1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 2: When we hear about a leadership failure, it often sounds sudden, 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: a headline, a resignation, a fall from favor that seems 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: to come out of nowhere. But those moments rarely begin 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: in a single instant. More often, they begin quietly with 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: small shifts in the heart, a little drift away from 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: attentiveness to God, a little more confidence in our own strength, 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: pace of life that slowly crowds out the deeper work 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 2: of abiding, and over time the little drift grows and 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 2: becomes visible. Hello friends, I'm Alan Faddling and you're listening 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: to the Unhurried Living Podcast, where we inspire you to 12 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. Today, I'll be 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: talking with Peter Greer, president of Hope International and co 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: author of the new book How Leaders Lose Their Way. Together, 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: we explore why even sincere leaders can gradually drift from 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: their calling and what helps us stay close to Jesus 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: and finish well. After a word from our sponsor, I'll 18 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 2: dive into my conversation with Peter Greer. Welcome back to 19 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: the Unhurried Living Podcast. As you're listening today, I'd love 20 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: for you to follow the podcast wherever it is that 21 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: you listen, and if you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe. 22 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: It's free and it helps unhurried living be discovered by 23 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: more people who are longing to rest deeper, live fuller, 24 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: and lead better. Now, today's conversation touches on something every 25 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: leader eventually faces, though we don't always recognize it at first. 26 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: It's the quiet reality of drift. Leadership failures rarely begin 27 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 2: with dramatic, one time decisions. More often they begin with 28 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: small compromises, hurried souls, and a gradual distancing from the 29 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: presence of God. My guest today is Peter Greer, President 30 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: and CEO of Hope International, a global organization focused on 31 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: Christ centered economic development. He's also the author or co 32 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: author of several books on leadership and faith, including Mission 33 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: Drift and the one we're talking about today, How Leaders 34 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 2: Lose their Way. In our conversation, Peter and I talk 35 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: about why leaders drift, why the story of Solomon in 36 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 2: the Bible offers such a revealing mirror for leadership today, 37 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: and how practices of abiding in Christ help us stay 38 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 2: rooted and finish well. Now, let's dive into my conversation 39 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: with Peter Greer. Well, Peter It is such a treat 40 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: to have this time together to talk about your new book, 41 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: How Leaders Lose Their Way. 42 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: Welcome, Thank you Allen. Great to be with you. 43 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: Yes, well, you know, many of our leaders, our listeners 44 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 2: are leaders, some of them in the organizational settings, others 45 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 2: just in their way of life and such, and I 46 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: think many of them wonder about or even struggle with 47 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: the possibility that leaders slowly sometimes lose their way. And 48 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: you've written about this. Can you say a little bit 49 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: about how it is that leaders sometimes do exactly that? 50 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: Now, well, you captured the origin story of why we 51 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: wrote this book. It's a look around and you read 52 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: these stories of leaders that you've looked up to, leaders 53 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: that you've read their material, Leaders that you're like, no 54 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: way they would do that, And you can't help but 55 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: have that happen, not once, not twice, but multiple times 56 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: before you start asking a different question, not how did 57 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: they do that? But Lord, help me show me where 58 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: I am on a similar path, because I don't want 59 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: that to be the path that I am on. And 60 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: there's one study that found that one in three leaders 61 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: in scripture finish well, only one in three, And the 62 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: conclusion is actually similar the author writes that he thinks 63 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: it's probably similar today that only one in three finish well, 64 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: meaning that they don't fizzle out, they don't burn out, 65 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: they don't lose their way by abusing their power, platform 66 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: or privilege. And to me that was so sobering and 67 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: so statistically it is easier to lose your way than 68 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: it is to be marked by that long term obedience 69 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: in the same direction. So then the question is why 70 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: does it happen? And maybe a better question, why does 71 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: it keep happening? And then maybe even better question and 72 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: what can we do so that we are on a 73 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: different path. So that was the course of study, and 74 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for leaders who shared their story with 75 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: us with courageous vulnerability and invited us to say, this 76 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: is where I went wrong, go in a different direction. 77 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: Wow. Well, I mean, like you, I think about this too. 78 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: I've been in vocational ministry for a little over forty years, 79 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 2: and so yeah, I could tell stories about other people, 80 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: but I can also see in my own forty years 81 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: of life and leadership some critical moments where I think 82 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: I was drifting, but thankfully God brought someone along my 83 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: path or something happened that the drift didn't go too far. 84 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: I wonder if you can talk about maybe some of 85 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 2: the early signs for leaders that something is beginning to 86 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 2: shift or drift in their life and leadership. 