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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Build Different is a production of the American Association of

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Speaker 2: Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you

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Speaker 2: can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread

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Speaker 2: the Gospel, and provide mental health resources and training to

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Speaker 2: people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation dot org. Again, that's

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Speaker 2: Aaccfoundation dot org. Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton,

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Speaker 2: your host, and each week I come to you exclusively

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Speaker 2: on the Life Audio podcast Network. I'm proud to partner

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Speaker 2: with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family

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Speaker 2: friendly podcasts for a new generation.

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Speaker 1: I Built Different.

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Speaker 2: Our mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to

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Speaker 2: help push you past your limits and reach goals you

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Speaker 2: never thought possible. Colossians two, verse six says, So then,

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Speaker 2: just as you received Christ Jesus's Lord, continue to live

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Speaker 2: your lives in him, rooted and built up in him.

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Speaker 1: Amen. Now let's roll.

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Speaker 2: Wello everybody, and welcome back into another edition of the

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Speaker 2: Built Different podcast. As always, I'll be your host today,

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Speaker 2: doctor Zach Clinton, and let me start out by saying,

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited for today's conversation because one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite times of the year is finally here. You guessed it, Christmas.

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Speaker 2: So let me start out by wishing you and yours

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Speaker 2: are very blessed in Merry Christmas. I hope and pray

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Speaker 2: that today and every day you would experience and feel

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Speaker 2: the nearness of God a little bit more. And today,

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Speaker 2: as we step into the season and holiday of anticipation,

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Speaker 2: joy and reflection, I can't think of a better guest

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Speaker 2: to help us get our hearts and mind centered than

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Speaker 2: today's very own Lee Strobel is a New York Times

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Speaker 2: bestselling author, former award winning investigative journalist, and one of

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Speaker 2: the most influential apologists of our day and age. You

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Speaker 2: know him from The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith,

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Speaker 2: The Case for Easter, the Case for Miracles, Seeing the Supernatural,

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Speaker 2: and so many others. But today we get to dive

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Speaker 2: into something special is newly re released and nearly ninety

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Speaker 2: percent reworked in re written book, The Case for Christmas.

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Speaker 2: So before we get into the deep stuff, Lee, my friend,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining me today.

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Speaker 3: Well, Zach, always great to be with you. I sure

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Speaker 3: appreciate the opportunity.

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Speaker 2: I always love having you on here because, as I

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Speaker 2: mentioned before, I even press record the impact you have

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Speaker 2: had on my life and on countless family members, and

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Speaker 2: I know countless others.

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Speaker 1: Has been astronomical.

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Speaker 2: So grateful for you and just what God is continuing

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Speaker 2: to do in and through you. But Lee, let me

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Speaker 2: say this, It's Christmas time and there's something magical in

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Speaker 2: the air. I don't know about you, but I love

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Speaker 2: the trees and the lights and the stockings and the

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Speaker 2: gifts and the music and the magic Lee for you.

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Speaker 2: And I'll say this, it's not just magical for Christians,

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Speaker 2: but for everybody. What is it about this time of

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Speaker 2: the year, in this season that makes it so magical?

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Speaker 3: Yeah. You know a lot of us Christians like to

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Speaker 3: complain that, oh, Christmas has gotten secularized and commercialized and

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Speaker 3: so forth. But the truth is the fact that it

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Speaker 3: kind of dominates our cultural consciousness for a month or

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Speaker 3: so every year. I think speaks to people who are

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Speaker 3: not Christians, spiritually curious people. You know, studies are showing

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Speaker 3: that people are more open spiritually during the Christmas season.

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Speaker 3: More non believers come to Christmas services than any other

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Speaker 3: time of the year. So there's something in the culture

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Speaker 3: in the moment, and something in the season that I

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Speaker 3: think is drawing people. God is stirring something, and you know,

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Speaker 3: Colossian says we should seize every opportunity to share Jesus

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Speaker 3: to be strong, salt and bright light to people who

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Speaker 3: are spiritually curious, and this is our opportunity to do it.

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Speaker 2: We know, as we continue to delve into this conversation today,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about the Nativity scene, the story

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Speaker 2: behind Christmas, and so much more. But you know, Lee,

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Speaker 2: as I begin thinking about Christmas and I mentioned it's

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite times of the year. It's been

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Speaker 2: a tradition in our household for countless years and it's

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Speaker 2: been passed down through the generations to make this season

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Speaker 2: one that is very special.

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Speaker 1: One I know my dad mentioned.

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Speaker 2: To you in an early earlier interview a couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks back, is we used to go up to my

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Speaker 2: grandfather's trailer, and that trailer really was I'm only supposed

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Speaker 2: to sleep about maybe eight or so. We'd pack about

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Speaker 2: twenty five to thirty of us in their lead and

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Speaker 2: we would just have trees everywhere, presents everywhere, but it

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Speaker 2: was just filled with love and it was just moments

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Speaker 2: of tradition. Door prizes were something my papacy used to

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Speaker 2: give out. If you walked in the door, you got

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Speaker 2: a prize. I remember getting pocket knife was on I

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Speaker 2: was like four or five years Oldly it was something else.

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Speaker 2: But we love carrying traditions. I would love to hear

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Speaker 2: from you. I'm just even to somebody like in my

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Speaker 2: next generation the importance of traditions and how they really

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Speaker 2: are the glue that whole families together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they really are. And you know, it's a great

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Speaker 3: way to get into a conversation with someone who's maybe

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Speaker 3: not a Christian this time of year to say, what

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Speaker 3: are the traditions that you had growing up around Christmas?

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Speaker 3: Because everybody observes it in one way or the other,

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Speaker 3: and it's a great way to get into conversations. Hey,

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Speaker 3: what was Christmas like for you when you were five

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Speaker 3: or six years old? And often they'll say, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, it was great. We'd we'd have big tree

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Speaker 3: and we'd open presents one at a time and sell

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Speaker 3: great that and then the cousins would come over and

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Speaker 3: we go to church. And then you say, oh, wow,

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Speaker 3: that sounds great. Hey do you still go to church? Well, no,

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Speaker 3: you know, I kind of stopped going in college. Really,

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Speaker 3: how come and now you're into a spiritual conversation. So

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Speaker 3: the Christmas traditions really do open up a bridge that

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Speaker 3: we can use to get into these kind of spiritual

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Speaker 3: engagements with people who are far from God.

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Speaker 2: I love that the engagement around traditions really is a

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Speaker 2: tool for evangelism. Lee, I got to ask a fun

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Speaker 2: question up front before we dive into the deep stuff.

