1 00:00:02,730 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Dr. 2 00:00:04,980 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 2: McGrath, thanks for joining me. 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,100 Speaker 1: It's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you for 4 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: having me. 5 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: Alistair McGrath, theologian, historian, apologist, author of the new book, 6 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:17,810 Speaker 2: Rethinking Christianity, A Thoughtful Guide to a Life-Changing Faith. Thomas 7 00:00:17,829 --> 00:00:20,770 Speaker 2: Nelson is the publisher. I really enjoyed reading this. You 8 00:00:20,829 --> 00:00:24,270 Speaker 2: open the book, Dr. McGrath, by saying, why won't Christianity 9 00:00:24,829 --> 00:00:28,889 Speaker 2: stay buried? You say many younger people are reconsidering Christianity. 10 00:00:29,820 --> 00:00:32,750 Speaker 2: What are you seeing that convinces you that something has 11 00:00:32,830 --> 00:00:34,850 Speaker 2: genuinely shifted in the culture today? 12 00:00:34,870 --> 00:00:37,530 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, that's a really good question. I think 13 00:00:37,630 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: the first thing I've noticed is that, you know, I've 14 00:00:40,140 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: been talking to people for 20 years about this whole 15 00:00:43,020 --> 00:00:46,260 Speaker 1: question of faith, and I've noticed that the questions have 16 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,180 Speaker 1: changed over the last five, ten years. It used to be, look, 17 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,330 Speaker 1: how can an intelligent person be a Christian? Or some 18 00:00:53,340 --> 00:00:57,150 Speaker 1: kind of question that would reflect Richard Dawkins' critique of Christianity. 19 00:00:57,730 --> 00:01:00,870 Speaker 1: But more recently, the questions have changed. They're much more 20 00:01:01,820 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: Can you explain to me how Christianity changes people's lives? 21 00:01:05,020 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: Can you explain to me how I can find stability 22 00:01:08,540 --> 00:01:11,899 Speaker 1: and meaning and purpose in life? They're really looking for something, 23 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,590 Speaker 1: and they have this deep intuition that Christianity is saying something, 24 00:01:15,650 --> 00:01:18,509 Speaker 1: or it's got something about it that really has depth 25 00:01:18,670 --> 00:01:21,990 Speaker 1: and potential. So what I'm discovering is that younger people 26 00:01:22,110 --> 00:01:27,100 Speaker 1: are looking for something. They're disillusioned with secularism. They're looking 27 00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:32,259 Speaker 1: for something that really has stability, depth, and vitality. And 28 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: what they're saying is, look, Christianity has been around for 29 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: 2,000 years. It must have something going for it. So 30 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,220 Speaker 1: explain to us what it is. So I'm seeing a 31 00:01:40,340 --> 00:01:44,250 Speaker 1: significant change. People are really interested. And our job, I think, 32 00:01:44,290 --> 00:01:47,730 Speaker 1: is really to explain to them why Christianity is such 33 00:01:47,770 --> 00:01:49,030 Speaker 1: a life-changing faith. 34 00:01:49,650 --> 00:01:52,090 Speaker 2: Essentially, you're saying that the secular culture has failed to 35 00:01:52,130 --> 00:01:54,910 Speaker 2: give them what only Christ can give them. 36 00:01:55,650 --> 00:02:00,130 Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think people are really feeling disillusioned, disappointed. And 37 00:02:00,170 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: I think that they're saying, well, look, either there is 38 00:02:02,980 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: no meaning and no purpose, so we're really messed up, 39 00:02:06,140 --> 00:02:08,620 Speaker 1: or Christianity can help us and we need someone to 40 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: explain to us how this happens. And that's what I 41 00:02:11,460 --> 00:02:14,530 Speaker 1: think we really need to give more thought to, because 42 00:02:14,540 --> 00:02:17,250 Speaker 1: I think many Christians are very, very good at saying, 43 00:02:17,550 --> 00:02:20,410 Speaker 1: I can give you 23 very good reasons for saying 44 00:02:20,450 --> 00:02:24,070 Speaker 1: God exists. But actually, the question they're asking isn't sort 45 00:02:24,090 --> 00:02:27,130 Speaker 1: of rational. It's not intellectual. It's much more, I want 46 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:29,989 Speaker 1: you to show me how Christianity can help give me depth, 47 00:02:30,070 --> 00:02:33,049 Speaker 1: can change my lives, can bring meaning to me? And 48 00:02:33,070 --> 00:02:35,769 Speaker 1: that's the kind of question which is more about witness 49 00:02:35,810 --> 00:02:38,690 Speaker 1: than argument. I think that we need to rethink how 50 00:02:38,750 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: we talk about Christianity and really be able to connect 51 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: with these people who are looking for some very significant 52 00:02:46,540 --> 00:02:50,020 Speaker 1: life changes and think Christianity might be able to help them. 53 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: You say rethink how we talk about Christianity. Give us 54 00:02:52,750 --> 00:02:55,209 Speaker 2: an example of what you mean by that, because you're 55 00:02:55,230 --> 00:02:57,490 Speaker 2: not saying change the message, you're saying change how it's, 56 00:02:58,169 --> 00:02:59,149 Speaker 2: I guess, communicated. 57 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,900 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not saying change the message. When I say 58 00:03:01,940 --> 00:03:05,170 Speaker 1: rethinking Christianity, we keep the message the same. It's true. 59 00:03:05,510 --> 00:03:08,730 Speaker 1: It's trustworthy. But we have to explain to people the 60 00:03:08,770 --> 00:03:10,690 Speaker 1: difference it's going to make. Let me tell you a story. 61 00:03:10,710 --> 00:03:13,630 Speaker 1: This is a true story. When I used to argue 62 00:03:13,650 --> 00:03:16,149 Speaker 1: with new atheists, very often I'd be showing them that 63 00:03:16,169 --> 00:03:20,370 Speaker 1: Christianity is true, that it makes intellectual sense. And then 64 00:03:20,410 --> 00:03:24,010 Speaker 1: someone said to me, Alistair, you're not connecting with people properly. 65 00:03:25,090 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: The deeper question is, Can you explain to them the 66 00:03:28,340 --> 00:03:30,590 Speaker 1: difference that Christianity makes? So what I would do in 67 00:03:30,650 --> 00:03:34,310 Speaker 1: future arguing with new atheists is to say, A, Christianity 68 00:03:34,630 --> 00:03:38,550 Speaker 1: does make complete intellectual sense, and B, let me tell 69 00:03:38,590 --> 00:03:41,830 Speaker 1: you the difference it makes to people's lives. And people 70 00:03:41,930 --> 00:03:45,250 Speaker 1: told me that was the thing that really helped them. 71 00:03:45,530 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: They're prepared to accept Christianity makes sense, but they wanted 72 00:03:48,980 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: to know how it connected with their real lives. If 73 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,180 Speaker 1: that's right, then our job is to first of all, 74 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: show Christianity does make some sort of sense, but then 75 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,780 Speaker 1: to witness to the difference that it makes to our lives, 76 00:04:03,180 --> 00:04:05,470 Speaker 1: knowing that that is going to connect to these people 77 00:04:05,730 --> 00:04:09,050 Speaker 1: who really are looking for something that is deeply satisfying 78 00:04:09,350 --> 00:04:13,970 Speaker 1: because they've been so badly disillusioned by secular culture. You 79 00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:16,830 Speaker 1: call Christianity a map for the soul. That's how you 80 00:04:16,990 --> 00:04:19,070 Speaker 1: describe the faith. What do you mean by that? 81 00:04:19,130 --> 00:04:23,180 Speaker 2: And how does Christianity help people make sense of their lives? 82 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: Because I think that's the whole book's purpose right there. 83 00:04:25,850 --> 00:04:27,450 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. I think 84 00:04:27,490 --> 00:04:30,310 Speaker 1: the idea of a map is really helpful, because a 85 00:04:30,350 --> 00:04:32,490 Speaker 1: map is what you use when you want to find 86 00:04:32,670 --> 00:04:36,070 Speaker 1: your way home. You know, you're looking around this complicated 87 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,180 Speaker 1: landscape that we call life, and we're saying, look, what's 88 00:04:39,220 --> 00:04:41,380 Speaker 1: all this I see? And how do I find my 89 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,339 Speaker 1: way home? And a map will say, look, there's this 90 00:04:43,380 --> 00:04:45,100 Speaker 1: and there's this and there's this, and the place you 91 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,740 Speaker 1: want to get to is there. So if you go 92 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: this way, you'll end up there. And what Christianity is 93 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: doing is, in effect, giving us this wonderful vision of 94 00:04:54,100 --> 00:04:56,290 Speaker 1: the nature of life, It's saying to us, look, there 95 00:04:56,310 --> 00:04:58,930 Speaker 1: are things you need to watch out for, sin, despair, 96 00:04:58,950 --> 00:05:01,750 Speaker 1: and things like that, and also things that really could 97 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: help you, grace and things like that. But really what 98 00:05:05,260 --> 00:05:08,100 Speaker 1: Christianity is saying is two things very, very clear. Number one, 99 00:05:08,420 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: there is a way home. That's very, very important. And secondly, 100 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:15,770 Speaker 1: we don't walk this on our own. Christ is the 101 00:05:15,790 --> 00:05:18,330 Speaker 1: good shepherd who's going to accompany us on the way. 102 00:05:18,730 --> 00:05:22,349 Speaker 1: So the map, if you like, reassures us that there 103 00:05:22,450 --> 00:05:24,350 Speaker 1: is a place called home and we can get there. 