1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. He called to make a 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: difference in mental health. Columbia International University offers graduate counseling 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: degrees that combine professional excellence with Biblical truth from associates. 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: Through doctoral program, CiU prepares you to bring healing and 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: wholeness to others through a biblically based framework of compassion 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: and care. Whether it's their k CREP accredited Masters in 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: Clinical Counseling or their PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: You'll learn from experience faculty who integrate faith with real 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: world application to cultivate a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach, 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: and train. Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: CiU's counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: and spiritually. Visit CiU dot edu to learn more about 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: making a difference in mental health through christ centered education. 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode 22 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer. I'm joined again 23 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: by Ben Matthews. Ben is a professor of counselor education 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: at Columbia International University. And today we're going to be 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: talking a little bit about addiction and the numbing effects 26 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: of addiction and the new drug trends that are coming out. 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: And Ben and I were talking a little bit before 28 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: the episode. I'm most familiar with this. I still stay 29 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: involved a little bit with the fitness industry and try 30 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: to keep up there. And one of the things that 31 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: you're seeing if you look at any sort of fitness 32 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: thing on Instagram or if you just read any of 33 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: the literature, you're seeing this increase in testosterone placement therapy. 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: You're seeing an increase in steroid use. You're seeing use 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: of drugs like the glp ones and ozembic those are 36 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: kind of all over the place, and all of these 37 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: maybe except for the GOLP ones, which there's not been 38 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: a long term sort of study on these, but everybody 39 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: knows what happens with the antabolic steroids, like it's not 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: pretty later and you're having younger and younger kids get 41 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: on this stuff, and no matter how much people push 42 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: back in the fitness industry like hey, don't take this 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: until you're older or whatever, it's being normalized in ways 44 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: that is really strange and is creating these very short 45 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: term trade offs between I can get a big Instagram 46 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: following and get huge and get cut and I guess 47 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: I don't care about the long term effects of anabolic steroids. 48 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: It's a very strange movement. And my sense is that 49 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: it's not limited to the fitness industry, and so that's 50 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: sort of just a little entred into what we're to 51 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: be talking about here. 52 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something that we're seeing within the mental 53 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 2: health community as well. In a past graduate program I did, 54 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 2: one of my internships was at an outpatient psychiatric clinic, 55 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: and so I was mainly working with physicians who were 56 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: mainly just working with prescriptions. And this was kind of 57 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: you know, late nineties, early two thousands, as we were 58 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: seeing the rise of what's known as SSRIs selective serotonin 59 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: reuptake inhibitors as a major advancement for therapeutic use for 60 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: things like depression and anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorder and 61 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: a host of other things that are connected to the 62 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: neurotransmitter serotonin. What we've appreciated over time is that, yeah, 63 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: there's probably an element of serotonagic engagement regarding mental health issues. 64 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: But to say that it's simply a physiological that it's 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: just a neurotransmitter that's being developed was the concern that 66 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: we started seeing in that people just thought, well, if 67 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: I just take this pill and get my chemistry right, 68 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: life will be great. 69 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: All good, Yeah, it's all good, and. 70 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: Not recognizing well, no, your physiology is one component of 71 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: the problem, and yes, this may help that one component, 72 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: but if you don't address all the other not just biological, 73 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: but psychological, social, spiritual elements that go into holistic understandings 74 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: of humanity, it's no surprise that we would only see 75 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: the increase of dosage here because they're never dealing with 76 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: it over there. Kind of like the steroid user, well, 77 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: I don't want to have to do all things, but 78 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: if I just increase my steroid intake, I'll get ripped 79 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: faster and cut quicker. And well, yeah, no, you're you're 80 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: actually making the problem worse, and that you're relying on 81 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: this one what I call a common grace of God. 82 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: I do look at medicine as a means that can help, 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: and I don't want to again, kind of like technology, 84 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: I don't think we should throw it all away. I 85 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: think it's it's obviously done good for society in many 86 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 2: many ways. But if we're just it's the mechanistic concern, right, 87 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: if we're just a machine, then that's the answer. But 88 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: from a Christian perspective, we know we're more than just 89 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: a machine. We are this holistic reality of mind, body, 90 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: spirit that all elements need to be engaged with. And 91 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 2: there's sometimes a concern that we have that I think 92 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: we're coming to an understanding of that with SSRIs. Yeah, 93 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: there is another concern that we're now kind of treating 94 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: the therapeutic community in general kind of as the next 95 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: I can say it this way, the next SSRI. If 96 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: I can just get the therapy I need, it'll all 97 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: be great. 