87 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and please hear me, like there is zero judgment 88 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: in terms of like the him come the fen a 89 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: very blessing as this line that I absolutely love and 90 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: it says prone to wander, Lord, I feel it prone 91 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: to leave the God I love and to me that 92 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: actually is the starting point is just realizing that you 93 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: and I could drift, not just that you and I 94 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: are drifting. And I think the only difference is whether 95 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: we realize it and whether doing micro course corrections or 96 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: ignoring it. And then someday way down the line asking 97 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: a question of how did I get here? And the 98 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: answer is going to be small compromises compounded by time. 99 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: And so I think the key issue is like just 100 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: this assumption we're all drifting. Lord, search me, Lord, know me, 101 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: show me where I'm drifting, and lead me in a 102 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: different way, lead me back to you. So that was 103 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: really the spirit. And so what are some of the 104 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: hallmarks to your question? What are some of the signs 105 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: some of the warning signs There are so many and 106 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: the commonality of story broke my heart. But one thing 107 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: is related to what we were just talking about. I 108 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: never thought it would happen to me. That was a 109 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: constant refrain. This happens to others, but this isn't going 110 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: to happen to me, and I would say that is 111 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: a dangerous, dangerous belief. Number two is inattentiveness to small compromises, 112 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: believing like the rules apply to others, but maybe there's 113 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: a little bit of exceptionalism for me, and that's a 114 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: danger danger warning. Side Number three isolation. There's just no 115 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: one who really knows what's going on, And the question 116 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: is who are those people? It's only got to be 117 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: a few, But who are the people that there literally 118 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: is no topic off limits. There literally is nothing that 119 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: you could not share and know that they would immediately 120 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: respond with love, care, and compassion and sometimes a smack 121 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: upside the head if that's what's required as well. But 122 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: who are the people that are in our lives? And 123 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: I could go on, But a lot of it is 124 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: like attitudes that are upstreamed from actions, and attitudes that 125 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: we justify as being no big deal. But the biggest 126 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: conclusion is that those attitudes actually are a very big 127 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: deal when compounded by time. 128 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: M Yeah, I'm really I'm really struck by your your 129 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: your talk about those little compromises. There's little compromise, just 130 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: little they're they're not that big a deal. What's the problem. 131 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: But it's the compounding part, you know. I think you 132 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: use the image of if you're just a degree off course, sure, 133 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: that doesn't make any difference in twenty yards or one 134 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 2: hundred yards, but start multiplying that by miles. Now you've 135 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 2: ended up in a very different place than you intended 136 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: to be. 137 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. And so to me, then that gets 138 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: to so where am I one or two degrees off? 139 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: Because that is the easiest time to course correct. And 140 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: I think about another analogy. But you know, in the 141 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: back of our house, we had this weed tree and 142 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: we just ignored it, and it just kept growing, and 143 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: it kept growing. By the time we finally addressed it, 144 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: it took multiple neighbors, like over a course of two 145 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: days to deal with this weed tree. And what would 146 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: have happened if three years ago we would have gone out. 147 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: How long would it have taken us to deal with that? 148 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: And what broke my heart was the hearing the stories 149 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: of leaders who significantly lost their way and saying I 150 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: just didn't pay attention. I just ignored it. And when 151 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: you ignore something, it doesn't go away on its own. 152 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: It only gets more significant, It gets more of a 153 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: hole that weed tree starts to take over. And so 154 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: I think for the takeaway for us is like, let's 155 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: be people who do the weeding. Let's have a high 156 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: sensitivity to the small compromises. Let's have a high sensitivity 157 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: to when we're getting off track, and let's do the 158 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: work in those moments. Because if we ignore it, the 159 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: longer we ignore it. My guess is we all have 160 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: seen this like the it just it doesn't go away 161 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: on its own. It only gets more power, and then 162 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: that makes it more difficult to address, it makes us 163 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: more difficult to share about it with others. And so 164 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: I think that attentiveness to small issues is really one 165 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: of the major major pieces that I've tried to practice 166 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: in my own life after hearing some of these stories. 