690
00:41:02,660 --> 00:41:05,500
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you have an interesting thing because no

691
00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:08,580
Speaker 1: longer any sea, you've got that in Revelation 21. That's

692
00:41:08,820 --> 00:41:11,340
Speaker 1: the only passage we had. And I would think, okay,

693
00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: so there's going to be no ocean. But there are

694
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: a number of Old Testament passages in contexts like Isaiah 60,

695
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:27,069
Speaker 1: Isaiah 65, where you have references to oceans. You have

696
00:41:27,090 --> 00:41:33,489
Speaker 1: Ezekiel 48. where there's this river flowing down from the

697
00:41:33,710 --> 00:41:37,770
Speaker 1: throne of God, and it's coming down, and it has

698
00:41:37,950 --> 00:41:41,169
Speaker 1: great trees growing on both sides of the river, just

699
00:41:41,250 --> 00:41:43,890
Speaker 1: exactly what it says about the tree of life that's

700
00:41:43,930 --> 00:41:47,950
Speaker 1: become a forest of life in Revelation 22. And then

701
00:41:48,010 --> 00:41:53,270
Speaker 1: it says, and it comes out into the sea, and

702
00:41:53,390 --> 00:41:57,190
Speaker 1: the water of the sea becomes fresh. In other words,

703
00:41:57,350 --> 00:42:01,930
Speaker 1: no more salt water. So you have this change that

704
00:42:01,989 --> 00:42:04,859
Speaker 1: is going to take place. And it's like, okay, if

705
00:42:04,980 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: the oceans aren't, you know, is since the world is

706
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: two thirds to three fourths ocean, is the new earth

707
00:42:15,820 --> 00:42:20,110
Speaker 1: going to have no ocean? And I think that's a stretch.

708
00:42:20,650 --> 00:42:25,130
Speaker 1: If the vast majority of what constitutes the earth is ocean, then,

709
00:42:26,050 --> 00:42:28,649
Speaker 1: And then it's a new earth. A new earth without

710
00:42:28,770 --> 00:42:30,930
Speaker 1: ocean would be strange. But again, if you just had

711
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:33,339
Speaker 1: that passage. But you do have those references. I go

712
00:42:33,390 --> 00:42:35,580
Speaker 1: into them in more detail in the book. And you

713
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: do have Psalm 104 where you've got these ocean creatures

714
00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: that are part of, you know. And obviously God created

715
00:42:41,540 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 1: them and intended them to have a purpose. The position

716
00:42:44,780 --> 00:42:48,509
Speaker 1: that I take is not simply a wishful thinking one

717
00:42:48,550 --> 00:42:50,989
Speaker 1: because for a while I just, I guess, just no

718
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:53,950
Speaker 1: more ocean. And then I read Charles Spurgeon preaching on

719
00:42:53,989 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: the passage and saying, you know what, I think we

720
00:42:58,100 --> 00:42:59,900
Speaker 1: have to, there are things in the book of Revelation

721
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: we take literally, things we take figuratively. This one, I

722
00:43:03,940 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: think we have to take figuratively. And then he makes

723
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,180
Speaker 1: the argument, which many, you know, New Testament scholars, Greek

724
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:16,149
Speaker 1: scholars take, which is why does God not, no more

725
00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:20,370
Speaker 1: C's in what sense? Okay, no more C's that separate

726
00:43:20,530 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: families from each other. No more seas where tidal waves

727
00:43:24,219 --> 00:43:28,250
Speaker 1: and floods come out of them and kill people. No

728
00:43:28,290 --> 00:43:34,489
Speaker 1: more seas where the enemy invaders come and attack us.