98 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. This came up at the end of our last episode, 99 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: and I think you said it really well there, it's 100 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: like it's meeting the need, but it can sustain the 101 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: need exactly. It can't be the long term solution here. 102 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: Here there's you know, it's almost like there's a a 103 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: little mini crisis happening. Let's say, and and so everybody's 104 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: on triage and as the triage system. This is a 105 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: really good triage, right, it's an aspect of a triage system. 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: But if something else doesn't get fixed, this is going 107 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: to cease to work at some point, right right, Like, 108 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: this isn't gonna the mash ten is not going to 109 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: hold we if we don't you know, if we don't 110 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: figure something else out along the sides here, some other 111 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: areas have to be addressed. 112 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it goes from a point of well, yeah, 113 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 2: it can meet the need. But when it, like we 114 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 2: said before, it doesn't sustain it, but we keep on 115 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: using it, it becomes then not just a matter of 116 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: addressing the problem, but now I got to use it 117 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: to kind of just numb the problem. Like, Okay, it 118 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: continues not work, but I'm in the cycle of it now, 119 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 2: I'm in the constant grip of it. Whether that be 120 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: a pharma pharmacological reality, whether that be alcohol. The article 121 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: we keep referencing talked about the particular spike of alcoholism, yes, 122 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: and the corollaries to that, and how that just continue 123 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: to see this increase of liver disease and all kinds 124 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: of problems because they thought and it did help on 125 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: a little level, but once you get into the grips 126 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: of it, now you're just having to use it to 127 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: maintain numbness, not health, not above the fray, but just 128 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: to be able to kind of basic function, to just 129 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: numb the pain that you're dealing with at some point. 130 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: But it continues just to dig the hole, right, it 131 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: actually makes things worse, so you just take more, and 132 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: this endless cycle of addiction just continues to spiral out 133 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: of hand. 134 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: When I think it's an intes Mark Lewis wrote this 135 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: article in the New England Journal of Medicine, and I'm 136 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: not an addiction expert by any stretch of the imagination. 137 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: So his argument was that addiction is less a disease 138 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: state than it is a learned behavior. Now, I don't 139 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: know that i'd be that strong on it, but one 140 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: of the things he said really rang true with me, 141 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: which was one we get into when people are addicted, 142 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: their social world shrink. And so you know, Ben, if 143 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: I'm addicted and I know that you're going to tell 144 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: me I should go get help, I'm probably going to 145 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: avoid you, right like I don't. You're of no help 146 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: to me because you're not going to help me feed 147 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: my addiction. So I'm going to seek out people who 148 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: are only going to help me feed my addiction. And 149 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: that's how the social world narrows, because now the point 150 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: of life is to get past this, to get this 151 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: thing that I think I need. And so the other 152 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: options that might otherwise be available right to me, the 153 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: choices that I might make in my life, sort of 154 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: fade into the background. I can't see him anymore. There's 155 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: a real way in which they cease to exist for me, 156 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: right because I'm so focused on this one thing. And 157 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: so he calls this like narrowing. It's been phrased as 158 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: reciprocal narrowing, where the addiction continually narrows you down so 159 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: that eventually you're just really seeking exactly what you're addicted to. 160 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 161 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like the model. Like I said, I'm not 162 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: sure on the science, that's just not my area, but 163 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: I like the model and it seems intuitively correct to say, 164 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: even with something like therapy, you could see how that 165 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: would begin to work. If therapy is the solution to 166 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: my problem, I'm going to continue going to therapy, and 167 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter what anyone else says to me, like, 168 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: be sure, friends might help, but I've got therapy. You know, 169 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: all these other being part of a community group, sure 170 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: that might help, but I've got therapy. And like, a 171 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: lot of these things are going to become I think, 172 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: increasingly difficult to convince people to go and do, simply 173 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: because if lewis right about his reciprocal narrowing, it's going 174 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: to be really difficult to get people off, you know. 175 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: And I don't think it's about drugs. It's about this 176 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: sort of narrowing a perception so that these other solutions 177 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: no longer feel like solutions. We've so framed the problem 178 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: as Nope, it's a problem that only you know. The 179 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: solution to this problem is therapy, and once you do that, 180 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to understand what other options might be 181 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: available to you. 182 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I agree, I think there may be an 183 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 2: an oversimplification of maybe what he's stating, and we need 184 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: to give some space for that. I do think there 185 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: was a research done a number of years ago by 186 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 2: Alexander It's called rat Park experiment. I don't know if 187 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: you've heard of that before, but it was trying to 188 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: get into some of these things that you were talking about. 