167 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: And whatever the discomfort, whatever the challenge of sharing or 168 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: connecting or whatever it is, I guarantee that it's less 169 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: painful than ignoring it and then having to deal with it. 170 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: Two or three years down the line. 171 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: After the break, I'll continue my conversation with Peter Greer. Yeah, 172 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I hear you saying that today. I mean 173 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: the biblical line that comes to my mind is today 174 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: is the day of salvation. You know, It's like today 175 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: is a much easier day of salvation than a year 176 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: from now or five or longer, and it will never 177 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: be easier. If that's the right language, then to address 178 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: where you are today and start in a new direction, 179 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: if that's what's needed. It also strikes me that what 180 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: you're saying is there's a kind of holy mundaneness to 181 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: our lives, the everydayness of our journey with God. And 182 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: sometimes I think leaders think that all the stuff in 183 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: their leadership life are the big, headline making things. But 184 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: what I hear you saying is often it's those hidden realities. 185 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 2: They're small, they seem inconsequential, they may be really critical 186 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: over time. 187 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: Over time, Alan, I feel like we should have had 188 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: this conversation before the book came out. I would quote 189 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: you in a couple areas here, but that is the conclusion. 190 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: That is absolutely the conclusion. And my co author Jill Heisei, 191 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: she said this, She said, I didn't realize that we 192 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: started out writing a book on the daily disciplines, and 193 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: we didn't like, that's not where we started. But you 194 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: read these stories and again this was the piece you 195 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: pull the thread. When someone would share their story and 196 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: they would say, all of a sudden, I fill in 197 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: the blank. It was never true that it was all 198 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: of a sudden. If you pulled that thread, it was 199 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: small compromises compounded by time. And then the antidote is 200 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: exactly the opposite, what are you doing today in the 201 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: small micro course corrections. And again my premise is that 202 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: we're all drifting. We all need those redirections on the 203 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: regular basis, and that's where we overestimate kind of these 204 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: big moments and we underestimate the slow character formation. That 205 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: is what did you and I do today? And this 206 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: is why it's so hard to spot because the reality 207 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: is it doesn't make a difference today if I use 208 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 1: dental floss or not, like one day, not going to 209 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: make a big deal. But the pattern that I establish 210 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: is going to be a very different dentist visit to 211 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: years from now based on the daily habits and actions 212 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: that I think this similar way. It matters. It matters 213 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: what you and I do today. It matters more than 214 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: we realize in the character formation and in the trajectory 215 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: of our lives. 216 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: That's so true. Well, so yeah. One of the through 217 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: lines of the book is you've you've investigated the life 218 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: of Solomon as perhaps a model of this reality, this drift. 219 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: So can you tell me something about how Solomon is 220 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: a kind of maybe mirror for us as leaders today 221 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 2: to look at ourselves. 222 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: Oh, there's so much. And I mean, if you think 223 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: of the life of King Solomon, he started out by 224 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: having a clear command from someone who knew a thing 225 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: or two about drifting, from his father, David, who literally 226 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: sat him down and said, my son, obey all the commands, 227 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: all the precepts of the Lord, like don't drift. You 228 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: can almost hear him imploring and pleading, look at what 229 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: happened in my life. I lost my way. Don't do it. 230 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: And then Solomon starts out in such a beautiful posture 231 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: of humility, when God says, what would you like, and 232 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: Solomon says, wisdom, for who by himself is able to 233 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: govern this great people of yours. He starts out with this, 234 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: I can't do this. What a statement of humility, What 235 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: a statement of dependency, and what a statement of understanding. 236 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: It wasn't his people. He was the steward of the role, 237 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: but it was actually this great people of yours. He 238 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: understood his role. And then what happens alan He gets 239 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: successful in everything that he does, and the humility that 240 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: he starts with is replaced by hubris, and it leads 241 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: to the utter humiliation for himself, for his family, and 242 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: for his nation. But the thing that is so striking 243 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: about King Solomon is that we have his writings in 244 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: so many different ways, and in the Book of Proverbs, 245 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: we realize that Solomon knew what to do, just didn't 246 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: do it. You literally read in the Book of Proverbs 247 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: all of these incredibly wise, wise things that are all 248 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: about protecting your heart, are all about keeping on track, 249 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: are all about making sure that you trust in the 250 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: Lord with all of your heart. And then you compare 251 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: it to his life, and you see a slow and 252 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: gradual but it accelerates and by the time Solomon ends. 253 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: Tim Mack in the Bible Project says, by the time 254 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: he dies, Solomon resembles Pharaoh more than he does his 255 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: father David. Like he literally completely abandoned God. He literally 256 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: abandoned everything, and that humility was replaced by an arrogance 257 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: in hubris that was the complete antithesis of how we started. 