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Speaker 2: What are some of your favorite traditions in the Strobel household.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's you know, we always get the grandkids together,

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Speaker 3: you know, every Christmas, many of them as we can,

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Speaker 3: because my son, as you know, as a professor of

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Speaker 3: theology at the Tablet School Theology in California, So we

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Speaker 3: got two younger grandkids out there. So we'll have the

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Speaker 3: older grandkids gathering here in Houston, Texas and have a

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Speaker 3: great time at church. On Christmas Eve, we always go

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Speaker 3: out to ironically an Asian restaurant. I don't know why,

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Speaker 3: but it's kind of tradition that we go to an

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Speaker 3: Asian restaurant on Christmas Eve and enjoy that, and then

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Speaker 3: the next morning open Presence and uh, you know, read

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Speaker 3: the accounts of the Birth of Jesus from Luke and

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Speaker 3: from Matthew and you know, and just enjoy each other's company.

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Speaker 3: And now now my older grandkids getting old, now they

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Speaker 3: got boyfriends and fiances that they bring along, so it

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Speaker 3: makes it even more fun.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing how the family just keeps on growing, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you this, Lee, I love some Asian food,

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Speaker 2: Japanese food, some of my favorites.

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Speaker 1: So I'd be joining that.

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Speaker 3: Whatever happened to turkey, I guess that's Thanksgiving? I like

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Speaker 3: turkey dog on it.

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Speaker 1: Lee.

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Speaker 2: Let me dive in here for a moment to kind

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Speaker 2: of the topic of our conversation. You've written countless best

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Speaker 2: selling books, as I mentioned, several that have been influential

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Speaker 2: in my life and a lot of people that I

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Speaker 2: know and love. But the one that we'll be diving

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Speaker 2: into today is one that you recently re released, The

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Speaker 2: Case for Christmas, and I'd be interested. I know ninety

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Speaker 2: percent I think is rewritten or kind of reworked in

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Speaker 2: some way, shape or form. I'd love to hear just

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Speaker 2: why did you really feel the need to go back

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Speaker 2: at such a time as this to kind of re

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Speaker 2: release this very important work.

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Speaker 3: Well, you just said such a time as this, I

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Speaker 3: believe God is stirring our culture, and I wanted to

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Speaker 3: update the book. There have been some discoveries in recent years,

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Speaker 3: historical discoveries, archaeological discoveries that I wanted to bring into

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Speaker 3: the conversation that have a bearing on the Christmas story,

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Speaker 3: and I wanted to just go from A to Z

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Speaker 3: and write a fresh account. I actually wrote it on

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Speaker 3: Christmas Eve last year. Yeah, I was. I was sitting

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Speaker 3: at home and there was Christmas and we've just been

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Speaker 3: to church and and that's when I began to write

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Speaker 3: the book in the midst of that Christmas celebration. So

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Speaker 3: I wanted to have something fresh, something up to date,

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Speaker 3: because I and something has Gospel in it, something that's inexpensive.

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Speaker 3: You can get online for a couple of bucks and

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Speaker 3: go to hobby lobby. They'll give it to you for free.

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Speaker 3: Have you bought half a million copies and are giving

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Speaker 3: them away for free to people between now and Christmas.

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Speaker 3: We want to get it as many hands as we

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Speaker 3: can because the Gospel is in it. And my hope

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Speaker 3: and prayer is that people this Christmas season will be

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Speaker 3: intrigued by the Christmas story and you know, delve into

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Speaker 3: it and find Jesus.

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Speaker 2: As you mentioned it's inexpensive, it's about pocket size, but

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Speaker 2: at the same time, it's less than one hundred pages.

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Speaker 2: So if you're not somebody that likes to read, there's

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Speaker 2: no excuse here. This is an incredible book. It's an

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Speaker 2: incredible read, and I believe it's a very valuable asset

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Speaker 2: this time of the year, especially for those in need.

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Speaker 3: Lee.

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Speaker 1: You know, something that I really.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate about the book, and one of the traditions that

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Speaker 2: my wife Evelyn and I have actually dove into the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years is the book. And I should say,

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Speaker 2: the Gospel of Luke has twenty four chapters, and so

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Speaker 2: we read a chapter a day leading up to Christmas Day,

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Speaker 2: and recently, obviously, we read through Luke chapter two on

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Speaker 2: December second. And that's kind of the Nativity story, that's

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Speaker 2: the Christmas story that we read at so many of

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Speaker 2: our family dinners and our pot lucks and our traditions

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Speaker 2: and all of these things. And you talk a little

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Speaker 2: bit about Luke two, and you dive into it as

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Speaker 2: would be, but you really focus on the significance of

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Speaker 2: the virgin birth, and you talk about kind of the

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Speaker 2: different correlations between Luke and Matthew in the book, I'd

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Speaker 2: love for you take us into that intilod.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of skeptics, like I used to be

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Speaker 3: an atheist, and a lot of skepticals say, hey, how

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Speaker 3: come only two of the gospels really have any details

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Speaker 3: about the birth of Jesus if it was so important,

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Speaker 3: the virgin birth. And the answer is, we have two,

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Speaker 3: first of all, very early different independent accounts. Now we

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Speaker 3: have the Gospel of Luke. Luke, by the way, who

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Speaker 3: doesn't say, oh, I'm writing something once upon a time,

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Speaker 3: something that happened in the distant midst of the past.

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Speaker 3: Now he says, I carefully investigated everything so I could

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Speaker 3: write an orderly account about the certainty of what took place.

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Speaker 3: He was a first century investigative reporter. I believe he

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Speaker 3: interviewed Mary. If not, I believe he interviewed Anna or Susannah,

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Speaker 3: who he mentions in his gospel. They knew Mary, they

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Speaker 3: were friends with Mary. So he writes his gospel account

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Speaker 3: of the birth of Jesus from Mary's perspective. And then

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Speaker 3: we have Matthew. Matthew was a disciple. Matthew later went

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Speaker 3: on to become a leader of the church in Jerusalem. Well,

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Speaker 3: one of the other leaders of that church was James.

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Speaker 3: They have brother of Jesus, and James undoubtedly told Matthew

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Speaker 3: about the birth of Jesus from the perspective, kind of

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Speaker 3: the male perspective of the time. In fact, I was

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Speaker 3: talking to a mother recently. She has a couple of kids,

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Speaker 3: and she says, yeah, she said, ask any parent, the

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Speaker 3: mom and the dad, tell us the story of the

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Speaker 3: birth of your first child, and you'll get two different stories.

