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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Brian, thanks for joining me. Thanks Michael. Great to

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Speaker 2: be with you.

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Speaker 3: Brian Bird the producer of the new documentary film The

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Speaker 3: Story of Everything. A great film and examines the scientific

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Speaker 3: evidence for a creator and includes interviews with experts who

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Speaker 3: have studied this issue, many of them their whole lives.

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Speaker 3: Steven Meyer is one of the scientists in it. Other

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Speaker 3: people of interest. Lee Strubble is an executive producer. Brian,

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Speaker 3: You've worked on projects like The Case for Christ and

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Speaker 3: one calls The Heart.

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Speaker 2: What drew you to this unique.

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Speaker 3: Film that explores the intersection of science and faith.

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Speaker 2: What drew me to this?

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Speaker 1: You know, this is my second sticking my toe into

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Speaker 1: the water, second time doing that on a documentary with

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Speaker 1: this exact same team my colleague Jason Paymer in Jen's Jacobs.

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Speaker 2: Eric, you saw the director.

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Speaker 1: I worked on the movie The Heart of Man, which

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Speaker 1: you may have seen several years ago, which was our

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Speaker 1: documentary about the prodigal son, basically and interviewing a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of real prodigal sons and then sort of reenacting

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Speaker 1: the prodigal son's story in our own way. And we

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Speaker 1: got a lot of attention for that. And so when

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Speaker 1: we first got exposed to Steven Meyer's amazing book The

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Speaker 1: Return of the God Hypothesis, Jason Paymer and Eric and

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Speaker 1: Jens and I Know said to each other, our young

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Speaker 1: people across the world are being indoctrinated into scientific materialism,

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Speaker 1: and there's almost nothing we can do to stop it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my own kids have gone to several of

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Speaker 1: my kids have been to college and have gone to

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Speaker 1: secular schools. They've gone to Christian schools but also to

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Speaker 1: secular schools, and there's just no stopping the freight train

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Speaker 1: of scientific materialism. If you if your young people are

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Speaker 1: going to college, it just is infused in almost every

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Speaker 1: every class they take. It's sort of the underlying worldview

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Speaker 1: for almost every class they would take in a liberal

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Speaker 1: arts school. And when we read this book, it occurred

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Speaker 1: to us suddenly that there is that there is another

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Speaker 1: way to help young people not see the world through

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Speaker 1: such bleak, bleak eyes, because honestly, when you throw yourself

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Speaker 1: into scientific materialism, there is nothing but blind, pitiless indifference

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Speaker 1: in the universe. I mean, we're looking through sort into

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Speaker 1: the abyss, into Nietzsche's abyss, and the abyss is staring

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Speaker 1: back at us and there ain't nothing there, right, It

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Speaker 1: is just a void and we are all the product

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Speaker 1: of a cosmic roll of the dice. And how can

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Speaker 1: there be any meaning to our lives? How can there

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Speaker 1: be any meaning to the universe? How can there be

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Speaker 1: any purpose to our existence? When we are a cosmic accident?

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Speaker 1: And that's what our young people are being told. You know,

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Speaker 1: no wonder, there's so much hopelessness and so much sort

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Speaker 1: of just sort of this bleak view of everything. And

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Speaker 1: when we read the Return of a God hypothesis, we

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Speaker 1: realized that there is a giant knockout punch for that,

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Speaker 1: and it's science itself. It's not Christian propaganda that has

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Speaker 1: to do that. It's not dropping the Bible on top

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Speaker 1: of people's heads. If you just follow the actual science,

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Speaker 1: it all leads to design. And that's what the Return

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Speaker 1: of a God to hypothesis that book revealed to us.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make a case for christ, it doesn't make

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Speaker 1: a case for the Creator. It makes a case for

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Speaker 1: design in everything. And when there's design in everything, that

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Speaker 1: means it came from somewhere. And when I you know,

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Speaker 1: when I was exposed to it, I just said, guys,

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Speaker 1: this is there's a movie waiting to happen here. We

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Speaker 1: absolutely need to tell this story. And we all got together.