189 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: They essentially had two groups of rats, one that we're 190 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: in a preclosed system, one that had this like essentially 191 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 2: rat paradise. Right, they had open fields, they kind of 192 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 2: had full access to, you know, members of the opposite sex, 193 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: so very closed, and they both had access to a 194 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: morphine drip. Okay, the research has been tried to replicate 195 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: a couple of times with some levels of success and 196 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: things like that, so there's some good criticisms of it. 197 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: But what the finding is essentially were was that those 198 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 2: that were in like rat paradise had a lower incidence 199 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: of engaging with the morphine and continued engage or addiction 200 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, comparatively to those that were in a 201 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: much more stressful, confined space that didn't have all the 202 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: luxuries as all the all the blessings if I can't 203 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: even use that word. They found the utilization of the 204 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: morphine drip to be more in the sense addictive Now again, 205 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 2: I don't want to to to flatten addiction out to 206 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: just well, just change your environment, life will be better. 207 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: That's way too much of an oversimplification, agreed. But what 208 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: the research did highlight was that we're again naive to 209 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: think that there isn't a sociological societal connection to why 210 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: people are constantly engaging with numbing activities like morphine, if 211 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: not gambling, if not drugs, if not social media, whatever 212 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 2: it is that we continue to then utilize, not just 213 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 2: because of its numbing properties that kind of just flatten 214 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: us out to not have to deal with the larger things, 215 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: but because we're not engaging in these larger perspectives of 216 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: what we need for a functioning society, community, recreation, engagement 217 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 2: of intimacy, all the things that these rats were able 218 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 2: to have. How much more do we need as people 219 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: made in the image of God? That when those are gone, 220 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 2: it doesn't cause addiction, but it makes addiction a lot 221 00:12:54,679 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: more powerful, It gives it more precedence in a person's life. 222 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: When you don't have all the things that you need 223 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: for human flourishing, you will reach out for whatever you 224 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: can to numb the pain. And there's something about that 225 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 2: that I think that needs to speak into. I think 226 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: what even counseling is doing these days, what the therapeutic 227 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: community is doing, is we're providing another morphine drip of 228 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: sorts where people are struggling and they're hurting, and again, 229 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: I think we need to meet them where they're at. Yeah, 230 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: but if we're not dealing with these larger systemic realities 231 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 2: of what's constituting why they're in pain, am I just 232 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 2: feeding the addiction? And that's part of the stewardship thing 233 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: that I was talking about before that as part of 234 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 2: a member of this community, I want to speak lovingly, winsomely, 235 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: but clearly to my colleagues and say, what are we 236 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 2: doing not just to help at the moment, but to 237 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 2: actually help with the greater need that I think is 238 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 2: pressing as to what got people into that moment as well. 239 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: No, so you're saying we need a rap paradise at 240 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: the end of the day, I'm hearing that clearly, totally 241 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,719 Speaker 1: get No. I agree, I mean, and I don't want 242 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: to boil addiction down to just environment either, but I'm 243 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: with you. I think there are factors. Environmental factors are real. 244 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: We shouldn't be ignoring them. The chemical dependencies are real 245 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: and we shouldn't be ignoring them. That you know, the 246 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: psychological factors are real and we shouldn't be ignoring them. 247 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: And so in saying just those three, if you are 248 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: only to address the psychological factors and environmental and the 249 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: physiological aside, you're. 250 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 3: Probably not going to solve the problem, right, exactly, right, 251 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 3: Like there needs to be these more holistic approaches and 252 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: understandings to how we would go about addressing these things, 253 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: because if there aren't. 254 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: The problem is going to probably not going to get solved. Yeah, right, 255 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: And I mean I think that's sort of the challenge 256 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: here is we we don't know how to we probably 257 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: should we probably we probably should know how to address 258 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: it holistically. But again, as our study that we've been 259 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: basing this on the death of the spare study, I'll 260 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: use this example as barriers as there are lower barriers 261 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: to entry to anything, you can expect for the quality 262 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: of those things to decline. Yeah right now, I'm not 263 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: saying that the therapeutic environment is in decline. So when 264 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: I'm saying quality, here's what I'm saying. The sort of 265 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: people who are going to come and seek therapy, probably 266 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to come and seek therapy, right, Like, 267 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: That's part of the overall quality of the environment. And 268 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: I think you've articulated that really well. So it's not 269 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: saying you're going to get a second rate therapist, it's 270 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: saying you probably didn't need therapy in the first place. 