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Speaker 3: They're the same, and it's on the same event, but

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Speaker 3: from two different perspectives, right, And this is true in

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Speaker 3: Luke and Matthew. So we've got that shows us we've

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Speaker 3: got independent reports are not drawing from the same sources.

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Speaker 3: And so this is very early stuff goes right there

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Speaker 3: to the first century and therefore historically trustworthy. And then

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Speaker 3: what's interesting is Mark, who writes about the recollections of Peter,

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Speaker 3: who is also a disciple in one of the inner

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Speaker 3: circle of Jesus, and he starts his gospel later in

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Speaker 3: the life of Jesus. He doesn't get into the birth,

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Speaker 3: but very interestingly in Mark chapter six, verse three, he

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Speaker 3: refers to Jesus as being Mary's son. You would never

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Speaker 3: do that. In first century Jewish culture, it's always the

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Speaker 3: father's son, always be Joseph's son, even if Joseph were

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Speaker 3: deceased by then, you would always refer to a child

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Speaker 3: as the father son, Joseph's son. No, no, no, he

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Speaker 3: said Mary's son. And I think that's kind of a

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Speaker 3: wink to say, Yeah, I know Joseph isn't his biological father.

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Speaker 3: I get that, and it was Mary, So I think

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Speaker 3: that's an affirmation. And then John, of course, who wrote

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Speaker 3: the Last Gospel, he doesn't repeat a lot of things

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Speaker 3: from the earlier Gospels. He writes this grand theological piece

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Speaker 3: about the incarnation. The beginning was the Word, the Word

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Speaker 3: was with God, and the Word was God, and then

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Speaker 3: he came into our world and dwelled among us. So

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Speaker 3: he takes this big, theological, sweeping kind of language. But interestingly,

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Speaker 3: John had a disciple who he mentor. That guy wrote

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Speaker 3: a letter very earl and in that letter he refers

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Speaker 3: to Jesus as being quote really and truly born of

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Speaker 3: a virgin. Well, where do you get that idea? I

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Speaker 3: think from John It was one of the original disciples. Wow.

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Speaker 2: You know, Lee, what I love about you is you

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Speaker 2: are so investigative in nature obviously as a journalist, but

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Speaker 2: one thing you really seek to find is the evidence.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me of First Thessalonians five nineteen to twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Do not stifle the Holy Spirit, Do not scoff at prophecies,

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Speaker 2: but test everything that is said, hold on to what

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Speaker 2: is good, stay away from every kind of evil. And

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Speaker 2: when I think about you and your story, obviously this

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Speaker 2: book The Case for Christmas, you go back to a

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Speaker 2: very specific Christmas where early in your investigative journalist career,

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Speaker 2: the Delgado family taught you something back. I think it

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Speaker 2: was nineteen seventy four, is that right, That's right, that's right,

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Speaker 2: take us back into that moment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was an atheist and I was assigned to

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Speaker 3: do a thirty part series about the most that's the

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Speaker 3: two families of Chicago, to profile one each day. So

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Speaker 3: the first family I did a profile one was a

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Speaker 3: Delgado family. Sixty year old Perfected Delgado had severe arthritis,

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Speaker 3: she couldn't work, she had two granddaughters, she was raising

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Speaker 3: an eleven year old and a thirteen year old, and

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Speaker 3: they had virtually no possessions. I mean they were virtually

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Speaker 3: devoid of anything. And I wrote an article that was

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Speaker 3: published on Thanksgiving Day, and I put their address on

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Speaker 3: West Homer Street in Chicago in the article because I

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Speaker 3: hope Tribune readers would respond. So on Christmas Eve, I'm

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Speaker 3: in the news room. There's no news going on. So

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Speaker 3: I got in a car and I drove back over

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Speaker 3: to their novel that they lived in on West Homer Street.

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Speaker 3: And they opened the door and it was like Macy's

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Speaker 3: in their place. I mean, the Tribune readers had showered

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Speaker 3: them with appliances and beds and furniture and rugs and

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Speaker 3: and food cartons and cartons overflowing with food, thousands of

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Speaker 3: dollars in cash, and and warm winter coats and scarves

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Speaker 3: and gloves. But what shocked me as an atheist was

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Speaker 3: what I interrupted, which was the Delgados were packaging up

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Speaker 3: much of their newfound wealth to give it away. And

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Speaker 3: I said, what are you doing? And and and perfected

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Speaker 3: in her halting English, said oh this is wonderful, this

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Speaker 3: is very nice, but we cannot have plenty while our

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Speaker 3: neighbors have nothing. This is what Jesus would want us

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Speaker 3: to do. And so I'm blown away by this. And

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Speaker 3: I said, well, well, are you grateful for all these

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Speaker 3: things that the Tribune readers have provided. She said, oh, yes,

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Speaker 3: this is wonderful. This is a gift from God. We

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Speaker 3: didn't deserve this. But she said, that is not God's

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Speaker 3: greatest gift that comes tomorrow. That is Jesus. And what

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Speaker 3: struck me is even when they had nothing, that family

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Speaker 3: had such an aura of love and grace. They didn't

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Speaker 3: feel victimized. They weren't. They didn't consider themselves to be deprived.

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Speaker 3: They had Jesus, and Jesus sustained them when they had nothing,

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Speaker 3: and here when they had plenty, they wanted to share

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Speaker 3: it with people who didn't have as much as they did.

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Speaker 3: And it just struck me that, even as an atheist,

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Speaker 3: I began to think I'd like to know this Jesus.

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Speaker 3: They know because I saw Jesus in them, in their generosity,

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Speaker 3: in their kindness, in their their their you know, just

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Speaker 3: the beauty of their lives despite their situation. And that

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Speaker 3: was a factor that was a link in a long

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Speaker 3: chain that ultimately led me to faith seven years later.

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Speaker 3: So I love the Dogados. I've tried over the years

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Speaker 3: to try to find them, and I think Perfect is

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Speaker 3: probably deceased because this happened nineteen seventy four. Step it

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Speaker 3: back then. But I can't find the grandchildren. I've tried.

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Speaker 3: Maybe there'll be listeners today and they'll contact me. I

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Speaker 3: think they probably got married and have different names now,

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Speaker 3: and I'd love to just say thank you, thank you

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Speaker 3: for embodying the love and generosity of Jesus in a

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Speaker 3: way that even an atheist with a hard heart and

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Speaker 3: a hardhead like me saw in you.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to stop this right there and jump in

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Speaker 2: to say, you're listening to bil Different.

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Speaker 1: I'm Zach Clinton.