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Speaker 1: We went up and visited with Stephen Meyer up and

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Speaker 1: up in Seattle, and we said, let's put this together,

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Speaker 1: let's do this.

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Speaker 2: That was almost six years.

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Speaker 1: Ago that we started on this movie, and it has

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Speaker 1: taken us all this time to get it right. It's

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Speaker 1: a really tricky thing to do, you know, especially when

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Speaker 1: you're having to do it in the middle of COVID

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Speaker 1: and all of all of the challenges that we've faced

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Speaker 1: over the last several years. You know, you have to

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Speaker 1: find the money to make.

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Speaker 2: A movie like this.

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Speaker 1: It was it was pretty tricky to do, but we

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Speaker 1: didn't give up. We kept going, and this is the result,

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Speaker 1: the story of everything, and we're deeply proud of it

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Speaker 1: because the marks were getting from people who've seen it

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Speaker 1: or that it's not only a knockout punch for scientific serialism,

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Speaker 1: but it is deeply excellent. And that's what, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's what our goal is as and we are people

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Speaker 1: of faith, but we wanted to do this story in

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Speaker 1: a way that would make it bulletproof to the skeptics

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Speaker 1: and not see it as some sort of creationism in

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Speaker 1: a tuck suit, you know, which is what sometimes we

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Speaker 1: get accused of, you know, on our side of the equation.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, that's that's why I dived in, Michael, seeing

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Speaker 1: what my own kids had gone through, you know, and

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Speaker 1: going to college, and what they were sort of at

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Speaker 1: least attempted to be indoctrinated into maybe think hard and

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Speaker 1: fast about we do need to say something. And it

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Speaker 1: is a cultural moment right now. There are things happening

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Speaker 1: right now. There are young people are looking for meaning

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Speaker 1: in a bigger way than we've seen in a long time.

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Speaker 1: And I think this movie is exactly the guidebook that

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Speaker 1: they need to start that journey.

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Speaker 3: Return of the Grout how prothesis. You mentioned that that's

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Speaker 3: the book by Stephen Meyer. He's the one who is

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Speaker 3: featured prominently in this film, and that that book has

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Speaker 3: kind of the spark I guess for the movie. Yes, this, Brian,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you're the one to ask this question,

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to ask it anyway. You're a producer

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Speaker 3: that this movie could have This movie could have taken

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Speaker 3: many directions, but it's unique in that there is no

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Speaker 3: narrator and it flows wonderfully.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: What are the challenges of making a film like that

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Speaker 3: in which the experts are really the only ones you

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Speaker 3: hear from, And why did you guys choose that format.

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Speaker 1: We did the same thing on the Story of every

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Speaker 1: or on the Heart of Man, the previous documentary that

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Speaker 1: I mentioned as well. We talked to expert witnesses and

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Speaker 1: let them tell their own story. You know, documentaries are

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the other projects that I do,

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Speaker 1: which all have a script, right, all have a you know,

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Speaker 1: a script that everybody agrees to, and then you start

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Speaker 1: to film it.

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Speaker 2: With documentaries, they you know, you have.

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Speaker 1: A rough idea about what you want to do, and

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Speaker 1: the Steven Meyer's book is a incredible guide book in

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Speaker 1: terms of how to structure this filmp But we also

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Speaker 1: wanted it to We didn't want to write it first

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Speaker 1: and then let it and then try to get people

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Speaker 1: to fill that up, right, like, have an agenda and

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Speaker 1: then and then look for things that would meet our agenda.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to follow the evidence. We wanted to follow

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Speaker 1: the voices of the experts, and sometimes those interviews can

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Speaker 1: take you into different rabbit holes, say you to that

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Speaker 1: you have to pursue, and sometimes they're amazing because they

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Speaker 1: open up new possibilities that you you weren't even thinking

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Speaker 1: of when you started. So part of the reason this

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Speaker 1: movie took so long for us to do was to

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Speaker 1: get the science right, but also to find exactly how

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Speaker 1: to structure it in such a way that it would

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Speaker 1: feel accessible, that it wouldn't feel too heavy handed or

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Speaker 1: too heavy or too intellectual, but that people could have