271 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: That degrades the quality of what's going on there to 272 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: some degree. It sort of pulls it down from when 273 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: you're dealing with someone who has a complex trauma to 274 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: someone who you know, got a paper cut this morning 275 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: and they're really distraught about it, right right. So so 276 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: there's that aspect, And what kind of comes to my mind, 277 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, is we think about access and what we 278 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: have access to and what's fairly addictive. Nowadays it's not 279 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: just drugs, although that's also the case, but you know, 280 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: you think about something like pornography. 281 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 282 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I can remember growing up as a kid 283 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: and you had these video stores, these mythic animal video 284 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: stores that nobody knows what I'm talking about anymore. You 285 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: used to have to go to a store roun a. 286 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: Video to go to a place, right Yeah. 287 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: And even before VHS tapes, you'd have the CD sort 288 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: of adult theaters. But just think about the societal restraints 289 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: that were in place to access these places. You had 290 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: to be over a certain age to get in, You 291 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: had to overcome any sort of fear that you would 292 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: be seen entering or exiting these places. Right. You know, 293 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: in the case of a video store, if you wanted 294 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: to get an adult movie, you had to actually bring 295 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: it to whoever was at the counter, and right, like, 296 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: you have all these like sort of oddities that you 297 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: have to go through, and you like psychologically you have 298 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: to overcome these and be like, Okay, I guess it's 299 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: worth it, right, Whereas now there are basically none of 300 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: those nothing, right. And so even some of the legislation 301 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: related to age requirements that has been put in place, 302 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: I was I've been doing some watching of that, and 303 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: people are actually saying, like, it's curtailing pornography use because 304 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: people don't want to verify their age because it makes 305 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: the activity less anonymous. And so that's what I mean, Like, 306 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: when we have these barriers to entry that are really 307 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: really low, people are going to flow into those spaces 308 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: that have no reason to be there. Yeah, right, and 309 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: and this sort of over flows the system. 310 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, which is where we're at it, right. 311 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: And and it's like maybe if we just ratchet the 312 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: barriers up a little bit, if we if we created 313 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: some environmental structure and and and made it so that 314 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: not everybody needed to come in, we could solve this problem. 315 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: But that's not a therapist problem. That's a societal problem. 316 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 2: And that's that's a great point, James, because the hope 317 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: is that we're I mean, the deeper work of healing 318 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: is about rebuilding meaning and belonging. That that needs to 319 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 2: happen in the context of those communities that were becoming 320 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 2: more isolated for more anonymous from you know that the 321 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 2: problem is not necessarily uh that that we are sexual 322 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 2: beings and desire to find stimulation of that. It's where 323 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: we think it's best found, right exactly that that that 324 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 2: that continues to be the narrative unfortunately from the garden right. 325 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: If I can just get it on my terms, if 326 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: I can just build my own reality, then I can 327 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: be God. I can do as I want in that sense, 328 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 2: And unfortunately, we continue to believe the lie. We continue 329 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: to build the lie and become much more insular, much 330 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 2: more isolated. And so for me again as a therapist. 331 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: I want to give space opportunity for people to talk 332 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 2: about those things, those struggles, And yet I also realize 333 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: I need to push, I need to challenge people to say, yeah, 334 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: but this needs to happen long before you probably came 335 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: into my office. Now, whether that's a lack of the 336 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: local church or the community, or yourself, or it's probably 337 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: a mix of most of those things, right, And so 338 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: how can I then both give you space to kind 339 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: of discuss those realities and say, Okay, how do we 340 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 2: rebuild that? And that, to me is part of the 341 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: joy of what I do in counseling. I not only 342 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 2: want to help you in the moment, I want to 343 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: help rebuild towards something better that this is. I mean 344 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 2: to put it in the arc of the gospel narrative, 345 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: we're on this side of the cross. The work is done, 346 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 2: and we're doing the work. He declares triumphantly, it is finished. 347 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: And so we know that the redemption, as it were, 348 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 2: is complete. And yet kind of like the garden, we're 349 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: in the garden two point zero where God says, Okay, now, 350 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,719 Speaker 2: I'd like to partner with you to then re engage, 351 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: to re repurpose the earth and the communities that I 352 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: set up for flourishing, not because I need you, not 353 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 2: like he needed Adam and Eve in Garden one point. 