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Speaker 2: We need to break for a brief message from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation flowing.

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Speaker 2: Right after this. You're listening to Life Audio. You know

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Speaker 2: Lee your story. I think why it's so moving and

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Speaker 2: it's so touching. I was blessed to have been born

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Speaker 2: in a Christian home, mom and dad that loved God,

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Speaker 2: love each other, and loved me and my sister more

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Speaker 2: than anything in the world, and so I was raised

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Speaker 2: in the faith almost like by default. But there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of people out there that might be listening today

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Speaker 2: who they don't believe by default. They weren't raised around faith,

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Speaker 2: They didn't go to church, they haven't heard this gospel. Well,

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Speaker 2: they don't understand the virgin birth. They don't understand who

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Speaker 2: this baby in a manger is. They just celebrate Christmas, right,

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Speaker 2: They love Santa Claus, they love the gifts, they love

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Speaker 2: the joy this time of the year. But as you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: and I'll never forget interviewing you several years ago, and

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Speaker 2: we've done this a couple of times now, but when

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Speaker 2: you mentioned to me that your wife, you started seeing

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Speaker 2: some differences in your wife and she converted to Christianity,

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Speaker 2: and you were kind of rubbed the wrong way by it.

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Speaker 2: You wanted to disprove it, to discredit it, and you

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Speaker 2: did everything you could. But you made a statement, and

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Speaker 2: you said this, it actually would take more faith for

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Speaker 2: me to have remained an atheist than it would for

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Speaker 2: me to have converted to Christianity in the first place.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned how the del Gatto family was a peace

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Speaker 2: or a factor in that puzzle. But walk us through

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Speaker 2: a little bit about how you may not have believed

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Speaker 2: by default, but yet because of all of the overwhelming evidence,

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Speaker 2: you found your way understanding who that baby was.

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Speaker 1: In the major.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the God as kind of cracked open my

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Speaker 3: heart a bit. But my mind needed to understand this

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Speaker 3: because my background and journalism and laws. So I'm looking

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Speaker 3: for facts, corroboration, evidence, data, truth. And so my wife

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Speaker 3: became a Christian. I was going a divorce her because

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Speaker 3: of that. And yet I saw, as you say, these

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Speaker 3: positive things that impressed me in her life, the way

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Speaker 3: she related to me and the children. But then I

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Speaker 3: wanted the old leslie back. And so I thought, if

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Speaker 3: I could disprove the resurrection of Jesus and I could

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Speaker 3: rescue her from this gulf that she's gotten involved in.

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Speaker 3: Because Christmas is not just about the birth of the

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Speaker 3: son of God who lived the perfect life to show

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Speaker 3: us how to live. Yes, he did, but his mission

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Speaker 3: in life was to die. He was born to die

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Speaker 3: because that is the way that he was able to

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Speaker 3: pay the penalty we deserve for the sins that we've committed,

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Speaker 3: so he could offer forgiveness and eternal life as a

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Speaker 3: free gift of his grace. So his resurrection, which symbolized

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Speaker 3: his triumph over death, which confirmed his claims that he

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Speaker 3: is the unique son of God, that historic became the

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Speaker 3: lynchpin of Christianity. You know, there is evidence for the

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Speaker 3: virgin birth, there is evidence for the birth of Jesus.

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Speaker 3: But the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, that he

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Speaker 3: not only claimed to be God but backed it up

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Speaker 3: by returning from the dead, is so strong that, for instance,

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Speaker 3: many most of the facts that we accept as being

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Speaker 3: true about the ancient world, things about Alexander the Great

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Speaker 3: or whatever, when you dig down, you find the only

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Speaker 3: based on one source or maybe two sources of information.

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Speaker 3: And yet what I found in my investigation is that

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Speaker 3: when you look at the conviction of the disciples that

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Speaker 3: they encountered the resurrected Jesus, we have no fewer than

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Speaker 3: nine ancient sources inside and outside the New Testament confirming

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Speaker 3: and corroborating the conviction of the disciples that they encountered

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Speaker 3: the risen Christ. That is an avalanche of historical data

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Speaker 3: that points powerfully toward the truth that he did back

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Speaker 3: up his claim to being the son of God. The

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Speaker 3: evidence is so strong you could go to the numbers

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Speaker 3: the best. The most successful defense attorney who ever lived,

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Speaker 3: his name was Sirlinel Luku. He was a skeptic about

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Speaker 3: the resurrection. He was later knighted by Queen Elizabeth twice

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Speaker 3: became a Supreme Court member of his country, and he

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Speaker 3: was a skeptic. But then he did what I did.

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Speaker 3: He investigated the history, the evidence, and this was the

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Speaker 3: conclusion he said. I say unequivocally that the evidence for

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Speaker 3: the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it

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Speaker 3: compels acceptance by proof, which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.

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Speaker 3: This from the greatest the defense attorney that ever lived,

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Speaker 3: a guy who knows what evidence is. So you know, yes,

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Speaker 3: I needed my mind to be satisfied, not just my heart.

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Speaker 3: I know that's not true of everybody. Some people, they

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Speaker 3: hear the Gospel message, it resonates deeply within them. They

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Speaker 3: bend their needed Jesus, receive him as their Lord and savior.

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Speaker 3: I just had too many sticking points in my spiritual attourney.

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Speaker 3: I needed those. I needed the evidence.

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Speaker 2: You know what, Lee, I'm just thinking about my mother

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Speaker 2: in law and my father in law. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if I've shared this with you in the past.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I have.

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Speaker 2: Jane and Chris Sherman are their names, but they were

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Speaker 2: both scientists for a very long time, and they didn't

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Speaker 2: grow up believing in Christianity. They weren't raised in the

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Speaker 2: faith whatsoever, and they ended up believing a different truth

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Speaker 2: than the absolute truth. And it were books like The

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Speaker 2: Case for Christ, the Case for Easter, the Case for

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Speaker 2: Christmas that really helped them grasp onto all of the

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Speaker 2: overwhelming evidence that helped them convert and lead them to

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Speaker 2: the Lord and deepen and strengthen their faith throughout the year.

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Speaker 2: So Lee, let me say this on behalf of my

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Speaker 2: family and my in laws, my wife were grateful for

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Speaker 2: you and just the feverish work at.