104 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: But Christ is the one who journeys with us as 105 00:05:27,580 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: we follow that map and helps us to find our 106 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,540 Speaker 1: way home, answers our questions, and helps us to deal 107 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,580 Speaker 1: with the challenges we're going to face as we journey 108 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: on our way home. Do you think the pandemic changed 109 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: how people view this issue? Let me ask it a 110 00:05:43,140 --> 00:05:43,500 Speaker 1: different way. 111 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,750 Speaker 2: Do you think the pandemic played a role in the 112 00:05:46,790 --> 00:05:49,490 Speaker 2: renewed interest in Christianity and religion? 113 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,980 Speaker 1: I really like that question, and I think it did. 114 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,030 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I think was going on. I 115 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,490 Speaker 1: think an awful lot of people who I knew who 116 00:05:57,650 --> 00:06:00,750 Speaker 1: were complete secularists and saying, I can cope with life, 117 00:06:01,089 --> 00:06:05,650 Speaker 1: I don't need God, suddenly found themselves confronted with human mortality. 118 00:06:05,670 --> 00:06:08,230 Speaker 1: In other words, their friends were becoming ill, some of 119 00:06:08,250 --> 00:06:11,570 Speaker 1: them were dying. And they were saying, well, actually, I 120 00:06:12,010 --> 00:06:14,460 Speaker 1: thought I could cope with this, but actually I can't. 121 00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:17,580 Speaker 1: I haven't got a reason to live. I can't face 122 00:06:17,660 --> 00:06:21,029 Speaker 1: death with confidence. I think that really was a wake-up 123 00:06:21,110 --> 00:06:23,210 Speaker 1: call for a lot of people to do some deep 124 00:06:23,330 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: thinking about life's biggest questions. I think you're right. The 125 00:06:27,630 --> 00:06:32,020 Speaker 1: pandemic really made people begin to become much more interested 126 00:06:32,060 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: in what we might call deep questions. Why are we here? 127 00:06:35,580 --> 00:06:37,860 Speaker 1: What's the whole point of life? How do we find 128 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: our way home to heaven? That sort of thing. I 129 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: think it's become much easier to talk about these questions 130 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,300 Speaker 1: post-COVID because people are much more receptive to them. They 131 00:06:47,420 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: are they are aware that mortality is a real issue. 132 00:06:51,460 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: And very often they feel, we don't have good answers 133 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,740 Speaker 1: to this. We need to think about this. And Christianity 134 00:06:56,779 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: has some very good answers. And happily, you and I 135 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: can begin to talk to people about those answers. 136 00:07:02,700 --> 00:07:04,510 Speaker 2: I think one thing it did, Dr. McGrath, is it 137 00:07:04,550 --> 00:07:07,970 Speaker 2: forced us to sit at home without any distractions in 138 00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:14,110 Speaker 2: our life. We, you know, many people watch sports for distraction, watch, well, 139 00:07:14,130 --> 00:07:15,810 Speaker 2: they can still watch movies, but so many of the 140 00:07:15,930 --> 00:07:19,810 Speaker 2: things that we Tied our lives to work was the 141 00:07:19,830 --> 00:07:22,180 Speaker 2: biggest one, I guess. We can no longer do during 142 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: those few days or weeks or months, wherever you lived. 