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Speaker 1: a sense of, Okay, I can follow this because it's

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Speaker 1: being given to me in chapters really that I can follow,

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Speaker 1: and it follows sort of three big movements of science,

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Speaker 1: but we do it in such a way as that

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Speaker 1: we're exploring each of those big chapters in sort of

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Speaker 1: sub chapters along the way. And people have told us

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Speaker 1: that while that science is intense, it is also very

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Speaker 1: accessible and also very easy to understand. We have some

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Speaker 1: animations in it, We have some animetrics in it that

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Speaker 1: help to explain some of the scientific explorations that we're

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Speaker 1: doing in the movie. So we're thrilled when we hear

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Speaker 1: people say, you know what, it is heavy, but I

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Speaker 1: needed it, like I needed this, I needed this right

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Speaker 1: now in my life, And that is so encouraging to us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not one that you're going to want

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Speaker 3: to kind of side eye by looking at your phone.

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Speaker 3: You got to you gotta get on the saddle and

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Speaker 3: hold both hands on the on the on the the reins,

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Speaker 3: I guess. And why you pay attention.

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Speaker 1: It's it's engaging, It's great exactly. I mean, if people

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Speaker 1: want to get on their phones, what we would encourage

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Speaker 1: them to do is tell their friends to go see

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Speaker 1: this movie as it's coming out, you know, April thirtieth

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Speaker 1: in theaters across the country.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's gripping though. I enjoyed it from beginning to end.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious Brian did this making this film, did help

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Speaker 3: making this film? He did encourage your own faith personally.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. I started, Michael, much like you, as

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Speaker 1: a journalist, went to journalism school. I the first part

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Speaker 1: of my career was magazine and newspaper work. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I was raised in a Christian home. I did go

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Speaker 1: to church as a young person. But you can't inherit

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Speaker 1: your parents' faith. You have to embrace faith as an adult.

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Speaker 1: Right when the age of accountability or the age of understanding,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes when we go become adults that we go

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Speaker 1: on our own sort of exploration. Sometimes we go, we

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Speaker 1: can leave that faith behind. And so I was going

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Speaker 1: through secular journalism school worried about how do I hold

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Speaker 1: on to what I have been raised with? And sometimes

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Speaker 1: in life that can send you off on a wild

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Speaker 1: goose chase into another old lifestyle that you may regret

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Speaker 1: later on. And so for me, this movie has been

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Speaker 1: an incredible resetting of my own faith in the Creator,

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Speaker 1: in the worldview that I was raised with. It's incredible

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Speaker 1: what science can do. Science that you that just tells

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Speaker 1: the truth, right, you're just following the science. But what

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Speaker 1: it does is it helps you understand things that you

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Speaker 1: didn't understand or that you had doubts about. And I

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Speaker 1: will just say God is never afraid of our questions.

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Speaker 1: That's why I do believe that every young person must

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Speaker 1: ask their own questions. And as trained as a journalist,

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Speaker 1: what you do as well, you ask questions. You don't

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Speaker 1: just accept, you know on face value what you're told.

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Speaker 1: You have to dig a little bit. And this movie digs.

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Speaker 1: It does dig, and it may challenge some people in

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Speaker 1: a big way, may challenge skeptics.

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Speaker 2: Of faith in a really big way.

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Speaker 1: They're going to have to answer for themselves when they

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Speaker 1: watch this movie, because it does challenge their assumptions in

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Speaker 1: a really big way. And what I've come to understand

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Speaker 1: is that there are just all kinds of different worldviews

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Speaker 1: in the world, right, and we all lean into the

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Speaker 1: things that we that will support our worldview, right. We

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Speaker 1: rarely want to be challenged on those things. It becomes

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Speaker 1: almost our orthodoxy. And I do believe the scientific establishment

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Speaker 1: has almost a religious fervor to their orthodoxy. And as

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Speaker 1: we explained in the movie, many of the arguments that

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Speaker 1: scientists have come to make about say such as the

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Speaker 1: Big Bang, the idea that the universe absolutely had a beginning,

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Speaker 1: that there was a singularity, that there was a point

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Speaker 1: in time where something outside of space and time created

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Speaker 1: all of this, right, somehow that happened. Science points to that,

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Speaker 1: and ninety nine percent of scientists believe now in the singularity.