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Speaker 3: That man that makes that makes my month, that is

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Speaker 3: that is just so, that is just so amazing, and

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Speaker 3: I can't take the credit for it. I really believe

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Speaker 3: that God took that book and has done something beyond

434
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,719
Speaker 3: what I put into it. Yes, and you know, I

435
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 3: get stories almost every day of people who found God

436
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 3: through that book, and I think that's not what I did,

437
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 3: and it's not false modesty. I really believe I brote

438
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 3: the book. I did that, but God took it the

439
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 3: Holy Spirit like beyond anything I'd ever put into it.

440
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 3: And it's the joy of my life to hear stories

441
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 3: like that. People like Evil Knievel, you know, who came

442
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 3: to faith through the book and whose life was radically

443
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 3: changed at the end of his life. He became an

444
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 3: evangelist at the end of his life. It just makes

445
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 3: my day. It just nothing. You know, my goal now

446
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 3: as a Christians to drag as many people heaven with

447
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: me as I can.

448
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 1: I love that, and so Lee.

449
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: One thing that we've noticed a lot, even in the

450
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 2: research and the data, is that about eighty to eighty

451
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 2: eight percent of I would just say people in America

452
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: are celebrating Christmas, They're hanging streamers, they're putting up trees,

453
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: celebrating Christmas light, seeing Christmas carols, but really only about

454
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 2: forty to forty five percent of Americans identify as Christians.

455
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: Lee, I'm interested.

456
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 2: I mean celebrating the holiday, but actually identifying as a

457
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 2: christ and walking the walk. Where's the discrepancy in the

458
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 2: difference there, my friend?

459
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question. I think. You know, political

460
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 3: folks like to use the term Rhino Republican in name only. Well,

461
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 3: unfortunately we have Christians in name only. They may have

462
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 3: grown up in a Christian culture, we are largely a

463
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 3: culture that is oriented towards Christianity. And they think, well,

464
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 3: because I'm born in the United States, I must be

465
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 3: a Christian, but you know, it's just not true. And

466
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 3: so they go through the emotions of enjoying Christmas and

467
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 3: it's fun and it's interesting and gift given. Who doesn't

468
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 3: like Christmas? But the real meaning of Christmas eludes them.

469
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 3: But I stay positive in that and say, you know what,

470
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 3: because people are more spiritually sensitive at Christmas because they're

471
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 3: kind of going through these motions of a cultural Christianity.

472
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,479
Speaker 3: My hope in prayer is that they would have their

473
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 3: eyes open to the reality of what Christmas is all about,

474
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 3: especially in this Christmas season when we have God stirring

475
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: the culture in the aftermath of the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

476
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 3: Very interesting to see that among young people those that

477
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 3: took some sort of a step as a result of

478
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 3: the assassination of Charlie Cook Kirk over three times as

479
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 3: many took a spiritual step as opposed to a political step.

480
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 3: And so there's something stirring in our culture. And my

481
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 3: hope is that people who are Christians in name only

482
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 3: become Christians through faith in Jesus Christ, receiving him as

483
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 3: their forgiver and leader, and then seeing the reality of

484
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 3: two Corinthians five seventeen, which is to say the old

485
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 3: has now gone and the new has come. They're born again.

486
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 3: To use John three to three language.

487
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: Hey man, my friend, you know something that you mentioned

488
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: to me a while back was that if we number

489
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: one believe but then received, we can become a child

490
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 2: of God. And as you mentioned, in the culture and

491
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: society we find ourselves in, there seems to be a stirring.

492
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 2: There's a hunger for holiness, there's a thirst for truth.

493
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: It's amazing to see what God is doing right here

494
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: right now.

495
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, we believe, plus receive equals become. And I think

496
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: the problem and culture of many people believe Jesus. I

497
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 3: believe he's the son of God, but so what demons

498
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 3: believe that? Yeah, there needs to be a point in

499
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 3: time where we receive this free gift of forgiveness and

500
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 3: eternal life that He purchased for us on the cross

501
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: when he died as our substitute. And when we do

502
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 3: that we in a prayer, repentance, and faith, then we

503
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 3: become a child of God forever.

504
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: Hey, you're listening to the Build Different Podcasts. I'm your host,

505
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: doctor Zach Clinton, and today's guest is someone I deeply respect,

506
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 2: love and appreciate Lee Stroble. We're talking about the re

507
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 2: released case for Christmas and unpacking the evidence, the theology,

508
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: and the wonder behind the story.

509
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 1: We celebrate every year.

510
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: Lee. You mentioned it's pocket size, less than one hundred pages,

511
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: cheap in price, inexpensive. It's an incredible gift for someone

512
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 2: this Christmas. Remind just all of our audience and our listeners.

513
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: Where can they pick up a copy today?

514
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? I call it spiritual stocking stuffer. I've been given away.

515
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: I bought three hundred copies of myself. You have to

516
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: buy your own book, as it turns out, So I

517
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 3: bought three hundred and I've been giving them away. I

518
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 3: did today. I gave two away today. Love this to

519
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: flight attendants and to the waitresses and waiters and hotel

520
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 3: clerks and people I encounter. And people are so funny

521
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 3: when you give them a book. It's like they clutch

522
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 3: it and say, oh, thank you, a book I love

523
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 3: to read. And people are so appreciative. And at Halloween

524
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 3: we gave out candy to the kids and then we

525
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 3: said here's here's something for your for your parents and

526
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: the one thirteen year old. I guess about his age.

527
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 3: One of the older trick or treaters looked at the book.

528
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 3: He said, no, I want to read this looks fascinating.

529
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 3: So yeah, any place people get books, you know, it's available.

530
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 3: I know at Mardell dot com they have it for

531
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 3: probably cheaper than anybody like you know, under three dollars.

532
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 3: And as I say, hobby Lobby bought half a million copies. Wow,

533
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 3: and they're giving it away to any customer between now

534
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 3: and Christmas because they're running out now. But that's another

535
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 3: place I get. I get pictures that people sent me

536
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 3: from hobby Lobby saying hey, I got your book for free,

537
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 3: And I always right back and say that's great. Why

538
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 3: don't you read it and then give it away to somebody.

539
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: I love that, Lee, It's an incredible resource, especially around

540
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: this time of the year. You know, one thing I

541
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: wanted to bring up today is we continue to unpack

542
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: that book.

543
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 3: Lee.

544
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: There's a lot of misconceptions about the Christmas story. I think,

545
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: you know, we see them all in the movies, we

546
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: hear all about it sometimes from stages and Christmas plays

547
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: and more. But you know, you mentioned throughout the book

548
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: that sometimes there's some mistranslations. Sometimes we misunderstand Greek and

549
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: Hebrew words and what they really mean. Take us into

550
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: maybe some of those findings that we might be surprised by.