354 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 2: Oh right, but he wants to work with us as 355 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 2: image bearers. I now have a chance not just in 356 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: the therapy, but beyond the therapy to help clients and 357 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: others say, how do we start rebuilding these communities of flourishing. 358 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: What does that look like for this to actually be 359 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 2: a part of what we need. Because it's easy to 360 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 2: get the therapy, it's it's I want to be care 361 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 2: why I say that it's actually quite hard to find 362 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 2: a therapist. Yeah, but we're making more therapists, and that 363 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: the the opportunity to get counseling is much easier than 364 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: it was in the past. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, say 365 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 2: I the stigma is lower, like exactly, You've mentioned that too, Yeah, right, 366 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: the stigma is lower, And so in that sense, it's 367 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: it's easier to get counseling. Yeah, But just because it's easier, 368 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: as we've seen with so many other addictions, just because 369 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 2: the barriers are removed, doesn't necessarily mean that it's it's 370 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: necessarily a better thing. Even when it's a good thing. 371 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 2: I mean, it's one thing to talk about illicit drugs 372 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: and pornography and all these vices. I am not saying 373 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 2: that therapy is on par with. 374 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: Those vices, No, no, Yeah, the point is the barrier. 375 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: When the barriers are brought down, you're going to have 376 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: an influx of people who are going to try this. 377 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: They're they're going to see it as an a ready solution. Yeah, 378 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: And I think part of it you'd mentioned it in 379 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: a previous episode, where you know you're not going to 380 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: drift toward all holiness. Yeah, I do think we tend 381 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: to drift toward ease, right, And so you know, you 382 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: think about counseling, like there was there used to be 383 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: a stigma around counseling. If you're going to counseling, it's like, 384 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: oh right, marital count Oh that's wow, you guys must 385 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: really be on the rocks. Whereas now marital counseling it's like, 386 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: that's cool, that's probably good for you. Right. You know, 387 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: there's been this complete shift away from from that stigma 388 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: of any of it. And so what that does then 389 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: is it makes it just that much easier. And and 390 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: I think there's a there's an importance to that. It 391 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: needed to get easier, right, but then it gets too easy, 392 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: and then it and then it gets like and then 393 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: it's it's like if you're not in counseling, you feel 394 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: less normal, you know, you have like there's these gradations 395 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: of ease that I think are really problematic for us. 396 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,959 Speaker 1: And that's where I would say, you know, the the 397 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: connection between some of these other addictions as becomes like 398 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: it's just easier to go and take a pill as 399 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: opposed to actually work on myself. It's easier to you know, 400 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: go find pornography on the internet and had to go 401 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: find a sexual relationship, right, right. And I think that 402 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: as we sort of move into the next generation, these 403 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: are things we probably have to be concerned with. Yeah, 404 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's life has It's not that life has 405 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: become easier, it's that access to some of these things 406 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: that are really important has become easier. I mean it 407 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: was just sorry, some innocuous, like well quasi innocuous. The 408 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: legalization of marijuana. 409 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah easier. 410 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: Right. It used to be you could get in trouble 411 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: for owning, you know, for having marijuana. Now you can 412 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: walk in almost like there's like six stores on my 413 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: way to the grocery store, right your stop and get something, 414 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, so anyway, go ahead, Sorry, No, you. 415 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 2: Got to be thinking about that. That phrasing that I 416 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 2: really like that you're using the ease of utilizing steroids 417 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: so you can forego working out the ease of pornography 418 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: so you don't have to, so you can forego real 419 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 2: intimacy and the work that that takes. Again, fully recognizing 420 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 2: we're not saying therapy is on par with those vices, 421 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: but there is an ease of therapy that makes the 422 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: harder but good work of rebuilding community a lot harder, right, 423 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: And I want to applaud where we can applaud that 424 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 2: there has been a destigmatizing but I continue to appreciate 425 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 2: how you're phrasing it that way. The ease, yes, and 426 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: whether it is the actual therapy, whether it is digital 427 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 2: platforms that allow for that, which again I think started 428 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: for some really good areas, people in rural communities, those 429 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 2: who are disabled, those who don't have that have mobility issues. 430 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: There's good reasons that we develop these technologies in order 431 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: to meet marginalized communities. That's a good thing. Yeah, And 432 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: you know what, happens is that those who probably don't 433 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: need it want to use it, right, And then it's 434 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 2: that little Yeah, but it's easier for me just to 435 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: sit on my couch and get therapy. 436 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: It's easy, I know. 437 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: It is, But is it better? 