258 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: And again, the piece for me and the relevance for 259 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: me is if we were to sit down, Alan, I 260 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: guarantee we could do it, You and I blank piece 261 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: of paper, and we would say, how do we prevent 262 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: drift from happening in our life? We would come up 263 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: with a great list, and my guess is we would 264 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: get some really important things. But the question is not 265 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: knowing it. The question is connecting it to the way 266 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: that we live today. And for King Solomon and for us, 267 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: the more the time goes on, it's easy to have 268 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: a growing gap between what we know is wise and 269 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: what we live. And that exceptionalism were justifying mity, compromises, 270 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: that that justification that doesn't really apply to me. Those 271 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: are dangerous attitudes that lead to a different destination. And 272 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: so I think that's why King Solomon is such a 273 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: sober aware, like case study. He knew it, he just 274 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: didn't do it. And I think that's danger for you 275 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: and me too. Do we know more than we do? 276 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: Do we know in our head? More than we live 277 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: out in our lives, and the bigger that gap, we 278 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: are in a dangerous position. 279 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, that is so true. One of the things 280 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: you said, and I've found this true for me too, 281 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 2: is moments of perceived success have been some of my 282 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 2: most dangerous moments. I somehow have imagined that my success 283 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: sort of makes everything else unimportant, Like haven't I proven 284 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 2: that I'm faithful and I'm doing good work? Look at 285 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: this success, however it is. I'm happening to measure it 286 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: at the moment. So I think we get all measure 287 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: moments that feel successful. Those maybe the moments we most 288 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 2: need to remain awake. 289 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: Wow. I had one friend tell me success is much 290 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: more spiritually dangerous than failure, and oh, Alan, we heard 291 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: stories that would not be appropriate for me to share, 292 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: but it was like, after these mountaintop moment experiences, breakthroughs, 293 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: a ministry, church celebrations that say some of the most 294 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: unwise decisions were made, and it was like, how does 295 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: this happen? And I think it's because our guard goes down. 296 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: I think it's because we allow an attitude of I 297 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: deserve this to start seeping in entitlement. I deserve this 298 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: or I don't need to be on my guard. And 299 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right. In moments of success, that 300 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: is a moment more so to get down on her 301 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: knees and say, Lord help. That is the moment to 302 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: get out of the way and say anything good that happens. 303 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: Pride and ego have no room. What do I have 304 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: that you have not graciously given to me? It's not 305 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: about my name, it's about yours. And I think the 306 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: way that we handle success is how we address moments 307 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: of unsuspecting vulnerability in those moments of great kind of 308 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: ministry breakthrough or that. I think that's a wise, wise word. 309 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 2: Alan, that's so important. So you know, back maybe back 310 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: to Solomon. I mean, we've got his story, we've got 311 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: his insights from a number of chapters of his life 312 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 2: in various biblical books. I wonder, as you think about him, 313 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: what might have been some of the early subtle shifts 314 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: that led him off course? Like he started in some 315 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 2: ways so well, with so much good counsel and so 316 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: much great intention. 317 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, there's one that immediately jumps to mind, and 318 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: it actually is the difference between his father's story and 319 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: his story. His father David made a mess of things, 320 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: and Nathan the prophet came and told him a story 321 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 1: and said, you are that man. Joe abb his commander, said, David, 322 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: that's not a good idea. The census, that's not a 323 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 1: good idea. He had a friend named Jonathan who walked 324 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: with him, and you know, that was a real friendship. 325 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: And then you compare that to the life of Solomon. 326 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: How many times did anyone challenge or confront King Solomon. 327 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: King Solomon wrote, wounds from a friend can be trusted. 