143 00:07:24,340 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: And so all of a sudden, you had to think 144 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: about the point of life. And all of a sudden, 145 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,620 Speaker 2: you really had to ponder what is the meaning of life. 146 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, 147 00:07:34,460 --> 00:07:37,090 Speaker 2: but I think that's one of the reasons that we 148 00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:37,770 Speaker 2: might be seeing this. 149 00:07:37,830 --> 00:07:41,630 Speaker 1: It's just a theory. No, it's a good point. Because 150 00:07:41,950 --> 00:07:43,990 Speaker 1: if we say that people are beginning to become aware 151 00:07:44,010 --> 00:07:48,220 Speaker 1: of mortality and They are isolated. They haven't got access 152 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: to easy resources. They are going to begin to ponder 153 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: these questions and think about them. So the fact that 154 00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:56,490 Speaker 1: they're on their own thinking about these questions actually in 155 00:07:56,530 --> 00:07:59,310 Speaker 1: one sense is quite good because it means that when 156 00:07:59,350 --> 00:08:01,490 Speaker 1: they can, they're going to start looking for answers. Because 157 00:08:01,590 --> 00:08:05,190 Speaker 1: once the pandemic disappeared, actually people were still thinking about 158 00:08:05,290 --> 00:08:07,950 Speaker 1: these deep questions. And certainly one of the things I've 159 00:08:08,010 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: noticed in talking about Christianity recently, especially younger people, is 160 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,580 Speaker 1: they really feel that if they're going to flourish in life, 161 00:08:16,220 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: They need a viable worldview, a sort of way of 162 00:08:19,660 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: looking at the world that is not going to fall 163 00:08:21,940 --> 00:08:24,300 Speaker 1: to pieces in five or ten years, but it's going 164 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,340 Speaker 1: to stay with them for the rest of their lives. 165 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: So they're looking for something that's stable and secure. And 166 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: I often think of Christ's wonderful parable of the house 167 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,740 Speaker 1: built on the rock in Matthew chapter 7, you know, 168 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,290 Speaker 1: because Christ is saying, look, you need to find a stable, 169 00:08:40,450 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: safe place to build your life on. And it's not 170 00:08:43,900 --> 00:08:46,100 Speaker 1: going to be in the place where the winds blow 171 00:08:46,140 --> 00:08:48,939 Speaker 1: and where everything's unstable. You need to build your house 172 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:51,780 Speaker 1: on the rock of the gospel. I think that's a 173 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: message we need to get people out, that Christianity says 174 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: some wonderful things, but it also offers us a secure 175 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,220 Speaker 1: base on which we can build our lives and live 176 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,590 Speaker 1: confidently in this new faith. Amen to that. 177 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:08,109 Speaker 2: Do you have a go-to argument for the existence of 178 00:09:08,150 --> 00:09:10,670 Speaker 2: God when you're sitting beside somebody on an airplane or 179 00:09:11,690 --> 00:09:14,540 Speaker 2: at a restaurant? Do you have an argument that you 180 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 2: go to? 181 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:26,890 Speaker 1: The answer is, it does come up. It's not the 182 00:09:26,929 --> 00:09:29,510 Speaker 1: first thing people talk about, but very often they will 183 00:09:29,630 --> 00:09:31,410 Speaker 1: raise that kind of question. And sometimes they'll do it 184 00:09:31,429 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: in a rather aggressive way. Hey, how on earth can 185 00:09:35,059 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: you answer this question about God's existence? Sometimes it's much 186 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:41,660 Speaker 1: more gentle and exploratory. Can you help me think this through? 