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Speaker 1: They believe in the Big Bang, in the creation of

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Speaker 1: this universe. So because of that, they've also had to

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Speaker 1: come up with alternate theories. Right almost it's almost the

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Speaker 1: orthodoxy of anything but God to explain how there's a

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Speaker 1: beginning to our universe because they don't want to go there.

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Speaker 1: There's so much of an orthodoxy to what they believe.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to go there. They don't want to

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Speaker 1: even admit the fact that there might be actual design

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Speaker 1: in all of us and in the universe and in

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Speaker 1: the fine tuning of our universe and in the beginning

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Speaker 1: of our universe.

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Speaker 2: They don't want to admit that.

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Speaker 1: So they look for alternative rationale. But those alternatives like

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Speaker 1: the multiverse, like quantum you know science, quantum mechanics, quantum physics,

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Speaker 1: like the simulation theory, which people talk about like we're

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Speaker 1: all living enough simulation. What that does is just kicks

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Speaker 1: the creator that back kicks the can down the road.

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Speaker 1: There still has to be a designer. There still has

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Speaker 1: to be a designer if there's if there's a multiverse,

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Speaker 1: if we're living in a multiverse, and it's our multiverse

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Speaker 1: and it's our universe that just happen to get it

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Speaker 1: right so that the life could happen in our universe.

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Speaker 1: It's the anything but God's syndrome.

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Speaker 2: And they want.

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Speaker 1: To accuse people of faith of wanting to say only

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Speaker 1: God right, right, but they say anything but God. So

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Speaker 1: there's orthodoxies competing orthodoxies, and that's what they are.

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Speaker 2: They're competing worldviews.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that the science that you have

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Speaker 1: to that you should ignore what the science is saying.

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Speaker 1: And what the science is saying is that the story

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Speaker 1: of everything is actually the story of us, That the

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Speaker 1: story of everything is us. Also because we are fearfully

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Speaker 1: and wonderfully made. When you look at us under a

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Speaker 1: microscope and you go deep, deep, deeply into the source

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Speaker 1: of our cells and our proteins and how our bodies actually.

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Speaker 2: Work, there's design and all of it. You can't deny it.

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Speaker 1: So we're not telling people, hey, open your bibles. We're

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Speaker 1: telling people look at the science and then you decide. Right,

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Speaker 1: And I think with young people who are searching for answers,

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely the best thing you could ever do is

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Speaker 1: a movie like this is hand young people a movie

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Speaker 1: like this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just just to kind of give folks a broad

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Speaker 3: overview of what it is. It's it's what some people

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Speaker 3: would call natural theology. And for those who want to

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Speaker 3: go from the end of the movie forward, they can

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Speaker 3: get a book by Lee Struggle or something like that. So,

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Speaker 3: and you talk about the case for Christ, but this

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Speaker 3: is more of a more of an intelligent design argument,

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Speaker 3: I guess it's kind of it's kind of what this is.

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Speaker 3: Let's briefly talk about some other projects you've been involved

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Speaker 3: in that people will be mad at if I don't

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Speaker 3: ask you. One Calls the Heart is maybe the biggest one.

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Speaker 3: Why do you I forget how many seasons? It's what's

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Speaker 3: what season you're in? You can tell us that. Why

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Speaker 3: do you think that has continued to resonate with audiences?

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Speaker 2: Brian, Well, thank you for asking.

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Speaker 1: We just wrapped season thirteen in terms of having it

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Speaker 1: air on the Hallmark Channel, and we are now prepping

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Speaker 1: season fourteen, and we're in the middle of airing our

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Speaker 1: prequel which is called eight Hope Valley eighteen seventy four,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of an origins story about how about

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Speaker 1: how when Calls the art happened in the first place.

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Speaker 1: And there's also a spinoff series called When the Hope Calls,

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Speaker 1: which is now airing season three. So I think the

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Speaker 1: secret sauce here, Michael, is when Michael and I first

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Speaker 1: gave birth to this, as you know as writers and producers.