729
00:43:34,810 --> 00:43:38,229
Speaker 1: No more seas where people drown. No more seas with

730
00:43:38,750 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: creatures that devour people. No more seas in the bad

731
00:43:44,580 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: sense that oceans under the curse have. But Now we

732
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,969
Speaker 1: look at it today, and of course, people love to

733
00:43:52,989 --> 00:43:55,109
Speaker 1: go to the ocean. And Charles Spurgeon loved to go

734
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:58,649
Speaker 1: to the ocean. And it's like, where does this even

735
00:43:58,730 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: come from? No more seas. That's like, you know, thanks

736
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,589
Speaker 1: for taking away what I'm looking forward to. Like, Nancy

737
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,790
Speaker 1: loved the ocean. I love the ocean. And I love

738
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:13,710
Speaker 1: ocean creatures. I love snorkeling. I love diving. All of that.

739
00:44:14,310 --> 00:44:18,530
Speaker 1: And I just think that it's true. There's overwhelming suggestion

740
00:44:18,630 --> 00:44:21,029
Speaker 1: because of the passages that refer to oceans on the

741
00:44:21,070 --> 00:44:27,230
Speaker 1: New Earth that seas must be taken figuratively in Revelation 21.

742
00:44:27,230 --> 00:44:29,049
Speaker 2: That would be my guess. Not to mention just the

743
00:44:29,210 --> 00:44:32,110
Speaker 2: beauty of the sea. Yes. I mean, we're in Southern

744
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:35,210
Speaker 2: California and I bike to the beach every chance I

745
00:44:35,250 --> 00:44:36,660
Speaker 2: get just to see it.

746
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:38,180
Speaker 1: Right. But I.

747
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 2: I think you're right. When we look at what the

748
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,890
Speaker 2: sea represented, it was chaos. It was danger. It was uncertainty.

749
00:44:46,750 --> 00:44:49,390
Speaker 2: That's gone in the new heavens, in the new earth.

750
00:44:50,510 --> 00:44:53,780
Speaker 2: The animal that by far, hands down, has most always

751
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: fascinated me my entire life, and my mom and dad

752
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,100
Speaker 2: are sitting here in the studio audience listening. She can

753
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,180
Speaker 2: answer for me right now are sharks. And there's just

754
00:45:02,219 --> 00:45:06,300
Speaker 2: a certain fear and just fascination and awe at them.

755
00:45:06,380 --> 00:45:08,089
Speaker 2: So I don't want to get attacked in new heavens

756
00:45:08,140 --> 00:45:10,170
Speaker 2: and new earth. I'm pretty sure that one happened, but

757
00:45:10,190 --> 00:45:13,290
Speaker 2: like to be able to see these beautiful, amazing creatures

758
00:45:13,350 --> 00:45:14,930
Speaker 2: like that in a way we can live with them.

759
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:16,890
Speaker 2: I mean, that sure sounds awesome.

760
00:45:16,989 --> 00:45:19,610
Speaker 1: I do underwater photography is one of my favorite things.

761
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:23,339
Speaker 1: And one time I was filming and having to dive

762
00:45:23,380 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: down in the water to film at their level and

763
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,050
Speaker 1: get the, uh, a group of six, uh, sharks. And, um,

764
00:45:30,430 --> 00:45:33,509
Speaker 1: good size sharks, but these are reef sharks. If this

765
00:45:33,570 --> 00:45:36,010
Speaker 1: was a, you know, a great white shark or something

766
00:45:36,050 --> 00:45:39,569
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah. I mean, no, I would not be

767
00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:43,170
Speaker 1: diving down into their realm to take photos of them,

768
00:45:43,630 --> 00:45:46,710
Speaker 1: but to do that with these reef sharks. And I've

769
00:45:46,750 --> 00:45:50,549
Speaker 1: got photos of them at home and closeups. And I mean,

770
00:45:50,750 --> 00:45:54,330
Speaker 1: it was magnificent. And this is the thing where we,

771
00:45:54,350 --> 00:45:58,710
Speaker 1: a lot of people say, but you don't, These wild animals,

772
00:45:58,770 --> 00:46:03,150
Speaker 1: they're terrible. I mean, they're ferocious, you know, and bears