438 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: Yeah? And I mean I think we're seeing that in 439 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: a whole host of places, and so maybe And I 440 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't call any of these addictions necessarily. I know we've 441 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: kind of we kind of circled through it through addiction. 442 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: But I think when you start to get into the 443 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: ease you mentioned in a previous episode, you know, it's 444 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: easier for me just to PLoP down my fee, come 445 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: and talk to Ben, and to go meet friends. Making 446 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: friends is hard, it's awkward, it's sometimes annoying. That's difficult, 447 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: but I know what I'm getting when I come to 448 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: my therapist, and I'm willing to pay for it, and 449 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: it's just easier for me, right, Like you, we get 450 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: in this groove of I'm just going to follow the 451 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: path of least resistance because it's there, and if somebody 452 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: can't follow the least resistance, we're kind of like, well, 453 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: what's the matter with you? 454 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, exactly. And in ways that then, because I 455 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: realize again, since I don't drift towards holiness, I do 456 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 2: drift towards ease. To put it in your phrasing, Yeah, 457 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 2: I'm not convinced that struggling towards holiness, if I can 458 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 2: kind of use that language, then is actually better. It 459 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: just seems like work, and it is work. I want 460 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 2: to fully affirm that it is harder in that sense. 461 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: It is, But but am I convinced that? This is 462 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 2: where I referenced Careker guard before? To me, he was helpful, 463 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: say are you willing to take, as it were, a 464 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,719 Speaker 2: leap of faith? And I don't think he was arguing 465 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: an irrationality to faith. I think he was arguing for 466 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 2: a willingness to believe in something that is beyond understanding 467 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 2: but is still better. Whereas the writer of Hebrew says, 468 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 2: faith is the assurance of things not seen. It's both 469 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: it's and it's an assurance. It's this heartfelt conviction. I 470 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 2: don't get it, but it's better. Am I willing then 471 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: to push into it? Like many of the heroes of 472 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: our faith did in generations past, they didn't always see 473 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 2: the promise that was to come, yet they endured with 474 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: great patience. I'm realizing how we need to build that. 475 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: I'm pleading as I love my works as a professor 476 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 2: in developing the next generation of therapists. We also have 477 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 2: a PhD program, so I'm developing the next generation of 478 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 2: professors who are developing the next generation of therapists. I 479 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 2: feel incredibly blessed to do both, and in some ways 480 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: kind of like a fraud because I'm also telling them, yes, 481 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 2: help all the people you can and make sure they 482 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 2: don't need you all the time. Like, I don't think 483 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 2: there's gonna be a lack of counseling. But if you're 484 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 2: continuing to see the same people over the same issues, 485 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 2: I wonder if we're not exacerbating the problem that's bringing 486 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 2: them in to begin with. 487 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's this idea in technology technological circles 488 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: about revenge effects. I don't you ever read it, but 489 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: there's a book out there. I can't remember who wrote it, 490 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: but he coined this idea of revenge effects. So every 491 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: technology has its revenge effect. Everything we create tends to 492 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: come back to biteas in some way. Oh wow, OK, right, 493 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: And so the way I tend to think about this, 494 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: it's like Yeah. I had a friend one time use 495 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: this analogy with me. It's like a babymobile. Any side 496 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: of that babymobile you touch it, other sides are going 497 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: to move and you're not going to be able to 498 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: predict exactly how they're going to move. Right. Every time 499 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: you touch it, you create a little bit of chaos, Right, 500 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: And I think that's the situation we're just in. Yeah, 501 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: I don't think it's something we have to work toward. 502 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: And I think even in working away from where we are, 503 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: we're going to be find ourselves in another situation of chaos. 504 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: This side, and it affects this thing over here. 505 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: And so I think that we sort of have to 506 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: give ourselves a little bit of a break in recognizing that, hey, 507 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: if this is what needs to be done in the moment, 508 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: let's do it in the moment. Where I think we 509 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: may give ourselves a little too much of a break. 510 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: Isn't saying I'm only going to do this in the moment, 511 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to ignore everything else. And so there has 512 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: to be this sort of realization that the solutions we're 513 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: putting into effect or will actually probably solve a very 514 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: particular problem. But there's a big, bad world out there, 515 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: and we've got to figure out how then to solve 516 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: the rest of these problems. How do we incentivize certain things, 517 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: decentivize certain things, How do we form people who are 518 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: going to have the sort of instincts that will lead 519 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: them away from the perils of easiness and toward a 520 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: more of a formative struggle, right, Like, those are the 521 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: big questions that we're always going to have to ask 522 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: and answer it as human beings. Yeah, and so I 523 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: think as we as we kind of talk like numbness, 524 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: like whatever we're using to numb ourselves is really just 525 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: an escape from the pain. Maybe it's legitimate pain, like 526 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: some sort of trauma of some sort of you know, 527 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: like you know, I blew out a disc in my 528 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: back when I was in my twenties. Still hurts, right, 529 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: So sometimes you want to take something to numb that pain. Right. 