187 00:09:42,290 --> 00:09:43,870 Speaker 1: And what I will say is, look, I can't prove 188 00:09:43,910 --> 00:09:45,660 Speaker 1: God exists. What I can do is give you some 189 00:09:45,820 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: very good reasons for thinking God exists. And the final 190 00:09:49,420 --> 00:09:53,300 Speaker 1: stage of this process is reaching out and saying, God, 191 00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:55,670 Speaker 1: if you are there, and I think you might be, 192 00:09:56,150 --> 00:10:00,900 Speaker 1: please reveal yourself. Please speak to me. Please do something 193 00:10:01,220 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: that helps me take that final step. And I think 194 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: really people are these days much more inclined to take 195 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:10,950 Speaker 1: the idea of God seriously. The critical thing is to 196 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,490 Speaker 1: help them understand the difference that believing in God is 197 00:10:14,510 --> 00:10:16,969 Speaker 1: going to make to their lives and how it gives 198 00:10:16,990 --> 00:10:19,929 Speaker 1: them a fresh sense of identity and purpose and And really, 199 00:10:19,950 --> 00:10:21,870 Speaker 1: it's going to be something that changes their lives for 200 00:10:21,890 --> 00:10:24,590 Speaker 1: the better. And we can do that because that's what 201 00:10:24,670 --> 00:10:25,770 Speaker 1: witnessing is all about. 202 00:10:26,950 --> 00:10:30,230 Speaker 2: Some people see Christianity as outdated, as irrelevant. How do 203 00:10:30,250 --> 00:10:31,469 Speaker 2: you respond to that argument? 204 00:10:32,370 --> 00:10:35,250 Speaker 1: Well, I think people are very, very concerned about things 205 00:10:35,290 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: being outdated and irrelevant. And we live in an age 206 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: of very rapid cultural change. All people are finding is 207 00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: the things that they thought were absolutely stable and secure 208 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: five years ago have gone. That's the rapid change of pace. 209 00:10:48,650 --> 00:10:52,150 Speaker 1: My argument is that the fact that Christianity is 2,000 210 00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:55,590 Speaker 1: years old is not an argument for its irrelevance. It's 211 00:10:55,630 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: an argument for its continuing relevance over 2,000 years of history. 212 00:11:00,620 --> 00:11:02,900 Speaker 1: And therefore, when I'm talking to people, I'm saying, look, 213 00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:06,900 Speaker 1: you're presenting me with a rival worldview, which is about 214 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:08,820 Speaker 1: 20 years old. Is that still going to be here 215 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: in 50 years' time? 216 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: No. 217 00:11:10,620 --> 00:11:15,510 Speaker 1: Christianity has this historical depth. It's deeply rooted in history 218 00:11:15,530 --> 00:11:19,140 Speaker 1: and And that means it's there because it continues to 219 00:11:19,179 --> 00:11:22,219 Speaker 1: be relevant. You say it's irrelevant. That's because you have 220 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,500 Speaker 1: not yet discovered its relevance. Let me help you try 221 00:11:25,540 --> 00:11:27,979 Speaker 1: and discover that because I think that will change your 222 00:11:28,059 --> 00:11:28,780 Speaker 1: view of things. 223 00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: Is that what you mean when you say, why won't 224 00:11:30,830 --> 00:11:33,310 Speaker 2: Christianity stay buried? Is that what you mean when you 225 00:11:33,330 --> 00:11:34,030 Speaker 2: pose that question? 226 00:11:34,309 --> 00:11:37,690 Speaker 1: That's right. Basically, that there is something about Christianity which 227 00:11:37,730 --> 00:11:41,630 Speaker 1: people need to appreciate and And once they appreciate it, say, 228 00:11:41,770 --> 00:11:44,209 Speaker 1: I can see why it's still there. I can see 229 00:11:44,270 --> 00:11:47,350 Speaker 1: why it actually might speak to me. And you're ready 230 00:11:47,370 --> 00:11:49,470 Speaker 1: to take them on the next stage of their journey 231 00:11:49,850 --> 00:11:52,830 Speaker 1: as they begin to explore how this living faith might 232 00:11:52,890 --> 00:11:54,310 Speaker 1: transform their lives. 233 00:11:54,809 --> 00:11:56,550 Speaker 2: There's been a lot of debate in the United Kingdom 234 00:11:56,590 --> 00:12:00,790 Speaker 2: where you live about whether that nation is truly experiencing 235 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: a quiet revival. There was some debate and controversy over 236 00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: some data in the past year. What have you seen? 237 00:12:06,020 --> 00:12:08,020 Speaker 2: What do you think about this issue? Is something going 238 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:08,620 Speaker 2: on in the U.K. 239 00:12:09,850 --> 00:12:12,410 Speaker 1: Something is going on, but it's not what I'd call 240 00:12:12,530 --> 00:12:16,110 Speaker 1: a revival yet. What I'm seeing is not so much 241 00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: a massive increase in attendance at church. What I'm seeing 242 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,300 Speaker 1: are two things. One is much greater interest in talking 243 00:12:23,340 --> 00:12:27,620 