773
00:46:03,190 --> 00:46:05,890
Speaker 1: that maul people and even dogs that have mauled people

774
00:46:05,989 --> 00:46:07,710
Speaker 1: and all that. And so there's people who have this

775
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:10,750
Speaker 1: fear of animals. But what we've got to remind ourselves

776
00:46:10,770 --> 00:46:14,210
Speaker 1: is we've only known animals under the curse. And so

777
00:46:14,370 --> 00:46:17,260
Speaker 1: I can look at like snakes don't bother me. But

778
00:46:17,390 --> 00:46:20,739
Speaker 1: big spiders, tarantulas, oh my word. I'm with you on that.

779
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,540
Speaker 1: They make me kind of cringe. And I see people

780
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 1: with tarantulas crawling over their arms. But here's the thing.

781
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: Not only will they not pose a threat to us,

782
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: we won't pose a threat to them. But we will

783
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,970
Speaker 1: have no fear. We will not have any fear of them.

784
00:46:38,450 --> 00:46:42,250
Speaker 1: So some of the very creatures that we now dread,

785
00:46:42,710 --> 00:46:45,950
Speaker 1: and therefore that's another mark against animals. That's the argument

786
00:46:45,989 --> 00:46:49,489
Speaker 1: against them. Oh, you can't. What about mosquitoes? We don't

787
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:53,690
Speaker 1: want mosquitoes. Scorpions? Are you a fan of scorpions? Well,

788
00:46:54,130 --> 00:46:58,460
Speaker 1: we've never known scorpions as they were in Eden, right?

789
00:46:58,780 --> 00:47:01,980
Speaker 1: I mean, come on. It's... We've only seen them at

790
00:47:02,020 --> 00:47:05,940
Speaker 1: their worst, although we've seen some animals at their best,

791
00:47:05,980 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: and it's beautiful. I have a number of accounts in

792
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: the book of animals rescuing other animals of other species

793
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,100
Speaker 1: in addition to animals rescuing human beings. Some of these stories,

794
00:47:19,140 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: they're well-documented. They're just true. People that have been out

795
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,469
Speaker 1: swimming and had no idea why are they being circled

796
00:47:28,940 --> 00:47:33,790
Speaker 1: by these killer whales. Okay, and killer whales are not

797
00:47:34,090 --> 00:47:37,630
Speaker 1: killers of people. But they're being circled by them. And

798
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:40,509
Speaker 1: then they find out later, and this is all filmed,

799
00:47:40,989 --> 00:47:43,700
Speaker 1: there were a bunch of sharks that were trying to

800
00:47:43,860 --> 00:47:47,820
Speaker 1: get to the people and the whales and stories of dolphins,

801
00:47:47,900 --> 00:47:53,940
Speaker 1: very similar, circling around enough of them to keep the

802
00:47:53,980 --> 00:47:54,739
Speaker 1: predators away.

803
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,410
Speaker 2: That's really interesting. So I have three more questions for you.

804
00:47:58,260 --> 00:48:01,380
Speaker 2: And this next one is a little bit more sober.

805
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,460
Speaker 2: I was asked this question at a beautiful temple in

806
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:10,610
Speaker 2: downtown Boston recently at an outreach. Why does God allow

807
00:48:10,850 --> 00:48:12,310
Speaker 2: animals to suffer?

808
00:48:13,730 --> 00:48:18,170
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that it's part of the

809
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:21,990
Speaker 1: reminder they have suffered under us. Now, why would animals

810
00:48:22,050 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: suffer under us? Well, because they have that nefesh, capacity

811
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: to suffer that comes with being unique creatures. We are

812
00:48:32,780 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: unique creatures. They also are unique creatures. And we have

813
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: actually much more in common with them than we have

814
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,460
Speaker 1: in common with rocks and plants and trees.

815
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 2: Right.