328 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: And yet you look at his life and this is 329 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: one more example where what he knew to be true 330 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: was mismatched with the life that he lived. There's zero 331 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: instances where anyone challenged his authority. Zero. And so the 332 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: question for me is who in my life is a 333 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: friend who is good enough, who's willing to inflict a 334 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: few wounds, who's willing to look at me in my 335 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: eyes and say, hey, Peter, you're going the wrong way. 336 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: Hey Peter, that's a really dumb idea. Hey Peter, that 337 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: really sounded arrogant what you just shared, Like, how do 338 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: we pay attention to the friends in our life? And 339 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: I think that's where the life of King David led 340 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: to repentance and return, and the life of King Solomon 341 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: went unchallenged to a place of totally walking away from God. 342 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: So I think that's again ancient story, but it's the 343 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,239 Speaker 1: same thing. Who in our life knows us enough is 344 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: not on the payroll. Who in our life cares about 345 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: us enough to inflict a few wounds? And if we 346 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: can't think of the last time someone inflicted a few wounds, 347 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: I think it might be time for us to explore 348 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: the depth of our friendships and invitations, and to have 349 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: those core group of friends that we're going to do 350 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: life with with full invitation to tell us when and 351 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: where we're going off track. And Allen, if I could 352 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: do one more kind of key, I look at the 353 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: life of King Solomon and his accomplishments. He had one gear, 354 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: and it was just the next accomplishment, the next trade, 355 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: the next conquest, the next building, the next And I 356 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: know someone who wrote a book about how important paces 357 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: and how important it is to actually get out of 358 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: that red zone. And I look at the life of 359 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: King Solomon, and I don't think he ever slowed down. 360 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: I don't think he ever prayed the prayer that his father, 361 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: David prayed of search me, Lord know me, show me 362 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: where I'm going off track? And I think the other 363 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: piece is he had a pace that I think did 364 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: not allow reflection. And again, this is not pointing to 365 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,239 Speaker 1: King Solomon. This is pointing to my own heart. And 366 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: so what does it look like to give time and 367 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: pace in place, to slow down enough and to actually 368 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: ask for me? It's a different prayer. It's not shown 369 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: me if there's any offensive way in to me. It's like, 370 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: show me where is Show me where I'm going off track? 371 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: Because I'm pretty sure I got some things. Lord, would you, 372 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: in your grace show me where I need a course correction? 373 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: Well, so a connection I'm making as you sort of unpacked. 374 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: That is. 375 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: We talked earlier about the unique temptation of success. One 376 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: of the elements of that is when you're in a 377 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 2: season of success, you're not going to stop. You don't 378 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 2: want to lose momentum. I mean, you've got so many 379 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: great rationales for and so if you've got this season 380 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 2: where everyone seems to like you or everything seems to 381 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 2: be going your way, the last thing you want to 382 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 2: do is stop. 383 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: Don't you think you know it well? Said, well, said right, yeah, yeah. 384 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: Well so yes, you talked in one of the chapters about, 385 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 2: you know, the tendency for speed. I wonder if you 386 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: can think out loud a little more, kind of maybe intersecting, 387 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,719 Speaker 2: you know, message that matters a lot to us. This 388 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 2: unhurried pace of Jesus. We think it's genius, you know. 389 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: We think he got more done in his three years 390 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 2: than I've done in forty and his three still last 391 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 2: two thousand years later. I just think that's pretty amazing. 392 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: And you're talking about this this subtle shift or drift 393 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: that can happen over time. How to say more, maybe 394 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 2: about this need for speed and this tendency for drif. 395 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so the one of the fun parts 396 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: of writing this book was we were looking at just different, 397 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: different analogies, right like what connects. And my friend was 398 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: hearing about the kind of just the pace, and he said, 399 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: in my car, when I have it in sport mode, 400 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: the dash totally blacks out because the manufacturers of this 401 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: car know that my attention has to be on one thing, 402 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: and one thing only a small window. You are not 403 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: looking at the dashboard, let alone, you're not looking at 404 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: the person to your right. You're not looking at the 405 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: people in the backseat, you're not looking at the scenery. 406 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: You are only looking at one thing, and it's what's 407 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: right in front of you. And so, of course, the 408 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: only thing that I could say is can we go 409 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: for a ride? Because your car sounds different than my car, 410 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: that sounds like a little different from our family vehicle. 