Speaker 1: about Christianity, much less hostility towards Christianity. If you like, 244 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: there's an increased receptivity, and people are very often coming 245 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,230 Speaker 1: to church because they feel this might speak to them. 246 00:12:35,890 --> 00:12:38,429 Speaker 1: And here in Britain during COVID, we had a very 247 00:12:38,490 --> 00:12:43,829 Speaker 1: interesting rise in online attendance at church. People couldn't go physically, 248 00:12:43,870 --> 00:12:46,510 Speaker 1: so they'd watch online. A lot of people are still 249 00:12:46,570 --> 00:12:50,150 Speaker 1: doing that because they don't actually feel safe yet about 250 00:12:50,250 --> 00:12:54,370 Speaker 1: going to church, but they're listening to sermons, they're thinking 251 00:12:54,410 --> 00:12:56,610 Speaker 1: about things, and at some point they're going to feel 252 00:12:56,730 --> 00:12:59,410 Speaker 1: ready to begin to go to church. So I think 253 00:12:59,429 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: there is something going on. There's a lessening hostility, there's 254 00:13:04,530 --> 00:13:07,650 Speaker 1: growing interest, And I think that those of us who 255 00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:10,650 Speaker 1: are Christian believers need to be aware this is happening 256 00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:13,150 Speaker 1: and work out whether we might be able to help 257 00:13:13,230 --> 00:13:16,420 Speaker 1: people who are in this kind of situation to go 258 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: deeper into the faith and also perhaps take them to 259 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,239 Speaker 1: church and see if they might find that helpful in 260 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: their own journey of faith. 261 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: You've spent much of your career, Dr. McGrath, challenging the 262 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,650 Speaker 2: idea that science and Christianity are enemies. Why do you 263 00:13:30,690 --> 00:13:34,310 Speaker 2: believe they're not only compatible, but they also complement one another? 264 00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:38,089 Speaker 1: That's a good question. When I was a teenager, a scientist, 265 00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:42,750 Speaker 1: I had this idea that science and Christianity were enemies. 266 00:13:42,770 --> 00:13:45,910 Speaker 1: You couldn't be a scientist and a Christian. So one 267 00:13:45,929 --> 00:13:48,140 Speaker 1: of the reasons I became an atheist as a teenager 268 00:13:48,179 --> 00:13:51,980 Speaker 1: was this deep belief, which was very widespread in Western 269 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,940 Speaker 1: culture at that time, that science and religion couldn't talk 270 00:13:54,980 --> 00:13:58,420 Speaker 1: to each other. They were opposed to each other. Of course, 271 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,500 Speaker 1: I was a scientist. I went to Oxford University to 272 00:14:00,580 --> 00:14:03,969 Speaker 1: study the biomedical sciences and I began to realize it 273 00:14:04,010 --> 00:14:07,670 Speaker 1: was not that simple. Someone like Albert Einstein, for example, 274 00:14:07,710 --> 00:14:10,430 Speaker 1: who I studied in depth when I was doing chemistry, 275 00:14:11,230 --> 00:14:14,700 Speaker 1: was very, very clear that science tells us how our 276 00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:19,060 Speaker 1: universe functions. It does not teach us anything about moral values, 277 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,140 Speaker 1: and it has nothing to say to us about meaning. 278 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: Einstein simply says, if you're looking for moral value, meaning, 279 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,700 Speaker 1: or significance, you have to look beyond science. So what 280 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,300 Speaker 1: I would say is Christianity does not go against science. 281 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,500 Speaker 1: It goes beyond science. It's able to answer those really 282 00:14:35,620 --> 00:14:39,390 Speaker 1: deep questions that science is aware of but can't answer 283 00:14:39,770 --> 00:14:43,430 Speaker 1: using its own resources. We were talking about COVID a 284 00:14:43,450 --> 00:14:45,690 Speaker 1: moment ago, weren't we? And, you know, during COVID, I 285 00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: used a thermometer to take my temperature all the time because, 286 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,060 Speaker 1: you know, that might indicate whether I've got COVID or not. 287 00:14:51,540 --> 00:14:53,780 Speaker 1: But supposing I were to say something like this, you know, 288 00:14:54,220 --> 00:14:58,850 Speaker 1: That thermometer works so well. I'll use that for everything. Like, 289 00:14:58,870 --> 00:15:02,010 Speaker 1: for