816
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: And so I think that part of it is they, they, uh,

817
00:48:49,380 --> 00:48:52,660
Speaker 1: as they suffer on our coattails, so they prosper on

818
00:48:52,700 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: our coattails. You see this with a family that loves

819
00:48:55,580 --> 00:48:58,500
Speaker 1: their animals and loves their pets and loves that. And

820
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: you just see these happy, happy animals that bring joy

821
00:49:02,060 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: to us because they're happier than we are. And they, they,

822
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: they bring it to us. And I think part of

823
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,219
Speaker 1: the reason God allows suffering is it comes with the

824
00:49:09,260 --> 00:49:12,489
Speaker 1: same reason you allow suffering for people. And here's the thing.

825
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:20,130
Speaker 1: If there is no sense of, restoration of animals and

826
00:49:20,190 --> 00:49:25,169
Speaker 1: deliverance of animals from the groaning and suffering of Romans 8,

827
00:49:25,170 --> 00:49:28,860
Speaker 1: then I think you've got a very serious question. Why

828
00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: does God allow animal suffering? But if he actually has

829
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,300
Speaker 1: a solution to that, and if you take Romans 8

830
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: at face value, which I do, and think that it

831
00:49:38,219 --> 00:49:41,819
Speaker 1: will include animals, And if you consider that those animals

832
00:49:41,890 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: will be forever happy in relationship with each other and

833
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: with human beings on the new earth, then it makes

834
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,620
Speaker 1: sense in the same way that humans will be delivered

835
00:49:53,969 --> 00:49:58,530
Speaker 1: for eternity and this life will seem very small compared

836
00:49:58,850 --> 00:49:59,690
Speaker 1: to the life to come.

837
00:50:00,310 --> 00:50:03,390
Speaker 2: Great perspective. So two more questions for you. Will there

838
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:06,589
Speaker 2: be hunting, fishing, and meat eating in the new earth? Now,

839
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,910
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm not a big fisherman. I've actually

840
00:50:10,090 --> 00:50:12,870
Speaker 2: never shot an animal in my life and gone hunting,

841
00:50:12,930 --> 00:50:14,730
Speaker 2: but I don't in principle have a problem with it

842
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:16,990
Speaker 2: because I am a meat eater.

843
00:50:17,130 --> 00:50:17,770
Speaker 1: Yes, yes.

844
00:50:17,989 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: So will there be one of those, both of those,

845
00:50:20,140 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 2: all three of those? What's your best take on that?

846
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,140
Speaker 1: Well, and you can imagine, I'm from Oregon and hunting

847
00:50:26,219 --> 00:50:28,500
Speaker 1: is really big. I'm not a hunter myself, but a

848
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 1: lot of my closest friends are hunters and and fishermen.

849
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: And they talk about it all the time. They just say, oh, please, please,

850
00:50:36,020 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: when you write this book, please don't come down on us. Well,

851
00:50:39,260 --> 00:50:44,189
Speaker 1: first of all, in Genesis 9, God explicitly says, just

852
00:50:44,270 --> 00:50:48,450
Speaker 1: as you ate vegetation from the beginning, and this is

853
00:50:48,489 --> 00:50:55,070
Speaker 1: interesting because it's at least 1,500 years after Eden, before

854
00:50:55,170 --> 00:51:00,100
Speaker 1: the flood. You can calculate it different ways. But Only

855
00:51:00,180 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: then are people allowed to eat meat. But once we're

856
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,390
Speaker 1: permitted to eat meat, it's perfectly fine. And if you're

857
00:51:07,410 --> 00:51:09,589
Speaker 1: going to eat meat, you better kill it first, right?

858
00:51:09,690 --> 00:51:12,629
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just, you know, part of the deal, right?

859
00:51:12,989 --> 00:51:17,450
Speaker 1: So it's okay in a world under the curse. God

860
00:51:17,550 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: makes certain concessions to life under the curse, you know?