411 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: And it's true, you're going at such a speed. He 412 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: took me to a safe spot, and I mean, your 413 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: focus it's only on this tiny window right in front 414 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: of you. And I think that's to me. One of 415 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: the pieces that surprised me is people who lost their way. 416 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: They didn't realize the impact on the people that were 417 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: all around them, not just in the moment, but in 418 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: the build up, because it had been so long until 419 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: they had said, I'm going to get out of sport mode. 420 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: I'm going to get in cruise mode, and I'm going 421 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: to look to my right and say, what's the impact 422 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: of how I'm living and leading on you? Right now? 423 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: They're going to get in a different mode and they're 424 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: going to park the car and they're going to open 425 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: up their Bible and they're going to say, Lord, show 426 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: me what it looks like to learn more about you today, 427 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: like you don't have those moments in sport mode. And 428 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: I think that no one has done a better job 429 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: than you at thinking through the importance of learning about 430 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: the pace of Jesus and having a different pace, inviting 431 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: us to a different pace of how we lead. And again, 432 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: the great irony is that does not diminish our impact, 433 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: that enhances it. And I would say there is such 434 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: a clear connection between leaders who lost their way and 435 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: the pace with which they lived. They just didn't ever 436 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 1: get to a different gear to consider where am I 437 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: having some cracks in my character? Where am I going 438 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: off track? Where am I compromising? Where am I not 439 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: even looking at the bigger picture because I'm so hyper 440 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: focused on this what's right in front of me? And 441 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: so yeah, pace matters if we want to live and 442 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: lead well, as you've written so compellingly. 443 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: Well, that is so important. I appreciate that. And maybe 444 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: this kind of takes us to Jesus in John fifteen 445 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 2: in some ways, maybe one way of talking about antidote 446 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: to drift is the invitation to abide, to stay on track, 447 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 2: to stay rooted in place. And so he says abide 448 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 2: in me, and apart from me, you can do nothing. 449 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 2: Maybe in your experience, what helps leaders stay in that 450 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: mode regardless of failure's success, huge opportunities, unimpressive opportunities, whatever, 451 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: it is, what helps leaders work with Jesus instead of 452 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 2: sort of that crazy working for him mode that we 453 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 2: can find ourselves in noew. 454 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: You know, one piece that we kind of stumbled upon 455 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: was the leaders who did finish well. There was consistent 456 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: patterns of those who lost their way, and there were 457 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: consistent patterns of those who had that long obedience in 458 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: the same direction. And one of the surprising ones is 459 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: the individuals that we either read about or interviewed late 460 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,120 Speaker 1: in life that they were marked by a posture of 461 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: common service and not believing that any task was below 462 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: them or beneath them. And I remember, you know, stories 463 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: of people who early in the morning would shine shoes 464 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: with no one knowing it when they were be traveling, 465 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: or individuals that would be taking out the trash er, 466 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: and so this idea of clean the latrine. They were 467 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: just marked by lives of service. And what I found 468 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: so interesting is that is also the pattern of Jesus. 469 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 1: I always thought about this servant leadership model as something 470 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: that is good for the organization, good for those you serve, 471 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: good for that. But I've come to realize, you know, 472 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: the primary beneficiary of servant leadership, it's your own heart. 473 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: It's your own heart. It's like, if you have power, ego, pride, 474 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: that just start slowly choking out love and service. That 475 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: is a very dangerous thing. And so I think part 476 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: of the way out is the ancient path of Jesus. 477 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: And I don't think it's the equivalent of washing feet. 478 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: Some church traditions still have that, but I think the 479 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: principle is absolutely what are those tasks that in today's life, 480 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: in today's world are seen as a little bit beneath 481 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,959 Speaker 1: your title and position. Yes, and go and do that. 482 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: Go and do that today, not tomorrow. Go and do 483 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: that today. Find some activity, Go take out the trash, 484 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: Go find something that is other people are supposed to 485 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: do that. And my guess is, yes, it's true, it'll 486 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: make an impact in your organization, but the biggest impact 487 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: is going to be your own heart. It's going to 488 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: be one small way of having a check on pride 489 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: and arrogance and ego. And we need that, We need 490 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: that in our lives. 491 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: Our souls so desperately need that kind of grounded and 492 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: especially when it's done in such a way that no 493 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: one will ever know that we did that thing, whatever 494 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: it was, act of service. 