example, what's the meaning of life or things like that. 290 00:15:02,030 --> 00:15:05,610 Speaker 1: I mean, a tool is developed for a purpose. And 291 00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:07,570 Speaker 1: when you start using a tool for something it wasn't 292 00:15:07,610 --> 00:15:12,060 Speaker 1: designed for, it gives you completely nonsensical results. Science is 293 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,660 Speaker 1: designed to tell us how our universe functions. We need 294 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:20,020 Speaker 1: a different toolkit to answer deep questions of meaning and value, 295 00:15:20,610 --> 00:15:25,250 Speaker 1: And Christianity is excellent at giving very robust and persuasive 296 00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:29,460 Speaker 1: answers to those deep questions of significance and meaning. So 297 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: for me, science and religion are like two lenses in 298 00:15:33,020 --> 00:15:38,250 Speaker 1: a set of spectacles. They let you see stereoscopically. They 299 00:15:38,260 --> 00:15:40,330 Speaker 1: give you depth to the way you look at the world. 300 00:15:40,770 --> 00:15:43,250 Speaker 1: So for me, there isn't a tension. There's a difference. 301 00:15:43,410 --> 00:15:44,790 Speaker 1: And that's not the same thing. 302 00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:48,630 Speaker 2: As we kind of wrap up here, Dr. McGrath, let's 303 00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:52,810 Speaker 2: talk again about your book, Rethinking Christianity, A Thoughtful Guide 304 00:15:53,010 --> 00:15:54,670 Speaker 2: to a Life-Changing Faith. 305 00:15:54,950 --> 00:15:55,810 Speaker 1: Who is this for? 306 00:15:56,620 --> 00:15:59,060 Speaker 2: What's the target audience? Is it skeptics, Christians, both? 307 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: I think it really has two audiences. I think I'm 308 00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:07,140 Speaker 1: trying to reassure Christians, especially younger Christians, that there's been 309 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,500 Speaker 1: a massive cultural change and Christianity is back on the agenda. 310 00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:14,110 Speaker 1: And I want to reassure them that that the culture's changed, 311 00:16:14,130 --> 00:16:17,250 Speaker 1: but Christianity has not changed, and it really is something 312 00:16:17,550 --> 00:16:21,150 Speaker 1: they can immerse themselves in with confidence and be able 313 00:16:21,190 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: to answer the questions our culture's asking. So it's reassuring Christians. 314 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: But secondly, it's also a book that's written for people 315 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: who are thinking about Christianity and are wondering. 316 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: What is this stuff? 317 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,730 Speaker 1: Does it still make sense? And what might it say 318 00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:40,460 Speaker 1: to me? And so it's a very carefully written book. 319 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: It's very conversational. It's very warm. It's very empathic. I 320 00:16:44,860 --> 00:16:47,060 Speaker 1: understand the kind of issues they may be facing. But 321 00:16:47,540 --> 00:16:51,710 Speaker 1: it's basically saying to my readers who are thinking about Christianity, 322 00:16:52,020 --> 00:16:55,830 Speaker 1: there's something really deep and significant here. Let me just 323 00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:58,590 Speaker 1: walk you through it and see if you can pick 324 00:16:58,690 --> 00:17:02,070 Speaker 1: up what is so significant. And maybe that might help 325 00:17:02,130 --> 00:17:06,260 Speaker 1: you in thinking where you might go next. So Reassuring 326 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: Christians is and drawing those from outside the faith into 327 00:17:10,580 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: Christianity and helping them see the big difference they could 328 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,460 Speaker 1: make if and when they're ready to do so. 329 00:17:18,770 --> 00:17:21,090 Speaker 3: If you liked today's episode, please subscribe and leave a 330 00:17:21,130 --> 00:17:24,410 Speaker 3: five-star review. That's how we help more people just like 331 00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:27,290 Speaker 3: you find the show. A big thanks to the team 332 00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:30,389 Speaker 3: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast. 333 00:17:30,970 --> 00:17:33,790 Speaker 3: If you go to lifeaudio.com, you will find dozens of 334 00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:36,070 Speaker 3: other faith-centered podcasts in their network. 335 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:37,370 Speaker 2: See you next time.