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Speaker 1: Michael Lander Junior, I should say I sometimes speaking shorthand there,

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Speaker 1: but Michael Annon Jr. And I gave births to this

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Speaker 1: show almost coming on fifteen, you know, fifteen years ago

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Speaker 1: when it started, we were just trying to make a

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Speaker 1: show that would be kind of a legacy, kind of

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Speaker 1: a show that would have the kind of the faith

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Speaker 1: and family values that Michael's father had when he did

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Speaker 1: Little House in the Prairie and I would Heaven and

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Speaker 1: like I did when I did the show Touched by

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Speaker 1: an Angel.

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Speaker 2: In the years since the end of.

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Speaker 1: Little House in the Prairie and Touched by an Angel,

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Speaker 1: there was a whole decade or so in which everybody

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Speaker 1: went dark in terms of the content, Like it just

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Speaker 1: it was like like hope and faith and love and

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Speaker 1: all of those things on television sort of fell off

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Speaker 1: the cliff and everybody went into cynical kinds of content,

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Speaker 1: you know, crooked politicians and crystal meth dealers and zombies

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Speaker 1: and vampires. I mean, like everywhere you turn, and very

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Speaker 1: few people we're doing any kind of programming like Little

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Speaker 1: House on the Prairie or like Touched by an Angel

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Speaker 1: in that whole decade, and so when Michael and I

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Speaker 1: gave birth to When Calls the Heart, all those years ago,

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Speaker 1: we were just trying to kind of get back to

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Speaker 1: that kind of program. We didn't know if it would

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Speaker 1: be successful. We're just trying to make a good show

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Speaker 1: that reflected our values, and boy did it take off.

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Speaker 1: And it was on the Hallmark channel, which is you know,

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Speaker 1: cable television, was on a you know, it wasn't on

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Speaker 1: one of the big networks. So we didn't know if

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Speaker 1: people would even find us amid all the other noise

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Speaker 1: out there in the culture. You know, when there's a

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Speaker 1: thousand shows on television, how do you break through with

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Speaker 1: your content. There's just so much competition for people's hearts

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Speaker 1: and minds and eyeblaws, and so we didn't know if

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Speaker 1: it would be successful or not. But there was a

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Speaker 1: group of people out there that found the show and

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Speaker 1: started to fall in love with it, and they were noisy.

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Speaker 1: They called themselves Hearties. We didn't invent the Hartis. They

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Speaker 1: invented themselves. And they are trekies on steroids.

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Speaker 2: I got to tell you.

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Speaker 1: They're not wearing the tinfoil hats and all the costumes.

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Speaker 1: What they are doing is they're having community around our

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Speaker 1: show and they're making friendships. And the legacy of wind

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Speaker 1: Calls the heart will live, you know, the legacy of

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Speaker 1: the Hearties will live on Long Past Wind Calls the Heart.

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Speaker 1: Someday it will end, but I believe all of that

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Speaker 1: community that has been formed around our show, and we

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Speaker 1: believe there are about two million people who self identify

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Speaker 1: now as Hearties. It was a completely grassroots movement. We

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Speaker 1: never saw it coming, but it came right. And when

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Speaker 1: it came, we were just smart enough to start talking

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Speaker 1: back to them, like we communicated back to them, and

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Speaker 1: that sort of fueled even more growth of this fan movement.

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Speaker 1: And they are the wind beneath our wings. This show

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Speaker 1: is the top rated scripted show on Sunday nights on

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Speaker 1: cable television for several years now, and our numbers are

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Speaker 1: continuing to stay strong, even this deep into the run

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Speaker 1: of the show, which is you know, most shows begin

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Speaker 1: to fall off a little bit, but ours has stayed

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Speaker 1: very strong because people have fallen in love with Hope

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Speaker 1: Valley and the sense of community that the show brings

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Speaker 1: to them, and the redemption, the themes of redemption and

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Speaker 1: forgiveness and second chances and all of that which.

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Speaker 2: The show is rife with.

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Speaker 1: It's just what we believe, like that's what we want

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Speaker 1: to do. It's that kind of content and I think

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Speaker 1: people have sensed our authenticity about this kind of content and.