530 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: I think there's legitimate times when numbing is appropriate. 531 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: Right. 532 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: But if all we're doing is numbing and numbing and 533 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: numbing and numbing and numbing, now what are we doing. Well, 534 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: we're ignoring the formative aspects of our lives and we're 535 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: just focused on getting through without hurting. 536 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and what if the pain that we're trying 537 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: to numb is actually intended to bring you to something 538 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: bigger and better. Can we just keep on? Philip Brief, 539 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: he's a sociologist, talks about how, yeah, the religious man 540 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 2: was as you say, the religious man was born to 541 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: be saved, the psychological man was born to be pleased. Yes, 542 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: this is the concern that I have with a therapeutic community. 543 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: We can help here, but we miss some of the 544 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 2: realities that because we are we're not either religious or psychological, 545 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: we're both. So we we think that if I just 546 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: deal with the psychological everything will be fine. But we're 547 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: not because there's still this other reality, this this disconnection 548 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: that the pain is trying to wake us up. Right. 549 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 2: Lewis talks about pain being God's megaphone to rouse a 550 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: deaf world. What if we're doing more disservice by not 551 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 2: allowing that pain to have its recourse, to have its 552 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 2: day in court as it were, to be able to 553 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 2: move us towards something better, towards the the the needs 554 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: that are not just religious or psychological, but are both. Yea, 555 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: and I think that then helps us engage in a 556 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: much more holistic sense what we're trying to do with 557 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: humans what we're trying to do with society and has 558 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 2: has the ship sailed? Perhaps, and it's not going to 559 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: turn on a dive. And this is the Titanic, right, 560 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 2: just because we see that the iceberg doesn't mean we're 561 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 2: we're probably still gonna hit it. And we're seeing the 562 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 2: effects of that today in all kinds of horrific ways. 563 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: And yet this is I still think the joy of 564 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: what we as Christians have part of why I love 565 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: coming on your podcast, James, because the ability to think creatively, 566 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: how can we consider the iceberg but still be part 567 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 2: of the process of moving still still be part of 568 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: the restoration, the recreation of what was lost at the fall, 569 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: what was fought for at the cross by our Lord, 570 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 2: and what we now get to enter into as is 571 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 2: image makers that we are giving meaning to something more. 572 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think the interesting part about that analogy 573 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: you're using, right, You're on the Titanic, You're in the front, 574 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: and you're sitting there going, yeah, we're gonna hit that iceberg. 575 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: It's like there's no way to turn it, like you know, 576 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: and so where our minds need to start going is 577 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: not how do we avoid the iceberg. Right, it's what 578 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: do we do after we hit it? 579 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: Right? Right? 580 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: And and that's sort of what I'm I think it 581 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: requires an alertness to have that sort of mentality, Yeah, 582 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: and not give up. That requires grit, which we've talked 583 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: about across this series. Numbness fights against all of that. Yeah, right, 584 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: Numbness is the guy who's you know, sitting there going, well, 585 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: we're hitting the iceberg. I guess I'm dead. 586 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: Let's just sit back and watch the show. 587 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see what happens. You know, who knows what 588 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: it'll be like to die in freezing water? I guess 589 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: we'll find out whatever like there. But that's what I think. 590 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: Numbness sort of breeds. It's not going to breed solutions, 591 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: and it's not going to breed faithful activity. It's just 592 00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: going to breed numbness. 593 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 594 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: And that's a scary thought to me, is that, you know, 595 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: the younger generation gets frozen in this place where they 596 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: can't even muster the energy to face the problems. You know, 597 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: I think a lot of times when people ask me 598 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: about shut ole in the Old Testament? Right, what is 599 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: shut Oh? And I'm like, here's the way I conceive 600 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: of it, right, it's the underworld and the Old Testament. 601 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: I'm like, I think of it like the beach vacations 602 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: I used to take with my wife. Right, I'm pretty 603 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: energetic guy. I like to be out hiking or doing whatever, 604 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: and so we go on the beach and she just 605 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: likes to lay in suntan. That's just her vibe, right, 606 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: She'll read a book all week. That was the worst 607 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: possible vacation for me. I'm like, I just feel like 608 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: a lump of sludge that has been laying here forever. 609 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: And I'm like, you just get in this funk, in 610 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: this malaise where it's just like like can it be 611 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 1: over yet? Home yet? Can I go back to work now? 612 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: And I'm like that was show O in the Old Testament. 