495 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: It is a small example, yeah, totally small example. But 496 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: as we looked at certain monastic communities, it was so 497 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: interesting to me that prayer, yeah that makes sense, like worship, 498 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: yeah that makes sense. But they also had these regular 499 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: habits and patterns of doing the mundane, regular habits and 500 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: patterns of doing the service. And that is not only 501 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: for the functioning of their institution, it also is for 502 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: the spiritual formation of the heart. And I just started 503 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: to look at that in a little different light of 504 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: just how much I need those simple acts of regular service, 505 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: little fanfare, and yeah, it in some ways and shape 506 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: our hearts. 507 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: That's so good. So little earlier we were talking about 508 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: how so much of the remedy or the antecdote for 509 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: this tendency to drift is mundane. It's maybe hidden, it's 510 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: likely daily. I wonder as you think about, you know, 511 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: spiritual practices. Of course we get a list of catalog 512 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 2: of potential spiritual practices, but can you think out loud 513 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 2: about some spiritual practices that have seemed to be especially 514 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 2: important to help address this tendency for drift. 515 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the question, Alan, and in some ways 516 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: this is going to be the most maybe not inspiring answer, 517 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: But it's the basic things that have been around. 518 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: Right, you mean it's not some secretive you know, proprietary. 519 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I got nothing secret, nothing proprietary. 520 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: But we can go back to the way of Jesus. 521 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: And I think as it relates to that other, when 522 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: was the last time there's a little bit of stillness 523 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: and silence for our soul? When was the last time 524 00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: we had that? In the pattern that we see in 525 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: scripture is one out of seven And I do believe 526 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: devices and the pace with which we live we need 527 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: it more, not less. And if you cannot remember the 528 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: last time you are physically absent from your phone or screen, 529 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: your soul might be crying out to be nurtured in 530 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: another way. So silence and stillness matter, and the other 531 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: fasting and confession we kind of lost them on the way. 532 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: But there's something powerful about having a break from something 533 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: physical to drive us to the spiritual. And that was 534 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: not part of my life for most of my life. 535 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: And it's pretty powerful fasting and confession. And there's something 536 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: freeing about just naming you know that. Really I did 537 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: not handle that well. Lord be merciful, Lord be gracious, 538 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: and his mercies knew every morning. It is the most 539 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: amazing thing, amazing grace, how sweet the sound there is forgiveness. 540 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: But there is freedom confession as well, And so I'd 541 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: say fasting and confession matter. The silence and stillness. Fasting 542 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: and confession. Again, these are not new ideas. And then 543 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: maybe just one other is friendship. So many of these 544 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: issues are accelerated when we feel isolated and alone. And 545 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: I think we have had enough of the digital, sugary, 546 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: sweet form of friendship and it's time to get back 547 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: to the old fashioned kind of actually being with a 548 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: person together and going on a walk and having a meal. 549 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: And my guess is for a lot of leaders that 550 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: are probably listening to this podcast, we do. We have 551 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: a lot of time with people. But if it's always 552 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: for the task, if it's always to the destination, if 553 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: it's not the walk of friendship, that's a different type. 554 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: And we need not just time with employees and colleagues. 555 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: We need time with people who are totally disconnected to 556 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: do life together. And so I would say friendship is 557 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: one of the most amazing gifts. Friendship and community amazing 558 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: gifts that I think we have to work hard at 559 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: to keep, to maintain, to establish in our lives as well. 560 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: So and again nothing new, right, those are all but no, 561 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: they matter And the question is not do we know 562 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: those things matter? But are they reflected in how we 563 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: have lived today? You know? 564 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 2: And it strikes me as you list those familiar practices, 565 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: I think at least for some leaders, they do not 566 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: see a one to one correspondence between those practices and 567 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: the success of their leadership. You know, to use Dallas 568 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: Willard's insight that it's a very indirect relationship, but I 569 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 2: was back. 570 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: On that Alan, I think is very direct. But the 571 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: time horizon is long. It's a direct in this work term, 572 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: but it is absolutely direct in the long term. 573 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 2: Oh, that's very well said. And maybe that's like the 574 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 2: farmer who plants the seed. You know, he doesn't get 575 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: an avocado the next day. It's going to be years 576 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 2: before that becomes a tree that can bear an avocado. 577 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 2: So I love the insight that it's a long term reality. 