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Speaker 2: They were hungry for it.

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Speaker 1: If a whole year, a whole decade happens of cynesis

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Speaker 1: them on television and you come along with a little

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Speaker 1: show that could that has not one ounce of cynicism,

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Speaker 1: not a cynical bone in its body.

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Speaker 2: It's food.

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Speaker 1: And when you find an island full of starving people

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Speaker 1: and you bring food to them, they will love you.

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Speaker 1: It's not more complicated than that. That's the equation that

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Speaker 1: we discovered with that, and so it's very humbling to us.

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Speaker 1: It is a it is a beautiful thing to us

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Speaker 1: that we have given birth to this and that it

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Speaker 1: is continuing to stay strong and to lift people up.

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Speaker 1: It has also allowed Michael and I to get dangerous

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Speaker 1: and to do other things right. You know, we have

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Speaker 1: this beautiful sort of platform that has allowed us to

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Speaker 1: you know, move off and try new things. And so

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Speaker 1: the story of Everything is one of those things I've

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Speaker 1: been able to, you know, throw my passion into. And

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Speaker 1: there are several more of them as well that we're

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Speaker 1: working on.

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Speaker 3: This Maybe my final question for you, Brian, what determines

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Speaker 3: how long such a series goes? Is it all about ratings.

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Speaker 3: Is it all about the energy level of the cast

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Speaker 3: and crew. Is it all all those things put together?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think it is.

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Speaker 1: All of those things put together. I think the if

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Speaker 1: the ratings stay significantly strong, you know, all the paradigms

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Speaker 1: are shifting now. So just linear channel. The Hallmark channel

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Speaker 1: is a linear broadcast channel that is an AD supported,

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Speaker 1: you know channel that just like the big networks are.

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Speaker 1: That's linear television. But now there's the streaming side of

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Speaker 1: the equation, the subscription video on demand side, which is

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Speaker 1: represented by platforms like Netflix and Amazon and and Hulu

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Speaker 1: and and and a Hallmark Plus, which is Hallmark's streaming service.

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Speaker 1: Now when shows are they're being seen on multiple platforms

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Speaker 1: all the time now, So the Nielsen ratings are only

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Speaker 1: a piece of the puzzle anymore. If you're driving subscriptions

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Speaker 1: to other platforms, that's a whole other piece of the equation.

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Speaker 2: So I do think.

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Speaker 1: That there is an evergreen quality to a show like

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Speaker 1: When Calls the Heart, it's not going to age, right,

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Speaker 1: it's already a period piece, so it's not going to

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Speaker 1: date itself, and it's We now have over one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty episodes of this show right, and so it's

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Speaker 1: a block of programming that I think people will continue

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Speaker 1: to watch even when we stop making original episodes. It

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Speaker 1: will be seen for generations, just like The Little House

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Speaker 1: in the Prairie is seen still today fifty years after

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Speaker 1: it was born. So I do think that we're not

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Speaker 1: slowing down. We're not nobody's talking talking about how do

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Speaker 1: we wind this up? You know, the all of our

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Speaker 1: channel has been an incredible partner and patron in this,

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Speaker 1: to the degree that we just launched a prequel that

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Speaker 1: is doing really well for them on their subscription service

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Speaker 1: that they're extremely happy with. So the storytelling universe of

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Speaker 1: Jeanette Oak and when Calls the Heart, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not Marvel, it's not Taylor Sharedan by any means, but

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Speaker 1: it is its own little ecosystem that continues to fire

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Speaker 1: on a lot of cylinders.

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Speaker 2: And so we just are.

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Speaker 1: Our attitude is we will make this until the cows

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Speaker 1: come home, until they tell us they don't want it anymore.

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Speaker 4: If you like today's episode, please subscribe and leave a

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Speaker 4: five star review. That's how we help more people just

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Speaker 4: like you find the show. A big thanks to the

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Speaker 4: team at Life Audio for their partnership.

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Speaker 2: With us on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you will find

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Speaker 4: dozens of other faith centered podcast in their network. See

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Speaker 4: you next time,