551
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, here's the one that surprised me. You know. The

552
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: story that we typically hear at Christmas is that Mary

553
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 3: and Joseph because of the census they had to go

554
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 3: to register. They go to Beth Lamb because Joseph was

555
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 3: of the House of David, and they knock in the

556
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 3: door of an inn or a lodge, and the innkeeper says, sorry,

557
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 3: no room, and so they go off into a stable

558
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 3: among the animals and give birth and the baby put

559
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 3: into a manger or a feeding trough. That's probably not

560
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 3: what happened. That all depends on one word in the

561
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: Greek atalima, and how is that word to be translated,

562
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 3: Because what Luke says is the baby was laid in

563
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 3: the hay of a manger because there was no room

564
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 3: for them in the katalima. Does that mean an inn?

565
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 3: Probably not, because Luke only uses it one other time,

566
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: and when he does, it's a room in a private residence.

567
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 3: He uses another room like in the Good Samaritan story

568
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 3: about a commercial establishment an inn, and he uses the

569
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: word pandohean, which is the Greek word for a lodge

570
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: or an inn. So he knew what word to use

571
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: if he meant an inn. But I don't think he

572
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: meant an inn. In fact, as far back as the

573
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: year thirteen ninety five, John Wickliffe, in his English translation

574
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 3: of the New Testament, translated it as a private residence.

575
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: And that's probably what it means. It means a guest room.

576
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: In the New the NIV today, which is probably the

577
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: most popular translation, there is no inn. It's it's a

578
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 3: guest room. So let me explain what a first century

579
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: Jewish home look like in Bethlehem. It was one large

580
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 3: room divided into two parts. The larger part was the

581
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: living area. That's where they would live and sleep and

582
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: eat their meals. And then there were a couple of

583
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 3: steps down to a smaller area, and that's where the

584
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: animals were brought at night. You know, they may have

585
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: a couple of sheep, a couple of goats, and you

586
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: know how cute these animals are. They were like pets

587
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: to them, you know, a little sheep, the little little lambs.

588
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: And so there was a feeding trough, a manger there.

589
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: But there was also one in the living area, because

590
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: often the little sheep would come up the steps into

591
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 3: the living area and they would pet them and play

592
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: with them because they were like pets. So there were

593
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 3: two mangers. Now, the more wealthy people had a katali mah,

594
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 3: which was a guest room that had a separate entrance,

595
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: and that was a larger area for guests who would visit.

596
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: So what probably happened, according to a best translation of

597
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 3: that word, is that Mary and Joseph came to Bethlehem.

598
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 3: They knock on the door of a relative and say, hey,

599
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: we're here for the census, and the relative says, oh,

600
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: so good to see you, but sorry, the guest room,

601
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: the katali ma is already taken. You can come and

602
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: stay in the living area. And that is apparently where

603
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: Mary gave birth to Jesus. And then, yes, there is

604
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: a manger there, and yes, maybe a couple of the

605
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: animals did wonder what the commotion was about and come

606
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: up the steps and witness what was going on. And yes,

607
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 3: the baby was laid in the clean hay of a

608
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: feeding trough a manger there in the living area. That's

609
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 3: probably what happened. It is even unlikely that there would

610
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: have been an inn in Bethlehem in the first century.

611
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: It was a small town of five hundred people. It

612
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: wasn't on a major crossroads or anything. And to add

613
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: to that, it would have been virtually impossible for an

614
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 3: innkeeper to turn away a pregnant Jewish woman in the

615
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 3: first century. The value of hospitality was so high. If

616
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: you did that, you would be ostracized by that, you'd

617
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: be put out of business, you'd be run out of

618
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 3: town on a rail. You could not do that in

619
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: the first century. So I think that's probably the best understanding.

620
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: And again the NIV translated as guest room, right, there's

621
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: no room in the guest room. The idea, by the way,

622
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: that they gave birth in a stable or a cave

623
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: was popularized a couple of hundred years later. In the

624
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 3: year two hundred e d. There was a book of

625
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: fiction that was written. It didn't have historical roots. It's

626
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: called the proto Evangelism of Protovangelium of James, and it

627
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 3: doesn't have any connection to James. It's written way after

628
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 3: the fact. It's not historically trustworthy. And in that account,

629
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: Mary and Joseph are approaching Bethlham. They get within three

630
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 3: miles of Beth Lamb and she starts to get birth.

631
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: So they go into a cave and she gives birth

632
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: in a cave. That's with this idea that some people

633
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: think of of a cave of being the place it's

634
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: from a book of fiction, doesn't have a historical significance.

635
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 3: So that's probably what took place in the first century.

636
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 3: You know, I hate to bop any bubbles that there

637
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: was no innkeeper again, but it's probably not true.

638
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, Lee, I appreciate again just all of

639
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: the investigative efforts here and finding the real evidence behind

640
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: what actually happened, because those things really do matter, and

641
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: people that are skeptics they want to know those answers.

642
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: In chapter five of this book, you really tackle some

643
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: of the most commonly misunderstood questions about Christmas, and I

644
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: wanted to just tackle, just like rapid fire for a moment, just.

645
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: A couple more of those.

646
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: One of them was was Jesus actually born on December

647
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: twenty fifth, Because I know I've heard a lot of

648
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: different people, even a lot of different theologians, wrestle with

649
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 2: this idea.

650
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and you know, the Bible doesn't tell us

651
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 3: we do not know from the Bible the day of

652
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: the year that he was born. And one of the

653
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: things was early Christians didn't care about birthdays. They didn't

654
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: celebrate birthdays. What's the celebrate you got born? So why

655
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: I mean they used to make fun of the Romans

656
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 3: because the Romans would celebrate birthdays. What the Christians celebrated

657
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: was the date of someone's martyrdom. So if you were

658
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: martyred on a certain date, that date was remembered, but

659
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 3: birthdays weren't remembered. So about over one hundred and fifty

660
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 3: years after the death of Jesus and his resurrection, people

661
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: began to wonder, yeat, what day was he born? Anyway,

662
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: we don't know, why don't we commemorate that? And so Tertullian,

663
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 3: who was an early Tristian leader in the year two

664
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 3: hundred a d. Said, well, let me figure it out. Well,

665
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: here's the thing in early Christianity. I know this sounds

666
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 3: a little weird, but in early Christianity there was a

667
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: very strong connection between creation and redemption. They believed there

668
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 3: was a huge link between those two things, and so

669
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 3: they believed the Messiah would have been conceived on the

670
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 3: same day of the calendar as the day that he

671
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 3: ultimately died. Wow, that's just their belief. So in two

672
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 3: hundred eight, Deetertullian says, well, let me find let me

673
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: figure out the date that Jesus died. So he calculated

674
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 3: based on the calendar, the Roman calendar, of the day,

675
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: that Jesus died on March the twenty fifth. Well, if

676
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 3: he died on March twenty fifth, therefore he had been

677
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: conceived on March the twenty fifth. Well, fast forward nine

678
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: months of gestation, and that gives you a birth on

679
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 3: December the twenty fifth.