861
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,180
Speaker 1: And so I think that's one of them. But if

862
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: you were looking at the ultimate new earth and the

863
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:33,029
Speaker 1: promise of Isaiah 11 and 65, animals at peace with

864
00:51:33,110 --> 00:51:37,770
Speaker 1: one another, the lions that used to devour lambs and

865
00:51:37,950 --> 00:51:42,569
Speaker 1: goats and, you know, calves and all of that, and

866
00:51:42,730 --> 00:51:46,910
Speaker 1: the bears and all of them, you know, they will

867
00:51:47,090 --> 00:51:49,900
Speaker 1: be at peace. And they're said to be at peace

868
00:51:49,980 --> 00:51:53,700
Speaker 1: with what used to be their prey. And in the

869
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: very same sense, people are said to be at peace

870
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,620
Speaker 1: with them. Little children are to be at peace with them.

871
00:51:59,660 --> 00:52:03,370
Speaker 1: And so what I say is, look, God is fully

872
00:52:03,430 --> 00:52:11,090
Speaker 1: capable of making redeemed taste buds and redeemed fruit and

873
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,660
Speaker 1: taste better by far than they ever tasted to us.

874
00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: He can take away the taste of blood. I'm a

875
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,940
Speaker 1: carnivore like you. Okay. So I'm, I am not going,

876
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,859
Speaker 1: oh man, I'm a vegan. I'm a vegetarian. I'm just

877
00:52:24,940 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: against it in principle. That's not my argument. My argument

878
00:52:28,620 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: is that one day it will be like Eden. Were

879
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: they eating animals in Eden? And I think clearly the

880
00:52:34,060 --> 00:52:34,660
Speaker 1: answer is no.

881
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,150
Speaker 2: One possible response is it's amazing how much the technology

882
00:52:40,210 --> 00:52:45,070
Speaker 2: right now is creating these alternatives to meat that are artificial,

883
00:52:45,550 --> 00:52:49,230
Speaker 2: but it's getting better and better and tasting more and

884
00:52:49,330 --> 00:52:53,410
Speaker 2: more like meat. So it's like God could change our

885
00:52:53,469 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 2: taste buds, which I'm always, I guess I'm somewhat hesitant

886
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 2: to say he would change our taste buds, but maybe

887
00:52:59,540 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: you could persuade me of that another time. I'd be

888
00:53:02,260 --> 00:53:05,340
Speaker 2: more likely to be persuaded to say God makes something

889
00:53:05,380 --> 00:53:09,470
Speaker 2: that tastes like what we enjoy out of meat. And

890
00:53:09,530 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 2: that's really what matters more than the source of what

891
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 2: it came from. Again, if God is good and he

892
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,819
Speaker 2: has made us, God could clearly make something better than

893
00:53:17,860 --> 00:53:20,859
Speaker 2: the best technology in the world and the meat substitutes,

894
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,090
Speaker 2: which we don't enjoy. Okay, fair enough. So last question

895
00:53:24,110 --> 00:53:27,589
Speaker 2: about this is you obviously had some preconceptions going into

896
00:53:27,650 --> 00:53:30,270
Speaker 2: writing this book about animals. In fact, there's a good

897
00:53:30,310 --> 00:53:31,750
Speaker 2: amount in your book on heaven.

898
00:53:31,790 --> 00:53:32,150
Speaker 1: That's right.

899
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 2: It's two full chapters. So you went in with some preconceptions,

900
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:42,140
Speaker 2: some theology. What most surprised you as you dug into

901
00:53:42,180 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 2: this research? And did you change your mind on anything

902
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 2: related to animals, big or small, while you were researching

903
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:50,980
Speaker 2: and writing this book?