613 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: It's this sort of malaise that comes over us where 614 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: we're just almost tortured by the non event that is 615 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: the afterlife. And when I think of numbing, that's what 616 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: I think about. It's like everybody's trying to get to 617 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: the non event. Oh wow, and you just sit back 618 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: and you're like, well, no, this is where some drugs 619 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: could help, right, And I'm not talking about like psychedelics 620 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: or something like that. But like this is where we 621 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: need to sort of plug in and actually you know, say, 622 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, like maybe you need some vitamin D man, 623 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: Like you know, like there are these things where we 624 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: we could actually benefit. Maybe you do need some therapy, 625 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: maybe you do need this, maybe you do need that. 626 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I think the 627 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 1: trajectory of all of this, and this is where i'd 628 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: kind of encourage you is like everything you've talked about 629 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: across the across the series has been when a client 630 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: comes in, what you really want them to do is 631 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: you want them to go out and have agency something. 632 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: Don't just keep coming to me. I'm going to keep 633 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: pushing you away from me, Right, That's the agency that 634 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: I think we need. We need to stay away from 635 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: the numbing and push people whack out, not into the 636 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: pain necessarily, but certainly into the struggle. Yeah. 637 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 2: Because yeah, we're not favoring masochistic responses here, that that's 638 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 2: not the intent here. But in fact, what I think 639 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 2: is Victor Frankel talked about this in man Search for Meaning, 640 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: when when people have no meaning that they distract themselves 641 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 2: with pleasure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And if anyone I mean 642 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 2: as a survivor of the Holocaust. This is literally what 643 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 2: he saw in the camps was if there was a 644 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 2: person in that context that had no meaning, they would 645 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 2: die before the gas chamber and would welcome the gas 646 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 2: chamber if they didn't. But if a person had meaning, 647 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: they could actually go to the gas chamber with still 648 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: a sense of joy, and that much more survive after 649 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 2: it if they never had to endure that that meaning. 650 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 2: Now again in froncles constructing, I don't think he was 651 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 2: necessarily thinking about a theological response to the Gospel. But 652 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 2: I think you and I understand, and our listeners that 653 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 2: have that understand how much more when we're able to 654 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 2: push individuals to the greatest meaning that then not uses 655 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: pleasure as a distraction, but actually puts it in its 656 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 2: right order, right, It puts it in a construct that says, 657 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 2: now God made pleasure to be part of this experience, 658 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: because I can find the giver of the pleasure, not 659 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,760 Speaker 2: just the pleasure itself. That to me is I'm constantly 660 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: telling my students I want you to have a good 661 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 2: work and a good practice, and ethically, I think you 662 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 2: need to work yourself out of a job. I don't 663 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 2: think actuality that will happen. But I think we do 664 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 2: a disservice to our clients when we're not helping them 665 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 2: develop more sense of autonomy an agency in the ways 666 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 2: that actually not just helps them, but actually helps society 667 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 2: and has a healing effect on the nations. 668 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: Agreed. 669 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 2: The thing that I think that we're all moving towards 670 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,479 Speaker 2: come the Lord's return as well. 671 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think it will always be there. I 672 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: don't think they're going to have any trouble not working 673 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: themselves out the job, but I agree with you that 674 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: they should try. Yeah, that is the you know, you've 675 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: talked about the tension Chesterton's tension, right, that is, that's 676 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: what it is. You should be working yourself out of 677 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,280 Speaker 1: a job, but you never actually will. 678 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 2: So sore both. Just embrace both, Just embrace towards both. 679 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 2: Do the best you can with the clients in front 680 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 2: of you, and do the best you can to make 681 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 2: sure they don't have to stay in front of you. 682 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that we could say the same 683 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: thing for the people who are seeking it out. You know, 684 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: maybe you know, maybe the right diagnosis is, hey, don't 685 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: don't just jump into therapy, right, maybe not make it 686 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: your first option, but if you need it, it's fine. 687 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: Just know you're working your way. 688 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 2: Out of it right right structures in place that help 689 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 2: you give some guidelines to it exactly. 690 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, man, this has been awesome, great episode, great series. 691 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: Really appreciate you being on. 692 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 2: Has been good conversations hopefully. 693 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: Folks. This is the last episode of the series. If 694 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: you missed the previous ones, go back and listen to them. 695 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: They're absolutely worth worth a listen. And thanks for sticking 696 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: with us as far and we will catch you on 697 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take Care. I just 698 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,359 Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at 699 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking 700 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll 701 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 702 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.