680
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: Wow.

681
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 3: And that's what scholars believe may be the reason why

682
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: December twenty fifth became recognized as the birthday of Jesus.

683
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,439
Speaker 3: In fact, interestingly, I found a reference in about the

684
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 3: same time frame written by sexist Julius Africanus. He was

685
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: a very early Christian historian. He kept track of things

686
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 3: that happened, and in his Chronology of Christianity, he actually

687
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 3: listed March twenty fifth as the conception of Jesus. When

688
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary

689
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 3: was March. How would he know that. There's no way

690
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 3: he could have known that except he was trusting what

691
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: Tertullian had figured out. Oh, he died on March twenty fifth,

692
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: therefore he must have been conceived on March of twenty fifth. Yes,

693
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 3: so that's currently the best thinking of scholars as a

694
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 3: major PhD from Yale that documented all this, and I

695
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 3: think it's probably probably makes sense that that's where we

696
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: got December the twenty.

697
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:23,439
Speaker 1: Fifth, that makes sense.

698
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: So whether or not we actually know the truth of this, right,

699
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 2: Christmas December twenty fifth is really the day of remembrance,

700
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: on the day that we celebrate the birth of Jesus,

701
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 2: our coming savior.

702
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: Leah.

703
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 2: Another fun when I got to ask you, is who

704
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: were the magi, right, these wise men that came And

705
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 2: also in hearing that, you know, maybe it wasn't a cave,

706
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: or it maybe wasn't just like this this manger that

707
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: was just random out there with people to come to.

708
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: It was actually in somebody's guest room. Did they actually

709
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: come and really give their respects in these gifts to

710
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 2: this baby Jesus?

711
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: They probably not in that original scene, right, all right?

712
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 3: The mage i were quote Unqung wise men from the east,

713
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: probably Persia, and they were astrologers manage I were not

714
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: well regarded by the Hebrew people of the time. Daniel

715
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 3: call them enchanters. They were involved with some things that

716
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 3: God doesn't really like us to be involved in, things

717
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 3: like astrology and so forth. So they were not very popular.

718
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: But they came to pay homage, maybe at the direction

719
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 3: of a king of the newborn King of the Jews.

720
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 3: How did they know, Well, there was the star of Bethlehem.

721
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 3: What does that mean? The word star in the Greek

722
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: is flexible. It could mean a star, it could mean

723
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 3: a planet, it could mean a comet. It's some celestial

724
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: object of some sort that it's flexible enough. So what

725
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 3: did they see that told them that the King of

726
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 3: the Jews born, Well, we don't know exactly. It was

727
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: not Haley's comment because Haley's comment was in twelve BC.

728
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 3: Jesus was probably born in five or six BC. We

729
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: know that because Herod was still alive when Jesus was born.

730
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: He died in four BC. So Jesus was probably born

731
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 3: in five PC or maybe six PC. So what celestial

732
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: event took place back then? Well, there were a couple

733
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 3: very interesting ones. One was an unusual planetary conjunction of

734
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 3: Jupiter and Saturn. It took place in the constellation of Pisces.

735
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 3: Back then. Now we wouldn't know, we wouldn't notice that.

736
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 3: But these astrologers would have been amazed by that. Raymond Brown,

737
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 3: the great Christian theologian, says that they would have discerned

738
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 3: from where that happened in the heavens, that a ruler,

739
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 3: a Hebrew ruler ultimately of the world, was coming into

740
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 3: existence in the world, and so they began to seek him. Well,

741
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: where do you go to see the King of Jews?

742
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 3: You go to Jerusalem, right, So they go to Jerusalem,

743
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 3: they go to Herod and said, hey, where's the King

744
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 3: of Jews. Herod freaks out, what do you mean. I'm

745
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 3: the King. I don't want some competitor, And so he

746
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 3: gets his people together and says, where's this guy supposed

747
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 3: to be born? And they say, well, Micah five verse two,

748
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 3: five hundred years earlier predicted he'd be born in Bethlehem.

749
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: So Herod says to the Magi, go to Bethlehem, and

750
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 3: so they go, and they see the star again and

751
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 3: it leads them. Interestingly. It says to the child, doesn't

752
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 3: say to the baby, says to the child. So the

753
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 3: child have gotten a little older by then, and so

754
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 3: they pay homage by bringing gold, which represents the royalty

755
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 3: of Jesus, frankincens, which represents the priestly nature of Jesus,

756
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 3: and mrr interestingly, which was used in embalming. As we said,

757
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: Jesus was born to die as a sacrifice for the

758
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 3: sins of humankind, and actually on the cross, Jesus was

759
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 3: offered as a painkiller, a mixture of murder and water.

760
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 3: So they come and they worship. But here's the significance

761
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 3: theologically of this. In their first century Jewish culture, the

762
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: Jews believe that the Messiah who would come would be

763
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 3: a political rescuer. He would rescue them from the oppression

764
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 3: of the Romans and elevate the Jewish nation above other nations.

765
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 3: That's kind of what they thought. The fact that these pagan,

766
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 3: gentile magi came to worship the Christ Child tells us

767
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 3: that he was not just the redeemer of the nation

768
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 3: of Israel, but he's also the redeemer of the world

769
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: for everybody, even these, even these magi who were gentiles,

770
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 3: they had come to worship. So salvation is for everyone

771
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 3: who comes to Jesus. In repentance and faith that I

772
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 3: think is the big significance of the magi coming.

773
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 2: It's amazing to hear just all these different questions that again,

774
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: you bring some clarity to. In chapter five of the

775
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 2: Case for Christmas. I loved reading through it, right, even

776
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: a question on Santa Claus, who the real Santa Clauz

777
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: is Xmas?

778
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: And more.

779
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 2: But I think really what I wanted to highlight here

780
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: as we kind of wrap up our conversation together, my

781
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: friend is again who this baby named Jesus really was.

782
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 2: In Matthew sixteen and Mark chapter eight and Luke chapter nine,

783
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: there's this account that Jesus asks his disciples, who do

784
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: you say that I am? Up to that point, a

785
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: lot of people were saying a lot of different things, right,

786
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: Maybe he's a prophet, maybe he's Elijah. All of these

787
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: different things are going around about this guy who's performing miracles.