904
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the ways I changed my mind, Sean,

905
00:53:54,400 --> 00:54:01,180
Speaker 1: was just those four chapters in Job, Psalm 104, God's

906
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:07,150
Speaker 1: consistent argument for his own greatness as manifested in the

907
00:54:07,210 --> 00:54:09,870
Speaker 1: way he has created the animal world. Now, did I

908
00:54:09,930 --> 00:54:14,049
Speaker 1: know that God, of course, as Romans says, displayed his

909
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,860
Speaker 1: attributes in creation? Of course, I knew that. But I

910
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:22,180
Speaker 1: don't think I really had come to terms. I know

911
00:54:22,260 --> 00:54:25,419
Speaker 1: I hadn't come to terms with the extent of that.

912
00:54:25,660 --> 00:54:28,860
Speaker 1: And when you consider that there's only one kind of

913
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: human being in the world. Now, we think there's many

914
00:54:31,260 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: kinds of human beings because there's many colors and there's many.

915
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:34,299
Speaker 2: Sure.

916
00:54:34,380 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: But there's one kind of human being, right? Yeah. The

917
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:42,779
Speaker 1: diversity in the animal kingdom, some people say 9 million species,

918
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: some say 6 million species. Whatever number it is, the

919
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:52,969
Speaker 1: diversity that is there is stunning. The beauty is stunning.

920
00:54:53,070 --> 00:54:59,710
Speaker 1: These axatols, these tiny little things. You see in underwater creatures,

921
00:54:59,730 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 1: because I love watching documentaries on underwater creatures. What exists

922
00:55:04,940 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: in this world and the stunning, breathtaking beauty of it

923
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:14,299
Speaker 1: could not be exhausted in a million years. And we'll

924
00:55:14,340 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: have more than a million years. I'm telling you, it's

925
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 1: beyond belief. And will we have, you know, marine biologists

926
00:55:24,060 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: on the new earth? I know this. We may not

927
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,069
Speaker 1: have marine biologists or we may. But we will have

928
00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:33,810
Speaker 1: people looking at animals and marveling at them, and then

929
00:55:33,890 --> 00:55:36,350
Speaker 1: I think we will understand, as we never did before,

930
00:55:36,850 --> 00:55:41,110
Speaker 1: where God was trying to take Job, and that somehow

931
00:55:41,250 --> 00:55:46,169
Speaker 1: Job's view of God, and therefore his view of even

932
00:55:46,230 --> 00:55:49,509
Speaker 1: the problem of evil and suffering, should take on a

933
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:54,069
Speaker 1: new depth and resonance greater than it's ever been when

934
00:55:54,130 --> 00:55:57,070
Speaker 1: we consider the beauty of the animal world. And I

935
00:55:57,130 --> 00:56:02,109
Speaker 1: actually think we would be at a great deficiency to

936
00:56:02,190 --> 00:56:05,549
Speaker 1: not have animals. It's not just the animals wouldn't be there.

937
00:56:05,570 --> 00:56:08,050
Speaker 1: So that'd be bad for them. It would be, that

938
00:56:08,070 --> 00:56:10,390
Speaker 1: would be really bad for us because can you imagine

939
00:56:10,989 --> 00:56:12,930
Speaker 1: all these species in the world that we've never even

940
00:56:13,010 --> 00:56:17,270
Speaker 1: seen the display God's glory as Romans and other passages say,

941
00:56:17,790 --> 00:56:20,690
Speaker 1: can you imagine if we never had the opportunity to

942
00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:23,780
Speaker 1: see them? The average person in the world has seen a,

943
00:56:24,370 --> 00:56:29,130
Speaker 1: I think something well less than 1% of animal species

944
00:56:29,350 --> 00:56:32,810
Speaker 1: and maybe just a fraction of 1% that exist.

945
00:56:33,410 --> 00:56:34,610
Speaker 2: That's really interesting.

946
00:56:34,660 --> 00:56:37,910
Speaker 1: And so will the rest of the world never have

947
00:56:37,930 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: the opportunity to see those? Or will we have to

948
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 1: look at, you know, well, God, could you show us

949
00:56:42,380 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 1: on film what animals used to be? You know, no,

950
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: I won't show them to you on film. I think

951
00:56:47,020 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 1: they're just going to be right here and you'll see them.