578 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,720 Speaker 2: The last thing, and this just has come to my mind. 579 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 2: It strikes me that some of us, anyway, in our 580 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: organizational leadership, have arranged our leadership structures in a way 581 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 2: that don't help us in terms of this tendency to drift, 582 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: you know, this tendency perhaps to put ourselves at the 583 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 2: top of a pyramid with really no peers, with really 584 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 2: no partners. And biblically, you think of someone like Paul, 585 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 2: he's always talking about Timothy or a Tickicus or somebody 586 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 2: else who was alongside him. I wonder if you can 587 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: just think out loud about some of the organizational. 588 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: Implications, Oh so good. And that was one of the 589 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: unexpected things that we found as a consistent theme in 590 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: those that did finish well was they had a preoccupation 591 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: by who comes next. They had a preoccupation with thinking 592 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: beyond their time and tenure. And I think the part 593 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: of the contributing factor is that we act as if 594 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: we're going to be in a role forever. We act 595 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: as if we're the only person that can do this role. 596 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: We act as if the organization needs only us to 597 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: do this role. And that sounds silly to say, but 598 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: it might be a little bit the closer to reality 599 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: and how we live and so what are you doing 600 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: to pour into the next And yeah, I know what 601 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: some people are thinking. But if I do that, what 602 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: happens if they take my spot? What happens if if 603 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: then I'm not needed anymore? I would say, congratulations, you 604 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: just graduated. 605 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 2: And done well. 606 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: Yes, well done. But I think it's so hard to 607 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: think beyond ourselves because there's a lot happening right now, 608 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: and there's a lot happening today, and and I think 609 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: the leaders who last though, they really do have a 610 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: preoccupation and a timeline that extends beyond themselves. And I 611 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: think for me, one of the real practical ways that 612 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: that just came in is just this literally believing. And 613 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: sometimes I even introduce myself I am the interim CEO 614 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: of Hope International, and that kind of raises Cybro, like 615 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: what I didn't know you were leaving? No, No, I'm interim, 616 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: And guess what you are too. We are all interim 617 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: in our role. And I think that is one of 618 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: the other hallmarks, because it just the more we can 619 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: believe that we're not the star of the show, the 620 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: more that we can believe that it's not about us 621 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: the better we are equipped the love, to serve, to invest, 622 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: and ironically to build much healthier organizations that are going 623 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 1: to outlast any one particular leader. 624 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: That's so well said. Well, so, as we come to 625 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 2: a close here to our conversation, maybe there's a listener 626 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,959 Speaker 2: who senses they may already be drifting a bit, and 627 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: maybe they feel hurried, or maybe they feel isolated, or 628 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 2: maybe they feel kind of disordered. I wonder if you 629 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 2: could just sort of speak as a friend, as a coach, 630 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 2: as a pastor type to such a listener, what might 631 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 2: they do next? 632 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 1: Oh? Alan, I would say to that person, Praise God, 633 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: do you realize it? That's amazing. The alternative of pretending 634 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: you're not drifting, I would almost want to speak more 635 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: to those people, because that is actually more dangerous. If 636 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: you hear this and are like, yeah, I probably have 637 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: nothing in my life that I need to change or 638 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: adapter adjust, I pretty much am nailing it right now, 639 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: I would say danger, danger, danger. And the alternative for 640 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,919 Speaker 1: those who realize they're drifting, I would say, you said 641 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 1: it earlier today, Salvation has come to this house, Like great, 642 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: go back to the unlimited mercy of God, go back 643 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: to the grace that we have in Jesus, and then 644 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: don't just know about this, figure out what do we 645 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: need to do to change? What do we need to 646 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: do to again the analogy of drift. You're in that boat. 647 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: You just looked up and you realize I'm not on track. 648 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: Refocus on that destination, grab that or and today what 649 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: do you need to do to get on track? And 650 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: that's where again, the grace is never ending, the invitation 651 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: to look up again is never ending, and the invitation 652 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: today what can we do today to make sure our 653 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: lives are in alignment with what we believe that ultimate 654 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: mission is of our lives? And may God give you 655 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: the strength and courage and clarity of destination that I 656 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: think helps us live and serve on mission. 657 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 2: Well, that is so good and so again today my 658 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,760 Speaker 2: guest has been Peter Grier and we've been talking about 659 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 2: his book How Leaders Lose Their Way. Peter, it's been 660 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 2: such a pleasure to have this conversation. 661 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: Thanks so enjoyed it. Thanks Ellen. 662 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Unhurry Living podcast. To 663 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 2: learn more about us, visit Unhurriedliving dot com. In the 664 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 2: show notes, you'll find helpful links and information about our partner, 665 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 2: Live Audio, and all of their other faith centered podcasts.