788
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: Nobody quite understood who he was. And I'll never forget

789
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 2: lee years ago, I was sitting in church a pastor,

790
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: I think it was around Easter time. A pastor was

791
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: giving a message and he said this, He proclaimed this

792
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 2: beautiful depiction of who Jesus was. But then he said

793
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: it matters not who I say that he is. What

794
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 2: matters most is who you say that he is. Lee

795
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: What I would love to kind of ask you as

796
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: we near the end here is who is that baby

797
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: in a manger? And who is this person of Jesus.

798
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 3: Well, let's go to him and see what he says.

799
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 3: He got up before a group of people in John ten,

800
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 3: verse thirty, and he says, I and the Father are one,

801
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: and the Greek word for one there is not masculine

802
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 3: as a neuter, which means Jesus was not saying I

803
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 3: and the Father are the same person. He was saying,

804
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: I and the Father are the same thing. We're one

805
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 3: in nature, we're one in essence. And the audience understood

806
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 3: what he was saying. They picked up stones to kill

807
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 3: him because they say, they said, you, you're just a man.

808
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 3: You're claiming to be God. So Jesus made the claim

809
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 3: that he is the unique son of God, and that

810
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 3: is the Christ Child, that is the child we worship

811
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 3: on Christmas, having entered into human history. In fact, i'd

812
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 3: encourage your viewers and listeners to go to Philippians chapter two,

813
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 3: and that may be the first Christmas carol. It's apparently

814
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: from a hymn from the earliest days of Christianity, and

815
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 3: it describes how Jesus, being God and having all the

816
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: perks of heaven, he didn't cling to that because there

817
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 3: was a mission for him to accomplish, and so he

818
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 3: kind of sets aside the perks that he has as

819
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 3: the creator of the cosmos. He's kind of sets out aside,

820
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: and he comes into our world and he ends up

821
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 3: dying this this horrible death on the cross to pay

822
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 3: the penalty for our sins so that we could spend

823
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: eternity with him in heaven. And that's a beautiful reading

824
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 3: of maybe the first Christmas hymn, Christmas Carol. It's called

825
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 3: the Kenosis in Greek. It is the incarnation, which is

826
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 3: mind boggling. The infinite God becomes finite, the eternal God

827
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 3: becomes time bound, the creator of all comes into his creation.

828
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 3: I mean, this is this is you know what I like.

829
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 3: Somebody once said this, and I think this is so true.

830
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: The best stories are the ones that turn out to

831
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 3: be true, and this one is true, and that's what

832
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 3: makes their best story.

833
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: You know.

834
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 3: We can make up all kinds of fanciful stories and

835
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 3: they're fun and intriguing and inspiring. But the best stories

836
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 3: are true, like this one.

837
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 2: The best stories are true, Lee, I want to close

838
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 2: this way. It's how I wrap up every episode. I

839
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: just think about people during the Christmas season. Yes, it's

840
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 2: one of magic, it's one of joy, the lights, the music,

841
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: so many things that we know and love. But there's

842
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: a lot of people out there who are hurting with

843
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: a heavy heart. It's often the time where some wounds,

844
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: grief and mourning, they actually get exacerbated around these times,

845
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: the holidays, anniversaries and so much more. I'm thinking about

846
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 2: somebody who's listening today, who maybe is experiencing disappointment, discouragement, despair,

847
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 2: maybe even still a lack of certainty, and who this

848
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: Jesus is.

849
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: I know this.

850
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: You spend a lot of time with Lewis Palau as

851
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 2: you wrote the book The Case for Heaven, But then

852
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: also as you've written Seeing the Supernatural, and you've studied

853
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: near death experiences, when you know the certainty of Jesus is,

854
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: who that baby was in the manger, the life that

855
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 2: he lived, the substitutionary death he died in our place,

856
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: rising again so that we might spend eternal life with

857
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 2: him give us one final pressing word, especially to that

858
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: person out there listening today with the discouraged and weary heart,

859
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: as to what the hope of heaven really means.

860
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're going through that this Christmas season and

861
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 3: it does tend to bring those feelings to the surface,

862
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: I would say, don't picture Christmas as being about a

863
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 3: baby in a manger. Think about Christmas as being that baby.

864
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: Is not just a helpless child born into this world.

865
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 3: This is the creator of all who loves you so

866
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 3: much that he gave up the perks of heaven to

867
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 3: come into our world so that you could know him personally,

868
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 3: and so you can receive forgiveness through him and have

869
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 3: the doors of Heaven flung open for you someday. Picture

870
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 3: him as you're the one who loves you, the one

871
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 3: who wants to extend grace to you. And I hope

872
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 3: that this Sunday you'll go to church, you know, find

873
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: people who will love you and who also love this Jesus.

874
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 3: And I think sometimes when we feel hurt and we

875
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: feel disappointed, we tend to get isolated. Don't be isolated

876
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 3: this Christmas. Go to a local church and meet some

877
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 3: people who will love you as they do. Love the Savior.

878
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 2: Lee, my friend, just thank you for not just sharing

879
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: your expertise, but your story, your heart, your passion for truth.

880
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: The case for Christmas. It's more than a book. It's

881
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 2: an invitation for people to move beyond nostalgia and sentimentality

882
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: and to truly investigate the most important claim in history

883
00:45:54,239 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: that God became flesh and dwelt among us. Listrobo, my friend, again,

884
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 2: you are a gift, You're a blessing. Thank you for

885
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: everything that you continually do and the impact you continually

886
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 2: have on my life.

887
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: Marry Christmas to you and yours. We love and appreciate you,

888
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: my friend.

889
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 3: Thank you as we text and say, I appreciate you,

890
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 3: Zach and all your listeners, and I hope everyone just says.

891
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 2: A great Christmas to all of our listeners, whether you're

892
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 2: exploring faith, strengthening your faith, or maybe sharing your faith.

893
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 2: This conversation reminds us that Christianity is not built on

894
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 2: blind belief, but on a confident hope grounded in evidence, history,

895
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 2: and the life changing power of Jesus Christ. This Christmas,

896
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 2: may you rediscover the wonder of the Major and the

897
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: one who stepped into it. For you. Thank you for

898
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: joining us today. I'm doctor Zach Clinton. This is the

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00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 2: Built Different Podcast. Until next time, stay grateful, stay grounded,

900
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: and remember you were made to be Built different.

901
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 3: Merry Christmas, my friends,