952
00:56:50,100 --> 00:56:52,020
Speaker 2: Randy, I'm going to give you the best compliment I

953
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:54,390
Speaker 2: could give somebody, and that's that you remind me of

954
00:56:54,739 --> 00:56:59,009
Speaker 2: my dad. Your love for scripture, your enthusiasm. When you

955
00:56:59,050 --> 00:57:01,910
Speaker 2: talk about this, you just like almost can't contain yourself.

956
00:57:01,950 --> 00:57:03,819
Speaker 1: Well, I can't tell you how much I love your

957
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,380
Speaker 1: dad and the honor of being able to see your

958
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,820
Speaker 1: dad and mom over there right now. It's just beyond

959
00:57:10,340 --> 00:57:10,900
Speaker 1: measure for me.

960
00:57:11,230 --> 00:57:13,770
Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much for saying that. I thoroughly enjoyed

961
00:57:13,810 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 2: your book. I was talking to my wife about it going, man,

962
00:57:16,900 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 2: I've got to think about this some more. I don't

963
00:57:18,820 --> 00:57:21,700
Speaker 2: know that I've ever seen or really thought about a

964
00:57:22,100 --> 00:57:25,970
Speaker 2: theology of animals, a theology of the afterlife in animals.

965
00:57:26,590 --> 00:57:28,490
Speaker 2: It feels like this book should have been written a

966
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:30,810
Speaker 2: long time ago and maybe there's other books that have

967
00:57:30,830 --> 00:57:33,390
Speaker 2: been written and I missed it. I think you're going

968
00:57:33,410 --> 00:57:36,820
Speaker 2: to stir up some conversation in a good way, but

969
00:57:36,950 --> 00:57:40,660
Speaker 2: I suspect most people will be with you on most

970
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 2: of your answers here. And the ones where you admit

971
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,860
Speaker 2: animals talking, you're like, look, I'm speculating. I'm guessing. Like

972
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,450
Speaker 2: you admit that, which I appreciate, but it flows from

973
00:57:51,490 --> 00:57:54,890
Speaker 2: your understanding of God, understanding scriptures. And I think we

974
00:57:54,910 --> 00:57:58,570
Speaker 2: have some room to do that because the scriptures give

975
00:57:58,610 --> 00:58:01,220
Speaker 2: us some principles, give us some truths. And then we

976
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,300
Speaker 2: just do our best to piece it together in light

977
00:58:03,340 --> 00:58:05,700
Speaker 2: of what we do know. And I think you've done

978
00:58:05,740 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 2: that again with your book. All God's Creatures is fascinating. Folks,

979
00:58:10,420 --> 00:58:12,460
Speaker 2: you have way more. How many chapters are in the book?

980
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:14,020
Speaker 2: I don't even know if you remember, but there's 20.

981
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:18,260
Speaker 2: So there's about 10 or 15 more chapters than we

982
00:58:18,300 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 2: got to. Pick up a copy of All God's Creatures

983
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,980
Speaker 2: and make sure you subscribe to the Think Biblically podcast.

984
00:58:24,020 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the YouTube channel and spread the world to

985
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,350
Speaker 2: an animal lover in your life. to hear this podcast. Thanks, Randy.

986
00:58:32,190 --> 00:58:33,830
Speaker 1: Pleasure to be with you, Sean. Thank you.

987
00:58:34,770 --> 00:58:37,450
Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

988
00:58:37,530 --> 00:58:40,460
Speaker 2: follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

989
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:42,820
Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge

990
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

991
00:58:45,700 --> 00:58:50,060
Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

992
00:58:50,260 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

993
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

994
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,700
Speaker 2: where we have on-campus and online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation,

995
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,350
Speaker 2: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would

996
00:59:04,370 --> 00:59:07,330
Speaker 2: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

997
00:59:07,370 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 2: defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you

998
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:11,780
Speaker 2: when the next episode drops.